PDA

View Full Version : Improving Smite Evil... and Trip and the like



Borror0
06-15-2008, 01:23 PM
Lately, I have been in PuGs a little bit more and crossed a few paladins.

The topic of Smite Evil came up multiple times. I listen with closely as that's obviously a topic I'm curious about. Most paladins where glad of the Exalted Smite change... when it landed. I kept hearing on and on how much they liked the enhancements, but found they weren't so much worth it because most of them couldn't land their smites. Also, when I questioned them about the regen, their answer was usually "Too slow, could be much faster like once every minute or something like that."

With that in mind, I have two suggestions:


The first one is tie the regen rate to Extra Smite. After all, it reduces the cooldown, why not make it reduce the regen rate at the same time. I'd suggest something around 7.5 to 10 seconds less per rank. Right now, these enhancements are far from worth what they cost. That would make Extra Smite more appealing by itself, and Exalted Smite also more attracting, at the same time.


The second one doesn't only affect Smite Evil but anything that is a "press to trigger a swing".

Instead of pressing an hotkey/icon on our hotbar to trigger that ability, why not make it bestow the ability to our next swing. Like that, it will be no more needed to stop swing to land a Smite Evil. Just make it like a buff. You press and it appears at the top of your buff bar, and your next swing will be a Trip, or a Smite Evil. Obviously, it might need a little bit of tweaking in the case of two-weapon fighting, to make sure they still get their double saves, but overall it'd make Smite Evil more accessible to most of DDO players.

So, what do you guys think?

jhorn02
06-15-2008, 01:46 PM
Re: your second suggestion:

Considering the game's fast pace and its original claim (I think) to not be as heavily twitch based as other games on the market (<cough> WoW), I really wish that Smite evil lasted the length of one attach chain or for a set number of seconds (perhaps 2 seconds plus 1/2 sec per level). Obviously, its bonuses would need to be reduced accordingly, since Paladins would now get multiple swings with the bonuses. This would give a good chance of at least one swing hitting at low levels and give Paladins truly spectacular short-burst attacks at end game.

Samadhi
06-15-2008, 01:55 PM
Let smite effect bows - how else can my silver flame longbow pali make use of his favored weapon??

Borror0
06-15-2008, 02:09 PM
Let smite effect bows - how else can my silver flame longbow pali make use of his favored weapon??

There is a feat in D&D that allows to do that, can't remember the book though.

So, for it to work it's very likely they'd make an enhancement out of it.

Borror0
06-15-2008, 02:13 PM
I really wish that Smite evil lasted the length of one attach chain or for a set number of seconds (perhaps 2 seconds plus 1/2 sec per level).

I thnk that the Developers want to keep it closest to PnP and realsie how hard it will be hard to balance right.

Remember it gotta scale with levels...

EightyFour
06-15-2008, 02:31 PM
I would say this game is much more twitch based than WoW or other games I have played. Like Trip, Stuning Blow, Sunder, Smite Evil all are twitch base moves. You have to time them with the mob, and half the time, right as you activate it, the mob takes a step or two to the left, right, or backwards with there chaotic AI and you end up missing all together. I'm not saying there not useful, I use them on a regular bases, however in a game like WoW, you don't have to make sure of your position, the mob's position, mob's AI, and timing, you just have to click the mob to attack, and than hit the power you want when you want to use it, there is no mob running away from you a ruining your special attack.

Inspire
06-15-2008, 02:40 PM
I Like My ES, I Agree In The Zerg Zerg Zerg(How I Personally Play) I Would Like A Faster Regen.

However Unless They Pose An Imediate Threat To The Party I Dont Usually Use ES On Trash Mobs, I Spend Them All On The Boss Mob, And By The Time The Next Boss Mob Comes Around Im Back To 8 ES.

DS Is Better For Trash Mobs Who Cant Hit My Paladin Anyways, 10Hps And 1Sp Is Awesome As I Can Get 24 DS In Before I Use One Of My 4 LOH.

They Could Be Improved I Agree, But Its All In The Way You Play.

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 02:42 PM
I Like My ES, I Agree In The Zerg Zerg Zerg(How I Personally Play) I Would Like A Faster Regen.

However Unless They Pose An Imediate Threat To The Party I Dont Usually Use ES On Trash Mobs, I Spend Them All On The Boss Mob, And By The Time The Next Boss Mob Comes Around Im Back To 8 ES.

DS Is Better For Trash Mobs Who Cant Hit My Paladin Anyways, 10Hps And 1Sp Is Awesome As I Can Get 24 DS In Before I Use One Of My 4 LOH.

They Could Be Improved I Agree, But Its All In The Way You Play.
QFT. Another pally complaint thread... and another person who can actually manage to play this class steps forward.

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 02:43 PM
I Like My ES, I Agree In The Zerg Zerg Zerg(How I Personally Play) I Would Like A Faster Regen.

However Unless They Pose An Imediate Threat To The Party I Dont Usually Use ES On Trash Mobs, I Spend Them All On The Boss Mob, And By The Time The Next Boss Mob Comes Around Im Back To 8 ES.

