PDA

View Full Version : Ye old greensteel Dwarven Axe vs Khopesh Argument

direwolf33
06-20-2008, 08:13 PM
Ok... Let's do some math.

I have a dwarven strength ranger. He has a deathnip in the primary hand. This is a comparison of a minII khopeshes to dwarven axes. I'm going to use averages, so a 1d6 averages to 3.5 damage, etc...

Base damages (full warchanter bard buffs assumed):

Khopesh
1d10 + 10 str +5 weapon +5 PA + 13 bard = 38.5 / hit
(38.5 +6 seeker) * 3 = 133.5 / crit
38.5 * (16/20) + 133.5*(4/20) = 57.5/avg

Dwarven Axe
2d8 + 10 str + 5weapon +5 PA +13 bard + 2 dorf= 44/hit
(44 + 6 seeker) * 3 = 150/crit
44 * (18/20) + 150 * (2/18) = 56.3/avg

So, based on base damages it appears that the khopesh edges out by 1 pt/swing on average. I don't see how Khopesh is worth a feat using these numbers. I know that as seeker and base damage go up, the khopesh will edge out but...

Also, using some tier 2 numbers, the khopesh does pull ahead by another point per swing:

DWARVEN AXE - Acid, Good Burst
Acid + Energy Burst (Good, Evil) - 1d6 on hit + on Crit 4d6
1d6 + 1d6 = 3.5 normal
1d6+5d6 = 20.5 on crit

3.5 * (18/20) + 20.5 * (2/20) = 5.2 good/hit + 3.5 acid = 8.7 average

DWARVEN AXE - Holy, Acid Burst
Holy: 2d6 = 7/hit
Acid: 1d6+2d10 on crit: 1d6 + 2d10 = 14.5/crit
3.5 * (18/20) + 14.5 * (2/20) = 4.6 acid/hit + 7 holy/hit = 11.6 average

KHOPESH - Acid, Good Burst
Acid + Energy Burst (Good, Evil) - 1d6 on hit + on Crit 4d6
1d6 + 1d6 = 3.5 normal
1d6+5d6 = 20.5 on crit
3.5 * (16/20) + 20.5 * (4/20) = 6.9 good/hit + 3.5 acid = 10.4 average

KHOPESH - Holy, Acid Burst
Holy: 2d6 = 7/hit
Acid: 1d6+2d10 on crit: 1d6 + 2d10 = 14.5
3.5 * (16/20) + 14.5 * (4/20) = 5.7 acid/hit + 7 holy/hit = 12.7 average

Summary:
Assuming all racial enhancements are taken, Dwarven Axe is roughly +2 to hit / -2 to damage (per swing, after all multiplications) vs khopesh. Actual DPS depends on to-hit versus monster AC.

sirgog
06-21-2008, 11:08 PM
They key factor that makes Axes superior to all other weapons for Dwarves is the Axe Accuracy Enhancments.

When each hit does as much damage as we do at endgame, each miss costs us dearly in DPS.

Spend the 6AP for +2 axe accuracy and either 2 or 6 AP for +1 or +2 damage (2 AP is good value, the extra 4 AP may not be worth it in your build depending upon other AP needs).

Alcides
07-08-2008, 11:22 PM
Average Damage Comparison
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 10 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 22.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 55.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 10 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +5 PA = 27.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 15 PA= 70.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 30 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str = 32.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Strength= 85.5
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 30 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str +5 PA = 37.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str +15 PA = 100.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 10 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 24.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 66 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 10 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +5 PA = 29.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +15 PA = 81 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 30 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str = 34.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str = 96 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 30 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str +5 PA = 39.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str + 15 PA = 111 Damage

Consider 100 Swings, 5&#37; of critical hits are not confirmed.
Khopesh has 5 misses, 76 Normal Hits, 19 Critical Hits.
Dwarven Axe has 5 misses, 85.5 Normal Hits, 9.5 Critical Hits.

