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View Full Version : Para weaps still not working correctly.



samagee
06-17-2008, 01:09 PM
The para weapons are still not working like when you hold person or stone to flesh someone, and get crits and sneak attacks.

Harncw
06-17-2008, 01:11 PM
they nerfed the auto crit off of paralyzing ages ago.... like a year ago

Angelus_dead
06-17-2008, 01:11 PM
The para weapons are still not working like when you hold person or stone to flesh someone, and get crits and sneak attacks.
They are working correctly.

The only bug is that the description is insufficiently precise, and doesn't tell you that victims are dazed if they fail a saving throw.

Recovery
06-17-2008, 01:12 PM
This has been brought up more times that i can remember. :)

Para Weapons do not give auto crits, and from what I know they never will.

samagee
06-17-2008, 01:13 PM
OK, OK. Another non D&D rule for D&D. Got it.

KoboldKiller
06-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Actually the only problem I see with them currently is MOBs still moving or Rangers still firing while paralized, this should be fixed.

silverraven
06-17-2008, 01:16 PM
While they may not give auto-crit, I've noticed that since the new mod they don't work quite as well.

samagee
06-17-2008, 01:17 PM
Actually the only problem I see with them currently is MOBs still moving or Rangers still firing while paralized, this should be fixed.

Yea, the same thing for trip. When my fighter trips something he still has to chase it across the room at times. I really don't see this being fixed.

BurnerD
06-17-2008, 01:23 PM
A question... Are Orthons supposed to be able to continue to use their ranged atatck while paralyzed? I've noticed this a bunch of times in the Vale...

silverraven
06-17-2008, 01:26 PM
A question... Are Orthons supposed to be able to continue to use their ranged atatck while paralyzed? I've noticed this a bunch of times in the Vale...

or the devils teleporting? hehe

BurnerD
06-17-2008, 01:27 PM
or the devils teleporting? hehe

Yup :) that too

samagee
06-17-2008, 01:27 PM
A question... Are Orthons supposed to be able to continue to use their ranged atatck while paralyzed? I've noticed this a bunch of times in the Vale...

No. The same thing happens when I use stone to flesh on them. Some times they don't. Some times they do. So I get my xbow of banish out and pop em with that.

Missing_Minds
06-17-2008, 01:30 PM
Actually the only problem I see with them currently is MOBs still moving or Rangers still firing while paralized, this should be fixed.

paralyzed, held, flesh to stone... all of it. Mobs can remain active.

Missing_Minds
06-17-2008, 01:33 PM
or the devils teleporting? hehe

Actually... that one is kind of debatable.

You see, their teleportation ability is an "at will" ability. They think it, they can jump. They can be forced to dance, be paralyzed, or even held, they are still capably of thought, so therefore, the teleport should still continue to function per PnP rules.

However, flesh to stone, they really should be stuck and not bouncing around as.. how do you "think" while your entire being is converted to stone?

WeaselKing
06-17-2008, 01:40 PM
or the devils teleporting? hehe

Devils teleporting while immobilized is working as intended as it is a purely mental ability.

Angelus_dead
06-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Devils teleporting while immobilized is working as intended as it is a purely mental ability.
The victim of a spell such as Hold Monster or Flesh to Stone cannot perform any action, even if it is purely mental. (Flesh to Stone additionally makes you immune to mental attacks)

rimble
06-17-2008, 02:15 PM
The victim of a spell such as Hold Monster or Flesh to Stone cannot perform any action, even if it is purely mental. (Flesh to Stone additionally makes you immune to mental attacks)

You can take mental actions while under a Hold spell, i.e. 'paralyzed'. Flesh to Stone clearly states it turns you into a 'mindless, inert statue'.

Angelus_dead
06-17-2008, 02:16 PM
You can take mental actions while under a Hold spell, i.e. 'paralyzed'.
What part of "cannot take any actions" makes you think it can take an action?

For reference, the D&D rules for Hold Person are pasted here:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.

rimble
06-17-2008, 02:19 PM
What part of "cannot take any actions" makes you think it can take an action?

The 'paralyzed' status allows for mental actions, I don't feel the 'cannot take any actions' overrides that stipulation. The spell just applies the 'paralyzed' condition to you.

