PDA

View Full Version : A Way To Fix "Flagging" For Raids



Amaras
06-24-2008, 04:38 PM
So whats all this about?
*Currently we only have 2 raids that we must "Re-Flag" for each time. Most people won't play them because the re-flagging is not worth the poor selection of loot compared to the higher level raids.

Why can't they be like the Reaver?
*The developers don't want to "ruin" the early development of the game, Even though the player base loves the new way of flagging.

What can we do to fix this?
*In order to "fix" this we should provide a method for Higher Level players to re-flag permanently for the raids. Offering the ability to have a "permanent" flag when you complete all the pre-reqs for the Raid on Elite.

Why does this fix it?
*This fixes it because the developers get their way of having lower level character from not having parties to run with for flagging and it also allows these unpopular raids to be run more by the busy player base.

How can I offer suggestions on how to further develop this method?
*Post in this thread, Express your ideas.

Strakeln
06-24-2008, 05:08 PM
Delving Boots
Delving Suit
Sword of Shadows

Sandstorm Glasses
Seal of the Earth
Cloak of the Zephyr
Lion Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II

Hardly a "poor selection of loot", even when compared with higher level raids.

I'm not against changing the flagging mechanism, but give the loot its due!

Amaras
06-24-2008, 05:50 PM
Delving Boots
Delving Suit
Sword of Shadows

Sandstorm Glasses
Seal of the Earth
Cloak of the Zephyr
Lion Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II

Hardly a "poor selection of loot", even when compared with higher level raids.

I'm not against changing the flagging mechanism, but give the loot its due!

I am in no way saying that the loot it "poor" I am saying that the process of re-flagging, finding a group that is flagged, and completing the quest is not worth 90% of the loot that is on those loot tables. Considering you have to do the raid on elite for even a remote chance that someone in your party will get the loot that you are looking for.

PhoenixRajoNight
06-25-2008, 02:21 AM
Trust me getting rid of the re-flagging is fully supported by myself. von 2-3 can be a pain in the but to rerun all the time and chain of flames makes it a pain to run dq flagging, because peeps get lost all the time, other than that the reflag isnt a big deal, but its still time to remove the reflag neways.

Lcdr_Swizzle
06-25-2008, 06:56 AM
If us level 16's want to re-run them, we can ...

Making getting the whole enchilada on elite a permanent re-flag is a great compromise, which means it's a very, very good idea.

I was in favor of making "once-flagged always flagged" the way to go, until I read this post.

:)

grimblackblade
06-25-2008, 08:21 AM
I'll take perm. flagging for those quests no matter what form it takes.

Seeing that the devs do want to help and often do it through special items:
- pendent of time
- voice of the master
- that cleansing item at 20 shroud completions

How about a new raid item in each of those quests that when in your inventory you can go right into dq1 or von 5?

Downside would be that, like the Reaver, once someone has one and continue to get them they will be reassigned to others who don't, therefore making them easier to get.

A variation of that would be to give them out at 20, but I think that is way to many, the reason I thought as part of the loot table would be better.

Gennerik
06-25-2008, 08:43 AM
I'd prefer not to have more items cluttering up my inventory. At the very least, you shouldn't have to re-flag on a quest series once you stop getting XP from running the Raid on normal, or maybe 4 levels above it, since most people don't want a 50% XP hit that actually need to run the quest. That would mean Vault of Night would not have to be run by level 16s, and the Demon Queen would either very soon (next cap increase) or currently not require level 16 characters to re-run the prerequisites. I know my level 16 melee can run through all the VoNs solo, and most casters probably can as well, so that points to not needing the prerequisites anymore for those characters.

Don't get me wrong, I really like both quest chains that you have to do, but I'd rather not get tired of running them on the characters that can run them now when I've got characters that will need to run them soon.

oogly54
06-25-2008, 09:09 AM
A more simple solution is to do what the DEVs did in Offering of Blood. Add a rare piece of named loot that everyone wants to the quests and those quest will be ran so many times, reflagging will not be an issue. I have ran offering of blood more times since they added the new spectral gloves than I did since its release. (I have ran it 40 times this week) I have blood bowls coming out my arse.

Zaodon
06-25-2008, 09:21 AM
Here is my idea:

- You need to run VoN 1-4 once per character. After that, Barron d'Kundarak's dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat VoN 5+6.