Average Weapon Damage
Khopesh
10 Str => (5 * 0 + 76 * 22.5 + 19 * 55.5) / 100 = 27.65 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 76 * 27.5 + 19 * 70.5) / 100 = 34.30 Damage / Swing
30 Str => (5 * 0 + 76 * 32.5 + 19 * 85.5) / 100 = 40.95 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 76 * 37.5 + 19 * 100.5) / 100 = 47.60 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe
10 Str => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 24.5 + 9.5 * 66) / 100 = 27.22 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 29.5 + 9.5 * 81) / 100 = 32.92 Damage / Swing
30 Str => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 34.5 + 9.5 * 96) / 100 = 38.62 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 39.5 + 9.5 * 111) / 100 = 44.32 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe with extra +1 Hit
On Average is a 2.5 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.025 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 27.90 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.025 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 33.74 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.025 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 39.59 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.025 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 45.43 Damage / Swing

At Best is a 5.0 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.05 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 28.58 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.05 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 34.57 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.05 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 40.55 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.05 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 46.54 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe with extra +2 Hit
On Average is a 5.0 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.05 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 28.58 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.05 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 34.57 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.05 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 40.55 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.05 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 46.54 Damage / Swing

At Best is a 10% Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.10 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 29.94 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.10 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 36.21 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.10 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 42.48 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.10 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 48.75 Damage / Swing

The Dwarven Axe is extremely close to a Khopesh. I'd say it would depend on race/build as to which one you would pick. The Khopesh is marginally better until you have an extra +2 racial bonus to Hit with the Dwarven Axe.

hydra_ex
07-19-2008, 04:06 PM
Instead of mechanically and mentally crunching the numbers, I got lazy and used the weapon comparisom tool. With the axe enhancements, an axe is better. If I add on a crit enhc, such as acid burst, to both, the axe is still marginally better. If you dont use the axe enhc, however, khopesh is better.

Justicesar
12-10-2008, 05:23 AM
Instead of mechanically and mentally crunching the numbers, I got lazy and used the weapon comparisom tool. With the axe enhancements, an axe is better. If I add on a crit enhc, such as acid burst, to both, the axe is still marginally better. If you dont use the axe enhc, however, khopesh is better.

I used the weapon comparison tool as well and the axe came out ahead of the khopesh. Then how come alot of number crunching posts have the Khopesh ahead of Dwarven Axe?? I must be putting the info in wrong or missing something??

Justicesar
12-12-2008, 05:02 AM
I used the weapon comparison tool as well and the axe came out ahead of the khopesh. Then how come alot of number crunching posts have the Khopesh ahead of Dwarven Axe?? I must be putting the info in wrong or missing something??

I was wrong..Khopesh beats the Dwarven axe. I guess the decision has to be made between using a feat, no problem for fighter or.....using up 12 enhancment points. Kensai in combo with Dwarven Axes would be 12+11 by the way....which is where I'm going.

direwolf33
01-28-2009, 03:58 PM
Bumping to save from cleansing death. Plan to update with Kensai I numbers.

stazer
04-18-2009, 05:33 PM
please factor in the enhancements Dwarves get for damage, as MOST people that use this instead of Kopeshes are going to be dwarves. Those that say misses dont matter because they hit most of the time I think discredit the importance of EVERY hit.

KatanAztar
04-18-2009, 05:43 PM
The math I did on this when I rolled my dorf ranger concluded even with dorf axe damage, the kopesh still is slightly higher on dps depending on strength. I used 36 strength when calculating it and accounted for offhand damage dual-weilding mineral 2 shroud weapons. As strength increases, the kopesh will largen it's margin over the d-axe.(this margin is very very small) It's more a question of feat vs enhancements.

Noctus
04-18-2009, 07:40 PM
...(this margin is very very small) It's more a question of feat vs enhancements.

Yeah.
Choosing your weapon depends on what your build finds more costly: a feat or action points.

Shade
04-24-2009, 07:27 AM
If your a Dwarf, you fight with the axe!

If you use some strange human weapon your no dwarf at all.

Nyhm
10-14-2009, 08:30 AM
Average Damage Comparison
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 10 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 22.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 55.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 10 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +5 PA = 27.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 15 PA= 70.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 30 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str = 32.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Strength= 85.5
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Khopesh Mineral, 30 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 5.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str +5 PA = 37.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 16.5 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str +15 PA = 100.5 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 10 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 24.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing = 66 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 10 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +5 PA = 29.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing +15 PA = 81 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 30 Str =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str = 34.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str = 96 Damage
+5 Holy, Acid Burst Dwarven Axe Mineral Weapon, 30 Str, Power Attack On =>
Normal Hit = 5 + 7 Holy + 3.5 Acid + 9 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 10 Str +5 PA = 39.5 Damage
Critical Hit = 15 + 7 Holy + 14.5 Acid + 27 Weapon + 2.5 Slicing + 30 Str + 15 PA = 111 Damage

Consider 100 Swings, 5% of critical hits are not confirmed.
Khopesh has 5 misses, 76 Normal Hits, 19 Critical Hits.
Dwarven Axe has 5 misses, 85.5 Normal Hits, 9.5 Critical Hits.

