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The_Phenx
06-18-2008, 10:16 AM
DEAR GOD.

So you put madstone boots in the game.

Fantastic... get the extra rage(s) and the 20% alacrity boost.

And then you change the potion mechanics to make they act as clickies.

So you can no longer drink potions while madstoned.

Then you put a raid boss in who curses you constantly.

So we now have to take our boots off loose the double rage and the alacrity boost vs. him or we loose our ability to be even remotely self sufficient and drink a remove curse potion.

Ummm....

WHY?

Put it back the way it was. Or make them work both ways...clickie on others potion on self.

Just silly I tell ya.

Talcyndl
06-18-2008, 10:34 AM
Agreed. As I have in every other thread on this topic I posted in.

But as an aside, the change really makes me glad both my fighter and barb have 'Immunity to pretty much everything" goggles from the Shroud. VERY useful item.

The_Phenx
06-18-2008, 10:38 AM
I knew there would be other threads... lol.

I just felt the need to post without looking. :D

I have the third tier immunity gloves on my fighter... but it unfortunately doesn't include curses...

Beherit_Baphomar
06-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Potions are very hard to drink.

First you have to figure out where in yer backpack they are.
Second you gotta get that childproof cork out the top.
Third you gotta raise it to yer lips.
Fourth you gotta swallow.

:rolleyes:

Just so you know Turbine my barbarian would EAT the bottle whole, glass and all, while raged...

Lorien_the_First_One
06-18-2008, 11:44 AM
Potions are very hard to drink.

First you have to figure out where in yer backpack they are.
Second you gotta get that childproof cork out the top.
Third you gotta raise it to yer lips.
Fourth you gotta swallow.

:rolleyes:

Just so you know Turbine my barbarian would EAT the bottle whole, glass and all, while raged...

As a DM, I'd be good with that... but you would take 1d4 damage from the glass pieces in your mouth. Could be funny for cure light potions...

The_Phenx
06-18-2008, 11:53 AM
And an extra 1d4 a day later and every 24 hours until its passed your colon.

Lithic
06-18-2008, 12:08 PM
And an extra 1d4 a day later and every 24 hours until its passed your colon.

With complete forfeiture of any surprise round until the glass has been "expelled"

GreyRogue
06-18-2008, 12:33 PM
As a DM, I'd be good with that... but you would take 1d4 damage from the glass pieces in your mouth. Could be funny for cure light potions...
I always thought that's what barbarian DR was for! ;)

samagee
06-18-2008, 01:47 PM
I disagree with the op, devs don't listen to them.

Beherit_Baphomar
06-18-2008, 01:59 PM
I disagree with the op, devs don't listen to them.

Excellent argument.

You should try out for the debate team.

samagee
06-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Excellent argument.

You should try out for the debate team.

Thank you! :D However, I don't have to because it is already well documented in the manuals of D&D.

Justicesar
06-18-2008, 02:15 PM
Thank you! :D However, I don't have to because it is already well documented in the manuals of D&D.

As are healing surges....blah blah blah....lets leave the books on the shelf.

Zaodon
06-18-2008, 02:24 PM
Thank you! :D However, I don't have to because it is already well documented in the manuals of D&D.

I will wager..... $50,000 that you're wrong.

Take the bet?

Twerpp
06-18-2008, 02:25 PM
I think if you nerf some potions you should nerf them all, or none at all...one way or the other because just half of them makes no sense. Why am I unable to open and drink a fear or curse pot but a cure serious works just fine? Are the magical contents of the bottle somehow more diffcult than another to drink?

Just ditch the madstone boots in that ONE particular quest and you will be fine. The +2 to str isnt worth not being able to be healed. If you are a barb though it doesnt make a difference you just need a good babysitt- errr I mean cleric. Try Firestorm Greaves or Boots of the Innocent, you will take less damage or possibly make your will save vs the curse and not even have to deal with the issue.

DelScorcho
06-18-2008, 02:32 PM
Yawn. Welcome to the downside of being a rage based melee character.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Yawn. Welcome to the downside of being a rage based melee character.

And the downside of being an AC character and using combat expertise. Or being a melee caster, and using Tensers.

It's not a downside, it's a stupid bug.

Blazer
06-18-2008, 03:17 PM
Yawn. Welcome to the downside of being a rage based melee character.

LOL thanks for actually thinking about your post for more than 0.01 seconds before hitting "Submit Reply". It affects more than just rage based melee characters as bobbryan2 demonstrated. It's a silly bug that - like many, many others - should have not ever made it live.

