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Cyr
06-19-2008, 04:09 PM
For those who do not know this is a new outfit from Ghosts of Perdidtion. It gives an unheard of +4 dodge (yes dodge the one that stacks) bonus to AC and binds on aquire. Clearly this is the superior outfit/robe for any dex build and even for some high dex str builds. In dex builds it is increasing the max. obtainable AC by 4. This is not a bad thing in my mind since the outfit/robe choices have been pretty poor since gianthold released.

There is one major problem with this item though...where it drops. There is one other good outfit out there, the one from vision. It was very respectable, did not raise max AC at all but condensed a slot for monks and had the interesting (if not uber) banishing fists power. The outfit from ghosts is clearly superior for 95% of builds (being generous here). Why in the same module release an 18th level raid with loot that is clearly inferior to the loot you put in a 14th level loot run quest. Then to further compound the sillyness make it bind on aquire in a quest that really is built to be run by casters. Was there some sort of confusion by the devs that people really wanted to grind ghosts of perdition with monks/rogues/rangers?

In the future please put the superior item (that replaces another item) in the top raid content, not the 2 mod old junk quest. Oh and bind on aquire loot from 6 man quests not very cool either. Basically the toons you really need to complete the quest quickly do not want the item so you are left to forming guild groups where you take turns with someone playing their dex build. I guess I should just thank my lucky stars that it was not put at the end of shadow crypt.

Lithic
06-19-2008, 04:19 PM
I must disagree with the spirit of your post. They should put the BEST items in the LEAST run quests. The ghosts outfit was the perfect way to get non-casters in there. Now if they could only put a +8 seeker necklace in Faithful departed...

Impaqt
06-19-2008, 04:21 PM
ANd Kardins Eye comes out of PoP, and the Bloodstone comes out of a rare L10 Encounter.....

I'm all for adding cool names loot to quests that arent run enough. Very nice move Devs...

Issip
06-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Seriously? The ethereal bracers were already in there, which is better named loot than 95% of the quests in the game, now a +4 dodge item? I suppose I could always use an extra set of those so hopefully I'll pick some more up when I grind that quest out on my ranger to get the outfit.

I certainly wouldn't consider ghosts of perdidtion a "little run quest" nor a quest that was lacking in named loot.

GlassCannon
06-19-2008, 04:31 PM
I must disagree with the spirit of your post. They should put the BEST items in the LEAST run quests. The ghosts outfit was the perfect way to get non-casters in there. Now if they could only put a +8 seeker necklace in Faithful departed...

In the END CHEST and let everyone know about it. :D

GlassCannon
06-19-2008, 04:31 PM
Seriously? The ethereal bracers were already in there, which is better named loot than 95% of the quests in the game, now a +4 dodge item? I suppose I could always use an extra set of those so hopefully I'll pick some more up when I grind that quest out on my ranger to get the outfit.

I certainly wouldn't consider ghosts of perdidtion a "little run quest" nor a quest that was lacking in named loot.

I'd rather have Tharne's set. Those are nice for twinking though, despite the fact that in my 40 runs I have yet to even see the Etherial Bracers drop.

rimble
06-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Monks really got the AC hookup, damn my poor armor wearing tank and his foolish dreams of thinking armor and shield would protect him better than a robe and two-weapon fighting.

Issip
06-19-2008, 05:09 PM
I don't wear the bracers full time on any toon, but I sure like them for incorporal mobs. Nothing like a +2 transmuting dwarf axe of disruption and a set of ethereal bracers to tear through a mixed bag of undead!

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 05:09 PM
I must disagree with the spirit of your post. They should put the BEST items in the LEAST run quests. The ghosts outfit was the perfect way to get non-casters in there. Now if they could only put a +8 seeker necklace in Faithful departed...

That's not the perfect way to get non-casters in there. That is, in fact, a TERRIBLE way to get non-casters in there.

They should be in the party because they can contribute, not subject the rest of the party to their presence just so they could get a pull.

Just saying... that's the equivalent of putting a 25 strength level in a quest, and I've always hated that.

Lithic
06-19-2008, 05:28 PM
That's not the perfect way to get non-casters in there. That is, in fact, a TERRIBLE way to get non-casters in there.

