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villainsimple
06-21-2008, 03:20 AM
1. Sorceror
2. Cleric
3. Rogue
4. Wizard
5. Bard
6. Paladin
7. Monk
8. Barbarian
9. Fighter
10. Ranger

Influence... environmental influence... the ability to shape the play of the game in a manner that most benefits their team and themselves.


Example: Why are Monks over Barbarians, despite Barbarians dealing so much more damage? At the highest levels consider a team full of barbarians and a team full of Monks. The monks will do somewhat less damage, yet they will last longer, consume fewer resources, be afflicted with fewer status effects and just generally be less of a drain on the party than would a barbarian.

Example 2: How can you even say Sorcerors have more environmental influence than Clerics? The standard job of the VAST majority of Clerics is to buff, cure, and and now and again deal damage and control. Conversely, a Sorceror is reshaping the battlefield during virtually every single encounter in a very significant way using a wide variety of means. Whether it is FoD'ng casters or dishing out fast cast webs, or keeping the group perma hasted. On top of this many Sorcs CAN cure/heal and so forth.

Example 3: Well, then why are Wizards who have a greater pool of spells to choose from behind Sorcs? Partially because of the above mentioned healing/curing via UMD. However, despite the Wizards plethora of spells, spells only do so much. Crowd Control, Damage, Environmental Manipulation (Think Knock/Inviso), and Buffing. From each of these pools Sorcerors can draw the most useful and effective and put them to use a way Wizards are incapable of. Certainly a Wizard has access to charm person, mass charm person, and so forth...but the Sorc can achieve roughly the same job just with suggestion. How many variations on Fireball do you really need? The Wizard may be able to select the prime spell for the moment, but their natural aptitude is inferior.

coolpenguin410
06-21-2008, 09:34 AM
Ver interesting ideas you have here. I'm curious of the point you intended to make, but felt I'd like to comment.


Example 3: Well, then why are Wizards who have a greater pool of spells to choose from behind Sorcs? Partially because of the above mentioned healing/curing via UMD. However, despite the Wizards plethora of spells, spells only do so much. Crowd Control, Damage, Environmental Manipulation (Think Knock/Inviso), and Buffing. From each of these pools Sorcerors can draw the most useful and effective and put them to use a way Wizards are incapable of. Certainly a Wizard has access to charm person, mass charm person, and so forth...but the Sorc can achieve roughly the same job just with suggestion. How many variations on Fireball do you really need? The Wizard may be able to select the prime spell for the moment, but their natural aptitude is inferior.

I disagree with this statement. Since wizards and sorcs have access to the same list of spells, they are generally on an even playing field. Honestly, I believe the wizard serves a greater utility. The only thing a sorc has over a wizard is more spell points. They need the extra spellpoints because the may have to cast the same spell several times where the wizard would just have to cast once because they have the right spell to do so.

For example: A wizard can cast Disco Ball on a group of mobs and let the hasted party take them out and have perhaps the same effect as the sorc's 3 CoC's.

villainsimple
06-21-2008, 05:33 PM
Ver interesting ideas you have here. I'm curious of the point you intended to make, but felt I'd like to comment.



I disagree with this statement. Since wizards and sorcs have access to the same list of spells, they are generally on an even playing field. Honestly, I believe the wizard serves a greater utility. The only thing a sorc has over a wizard is more spell points. They need the extra spellpoints because the may have to cast the same spell several times where the wizard would just have to cast once because they have the right spell to do so.

For example: A wizard can cast Disco Ball on a group of mobs and let the hasted party take them out and have perhaps the same effect as the sorc's 3 CoC's.



Your average Sorc at that level can do those exact same things and raise the dead while they're at it... or spam healing wandsm, or cure poison wands, etc etc... on top of the massive damage potential they possess.

adamkatt
06-21-2008, 11:43 PM
1. Sorceror
2. Cleric
3. Rogue
4. Wizard
5. Bard
6. Paladin
7. Monk
8. Barbarian
9. Fighter
10. Ranger

.

Is this Lettermans top ten?

Ghoste
06-22-2008, 02:19 AM
Example given for wizards was just using suggestion to take the place of all the wizard's charm spells. To get the same effect as mass suggestion or symbol of persuasion (not to mention mass charm monster when they finally fix that) would take several casts of suggestion to compensate for.

