PDA

View Full Version : Are paladins overpowered?!



Pages : [1] 2

Borror0
06-12-2008, 05:25 PM
I say yes!!

They got high AC!!!
They got high saves!!
They got Lay on Hands
They can land the highest criticals!!!:eek:
They got Resist Energy!!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

KoboldKiller
06-12-2008, 05:33 PM
I have had a Human Khopesh and Elven longsword Paladin. I liked playing both and I don't feel they were either gimped or overpowered. They fill a roll nicely as either a second tank (although I main tanked several times) buffer and second healer. I will not tell people how to play or make their characters but I still don't understand the stance that a pure Pali is gimped. Mine were and are pure and are not gimped.

*Edit

Sorry hit wrong button before I finished. Yes Palis do need some love, spell selection is weak and although a minor change has been made to smite they still don't feel like the defender of good and right that they should be. Pali auras need a little tweaking as well. In all honesty especially with devils now the Paladin should stand out as the ultimate power within the new raids.

*Edit 2

Look I know my post is a little non-specific I have a huge headache and probably should not have posted. I have a special affinity for Paladins as they are the only class I really played in PnP. Yes they need more love for sure. I do not possess the DDO Paladin knowledge that alot of you have to site specific reasons, I did the best I could. The Paladin should not be a second tier fighter IMHO and something should be done to make them more in line with front line fighters. Whether through enhancements or feats. I know this is not PnP but when I played Paladins were never second class fighters.

Borror0
06-12-2008, 05:35 PM
I will not tell people how to play or make their characters but I still don't understand the stance that a pure Pali is gimped. Mine were and are pure and are not gimped.

/sigh



We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Alcides
06-12-2008, 05:41 PM
Borr0r, don't forget.

Turn Undead
High Concentration Skill
Raise UnDead Ability
Dee Pee Ess!

Twerpp
06-12-2008, 05:42 PM
I say yes!!

They got high AC!!!
They got high saves!!
They got Lay on Hands
They can land the highest criticals!!!:eek:
They got Resist Energy!!!:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying their are gimp, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

I do think Paladins are fine.... and really Borr I want to see every class get "love" anyway. I'd love to see some Divine Champion stuff for Pallys, see WotA II work for Rogues, incentive for staying pure barbarian after 14, more high level spell selection for casters, better spell selection and bigger mana pool or healing enhancements for clerics to keep up with the current games requirements, much more useful spells far bards, PrC as enhancements for fighters and more useful feats, I'm even keeping my fingers crossed that everyone will be happy with their monk when they get capped and settled on gear and AP's.

Oh yeah...dwarf AC pally ftw.

GeneralDiomedes
06-12-2008, 05:44 PM
You should realize by now that

- Righteous Fury is about 10 minutes of coding
- They haven't added it over many iterations of new Paladin spells
- You will never get it.

So, did we really need yet another Paladin thread?

KoboldKiller
06-12-2008, 05:45 PM
/sigh


Sorry Bor see my edits.

Borror0
06-12-2008, 05:46 PM
Sad that my trollish thread that took 2 minutes to write gets more reply that my long thread that took hours to create... :(

Twerpp
06-12-2008, 05:47 PM
Sad that my trollish thread that took 2 minutes to write gets more reply that my long thread that took hours to create... :(

LMAO Im not done readin that one yet!!!!!!!

Borror0
06-12-2008, 05:47 PM
LMAO Im not done readin that one yet!!!!!!!

Faster, faster!!:D

Yaga_Nub
06-12-2008, 05:54 PM
I say yes!!

They got high AC!!!
They got high saves!!
They got Lay on Hands
They can land the highest criticals!!!:eek:
They got Resist Energy!!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

Dude have you seen Hawtty Hottpants? She's fine and she's a paladin. RAWR!

Falco_Easts
06-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Personally, I think Pali's are fine.
I'm on the flipside to the OP. I get sick of everytime someone comes on these boards saying how they ilke their Pali or love the new DS or ES enhancements the same people jump down there throat and tell them they're wrong and their Paili's are gimped.
Could Pali's be better. Of course they could. Every class could.
The biggest problem with Pali's at the moment are the bad rap there are getting from the same people on the forums bringing up the same stupid arguments.

