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darkrune
07-19-2008, 09:25 AM
What is yours, and does it really matter?

lauhon
07-19-2008, 09:39 AM
My main a lvl 16 Warforged Barb (capped)....has 573 hps unbuffed and with rage clicky...madstone rage...inherent rage.....and all the other buffs...(false life, bard songs, mass aid, etc..etc) can get over 700 hps...WITHOUT a 3rd tier shroud item (+25 more hps)....

And with a good sorc/wizzy with repair/reconstruct spells....heck by the time my red bar is down to 1/2 way..i'm still over 300 hps...which some toons have fully healed up...

yeah my AC is at best 30-35 all buffed up....and i get hit more than someone with 60 AC...but I can TAKE a hit or 2...before I mop up on the mob that is beating on me...125% fort so crits are not a prob....I don't have to worry about getting critted from a caster for 600 hps....

AC for a barb is not an issue, IMHO, if you can get your HP's up there and DEAL a bunch of damage....you'll be able to dish out massive damage....at the same time...TAKE a bunch of damage...before you get into hp trouble...

Just my .02 cents

Uberforged

hydra_ex
07-19-2008, 09:54 AM
Dont have a barb, but its impossible to get a half-decent ac on them anyways if you dont use a shield :)

In order for your ac to be decent without using a shield, you must either take a monk level (which you can't), or have a high DEX.

P.S. Don't you dare use a shield

lauhon
07-19-2008, 10:12 AM
shield?? barb??

huh? what is this concept?

never heard of such a thing....barbs are able to use shileds???

j/k....i know they can...but if you do....well...might as well roll up a fighter...

THF. ITHF, GTHF...is the way to go with a barb...bring on the greataxes and such!!

Uberforged

darkrune
07-19-2008, 11:01 AM
yeah my lvl 12 has just under 400hp and also the 125% HFort so not too worried about it just wanted some other opinions for end game

Samadhi
07-19-2008, 11:15 AM
1) Barbarians do not have to be THF or TWF. Why? Heavy Picks. With expanded crit ranges, they turn a heavy pick into a weapon with a good crit multiplier into a murdering machine. My barbarian is dual spec'd - but I usually only pull out the two-handers for raid bosses.

2) AC can help - just not always. I never built my barbarian expecting the AC to matter, but from watching my combat log and generally just carrying a shield - much to my surprise there are times that it does. Whenever I see "_____ misses you" 3-4 times in a row - chances are its not just a 1. (This is just with +5 armor, +5 shield, +4 protection, madstone, nothing special or built for AC)

3) DR - High DR is one of the trademarks of a barb; and building for an intimidate/DR machine works very well. Once again, sure it's situational. but it is highly effective.

Hope this helps shed some additional views on the subject.

Selinius
07-19-2008, 11:55 AM
A barb with a shield? Hmm, the class that has the largest hit dice and the focus on getting ****ed off and beating anything to a bloody pulp is going to strap on a shield and try to get an AC worth anything? A barb in end game content that is using a shield in active combat might as well go roll a fighter. If 1 pick is worth using, then 2 wold be better. A barb is all offensive, any misses they see in the combat log should either be from the mob rolling a 1, or the miss chance from the blur or displacement spell.

Borror0
07-19-2008, 12:25 PM
Heavy Picks. With expanded crit ranges, they turn a heavy pick into a weapon with a good crit multiplier into a murdering machine.

Khopesh is still doing more damage than Heavy picks...


AC can help - just not always. I never built my barbarian expecting the AC to matter, but from watching my combat log and generally just carrying a shield - much to my surprise there are times that it does.

When running VoN, DQ or Titan, it does. Otherwise, no, it doesn't.

baddax
07-19-2008, 01:02 PM
barbarian ac is an OxyMoron.

Depravity
07-19-2008, 01:20 PM
Khopesh is still doing more damage than Heavy picks...


With crit rage II, the crit profile is pretty similar -
Khopesh - 6 crit range x 2 "extra hits" on crit = 12 extra swings worth of damage on 20 swings
Pick - 4 crit range x 3 "extra hits" on crit = 12 extra swings worth of damage on 20 swings

Only extra damage I can see would be from basic damage dice, and a fully raged barb shouldn't care all that much about a couple of points.

