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MrCow
06-23-2008, 07:52 PM
Ok, I think I've had my fill of "How do you handle these darned beholders?" threads over the past couple of weeks so I decided to take a moment and explain the magical properties of a beholder.

This is a picture of a creature that strikes fear into the hearts of many adventures, fleshy and warforged alike (although mostly fleshies).

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/BeholderPosing.png

A scary sight indeed, especially when they are assaulted by a rainbow of colors. Many say "DOOM! Melee them and you will likely die!". Depending on how you approach a beholder, that just may be true. A beholder, as deadly as it is, suffers from the fact that eyestalks are only so tall so they can only fire in certain directions. A beholder can eyebeam 1 of 10 effects (and this is specifically for living beholders, not those crazy ghostly doomspheres).



Fired from the front of a beholder:
Disintegration
Enervation
Telekinesis
Beholder Antimagic Effect (from the main eye)

Fired from the right of a beholder:
Hold Monster
Inflict Moderate Wounds

Fired from the back of a beholder:
Finger of Death
Scorching Ray
Bestow Curse

Fired from the left of a beholder:
Flesh to Stone
Slow


And as they say, a picture is worth... well... a picture is pretty so here you go :D

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/BeholderAnatomy.png



Now, most people who attack a beholder gripe about 3 main things:

"I have 9 negative levels"
*Poof* "You have been hit with Finger of Death"
"You have been hit by Disintegration for 161 points of damage"


Take a look at what a beholder fires and where it fires from. With that knowledge in mind it becomes much easier to go into close quarters with one of these eye tyrants. Regardless of who you are a beholder is most deadly if you attack it head on (enervation, disintegration). People with high will saves will do very well to attack a beholder on its right side (hold monster, Inflict Moderate Wounds). Warforged will find that attacking a beholder from its left side is 100% safe (Flesh to Stone, Slow). If you have the right equipment, anyone can attack a beholder from behind with minor or no repercussions (deathblock item and fire resistance item negates the two damaging rays, Bestow Curse is never fatal).

Also, each eyebeam (well, almost each eyebeam) has a unique color. For each color, a specific eye-spell is cast. If you are fleshy, in front of the beholder, and see a deep indigo color... MOVE! Thats enervation! If you are a Warforged on the right side of the beholder and see a blue beam... LAUGH! Its only Hold Monster. ;)

Disintegration
Enervation/Bestow Curse
Hold Monster/Flesh to Stone/Telekinesis/Slow
Scorching Ray
Finger of Death/Inflict Moderate Wounds (black)

Keep this information in mind next time you assault a beholder and you might find your survival rate higher than the last time.

Good luck. :)

Alavatar
06-23-2008, 07:59 PM
Keep in mind that on Normal CR9-11-ish quests Beholders do not use Finger of Death. That spell is reserved for Hard and Elite. Therefore, Deathblock is not necessary for Normal.

P.S. Good info, MrCow.

ZarakNur
06-23-2008, 08:01 PM
Excellent analysis!

Of course, I just go in with my +1 Weakening Bastard Sword of Enfeebling; 4-5 hits later his Str is zero and he can't use any of his eye rays.

:D

MageLL
06-23-2008, 08:02 PM
Good post cow

Lithic
06-23-2008, 08:03 PM
How the heck did you test this out in DDO? They usually spin so much its hard to know if they are dancing, or attacking! :D

Vizzini
06-23-2008, 08:05 PM
GREAT POST!!

/Thread of the Week Material!

MrCow
06-23-2008, 08:12 PM
Keep in mind that on Normal CR9-11-ish quests Beholders do not use Finger of Death. That spell is reserved for Hard and Elite. Therefore, Deathblock is not necessary for Normal.

Then explain this screenshot ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00605.jpg


How the heck did you test this out in DDO?

The Elder Beholder in the center of Waterworks doesn't move. I simply dashed behind his pillar and then... got hit several times.

Shoal
06-23-2008, 08:26 PM
Is it just me or would this first snapshot go well with a P-Funk chorus and George Clinton's Mothership hovering?



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/BeholderPosing.png

Alavatar
06-23-2008, 08:27 PM
Then explain this screenshot ;)



The Elder Beholder in the center of Waterworks doesn't move. I simply dashed behind his pillar and then... got hit several times.

Elder Beholders are higher CR, I reckon. My post was in reference to normal Beholders. ;)

captain1z
06-23-2008, 08:28 PM
Then explain this screenshot ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/ScreenShot00605.jpg



The Elder Beholder in the center of Waterworks doesn't move. I simply dashed behind his pillar and then... got hit several times.



another reason why I dont question information from the Cow. Sure it may get me killed one day, if on the off chance a fraction of your info is not right.......... but up till today.... all good stuff.


