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View Full Version : Things DDO Could Learn from Fourth Edition.



villainsimple
06-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Note: These changes my require, literally a complete respec of each character (as in you're reduced to level one and rebuild your character from there on up to your previous level as if you started with the experience you had prior to the respec). Further it would require a great deal of tweaking and balancing. I do not disagree. However, in the long run I feel these changes would augment the game considerably.


1. Skill Revamp
New Skills
Atheletics: Jump/Swimming
Acrobatics: Tumble/Balance
Stealth: Hide/Move Silently
Thievery: Disable Traps/Lockpicking
Perception: Spot/Listen/Search

Old Skills
Heal Skill: Change to allow the usage of healing kits to cure poisons and diseases, and provide magical healing kits capable of curing even more potent status effects.
UMD: Get rid of it.


2. Player Independence
Provide players with the ability to heal themselves through the usage of "healing surges" or similar ability. This reduces the dependence on Clerics to succeed on quests without spending a fortune on wands and or pots.


3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

Elaril
06-20-2008, 09:59 PM
3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

That, sir, is impossible.

captain1z
06-20-2008, 10:04 PM
I like 4th edition........... I like DDO based on 3.5.............I dont like WoW.

Putting 4th edition into DDO makes DDO very much like WoW.

The way it is now it has a flavor all its own.

I dont think 4th ed transfers well to DDO without becoming a WoW clone.

It would make a great Turn Based Strategy game though.



That being said.......... the new dwarf girly pics are nice.......... in fact, every monster that has a female variant is more distinctly different in appearance. Check out the bugbears and hobs and stuff.

villainsimple
06-20-2008, 10:06 PM
That, sir, is impossible.

Have you seen the new dwarven women? *shudder*. A plumper jumpers wet dream.

mmurphy1968
06-21-2008, 01:56 AM
plumper jumpers

That is the funniest darn thing I have read in ages. I laughed so hard I started to cry.

villainsimple
06-21-2008, 03:06 AM
That is the funniest darn thing I have read in ages. I laughed so hard I started to cry.

I made that up on the spot, swear to god.

ariel7
06-21-2008, 03:44 AM
I made that up on the spot, swear to god.

lol it's bloody brilliant!

The hardcore baseball fans amongst us will wonder what Mark Grace would have done batting .235 in Kundarak League baseball lol


That, sir, is impossible.

lol, yeah how does a beard look hot on a woman?

Hvymetal
06-21-2008, 07:32 AM
lol, yeah how does a beard look hot on a woman?

If you light it on fire?

coolpenguin410
06-21-2008, 09:15 AM
1. Skill Revamp
New Skills
Atheletics: Jump/Swimming
Acrobatics: Tumble/Balance
Stealth: Hide/Move Silently
Thievery: Disable Traps/Lockpicking
Perception: Spot/Listen/Search

I like this in 4e, but not for DDO. That's a huge revamp and I dislike the lack of skillpoints in DDO.


Heal Skill: Change to allow the usage of healing kits to cure poisons and diseases, and provide magical healing kits capable of curing even more potent status effects.

I like this a lot. In fact, by PnP rules, this should be possible for the most part. It shouldn't be too hard to implement. Healer selects a character subject to disease/poison and gives a bonus to that person's next fortitude save.


UMD: Get rid of it.

Just no.


2. Player Independence
Provide players with the ability to heal themselves through the usage of "healing surges" or similar ability. This reduces the dependence on Clerics to succeed on quests without spending a fortune on wands and or pots.

Self-sufficiency is pretty important as it is and most players find a way to be so, despite their builds. Making it more accesible could not be a bad thing, but would require too many rule cahnges.


3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

I never liked dwarves, so I'm not touching that one.

Uska
06-21-2008, 09:28 AM
I like most of 4E but dont like casters in it really they went to far in balancing them in my mind, and as to healing surges you can only use one per encounter and you would run out so fast so they would have to bump them up by a huge percentage so I really dont think 4E transfers here well at all, its a good pnp game and maybe a good turn based strategy game but not a mmo

Bekki
06-21-2008, 09:42 AM
3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

HAVEN'T THEY ALWAYS BEEN!? LOL :D


All kidding aside,
they misbelief that Dwarven women have beards has been a long standing myth in
Dungeons and Dragons.

This is not the case, in fact, if you have (or truly feel the need to buy just to find out)
Take a look at the book Dwarves by the company Role Aids ( No not the Antacid :D)

It Dispells alot of Myths concerning Dwarves.

Also you can check out some of the Mythgar series of books by Dennis L. Mckiernan.

He bases alot of his characters on LOTR by JRR Tolkien
and in those Dwarven felamles do not have beards and are in fact "quite hot".

So much so that the Dwarves are Highly overprotective of them.

Just a few fun facts for you this morning...


HAVE FUN!!!

And see you in Stormreach.

Uska
06-21-2008, 10:07 AM
HAVEN'T THEY ALWAYS BEEN!? LOL :D


All kidding aside,
they misbelief that Dwarven women have beards has been a long standing myth in
Dungeons and Dragons.

This is not the case, in fact, if you have (or truly feel the need to buy just to find out)
Take a look at the book Dwarves by the company Role Aids ( No not the Antacid :D)

It Dispells alot of Myths concerning Dwarves.

Also you can check out some of the Mythgar series of books by Dennis L. Mckiernan.

He bases alot of his characters on LOTR by JRR Tolkien
and in those Dwarven felamles do not have beards and are in fact "quite hot".

So much so that the Dwarves are Highly overprotective of them.

Just a few fun facts for you this morning...


HAVE FUN!!!

And see you in Stormreach.


your sir are incorrect gygax always said they had them so legends or no in dnd they should and role aids stuff is junk
gygax opinon only only that counts in dnd as the dwarves there in are his so in his world they did have them.

EspyLacopa
06-21-2008, 10:11 AM
Self-sufficiency is pretty important as it is and most players find a way to be so, despite their builds. Making it more accesible could not be a bad thing, but would require too many rule cahnges.

I'd also like to point out that Healing Surges, in and of themselves, do nothing.

