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phillun
06-23-2008, 12:39 AM
we spend our time n plat on figuring how to run these raids u devlope. eventually we become successfull at completing them. then, you decide, to make them rediculously more difficult and expensive to do. they become no fun so we quit running them. shroud groups are almost nonexistant anymore because it is not fun anymore. did this letter boost your egos? if so, congratulations. THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOMETHING FUN AND SCREWING IT UP!

boldarblood
06-23-2008, 12:42 AM
we spend our time n plat on figuring how to run these raids u devlope. eventually we become successfull at completing them. then, you decide, to make them rediculously more difficult and expensive to do. they become no fun so we quit running them. shroud groups are almost nonexistant anymore because it is not fun anymore. did this letter boost your egos? if so, congratulations. THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOMETHING FUN AND SCREWING IT UP!

Don't agree.

I see a lot of pug shroud runs on Khyber every night, also a lot of Hound runs. See VOD also, but not to the degree of the other two.

Lithic
06-23-2008, 12:47 AM
Why are you whining that they fixed a bug that made the shroud boss a 5min auto-attack snore-fest?

Go play single-player games on god-mode if you want to exploit geez.

bobbryan2
06-23-2008, 12:58 AM
For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

Hanam
06-23-2008, 02:04 AM
For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

I enjoy the shroud a lot more now that I can actually pug it without having to worry about cheese.

Karrai
06-23-2008, 02:19 AM
we spend our time n plat on figuring how to run these raids u devlope. eventually we become successfull at completing them. then, you decide, to make them rediculously more difficult and expensive to do. they become no fun so we quit running them. shroud groups are almost nonexistant anymore because it is not fun anymore. did this letter boost your egos? if so, congratulations. THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOMETHING FUN AND SCREWING IT UP!

Raids should never be an easy, cheap, 10 min bore fest. And the new raids are level 18 they are not meant to be a walk in the park.



For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

So you consider bugging out and getting mobs stuck fun. It was less fun when big red got bug out in pt 5 and when the mobs in pt 2 bug after they died or got stuck on a piece of terrain.

The fixes they did to the Shroud should have been made months ago, this just shows you which players know how to handle the challenges they face from those who need an easy button cheese tactic.


Now Turbine just has to fix the Demon Queens problems and remove those pre-quest to run the raid and add more air elementals to the Reaver raid.

esoitl
06-23-2008, 02:24 AM
For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

ummmm what??
you don't like a Raid that is working properly now??


muffin.... if you have to use exploits i'm sorry but you are a terrible player and what makes it worse is that you enjoy playing bugged quests....

silverraven
06-23-2008, 02:45 AM
we spend our time n plat on figuring how to run these raids u devlope. eventually we become successfull at completing them. then, you decide, to make them rediculously more difficult and expensive to do. they become no fun so we quit running them. shroud groups are almost nonexistant anymore because it is not fun anymore. did this letter boost your egos? if so, congratulations. THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOMETHING FUN AND SCREWING IT UP!

Anymore, you just joined (the forums at least) like four months ago :mad:

Aranticus
06-23-2008, 03:23 AM
earn your own keep and stop lining up for handouts :cool:

Mhykke
06-23-2008, 04:00 AM
For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

Disagree.

Part 2 is a lot more fun now.

Some chance of failure if you're with a bad group.

Need to work together better, instead of just bugging one mob after another and then casually running back to crystal to destroy it.

HeavenlyCloud
06-23-2008, 04:17 AM
Disagree.

Part 2 is a lot more fun now.

Some chance of failure if you're with a bad group.

Need to work together better, instead of just bugging one mob after another and then casually running back to crystal to destroy it.

Is a lot of fun, but it used to be better in my opinion when there was a penalty box. That actually was a challenge, especially on higher difficulty.

Mhykke
06-23-2008, 04:20 AM
Is a lot of fun, but it used to be better in my opinion when there was a penalty box. That actually was a challenge, especially on higher difficulty.

Oh yeah, I just mean it's more fun than how it was before the recent fix of not allowing mobs to get stuck.

HeavenlyCloud
06-23-2008, 04:26 AM
Oh yeah, I just mean it's more fun than how it was before the recent fix of not allowing mobs to get stuck.

I just wanted to quote you :P.

Actually i find it quite funny when groups wipe in part 2, just because they didn't know how to handle the mobs, makes it easier for me to avoid certain people.