DS Is Better For Trash Mobs Who Cant Hit My Paladin Anyways, 10Hps And 1Sp Is Awesome As I Can Get 24 DS In Before I Use One Of My 4 LOH.

They Could Be Improved I Agree, But Its All In The Way You Play.
I drop maybe 1/20 ES or DS, and I am playing from singapore at 320 ms latency.....

KristovK
06-15-2008, 02:51 PM
I don't see the need to shorten the timer on Smite reset, as the previous poster said, I use it on bosses, not trash mobs, so it's not something I really have a problem with.

As for the 2nd suggestion...uh...no. That's asking for the same combat as in PnP, where you can set up your actions in advance. DDO isn't like that, it's a real time combat game, so you don't get to cue up actions/spells and just wait for them to go off, you have to time them into your actions as you go. Myself, no issues with getting my Smites on the 4th attack, just click, click, click, hotkey...simple as that. If the mob moves, it moves, so be it, but it's a not exactly a common problem for me when dealing with bosses, so...

Ralmeth
06-15-2008, 03:47 PM
Lately, I have been in PuGs a little bit more and crossed a few paladins.

The topic of Smite Evil came up multiple times. I listen with closely as that's obviously a topic I'm curious about. Most paladins where glad of the Exalted Smite change... when it landed. I kept hearing on and on how much they liked the enhancements, but found they weren't so much worth it because most of them couldn't land their smites. Also, when I questioned them about the regen, their answer was usually "Too slow, could be much faster like once every minute or something like that."

With that in mind, I have two suggestions:


The first one is tie the regen rate to Extra Smite. After all, it reduces the cooldown, why not make it reduce the regen rate at the same time. I'd suggest something around 7.5 to 10 seconds less per rank. Right now, these enhancements are far from worth what they cost. That would make Extra Smite more appealing by itself, and Exalted Smite also more attracting, at the same time.


The second one doesn't only affect Smite Evil but anything that is a "press to trigger a swing".

Instead of pressing an hotkey/icon on our hotbar to trigger that ability, why not make it bestow the ability to our next swing. Like that, it will be no more needed to stop swing to land a Smite Evil. Just make it like a buff. You press and it appears at the top of your buff bar, and your next swing will be a Trip, or a Smite Evil. Obviously, it might need a little bit of tweaking in the case of two-weapon fighting, to make sure they still get their double saves, but overall it'd make Smite Evil more accessible to most of DDO players.

So, what do you guys think?

Excellent ideas! My specific comments:
1) I like it! You would be able to use smites a little more often. You wouldn't be able to use them on every trash monster, but a faster regen would allow us to be more noticeably a "smiter of evil"! What would be especially cool (though not necessary) would be a cool animation too that shows you using your smite!

2) This would be great! Perhaps I haven't fully figured out the new auto attack button, by holding it down. I love that you can do this now...It's much easier on you rather than having to keep clicking to attack. However, I'll be holding down the attack button, press my "smite" hotkey, and a few seconds later realize that smite did not fire. It makes so much sense to allow us to hold down the autoattack button, and then when we want to fire off a smite to press the hotkey and have the next swing be the smite. That just...makes sense and is how I want to keep using smite (which is why I keep realizing that at the end of boss fights I realize I still have 3 unused smites:( So I'm starting to learn that you can't be holding down the attack button to use your smite :(

Lithic
06-15-2008, 03:58 PM
Not having a paladin (well, 3 levels on a rogue doesnt count, right?), I don't have too much of an opinion either way. For #2 though, I think its a click-swing to prevent things like hitting smite and making your next swing a stunning blow, or a rogue death attack (not that they work yet), or any other special abilities that are on hit.

Borror0
06-15-2008, 04:00 PM
For #2 though, I think its a click-swing to prevent things like hitting smite and making your next swing a stunning blow, or a rogue death attack (not that they work yet), or any other special abilities that are on hit.

What do you mean?

Kargon
06-15-2008, 04:03 PM
What do you mean?

Kargon think the point are to prevent usaming a smite for a 2 secomond timermer to use the increased tohit to make othermer attacks like a stunnaming blow land more oftamen, they suppomosed to be on sepermerate attacks.

personamally, kargon not really care eithermer way, they work fine for kargon as click-swing abilimaties, but kargon miss somematimes too. *shrug*

jhorn02
06-16-2008, 08:57 AM
So I thought about this over the weekend:

What if the effect occurred on your next swing that generated a to-hit roll? That way, if you trigger the Smite or Trip effect just as the mob has moved away...the effect would occur on the next swing that does generates a roll. You could even prime your effect before a fight. I can even imagine a Paladin raising his sword into the air and calling upon his Gods to grant him the power to smite and then rushing into combat with a powerful first swing!

I don't imagine that any of the other click-effect abilities would become overpowered with this change either.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 08:59 AM
What if the effect occurred on your next swing that generated a to-hit roll? That way, if you trigger the Smite or Trip effect just as the mob has moved away...the effect would occur on the next swing that does generates a roll.