Madhatternynja2007
06-21-2008, 10:33 AM
Really Gygax's opinion is the only one that counts, hmmm, interesting. Because I do believe that Gygax took his information from Tolkien, I could be wrong, has happened before. But to "steal", I use this term VERY VERY VERY loosely, an idea from someone else and then modify the information is still "stealing". Tolkien is THE founder of all things Mythic and Magicial, he was the first to produce a copy of anything that contained information on all the mystical creations found in almost every game, so without Tolkien where would Gygax gotten his information. Yes the fact that he modified it to suit his needs and his tastes is probably what you mean and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out that Gygax who is a great man and created one the things I enjoy most, no life outside of gaming, got his information from Tolkien who created the mythical universe as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, but merely my opinion or a lot of misinformation I have recieved on my end. As for 4e becoming part of DDO, no thanks.

thumps
06-21-2008, 11:04 AM
Note: These changes my require, literally a complete respec of each character (as in you're reduced to level one and rebuild your character from there on up to your previous level as if you started with the experience you had prior to the respec). Further it would require a great deal of tweaking and balancing. I do not disagree. However, in the long run I feel these changes would augment the game considerably.


1. Skill Revamp
New Skills
Atheletics: Jump/Swimming
Acrobatics: Tumble/Balance
Stealth: Hide/Move Silently
Thievery: Disable Traps/Lockpicking
Perception: Spot/Listen/Search

Old Skills
Heal Skill: Change to allow the usage of healing kits to cure poisons and diseases, and provide magical healing kits capable of curing even more potent status effects.
UMD: Get rid of it.


2. Player Independence
Provide players with the ability to heal themselves through the usage of "healing surges" or similar ability. This reduces the dependence on Clerics to succeed on quests without spending a fortune on wands and or pots.


3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW


Why? are you having problems playing the game ? ask for help im sure people will help you

Scipio
06-21-2008, 11:37 AM
Really Gygax's opinion is the only one that counts, hmmm, interesting. Because I do believe that Gygax took his information from Tolkien, I could be wrong, has happened before. But to "steal", I use this term VERY VERY VERY loosely, an idea from someone else and then modify the information is still "stealing". Tolkien is THE founder of all things Mythic and Magicial, he was the first to produce a copy of anything that contained information on all the mystical creations found in almost every game, so without Tolkien where would Gygax gotten his information. Yes the fact that he modified it to suit his needs and his tastes is probably what you mean and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out that Gygax who is a great man and created one the things I enjoy most, no life outside of gaming, got his information from Tolkien who created the mythical universe as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, but merely my opinion or a lot of misinformation I have recieved on my end. As for 4e becoming part of DDO, no thanks.

So Tolkien himself stole to right.... cause most of his world is from legends. Dwarfs, elves, goblins, trolls are all legendary critters. His land to the west is similar to Avalon. Tolkien though did write certain things in a different way... dwarve instead of dwarf and other cool literature changes.

Uska
06-21-2008, 01:05 PM
Really Gygax's opinion is the only one that counts, hmmm, interesting. Because I do believe that Gygax took his information from Tolkien, I could be wrong, has happened before. But to "steal", I use this term VERY VERY VERY loosely, an idea from someone else and then modify the information is still "stealing". Tolkien is THE founder of all things Mythic and Magicial, he was the first to produce a copy of anything that contained information on all the mystical creations found in almost every game, so without Tolkien where would Gygax gotten his information. Yes the fact that he modified it to suit his needs and his tastes is probably what you mean and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out that Gygax who is a great man and created one the things I enjoy most, no life outside of gaming, got his information from Tolkien who created the mythical universe as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, but merely my opinion or a lot of misinformation I have recieved on my end. As for 4e becoming part of DDO, no thanks.

Its the only one that counts as far as dnd well classic dnd anyways 3.0 and 4E being fairly different games.

KristovK
06-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Really Gygax's opinion is the only one that counts, hmmm, interesting. Because I do believe that Gygax took his information from Tolkien, I could be wrong, has happened before. But to "steal", I use this term VERY VERY VERY loosely, an idea from someone else and then modify the information is still "stealing". Tolkien is THE founder of all things Mythic and Magicial, he was the first to produce a copy of anything that contained information on all the mystical creations found in almost every game, so without Tolkien where would Gygax gotten his information. Yes the fact that he modified it to suit his needs and his tastes is probably what you mean and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out that Gygax who is a great man and created one the things I enjoy most, no life outside of gaming, got his information from Tolkien who created the mythical universe as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, but merely my opinion or a lot of misinformation I have recieved on my end. As for 4e becoming part of DDO, no thanks.

Actually...Mr Gygax didn't steal, borrow or even use Mr Tolkien's works in the works he copyrighted as Chainmail and then as Dungeons and Dragons. True, the original subject material Mr Gygax used as the basis for what he copyrighted DID use Mr Tolkien's works, but Mr Gygax was unfamiliar with those works at the time, and he even confirmed that in an interview once a long time ago.

Mr Tolkien himself didn't create the terms he used in his works such as elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs and so on, these are all long established terms from the various myths and histories of the European continent, and some of those terms, such as orc, date back well over 2000 years, being used in ancient greek manuscripts.

Now, as to the OP...you want Turbine to change DDO over to the 4th Ed rules huh?

Ok...so..no more Sorcerers or Monks..aren't in the first PHB after all. And no more Warforged, not in the PHB either currently, but they are in the MM, so I guess we could let them slide? Any other classes or races I missed not in the current 4th PHB?

Someone isn't thinking things through very well.

Delacroix21
06-21-2008, 05:24 PM
GREAT things to learn from 4th edition! Always thought hide/move silently being separate was dumb as who takes just one? hehe


4th Edition is a great fix to DnD in my opnion as 3.5 rules and classes were just way to easy to abuse and lead to allot of arguments and confusion during general gameplay.

Tanka
06-21-2008, 05:53 PM
Why? are you having problems playing the game ? ask for help im sure people will help you
villain has wanted to change the game entirely ever since starting.

It's kind of a meme at this point.

villainsimple
06-21-2008, 06:06 PM
villain has wanted to change the game entirely ever since starting.

It's kind of a meme at this point.

