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View Full Version : Next raid.... no red-name



Thrudh
06-22-2008, 12:25 AM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....

I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....

A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....

sirgog
06-22-2008, 12:48 AM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....

I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....

A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....

That is a really interesting idea, although I do think the Hound of Xoriat raid is a little bit like that in that the major threat that a fair section of the party have to deal with is Flesh Renders and Beholders that aren't even orange named, although they (through the Mind Block buff) share the immunity to some crowd control spells (such as Charm Monster) that orange-named foes tend to have.

Stat-damage is generally considered the best way in the game to deal with everything except red-nameds, and AC tanking is indeed very very strong (in fact probably the optimal known strategy) in the Suulomades raid. But I wouldn't at all mind seeing your suggestion put into practice. I'm thinking of something like the Zombie Train encounter in the Orchard of the Macabre, made larger and with more powerful foes to be appropriate to 12 level 16 characters.

(And by the way, the annoying troll in me feels obliged to point out that there are many raids without rednamed foes - Tempests' Spine, The Titan Awakes, VON6, Accursed Ascension, Hound of Madness and the Reaver all consist of non-nameds, orange and purple named foes only, with no rednameds to be seen :D

ShadowFox1978
06-22-2008, 12:48 AM
Orange-named raid bosses? You really think that would change the balance? Ideal party for that 2-3 clerics, 3 or so sorcs, barbs doing dps and some tempests with w/p or vorpals. Wow that is a raid catered to the DPS/stat damage/instakill crowd. You would get a raid with no place for AC or strat builds.

sirgog
06-22-2008, 01:05 AM
Orange-named raid bosses? You really think that would change the balance? Ideal party for that 2-3 clerics, 3 or so sorcs, barbs doing dps and some tempests with w/p or vorpals. Wow that is a raid catered to the DPS/stat damage/instakill crowd. You would get a raid with no place for AC or strat builds.

Depends how it is designed.

Orange-named mobs with the capacity to cast Mass Deathward solves the Vorpal/Sorc with an itchy finger problem - those types will get some kills but will miss others. Orange-named mobs casting Mass Restoration in addition to Mass Cure spells solves the stat-damage issue - wounders will still work - sometimes... Orange-named foes with a high AC, high SR, high saves and resistances but 'fair' hp will be hard (but possible) to kill with Finger, Vorpals and stat damage - just as they will be hard, but possible to kill with DPS or control with Stunning Blow/Trip/Charm spells. Casters that choose to focus on crowd control will have some success with Dance, Fear and Charm effects - until an orange-named caster drops down Mind Blank on their underlings one-by-one to make them immune, or Greater Heroism to make them resistant.


I think it'd be cool to see a raid where people actually want to use spells we never see used, like Feeblemind (drop that on an enemy cleric that has already hit themself with Deathward so you can't finger them)


My vision of what the OP meant was a raid where you'd have melee-type foes that are similar in power to what Shroud orthons on hard would be like if they had 75% less HP - and you'd face a LOT of them. You'd also have casters that are similar in power to the rednamed Gnoll from the Shroud, but again, less HP, less immunities, and lots more of them. Not to mention other potent foes like Beholders and so on. That could work really well, IMO.

Kaldaka
06-23-2008, 09:38 AM
I agree with the OP, somewhat .... IMO it seems the devs are laking a bit of imagination when it comes to raids.

I will say, however, that the hound raid does come close to what the OP suggests.

But big, giant, immune-to-everything, a bazillion HP, red-named Boss is the rule in DDO not the exception ....

Aranticus
06-23-2008, 09:42 AM
my tatical fighter is doing quite well in shroud or vision. specced for trip and stuns, he can take care of the devils in vision quite easily. with his numerous number of feats, i've also given him cleave, ITHF, GTHF for more 2H dps

Thailand_Dan
06-23-2008, 09:53 AM
Someone mentioned orange named bosses are usually immune to charms/suggestions etc. Not to hijack the thread, but was wondering what the ruling on orange named mobs is concerning this. Running Gnoll Fan, we hit a room with an orange named and many non-named mobs. I threw down mass suggestion, figuring the non-named mobs would get hit, and turn on the orange named. Well, the orange named ended up getting suggested. Someone in the group over voice-chat even said, I thought you couldn't charm orange named. Is this is a bug, or is it just most cant be suggested, or they just have a very high save and I got lucky? Just curious. Thanks

juniorpfactors
06-23-2008, 09:56 AM
Someone mentioned orange named bosses are usually immune to charms/suggestions etc. Not to hijack the thread, but was wondering what the ruling on orange named mobs is concerning this. Running Gnoll Fan, we hit a room with an orange named and many non-named mobs. I threw down mass suggestion, figuring the non-named mobs would get hit, and turn on the orange named. Well, the orange named ended up getting suggested. Someone in the group over voice-chat even said, I thought you couldn't charm orange named. Is this is a bug, or is it just most cant be suggested, or they just have a very high save and I got lucky? Just curious. Thanks

I know i mass suggested one orange named in the desert yesterday

jrp

Razvan
06-23-2008, 09:56 AM
I thought the raid bosses are purple, not red....meh!