Thnx for the great info. I will be attacking on the right side from now on.



Dude........ you need a title.

Scholar of Monsters
Master Dungeoneer
Monster wrangler
Pokemaster


something like that.

MrCow
06-23-2008, 08:30 PM
Elder Beholders are higher CR, I reckon. My post was in reference to normal Beholders.

And my screenshot is in a place devoid of elder beholders. The beholders and elder beholders don't mingle in Invaders.

Ranmaru2
06-23-2008, 08:31 PM
A good analysis, but only really applicable to the Elder/bigger Beholders in Invaders by the right doorway or if you happen to trap the beholders by the Drow...A Beholder's turn speed is too quick for this game's engine to even register, so at any given moment you are subject to getting hit by any of these beams. Perfect example...surround a beholder, watch as it anti-magics the whole party within 5 seconds...Especially the darn Doomsphere..

However you SHOULDN'T be able to get hit if you're in front of the beholder (Devs, when are you finally going to fix this one? -.- )

Alavatar
06-23-2008, 08:39 PM
And my screenshot is in a place devoid of elder beholders. The beholders and elder beholders don't mingle in Invaders.

Apparently that has changed recently to have normal Beholders cast FoD, because your post below not too long ago confirmed my point.


Well, according to the information on beholders in the DDO Catalog (http://75.67.218.21:800/rageclash/ddocatalog/monster.php?name=Beholder&cr=14) when I did their entry about 3 months ago it appears I didn't get hit by Finger of Death either. :p

Also, at that level and with that group the cleric could have used bestow curse/doom followed by command/sound burst to keep the beholder incapacitated.

If normal Beholders do, in fact, cast FoD then I will be sure to use a DB item from now on.

MrCow
06-23-2008, 08:39 PM
Beholders like to be about 30 feet away, so if you move too close or too far, they do like to move around.

MrCow
06-23-2008, 08:44 PM
Apparently that has changed recently to have normal Beholders cast FoD, because your post below not too long ago confirmed my point.

Online games... change and all that. It shocked me when I saw it too.

captain1z
06-23-2008, 08:45 PM
A good analysis, but only really applicable to the Elder/bigger Beholders in Invaders by the right doorway or if you happen to trap the beholders by the Drow...A Beholder's turn speed is too quick for this game's engine to even register, so at any given moment you are subject to getting hit by any of these beams. Perfect example...surround a beholder, watch as it anti-magics the whole party within 5 seconds...Especially the darn Doomsphere..

However you SHOULDN'T be able to get hit if you're in front of the beholder (Devs, when are you finally going to fix this one? -.- )

The spinning thing is not entirely true. I tend to try and attack Beholders from behind, because I foolishly thought they cant hit you when u are behind them (that and my survival rate has always been higher from behind). Ive gone many an encounter without getting my buffs wiped. 3 times in the last 3 weeks and afew more before that.

Sometimes one person can hold aggro so well that he never turns around. Sorcs and barbs are good in this way.


Also, stunning blow works pretty well against them, if your spec'ed for it.

Guildmaster_Kadish
06-23-2008, 09:09 PM
Also, stunning blow works pretty well against them, if your spec'ed for it.

Personally, I like sneaking up on them and blinding them. Something about doing that somehow always struck me as hilariously funny.

captain1z
06-23-2008, 09:27 PM
Personally, I like sneaking up on them and blinding them. Something about doing that somehow always struck me as hilariously funny.

Ive tried blinding them......... never worked for me.


Do the eye beams still function......... likely they do, but Ive always wanted to try.

Guildmaster_Kadish
06-23-2008, 09:30 PM
Ive tried blinding them......... never worked for me.


Do the eye beams still function......... likely they do, but Ive always wanted to try.

Ya they do, sadly. They ought to randomly shoot in all directions though, instead of continuing to target players :D:eek:

Glenalth
06-23-2008, 10:18 PM
I've had the Doomsphere hit me with a rainbow of eye beams at once. It was very pretty and nearly killed my Eye of the Beholder charges in one blast.

Missing_Minds
06-23-2008, 11:15 PM
Dude........ you need a title.

Scholar of Monsters
Master Dungeoneer
Monster wrangler
Pokemaster

something like that.

I was thinking of Monster Rancher myself, but given the forum naming schemas... Scholar of monsters is more appropriate.

Would be nice if people like this could also get their own personal avatar to use if they so choose.

MrCow
06-23-2008, 11:36 PM
Dude........ you need a title.

I have a title. Even though its the same as most other folks I'm still proud to have it. :)

GlassCannon
06-24-2008, 02:31 AM
Keep in mind that on Normal CR9-11-ish quests Beholders do not use Finger of Death. That spell is reserved for Hard and Elite. Therefore, Deathblock is not necessary for Normal.