- You need to run Chains/Spiral/WizKing once per character. After that, the genie dude dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat DQ Raid.

Ta da!

Problem solved.

SneakThief
06-25-2008, 10:03 AM
Here is my idea:

- You need to run VoN 1-4 once per character. After that, Barron d'Kundarak's dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat VoN 5+6.

- You need to run Chains/Spiral/WizKing once per character. After that, the genie dude dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat DQ Raid.

Ta da!

Problem solved.

No kidding right?

For DQ this shouldnt be an issue at all since DQ 1 and DQ 2 are thier own quest chain.
Vons 5-6, however are not on thier own chain, so they devs would have to make them thier own chain to do that.

It would be soooooooo nice though.

Amaras
06-25-2008, 03:49 PM
Here is my idea:

- You need to run VoN 1-4 once per character. After that, Barron d'Kundarak's dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat VoN 5+6.

- You need to run Chains/Spiral/WizKing once per character. After that, the genie dude dialog has a "Repeat this quest" option to repeat DQ Raid.

Ta da!

Problem solved.

And then people accidentally reset their quest line and have to do it over again.

I believe just a "permanent flag" would be better.

GlassCannon
06-26-2008, 04:33 AM
And then people accidentally reset their quest line and have to do it over again.

I believe just a "permanent flag" would be better.

I still run the quests for XP on my characters. I do want a Permanent Flag, however. I don't like excessive and meaningless repetition just to open a Raid again.

Hendrik
06-26-2008, 08:18 AM
Thought this horse was dead enough and didn't have to start beating it, again.

There is no 'fix' for something that is not broken.

There are NO PLANS to change the flagging for Vault of Night or Demon Queen.

Instant gratification can be found in;

Titan
Hound
Reaver

Sue_Dark
06-26-2008, 08:30 AM
So whats all this about?
*Currently we only have 2 raids that we must "Re-Flag" for each time. Most people won't play them because the re-flagging is not worth the poor selection of loot compared to the higher level raids.

Why can't they be like the Reaver?
*The developers don't want to "ruin" the early development of the game, Even though the player base loves the new way of flagging.

What can we do to fix this?
*In order to "fix" this we should provide a method for Higher Level players to re-flag permanently for the raids. Offering the ability to have a "permanent" flag when you complete all the pre-reqs for the Raid on Elite.

Why does this fix it?
*This fixes it because the developers get their way of having lower level character from not having parties to run with for flagging and it also allows these unpopular raids to be run more by the busy player base.

How can I offer suggestions on how to further develop this method?
*Post in this thread, Express your ideas.


FAVOR!

Get to tier 3 favor for the respective house/entity and get the raid perma-flagged. Granted some of these places may not have enuff quests to get to tier 3, but that just means they (Devs) would need to add content! Win/Win! :)

Sue_Dark
06-26-2008, 08:31 AM
Thought this horse was dead enough and didn't have to start beating it, again.

There is no 'fix' for something that is not broken.

There are NO PLANS to change the flagging for Vault of Night or Demon Queen.

Instant gratification can be found in;

Titan
Hound
Reaver
and Vision

Corrected.

Amaras
06-26-2008, 09:18 AM
Thought this horse was dead enough and didn't have to start beating it, again.

There is no 'fix' for something that is not broken.

There are NO PLANS to change the flagging for Vault of Night or Demon Queen.

Instant gratification can be found in;

Titan
Hound
Reaver
and Vision

So you believe that all improvements for the game should never be done either? Ok, lets revert every single "Mod" of the game and go back to the standard install. Dungeons and Dungeons with a level cap of 10, and a billion bugs that were fixed by suggestions like these to the game.

moorewr
06-26-2008, 09:30 AM
Why set yourself against any changes? Why are you FOR re-running the quests each time? Do you think it serves a positive purpose?


Thought this horse was dead enough and didn't have to start beating it, again.

There is no 'fix' for something that is not broken.

There are NO PLANS to change the flagging for Vault of Night or Demon Queen.