*EDIT I will add although this sounds like a flame it was not intened as one. Well, not fully any way. Coffee just hasn't kicked in yet.

Borror0
06-12-2008, 06:00 PM
Personally, I think Pali's are fine.

Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

Chelsa
06-12-2008, 06:16 PM
Palys are the weakest of the melee classes because of stat requirements. They are not dps agro holding builds because the class is not designed that way. I am sure somebody will post a bunch of numbers and argue till the fat lady sings, but if you want to tank the Pit Fiend, for example, it is gonna be a tweaked Barb or a Fighter. When fighting a classic MMO raid boss it takes ultra high constant DPS and a Healbot. That is just the reality.

I understand that there are many ways to build a Paly, but when I am playing my cleric and doing the healing against a raid boss, I don't want a group a Palys.

Also I love my Paly. She is my main and was built during head start.

Falco_Easts
06-12-2008, 07:17 PM
Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

Define power?
Power to generate DPS?
Power to keep the party upright?
Power of versatilty UMD, lockpicking, healing and melee etc...
Power to add to the power of those around you with bonuses such as Aura's and Song?
Power to be a solo player?

In a game like this, I don't think you can pigeon hole the "power" of individual classes. Each does there own thing for the greater good of the party.
I am not side stepping the question I just don't think it can be given an answer.

Vormaerin
06-12-2008, 07:44 PM
Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

That's a bogus challenge and I'm pretty sure you know it. There will always be a "weakest" class if you are forced to configure the question like that. Its quite likely that paladins are that class at the moment.

The big problem with these arguments is that they completely ignore playstyle. If your only concern is capped out raiding characters, you are going to have a very different perspective on what is useful or not than someone who plays in a small slowly as she goes group. Paladins and fighters are very solid until the barbs get Crit Rage (lvl 11 & 14). At that point, both classes are going to gain a little more power by picking up something of another class than staying with their own and they are still going to fall behind in DPS. But that's only a matter of life and death to a certain type of player.. a common one, but not the only rational one out there.

But if you really mean that you aren't saying paladins are gimp, it might be a good idea to stop constantly staying paladins are gimp and all their new stuff sucks. You personally may not be saying this, Borror0, but plenty of your allies are. You can complete all the non raid content in this game with a 4 man group that has a fighter or paladin as its melee guy. Would a barbarian be better? Probably. Does that necessitate a constant pilgrimage of weeping, teeth gnashing, and the wearing of sackcloth and ashes? Or, more to the point, constantly berating the devs and any players who actually enjoy playing their paladins? I don't think so.

Angelus_dead
06-12-2008, 09:35 PM
The big problem with these arguments is that they completely ignore playstyle. If your only concern is capped out raiding characters, you are going to have a very different perspective on what is useful or not than someone who plays in a small slowly as she goes group. Paladins and fighters are very solid until the barbs get Crit Rage (lvl 11 & 14).
The performance of the class at levels 11 and under is not relevant to this complaint.

It is an abbreviation when someone says "Paladins need love". Either he is mistaken, or what he really means is "Paladin levels 12-16 need love, because there is little reason to continue advancing in the class"

Pyromaniac
06-12-2008, 09:58 PM
My paladin was overpowered at his role, which was being a bank toon. He's been recently deleted never to be seen in stormreach again.

stockwizard5
06-12-2008, 10:05 PM
My paladin was overpowered at his role, which was being a bank toon. He's been recently deleted never to be seen in stormreach again.

Wow - thats drastic - I LOVE my bankslot Pally :rolleyes:

dameron
06-12-2008, 10:16 PM
I say yes!!

They got high AC!!!
They got high saves!!
They got Lay on Hands
They can land the highest criticals!!!:eek:
They got Resist Energy!!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

If I were to list all the character levels, from 1-16 in a row, like so:

1
2
3
4

at what point do Paladins stop being "fine"?