P.S. Good info, MrCow.


VON 2, VON 3.

In both instances on Normal, the CR of the quest is less than 11, yet I have been nailed repeatedly by Finger of Death in both quests... usually after a bout of Enervate.

Sue_Dark
06-24-2008, 07:20 AM
Keep this information in mind next time you assault a beholder and you might find your survival rate higher than the last time.

Good luck. :)



My favorite tactics for beholders are feeblemind+melee whoopin, FtS/+cloudkill and move on, w/p+manyshot and move on, or sneaky finger and move on. If I have to melee them, I always wear DB. Even with saves +23/+32/+20, and SR17 item, they land far too often to rely on saves alone.

Also, feeblemind makes em not fire eyebeams. Anti-magic still works, but no more pew pew pew. So pop off a feeblemind next time you run into a beholder and then beat em like a red-headed step child!

Crarites
06-24-2008, 08:07 AM
Just as a side note the eye of the beholder will also blocks some of the worst rays from a normal beholder. My favorite line of attack is weakening of enfeebling with beholders/renders/mindflayers. Its very amusing in pugs particularly when my rogue is dual wielding weakening/enfeebling rapier/shorty with crippling strike because of the commentary. The beholder becoming helpless isn't nearly as amusing as someone in the party saying something along the lines of "Dude I rock, I'm landing crits every swing tonight".

Arianrhod
06-24-2008, 08:16 AM
Fired from the front of a beholder:
Disintegration
Enervation
Telekinesis
Beholder Antimagic Effect (from the main eye)

Fired from the right of a beholder:
Hold Monster
Inflict Moderate Wounds

Fired from the back of a beholder:
Finger of Death
Scorching Ray
Bestow Curse

Fired from the left of a beholder:
Flesh to Stone
Slow? Sleep? (Not sure, Warforged don't get combat log information on these)


:)

Thanks for the breakdown, this is awesome :)

Interesting how different DDO beholder eyebeams are fro D&D...I tried looking them up in the monster manual to see what the "mystery" beam might be, and found several of them seem to be different:

D&D 3.5 beholder eyebeams:
Charm Monster
Charm Person
Disintegrate
Fear
Finger of Death
Flesh to Stone
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Slow
Telekinesis

I can see why they got rid of the charms, since they don't work so well in the MMO environment, but replacing them with enervation, bestow curse AND scorching ray? Heh. Think many of us would have preferred Fear to any one of those ;)

Hendrik
06-24-2008, 08:37 AM
Great thread Cow! Thread of the Week material!!!

Would like to read more of these type of posts dealing with creatures from you Cow.


Well done!!!

DeadlyGazebo
06-24-2008, 08:49 AM
Fired from the left of a beholder:

...

Slow? Sleep? (Not sure, Warforged don't get combat log information on these)



The unknown there is Slow; by the time you're fighting beholders, you're probably immune to sleep, so we didn't bother giving it to them.

You also failed to mention the dreaded "alphastrike", where they light up like an xmas tree and zot you with hold/inflict/enervation/flesh-to-stone/slow/finger/disintegrate/telekinesis all at once. They only do this when low on HP; it is another great reason to hit them with disabling attacks first, rather than doing straight HP damage.

Additionally somewhat interesting is the fact that their beams travel at a finite speed and do not pass through people. So you can sometimes dodge by sidestepping at the right time, or you can stand directly behind the party member with piles of immunities and let them soak up the rays for you.

MrCow
06-24-2008, 08:56 AM
You also failed to mention the dreaded "alphastrike", where they light up like an xmas tree and zot you with hold/inflict/enervation/flesh-to-stone/slow/finger/disintegrate/telekinesis all at once.

Yeah, the beholder picture doing the alphastrike is at 0 STR, so I wasn't inflicted with it (and to be honest I have never seen this happen to someone because beholders tend to never stay at low life long enough around me).

By the way, did I mention you are my favorite developer because you ALWAYS seem to drop by my monster information threads? ;)

Sue_Dark
06-24-2008, 08:56 AM
Invaders, Von 2-3, others(cant recall non-red be's atm, outside these quests) Feeblemind, FtS, Curse. They'll sit there forever, doing their impression of the Rock of Gibraltar.

Spoilies- In invaders, the first beholder to the right of the entry, hit with above chain and LEAVE HIM BE. You can exit and return and fart around all you want, without worrying about the constant ice flenser re-pops. (If you worry about those that is) This combined with a Dball also works at the flenser portal later on in the dungeon. Why kill over and over, when you can immobalize and save resources? Kill em for conq if its first run, then tie up the rest and get rolling :)


Great info Cow, keep it comming.

Sue_Dark
06-24-2008, 09:01 AM
The unknown there is Slow; by the time you're fighting beholders, you're probably immune to sleep, so we didn't bother giving it to them.