The_Phenx
06-18-2008, 04:36 PM
Just ditch the madstone boots in that ONE particular quest and you will be fine. The +2 to str isnt worth not being able to be healed. If you are a barb though it doesnt make a difference you just need a good babysitt- errr I mean cleric. Try Firestorm Greaves or Boots of the Innocent, you will take less damage or possibly make your will save vs the curse and not even have to deal with the issue.

Yes I can dump the madstone but thats not the point.

Madstone in full effect its +4 to str +4 to con with a stackable 20% mele alarity boost.

I have an rr halfling +5 resist cloak... and a 21 will save and I still get cursed.

While wearing firestorm greaves.

The potion change was a silly choice by the developers to help out...and all it did was cause harm.. thats the point of the post.

The_Phenx
06-18-2008, 04:39 PM
Yawn. Welcome to the downside of being a rage based melee character.

Funny I'm not a rage based toon.. I use it purely for the additional alacrity boost.

I still get cursed even with a silly will save.

I still can't drink remove curse pots without seriously negatively impacting my dps capabilities, because the dev's changed the way certian potions work.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 05:31 PM
The potion change was a silly choice by the developers to help out...and all it did was cause harm.. thats the point of the post.

It wasn't a silly choice, it was a dumb oversight and bug.

Seriously....

Saying that it was a deliberate choice only invites people into justifying a bug's existance. Just like if you were to say it was a stupid design decision for the devs to change heavy armor to ignore ASF (a current bug).

I'm sure you would find some people out there, where this change would fit into what their minds think is a logical flow. You can justify anything when you set out to do it. Just like people are setting out to justify this potion bug as a legitimate change.

Alavatar
06-18-2008, 05:53 PM
It wasn't a silly choice, it was a dumb oversight and bug.

Seriously....

Saying that it was a deliberate choice only invites people into justifying a bug's existance. Just like if you were to say it was a stupid design decision for the devs to change heavy armor to ignore ASF (a current bug).

I'm sure you would find some people out there, where this change would fit into what their minds think is a logical flow. You can justify anything when you set out to do it. Just like people are setting out to justify this potion bug as a legitimate change.

I think it was the Dev's choice. But, I think they were doing it for the same reason they added "funnels" to Remove Paralysis; so you don't have to trade the potions for others to use them. Instead, you can just use the potion directly on your poor buddy and not have to fumble around in your inventory.

The problem is that there is a bug that makes players unable to cure themselves of these same ailments with potions if they are Raging or Madstone Raged. This makes the players need to trade potions to someone who can use them on you if you are afflicted while raging, thus defeating the purpose.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 06:06 PM
I think it was the Dev's choice. But, I think they were doing it for the same reason they added "funnels" to Remove Paralysis; so you don't have to trade the potions for others to use them. Instead, you can just use the potion directly on your poor buddy and not have to fumble around in your inventory.

The problem is that there is a bug that makes players unable to cure themselves of these same ailments with potions if they are Raging or Madstone Raged. This makes the players need to trade potions to someone who can use them on you if you are afflicted while raging, thus defeating the purpose.

Making the potions use funnels was a bug.

Making them unable to use while in Tensers, Raged, or combat expertise is the bug I'm referring to.

Petro
06-18-2008, 06:28 PM
Just so you know Turbine my barbarian would EAT the bottle whole, glass and all, while raged...

heh...funny thats what I was thinking!

this is a stupid bug. Is it a bug or is it working as intended? Did anyone get a response from the team at Turbine about this? This has got to be the umpteenth thread I've seen on this.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 08:02 PM
heh...funny thats what I was thinking!

this is a stupid bug. Is it a bug or is it working as intended? Did anyone get a response from the team at Turbine about this? This has got to be the umpteenth thread I've seen on this.

Turbine's official policy on things that 'could' be a bug is to ignore it and hope it goes away.

Dexxaan
06-18-2008, 08:27 PM
Well it had to happen...again.

Yet another Please give my Raging Barbarian Self Sufficiency Thread.

You guys win....I quit..I don`t have what it takes to continue explaining the reasons behind the Bug or No Bug, Nerf or Not Nerf.

I`m just glad the DEV`s will continue to ignore such whining.


And if the DEV`S ake pity on you...and grant Barbarians their "Yellow Batman Utility Belts of Solve everything" then congrats you`ve earned it by the sweat of your keyboard wielding fingers.