They should be in the party because they can contribute, not subject the rest of the party to their presence just so they could get a pull.

Just saying... that's the equivalent of putting a 25 strength level in a quest, and I've always hated that.

I dont think its a bad way to get non-casters in there. It just lets players think "hey i can make the run easier with 4 casters/2 clerics, or I can bring my rogue and hope to get the outfit". Your example is wrong because a 25str lever would be mandatory, where as you can still run ghosts with the usual 4caster/2cleric group if you like.

Twerpp
06-19-2008, 06:02 PM
I've always thought it was a very fun quest. Rangers kick ass in there too BTW.

MrCow
06-19-2008, 06:06 PM
I'm sure there might be a few casters out there who want the outfit for what it is.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 06:19 PM
There is one major problem with this item though...where it drops. There is one other good outfit out there, the one from vision. It was very respectable, did not raise max AC at all but condensed a slot for monks and had the interesting (if not uber) banishing fists power. The outfit from ghosts is clearly superior for 95% of builds (being generous here). Why in the same module release an 18th level raid with loot that is clearly inferior to the loot you put in a 14th level loot run quest.
That's quite right. It's ludicrous that GOP drops an outfit so superior to the one from VOD. The idea of rare loot being bind-on-acquire is not a bad one in general, but this is an especially poor place to start doing it, since monks are so clearly unneeded in GOP.

Separately, Turbine made a basically equivalent error with another piece of new loot added in module 7: the Spectral Gloves added to Vulkor Spiral are superior to the Ethereal Bracers from GOP and Steady-Handed Armbands from Madstone, both higher-level quests. In addition the Spectral Gloves are competitive with the Tumbleweed Ring from Hound of Xoriat, the other new level 18 raid.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 06:23 PM
I dont think its a bad way to get non-casters in there. It just lets players think "hey i can make the run easier with 4 casters/2 clerics, or I can bring my rogue and hope to get the outfit".
Yes, it lets players think that, which is anti-fun and conducive to boredom. It means the rogues/monks/rangers are basically helpless baggage on the quest to gain their ultra armor.... reduced to begging for a generous caster to run them through the quest, or pushed into mercenary considerations of actually paying the guy XXX plat per run.

The alternative, of course, is to run the quest on casters then relog to rogues/monks/rangers and come in to loot. And in fact, I've been doing a bit of that today.

Lithic
06-19-2008, 06:50 PM
Yes, it lets players think that, which is anti-fun and conducive to boredom. It means the rogues/monks/rangers are basically helpless baggage on the quest to gain their ultra armor.... reduced to begging for a generous caster to run them through the quest, or pushed into mercenary considerations of actually paying the guy XXX plat per run.

The alternative, of course, is to run the quest on casters then relog to rogues/monks/rangers and come in to loot. And in fact, I've been doing a bit of that today.

Just because a rogue/monk/ranger might not be the BEST class to bring, doesnt mean they are useless to those groups. By your reasoning ANY melee in any gianthold quest is begging for the generous casters to lead them through pop, crucible, feast or famine, etc. AFter all THOSE quests are most easily done with 5 sorcs and a cleric.

Worst case, get 6 guildmates together. 5 bring their casters/clerics and one gets to bring his outfit-hunter. Finish the quest, if the outfit pops it goes to the one seeking it. Next run, someone else gets to be outfit-hunter.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 07:00 PM
ANY melee in any gianthold quest is begging for the generous casters to lead them through pop, crucible, feast or famine, etc. AFter all THOSE quests are most easily done with 5 sorcs and a cleric.
That is obviously untrue.

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 07:37 PM
Worst case, get 6 guildmates together. 5 bring their casters/clerics and one gets to bring his outfit-hunter. Finish the quest, if the outfit pops it goes to the one seeking it. Next run, someone else gets to be outfit-hunter.

Exactly. And that's not fun, and it's stupid to game the system like that.

If they just put it in a quest where monks would be useful, it would solve such petty problems like relogging a different character than he that completes the quest.

That's exactly why I said it was a bad idea.

KaKa
06-19-2008, 09:17 PM
Quest placement is the obvious issue here. Ghosts already has great special named items. Offering of blood already has great special named items, the desert area leading to blood has great awesome named items. You know where doesn't have awesome named items? The subterranean! Perfect place to put some special named items in the rare encounter chests, some of those rare bosses are so cool but once you've explored it once, why go in there for anything else but beelining to the raid entrances?