Missing_Minds
06-17-2008, 02:19 PM
The victim of a spell such as Hold Monster or Flesh to Stone cannot perform any action, even if it is purely mental. (Flesh to Stone additionally makes you immune to mental attacks)

Wrong.

Hold Monster acts as Hold Person as far as functionality and states...

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Paralyzed states...

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.


So you are left with the argument of, can it or can't it. DDO apparently house ruled, it can teleport, but it does not break free of the effect of being held. I do agree with your flesh to stone assessment.

Angelus_dead
06-17-2008, 02:21 PM
The 'paralyzed' status allows for mental actions, I don't feel the 'cannot take any actions' overrides that stipulation.
Then you're not using the D&D rules. That's fine, you can invent your own rules if you want- but you shouldn't go around trying to tell people what the D&D rules actually are.

rimble
06-17-2008, 02:23 PM
Then you're not using the D&D rules. That's fine, you can invent your own rules if you want- but you shouldn't go around trying to tell people what the D&D rules actually are.

You're pretty amazing, but I'm sure you already knew that.



The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)



A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Riddikulus
06-17-2008, 03:54 PM
You're pretty amazing, but I'm sure you already knew that.
Actually I agree with Angelus_dead... the spell text "can't take any action" modifies what the paralyze state is.

Otherwise it would be meaningless to say "X is _paralyzed_ for 5 rounds"... you are again modifying the "paralyzed" state to only last 5 rounds.

Casting a TP mentally is still an "action" as defined by PnP rules... probably a free action, but it is still an action.

Issip
06-17-2008, 04:15 PM
The para weapons are still not working like when you hold person or stone to flesh someone, and get crits and sneak attacks.

We also can't play in god mode. If paralyzers auto-critted I'd have quit a long time ago from boredom.

dameron
06-17-2008, 05:22 PM
Actually I agree with Angelus_dead... the spell text "can't take any action" modifies what the paralyze state is.

Otherwise it would be meaningless to say "X is _paralyzed_ for 5 rounds"... you are again modifying the "paralyzed" state to only last 5 rounds.

Casting a TP mentally is still an "action" as defined by PnP rules... probably a free action, but it is still an action.

You might have a point if the definition of Paralyzed and Paralysis in the DDO glossary weren't so precise:



paralysis

This special attack (extraordinary or supernatural) renders the victim immobile. Paralyzed creatures cannot move, speak, or take any physical actions. The creature is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless.

The glossary doesn't say "any action" but "any physical action".

And



paralyzed

Frozen in place and unable to move or act, such as by the hold person spell. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.



That, plus the "Rules of the Game" archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a):



* A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. Using a spell-like ability is a purely mental action...


leaves no room for doubt. What kind of actions can you use while paralyzed? "Purely mental actions."

A spell like ability is a "purely mental action".

Riddikulus
06-17-2008, 08:32 PM
You might have a point if the definition of Paralyzed and Paralysis in the DDO glossary weren't so precise:

Yes there is no question that a creature that is only "paralyzed" can exercise mental actions.

But we are talking about a mob under the effect of "Hold Person". That effect includes being "paralyzed" as well as "cannot take any actions".

There is a similar debate over on the Wizards forum: http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-911565.html.



And

paralyzed

Frozen in place and unable to move or act, such as by the hold person spell. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Could you link the above statement? I can't find it.

Anyway, I think the following might make things more clear:



Does the freedom of movement spell protect a character from being stunned? The argument is that "stun" is a condition that hinders movement.

Freedom of movement is one of those tricky spells that has a lot of open-ended wording that might lead to confusion. The spell becomes much more manageable if you just look at it as something that ignores any physical impediment to movement or actions. f you assign this restriction, then it makes sense that freedom of movement works against solid fog, slow, and web; each of these spells puts something in the way of the creature that stops them from moving/acting, or specifically targets the creature’s physical movement.

With this interpretation, spells and effects such as hold person that apply a mental impediment to taking any action would not be bypassed by freedom of movement. These are mental effects, and freedom of movement only helps you bypass physical effects (such as solid fog) or effects that specifically impede just your movement, not spells that stop you from taking any action, as hold person does.