I fail to see how altering a game that already has considerable fourth edition elements in such a way that it assumes more of the most beneficial elements of fourth edition is a bad thing. I only wish to change that which most needs changing.

Hide/Move silently for example... spending gobs of skill points for essentially the same function. Lockpicking and Trap Disabling. So ona nd so forth.

Further, augmenting the largely useless heal skill by providing a more active purpose for it ISN'T a bad idea...especially if it saves Clerics spell points.

Jondallar
06-21-2008, 07:37 PM
I fail to see how altering a game that already has considerable fourth edition elements in such a way that it assumes more of the most beneficial elements of fourth edition is a bad thing. I only wish to change that which most needs changing.

Hide/Move silently for example... spending gobs of skill points for essentially the same function. Lockpicking and Trap Disabling. So ona nd so forth.

Further, augmenting the largely useless heal skill by providing a more active purpose for it ISN'T a bad idea...especially if it saves Clerics spell points.

even if i got a complete respec beginning with only race and name chosen and complete respec from there b/c i would have a ton extra unused skill points and wasted points put into intell to used umd and the search/dd/ol skills. the problem would remain that there would be way to many dev resourses wasted on this and we would have another 6 month wait to get 8 raid items and 2 raids that take 30 min to complete the first day they are unlocked.

LOUDRampart
06-22-2008, 04:17 AM
I would like climb walls and use ropes be added to the skill list.

But then much of the game would need a revamp, at least they would need to define what walls could be climbed and the min skill level. Same for rope use...

Uska
06-22-2008, 06:02 AM
I fail to see how altering a game that already has considerable fourth edition elements in such a way that it assumes more of the most beneficial elements of fourth edition is a bad thing. I only wish to change that which most needs changing.

Hide/Move silently for example... spending gobs of skill points for essentially the same function. Lockpicking and Trap Disabling. So ona nd so forth.

Further, augmenting the largely useless heal skill by providing a more active purpose for it ISN'T a bad idea...especially if it saves Clerics spell points.

You would have to rework the whole skill system to really do your idea as 4E's system is very different people would have much lower skill levels in 4E then they do here so then the devs would have to go in and change everything that required skills like trap and lock dcs its just a bad idea, oh you think we should take away evasion from all rogues and multi-class rogues? as well as rangers ? its not a free feat for them anymore. Give up on 4E here its just not feasible.

Grond
06-22-2008, 08:41 AM
I fail to see how altering a game that already has considerable fourth edition elements in such a way that it assumes more of the most beneficial elements of fourth edition is a bad thing. I only wish to change that which most needs changing.

Hide/Move silently for example... spending gobs of skill points for essentially the same function. Lockpicking and Trap Disabling. So ona nd so forth.

Further, augmenting the largely useless heal skill by providing a more active purpose for it ISN'T a bad idea...especially if it saves Clerics spell points.

But your skill groupings are quite diferent. That's one of the things I dislike about 4e.

Swimming and jumping are completely different, no reason at all they should be grouped together. It seems kind of silly to me that I could make a warrior from the desert, give him high athletics because he likes to jump onto his camel, and that automaticly makes him a good swimmer as well. :)


Same thing with tumbling and balance. I've got a kid that's a monster tumbler, double layouts, full ins... her air sense is incredible. Balance beam is her nemesis. Conversly, I've got a couple kids that stick to the beam like glue, but tumble like they're stuck in the mud.

Picking locks and disabling traps are pretty different as well. Try them sometime. :) There's a reason they had different stat bonuses.

I could see a case for hide and move silently being grouped together, although from a bonus standpoint it makes things messier. For example, a camoflage jacket makes it alot easier to hide in the woods, but does nothing for your ability to move silently.

Same thing with some of the perception skills. I don't see someone with great eyesight being able to hear infinitly well.

I've played games with very broad interpretations of skills before, and I have to say I like them less. I don't think skills should be lumped together to the point that everyone can pick up every skill: You should have to make choices, and a large skillset without enough points to get everything is one way to ensure that every character of a certain type is not identical to every other character of a certain type.


And, as I already pointed out, the broader you make a skill category, the more specific you have to make bonuses. So while you trade simplicity on the character stat sheet, you add complexity to the items. Instead of '+5 to jump,' you get '+5 to athletics when used for jumping.'

EspyLacopa
06-22-2008, 09:17 AM
But your skill groupings are quite diferent. That's one of the things I dislike about 4e.

Swimming and jumping are completely different, no reason at all they should be grouped together. It seems kind of silly to me that I could make a warrior from the desert, give him high athletics because he likes to jump onto his camel, and that automaticly makes him a good swimmer as well. :)
Just to point this out: Two lv30 characters, one maxed out Str(race with the bonus included) and trained in Athletics, the other isn't trained and started out with 10 str:

+29 vs +16: The guy who isn't trained in Athletics can swim with a +16 bonus on the check. This would allow swimming at half speed in Rough water automatically, and frequently able to do so in Stormy water. This untrained low str character would never sink or drown unless his hands were bound or some other such effect.

You're playing a heroic adventurer in 4e D&D: It's generally assumed you learn little things like How to Swim once you start going out into the world ^_^

More to the point, swimming in calm water is a DC10. This isn't a hard thing to do, even in 3.5. If you're a starting character with a 16 str, you'd have +3 Swim without any training, and so could swim in calm water, without ever having swam before, without too much trouble (though there is risk of failure. . .but not much. Would have to repeatedly roll a 1 or 2 on the swim check)

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 11:44 AM
I like most of 4E but dont like casters in it really they went to far in balancing them in my mind, and as to healing surges you can only use one per encounter and you would run out so fast so they would have to bump them up by a huge percentage so I really dont think 4E transfers here well at all, its a good pnp game and maybe a good turn based strategy game but not a mmo

I'd agree with the Wizard, but not the Cleric or Warlock. While the 4E Cleric isn't as powerful as the 3E Cleric, the 4E Cleric is far more interesting, dynamic, and doesn't have to spend his turn just healing. Of course that's my opinion of the Cleric. The Warlock got a huge boost, while the Wizard took it to the pants. Wizards are still very effective. At high level it's quite impressive the spells they can toss round after round, encounter after encounter. They aren't the one man armies they once were, but they now contribute on a much more even level relative to all the other classes when comparing to 3.5 (Cleric and Druid excluded from the 3.5 comparison).