It looks like the same thought that went into the flavor text of the raid loot also went into the placement of the new named loot.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 11:17 PM
Quest placement is the obvious issue here. Ghosts already has great special named items. Offering of blood already has great special named items, the desert area leading to blood has great awesome named items. You know where doesn't have awesome named items? The subterranean!
There's two separate problems.

The more clear-cut mistake is the question of where to put items like this. Ghosts of Perdition pretty clearly did not need more good loot, and it certainly didn't need better loot than much higher-level raids.

But also in the case of Icy Rainment there is the question of whether it should have been added to the game at all. As a general rule, magic items with Dodge bonuses on them are very dubious. There's a good reason why the rulebooks say "Magic items cannot have a dodge bonus". The amount by which it exceeds previous items may be too much. After all, it would probably still be attractive if it only gave +2 dodge, not a full +4.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 11:29 PM
Antithesis:
Drops from Inferno of the Damned, a level 14 orchard quest which is fairly long, and which has a moderately balanced demand for classes
+4 Protection (true neutral only)
+4 Resistance (true neutral only)
Weak fire/ice guard (nearly worthless)

Icy Rainment
Drops from Ghost of Perdition, a level 14 orchard quest which is very short, and which is skewed caster/cleric only
+4 Protection
+3 Resistance
+4 Dodge


Look at that horrid imbalance. The shorter quest gives an item that, in exchange for only -1 resistance, eliminates the stringent alignment restriction AND gives an enormous +4 dodge bonus.

Tanka
06-19-2008, 11:32 PM
But also in the case of Icy Rainment there is the question of whether it should have been added to the game at all. As a general rule, magic items with Dodge bonuses on them are very dubious. There's a good reason why the rulebooks say "Magic items cannot have a dodge bonus".
You keep stating this rule, and I keep pointing out where you're wrong.

DMG, p. 21.


Dodge: A dodge bonus enhances a character's ability to get out of the way quickly. Dodge bonuses do stack with other dodge bonuses. Spells and magic items occasionally grant dodge bonuses.
So, yes, a magic item can grant a Dodge bonus.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 11:37 PM
You keep stating this rule, and I keep pointing out where you're wrong.
No, you don't.

I just said that rule exists in a "rulebook". I did not specify which one, and I did not claim that no other book decided to violate or override that rule.

What I just did say is that there is a good reason for Dodge magic items to be prohibited like that, and that is 100% TRUE.

Tanka
06-19-2008, 11:39 PM
Which rulebook, then, states that Dodge bonuses are prohibited on magic items? Because I'd like a source and verification on that one.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 11:40 PM
Which rulebook, then, states that Dodge bonuses are prohibited on magic items? Because I'd like a source and verification on that one.

Players Handbook page 307. Also Epic Level Handbook page 123.

Tanka
06-19-2008, 11:45 PM
Players Handbook page 307.
Thank you.

I do think, however, that the DMG supersedes the PHB in this case, as it's a guide for creating said items.

Also; Haste proves the exception to the rule (as presented in the PHB, at least). It specifically grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC for the duration.

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 11:51 PM
Also; Haste proves the exception to the rule (as presented in the PHB, at least). It specifically grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC for the duration.
The Haste spell does not grant a Dodge bonus. Haste speeds you up, making you "hasted", which provides several benefits including +1 Dodge AC. But Haste does not directly grant a Dodge bonus, which is an important subtle distinction with implications for stacking and forward-compatibility.

Tanka
06-19-2008, 11:56 PM
PHB says no (and Epic Level Handbook, but we're not there yet in actual levels so I'm going to ignore it for now), DMG says yes.

Generally, it seems more like "the player cannot craft a magic item with a Dodge bonus, however the DM is the DM and can do whatever he bloody well pleases."

In this case, Turbine is playing DM and doing whatever they bloody well please.

Balance-wise, there will always be a tradeoff. More AC (usually) means lower DPS -- taking longer to finish the quest and generally annoying zergers.

Is it unbalancing? There's worse out there. IMO, all of the Dodge bonus equipment should be BoA, making it a tad harder to get those Chaosgardes.

