PDA

View Full Version : Fortification



Coldin
06-19-2008, 12:06 PM
I've been wondering, with some raid bosses like the Pit Fiend having 50% fortification against crits and sneak attacks, if there were any plans to allow rogues, or other classes, the ability to reduce that fortification? At the moment, it's not a big deal, but if more and more monsters start having fortification, it's going to be very rough for rogues, whose sneak attack damage is a prime reason to bring them on a quest.

I'm just wondering if the devs have thought about this at all.

Xaearth
06-19-2008, 12:26 PM
I believe their response was: "Bring a metal companion." Either that or: "Don't die."
I can't seem to find that response in the search though...
;) :p

Impaqt
06-19-2008, 12:37 PM
Wrack COnstruct is a step in the right direction. Seems the mechanic for reducing fort is now in the game. I'd love to see some sort of wrack/reduce FOrtification enhancment.... Or Bypass Fortification....

Cant think of a catch name but something like



Rogue Level 3, 1 AP
Your study of vulnerabilities allows you to ignore 10% of a mobs fortification for purpose of Criticals/Sneat attacks. Enemies Natrually Immune to Critical hits do not sufer this penalty.

L6 20%, L9 30%, L12 40%
SO a Mobs with 100% FOrt still has 60% for against the rogue so I dont see it as being unbalancing. It ONLY applies to the attacking rogue and does not actually reduce the mobs FOrtification.

Zenako
06-19-2008, 12:41 PM
Of course what works for the Characters will then make its way into the Mob mix of skills, so expect to see enemy stealthy types with fortification bypasses as well. Gonna be a surprised PC who gets ganked while wearing Heavy Fort...

Accelerando
06-19-2008, 12:42 PM
Str based rogues don't worry too much about this. When fort is there, well its there, when it is not, we open up a can.

Xaearth
06-19-2008, 12:42 PM
Of course what works for the Characters will then make its way into the Mob mix of skills, so expect to see enemy stealthy types with fortification bypasses as well. Gonna be a surprised PC who gets ganked while wearing Heavy Fort...

Hmm... There's a spooky thought...
*goes into psychic trance*
There be cr 30 ogre and troll rogues in your future!

Accelerando
06-19-2008, 12:56 PM
I believe their response was: "Bring a metal companion." Either that or: "Don't die."
I can't seem to find that response in the search though...
;) :p

I was under the impression mobs would be able to do this a mod or two ago. Would very much like to see this and not at the
same time.

Coldin
06-19-2008, 02:00 PM
Actually, I'm rather surprised myself that the Devs haven't added monsters that can cut through player fortification. It's probably one of the biggest balance problems in the game, players being completely immune to crits, and is partly responsible for why some things hit as hard as they do. But, if fortification reduction was implemented, then the threat of crits would be back.

Of course, even if the Devs did add certain mobs that could bypass fortification, I doubt we'd see any actually reduction in monster attack power that should go along with it. :rolleyes:

ChainsawXIV
06-19-2008, 02:41 PM
I'd be very much in favor of this. I'd also love to see feat and/or enhancement choices that let us sneak attack creature types which traditionally cannot be critical hit, such as constructs, elementals, and undead. This sort of immunity exception is something we can see in the Bard enhancements which let them fascinate normally immune creature types, and in a number of pen and paper prestige classes. Alternately, this could be a property on specific weapons. I suggested something to that effect in another thread a few weeks ago.

Justifying it in in-character terms is the most obvious issue, given that there is a logical reason these creatures are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. This is easy enough to approach however, with the concept that the Rogue has learned to strike at something vital to the creature type in question - the animating magic, the connection to the negative plane, or what have you. A metaphysical vital spot rather than an anatomical one if you will.

Impaqt
06-19-2008, 02:45 PM
I'd be very much in favor of this. I'd also love to see feat and/or enhancement choices that let us sneak attack creature types which traditionally cannot be critical hit, such as constructs, elementals, and undead. This sort of immunity exception is something we can see in the Bard enhancements which let them fascinate normally immune creature types, and in a number of pen and paper prestige classes. Alternately, this could be a property on specific weapons. I suggested something to that effect in another thread a few weeks ago.

Justifying it in in-character terms is the most obvious issue, given that there is a logical reason these creatures are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. This is easy enough to approach however, with the concept that the Rogue has learned to strike at something vital to the creature type in question - the animating magic, the connection to the negative plane, or what have you. A metaphysical vital spot rather than an anatomical one if you will.

Ya Mean Liek this?


Rogue Wrack Construct I
Prereqs: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 10% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time. (6 second cooldown.)
Rogue Wrack Construct II
Prereqs: Rogue level 7, Rogue Disable Device II, Rogue Wrack Construct I, 22 Action Points Spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 3d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 20% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.
Rogue Wrack Construct III
Prereqs: Rogue level 11, Rogue Wrack Construct II, 37 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Rogue Disable Device III, <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Rogue Way</st1:address></st1:street> of the Mechanic I
Cost: 3 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 5d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 30% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.