Oh, and I disagree with the OP...put 50-100 orange named with Mass Deathward and such and then you got what?...the same need for high-DPS characters like we have now...

Impaqt
06-23-2008, 09:56 AM
Orange Named are just Regular Mobs who Turbine has deemed a Higher Threat. They do not share the immunities tier Red/Purple kin have.

I dont think they are immune to anything.

Josh
06-23-2008, 09:59 AM
Since when is deathward supposed to stop vorpals and undead from being disrupted? That's what I want to know.

Impaqt
06-23-2008, 10:03 AM
Since when is deathward supposed to stop vorpals and undead from being disrupted? That's what I want to know.


Deathward has always stopped the Vorpal Efffect.

Disrupting Undead? Not sure.

Josh
06-23-2008, 10:19 AM
Notice that I did not say "When did Death Ward stop the vorpal effect in this game?". I said "Since when does Death Ward stop the vorpal effect?" The answer, of course is NEVER.

The death ward spell only protects you from magical death effects, death spells, energy drain and negative energy effects. Ask the Sage.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080409a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070725a

I seem to remember this being discussed to some length in the past, with certain people beholdent to the concept that the vorpal ability is a "death atteck" or "death effect", which it clearly is NOT. Not like the devs care...they can't even figure out how to implement beholders properly after 2+ years. I guess this is off topic though.

As for the undead, I meant in the new raid(s) explorer area. I believe they cast Death Ward on themselves and you can't disrupt them.

Blanket immunities have always been a cop-out for the developers of this game to artificially inflate the difficulty level. They take away PC's abilities, which is one of the cardinal no-no's when it comes to DMing a campaign. "Boss" fights are one dimentional hack fests. Giving them spells or something that prevent effects is perfectly fine for me, as long as we have the ability to do something about it (i.e. mantle of invunerability, globe of spell immunity, spell turning, ect). That's a much more appealing encounter in my opinion.

DelScorcho
06-26-2008, 02:43 PM
Orange mobs can generally be charmed if their monster type can be charmed. The reason most casters won't is that frequently you have to wait until the orange named is dead to move the mission forward.

DoctorWhofan
06-26-2008, 03:15 PM
I was going to protest, but i thought a moment. That IS a great idea!

Zaodon
06-26-2008, 03:18 PM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....

I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....

A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....

A good way to implement this idea would be similar to the Shroud part 2.

Force the players to separate to different parts of the map, to perform important objectives. Some of the actions would be non-combat oriented (pulling a lever, solving a puzzle) and some would be non-red mobs. You could even add on the idea of having to complete all their parts at the same time in order to beat the raid, for extra difficulty.

maddmatt70
06-26-2008, 03:44 PM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....

I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....

A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....

The funny thing is I disagree with you at least in regards to DPS vs. stat-damaging (I do agree with you in particular regarding tactical). If they didn't have the few red names they have there would be no slashing specced chars in the game. Everybody would be piercing specced and w/p rapiers would even be more sought after if that were actually possible. In both of the new raids I constantly hear the raid leaders say get out your w/p weapons for X mob. Well Norg my poor little dwarven fighter abhors rapiers and other piercing weapons and thinks they are well weaksauce because well he likes his dwarven axes and since I can't get puncturing on dwarven axes he goes without puncturing. DON'T KILL NORG....

If you made an orange named raid unless you made the orange named immune to vorpals and stat damage that is what everybody would be using. Is that what you really want? Hardly seems like fun to me...

bobbryan2
06-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Orange Named are just Regular Mobs who Turbine has deemed a Higher Threat. They do not share the immunities tier Red/Purple kin have.

I dont think they are immune to anything.

Facinate.

Guaire
06-26-2008, 04:07 PM
Deathward has always stopped the Vorpal Efffect.

Disrupting Undead? Not sure.


It stops the Smiting effect too.