Turial
06-20-2008, 07:35 AM
Icy Rainment
Drops from Ghost of Perdition, a level 14 orchard quest which is very short, and which is skewed caster/cleric only
+4 Protection
+3 Resistance
+4 Dodge


Look at that horrid imbalance. The shorter quest gives an item that, in exchange for only -1 resistance, eliminates the stringent alignment restriction AND gives an enormous +4 dodge bonus.

You can also add that it is easier for low platinum bearing players to obtain then say the white dragon robes which prior to this little item was one of the better armors for dex based AC characters.

Scale robe would take on average 30 ish runs to get (took me 41 due to bad luck) where as the rainment could be obtained on run number 1 for better results.

tihocan
06-20-2008, 08:51 AM
As a side note, it should change nothing about who you bring in the quest. Just do the same as for favor: run the quest with your caster/cleric, and switch to your monk before completing. Just make sure at least one person stays in because it looks like you can't talk to the beholder anymore otherwise.

That being said, I think +4 dodge on an outfit is too powerful as well.

Zaodon
06-20-2008, 09:14 AM
The Haste spell does not grant a Dodge bonus. Haste speeds you up, making you "hasted", which provides several benefits including +1 Dodge AC. But Haste does not directly grant a Dodge bonus,

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong. Haste directly grants you a Dodge bonus.

Illuminati
06-20-2008, 09:49 AM
I love how I see thread after thread of how AC = worthless now but +4 dodge (you still lose and armor bonus slot btw) , which in effect gives you only +3 total is broken.

Dex Toon 1:
Armor: White Dragon +6 Armor
Bracers: +2 Dodge
=8 Total

Dex Toon 2:
Armor: Icy Rainment +4 Dodge
Bracers: +7 Armor
=11

Dodge bonuses stack up to +10 in PnP I thought? Anyway, I don't see these as omg111 remove from game items. When I first came back, I thought that Madstone Boots were the most broken thing I ever saw.

flynnsane
06-20-2008, 09:59 AM
Can Armored Bracers be used in the Alchemical Ritual to increase their bonus by 1?

If not, then the Icy Raimant only adds +2 overall as the Dragonscale robes can be Alchimcal-ized....

Selinius
06-20-2008, 10:02 AM
Meh, the only way to really push your ac with the new outfit is to have +7/8 AC bracers and those aren't exactly common. Plus, we are missing the biggest point, what does the outfit look like?

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 10:08 AM
Can Armored Bracers be used in the Alchemical Ritual to increase their bonus by 1?

If not, then the Icy Raimant only adds +2 overall as the Dragonscale robes can be Alchimcal-ized....

The Icy Rainment could be.....

Qzipoun
06-20-2008, 10:11 AM
Can Armored Bracers be used in the Alchemical Ritual to increase their bonus by 1?

If not, then the Icy Raimant only adds +2 overall as the Dragonscale robes can be Alchimcal-ized....

Ummm... you realize that the Icy Rainment can be "Alchimcal-ized" too, right?

Issip
06-20-2008, 10:17 AM
Since this item is so easy to get how many people have one? I ran the quest last night about 10 times and never saw it. This isn't surprising as I ran that quest about 200 times for ethereal bracers and came away with 2 sets. So these things bind, if you want them for a certain toon you can ransack once per week. I am guessing an average of 5 ransacks per rainment pulled (based upon the frequency of ethereal bracer drops and the fact that I saw 6 people loot through one ransacking without seeing one - that's the equivelent of 6 ransacks, no rainment).

Easier than pulling from a Vision of Destruction? Probably. Something any one can just go pick up in 10 minutes? No, more like 5 weeks, on average, and I expect threads of people whining about how they've ransacked it every week for the last 6 months and never gotten it.

Issip

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 10:18 AM
I love how I see thread after thread of how AC = worthless now but +4 dodge (you still lose and armor bonus slot btw) , which in effect gives you only +3 total is broken.

You know better than that. No one said that AC is worthless for characters that gear up for it. The problem with AC is there is no benefit to doing it halfway. It takes far too many inventory slots to spec out for AC, and you lose so much potential DPS, both in inventory management and character creation.