Coldin
06-19-2008, 02:50 PM
Ya Mean Liek this?

My only major complaint against Wrack Construct is that you have to attack with it every 8 seconds. That eventually gets to be a real pain in the lower back.

lazlow
06-19-2008, 02:50 PM
I think not wearing any fort. items is the way to go, its much more realistic however you die more! Btw, i just learned that i should wear such items :), thanks for the tip but what will our cleric do if they are not rezzing me.

Aeneas
06-19-2008, 03:08 PM
Of course what works for the Characters will then make its way into the Mob mix of skills, so expect to see enemy stealthy types with fortification bypasses as well. Gonna be a surprised PC who gets ganked while wearing Heavy Fort...

Actually, around the time gianthold was new, the devs hinted that future enemies (orchard was on the way i believe) would have methods of reducing fortification.

And no, i don't know where this post is nor will i be searching for it, but it exists.

ChainsawXIV
06-19-2008, 06:20 PM
Ya Mean Liek this?

Wrack Construct is indeed on the right track. I'd like to see it for other creature types however, especialy undead since DDO contains a disproportionate number of them. Personaly, I'm also inclined towards having it as a passive ability, rather than an activated one with all the extra bells and whistles (extra damage, fortification debuff for other attackers).

Angelus_dead
06-19-2008, 06:35 PM
I've been wondering, with some raid bosses like the Pit Fiend having 50% fortification against crits and sneak attacks, if there were any plans to allow rogues, or other classes, the ability to reduce that fortification?
The percentage-based Fortification used in D&D and DDO is a bad game mechanic.

As a good rule of thumb, anything that can provide you 100% immunity to the offensive power of a core character class is a bad mechanic. To see why, look at the Spell Resistance mechanic- notice that it is an opposed level check, which means that more powerful casters can penetrate the defense. There is no equivalent way for a more powerful rogue to penetrate fortification. Once the enemy gains Heavy Fort, the rogue's abilities are flat-out useless.

The simple way to fix Fortification is to change it from a percentage to an AC bonus on the roll to confirm a critical hit (and also to make Sneak Attacks require confirmation, but using the same value as the initial attack roll). For example, Light Fort might be +5 AC against confirms and Heavy Fort might be +20 AC.

That way, characters who already had a high armor class could wear Heavy Fort to make themselves essentially immune to crits (unless the monster had such a massively higher attack bonus that AC was irrelevant). But sorcerers and barbarians jumping around with 17 AC in their fearsome robes would gain no benefit, unless the monster was weak enough that a 37 AC on the confirm roll was a real obstacle.

Conversely, if Arraetrikos used that system then you'd no longer have all rogues getting exactly 50% of sneak-attacks through. Rogues with higher attack bonuses (due to buffs, strength, weapon focus, or whatever) would get sneak damage more frequently.

Coldin
06-19-2008, 06:46 PM
The percentage-based Fortification used in D&D and DDO is a bad game mechanic.

As a good rule of thumb, anything that can provide you 100% immunity to the offensive power of a core character class is a bad mechanic. To see why, look at the Spell Resistance mechanic- notice that it is an opposed level check, which means that more powerful casters can penetrate the defense. There is no equivalent way for a more powerful rogue to penetrate fortification. Once the enemy gains Heavy Fort, the rogue's abilities are flat-out useless.

The simple way to fix Fortification is to change it from a percentage to an AC bonus on the roll to confirm a critical hit (and also to make Sneak Attacks require confirmation, but using the same value as the initial attack roll). For example, Light Fort might be +5 AC against confirms and Heavy Fort might be +20 AC.

That way, characters who already had a high armor class could wear Heavy Fort to make themselves essentially immune to crits (unless the monster had such a massively higher attack bonus that AC was irrelevant). But sorcerers and barbarians jumping around with 17 AC in their fearsome robes would gain no benefit, unless the monster was weak enough that a 37 AC on the confirm roll was a real obstacle.

Conversely, if Arraetrikos used that system then you'd no longer have all rogues getting exactly 50% of sneak-attacks through. Rogues with higher attack bonuses (due to buffs, strength, weapon focus, or whatever) would get sneak damage more frequently.

I agree with you that Fortification is a terrible mechanic, especially to balance out. But I think your suggestion wouldn't be as simple as you think, especially since it deviates from the core 3.5 rules. WoC probably wouldn't allow the change.

A line of enhancements naturally bypassing fortification would be a fine solution in my opinion. Tier I would cut through 10% fortification. Tier II would reduce fortification would reduce it by 25%. Tier III would reduce it by 45%. And Tier IV by 70%.

Ikuryo
06-19-2008, 09:31 PM
I remember them mentioning that it might be good to have over 100% Fort in response to a WF commenting about being able to hit 125% Fortification. From what I understand they are trying to get it in and the rogue skills are their first attempt.