You also failed to mention the dreaded "alphastrike", where they light up like an xmas tree and zot you with hold/inflict/enervation/flesh-to-stone/slow/finger/disintegrate/telekinesis all at once. They only do this when low on HP; it is another great reason to hit them with disabling attacks first, rather than doing straight HP damage.

Additionally somewhat interesting is the fact that their beams travel at a finite speed and do not pass through people. So you can sometimes dodge by sidestepping at the right time, or you can stand directly behind the party member with piles of immunities and let them soak up the rays for you.




FINALLY A USE FOR THAT TOASTER PALLY!!!!

EspyLacopa
06-24-2008, 09:16 AM
The unknown there is Slow; by the time you're fighting beholders, you're probably immune to sleep, so we didn't bother giving it to them.
Except the Beholder version of Sleep has no HD limitation in PnP.

Glenalth
06-24-2008, 11:04 AM
You also failed to mention the dreaded "alphastrike", where they light up like an xmas tree and zot you with hold/inflict/enervation/flesh-to-stone/slow/finger/disintegrate/telekinesis all at once.

The colors! The colors!

Arianrhod
06-24-2008, 12:17 PM
Also, each eyebeam (well, almost each eyebeam) has a unique color. For each color, a specific eye-spell is cast. If you are fleshy, in front of the beholder, and see a deep indigo color... MOVE! Thats enervation! If you are a Warforged on the right side of the beholder and see a blue beam... LAUGH! Its only Hold Monster. ;)

Disintegration
Enervation/Bestow Curse
Hold Monster/Flesh to Stone/Telekinesis/Slow
Scorching Ray
Finger of Death/Inflict Moderate Wounds (black)



So that halfling getting zotted by the green ray in the intro video, that's Disintegrate. Got it :)

Strakeln
06-24-2008, 01:21 PM
Keep in mind that on Normal CR9-11-ish quests Beholders do not use Finger of Death. That spell is reserved for Hard and Elite. Therefore, Deathblock is not necessary for Normal.

P.S. Good info, MrCow.I was fingered the other day in VoN 3 on normal. Isn't that pretty much the lowest level of beholders we have?

Twerpp
06-24-2008, 01:26 PM
Great info to have!

Have you calculated how much Str and Con they have at various CR? Seems like the dingleberries have insane fort saves.

MrCow
06-24-2008, 01:30 PM
Have you calculated how much Str and Con they have at various CR?

The DDO Catalog (http://75.67.218.21:800/rageclash/ddocatalog/listing.php?rel=monster) has most of that information, providing you want to hunt a bit around in it.


Seems like the dingleberries have insane fort saves.

They have an inflated CON score and therefore have a higher fortitude save.

Arianrhod
06-24-2008, 01:46 PM
The DDO Catalog (http://75.67.218.21:800/rageclash/ddocatalog/listing.php?rel=monster) has most of that information, providing you want to hunt a bit around in it.



They have an inflated CON score and therefore have a higher fortitude save.

By the way....is there a thread somewhere for people to post info to add to that catalog? Or should it just be PMed?

MrCow
06-24-2008, 01:49 PM
I never made a thread... so PM'in me should be fine if you have any questions on it.

wolfy42
06-24-2008, 01:55 PM
Great thread, and very nice info!!

It should be mentioned though that a Deathblock spell is not enough against beholders due to their anti-magic ability.

If you can stay only behind the beholder (if someone else gets aggro for instance) then a deathblock spell would be enough.

But for most beholder fights you need a deathblock item equiped to be truely safe from instant death (at least from FoD hehe).

I don't believe there is any way to protect yourself from Enervation + Disintagrate combo other then imobolizing/weakening the beholder to fast.

High saves do help alot vs the beholder though especially in combination with a deathblock item as it drastically reduces the number of attacks the beholder can actually affect you with. If you have a good cleric around and decent hp the disintigrate isn't a problem either...unless you have so many negative levels that you get killed in 1 shot or something:)

MrCow
06-24-2008, 01:57 PM
It should be mentioned though that a Deathblock spell is not enough against beholders due to their anti-magic ability.

Death Ward is a spell. It can be dispelled.
Deathblock is an item property. It is only disabled when you are not using that item as equipment.


I don't believe there is any way to protect yourself from Enervation + Disintagrate combo other then imobolizing/weakening the beholder to fast.

Enervation is stopped by Optic Nerves, Silver Flame Trinket's energy absorption, and is subject to an SR check (yay for monks).

Crarites
06-24-2008, 02:03 PM
Enervation is stopped by Optic Nerves, Silver Flame Trinket's energy absorption, and is subject to an SR check (yay for monks).


Haven't tested it specifically but eye of the beholder I think blocks enervation from all beholders as well.