Kris_P._Letus
06-18-2008, 08:39 PM
Well it had to happen...again.

Yet another Please give my Raging Barbarian Self Sufficiency Thread.

You guys win....I quit..I don`t have what it takes to continue explaining the reasons behind the Bug or No Bug, Nerf or Not Nerf.

I`m just glad the DEV`s will continue to ignore such whining.


And if the DEV`S ake pity on you...and grant Barbarians their "Yellow Batman Utility Belts of Solve everything" then congrats you`ve earned it by the sweat of your keyboard wielding fingers.

lmao

Alavatar
06-18-2008, 09:15 PM
Well it had to happen...again.

Yet another Please give my Raging Barbarian Self Sufficiency Thread.

You guys win....I quit..I don`t have what it takes to continue explaining the reasons behind the Bug or No Bug, Nerf or Not Nerf.

I`m just glad the DEV`s will continue to ignore such whining.


And if the DEV`S ake pity on you...and grant Barbarians their "Yellow Batman Utility Belts of Solve everything" then congrats you`ve earned it by the sweat of your keyboard wielding fingers.

Wow. Why the hate? Per the SRD rules, barbarians should be able to drink potions while raged.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 09:40 PM
Well it had to happen...again.

Yet another Please give my Raging Barbarian Self Sufficiency Thread.

You guys win....I quit..I don`t have what it takes to continue explaining the reasons behind the Bug or No Bug, Nerf or Not Nerf.

I`m just glad the DEV`s will continue to ignore such whining.


And if the DEV`S ake pity on you...and grant Barbarians their "Yellow Batman Utility Belts of Solve everything" then congrats you`ve earned it by the sweat of your keyboard wielding fingers.

You keep talking about barbarians and completely ignoring combat expertise and tensor's transformation. That kinda tunnel vision is impressive. The devs will 'take pity' on us by fixing the bug. It's just annoying that it happened at all.

Dexxaan
06-18-2008, 10:08 PM
You keep talking about barbarians and completely ignoring combat expertise and tensor's transformation. That kinda tunnel vision is impressive. The devs will 'take pity' on us by fixing the bug. It's just annoying that it happened at all.

RE: Tensers - I have no real opinion on, since I have never used nor intend to. So I`ll let someone with more criteria on the matter support or undermine current game conditions.

RE: CE - IMO if you take the time and distract yourself from Melee to chug a pot, in game terms "hit the Hot-Bar`d CE (although annoying) I see it as having to reset your mindset into a lessened attack stance but maximizing your defensive ability (Combat Expertise).... So it`s ok by me. No Tunnelvision here.

What I do find extremely annoying is that sometimes different timers don`t allow you to re-take CE after chugging a Pot, or using an X or Y Boost. (Now THATS a BUG if I`ve ever seen one)

Dexxaan
06-18-2008, 10:13 PM
Wow. Why the hate? Per the SRD rules, barbarians should be able to drink potions while raged.


No hate, just some consequences of dealing with this issue a bit too much.

Many threads ago we`ve already determined (Participants both in favor and against changing current game conditions) that rules are pretty much good and necessary, BUT some are just assanine and make no sense for any reason...well actually for silly reasons.

Therefore, IMO your reference just qualified as one of these, and BTW I`ve read posts that include 6+ Rule quotes that counter that one....

Anyway GL Funnelfaces :eek:

Alavatar
06-18-2008, 10:28 PM
No hate, just some consequences of dealing with this issue a bit too much.

Many threads ago we`ve already determined (Participants both in favor and against changing current game conditions) that rules are pretty much good and necessary, BUT some are just assanine and make no sense for any reason...well actually for silly reasons.

Therefore, IMO your reference just qualified as one of these, and BTW I`ve read posts that include 6+ Rule quotes that counter that one....

Anyway GL Funnelfaces :eek:

All rules point to potions being useable while raging. The description of the Rage ability does not say potions are unusable and the description of potions does not say potions are unusable. Those are the only two rules necessary.

Potions should be usable while Tensers Transformation is in effect. All that spell does is turn the caster into a Fighter, essentially.

Per the SRD, CE should only be in effect when the attack action or the full attack action in melee is selected. Therefore, I concur that potions should turn off CE.

Beherit_Baphomar
06-18-2008, 10:33 PM
RE: Tensers - I have no real opinion on, since I have never used nor intend to. So I`ll let someone with more criteria on the matter support or undermine current game conditions.