Just one of many examples.

villainsimple
06-22-2008, 02:27 AM
Example given for wizards was just using suggestion to take the place of all the wizard's charm spells. To get the same effect as mass suggestion or symbol of persuasion (not to mention mass charm monster when they finally fix that) would take several casts of suggestion to compensate for.

Just one of many examples.

Which a sorceror could take if they really wanted it. I did not dispute that the wizard has a wider variety of spells, and greater access to niche spells. However, that is largely the beginning and end of their usefulness. They cannot out damage the sorceror. They, in all reality, cannot crowd control as well as the sorceror (although they may have greater access to selectively useful spells... consider how fast a sorc can lay down web vs. a wizard... or FoD...which really shines when used as a "crowd control" spell when you get right down to it... I'll explain at the end.) In addition Sorcs are better able to shake off aggro via Diplo, and of course the immensely powerful UMD.


FoD... crowd control? The best use of FoD is as an answer to the opposing groups force multiplier. Think of facing six fighters and a caster. Who is the force multiplier in this picture. The caster. FoD removes that asset from the opposition. Sure, it kills...but is it better to spend that FoD on one of the additional fighters...or on the caster? Almost universally... the caster. Crowd Control.

Ghoste
06-22-2008, 02:33 AM
Of course a sorc can get the same spells, if they really want, but they have to give up something else for at least 3 days to do so.

If all you're expecting the wiz to do is nuke and basic crowd control, then the problem really is you're used to grouping with wizards who think they're sorcs.

A bunch of fighters and a caster,and you go for finger. There's my point, thinking like a sorc. A mass suggestion could turn all those fighters against the caster at once. Or get up close behind your own tanks and hit the whole group with a fear so that none of them fight back, or...

Like I said above, I just gave one example. Don't take that to mean that's the only example I could come up with. If that were the case, I'd obviously be thinking like a sorc.

Hvymetal
06-22-2008, 04:55 AM
Not to derail, but Fear is not a niche spell to me, that spell is one hell of a usefull CC spell:)

DoctorWhofan
06-22-2008, 05:34 AM
Is this Lettermans top ten?

If it is, I'm offended that clerics are #2! :p

Lorien_the_First_One
06-22-2008, 06:11 AM
A very simplistic and opinionated list that could be argued for pages...but why bother...

Side
06-22-2008, 06:14 AM
I think the op has played with one too many bad wizards :D The majority of mobs in the game are trash and can be fingered or pk'ed. but for the important ones that need debuffed or all manner of cc....you need a wizard. And, wizards get ALL metamagic so they have spell pen and damage. Better across all types of encounters

villainsimple
06-22-2008, 11:49 AM
I think the op has played with one too many bad wizards :D The majority of mobs in the game are trash and can be fingered or pk'ed. but for the important ones that need debuffed or all manner of cc....you need a wizard. And, wizards get ALL metamagic so they have spell pen and damage. Better across all types of encounters

Find me a legion of wizards that can raise the dead on a regular basis and I might agree. However, once again, everything you've listed a Sorc can do, perhaps not quite as effectively...but they can do faster and in many casts better, than a Wizard simply by virtue of fast cast and their huge spell reservoir. When a wizard lays down one web, a sorc lays down two. Quantity matters in this game.

Anastasios
06-22-2008, 12:19 PM
Maybe you need to add a bit more to your explanations before you throw things out like that...The backbone of every party is the Cleric, like it or not, if you think you can waltz on in to any high end elite quest without one, well then maybe the group better be all WF, coz I can guarantee ya, your Sorcs are not going to be the one people are relying on. So if the Sorc is that influential and can maintain and keep the part going, then the resources expended vastly outweigh what it would have been to have a cleric on board. If you think otherwise, then how can the environment be ever changing if you can't even keep your party up and going...so if it came down to having to choose between a cler and a sorc to fill up my last spot in a group and I had no cler, I think the Cleric would be the obvious answer...now if I had to choose between a wiz or a sorc, I could easily choose either or...