Instant gratification can be found in;

Titan
Hound
Reaver

oogly54
06-26-2008, 09:41 AM
If they create a method for bypassing pre-requs for these quests, it should not be as simple as running them all on elite once. Those quests are good quests, that the DEVs spent a lot of time an effort creating. They do not want us running them once and never again. Like I suggested, they can either force us to run them to run the raid or they can make us WANT to run them with loot. I would be opposed to instant no reflag, but would not be opposed to the idea of after you have reached your first twenty runs, like to end reward system, you then no longer need to run them. That way each pre quest was used as content equal to the effort that was put into them. We all want new and more content, now we are going to bypass 2/3s of it after one time through. Let's be reasonable and not expect the DEVs to let us off the hook that easily. The new quest that do not require re flagging have reasons to run them. Gianthold Torr had the scales and named loot. Orchard had tome and shield pieces as well as named loot. The vale had ingredients, although sorely missed out on named items. The new raids have no prequests, and many feel there was a lack of content with this update. (reading we needed prequests) Don't ask for this simple method and be mad when you are bored two weeks after updates come out.

Off topic and you can call me a fanboi, but I am really enjoying this new realease and I havnt even made a monk yet. I love the new rares spreadout amounts old quests. Both of the new raids (two was sweet) are good fun and one a serious challenge. Go in there will an unperpared, weak pug and you will get pwned. Nice job DEVs.

Dexxaan
06-26-2008, 09:50 AM
Although I find reflagging Tedious I cannot agree that all raids should become timed Loot Runs like The Reaver and it´s most recent replacement The Hound.

Dragon? VON 1-4 takes less than 1 Hour (Even with a PUG); My love of VON 3 makes me want to get flagged with only a lil griping in VON 2 (Which I have issues soloing on some toons)

Demon Queen? Chains takes 16 Minutes and is soloable if you must; Wizard King (depending on luck with finding him) takes another 15-20 minutes and Offering takes 8 minutes if all know what they´re doing. ATDQ Takes about 30 (assuming you DON´t split up and cleear & solo the different Tunnels) So all in all DQ takes about 1H 15 and the Raid itself less than 10.

If we ever were granted Insta-Flag status, the lack of game-quest knowledge which is already abysmal will discover new depths....please think of the consequences of what you are asking for..... easy and Nice is always of Instant Gratification, but knowing your stuff and "Having" to endure some things makes you a better player and also keeps the riff raff away (to a certain degree) from the rest.

moorewr
06-26-2008, 09:58 AM
My model is "stay flagged for the pre-raid."

If you were permanently flagged for VoN 5, ADQ 1, the Tor, etc. as part 1 raids, you'd still have a meaty little adventure to get you through to your loot run. I will say that the approach march for the Hound and Vision approximates this.. (and at least you get some reward for the run out and a clear warning if you are in a shaky PUG).

juniorpfactors
06-26-2008, 10:17 AM
i think the solution is actually simple....like the shroud...after 20 you could take a cleansing

after 20 on dragon, DQ a "cleansing from having to every flag again" or take the item you need or a tome you need


your option


JRP

Grimtooth333
06-26-2008, 10:23 AM
I agree remove the constant re-doing of the flagging quests for Vons' and the DQ.

Hendrik
06-26-2008, 10:38 AM
Why set yourself against any changes? Why are you FOR re-running the quests each time? Do you think it serves a positive purpose?

Sorry, I just agree with the DEVELOPERS - there are no plans to change the flagging mechanism for these pair of Raids.

They have said they are NOT making any changes to the flagging for these two raids. End of story. End of line. Horse is dead Jim. Move on.

No matter how many times people want to bring this up, not a thing has changed except for those posting the request.

I am all for changes, but when the people that make these changes have stated they are NOT making them, kind of a moot point then.

Aspenor
06-26-2008, 10:40 AM
Sorry, I just agree with the DEVELOPERS - there are no plans to change the flagging mechanism for these pair of Raids.

They have said they are NOT making any changes to the flagging for these two raids. End of story. End of line. Horse is dead Jim. Move on.

No matter how many times people want to bring this up, not a thing has changed except for those posting the request.

I am all for changes, but when the people that make these changes have stated they are NOT making them, kind of a moot point then.

To be picky, they stated there was no PLANS to change them. Plans are subject to change.

moorewr
06-26-2008, 10:44 AM
Sorry, I just agree with the DEVELOPERS - there are no plans to change the flagging mechanism for these pair of Raids.

They have said they are NOT making any changes to the flagging for these two raids. End of story. End of line. Horse is dead Jim. Move on.

No matter how many times people want to bring this up, not a thing has changed except for those posting the request.

I am all for changes, but when the people that make these changes have stated they are NOT making them, kind of a moot point then.