It makes ZERO difference if you have or have not used Tensers. And it makes zero difference if yer ever intending on using it.

Weak.

Someone comes along and shoots down yer trolling thread and this is what you come back with? "I dont use Tensers so I cant comment on that"??

Very weak.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Per the SRD, CE should only be in effect when the attack action or the full attack action in melee is selected. Therefore, I concur that potions should turn off CE.

CE works differently in DDO than in D&D. Saying that CE should only be in effect when an attack action is selected is ignoring the DDO implementation of the ability. In the DDO implementation, CE is simply a stance that doesn't work while casting spells.

Notice... turn on CE, now drink a pot. Notice how long it is before you can put CE back up again. Using a pot should not turn CE off here.

bobbryan2
06-18-2008, 11:56 PM
RE: Tensers - I have no real opinion on, since I have never used nor intend to. So I`ll let someone with more criteria on the matter support or undermine current game conditions.

RE: CE - IMO if you take the time and distract yourself from Melee to chug a pot, in game terms "hit the Hot-Bar`d CE (although annoying) I see it as having to reset your mindset into a lessened attack stance but maximizing your defensive ability (Combat Expertise).... So it`s ok by me. No Tunnelvision here.

What I do find extremely annoying is that sometimes different timers don`t allow you to re-take CE after chugging a Pot, or using an X or Y Boost. (Now THATS a BUG if I`ve ever seen one)

Please...

you come in here calling people whining funnel faces and your best actual response is -- oh.. well, I don't use that particular ability.

Pfft. You don't need to actually use Tenser's to know how it's supposed to work.

And regarding your 'CE BUG':

That's actually not what we call a bug. That's what we call a design implementation. Since DDO can't actually have fighters call whether they're going to be taking a penalty for their next attack in order to receive a bonus to AC on their next turn... we have things called "stances".

These "stances" have cooldowns in order to keep people from abusing the ability to turn them on directly after casting a spell, and maintaining a higher AC while spellcasting.

Those aren't bugs. The bug is that potions are cancelling CE like spellcasting, and causing a cooldown that was never intended by the design. You could make the case that CE shouldn't be up for 6 seconds after drinking the pot (which you have), but you obviously can't make the case that CE shoudln't be up for 2 minutes after drinking a pot.

The bug isn't that CE has an extended downtime... that's a design implementation designed to keep spellcasters from abusing the stance. The bug is that potions are being treated as CASTING A SPELL.

Therein lies the problem with everything else.

Your arguments are ignoring the realities of the situation.

Alavatar
06-19-2008, 12:07 AM
CE works differently in DDO than in D&D. Saying that CE should only be in effect when an attack action is selected is ignoring the DDO implementation of the ability. In the DDO implementation, CE is simply a stance that doesn't work while casting spells.

Notice... turn on CE, now drink a pot. Notice how long it is before you can put CE back up again. Using a pot should not turn CE off here.

Granted. Perhaps my wording wasn't appropriate. I think it would be better to say that drinking potions should inhibit CE. i.e. You should not be getting the AC benefit from CE while drinking a potion.

Talcyndl
06-19-2008, 07:52 AM
The potion change was a silly choice by the developers to help out...and all it did was cause harm.

This is the thing that really bugs :) me.

They announced the change as an addition to the game: You can now help your party members!!

And they knew (from the lesser restore/rage bug) that the funnels were bugged.

BUT THEY DID IT ANYWAY!?!?!?!?

If they had simply announced they intended it to be a limitation to potions, fine. But they have simply ignored the issue completely.

Bad.

Kraak
06-19-2008, 09:00 AM
/signed

Razvan
06-19-2008, 09:12 AM
It wasn't a silly choice, it was a dumb oversight and bug.

Seriously....

Saying that it was a deliberate choice only invites people into justifying a bug's existance. Just like if you were to say it was a stupid design decision for the devs to change heavy armor to ignore ASF (a current bug).

I'm sure you would find some people out there, where this change would fit into what their minds think is a logical flow. You can justify anything when you set out to do it. Just like people are setting out to justify this potion bug as a legitimate change.


I am sorry, I really don't know a lot about this "bug"...but can you give me a link to a devs post saying it is a bug?

Thank you in advance!

Issip
06-19-2008, 09:35 AM
/signed


Thank you! :D However, I don't have to because it is already well documented in the manuals of D&D.

Really? It's documented that you can drink haste pots but can't drink remove fear pots when you're feared? It's documented that you can drink cure pots but can't drink lesser restore pots when you're raged?