Darth_Sizzle
06-22-2008, 12:25 PM
Are you also forgetting that Wizards get a free Meta-Magic Feat at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, (20....) - four (so far) free feats and access to all spells at any time (given a shrine/tavern) make a Wizard a great choice, plus you can go Warforged and be able to heal yourself without umd (and be immune to all kinds of stuff, have more hp, etc..)

Sorcerers, in addition to having more spell points, have another feature (which I miss most when playing my Wiz vs Sorc) - much, much faster spell casting.

Neither class is really better than the other, they just have different things to offer - personally I like playing both.

Edit: How did Rangers get on the bottom of the list? Have you lost your mind?

Caelan
06-22-2008, 12:43 PM
i find it interesting you expect sorcs to help with healing and rezzing whether it be wands or scrolls. not that there aren't some that will, just not something i see often in practice. so... i'll gather my legion of wiz's that raise dead and you show me the legion of sorcs that regularly carry healing/rez scrolls and wands.

a smart player realizes that each class has it's strength when played intelligently. to rank them indicates a very narrow focus. it is not accident that most groups look to have a variety of classes. that is the true high ranking influence. can it be done other ways? of course, but just like i can quite capably make one martini at a time... making a pitcher is just better. :D

GlassCannon
06-22-2008, 12:49 PM
On top of this A SELECT FEW Sorcs CAN cure/heal and so forth.

You forgot that not everyone here understands pen and paper, and that over half the Sorcs on DDO do not have UMD(That being N/A on their score).

villainsimple
06-22-2008, 01:29 PM
You forgot that not everyone here understands pen and paper, and that over half the Sorcs on DDO do not have UMD(That being N/A on their score).

Stupid players does not undermine the capabilities of the class itself. Just because granny doesn't drive her porche 160 doesn't mean it can't.

Ghoste
06-22-2008, 01:37 PM
Stupid players does not undermine the capabilities of the class itself. Just because granny doesn't drive her porche 160 doesn't mean it can't.
A point others have tried to make about wizards...

Xithos
06-22-2008, 03:07 PM
Even David Letterman hates Rangers; dead last :D Oh well, thank god for multiclassing I guess. Hopefully my sorc can pick up the slack for my ranger.

maddmatt70
06-22-2008, 03:47 PM
1. Sorceror
2. Cleric
3. Rogue
4. Wizard
5. Bard
6. Paladin
7. Monk
8. Barbarian
9. Fighter
10. Ranger

Influence... environmental influence... the ability to shape the play of the game in a manner that most benefits their team and themselves.


Example: Why are Monks over Barbarians, despite Barbarians dealing so much more damage? At the highest levels consider a team full of barbarians and a team full of Monks. The monks will do somewhat less damage, yet they will last longer, consume fewer resources, be afflicted with fewer status effects and just generally be less of a drain on the party than would a barbarian.

Example 2: How can you even say Sorcerors have more environmental influence than Clerics? The standard job of the VAST majority of Clerics is to buff, cure, and and now and again deal damage and control. Conversely, a Sorceror is reshaping the battlefield during virtually every single encounter in a very significant way using a wide variety of means. Whether it is FoD'ng casters or dishing out fast cast webs, or keeping the group perma hasted. On top of this many Sorcs CAN cure/heal and so forth.

Example 3: Well, then why are Wizards who have a greater pool of spells to choose from behind Sorcs? Partially because of the above mentioned healing/curing via UMD. However, despite the Wizards plethora of spells, spells only do so much. Crowd Control, Damage, Environmental Manipulation (Think Knock/Inviso), and Buffing. From each of these pools Sorcerors can draw the most useful and effective and put them to use a way Wizards are incapable of. Certainly a Wizard has access to charm person, mass charm person, and so forth...but the Sorc can achieve roughly the same job just with suggestion. How many variations on Fireball do you really need? The Wizard may be able to select the prime spell for the moment, but their natural aptitude is inferior.

I find this a very strange list in light of the current end game quests/ raids because they are quite frankly very anti-arcane. Yes web and solid fog/acid fog are excellent spells, but the arcanes really cant kill anything with spells ( a few bats and some trogs, and a firewall against the shroud lieutenants notwithstanding) in any of the three end game raids. I kind of think the bard is the most powerful single character right now - this is kind of true in any raid where meleing is emphasized. The bard's songs add more dps then anything else and that is before they do a single other thing whether the bard heals, melees, or even ccs. A raid party without a bard is well gimping itself.

villainsimple
06-22-2008, 06:26 PM
I find this a very strange list in light of the current end game quests/ raids because they are quite frankly very anti-arcane. Yes web and solid fog/acid fog are excellent spells, but the arcanes really cant kill anything with spells ( a few bats and some trogs, and a firewall against the shroud lieutenants notwithstanding) in any of the three end game raids.