Also, I agree with the OP's proposals. 4E > 3.5 Skills. By a mile. Except the UMD thing. Too many characters are tied to the skill. And yes, Dwarven women are now hot in 4E.

EspyLacopa
06-25-2008, 12:11 PM
By the by, people keep refering to Dwarven Women as hot in 4E, but I wonder if they're keeping in mind that they aren't Humans, they're Dwarves. Dwarves likely won't have the same standards of hotness as us humans.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 12:26 PM
no

Yaga_Nub
06-25-2008, 12:49 PM
UMD: Get rid of it.

Those, sir, are fighting words and I will kill you until you are dead for uttering them.


2. Player Independence
Provide players with the ability to heal themselves through the usage of "healing surges" or similar ability. This reduces the dependence on Clerics to succeed on quests without spending a fortune on wands and or pots.

If you want a game that DISCOURAGES grouping and roles then by all means go play 4.0 or any other MMO. Leave my beloved DDO alone.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 01:08 PM
let me explain No.

While 4.0 has good ideas, and whether or not I like the system is moot. Stopping the game, redo ALL my characters, no enhancement system, changing the stats around, re classing, new spell thingees, refeating, not to mention the leveling is totally at a different scale, I'd might as well delete my entire two years of playing and start again, like a new game.

but not new.

16 toons starting over again. All that work on Trissa and Kleo and my others gone down the drain.

if it happens, WoW will have me back. At least the boring push the button, wait, wait, wait, works in that game.

So, in a word, NO.


Female Dwarves can be fixed easily in the next graphics upgrade. For all the male hormonal pleasure.

Thelmallen
06-25-2008, 01:40 PM
lol it's bloody brilliant!
The hardcore baseball fans amongst us will wonder what Mark Grace would have done batting .235 in Kundarak League baseball lol


LMAO! You know he would be slump-busting and chain smoking the whole way through it!

villainsimple
06-25-2008, 01:53 PM
let me explain No.

While 4.0 has good ideas, and whether or not I like the system is moot. Stopping the game, redo ALL my characters, no enhancement system, changing the stats around, re classing, new spell thingees, refeating, not to mention the leveling is totally at a different scale, I'd might as well delete my entire two years of playing and start again, like a new game.

but not new.

16 toons starting over again. All that work on Trissa and Kleo and my others gone down the drain.

if it happens, WoW will have me back. At least the boring push the button, wait, wait, wait, works in that game.

So, in a word, NO.


Female Dwarves can be fixed easily in the next graphics upgrade. For all the male hormonal pleasure.


Did you even READ what I wrote?

You know... and I'm not kidding here... I actually whispered an expletive and then made a statement that several people around me queried about. They asked me why I would question someones intelligence in such an emotive manner. I hadn't meant for them to hear it... but heard it they did, which required me to explain why I would say blank blank, this girl is blanking stupid.

I explained to them that there were certain elements of fourth edition I approved of, not the entire game... just certain elements. How I had mentioned that DDO could adopt some of those elements as it would improve the game considerably... elements pertaining towards skills mostly as I felt that was one place where fourth edition really got it right.

They were following along, but still uncertain as to why I would curse at someone in such a way.

So I explained further...

The first argument the girl had made was just "No"... didn't actually make an argument, or really have a position outside of no. However, in a later argument she flew into hysterics arguing as though I had suggested making a full on conversion of 4.0, which of course I hadn't. In fact, I'd only suggested making a few alterations to three aspects of the game. One would reduce cleric dependency.... the other would consolidate skills. This said nothing about spells, saving throws, character progression or much anything else.

And that, I explained, was why I whispered blank blank, this girl is blanking stupid. I use blank blank as I do not wish to publicly take the Lords name in vain. I have to be pretty upset to curse, but ignorance has always upset me.

When people shriek at you without even bothering to read what you wrote... yes, it troubles me.

villainsimple
06-25-2008, 01:57 PM
If you want a game that DISCOURAGES grouping and roles then by all means go play 4.0 or any other MMO. Leave my beloved DDO alone.

JU R WRONG. JU WANT HEELNG SURGS TAK OWR JOBS!!!111!!!

THAR KAN B NO GRUPS WITOWT KLERKZ!1!!!!!1!!!

JU JUST WANT TO DISKURAGE GRUPING!!!!!1!!!

LEVE MY DDOOZ ALONEZ!1!!!!!


Has anyone seen the movie "Idiocracy"?

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:01 PM
If you want a game that DISCOURAGES grouping and roles then by all means go play 4.0 or any other MMO. Leave my beloved DDO alone.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? 4E by far encourages teamwork, far better than anything in 3E. You absolutely have to work together...unless dying is your goal. Sure teamwork was key in 3E, but in 4E it's essential. Also, roles are much better defined in that the classes play their respective roles much better than anything in 3E.

The reason UMD is missing in 4E is because it's not needed. I'm with ya though, UMD needs to stay in DDO.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Did you even READ what I wrote?

You know... and I'm not kidding here... I actually whispered an expletive and then made a statement that several people around me queried about. They asked me why I would question someones intelligence in such an emotive manner. I hadn't meant for them to hear it... but heard it they did, which required me to explain why I would say blank blank, this girl is blanking stupid.

I explained to them that there were certain elements of fourth edition I approved of, not the entire game... just certain elements. How I had mentioned that DDO could adopt some of those elements as it would improve the game considerably... elements pertaining towards skills mostly as I felt that was one place where fourth edition really got it right.

They were following along, but still uncertain as to why I would curse at someone in such a way.

So I explained further...

The first argument the girl had made was just "No"... didn't actually make an argument, or really have a position outside of no. However, in a later argument she flew into hysterics arguing as though I had suggested making a full on conversion of 4.0, which of course I hadn't. In fact, I'd only suggested making a few alterations to three aspects of the game. One would reduce cleric dependency.... the other would consolidate skills. This said nothing about spells, saving throws, character progression or much anything else.

