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View Full Version : my only real issue with monks after 7 lvls



Onubis
06-25-2008, 09:36 AM
After playing a monk for 7 lvls, so far i only have 1 issue and that issue is with kamas and qstaffs. Im wondering if the devs plan on fixing it.

When monks use kamas, they're made to use TWF style. This should not be forced on monks. They do get the ability to flurry kamas and Qstaffs if they so choose. I shouldnt be made to waste a feat on TWF just to dual wield kamas and then only get like 1 or 2 attacks with my off hand.

Qstaffs are a finessable weapon, and like kamas, are allowed to be flurried.

if a player wants to make a TWF monk since it has been researched to be a faster rate of attack in another thread, allow for flurry to be turned on and off, so a player can TWF instead.

so devs, plan on doing any of this?

bobbryan2
06-25-2008, 09:41 AM
You're sorta intermixing what you think is happening with what is actually happening here, and confusing D&D implementation and DDO implementation of flurry.

Flurry of blows is on all the time, and is a static buff in DDO, provided you are using Q-staff, kamas, or fists. In DDO, it doesn't give any additional attacks, it merely gives you a bonus to your To Hit.

Using a kama doesn't immediately put you into TWF or anything else. You're getting flurry of blows whether or not you're using 1 kama or 2, which in DDO is a bonus to your BAB.

Varr
06-25-2008, 09:49 AM
I dont show qstaff to be a finessable weapon. Did I miss a change in the game that has not be updated on the compendium?

Darth_Sizzle
06-25-2008, 10:01 AM
Qstaffs are a finessable weapon, and like kamas, are allowed to be flurried.

Q-Staffs are not finessable in DDO.

Shining Crescents may be finessable (description says "Sickle, Light Weapon") but I'm not sure (only have it on my STR based Pally).

Edit: If the Shining Crescent is finessable it's also possible Monks wouldn't be able to use it with flurry (since it's considered a Sickle).

Onubis
06-25-2008, 10:21 AM
to clear up what i am saying:

flurry has nothing to do with finessee unless u choose it to.

my problem with qstaffs is that they are NOT finessable yet, when they should be.

and as for flurry itself, I do get more attacks with flurry then i do using kamas. its noticable in the animation and in the combat log. currently the monk uses a kama like any other class (only without needing the feat for it). I should be able to flurry with kamas like i can with my fists.

negative
06-25-2008, 12:55 PM
to clear up what i am saying:

flurry has nothing to do with finessee unless u choose it to.

my problem with qstaffs is that they are NOT finessable yet, when they should be.

and as for flurry itself, I do get more attacks with flurry then i do using kamas. its noticable in the animation and in the combat log. currently the monk uses a kama like any other class (only without needing the feat for it). I should be able to flurry with kamas like i can with my fists.

You're not getting it. Flurry works with unarmed, q-staff, 1-handed kama, and TWF Kama in DDO. It grants a bonus to you BAB, granting your Full BAB instead of 3/4's. That is all it does. It does not grant bonus attacks ala PnP (the feat is completely different). The extra backfist animation you see at level one is not actually an attack. Flurry does not turn off when you TWF Kama. Unarmed and 1-handed Kama have the same number of attacks at more or less the same attack speed. TWF Kama works the same as TWF for any other Full BAB class, and with Greater TWF will grant twice as many attacks as 1-handed or unarmed.

Citymorg
06-25-2008, 01:14 PM
You're not getting it. Flurry works with unarmed, q-staff, 1-handed kama, and TWF Kama in DDO. It grants a bonus to you BAB, granting your Full BAB instead of 3/4's. That is all it does. It does not grant bonus attacks ala PnP (the feat is completely different). The extra backfist animation you see at level one is not actually an attack. Flurry does not turn off when you TWF Kama. Unarmed and 1-handed Kama have the same number of attacks at more or less the same attack speed. TWF Kama works the same as TWF for any other Full BAB class, and with Greater TWF will grant twice as many attacks as 1-handed or unarmed.

To clarify what he's saying, Flurry of Blows has nothing to do with combat speed. It gives you a plus to-hit when you are using a weapon you can Flurry of Blows with. Therefore, regardless of what animation you are seeing, you are getting the bonus, namely and increase to your to-hit. Secondly, the animations in DDO are notoriously not syncronized to the number of to hit rolls your dice make or appear in your combat log.