The entire game does not consist of 3 end game raids.

Tulsa_Doom
06-22-2008, 07:08 PM
No the game doesnt consist of 3 raids but really if you think old Tempest or Waterworks or any of the old quests and content that have been out are still relevant or the main reason most play then theres no reason to talk about your lists, you are off in alot things more than class. Why is rogue number 3? Trap disabling? Traps are a joke in DDO. Maybe its DPS or a combination of. Ppl responding to this thread have mentioned problems with the order ie arcanes but really its the whole of the list that bears examination. Rangers are easily the most misunderstood, badly played class out there. Ill take our guilds rangers over most others barbarians in a heartbeat. I dont know I could go on but I would rather ask for some reasoning for each of the choices and go from there.

geoffhanna
06-22-2008, 07:09 PM
If I am understanding your arguments correctly, a Rogue with UMD wins. All the spells plus the ability to deal and receive direct damage when it is desirable to do so.

And yes, I think this is a silly conclusion, but I also believe it is the logical extension of your statements.

Jesen
06-22-2008, 08:05 PM
Sure a sorc can res the entire group, a wizard will crowd control and keep the group alive so that he does not have to res :D


-Jesen

Ghoste
06-23-2008, 12:44 AM
Sure a sorc can res the entire group, a wizard will crowd control and keep the group alive so that he does not have to res :D


-Jesen
I've been in a raid group where I had to get the whole group up as a wizard. I just put them all in my backpack and snuck off to the shrine. Same results, however I spent a lot less money than a sorc in the same situation.

villainsimple
06-23-2008, 05:43 AM
Sure a sorc can res the entire group, a wizard will crowd control and keep the group alive so that he does not have to res :D


-Jesen

A sorc can do that too.

villainsimple
06-23-2008, 05:43 AM
I've been in a raid group where I had to get the whole group up as a wizard. I just put them all in my backpack and snuck off to the shrine. Same results, however I spent a lot less money than a sorc in the same situation.

And a Sorc can do this too.

Ghoste
06-23-2008, 05:45 AM
And a Sorc can do this too.
For much more money, yes. I'm talking about a situation with plenty of monsters still running around the soulstones with see invis. Not that you need all that to see the difference.

villainsimple
06-23-2008, 05:47 AM
If I am understanding your arguments correctly, a Rogue with UMD wins. All the spells plus the ability to deal and receive direct damage when it is desirable to do so.

And yes, I think this is a silly conclusion, but I also believe it is the logical extension of your statements.


The Rogue does not have the damage capacity of the Sorc, nor the team utility of the Cleric's spells as cast by said Cleric.

Resist fire is a prime example of my point. A Rogue may cast resist fire from a scroll, but it would be a level 2 spell, a Cleric casting that same spell from their repertoire would be casting a potentially much higher level version of the spell (in terms of duration and the like).

Conversely, a rogue chucking fireballs via wand or scrolls faces the same issue.


However, the Sorc has access to almost all of the important utility spells that the Cleric does... and is able to cast them at their level... while also being able to read from scrolls that have a potent at level effect... i.e. heal scrolls, res scrolls, restoration scrolls, and wands. These do not require exceptional level to be effective. There's no difficulty check required to be successful after the spell is cast.

villainsimple
06-23-2008, 05:48 AM
For much more money, yes. I'm talking about a situation with plenty of monsters still running around the soulstones with see invis. Not that you need all that to see the difference.

No, a sorc can sneak around and gather stones just as easily as any wizard can.


But look at precisely how baised you have to make the situation in favor of the wizard in order to provide an "advantage"...and even then it falls short. A human Sorc with 14 int could have conc, diplo, umd, hide and move silently.

Aesop
06-23-2008, 05:56 AM
No, a sorc can sneak around and gather stones just as easily as any wizard can.