And that, I explained, was why I whispered blank blank, this girl is blanking stupid. I use blank blank as I do not wish to publicly take the Lords name in vain. I have to be pretty upset to curse, but ignorance has always upset me.

When people shriek at you without even bothering to read what you wrote... yes, it troubles me.

What about the skill stuff? same differance. There would be items that would be changed or outright deleted, toons to respecced, especially in the rogue department, UMD vital for RR items going away would be alot of my toons loosing items (along with the spell points) all together, Not to arcanes using heal wands and visaversa. Yeah I read what you posted, and it would be easier for the them to go all the way and go 4.0 than pieces here and there.

I still stand by my arguement. No. Bad idea. And dwarf thing-ee, whatever floats your boat.

samagee
06-25-2008, 02:14 PM
Note: These changes my require, literally a complete respec of each character (as in you're reduced to level one and rebuild your character from there on up to your previous level as if you started with the experience you had prior to the respec). Further it would require a great deal of tweaking and balancing. I do not disagree. However, in the long run I feel these changes would augment the game considerably.


1. Skill Revamp
New Skills
Atheletics: Jump/Swimming
Acrobatics: Tumble/Balance
Stealth: Hide/Move Silently
Thievery: Disable Traps/Lockpicking
Perception: Spot/Listen/Search

Old Skills
Heal Skill: Change to allow the usage of healing kits to cure poisons and diseases, and provide magical healing kits capable of curing even more potent status effects.
UMD: Get rid of it.


2. Player Independence
Provide players with the ability to heal themselves through the usage of "healing surges" or similar ability. This reduces the dependence on Clerics to succeed on quests without spending a fortune on wands and or pots.


3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

I don't understand why you don't just go back to playing WoW. The 4th ed is not D&D. They are trying to redefine it as this new trash they are publishing, however many are not buying it. Sure, the new generation is picking it up just because of the title alone. It's their money to waste if they want, but don't try to force it down our throats.

villainsimple
06-25-2008, 02:15 PM
What about the skill stuff? same differance. There would be items that would be changed or outright deleted, toons to respecced, especially in the rogue department, UMD vital for RR items going away would be alot of my toons loosing items (along with the spell points) all together, Not to arcanes using heal wands and visaversa. Yeah I read what you posted, and it would be easier for the them to go all the way and go 4.0 than pieces here and there.

I still stand by my arguement. No. Bad idea. And dwarf thing-ee, whatever floats your boat.



UMD is a dramatic and unbalancing factor within the game. Simple as that. When the DM can determine whether or not you have access to a cure serious wounds wand it's not a bad thing... in DDO it means our engine of destruction juggernaut Sorc can wand whip with the best of them, and raise the dead when they're done.

And really... what items would be so terribly undone?

All you'd have to do would be to alter say +Jump items to now be +atheltics..giving you jump AND swim.... not seeing a problem here...

UMD'd gear? Well, tough. Go sell it. Your character wouldn't IMPLODE without UMD...and if it did, perhaps you should recognize that maybe if you're building your entire character around a single skill...that skill might be a LIL unbalanced.

samagee
06-25-2008, 02:15 PM
I fail to see how altering a game that already has considerable fourth edition elements in such a way that it assumes more of the most beneficial elements of fourth edition is a bad thing. I only wish to change that which most needs changing.

Hide/Move silently for example... spending gobs of skill points for essentially the same function. Lockpicking and Trap Disabling. So ona nd so forth.

Further, augmenting the largely useless heal skill by providing a more active purpose for it ISN'T a bad idea...especially if it saves Clerics spell points.

I have picked locks in real life. It is different then say defusing a bomb.

EspyLacopa
06-25-2008, 02:16 PM
The 4th ed is not D&D. They are trying to redefine it as this new trash they are publishing, however many are not buying it. Sure, the new generation is picking it up just because of the title alone. It's their money to waste if they want, but don't try to force it down our throats.
Actually, 4e is indeed D&D, and from what a number of older players keep saying, is quite close to what the Original D&D was like.

samagee
06-25-2008, 02:17 PM
UMD is a dramatic and unbalancing factor within the game. Simple as that. When the DM can determine whether or not you have access to a cure serious wounds wand it's not a bad thing... in DDO it means our engine of destruction juggernaut Sorc can wand whip with the best of them, and raise the dead when they're done.

And really... what items would be so terribly undone?

All you'd have to do would be to alter say +Jump items to now be +atheltics..giving you jump AND swim.... not seeing a problem here...

UMD'd gear? Well, tough. Go sell it. Your character wouldn't IMPLODE without UMD...and if it did, perhaps you should recognize that maybe if you're building your entire character around a single skill...that skill might be a LIL unbalanced.

The game would not be dungeons and dragons anymore. It's as simple as that. You don't want to plan your character accordingly and have access to anything, go play another game where you can be a god if you want.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:17 PM
And dwarf thing-ee, whatever floats your boat.

I can't speak for everyone, but the dwarf thing-ee is pretty much tongue in cheek. They are hot though.

samagee
06-25-2008, 02:18 PM
Actually, 4e is indeed D&D, and from what a number of older players keep saying, is quite close to what the Original D&D was like.

Take it from an original player. I disagree.

Yaga_Nub
06-25-2008, 02:19 PM
What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? 4E by far encourages teamwork, far better than anything in 3E. You absolutely have to work together...unless dying is your goal. Sure teamwork was key in 3E, but in 4E it's essential. Also, roles are much better defined in that the classes play their respective roles much better than anything in 3E.

The reason UMD is missing in 4E is because it's not needed. I'm with ya though, UMD needs to stay in DDO.

Let me preface this with a comment, I have not PLAY a 4.0 campaign yet. I am slowly reading through the new books to compare them to 3.5 books.

Having said that, I still feel as if 4.0 is a PnP MMO and doesn't encourage having a party because MMOs don't really require parties per se. Just my opinion.

EspyLacopa
06-25-2008, 02:20 PM
Take it from an original player. I disagree.
Really? What was Chainmail like? :p

Yaga_Nub
06-25-2008, 02:20 PM
Take it from an original player. I disagree.

/seconded.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:21 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but the dwarf thing-ee is pretty much tongue in cheek. They are hot though.