Twerpp
06-23-2008, 04:41 AM
Also..does it seem like they toned down Harry a LOT? He seems almost lethargic now. Also Sulo to some extent even...doesnt seem to be rapidly owning the **** out of whoever hes got chained... maybe its just me but the elite run the other day seemed easier than the normal run done at the raids launch.

GlassCannon
06-23-2008, 04:56 AM
Why are you whining that they fixed a bug that made the shroud boss a 5min auto-attack snore-fest?

Go play single-player games on god-mode if you want to exploit geez.

lol Kane's Wrath with a cheat machine makes is a ka-boomie paradise.

Yes, I do need to occasionally feel a God complex to balance out the depression.


Additionally, Devs, I really do notice that instead of having over 1,000 HP on Normal, the stuff in the Shroud has about 200. THANK YOU!! :)

Venar
06-23-2008, 05:40 AM
I realise that part 2 was bugged before.
And there is challenge in killing the 4 bosses at the same time.
But i still believe that it needs twinking. The lion and Fire elemental ghosts could use a little tune down of their runing speed.

Also, since the part 2 trees and part 5 pools are used each run to top off SP once, why not include a shrine instead? Limits toping SP to only one time, and saves the stupid 10 minutes tumbling.

Aside from that, the Shroud is now a very entertaining raid.

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 06:05 AM
we spend our time n plat on figuring how to run these raids u devlope. eventually we become successfull at completing them. then, you decide, to make them rediculously more difficult and expensive to do. they become no fun so we quit running them. shroud groups are almost nonexistant anymore because it is not fun anymore. did this letter boost your egos? if so, congratulations. THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOMETHING FUN AND SCREWING IT UP!

I still complete shroud 12 times a week BECAUSE it is the only FUN raid in the game,.... If by fun, you mean easy... then I guess that's your problem. I like the fact that the shroud is the way it is. It actually requires TEAMWORK!!! what a novel idea.

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 06:08 AM
Anymore, you just joined (the forums at least) like four months ago :mad:

You realize a lot of people played way before they joined the forums right. I've been playing over 2 years and only joined forums last year

Lorien_the_First_One
06-23-2008, 06:17 AM
The lion and Fire elemental ghosts could use a little tune down of their runing speed.

Kill whatever else you are killing first, have a caster in the center waiting, and then kill the speed demons...plenty of time that way :)



Also, since the part 2 trees and part 5 pools are used each run to top off SP once, why not include a shrine instead? Limits toping SP to only one time, and saves the stupid 10 minutes tumbling..

Actually I can and have topped off more than once.

In part 2 I often stand in a tree while fighting to exend my sps and in the event "something goes wrong" it allows you all to top up again before the recovery.

In part 5 you can top off while the last lieutenant is being hunted and often again (at least partially) during the final fight. Unless you are killing him slow the last two pools should be around till pretty much the end of the fight.

I like the sp pool concept, it works well with the raid concept. I do however wish that it regenned faster, its just a PIA as it is to regen.

mehlinda
06-23-2008, 06:55 AM
I was away for three weeks and missed the opening of Mod 7 so I have done only 3 Shroud runs. I suspected they would make part 2 work as intended so I am not surprised. My guild had been working on being able to kill the four without making them stay in one place as much as possible. The only thing I think makes it overly challenging for a random Pug is certain combinations make for a degree of scrambling that people who are not used to each other's play style may not be able to overcome. The Fire elemental moves pretty fast once he's a ghost and the devil ports a bit too much or too fast for some groups. I had that exact combo 2x in a group that was 90% guild and I was thinking I was glad it was not a Pug. I am happy for the change and if they really managed to remove the part 5 cheese which I never took part in willingly anyway then my hat's really off. I did the Hound on 6 of my toons and we pretty much have that down to a 7-9 minute win once we get there and I'm looking forward to the Horned Devil over the next few days. My only 2 complaints so far with this mod are the changes to blade barrier and the completely ridiculous decision to make a full account delete a character to roll a monk. This is the most "interesting" decision I have seen IMO ever in DDO. I just don' get it.