With that said... items like this only make it that much worse. It's adding a max AC 3 higher than it was 2 weeks ago, and that new max AC will have to be considered when making more monster attack bonuses, which will make it even more worthless for a fighter to try to hit 40-45ish AC.

People are used to being able to just equip some high bonus full plate, high bonus shield, and then maybe a protection and natural AC item and be pretty impervious. But in this game, you have to take into consideration being a dex character, farming the titan, then farming xorian cipher, now farming Ghosts of Perdition, etc.

They need to release more items that bring AC up for everyone but the 'max' people. Items with +4 natural bonus and +4 deflection. Things that might give 8 AC to a normal fighter, but a max AC build was already getting 10 from other places.

Items like this only increase the disparity, and it's bad for the game.

EDIT:

AND STOP PUTTING DODGE BONUSES ON ITEMS.

That's part of the problem right there. If you're going to put dodge items in the game... make them all go on the same inventory slot.

Aeneas
06-20-2008, 10:19 AM
I think many are missing the bigger picture here. A fighter or dwarven build that strives for AC pre-icy raiment uses mithral armor paired with good dex and armor mastery enhancements. With the new +4 dodge bonus from the raiment that same build can actually add a couple points of AC via some +7 or 8 AC bonus bracers (easy to find on AH for the 7's, 8's are still a bit tough) and in addition to this AC improvement drop between 2 and 24 AP's depending on how invested they were in armor mastery.

I know for myself that on my intimitank rogue this robe would in the end mean that i'm gaining 2 AC over my current BP of vol, chaosguarde, dwarve armor mastery 3, fighter armor mastery I setup and i would get 14 AP's back to further increase the overall power of my character. In addition i would stop wearing my +4 resist cloak and possibly my +5 protection item freeing up two nice slots for something else.

The raiment is very uber and should have been raid loot.

Angelus_dead
06-20-2008, 12:07 PM
I think many are missing the bigger picture here. A fighter or dwarven build that strives for AC pre-icy raiment uses mithral armor paired with good dex and armor mastery enhancements. With the new +4 dodge bonus from the raiment that same build can actually add a couple points of AC via some +7 or 8 AC bonus bracers
Yes, the Icy Rainment raised the high-water mark for max possible AC by +4. If the Icy Vestament had been Prot 4 Resist 3 and Dodge+1, it would still have been a good item. Dodge+2 would have been even better... but Dodge+4 is bordering on insanely good.

Previously your best item-based AC was:
Protection +5
Chattering +3
Chaosgarde +2 OR Armor Bracer +8
Robe +0 OR White Scale Robe +6
Seal of Earth +3
Insight Weapon +4
=
total 23 OR 23

Now, the left-hand option in that calculation has gone from Robe +0 to Robe +4, for a total of 27 AC. That's before dexterity, wisdom, monk levels, dodge feat, combat expertise, halfling size, shield spell, paladin aura, barkskin, action boost, uncanny dodge, and inspire heroics.

Personally, I can no longer justify raiding Vision of Destruction on any high-dex character unless you're either wearing the Icy Rainment, or at least ransacked on the chest. It's just irresponsible to ask other people to heal you when you could have gotten such a higher AC before the raid.

Turial
06-20-2008, 12:15 PM
Dodge bonuses stack up to +10 in PnP I thought?

Yes, but DDO has broken a few things in the transition from pnp to MMO. Its possible that we won't have the 10 dodge restriction.

4 outfit + 1 alchemical + 3 chattering ring + 1 dodge feat + 1 haste = 10, only way to go over that would be a second haste from a triple air item or the +1 alchemical shield (assuming they change both the armor and shield rituals to be dodge bonuses).

Angelus_dead
06-20-2008, 12:17 PM
Yes, but DDO has broken a few things in the transition from pnp to MMO. Its possible that we won't have the 10 dodge restriction.
No, D&D has no restriction on the maximum total Dodge bonus.

That's a myth apparently spread by people who learned D&D by playing Neverwinter Nights.

Tanka
06-20-2008, 12:24 PM
No, D&D has no restriction on the maximum total Dodge bonus.

That's a myth apparently spread by people who learned D&D by playing Neverwinter Nights.
Which is true of far too many people. Just as in DDO, NWN had to make some *ahem* adjustments to get all the rules to work well in a PC setting.