Average Weapon Damage
Khopesh
10 Str => (5 * 0 + 76 * 22.5 + 19 * 55.5) / 100 = 27.65 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 76 * 27.5 + 19 * 70.5) / 100 = 34.30 Damage / Swing
30 Str => (5 * 0 + 76 * 32.5 + 19 * 85.5) / 100 = 40.95 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 76 * 37.5 + 19 * 100.5) / 100 = 47.60 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe
10 Str => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 24.5 + 9.5 * 66) / 100 = 27.22 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 29.5 + 9.5 * 81) / 100 = 32.92 Damage / Swing
30 Str => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 34.5 + 9.5 * 96) / 100 = 38.62 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => (5 * 0 + 85.5 * 39.5 + 9.5 * 111) / 100 = 44.32 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe with extra +1 Hit
On Average is a 2.5 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.025 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 27.90 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.025 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 33.74 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.025 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 39.59 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.025 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 45.43 Damage / Swing

At Best is a 5.0 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.05 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 28.58 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.05 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 34.57 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.05 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 40.55 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.05 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 46.54 Damage / Swing

Dwarven Axe with extra +2 Hit
On Average is a 5.0 % Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.05 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 28.58 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.05 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 34.57 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.05 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 40.55 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.05 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 46.54 Damage / Swing

At Best is a 10% Increase in Damage
10 Str => 1.10 * 27.22 Damage / Swing = 29.94 Damage / Swing
10 Str, PA => 1.10 * 32.92 Damage / Swing = 36.21 Damage / Swing
30 Str => 1.10 * 38.62 Damage / Swing = 42.48 Damage / Swing
30 Str, PA => 1.10 * 44.32 Damage / Swing = 48.75 Damage / Swing

The Dwarven Axe is extremely close to a Khopesh. I'd say it would depend on race/build as to which one you would pick. The Khopesh is marginally better until you have an extra +2 racial bonus to Hit with the Dwarven Axe.

It has always amazed me when people do the numbers. I praise you, sir.

Tallyn
10-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Another thing to consider is that these statistics are valid on mobs that can be critically hit. In which the Khopesh is a little better than the Dwarven Axe. IF the monster cannot be critically hit, or has some degree of fortification I believe the Dwarven Axe would be superior due to the fact of the higher base damage dice (Dwarven Axe 2d8 vs Khopesh 1d10).

Please let me know if I'm wrong, but if any of you want, could you crunch the numbers on 50% Fort and 100% Fort? :)

Absolute-Omniscience
10-16-2009, 03:40 PM
The flaw with the previously posted damage breakdown is that it only factors a margin of the damage enhancements existant in the game.

To break it into an actual build and compare the different weapons:

Dwarven level 20 barbarian, DA

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
DA DA Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
9 9 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
2 2 Racial damage enhancement
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer

65 51 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
1 1 Force ritual

35 35 Effects Total
100 86 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
2 2 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
195 153 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
270 228 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
100 86 Attack 2
100 86 Attack 3
100 86 Attack 4
100 86 Attack 5
100 86 Attack 6
100 86 Attack 7
100 86 Attack 8
100 86 Attack 9
100 86 Attack 10
100 86 Attack 11
100 86 Attack 12
100 86 Attack 13
100 86 Attack 14
100 86 Attack 15
100 86 Attack 16
100 86 Attack 17
100 86 Attack 18
516 432 Attack 19
530 446 Attack 20
137,3 117 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

73925,2 62995,26 Total Damage
27384,09 Damage/M
246,42 209,98 Damage/S
456,4 Damage Per Second

Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
390 306 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
36 36 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
516 432 Critical Total

Dwarven level 20 barbarian, Khopesh

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
59,5 45,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
35 35 Effects Total
94,5 80,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
178,5 136,5 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
253,5 211,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
94,5 80,5 Attack 2
94,5 80,5 Attack 3
94,5 80,5 Attack 4
94,5 80,5 Attack 5
94,5 80,5 Attack 6
94,5 80,5 Attack 7
94,5 80,5 Attack 8
94,5 80,5 Attack 9
94,5 80,5 Attack 10
94,5 80,5 Attack 11
94,5 80,5 Attack 12
94,5 80,5 Attack 13
94,5 80,5 Attack 14
94,5 80,5 Attack 15
94,5 80,5 Attack 16
253,5 211,5 Attack 17
253,5 211,5 Attack 18
483 399 Attack 19
497 413 Attack 20
145,23 122,13 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
0 0 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

78192,19 65754,66 Total Damage
28789,37 Damage/M
260,64 219,18 Damage/S
479,82 Damage Per Second

Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
357 273 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
36 36 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
483 399 Critical Total

Conclusion
Khopesh: 480
Dwarven Axe: 456

480/456=5,2% more dps for the khopesh.