Rameses
06-26-2008, 05:22 PM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....
As compared to the over emphasis of Vorpals, Disruptors, Banishing, Paralyzing, Wounding of Puncturing and Smiting?
DPS is a lost art, since any newb/noob/nub can build a Power5 or 6 build and make it look good.
I'll take good old fasion DPS anyday over power5/6 gimps.


I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....
I'd go for this if it was a Purple Name and the orange mobs were immune to the Power6 weapons.


A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....
I don't know where you this info. But I disagree. I'd like to think that the perfect raid needs all of the above. DPS, AC, Tactic Fighters... etc...

Overall my main concern is the Ramped up saving throws of Raid Mobs on N/H/E they really don't scale correctly and are extremely on the overboard side.

I am, Rameses!

Kraldor
06-26-2008, 05:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that orange named are immune to charm spells, but vulnerable to suggestion.

The difference being that charm spells can go on perpetually but suggestion has a set duration.

sirgog
06-27-2008, 12:09 AM
I'm pretty sure that orange named are immune to charm spells, but vulnerable to suggestion.

The difference being that charm spells can go on perpetually but suggestion has a set duration.

I can confirm this.

Orange-named are immune to all effects that say "You are charmed" when you examine the foe. (Charm Person, Charm Monster, Symbol of Persuasion). Not sure about Dominate Person.

Orange-named are susceptible to all effects that say "Your mind is susceptible to suggestion" (Suggestion, Mass Suggestion)

Sue_Dark
06-27-2008, 01:09 PM
Notice that I did not say "When did Death Ward stop the vorpal effect in this game?". I said "Since when does Death Ward stop the vorpal effect?" The answer, of course is NEVER.

The death ward spell only protects you from magical death effects, death spells, energy drain and negative energy effects. Ask the Sage.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080409a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070725a

I seem to remember this being discussed to some length in the past, with certain people beholdent to the concept that the vorpal ability is a "death atteck" or "death effect", which it clearly is NOT. Not like the devs care...they can't even figure out how to implement beholders properly after 2+ years. I guess this is off topic though.

As for the undead, I meant in the new raid(s) explorer area. I believe they cast Death Ward on themselves and you can't disrupt them.

Blanket immunities have always been a cop-out for the developers of this game to artificially inflate the difficulty level. They take away PC's abilities, which is one of the cardinal no-no's when it comes to DMing a campaign. "Boss" fights are one dimentional hack fests. Giving them spells or something that prevent effects is perfectly fine for me, as long as we have the ability to do something about it (i.e. mantle of invunerability, globe of spell immunity, spell turning, ect). That's a much more appealing encounter in my opinion.




More importantly to me....

...how is it that DEATHWARD is useable on something that is undead? They are not alive, they are animated corpses. Deathward should have no effect on them. It sure as heck doesnt help me when I'm dead. :)


And for the OP- I kinda agree. I'd love to see a raid boss with a horde of minions. Regular and orange names. All CR ranges and monster types (within reason). I think it'd be fun to have something like Desert Caravan as a raid.... make it mobile just faster than regular (read- 0% striding/haste) movement speed with randomized encounters where the boss comes in with his team and (if the players succede) retreats and regroups for the next attack. You could even tie a new city/adventure area (ala meridia) to the end of the run to giev a real reason to do the raid.... with an option once someone on server completed, for others to just zip thru or fight it out. Defend moving targets, from moving enemies, regular, orange, red and purple. No more than one red per round, no more than 10 orange and say 10-50 regs per attack.

It could be timed out so the attacks appear at certains times, vice locations, or totally randomized so you never know where you'll get jumped. Caster mobs hit the party with dominate and the caravan keeps moving, better run to catch up when you break free :). Loot at the end could be the one raid chest plus say 5 chests for 10 wagons, 4 for 8-9, and so on. (twist a little bit and make the little loot chests drop level-ized items, wagon one is L14+, 2 is 10+, 3 is 9+, 4 is 15+, 5 is 2+ just randomize them so people dont say "its ok that was the noob chest")

Tin_Dragon
06-27-2008, 02:31 PM
DDO has become increasing centered around maximizing DPS... Other types of builds (tactical, stat-damaging, AC tanking) are considered sub-par....

I would like to suggest that for the next raid, instead of one bad-ass red-name immune to everything except DPS, we get a swarm of 50-100 orange-named monsters....

A raid where high DPS, poor AC gets hurt pretty bad, and where characters with high AC or trip, stun ability can do fairly well....

Translation


I want DDO next mod designed around my builds.