I'm a girl, a heterosexual one at that, so doesn't do anything for me. However, wanna disscuss how men run in this game, I'll be there raising heck on that subject.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:22 PM
Actually, 4e is indeed D&D, and from what a number of older players keep saying, is quite close to what the Original D&D was like.

and this original player say no, not even close.

villainsimple
06-25-2008, 02:23 PM
I don't understand why you don't just go back to playing WoW. The 4th ed is not D&D. They are trying to redefine it as this new trash they are publishing, however many are not buying it. Sure, the new generation is picking it up just because of the title alone. It's their money to waste if they want, but don't try to force it down our throats.

You do realize you already have numerous fourth edition elements in this game? Have any of you even READ the fourth edition books? I mean seriously. From the bonus damage elements on two spell types to Dwarven Weapon Master... to Human Action Surge... which gives you a +3 to attacks when you use an action point... YOU'RE ALREADY PLAYING MAJOR ELEMENTS OF FOURTH EDITION.

See... and it's THIS GUY telling me he just doesn't understand why I don't "go back to WoW'.

Right... as if you have even a vague understanding of the game we're talking about right now.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:24 PM
I have picked locks in real life. It is different then say defusing a bomb.

DnD characters are supposed to represent highly trained, versatile, skilled professionals. Plus it's just a lot easier to group a few skills together and have them level up as you do. It especially makes creating a character about 1st level less time consuming.

Reading a lot these posts, I'd rather have everyone content with DDO rather than be ****ed off that their characters change in any way. It's unfortunate because the skill system in 4E is just much better than in 3E. Either way I'm good though.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:24 PM
Really? What was Chainmail like? :p

not talking chainmail, never played that. Talking original D&D, in which 4.0 is an successor.

villainsimple
06-25-2008, 02:26 PM
Let me preface this with a comment, I have not PLAY a 4.0 campaign yet. I am slowly reading through the new books to compare them to 3.5 books.

Having said that, I still feel as if 4.0 is a PnP MMO and doesn't encourage having a party because MMOs don't really require parties per se. Just my opinion.

FINALLY... someone here actually comes clean and ADMITS they haven't a clue whiskey tango foxtrot they're talking about.

EspyLacopa
06-25-2008, 02:26 PM
not talking chainmail, never played that. Talking original D&D, in which 4.0 is an successor.
Right, right, the game where you didn't have Classes, you had Races ^_^

All Dwarves were the same. As were all Elves and Halflings.

Humans were the only ones with classes: Fighter, Magic User, Priest, and Thief.

What am I missing from the D&D Players Handbook? (NONE of the supplements!)

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:28 PM
Let me preface this with a comment, I have not PLAY a 4.0 campaign yet. I am slowly reading through the new books to compare them to 3.5 books.

Having said that, I still feel as if 4.0 is a PnP MMO and doesn't encourage having a party because MMOs don't really require parties per se. Just my opinion.

It's all good man. 4E is unquestionably influenced by MMO's. That's extremely hard if not impossible to argue. 4E isn't for everyone, though it could be if they approached it with an open mind. It's a very well balanced system, though not perfect of course. It plays fast paced with a ton of enjoyable dynamic elements that aren't apparent at first glance. Be assured, that party cooperation/teamwork is paramount to success. Monsters can be very nasty with a tactically minded DM. If you don't like 4E, 3.5 is still a great game.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:29 PM
Right, right, the game where you didn't have Classes, you had Races ^_^

All Dwarves were the same. As were all Elves and Halflings.

Humans were the only ones with classes: Fighter, Magic User, Priest, and Thief.

What am I missing from the D&D Players Handbook? (NONE of the supplements!)

You are pulling basic elements, I was referring to gameplay.

EspyLacopa
06-25-2008, 02:29 PM
It's all good man. 4E is unquestionably influenced by MMO's. That's extremely hard if not impossible to argue. 4E isn't for everyone, though it could be if they approached it with an open mind. It's a very well balanced system, though not perfect of course. It plays fast paced with a ton of enjoyable dynamic elements that aren't apparent at first glance. If you don't like 4E, 3.5 is still a great game.
By the same token, MMOs (and the vast majority of CRPGs) were influenced by PnP RPGs.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:31 PM
By the same token, MMOs (and the vast majority of CRPGs) were influenced by PnP RPGs.

Fantastic point and thank you for posting that.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:34 PM
It's all good man. 4E is unquestionably influenced by MMO's. That's extremely hard if not impossible to argue. 4E isn't for everyone, though it could be if they approached it with an open mind. It's a very well balanced system, though not perfect of course. It plays fast paced with a ton of enjoyable dynamic elements that aren't apparent at first glance. If you don't like 4E, 3.5 is still a great game.

And here is someone with an open mind. I do have 4.0 books and have read through them. We do not like them and will not be playing them. However, this was about changing some of the element of DDO to suit 4.0. I really do not want to respecc a perfectly good toon. I do not want to gimp a toon because UMD is gone. I find the whole idea dista****l, and would leave the game if it happened. THis is 3.5 not 4.0.

btw, If anything, 4.0 is influenced by DDO, not the other way around.

Yaga_Nub
06-25-2008, 02:36 PM
If you don't like 4E, 3.5 is still a great game.

Actually I don't like 3.5 either for some of the very same reasons that they started to look to MMOs for inspiration.

I still play (occasionally) AD&D because of those same reasons. I find it faster and less rules oriented than 3.5.

A lot of the stuff that is in 3.5 was created not to flesh the game out but to create more books to sell. WotC realized that most modern players of DnD are lazy and unimaginative so they can't create their own house rules so they need an "official" book from WotC to help them along. OR at least that's what WotC has tried to sell us since buying TSR. I disagree. I just think that most players WON'T try to think for themselves if they know they can just reference a book.

We'll know in about 5 years how fast and easy to play 4.0 is by the number of extra rules books that are published.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:39 PM
And here is someone with an open mind. I do have 4.0 books and have read through them. We do not like them and will not be playing them. However, this was about changing some of the element of DDO to suit 4.0. I really do not want to respecc a perfectly good toon. I do not want to gimp a toon because UMD is gone. I find the whole idea dista****l, and would leave the game if it happened. THis is 3.5 not 4.0.

btw, If anything, 4.0 is influenced by DDO, not the other way around.