But look at precisely how baised you have to make the situation in favor of the wizard in order to provide an "advantage"...and even then it falls short. A human Sorc with 14 int could have conc, diplo, umd, hide and move silently.

A human Sorc with a 14 base Int has 5 skill points per level


Concentration is the only inclass skill you listed the rest are cross class and thus cost double

you would run out of points at UMD

CSFurious
06-23-2008, 06:00 AM
i do not agree with your ranking of rangers

a well-built tempest ranger/fighter has heavy influence on any quest that they participate in (at least mine does :))

Aesop
06-23-2008, 06:03 AM
Your average Sorc at that level can do those exact same things and raise the dead while they're at it... or spam healing wandsm, or cure poison wands, etc etc... on top of the massive damage potential they possess.

...So can my wizard ... just saying. I might not have quite the Cha of a Sorc but I do ok I don't fail rez Scrolls and with the right gear I won't fail Heal Scrolls either...I just need the right gear.

I should Take Skill Focus: UMD maybe... dunno


Aesop

Aesop
06-23-2008, 06:09 AM
Find me a legion of wizards that can raise the dead on a regular basis and I might agree. However, once again, everything you've listed a Sorc can do, perhaps not quite as effectively...but they can do faster and in many casts better, than a Wizard simply by virtue of fast cast and their huge spell reservoir. When a wizard lays down one web, a sorc lays down two. Quantity matters in this game.

So basically this is a "please Nerf Sorcerors"? or is it "I think Wizards need more SP"?

I would say that the list is subjective given the players and the builds.... therefore mostly irrelevant to anything in the game

Kingfish
06-23-2008, 06:36 AM
No, a sorc can sneak around and gather stones just as easily as any wizard can.


But look at precisely how baised you have to make the situation in favor of the wizard in order to provide an "advantage"...and even then it falls short. A human Sorc with 14 int could have conc, diplo, umd, hide and move silently.

A well thought out UMD using pure sorc could have a buffed(w/normal end reward drops), a 30 UMD(might be higher with tomes and raid items), but that is what you are basing this off of, A classes POTINTAL. Reality is, the MAJORITY of the players playing sorcs didn't give much thought to UMD when building their characters. I know a LOT of sorcs and only 1 has UMD maxed out.

On the other hand, if you are wanting to consider potential...flip the scores. Your sorcs 14 INT & 18 CHR, flip that over to the wizard, 18 INT and 14 CHR. With the exact same equipment in place, the Wizard is ONLY +4 off the UMD of what the Sorc can have(24 vs. 32 CHR). Besides, the wiz could have a couple other skills maxed out as well as all the free meta-magic feats.

I just thought it was worth mentioning if you are really going for the potential of the class and not how MOST sorcs are built/played.

Aranticus
06-23-2008, 06:57 AM
i bet the OP only run low level toons.... or low level quests.... and absolutely have no idea of the endgame

how many players you know at L16 frequently runs low level quests? what you can do is to look at the lfm and see the number of groups trying to run the 2 new raids and shroud

no one at L16 plays 95% of the quests, they focus on 5% of the quests which is HOUND, VISION, SHROUD, DEVILS, RAINBOW, RITUAL, COALESENCE and DUST

in hound, vision and shroud, the loss of clerics almost always results in wipes. a caster can be kept dead for sometime, but a lost cleric would mean the meatshields toppling over and thus no one to hold the agro of the hard hitters

in devils, coalesence and rainbow, casters have more viability with their insta kill spells but so are clerics with theirs

in ritual and dust, casters are lords in there, no arguement from me

and seriously, a rogue placed that high in a ranking and rangers at the bottom just goes to show the shallowness of your post.

Thame
06-23-2008, 07:02 AM
Your average Sorc at that level can do those exact same things and raise the dead while they're at it... or spam healing wandsm, or cure poison wands, etc etc... on top of the massive damage potential they possess.

My wizard.........yes wizard can cast raise dead, heal, resurrection from scrolls also, and NOT at the cost of int which is 34 FYI. Oh and hes pure wiz I might add. And my damage is just as high as a sorc. With items my SP almost equals a good sorc build. AND i have more spells available so :p

Oran_Lathor
06-23-2008, 07:17 AM
This thread is amusing all get up. I disagree with virtually of the OPs rankings. It almost looks like he just made a random list and then assigned a random meaning to it.