..but why do you agree with them? What's your reasoning? Leave aside predicting whether they will be changed. That is a moot point too.

Hendrik
06-26-2008, 10:49 AM
To be picky, they stated there was no PLANS to change them. Plans are subject to change.

Very true Asp. Didn't mention 'plans' this post - thought I had in my first one.

Everytime I see another 'fix' flagging post, all I can think of is some kids in the family truckster going, 'are we there yet? are we there yet?'

No matter how many times it is asked, nothing has changed since we were told some time ago, no plans to change flagging.

Hendrik
06-26-2008, 10:56 AM
..but why do you agree with them? What's your reasoning? Leave aside predicting whether they will be changed. That is a moot point too.

1. Because it takes hardly anytime at all to re-run for flagging. One hour for the Von's, about the same, if not less for DQ.

2. This is the way they were designed, good or bad, thats the way they are. Why should they be changed to suit an impatient/instant gratification playstyle?

3. We all can guess how intricate the code is and any small change can have drastic ramifications. Why take the chance to screw up all Raids, re-patch, and the whole ****-storm that would follow, just so some can farm a pair of Raids. People got spoiled rotten with the flagging for Reaver.

IF there is any solution I would suggest to allow, once again, us to hold on to many of the items for flagging on the DQ. Return them to the non-exclusive status they once had. That would ease the sting, somewhat.

Guaire
06-26-2008, 11:17 AM
I have blood bowls coming out my arse.
:eek:

Consult a physician man.

:D

moorewr
06-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Thanks. Those (in particular 1 & 2) are decent reasons to argue from. #3 is their problem, not mine. :)

I do like your idea with the DQ items.. maybe adding a collectible to VoN and letting both sets be trade-able, and a turn-in as an alternative to being on the right step of the chain would be a good compromise...


1. Because it takes hardly anytime at all to re-run for flagging. One hour for the Von's, about the same, if not less for DQ.

2. This is the way they were designed, good or bad, thats the way they are. Why should they be changed to suit an impatient/instant gratification playstyle?

3. We all can guess how intricate the code is and any small change can have drastic ramifications. Why take the chance to screw up all Raids, re-patch, and the whole ****-storm that would follow, just so some can farm a pair of Raids. People got spoiled rotten with the flagging for Reaver.

IF there is any solution I would suggest to allow, once again, us to hold on to many of the items for flagging on the DQ. Return them to the non-exclusive status they once had. That would ease the sting, somewhat.

SneakThief
06-26-2008, 02:23 PM
If they create a method for bypassing pre-requs for these quests, it should not be as simple as running them all on elite once. Those quests are good quests, that the DEVs spent a lot of time an effort creating. They do not want us running them once and never again. Like I suggested, they can either force us to run them to run the raid or they can make us WANT to run them with loot. I would be opposed to instant no reflag, but would not be opposed to the idea of after you have reached your first twenty runs, like to end reward system, you then no longer need to run them. That way each pre quest was used as content equal to the effort that was put into them. We all want new and more content, now we are going to bypass 2/3s of it after one time through. Let's be reasonable and not expect the DEVs to let us off the hook that easily. The new quest that do not require re flagging have reasons to run them. Gianthold Torr had the scales and named loot. Orchard had tome and shield pieces as well as named loot. The vale had ingredients, although sorely missed out on named items. The new raids have no prequests, and many feel there was a lack of content with this update. (reading we needed prequests) Don't ask for this simple method and be mad when you are bored two weeks after updates come out.


My problem with that argument is this:
Right now, for many people, Vons 1-4 get run at appropriate levels because they are FUN and good XP. They often get run much more than the raid(5-6) does at, appropriate levels, as people help each other flag.

Then many people, like me, get out of that level range and dont ever run them or that raid again. If I didnt have to run a bunch of level 8-10 quests on my level 16 characters, at least the RAID would still get run. As it stands right now, even the RAID is content ("that the DEVs spent a lot of time and effort creating"), that is being not played.

DQ is the same. I can only ZERG through the pre-reqs ad nauseum so many time before I just flat out refuse to run them or that raid. So I dont run DQ anymore and that content ("that the DEVs spent a lot of time and effort creating") gets neglected.