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 07:08 AM
I run nothing but Pug shrouds and rarely have a problem I almost never join other groups, prefer to lead them myself. I've got about 120 completions and maybe 10 failures. The raid is not hard, people are just not used to having to coordinate. As long as there is a good leader it's cake. People just have to listen and not go all Leroy Jenkins and shizz. It's actually fun taking first timers through on a nice smooth Shroud run( it's really fun to blame the party wipe between 4 and 5 on them :) )

Aranticus
06-23-2008, 07:11 AM
I was away for three weeks and missed the opening of Mod 7 so I have done only 3 Shroud runs. I suspected they would make part 2 work as intended so I am not surprised. My guild had been working on being able to kill the four without making them stay in one place as much as possible. The only thing I think makes it overly challenging for a random Pug is certain combinations make for a degree of scrambling that people who are not used to each other's play style may not be able to overcome. The Fire elemental moves pretty fast once he's a ghost and the devil ports a bit too much or too fast for some groups. I had that exact combo 2x in a group that was 90% guild and I was thinking I was glad it was not a Pug. I am happy for the change and if they really managed to remove the part 5 cheese which I never took part in willingly anyway then my hat's really off. I did the Hound on 6 of my toons and we pretty much have that down to a 7-9 minute win once we get there and I'm looking forward to the Horned Devil over the next few days. My only 2 complaints so far with this mod are the changes to blade barrier and the completely ridiculous decision to make a full account delete a character to roll a monk. This is the most "interesting" decision I have seen IMO ever in DDO. I just don' get it.

the lieutenants in part 2 are very simple. key to success is COMMUNICATION and LISTENING. w/o both, the pug is a destined failure.

it depends on who you get and there are now 2 main ways to kill them.

senario 1, fire, cat, orthon, kobold
normally for this senario, the fire will be pulled to SW, cat to SE, orthon and kobold will be in NE. drop the orthon 1st, a cleric or spare caster or any ranged player (with manyshot active) will then run into the centre while taking the kobold down. when the crystal player is in place, drop cat and fire. reason being NE is furthest, so it gives time to get a player in place to take the crystal down immediately when cat and fire is dropped

senario 2, fire, devil, gnoll, orc
there are 2 ways to do this.
1. first way is to get devil and orc to NE, gnoll to the area just before NE. reason being NE furthest and you want the gnoll away from party due to its blade barriers and cometfalls. kill devil 1st, drop orc, get 1 player to centre, drop gnoll, player in position, drop fire, kill crystal

2. the second way is slightly different, devil and orc to SW, gnoll to SE, fire to NE. drop devil, get 1 player to centre, drop gnoll and orc, player in position, drop fire kill crystal.

for senario 2, i favor the 2nd way as the other 3 lieutenants are relatively slow so it means a lower chance of a boo boo if someone drops fire by mistake

phillun
06-23-2008, 07:46 AM
Why are you whining that they fixed a bug that made the shroud boss a 5min auto-attack snore-fest?

Go play single-player games on god-mode if you want to exploit geez.

actually parts 4 and 5 are not a problem at all and never were. part 2 is where the failures occur too often. when i run my ftr or caster it is no big deal but as a cleric it sucks. to throw over 150 heal scrolls and not even get past part2 is not not fun gaming.

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 07:49 AM
actually parts 4 and 5 are not a problem at all and never were. part 2 is where the failures occur too often. when i run my ftr or caster it is no big deal but as a cleric it sucks. to throw over 150 heal scrolls and not even get past part2 is not not fun gaming.

I throw 0 heal scrolls when I'm on my cleric, you must be doing something wrong.

Altarboy
06-23-2008, 08:04 AM
I throw 0 heal scrolls when I'm on my cleric, you must be doing something wrong.
Yeah...because you guys are like a friggin machine!
Pfffft stupid rangers!
But I agree, unless you get a really bad group or leader I hardly use anything on my cleric.
:D

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 08:12 AM
Yeah...because you guys are like a friggin machine!
Pfffft stupid rangers!
But I agree, unless you get a really bad group or leader I hardly use anything on my cleric.
:D

Yeah I'm a bit of a shroudaholic.... The OP should move to Khyber, I'll show him how to run a shroud..... hey OP, if all your wipes are when you run your cleric, not your tank or caster, maybe that's the largest factor in the equation. A lot of people level clerics without learning how to actually play one. In shroud your cleric has to be at least mediocre, a horrible cleric is a detriment. I can't speak for you because I've never run with you, but Shroud should not be that painful for an average cleric. I don't even stock up on stuff when i run shroud(and I am by no means a great cleric, I think I suck), last one I did on my cleric(his 20th) I had 15 heal scrolls when I entered and 15 when I left.

miceelf88
06-23-2008, 08:30 AM
I don't know about the newer raids, so you all are probably right. But the example of a raid that was kind of ruined by nerfing may not be what the OP had in mind, but is out there- the Abbot raid. Pretty much the crappy icing on the dreary necropolis cake.

adamkatt
06-23-2008, 08:32 AM
We ran the shroud last night and i was clericin it up and i had a great time. even on part 2..