Darth_Sizzle
06-27-2008, 09:59 AM
... It does not grant bonus attacks ala PnP (the feat is completely different).

Actually, it kinda does, you get extra attacks due to your increased BaB (as anyone else w the same BaB would)


The extra backfist animation you see at level one is not actually an attack.

Oh? Then why does it give me a damage #?


Unarmed and 1-handed Kama have the same number of attacks at more or less the same attack speed.

Not even close, unarmed fighting is much, much faster = more attacks in the same amount of time vs using a Kama.

Strakeln
06-27-2008, 11:04 AM
Actually, it kinda does, you get extra attacks due to your increased BaB (as anyone else w the same BaB would)I came down here to correct that statement. You are correct.




Oh? Then why does it give me a damage #?Unless your monk is more special than everyone else's, you are imagining this. Try doing just the 1st attack and wrist twist.

Darth_Sizzle
06-27-2008, 11:35 AM
Unless your monk is more special than everyone else's, you are imagining this. Try doing just the 1st attack and wrist twist.

My bad, just logged on and you're right. Makes it "extremely flamboyant" of them to throw in this time wasting maneuver...

bobbryan2
06-27-2008, 12:44 PM
Actually, it kinda does, you get extra attacks due to your increased BaB (as anyone else w the same BaB would)

Umm... no

Extra Attack animations != Extra Attacks per Rnd

More attack animations merely means more attacks at a higher BAB progression, while losing attacks per round. It's not 'kinda' doing the same thing. It's doing the exact opposite.

binnsr
06-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Edit: If the Shining Crescent is finessable it's also possible Monks wouldn't be able to use it with flurry (since it's considered a Sickle).

Since it's coded as a sickle, has anyone tried dual wielding the Shining Crescents? :) Like you, both of mine are on str based characters.

negative
06-27-2008, 01:06 PM
Actually, it kinda does, you get extra attacks due to your increased BaB (as anyone else w the same BaB would).
First, it's not the same thing, as a poster above pointed out. Second, I was specifically making a point to the OP, since he seemed confused that flurry was granting bonus attacks ala PnP. The next sentence in my post says that it grants you full BAB instead of 3/4's. There is no need to confuse that statement by saying anything regarding extra attacks. 3/4 BAB vs. full BAB is what it is and that is all that needs to be said. Explaining that difference is a whole separate conversation.


Oh? Then why does it give me a damage #?.
This looks to already be addressed above. As discussed, there is no damage #.


Not even close, unarmed fighting is much, much faster = more attacks in the same amount of time vs using a Kama.
No, it isn't, once we realize that you were falsely calculating extra attacks in the unarmed chain that simply don't exist. The unarmed chain, as best I can tell and test, attacks at about the same rate, with the same number of attacks, as sword and board, at least up to level 6, which is where my monk is.

I'd love to see, from a level 16 monk, how many attacks you get unarmed (no haste, no wind stance, just your base rate) per minute. I, before I built my monk (on my 15 ranger / 1 fighter), timed (in 2 minute intervals divided in half) how many attacks I got per minute with: q-staff, 1-handed kama, GTWF kama. I'd love to see the attacks per minute of a level 16 monk unarmed to compare (mine is only level 6 so far). My best guess, is it is almost the same as 1-handed kama.

Strakeln
06-27-2008, 01:32 PM
My bad, just logged on and you're right. Makes it "extremely flamboyant" of them to throw in this time wasting maneuver..."Extremely Flamboyant"... lol :D

GlassCannon
06-27-2008, 02:19 PM
I dont show qstaff to be a finessable weapon. Did I miss a change in the game that has not be updated on the compendium?

Apparently you have never wielded a staff IRL.

They are finessable and the rules need to be updated accordingly.

GlassCannon
06-27-2008, 02:20 PM
Since it's coded as a sickle, has anyone tried dual wielding the Shining Crescents? :) Like you, both of mine are on str based characters.

Shining Crescents is coded as a 2-handed weapon, uses Staff animations, and does Slash damage, taking the to-hit bonus from Weapon Finesse if available.

bobbryan2
06-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Apparently you have never wielded a staff IRL.

They are finessable and the rules need to be updated accordingly.

Your complaint is with WotC, not Turbine. In the realm of D&D, quarterstaves are not finessable.