(For instance, in NWN1, magic items and Rage didn't always stack right -- you could easily hit the Str cap as a Barbarian.)

KoolHand
06-20-2008, 12:25 PM
run thru it as fast as a caster/cleric group boooo whooooooooo.... Our w/f soc,barb,fighter group ate the quest up all the time. Did we do as fast as a 6 man cleric,caster group ? NOPE. Did we have any trouble in there ? NOPE. So it may take another 6 mins to complete, stop the freekin crying... This population is looking more like gradeschoolers then adults..

Illuminati
06-20-2008, 12:29 PM
Yeah, but you are also supposed to lose Dexterity bonuses to AC when flat footed or held, blah blah blah and touch AC.... Those were the days.

aurus33
06-20-2008, 12:35 PM
Did I miss the screeshot of this wonderful robe?

I want one!!!

Turial
06-20-2008, 12:37 PM
.... and touch AC.... Those were the days.

That would make me very happy as a ranger....almost as happy as a ranged ROA speed increase or a manyshot balancing.

Pellegro
06-20-2008, 01:06 PM
+4 dodge.

Nice for sure.

Game breaking? Hardly.

maddmatt70
06-20-2008, 01:38 PM
I expected a couple of comments about how ridiculous an advantage the no armor ac characters now have over the armor wearing ac characters. Whatever happened to the stout fighters or paladins in their ironclad full plate at least as an alternative to the shirt wearing dodgey characters? I guess we just saw the last ironclads being built because if somebody wants to make an ac character now they will not be making a mithral full plate wearing paladin or fighter, but instead some high dex character wearing no armor. The no fun police just put in an appearance I think..

Twerpp
06-20-2008, 01:41 PM
ninja ac > tank ac

nice freakin robe I was ransacked hours after it appearance

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 01:45 PM
+4 dodge.

Nice for sure.

Game breaking? Hardly.

Game-breaking? Nah. The ship sailed on AC a long time ago, and it's no longer an effective goal for tanks that specialize in anything other than intimidating.

This just exacerbated that problem by moving the highest AC up just a little more.

It's ok... there are other ways to mitigate damage than AC... this just makes those a little more important.

Twerpp
06-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Game-breaking? Nah. The ship sailed on AC a long time ago, and it's no longer an effective goal for tanks that specialize in anything other than intimidating.

This just exacerbated that problem by moving the highest AC up just a little more.

It's ok... there are other ways to mitigate damage than AC... this just makes those a little more important.


Good thing we arent talking about tanks. We are talking about dex-based and super high dex combat toons.

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 01:52 PM
Good thing we arent talking about tanks. We are talking about dex-based and super high dex combat toons.

Tanks are going to have to be high dex to achieve a high enough AC to tank in high level raids.

Tanks don't necessarily mean someone in heavy armor. It's the person with the high AC who's capable of tanking. Hell... light and no armor tanks make better tanks by the addition of evasion.

Twerpp
06-20-2008, 01:57 PM
Ahh well. We just dont define tank the same way. My rogue beats a lot of tanks AC and by your definition can "tank" better.

I see it as a type whose role is to avoid and absorb massive amounts of punishment while maintaining aggro thus allowing the party to more effectively achieve their respective roles. I do agree that evasion tanks > than plain AC tanks, assuming they didnt sacrifice too much AC for evasion.

Aspenor
06-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Ahh well. We just dont define tank the same way. My rogue beats a lot of tanks AC and by your definition can "tank" better.

I see it as a type whose role is to avoid and absorb massive amounts of punishment while maintaining aggro thus allowing the party to more effectively achieve their respective roles. I do agree that evasion tanks > than plain AC tanks, assuming they didnt sacrifice too much AC for evasion.

I think the point here is that now monks would make better intimitanks than fighter/paladins ;)

*remembers a thread by Kargon asking for intimidate as a monk class skill*

Cyr
06-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Hehe, I did not even get into any real discussion about this item being broken.