Right and DDO is influenced by 3.5. It's such a vicious cycle lol.

You have every right not to play 4E. No one is forcing you to do anything. No one is changing DDO to 4E. This is all just table talk.

DoctorWhofan
06-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Right and DDO is influenced by 3.5. It's such a vicious cycle lol.

You have every right not to play 4E. No one is forcing you to do anything. No one is changing DDO to 4E. This is all just table talk.

exactly.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 02:42 PM
Actually I don't like 3.5 either for some of the very same reasons that they started to look to MMOs for inspiration.

I still play (occasionally) AD&D because of those same reasons. I find it faster and less rules oriented than 3.5.

A lot of the stuff that is in 3.5 was created not to flesh the game out but to create more books to sell. WotC realized that most modern players of DnD are lazy and unimaginative so they can't create their own house rules so they need an "official" book from WotC to help them along. OR at least that's what WotC has tried to sell us since buying TSR. I disagree. I just think that most players WON'T try to think for themselves if they know they can just reference a book.

We'll know in about 5 years how fast and easy to play 4.0 is by the number of extra rules books that are published.

I guess this is where our philosophies differ. For me, the less rules I have to worry about, the more creative I can be. 4E did away with a ton of extraneous rules, enabling DM and player alike to focus on creativity. Or maybe our philosophies are more alike than we realize?

Yaga_Nub
06-25-2008, 02:45 PM
I guess this is where our philosophies differ. For me, the less rules I have to worry about, the more creative I can be. 4E did away with a ton of extraneous rules, enabling DM and player alike to focus on creativity. Or maybe our philosophies are more alike than we realize?

Well I actually have to correct myself. There are no rules in DnD, there are only guidelines. So I will say that the less guidelines that I have to deal with, the more I enjoy the game.

GramercyRiff
06-25-2008, 04:27 PM
Well I actually have to correct myself. There are no rules in DnD, there are only guidelines. So I will say that the less guidelines that I have to deal with, the more I enjoy the game.

Indeed. The greatness of every incarnation of DnD has been its flexibility to adapt to any given group's play style. Rules...Guidelines, it's just semantics. The important thing is that all versions, 4E included, offer ways to mold the game as you see fit.

Raath
06-25-2008, 06:42 PM
/snip

He bases alot of his characters on LOTR by JRR Tolkien
and in those Dwarven felamles do not have beards and are in fact "quite hot".

So much so that the Dwarves are Highly overprotective of them.

Just a few fun facts for you this morning...

Sorry, I know it's off topic but I couldnt let this slide.

From the appendices of LOTR, Tolkien wrote:

"Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people.They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'."

They looked exactly like male dwarves. (I leave it to you whether thats "hot" or not)

And from 'The War of the Jewels', Tolkien writes:

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race mulltiplied slowly, and now is dwindling."

stating that female dwarves did indeed have beards...even as babies.

As far as 4e, I have yet to look into it, so I have no opinion yet.

Uska
06-25-2008, 08:03 PM
I have picked locks in real life. It is different then say defusing a bomb.

It sure is I have picked locks in real life a larp I use to play use to have locks and traps and you had to really disarm or pick them still have my lock picks as well hmm maybe I should practise and see if I still can do it. On the bomb side I tried to be in disposal in the military and failed in testing just dont have the manual dexterity to disarm explosives so went in to supply instead much safer.

captain1z
06-25-2008, 08:32 PM
It sure is I have picked locks in real life a larp I use to play use to have locks and traps and you had to really disarm or pick them still have my lock picks as well hmm maybe I should practise and see if I still can do it. On the bomb side I tried to be in disposal in the military and failed in testing just dont have the manual dexterity to disarm explosives so went in to supply instead much safer.

I can pick locks with paper clips, hairpins or a few random shaped pieces of scrap metal. Ive done all kinds and Ill say the only difference is size. The larger ones seem harder than the smaller ones but in the end its just a matter of seconds versus minutes. My friends say if life was like D&D Id be a rogue for sure........... and while I may be way to tall for a rogue, I would agree.

Euthorcize
06-25-2008, 08:47 PM
Things DDO could learn from 4E: Turn paladins into immortal god mages of ultimate power like in 4E.... or at least bring them up to snuff with the rest of the classes? ;).

tenga
06-26-2008, 12:43 AM
3. DWARVEN WOMEN ARE HOT NOW

i'd like to see beards added as an option for dwarven woman at creation

villainsimple
06-26-2008, 02:58 AM
i'd like to see beards added as an option for dwarven woman at creation


Why don't we just break into the turbine offices and trash their facilities?

Seriously people, what do you guys have against Turbine? Why do you want to destroy their business so badly?

Sex Sells ladies and gentlemen, and attractive dwarven women would assist in that sell.

Raath
06-26-2008, 03:19 AM
Why don't we just break into the turbine offices and trash their facilities?

Seriously people, what do you guys have against Turbine? Why do you want to destroy their business so badly?

Sex Sells ladies and gentlemen, and attractive dwarven women would assist in that sell.

Well, LOTRO has/is outselling DDO, and you dont even get a choice of being a male or female dwarf in that game.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2008, 08:19 AM
Sex Sells ladies and gentlemen, and attractive dwarven women would assist in that sell.
Attractive to who? Dwarven Men, or Humans?

Hambo
06-26-2008, 11:25 AM
And here is someone with an open mind. I do have 4.0 books and have read through them. We do not like them and will not be playing them. However, this was about changing some of the element of DDO to suit 4.0. I really do not want to respecc a perfectly good toon. I do not want to gimp a toon because UMD is gone. I find the whole idea dista****l, and would leave the game if it happened. THis is 3.5 not 4.0.

btw, If anything, 4.0 is influenced by DDO, not the other way around.

Can I have your books? :D:D:D

Yaga_Nub
06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
Rules...Guidelines, it's just semantics.