The Khopesh uses a feat, whilst the Dwarven axe uses 12 APs. Both about the same worth depending on build / class.

If the khopesh user would be a WF with maxed PA enhancements, he would have ~498 dps, ~9,2% more dps. (though less to hit).

It really all boils down to what you prefer, and what class / build you're playing, and what quest you're playing.
In most situations however, the Khopesh will be ahead.

EDIT:
Same builds vs 50% fort
DA

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
DA DA Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
9 9 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
2 2 Racial damage enhancement
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
65 51 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
35 35 Effects Total
100 86 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
2 2 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
130 102 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
9 9 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
196 168 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
100 86 Attack 2
100 86 Attack 3
100 86 Attack 4
100 86 Attack 5
100 86 Attack 6
100 86 Attack 7
100 86 Attack 8
100 86 Attack 9
100 86 Attack 10
100 86 Attack 11
100 86 Attack 12
100 86 Attack 13
100 86 Attack 14
100 86 Attack 15
100 86 Attack 16
100 86 Attack 17
100 86 Attack 18
335,5 286,5 Attack 19
349,5 300,5 Attack 20
119,25 102,45 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
50 50 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

64206,7 55161,23 Total Damage
23873,59 Damage/M
214,02 183,87 Damage/S
397,89 Damage Per Second

Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
227,5 178,5 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
335,5 286,5 Critical Total

Khopesh

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
59,5 45,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
0 0 Tempest set
0 0 Henshin monk set
0 0 Sneak attack
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
35 35 Effects Total
94,5 80,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
119 91 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
9 9 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
185 157 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
94,5 80,5 Attack 2
94,5 80,5 Attack 3
94,5 80,5 Attack 4
94,5 80,5 Attack 5
94,5 80,5 Attack 6
94,5 80,5 Attack 7
94,5 80,5 Attack 8
94,5 80,5 Attack 9
94,5 80,5 Attack 10
94,5 80,5 Attack 11
94,5 80,5 Attack 12
94,5 80,5 Attack 13
94,5 80,5 Attack 14
94,5 80,5 Attack 15
94,5 80,5 Attack 16
185 157 Attack 17
185 157 Attack 18
316,25 267,25 Attack 19
330,25 281,25 Attack 20
121,7 103,5 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
50 50 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

65525,84 55726,57 Total Damage
24250,48 Damage/M
218,42 185,76 Damage/S
404,17 Damage Per Second

Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
208,25 159,25 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
18 18 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
316,25 267,25 Critical Total

Khopesh: 404
DA: 398

404/398=1,5% more dps for the khopesh, vs 50% fort.

Tallyn
10-16-2009, 04:10 PM
A-O, would you be willing to do a breakdown for 100% Fort? :)

Absolute-Omniscience
10-16-2009, 04:14 PM
A-O, would you be willing to do a breakdown for 100% Fort? :)

Oh yes, sitting in an abbot so semi-busy will try to get it done while I wait for the slackers over at phase 1. :D

DA

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
DA DA Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
9 9 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
2 2 Racial damage enhancement
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
65 51 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
35 35 Effects Total
100 86 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
2 2 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
65 51 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
0 0 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
122 108 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
100 86 Attack 2
100 86 Attack 3
100 86 Attack 4
100 86 Attack 5
100 86 Attack 6
100 86 Attack 7
100 86 Attack 8
100 86 Attack 9
100 86 Attack 10
100 86 Attack 11
100 86 Attack 12
100 86 Attack 13
100 86 Attack 14
100 86 Attack 15
100 86 Attack 16
100 86 Attack 17
100 86 Attack 18
155 141 Attack 19
169 155 Attack 20
101,2 87,9 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
100 100 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

54488,21 47327,21 Total Damage
20363,08 Damage/M
181,63 157,76 Damage/S
339,38 Damage Per Second
Brb20 Dwarf Build

Special
Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
65 51 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
0 0 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
155 141 Critical Total

Khopesh

Brb20 Dwarf Build
TWF TWF Fighting Style
Weapon
Khopesh Khopesh Weapon Type
0 0 Extra Critical Threat Range
3 3 Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes Yes <Element> Burst
Yes Yes <Element> Blast
No No <Alignment> Burst
No No <Alignment> Blast