I was just trying to point out the absurdity of it's placement in a quest clearly favored by casters, making it bind on aquire (tell me how many other non-raid items have that distinction), and the fact that it is way way better then any other outfit out there including from the two new 18th level raids. I understand the desire to add good loot to little run quests as an incentive to get players back in there, but the cloak and etheral bracers dropped in ghosts already and were level appropriate. If the devs really wanted players to run a little run quest more it should have been added to the Abbot loot tables...that would have been a more appropriate placement of this item for it's level of power. It also would have made people run the abbot prereq's a reasonable amount of time (not just one of them over and over again) to get toons ready including all their new monks.

debo
06-20-2008, 02:05 PM
Maybe that it binds on acquire is a bug???

maddmatt70
06-20-2008, 02:07 PM
My gut says that all 4 orchard quests got a new big time loot item. The speculation is the belt of thoughtful remembrance drops in the fleshmakers (no verification if this is true). It is also likely that something new drops in the inferno and vol..

Angelus_dead
06-20-2008, 02:15 PM
My gut says that all 4 orchard quests got a new big time loot item. The speculation is the belt of thoughtful remembrance drops in the fleshmakers (no verification if this is true). It is also likely that something new drops in the inferno and vol..
Inferno has a +5 holy kama of cold 30 (sucks). I don't know what Vol might have.

It also seems likely that Gianthold Tor has some new monk item...

Strumpoo
06-20-2008, 02:22 PM
Who brings casters in that quest anyway..

6 Rangers...FTW! :eek::D

Twerpp
06-20-2008, 02:33 PM
I think the point here is that now monks would make better intimitanks than fighter/paladins ;)

*remembers a thread by Kargon asking for intimidate as a monk class skill*


Unfortunately its a cross-class skill, they are already tapped on stats as it is, have a d8 hp raise...theres much more wrong to this scenario but..

the plusses are, they can afford the feats to get +5 intimidate....and they can hit higher ac assuming they pour a very generous portion of their stats in wis and dex.

We are pretty much on the first generation of monks, the first new playable class ever, there will be changes in the future I'm sure. It's hard to tell how they will end up and hopefully we'll be amazed at what they can do. Im not sure they can handle this effectively without gimping their other abilities and basically becoming an intimi-bot.

edit:way off topic sorry

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Unfortunately its a cross-class skill, they are already tapped on stats as it is, have a d8 hp raise...theres much more wrong to this scenario but..

the plusses are, they can afford the feats to get +5 intimidate....and they can hit higher ac assuming they pour a very generous portion of their stats in wis and dex.

We are pretty much on the first generation of monks, the first new playable class ever, there will be changes in the future I'm sure. It's hard to tell how they will end up and hopefully we'll be amazed at what they can do. Im not sure they can handle this effectively without gimping their other abilities and basically becoming an intimi-bot.

edit:way off topic sorry

Paladins don't have intimidate as a class skill either. That doesn't keep them from being effective intimitanks.

I know a lot of other fighters that gimp their other abilities in favor of becoming a DPS-bot. Being an intimi-bot is basically the same thing. AC already requires such focus and dedication, that you're going to gimp yourself by simply having 5-6 items dedicated to AC anyways.

Monks may just become the new intimi-tanks... and they'll find their niche as a series of 12 monk/2 pal/2 fighter builds or some such.

Kargon
06-20-2008, 02:50 PM
and they'll find their niche as a series of 12 monk/2 pal/2 monk builds or some such.

Can make builds like that? maybe kargon would be bettermer off as an 8 Barbarian / 6 barbarian / 2 barbarian than a 14 barbarian... ;)

bobbryan2
06-20-2008, 02:57 PM
Can make builds like that? maybe kargon would be bettermer off as an 8 Barbarian / 6 barbarian / 2 barbarian than a 14 barbarian... ;)

Well, it takes some finesse to do right, but the benefits of an 8 barbarian/8 barbarian can be a lot higher than 16 barbarian.

;)

Shyver
06-20-2008, 03:00 PM
Well, it takes some finesse to do right, but the benefits of an 8 barbarian/8 barbarian can be a lot higher than 16 barbarian.

;)

Damn I'm already a lvl 14 barbarian. Is it a lost cause to go 14 barbarian/2 barbarian, or should I just re-roll now?

Mapa
06-20-2008, 06:31 PM
Damn I'm already a lvl 14 barbarian. Is it a lost cause to go 14 barbarian/2 barbarian, or should I just re-roll now?


Depends... are you a Halfling Barb?