People ask me to help with these raids all the time, but my response is always the same, "not flagged". When people wont flag, it makes it that much harder for the people that haven't run it to get groups, meaning MORE people wont be running the content ("that the DEVs spent a lot of time and effort creating").

The solution is not to force people to run level inappropraite quests. The solution is to create quests that people WANT to run. VONS are are BLAST, at the appropriate levels. DQS are fun, at the appropriate levels. Right now, all the current system is doing is limiting the people playing the content, not encouraging it.

miceelf88
06-26-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't find the "well, then people wouldn't run those quests at all" argument all that compelling. There are a whole host of decent, great and not-so-great quests that the devs worked hard over that aren't prerequisites for any raid. Some of them get run a lot and some of them don't- depending largely on the fun factor and the fair factor. The VONS quests are pretty good. They'd still get run a fair bit. It's just that people running them would be doing so voluntarily.

JD2134
06-27-2008, 12:30 AM
This was brought up around mod 6.1 or so. And the devs basiclly said. We are stuck with it. They dont want to take down two raids for what could be a month or so just to alter them so it a single reflag.

While i agree that the dragon and demon queen should be changed to a single reflag like titan, reaver, abbot, shroud, and the open of the new raid area. i think we never see it as i suspect that ddo staffing level are not what they where.

Amaras
06-27-2008, 01:15 PM
This was brought up around mod 6.1 or so. And the devs basiclly said. We are stuck with it. They dont want to take down two raids for what could be a month or so just to alter them so it a single reflag.


In all honesty In a months time how many times do you see a PUG listing for the queen raid? how many times do they not fill or fail horribly do to only have 1-3 people join and they decide to solo it on elite? I've probably seen 1-2 this month.

Hendrik
06-27-2008, 01:59 PM
In all honesty In a months time how many times do you see a PUG listing for the queen raid? how many times do they not fill or fail horribly do to only have 1-3 people join and they decide to solo it on elite? I've probably seen 1-2 this month.

A GREAT many on Sarlona just in the past week alone.

DQ flagging is NOT stopping people from hitting up that raid or the Dragon for that matter. Flagging didn't stop people from Raiding long ago, not stopping anyone today, and will not stop anyone next week.

People have become lazy and spoiled and want the end without having to go through the means to get there.

Issip
06-27-2008, 02:02 PM
Delving Boots
Delving Suit
Sword of Shadows

Sandstorm Glasses
Seal of the Earth
Cloak of the Zephyr
Lion Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II

Hardly a "poor selection of loot", even when compared with higher level raids.

I'm not against changing the flagging mechanism, but give the loot its due!

Don't forget the Bramblecasters!

I have posted to several of these epsecially concerning the demon queen because eliminating the flag requirements and making it a loot run like the reaver would massively impact the game. Every toon the server would pyke the queen every 3 days until they have most or all of the loot listed. If every toon had perma-blur (cloak), perma-true seeing (goggles), greater false life and 3 charges of stoneskin per day (seal of earth), greater spearblock (bramblecasters), immunity to fear (lion-headed belt buckle), greater spell pen 6 (Torc), well there wouldn't be a whole lot of great loot you really need out there. My toons have made a killing in there, and taking an hour to re-flag is not a huge inconvenience for that loot list. The raid itself takes 5 minutes, it's even quicker than the reaver. Taking away the flag would be enormously negative to the game and would undermine 90% of the good loot in the game as top quality loot for almost every character slot would be essentially given away for free. I'm not sure there would be enough left in the game to bother with (1000x the work to get a slightly better item from somewhere else).

This is a terrible idea, always has been and always will be. I think the devs know this and won't change it, if they cave to the crybabies and let everyone pyke the queen every 3 days in a 5 minute run until everyone has all that loot, the game will be ruined, period.

Get off your butt and go do the pre-reqs, if you just wnat uber loot without having to do anything at all to get it, then try progress quest, it is the game for you.

BTW, those who refuse to run this raid due to horror of spending an hour re-flagging suit yourself. I have the bramblecasters on 3 toons now, you have no idea how great they are until you've had them on - mix it with heavy fort and elemental resist and you are nearly immune to arrows. I LOVE the sandstorm goggles on my fighter, I love my torc of Raiyum, I love my lion-headed belt buckle that I keep on my sorc so he doesn't get scared, and I don't at all mind reflagging every time I take a crack at that loot table. Stay out of the raid - too much work, how could anything be worth a whole hour of game time?