Khopesh has the edge for smite and the like, or any "on crit" effect, but a pierce specced barb could just use a rapier to the same effect anyway.

Oh yeah, picks save you a feat and can come with puncturing.

Shield does drop your DPS down, (substantially, somewhere around 33-40% iirc) but if you can kill something without taking as much damage doing it, your efficiency in terms of resources used per enemy beaten down goes up. Most clerics I've talked to prefer the latter. Playstyle difference, really.

adamkatt
07-19-2008, 01:24 PM
My lvl 7 has 9 ac! I wait for the real tank(like borror's 63 aced tank) to get aggro first. Double Raged 5 ac!

Borror0
07-19-2008, 01:28 PM
Only extra damage I can see would be from basic damage dice, and a fully raged barb shouldn't care all that much about a couple of points.

It's 2.2 points of damage. It's a lot.

Tulsa_Doom
07-19-2008, 01:32 PM
First off 125% fort isnt any better than a 100%percent. AC matters in the sense that barbs running around with a 12 ac are harder to heal than ones with 30 or so. In that sense it matters. Cursory glance at some of the posts started talking about dps, not really issue or question I think.

gamblerjoe
07-19-2008, 02:00 PM
another thing to consider is efficiency against trash mobs vs. effectiveness against tougher mobs. the standard power gaming philosophy is to build toons around fighting tougher mobs, and gear themselves to be able to adapt to more situations. The current standard is to weild 2 handed weapons that deal a lot of dps (or 2WF), carry a madstone shield for blocking and disease, poison, fear immunity items and other stuff u only use in the absence of a cleric or buffing mage.

another decition you have to make when building and gearing up a toon is how much of a sp sponge do you want to be. its up to you to decide. if your dps is top-notch, good clerics dont mind (even if you're a robot.)

no matter what, as a barbarian you must have good dps, a lot of hit points, and decent DR. if you want high ac, and are willing to sacrifice other things, thats fine, iv seen it work good. just know that in end game content, you will need to at least be prepared to pull out a 2 hander for the mobs that dont miss high ac.

My personal preference is 575+ hp, high DR, and **** AC.

Vua
07-19-2008, 02:06 PM
First off 125% fort isnt any better than a 100%percent. AC matters in the sense that barbs running around with a 12 ac are harder to heal than ones with 30 or so. In that sense it matters. Cursory glance at some of the posts started talking about dps, not really issue or question I think.

How are Barbs with a 12 AC harder to heal than ones with a 30? Once you hit gianthold and beyond there is no difference between 30 and 12. You are getting hit on everything except a 1? Actually most will tell you there is no difference between a 40 and 10 at that point, though maybe a slight difference on normal.

DragonKiller
07-19-2008, 03:37 PM
What's AC??? :eek:

I do not have a pure barb, just because of my play style. However I have a 12/3/1 Barb/Rogue/Wiz and he can self buff his AC to right about 40 (Which is about equal to a 1 AC in things like the Shroud, Hound, and other high end stuff). It's nice when playing the lower level stuff (like going back through to get queen ready, and the like), but AC doesn't really seem to matter much once you hit the giant hold unless you're able to get above a 50 unbuffed.

So my little froggie has 410 hp's with out raged, and with self rage and rage pot is right at 500, with out much DR unfortunately, but he has evasion and a pretty good reflex save so that helps. Plus he can use wands to heal him self, get rid of things like curse, and self blur, shield, resist, and prot himself. Plus can use other wands in certain situations.

End result is he might take a little more damage, and not quite dish out as much DPS as a pure barb (but it's real close), but he is MUCH less of a drain on a party's resources, and he can get almost any trap in the game (and there's not a chest lock he can't open :D).

So... AC and a barb isn't REAL important, but it's at least worth putting some effort into. Specially if you are counting on someone else to heal/repair you when the mob is dead.