Talcyndl
06-23-2008, 08:37 AM
For what it's worth...

I think part 2 of the Shroud is less fun now.

It's still doable, but I just don't like the dynamic now.

Disagree. A LOT.

Old, bugged version was idiotic. Almost every run (except for the rare clean run) started part 2 with a listing of where and how each MOB bugged. Don't see how that makes for a fun adventure.

Talcyndl
06-23-2008, 08:38 AM
actually parts 4 and 5 are not a problem at all and never were. part 2 is where the failures occur too often. when i run my ftr or caster it is no big deal but as a cleric it sucks. to throw over 150 heal scrolls and not even get past part2 is not not fun gaming.

Wow. Even on a really bad run I don't use more than a handful of heal scrolls in Part 2. After all, you have unlimited mana in there. :confused:

Talcyndl
06-23-2008, 08:41 AM
I don't know about the newer raids, so you all are probably right. But the example of a raid that was kind of ruined by nerfing may not be what the OP had in mind, but is out there- the Abbot raid. Pretty much the crappy icing on the dreary necropolis cake.

Funny, I think that Necropolis is a fun area. The Raid just kinda ruined what would otherwise have been a good set of dungeons. At least once more people got the Inferno path down and learned how to quickly kill the Undead Beholder in Perdition.

Aspenor
06-23-2008, 08:50 AM
Part 2 is easy. Heck, the whole freakin' raid is easy, now.

If you learn to run the quest properly from the get-go instead of using glitches, you end up having a lot less trouble later on.

darkrune
06-23-2008, 08:58 AM
Raids should never be an easy, cheap, 10 min bore fest. And the new raids are level 18 they are not meant to be a walk in the park...

First off let me start by saying i totally agree with your position about exploits i hate using them however i have not opposed them before when investing time and resources and the group has not a chance but that is not what i was responding to.

The demon queen and velah need to be fixed to allow for timer without redoing pre-reqs... agreed but the quote above actually kinda irks me because everytime i see people saying this about bugging it reminds me of the reaver. If you are not a cleric the main tank or the person FOD/PK/Banishing eles (which thank god were lessened due to the amount of server lag they were causing supposedly) then for 10-18 minutes your are doing exactly what you state above, standing under the archway for an easy cheap borefest that gives you the opportunity to pull +3 tomes.

I DISPISE the reaver. It is the worst raid in the game stand in a hole watch one guy beat a giant until he can fly to a lever, kill giant, solve mastermind get loot... Yet this does this stop me from running my cleric, caster, fighter, bard, ranger and barb every three days like clockwork... No... Why? Because i want the +3 tomes as well as everyone else.

I am glad they fixed the shoud and made part 2 harder and eliminated the part 5 fiasco. But they need to stop messing with the mechanics of other raids just cause we beat them to easily... If i choose to take 12 lvl 16 toons into velah we should kill her on elite in less than 10 minutes with minimal deaths and just a bum-rush. the quest is lvl 12 (iirc) on elite so 16s should breeze through it, yet the dev's go back and NERF the islands by not allowing the monsters to move making it harder. Did we adapt... sure. just range or fascinate or straight beatdown whatever is appropriate for that group.

Then they mess with the titan no more grease, no more cometfall, fine do it the "long" way but soon the lvl 13 (again iirc) elite quest became to easy for level 16 toons so bam with the nerf bat and the aggro is f-ed up and the balance check is now 40??? still yet a good experience group can destroy it.

Next the Demon Queen walk in beat her down ck the guys on top get loot. Whiff nerf bat time. EVERYTHING now red named firewall the guys on top beat her down move on...