Base Damage
5,5 5,5 Weapon base damage
5 5 Weapon modifier
27 13 Strength
8 8 Power attack
2 2 Frenzied berserker set
2 2 Shintao monk set
9 9 Song
1 1 Prayer
No No Bladesworn
59,5 45,5 Total Base

Effects
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 <Element>
21 21 Vicious
2,5 2,5 Slicing
0 0 Other effects
1 1 Force ritual
35 35 Effects Total
94,5 80,5 Total Base With Effects

Critical Hits
6 6 Seeker
4 4 Critical threat range
3 3 Critical multiplier
59,5 45,5 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
11 11 <Element> Burst
11 11 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
0 0 Total seeker damage
22 22 Critical Effects
116,5 102,5 Critical Total

0 0 Attack 1
94,5 80,5 Attack 2
94,5 80,5 Attack 3
94,5 80,5 Attack 4
94,5 80,5 Attack 5
94,5 80,5 Attack 6
94,5 80,5 Attack 7
94,5 80,5 Attack 8
94,5 80,5 Attack 9
94,5 80,5 Attack 10
94,5 80,5 Attack 11
94,5 80,5 Attack 12
94,5 80,5 Attack 13
94,5 80,5 Attack 14
94,5 80,5 Attack 15
94,5 80,5 Attack 16
116,5 102,5 Attack 17
116,5 102,5 Attack 18
149,5 135,5 Attack 19
163,5 149,5 Attack 20
98,18 84,88 Average Damage

Mob Immunities
100 100 Fortification
0 0 Damage reduction
0 0 Elemental resistance

Relevant Attack Data
5 5 Minutes lapsed
0 0 Number of haste boosts
0 0 Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0 0 Haste boost
0 0 Number of Smites
0 0 Divine Sacrifice Interval
No No Superior TWF
No No Quick draw

Attackspeed
0 0 Number of haste boosts used
83 83 Normal
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other
107,68 107,68 Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42 538,42 Total Amount of Attacks

52859,48 45698,48 Total Damage
19711,59 Damage/M
176,2 152,33 Damage/S
328,53 Damage Per Second
Brb20 Dwarf Build

Special
Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6 6 Seeker
6 6 Critical multiplier
59,5 45,5 Base critical damage
35 35 Effects
27,5 27,5 <Element> Burst
27,5 27,5 <Element> Blast
0 0 Alignment Burst
0 0 Alignment Blast
14 14 Natural 20
0 0 Total seeker damage
55 55 Critical Effects
149,5 135,5 Critical Total

Khopesh: 328
DA: 339

339/328=3,3% more dps for the DA

0% fort:
Khopesh 5,2% more dps

50% fort:
Khopesh 1,5% more dps

100% fort:
DA 3,3% more dps

Tallyn
10-16-2009, 04:47 PM
Very cool, thank you A-O. This confirms my thoughts that the difference between Khopesh and Dwarven Axe really are just a matter of preference.

Ginetti
01-13-2010, 11:03 AM
Do these results take into account the bursting properties of mineral 2 weapons?

like the extra acid damage on a crit from burst etc?

Either way, looks good.

How would the comparison be made looking at 20 kensai, as opposed to 20 barbs?

Ulf
02-04-2010, 12:53 PM
Ginetti, yes the numbers posted are inculding bursts.

However, the numbers assume a lot of stuff:

1. A-O numbers are for FB barb, not a kensai.
2. Include every possible buff and piece of gear (unrealistic)
3. Assume no misses (unrealistic in high end dungeons)
4. All damage treated equal (no dr or resistance on mobs, again unrealistic)
5. No fort (unrealisitc)

All of these assumptions favor the kopesh. In reality a dwarf will do more damage with a D Axe than a kopesh. Now a WF with kopesh will be marginally ahead of a dwarf with D Axe.

As to how the comparison of kensai instead of barb would be different, here are some of the differences.
1. vicious damage
2. +1 crit range
3. +3 PA
4. 3 extra crit multiplier on 19,20
5. rage
6. power surge
7. capstones
8. haste boosts

favor kopesh if barb (1,2,3,5,7)
favor D. Axe if barb (4,6)
favor neither (8)

ThePrisoner
05-26-2011, 03:43 AM
In the first post, to calculate base damages the khopesh crit damage is multiplied by 4/20, while the dwarven axe crit damage is multiplied by 2/18. If the dwarven axe crit damage is multiplied by 2/20, as it seems it should be, the base damage total would be 54.6 rather than 56.3.