Actually it's not just semantics. It's the weight that people place on the word. To the majority, a rule is alllllllmost a law and they tend to treat them with that type of weight. That's why you have rules lawyers in DnD. You can't break a guideline, you can only not follow it. You can break a rule. Rules give people a false sense of self-importance, guidelines don't. Etc., etc., yadda yadda yadda

Archetype
06-26-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm a girl, a heterosexual one at that, so doesn't do anything for me. However, wanna disscuss how men run in this game, I'll be there raising heck on that subject.

/agreed

The whole "I am cringing as I run b/c my jockstrap/thong is too tight/riding up my butt" human male run animation has GOT to go!

No wonder I only have one human male character in DDO. Too painful to watch as I play, eh? :p

DoctorWhofan
06-26-2008, 12:23 PM
Can I have your books? :D:D:D

I burned them, barbaquing this weekend. Not encouraging anyone to play the system.

Dexxaan
06-26-2008, 12:25 PM
Really Gygax's opinion is the only one that counts, hmmm, interesting. Because I do believe that Gygax took his information from Tolkien, I could be wrong, has happened before. But to "steal", I use this term VERY VERY VERY loosely, an idea from someone else and then modify the information is still "stealing". Tolkien is THE founder of all things Mythic and Magicial, he was the first to produce a copy of anything that contained information on all the mystical creations found in almost every game, so without Tolkien where would Gygax gotten his information. Yes the fact that he modified it to suit his needs and his tastes is probably what you mean and that is fine. I merely wanted to point out that Gygax who is a great man and created one the things I enjoy most, no life outside of gaming, got his information from Tolkien who created the mythical universe as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, but merely my opinion or a lot of misinformation I have recieved on my end. As for 4e becoming part of DDO, no thanks.

I find this argument like saying "Pizza is Italian" and you should listen to Luigi on the matters of Pizza skills.

Yet in reality what Gygax did is what the U.S. did for Pizza.....you take a good existing product or idea and make it Awesome!

I´ve asked many people from MANY places in the world that have tasted Italian Style pizza...and compared to the one we enjoy stateside....Luigi doesn´t stand a chance. :D

So thanks Tolkien, but Gygax made your product a playable system, motivating hundreds of writers to create worlds, monsters, myths, etc...

DoctorWhofan
06-26-2008, 12:27 PM
/agreed

The whole "I am cringing as I run b/c my jockstrap/thong is too tight/riding up my butt" human male run animation has GOT to go!

No wonder I only have one human male character in DDO. Too painful to watch as I play, eh? :p

or like they didn't make it to the men's room to change their Depends. My husband doesn't run like that, neither does all the Marines running in formation For hours in K-Bay!

Just proves that the production and development team for DDO were all men, we maybe mostly, but the women got out voted.

GramercyRiff
06-26-2008, 12:32 PM
I burned them, barbaquing this weekend. Not encouraging anyone to play the system.

Sure you're joking (I hope), but why would you even care if anyone else played the game?

GramercyRiff
06-26-2008, 12:36 PM
Actually it's not just semantics. It's the weight that people place on the word. To the majority, a rule is alllllllmost a law and they tend to treat them with that type of weight. That's why you have rules lawyers in DnD. You can't break a guideline, you can only not follow it. You can break a rule. Rules give people a false sense of self-importance, guidelines don't. Etc., etc., yadda yadda yadda

Meh, we'll just disagree. You can choose to not follow rules, just like you can guidelines, especially the ones that enable the game to implode on itself with unbalancing power. And yes you can break rules, but where is the fun in that?

KristovK
06-26-2008, 12:57 PM
Why don't we just break into the turbine offices and trash their facilities?

Seriously people, what do you guys have against Turbine? Why do you want to destroy their business so badly?

Sex Sells ladies and gentlemen, and attractive dwarven women would assist in that sell.

Uhhhh....

Someone's never created a female dwarf I take it, or seen one ingame? Cause if you had, you'd know, they are NOT attractive by any of the socially accepted standards of the American public.

DDO has obviously influenced 4th Ed, that's quite clear. Other MMO's such as WoW have also had an obvious influence on 4th Ed. WoTC aren't idiots...they aren't creative geniuses, but they ARE marketing geniuses, and they've targetted 4th Ed at the money spending crowd who love MMOs and the simplicity of them with a PnP game they can understand and play with the same ease they play their MMOs. And they'll get EXPANSIONS! Just like their MMOs, expansions to give them more races and classes and toys. WoTC knows what they are doing, the MMO market is huge and it's a massive money maker, and they tend to like things as simplified as possible, hence the 4th Ed system being rather simplistic compared to the previous D&D incarnations. Sorry if anyone finds that insulting or whatever, but it's the truth, WoTC has turned the old D&D games into a PnP version of WoW, something any idiot can play and do well at.

DoctorWhofan
06-26-2008, 01:19 PM
Sure you're joking (I hope), but why would you even care if anyone else played the game?

I don't care, but I am not giving the books to someone else to encourage them to play 4.0.


I was kidding about the 4.0...barely. I have the urge every time I light the grill. This is me who gets nausated everytime I see a documentry on Hitler's book burning, or Fareheiht 971 (SP)

I simply do not like it, nor do I want it in a MMO form. Nor will I play it. Nor stick around here if they add "Healing surges" or skill point changes or such. The reason I am heere is because it IS DIFFERENT from all other MMOs. I feel 4.0 is WoW, and changing DDO any way in that direction will make this game WoW with a good combat system.

I also feel that if I wanted WoW rpg game, I'd buy WoW's version. I know I am minority on this, especially this thread.

Simple and easy doesn't always equate better.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2008, 02:26 PM
Simple and easy doesn't always equate better.
Done right however, and it can last for hundreds of years. . .(just look at Chess and Go)

DoctorWhofan
06-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Done right however, and it can last for hundreds of years. . .(just look at Chess and Go)

agreed, that was the "not always" part of my post. 4.0, however, isn't chess.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2008, 03:57 PM
agreed, that was the "not always" part of my post. 4.0, however, isn't chess.
But striving for that type of thing isn't a bad thing. Making a game simple enough for kids to pick up and play is how you keep a game alive, otherwise it'll die out due to lack of new players.

The way you said it, it seemed as though you think it is a bad thing to strive for that "Simple and Easy" bit.