Ok here is the point of my rant, everytime they go back in a quest and "revamp it" they make it harder for level appropriate groups to do the quest. This I do have a problem with. A level 10-12 group should wipe 75% of the time on velah elite she is a cr24 or something like that. She should laugh about the group of tasty morsals that thought they were prepared to beat her. but a group of 10-12 should beat her >75% on normal if they are prepared and experienced. Same with titan same with DQ same with all raids. Dont just hit them with the god-mode rednamed immunites nerfbat that they so often do just so level 16 groups cant walkthru a level 12 quest and get raid loot.

sorry that i have gone off in a rant but there are bigger issues that need fixed rather than revisit old quests to make them harder for endgame toons. Fix the exploits dont "fix" the raids.

just my 2cp

Dark

Vorn
06-23-2008, 09:01 AM
:D
Part 2 is easy. Heck, the whole freakin' raid is easy, now.

If you learn to run the quest properly from the get-go instead of using glitches, you end up having a lot less trouble later on.

QFT.

Additionally more people are practiced on the shroud so there's a broader knowledge base among the players in general (though it is still fun to have the new guy click on the portal at the end of part 4 and then tease them about wiping the party:D) and people are, in general, better geared now for that raid.

We'll know it's really easy when the LFM's are out for PuG's to run it on elite for completion. I don't think it's there yet, however.

darkrune
06-23-2008, 09:06 AM
:D

though it is still fun to have the new guy click on the portal at the end of part 4


Thanks for ruining the surprise for all the newer peeps that we could have pulled this on ;) :)

jamie_lannister
06-23-2008, 09:08 AM
wow i actually agree with aspenor :P

Vengenance
06-23-2008, 09:11 AM
The only thing that needs fixed in the Shroud raid, and for that matter in the entire game is phasing creatures. It seems with this latest mod creatures are getting themselves stuck in walls, trees, etc. The teleport mechanic IMO is broke and should be turned on until it is fixed. The same thing goes for scorpions or any mob that appears and disapears.

bobbryan2
06-23-2008, 09:33 AM
I just mean I liked it more before.

I liked the idea of locking people in corners. It would have been better if the corners switched, so you didn't know where to lock them. But.. I just don't like the way part 2 works now.

I think now that Part 2 is harder than part 3 and 4... which doesn't scale the way it did.

That's just my opinion, you guys can feel differently.

Aspenor
06-23-2008, 09:49 AM
wow i actually agree with aspenor :P

Come to the Dark Side, Jamie. Give in to your feelings.

DoctorWhofan
06-23-2008, 11:53 AM
DiD VIsion this weekend

It was expensive, painful and rough.

But we finished it.

Even if we didn't IT WAS FUN!!

Haven't ran the shroud yet, but I see lots of people running it. They seem to have fun with it.

VoN is still fun

DQ is boring

Titan is boring and now annoying.

The Reaver is ok.

Tempest's Spine is a blast!

The Hound of the Xoriat is so very cool!

Haven't done the Abbott yet, looking forward to that.

Hard or not hard, very little of the "fun" factor is lost. I simply try to avoid the raids I don't like. Each raid is unique. Findthe ones you like and run them. I did!:D

captain1z
06-23-2008, 12:11 PM
shroud groups (and pugs) still run very frequently. If you have seen a decline in shroud groups you can thank:

VOD
HOX
and the newly revived Abbot

Were as before high level groups had 1 option as far as what raid to run.......... we now have four.

The shroud is still very runnable


Last night we had a group go into the shroud and destroy part 1.
We get to part 2 and pull the earth ele, the cat, the troll and the kobold
leader says........ thats a good pull, lets just bring em all to south central and kill em.
The casters were still in the tree, but he says to them, dont worry about SP just come help kill em when you think you are ready.
All the mobs came to south central and we murdered them in seconds........... heck, even I was shocked.
We then went on to kill the devil in 1 and 1/4 rnds and the last part was done before I finished my second many shot on big red.

However, Ive only completed HOX once and neither of the other 2. People are playing with the new toys............. that is all.

Pyromaniac
06-24-2008, 06:26 AM
The newest 3 raids are fun - however its getting tougher to bring in inexperienced/not solid players to the raids. Its fine - just your success rate is higher in guild runs or PUGs with people who know each other.

Personally I love hound, think vision is ok, and still like the shroud. Though the arcane caster loot is horrible in hound/vision; and there isn't enough there to entice clerics :)

Days of the reaver/easy button raids appear to be over.

Venar
06-24-2008, 06:55 AM
Agree with the loot.
Now, building a VoD, you have 12 guys who want to be on rogues and goggles and nobody who wanna cleric and spend 15 mana pots to keep the rogues alive.