The point is not to make it much easier to land a smite, but to make it so you don't have to press the same key over and over again until the game decides to register it.

Ralmeth
06-16-2008, 09:06 AM
The point is not to make it much easier to land a smite, but to make it so you don't have to press the same key over and over again until the game decides to register it.

Yes, exactly! It's very annoying.

Yaga_Nub
06-16-2008, 09:10 AM
The point is not to make it much easier to land a smite, but to make it so you don't have to press the same key over and over again until the game decides to register it.

How much of this is server side/client side lag problems? At a certain point, because it's a real-time game played over the public internet, you can't ensure that the special attacks will go off when you want them to do so.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 09:13 AM
How much of this is server side/client side lag problems? At a certain point, because it's a real-time game played over the public internet, you can't ensure that the special attacks will go off when you want them to do so.

I can think of many, many abilties that goes off really well.

Yaga_Nub
06-16-2008, 09:24 AM
I can think of many, many abilties that goes off really well.

And since Mod 6 (maybe before) I can name many spells and attacks that don't register at all at least 10% to 15% of the time if not more. It SEEMS (no hard evidence) that my Heal spells don't actually get cast at least 20% of the time. :(

Borror0
06-16-2008, 09:29 AM
And since Mod 6 (maybe before) I can name many spells and attacks that don't register at all at least 10% to 15% of the time if not more.

Yes, but that's new! Smite Evil has always been buggy, ask Eladrin:



That delay annoys me to no end too, I'm looking into why it's misbehaving but can't promise anything with that one at this time. It's on my bug list.

gpk
06-16-2008, 10:12 AM
It's no secret there are problems with the way DDO handles special attacks despite some not noticing them.

Add to this more special attacks with a high cost to self, HP, limtied usage etc. and add these to the class in most need of a boost and you have a recipe for blech.

When DDO attempts to do more FPS-like things it doesn't work out well and it has nothing to do with the players.

As I've said before, special attacks need a "pay on attack roll" mechanism; no attack roll=no wasted special attack ( you can have a 1 second cooldown to prevent spam).
This is less of a problem with trips,stuns,sunders of course, but with DS and ES and future similar costly special attacks there is simply no good reason to allow the attack to count if there is no vailid attack roll.

Jondallar
06-16-2008, 10:53 AM
I drop maybe 1/20 ES or DS, and I am playing from singapore at 320 ms latency.....


1/20 eh.

And yet u manage to hit Velah 100% of the time with your bow... interesting:D maybe your arrows and Velah are KaTet...irresistably drawn together

Jondallar
06-16-2008, 11:00 AM
And since Mod 6 (maybe before) I can name many spells and attacks that don't register at all at least 10% to 15% of the time if not more. It SEEMS (no hard evidence) that my Heal spells don't actually get cast at least 20% of the time. :(


Lies... I have never seen you heal... or do u mean that when u are asking for heals 20% of the time u dont get them...cause I will believe that.:D


I find that the auto attack and hold down to attack options cause many miss fires/non casts unless you time it properly in the attack sequence (IE between swings rather than mid swing).

Accelerando
06-16-2008, 11:01 AM
1/20 eh.

And yet u manage to hit Velah 100% of the time with your bow... interesting:D maybe your arrows and Velah are KaTet...irresistably drawn together
lol I don't like you you are no long my favorite halfling pally.

jhorn02
06-16-2008, 11:44 AM
It's no secret there are problems with the way DDO handles special attacks despite some not noticing them.

Add to this more special attacks with a high cost to self, HP, limtied usage etc. and add these to the class in most need of a boost and you have a recipe for blech.

When DDO attempts to do more FPS-like things it doesn't work out well and it has nothing to do with the players.

As I've said before, special attacks need a "pay on attack roll" mechanism; no attack roll=no wasted special attack ( you can have a 1 second cooldown to prevent spam).
This is less of a problem with trips,stuns,sunders of course, but with DS and ES and future similar costly special attacks there is simply no good reason to allow the attack to count if there is no vailid attack roll.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make, though this is better articulated. "Pay on attack roll" only seems fair. How many Paladins in PNP would use a smite evil (same argument for Trip, Stunning Blow, etc.) if they weren't actually swinging at something (i.e. generating an attack roll). They might miss the target, but I can't imagine how using a smite evil could make sense for just swinging your sword through the air.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 11:59 AM
"Pay on attack roll" only seems fair. How many Paladins in PNP would use a smite evil (same argument for Trip, Stunning Blow, etc.) if they weren't actually swinging at something (i.e. generating an attack roll).

Not so much, do you swing your sword even though the mob could move?

Yaga_Nub
06-16-2008, 12:08 PM
Lies... I have never seen you heal... or do u mean that when u are asking for heals 20% of the time u dont get them...cause I will believe that.:D

While it is true that I rarely heal, I am a bit miffed that my efforts, when I do try to heal, aren't happening and others are getting credit for my attempts at healing.

Actually I never get healed when I asked and that's why it's Heal scrolls and UMD FTW!