Whatever, anywho, I agree with others who have posted here about the never-ending wizard vs. sorceror question: they are both entirely viable The thing about sorcerors is, they are easier. You just cap your charisma, take FoD and you're good to go. FoD FoD FoD ad infinitum. I'm not saying that all sorcerors do this, but it makes for a passable sorceror in most situations. A wizard who does the same should be playing a sorceror instead.

Oh, and about the whole "ooo sorcs can rez" point: endgame, everyone can rez. My wizard has 3 true rez clickies and a rez ring (plus a buffed 32 umd for rez scrolls... I've been carrying a stack of 10 since mod6 hit and have yet to need to use one).

Oran_Lathor
06-23-2008, 07:19 AM
My wizard.........yes wizard can cast raise dead, heal, resurrection from scrolls also, and NOT at the cost of int which is 34 FYI. Oh and hes pure wiz I might add. And my damage is just as high as a sorc. With items my SP almost equals a good sorc build. AND i have more spells available so :p

Amen, Thame. My 38 intelligence, straight wizard rezzes just fine. Or, rather, he would, except that he has a wide enough variety of spells on hand that he never seem to find himself needing to. ;)

Caelan
06-23-2008, 12:21 PM
This thread is amusing all get up......

....Oh, and about the whole "ooo sorcs can rez" point: endgame, everyone can rez. My wizard has 3 true rez clickies and a rez ring (plus a buffed 32 umd for rez scrolls... I've been carrying a stack of 10 since mod6 hit and have yet to need to use one).

interesting point... and i agree. my fighter can also rez. and deal out dps. and heal herself. (read rez ring (not just one)... standard fighter weapons.... and healing potions.) my paladin has high umd, can deal out decent enough dps with good gear, has sp and lay hands to heal self and others and rez, plus can use many scrolls and wands regardless of arcane or divine. if you are smart player, you carry these things. you help the cleric by using heal pots and protection pots. you help the caster by drawing aggro. etc etc.

it truly comes down to playing smart. be prepared. have the right gear. and don't believe everything you read on the forums (oh wait... this is on the forums... so do we believe it or not? now i'm so confused!!!!):p

McBadger
06-23-2008, 12:33 PM
Before you get too passionate you might want to review the ops posting record and see what you're really participating in.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-23-2008, 01:20 PM
More than two pages of posts.....and I still don't know what the OP's point is. :(

Did you just rank all the classes in order of influencing a battlefield? That is a vague statement.....
But I would argue that your list is way incorrect.

I probably think Sorcs should be on top.
IMO they are the most powerful class. And their high Cha mean they usually have a decent UMD...which makes them versitile.

Clerics number 2? Why?
Most clerics just buff and heal. Buffs are only needed by those who cannot cast them themselves. Healing is only needed for those who get hurt.
Then you have the people who think Blade Barrier makes them a battle cleric.
BB is nice...but it's one spell.
Greater Command and Sound Burst....are great CC spells.
But I would rank Clerics a lot lower....especially the average cleric.

You underestimate Wizards.
More spells than Sorcs means more buffs and greater variety.
More feats means greater variety as well..........and prob greater spell penetration.

Monks?
Not as bad as many say, but I have yet to see one that really impressed me.

Ftrs?
Some are great. Most are just there.....somewhere in the group.

Pal
Some have great healing and UMD.
They may be behind most people's expectations for DPS, but a great Pallie can really make a huge differance...although they usually don't shine until a cleric is missing or out of action.

Rogue
UMD is nice.....but usually only comes into play when the cleric is dead.
Sneak Attack is great! But I haven't seen anyone looking for more Rogues in a group......ever.

Bards
Good.

Barbarian number 8?!
The zerging raging high kill count, destroy everything barbarian at the bottom of your list?!
I'm not a big Brb fan, but come on.......
If a class has agro 90% of the time, they are definately influencing the battlefield.