Niclos
07-19-2008, 04:22 PM
Well honestly everyone is saying about the same thing and still not really anawering your question. The only reason I can think of a barb having a poor armor class is starting their base dex at 8 and wearing robes. In special circumstances I have had my barb up to 49 ac no shield, 58 with one. That was pre level 16 cap and unsure what I could get it to now. To answer your second part of the question. Does it matter? I will say no. Prime example pit fiend. I told a bard and a ranger grant me some ac ill shield up ill be above 50 AC raged. Was i getting hit less? Yes Was I still having fireballs smash my face and wear my protections right down? YES... From almost all ac builds ive grouped with they will say the same, its the spells that hit me. Running with the devils is a prime example of this. Except for the orthons and devils... As for the others that say if you want to sword and board just build a fighter I have yet to encounter a fighter that can easily obtain 50 strength and con and have an extra 2 points added to their critical on any weapon type. Another plus to getting hit alot and being able to manage agro easily is witha few key guard items , Shields and armor to raid loot and crafted ones are awesome. You can deal 3d6 or more damage every time your hit. Remember you are there for dps and meat shielding. Thanks

Spisey
07-19-2008, 04:43 PM
My evasion barb stays around 23 ac but I have learned to supplement shroud guard items into my wearables to help punish anything that hits me. Using DUST 2 and working on lightning strike. Killing end raid bosses on a disintegrate is a wonderful thing for just taking a hit you were already gonna absorb! :)

Thrudh
07-21-2008, 11:52 AM
No one will expect a pure barbarian to have a high AC...

However, it's certainly possible to get a decent AC if you want... especially if you multi-class a little...

And AC can still be useful, even at end-game... 45-50 actually helps quite a bit against the trash mobs... Nothing wrong with pulling out a shield and a vorpal weapon at times.. Now, the boss monsters... you better be prepared to dish out some serious DPS, so put that shield away...

AC is also useful when doing the older raid pre-reqs... having a decent AC (40+) means you can solo them (or short-man without a cleric) without spending a fortune in potions...

My multi-class barbarian freak (10/4/2 barbarian/fighter/ranger) can switch between intimitank role, turtled up with CE on and a tower shield, or all-out DPS with PA on and a Mineral II greataxe....

I'm not doing as much damage as a pure barbarian who doesn't care about AC (because of the crit range enhancements I'm missing) but I'm much more flexible... and I have no problems heading into any quest without a cleric.

Thrudh
07-21-2008, 11:59 AM
So how to get an "okay" AC as a barbarian?

10 base
13 Mithral Full Plate
9 Reaver Tower Shield
3 Dexterity
5 Protection
3 Barkskin potion

43 AC without much effort (well +5 Mithral Full Plate can be hard to find :))

(I'm assuming a single level of fighter here... You'll have to use Mithral Breast Plate, and have a higher dex otherwise)

Borror0
07-21-2008, 12:17 PM
So how to get an "okay" AC as a barbarian?

So, not enough to matter that much on Normal, eh?

Talon_Moonshadow
07-21-2008, 12:50 PM
There's several things that bothers me about these posts.

I know that the best defense is a good offense.....they can't hurt you if they are dead.

But I also know AC does matter! How much? I'm not sure.

But I have a weak Brb 11.....not huge DPS.....TWF most of the time. I do wear armor....but AC is not great TWF.
I go into Cabal......not sure which difficulty, but I think it was elite...
I get my butt handed to me real fast.
So I whip out my shield........instant difference! Very, very noticable. Now the trash mobs are not beating me up nearly as bad.
The casters are still a problem, but not the average guy with a blade.

I also know that I do not get hit every time by Orthons or Devils outside in the Vale........the one's inside the quests are tougher, and the ones in the high lvl raids are very very mean!

But unless they hit you an a 2 or better, I think AC matters.
How much AC? Not sure.......
Exactly when can they hit an AC of 30, 40, 50........or inbetween on a 2 or better?.....I don't know.
But for 90% of the content in the game, AC matters IMO......and I've seen it work.

A bigger question though, is how much resources to spend on AC?
I don't know that either.
It is certainly a balance.....you want as much DPS as you can get, but you also want as much AC as you can get.
Having a couple different configurations for your gear might be an option.

A good shield for shieldblocking with your back to a wall, whille drinking pots can be effective in many quests.

I'm pretty sure I used that tactic in Rainbow elite recently.......the DR might have been more impartant than the AC, but it helped none the less.