I prefer pots the way they were no funnels, no restrictions, the code already exists so the update would take nothing. Alternately I would accept no funnels and no potions at all when feared or raged. I realy hate funnels, I think it's completely stupid regardless of where there may be precedence for it, but if we absolutely have to have the stupid funnels then make all potions that way.

Having to generate a matrix of which potions you can consume under different conditions which changes with every patch is not acceptable to me, it detracts from the game and makes no sense.

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 09:39 AM
I am sorry, I really don't know a lot about this "bug"...but can you give me a link to a devs post saying it is a bug?

Thank you in advance!

Why sure. This has got everything you need to arrive at the same conclusion.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1585982&postcount=1

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 09:41 AM
Having to generate a matrix of which potions you can consume under different conditions which changes with every patch is not acceptable to me, it detracts from the game and makes no sense.

Actually... the problem is that they didn't generate a matrix of any kind. They just converted a bunch of potions over to the clickie mechanic, and didn't actually test anything afterwards.

Razvan
06-19-2008, 09:59 AM
Why sure. This has got everything you need to arrive at the same conclusion.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1585982&postcount=1


No, no, no, my friend...I don't want to come to a "conclusion"...because that's what a lot of people came to and they seem to know this is a bug, yet the developers do not say that.

Where is the logic? They admit that casting firewall or fogs on previously not spawned mosnters prevents them from spawning and they don't admit the whole potion thing is a bug?...


I am sorry, I failed to see from your link where it was stated by the devs that these were indeed bugs that they are working on...logical conlcusion? they work as intended, they are not bugs! (until a developer admits they are)

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 10:02 AM
No, no, no, my friend...I don't want to come to a "conclusion"...because that's what a lot of people came to and they seem to know this is a bug, yet the developers do not say that.

Where is the logic? They admit that casting firewall or fogs on previously not spawned mosnters prevents them from spawning and they don't admit the whole potion thing is a bug?...


I am sorry, I failed to see from your link where it was stated by the devs that these were indeed bugs that they are working on...logical conlcusion? they work as intended, they are not bugs! (until a developer admits they are)

They didn't admit firewall was a bug for over a year, until moments before they fixed it.

Turbine doesn't admit things are bugs as a general rule. That's the logic for you.

The_Phenx
06-19-2008, 10:07 AM
Well it had to happen...again.

Yet another Please give my Raging Barbarian Self Sufficiency Thread.

You guys win....I quit..I don`t have what it takes to continue explaining the reasons behind the Bug or No Bug, Nerf or Not Nerf.

I`m just glad the DEV`s will continue to ignore such whining.


And if the DEV`S ake pity on you...and grant Barbarians their "Yellow Batman Utility Belts of Solve everything" then congrats you`ve earned it by the sweat of your keyboard wielding fingers.

Im a fighter not a barb.

I am self sufficient.

I like to use madstone rage when I have a good cleric backing me for the additional dps.

In the new raid I can no longer do so.

Proserpine
06-19-2008, 10:22 AM
...make them work both ways...clickie on others potion on self.

is the BEST thing I have heard in awhile concerning fixes.

Deragoth
06-19-2008, 10:27 AM
I agree. This bug needs to be fixed.

bobbryan2
06-19-2008, 11:56 AM
I am sorry, I failed to see from your link where it was stated by the devs that these were indeed bugs that they are working on...logical conlcusion? they work as intended, they are not bugs! (until a developer admits they are)

Ok... right. And no ASF in heavy armor is working as intended too, right? Not a bug until admitted?

darkrhavyn
06-19-2008, 08:34 PM
The problem is with the way lesser restore was coded when it was made so that it could be used on others---i.e. the potions became coded as "spells" rather than potions. If you watch, when someone drinks a lesser restore potion, they make the same animation that a cleric/paladin etc does when he/she casts the spell.

I remember at some point months ago a dev talking about this fact...cant remember now who it was..but they said it had to do with the change in coding to allow the "funnel" on those potions.

I always assumed that since they already had the code for the spell they took a short cut and tied that to the potion bottle as well as the actual spell ---rather than writing a new code for funnel use which wouldnt read as a cast spell.

When you look at it that way ---the devs gave the potion bottles the ability to "cast" the spell - either on self or others. Since you cant "cast" when under Madstone rage or tensers or in CE, the game, which now sees the potion as a cast spell, wont let you do it. So its not really a "bug" per se, but a side effect of the change in the potions.