And you have Rangers last......
The bad ranger in WW that everyone hates is the guy who fired off an arrow and made everything chase him around all over the place.........you may not like it, but he just influenced tha battle field more than anyone else.
Now......the good rangers.
Pit Fiend killers (non cheating)
DQ killers.
2WFers who out kill Barbarians.
Ranging pillars in VON6.
Ranging the end boss in Madstone (most people have forgotten this one)
And then there's that wand whipping thing.
Isn't it about time Rangers got some respect?

Equipment matters a whole lot more than build.(or class)
Player matters more than build.

Yes, magic is very powerful. Sorcs are very powerful.
But I've seen every class dominate one group or another.
And I think you really underestimate certain classes.

Plus I don't understand why you give Clerics and Rogues such high marks.
(Cleric and Rogue lovers, plz don't attack me here......I love you guys and think Battleclerics and DPS rogues are way underestimated.....but it's more an individual thing.....the exception, not the rule)

DoctorWhofan
06-23-2008, 04:55 PM
Here's my list:


1. Clerics-healers buffers and all around useful in every quest.
1.Sorcerers- nuke'em killers and (if UMD'd) raisers
1. Wizards-flexiblity, flexibilty, flexibility. Just pops in the tavern for the charm mass spell.
1. Fighters-middle of the line tankage
1. Rangers-TWF gods. Nasty ranged combatants
1. Monks- up and coming tanks. I see a bright future for them
1. Barbarians- Uber godkilling machines
1. Rogues- trap filled dungeons on elite. yoo hooo!
1. Paladins- last man standing
1. Bards- tanks, or buffers, or healers. But the music is the same!


I am talking about the class, not the build. NOBODY IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER AND EVERYONE BRINGS SOMETHING TO THE TABLE!!!

Assigning a "list" based on what you think is the best class and not looking at the game (and party) as a whole is silly. Any and all are welcomed to my party.

ChildrenofBodom
06-23-2008, 05:01 PM
How the hell does a fighter influence a party more than a ranger....

Fighters suck at pretty much everything but intimidate.

MrCow
06-23-2008, 05:12 PM
Ranging the end boss in Madstone (most people have forgotten this one)

Hehe, I remember ranging that big ol' dead seer down before the group got to the top of the spire once and I heard someone exclaim "The seer isn't hear, ***, the quest bugged on us!"

All classes when played to their full potential all have contributing factors to the battlefield. The question is often: Is your mind open enough to discover what you can do?

Boldrin
06-23-2008, 05:21 PM
Who made this list, obviously they haven't a clue...

geoffhanna
06-23-2008, 05:24 PM
The Rogue does not have the damage capacity of the Sorc, nor the team utility of the Cleric's spells as cast by said Cleric.

Resist fire is a prime example of my point. A Rogue may cast resist fire from a scroll, but it would be a level 2 spell, a Cleric casting that same spell from their repertoire would be casting a potentially much higher level version of the spell (in terms of duration and the like).

Conversely, a rogue chucking fireballs via wand or scrolls faces the same issue.

However, the Sorc has access to almost all of the important utility spells that the Cleric does... and is able to cast them at their level... while also being able to read from scrolls that have a potent at level effect... i.e. heal scrolls, res scrolls, restoration scrolls, and wands. These do not require exceptional level to be effective. There's no difficulty check required to be successful after the spell is cast.

Dude you are arguing both for and against the same point in the same post. While such flexibility is appreciated, and somewhat humorous, it does not really advance a logical discussion. You aren't really looking for a debate, right?

Either scrolls are an acceptable use of "battlefield shaping influence" or they are not. And if they are, a rogue can do all that plus melee and sneak.

p.s. not grinding an axe here, I have no UMD rogues. Just saying.

Arianrhod
06-23-2008, 05:40 PM
A very simplistic and opinionated list that could be argued for pages...but why bother...

QFT :D

GlassCannon
06-24-2008, 01:51 AM
Clear bias is clear. Opinionated individual sighted, putting on Ignore List.


Evacuating thread for fear of Troll Breeding.

DoctorWhofan
06-24-2008, 01:38 PM
Before you get too passionate you might want to review the ops posting record and see what you're really participating in.

err right. I just noticed this. He is on my big green list with a flametongue standing by.

amorelus
07-28-2008, 01:03 PM
It doesn't matter which class is better or not if built right.

What matters is who hits who first.

If a sorc attacks a wiz before he/she can react. the wiz will die and vice versa.