LazyMantis
07-25-2011, 03:17 PM
Dwarves fight with axes! Dat's HOW WE DO!!!

TheDjinnFor
07-25-2011, 03:50 PM
Ok... Let's do some math.

All numbers apply for a dwarven str ranger with +6 seeker, as originally posted by the OP.

Min 2 vs Harry (50% fort, resistance to acid 30)

Khopesh (Holy - Acid Burst - Acid Blast)
Miss (1): 0
Hit (2-16): 1d10 + 5 + base + 7 (holy)
Resist (17-18): 1d10 + 5 + base + 7 (holy)
Crit (19): 3d10 + 15 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy)
Vorpal (20): 3d10 + 15 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy)
= 23d10 + 115 + 23*base + 6*seeker + 133
= 410.5 + 23*base

Dwarven Axe (Holy - Acid Burst - Acid Blast)
Miss (1): 0
Hit (2-18): 2d8 + 7 + base + 7 (holy)
Resist (19): 2d8 + 7 + base + 7 (holy)
Vorpal (20): 6d8 + 21 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy)
= 42d8 + 147 + 21*base + 3*seeker + 133
= 487 + 21*base

410.5 + 23*base = 487 + 21*base
2*base = 76.5
base = 38.25

Conclusion: Khopesh > Dwarven Axe if base damage of khopesh is >38 (includes power attack, strength bonus, bard buffs, prayer, etc. but not weapon enhancement bonus), unless the +2 to hit that the dwarven axe helps the daxe hit better than the khopesh.

A fully buffed base damage of over 38 requires (+5 PA +1 prayer +8 bard songs +2 shintao +4 eclaw = 20) a 46 fully buffed strength. So this is not really that attainable.

Lit 2 versus trash (0% fort, no resistance to electricity)

Khopesh (Holy - Shocking Burst - Shocking Blast)
Miss (1): 0
Hit (2-16): 1d10 + 5 + base + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock)
Crit (17-19): 3d10 + 15 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock) + 11 (shocking burst) + 11 (shocking blast)
Vorpal (20): 3d10 + 15 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock) + 11 (shocking burst) + 11 (shocking blast) + 14 (shocking blast)
= 27d10 + 135 + 27*base + 12*seeker + 133 + 66.5 + 88 + 14
= 657 + 27*base + lightning strike (~600 @ 2% chance = ~240 damage per 20 swings)

Dwarven Axe (Holy - Shocking Burst - Shocking Blast)
Miss (1): 0
Hit (2-18): 2d8 + 7 + base + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock)
Crit (19): 6d8 + 21 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock) + 11 (shocking burst) + 11 (shocking blast)
Vorpal (20): 6d8 + 21 + 3*base + 3*seeker + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (shock) + 11 (shocking burst) + 11 (shocking blast) + 14 (shocking blast)
= 46d8 + 161 + 23*base + 6*seeker + 133 + 66.5 + 44 + 14
= 648.5 + 23*base + lightning strike (~600 @ 2% chance = ~240 damage per 20 swings)

Conclusion: Khopesh is always better. The degree to which this is true depends on your strength.

Beethoven
07-25-2011, 03:59 PM
Then how come alot of number crunching posts have the Khopesh ahead of Dwarven Axe?

The difference comes out a bit low since the OP effectively compares Khopesh vs DA+Racial Enhancements. Many calculations have Khopesh further ahead because they also factor in other variables, such as:

* Warforged: many WF melee builds have no issue hitting things and thus can easily afford spend a couple AP on PA enhancements (say 3). That's another 3 damage. So, alone using the OP's numbers the WF Khopesh user pulls ahead by 4 damage a swing.
* Horc: they get +2 damage from STR enhancements alone (which also helps their to-hit). They can even more easily afford taking PA enhancements (say also 3). The Horc Khopesh user would pull ahead by 6 damage a swing. That's significant.

The second issue particularly with DA is that we still don't have anything better than GS. Run a comparison between a GS DA and a epic Chaosblade vs lawful targets (for instance) and the Khopesh is going pull even further ahead.

So, you are not wrong saying weapon vs weapon the difference does not look that large (same holds true with scimitars and elves). However, once you have a Khopesh user that also has some racial damage enhancements and once you include what loot is available things start looking a tad different. It's why we have a lot of players argumenting it gets time to boost racial bonuses a bit (ie: elven and dwarven attack and damage enhancements with their respective favored weapons) and (particularly for dwarves) decent epic versions.