Any class that hits another before being able to defend themselves will kill or severly hurt the other.

Hendrik
07-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Here's my list:


1. Clerics-healers buffers and all around useful in every quest.
1.Sorcerers- nuke'em killers and (if UMD'd) raisers
1. Wizards-flexiblity, flexibilty, flexibility. Just pops in the tavern for the charm mass spell.
1. Fighters-middle of the line tankage
1. Rangers-TWF gods. Nasty ranged combatants
1. Monks- up and coming tanks. I see a bright future for them
1. Barbarians- Uber godkilling machines
1. Rogues- trap filled dungeons on elite. yoo hooo!
1. Paladins- last man standing
1. Bards- tanks, or buffers, or healers. But the music is the same!


I am talking about the class, not the build. NOBODY IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER AND EVERYONE BRINGS SOMETHING TO THE TABLE!!!

Assigning a "list" based on what you think is the best class and not looking at the game (and party) as a whole is silly. Any and all are welcomed to my party.

Great statement DrWhoFan!

/respect

Issip
07-28-2008, 03:46 PM
1. Sorceror
2. Cleric
3. Rogue
4. Wizard
5. Bard
6. Paladin
7. Monk
8. Barbarian
9. Fighter
10. Ranger

Influence... environmental influence... the ability to shape the play of the game in a manner that most benefits their team and themselves.


Example: Why are Monks over Barbarians, despite Barbarians dealing so much more damage? At the highest levels consider a team full of barbarians and a team full of Monks. The monks will do somewhat less damage, yet they will last longer, consume fewer resources, be afflicted with fewer status effects and just generally be less of a drain on the party than would a barbarian.

Example 2: How can you even say Sorcerors have more environmental influence than Clerics? The standard job of the VAST majority of Clerics is to buff, cure, and and now and again deal damage and control. Conversely, a Sorceror is reshaping the battlefield during virtually every single encounter in a very significant way using a wide variety of means. Whether it is FoD'ng casters or dishing out fast cast webs, or keeping the group perma hasted. On top of this many Sorcs CAN cure/heal and so forth.

Example 3: Well, then why are Wizards who have a greater pool of spells to choose from behind Sorcs? Partially because of the above mentioned healing/curing via UMD. However, despite the Wizards plethora of spells, spells only do so much. Crowd Control, Damage, Environmental Manipulation (Think Knock/Inviso), and Buffing. From each of these pools Sorcerors can draw the most useful and effective and put them to use a way Wizards are incapable of. Certainly a Wizard has access to charm person, mass charm person, and so forth...but the Sorc can achieve roughly the same job just with suggestion. How many variations on Fireball do you really need? The Wizard may be able to select the prime spell for the moment, but their natural aptitude is inferior.

First off bad idea "ranking" classes in the first place. Second off are you sure this isn't a list of your toons in the order of which you leveled them or something? All that **** about how monks are more important than barbarians and rangers are at the bottom? I take it you either have never played a ranger or played one really poorly and never got to level 12.

I'm not going to try re-ordering your list or arguing about it's accuracy as it is so meaningless in the first place.

Two thumbs down to the OP. Find something constructive to rant about.

JakLee7
07-28-2008, 04:00 PM
1. Paladin
2. Bard
3. Fighter
4. Rogue
5. Barb
6. Ranger
7. Sorc
8. Monk

this is not the order of best to worst, this is the order I made characters (not all are around anymore, in fact really only aroun now - you guess which ones)
:P

Impaqt
07-28-2008, 04:11 PM
THe Character classes by themselves have very little do do with influence.

WHo is behind the character, and how the character is equipted has FAR more signifigance.

I findit amusing that SOrcs get Ranked up top because they cast fast and Can heal/umd stuff....

Sorc UMD is a luxory skill. It takes a pretty dedicated build and Quality player behind it to pull that off.... (Especially if we are talking about No Fail Heal/Ressurection scrolls)

Lets Twink Out a Barbarian... 600+ Hit points, 44+ STR, Dual Wounding/Punctuing Rapiers...

Whatst he better group?

Uber Barb and Average Sorc OR Average Barb and Uber Sorc?

I'll Take the Uber Barb every day of the week and Twice on Sundays.