Borror0
06-13-2008, 12:22 AM
That's a bogus challenge and I'm pretty sure you know it. There will always be a "weakest" class if you are forced to configure the question like that. Its quite likely that paladins are that class at the moment.

You fail to understand that is totally the point and, that alone, makes it worth to boost paladins.

You see, Turbine will always add more and more feats, spells and enhancements to the game, always. They will always add more. It's not a question of balancing, because even if they would reach perfect balance, they would keep on adding enhancements, spells and feats because this is an MMO and thus will always have new content to keep its players occupied. Now, if we petition developers like this is that paladins have remained at the very bottom for too long.

Honestly, paladins have fallen to the botom in Module 4.0 and Turbine has improved all other classes ever since.

The whole reason we ask them to give the level 12-16 paladins some love is to keep the sort of balance we have. Since they keep adding sutff, if they don't add anything to the paladin, he'll fall further behind. That's the point of targetting, paladins, and to petition for some love. After that, you will see me jumping on fighter, then on monks... then, we'll see what happens.

The whole point is to keep a balance.

TechNoFear
06-13-2008, 02:54 AM
I don't think it is that paladins are underpowered, it is just the other classes got overpowered benefits (Crit Rage, Rams Might etc)

The other issue I have with my paladin (16) is that every ablility is a clicky (SE, ES and the new one that is not worth the points). A single missed attack in the chain negates any benefit of these abilities. Paladins know how often your SE fails to land or interupts your attack sequence. (sure this is a bug that is supposed to be fixed sometime in the future, why then was the only paladin love in mod 7 based on a buggy part of the game?)

Compared this to to other melees special abilities which are timed (Rage, Multi-Shot etc). Much better as the ability is not 100% negated because the mob moved, died or ran away.

Finally paladins enhancements are starting to cost reasonable amounts. Barbarians can double the number of rages with one point where Paladins had to pay 2 for one AC.

I also don't understand why paladin spells have short durations or effects that do not scale to high levels.

Divine Favor is great at low level, but too short at 16th. DF is in no way on par with Rams Might.
Angel Skin might be useful if it had a greater duration at better than haste.
What useful second lvl spell do paladins have apart from Resist Energy?

Uska
06-13-2008, 02:58 AM
I was getting ready to jump all over you until I read the full post, but yeah they need some love.

GlassCannon
06-13-2008, 03:37 AM
This community certainly is the purest form of that very phrase.


Enough, let it die.



As for Borror0's questions, I believe they deserve an answer rather than vague and subtle traipsing about the issue. Sadly, that is something I cannot provide. I don't have a Paladin.

Geonis
06-13-2008, 03:43 AM
Obviously Paladins are way too overpowered, as you can tell by the "spells in development" list below.





Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.



Seriously, these are going to bring the Paladin out of last place in any role in the game once you get into Gianthold and beyond?

How about the DEVS actually listen a little when the players talk? I don't mean blindly add anything we ask for, but when the common sense is that Paladins up to 11 are okay, and past then are an exercise in futility, how can they come back with spells that are rendered obsolete by:


Zeal - a level 7 end reward [Delera's bracers], although I do like the speed boost, with the 1 minute duration and unknown % boost (not likely to stack with striding or Haste), it will most likely be worthless.

Lionheart - for self, making level 3 renders this spell worthless, for others, Greater Hero starts being available at level 11. As far as removing Fear, level 1 pots do that quite well, or cheap clickies do it too, without costing mana.

Stalwart Pact - this spell never has any use in DDO. The 40 temps HPs are roughly 1.2 hits in the level 12+ content where you can actually use it, +2 to saves is not needed by a Pally, and DR5/magic is bypassed by everything but (possibly) animals at level 12+.



I mean seriously DEVS, can we get a little thought put into these things, I know you're a little gun shy after the Barb Crit Rage fiasco, but if you think these are even remotely what the Paladin needs, then you need to quit playing your Dwarf Barb for a bit and try playing a non-Dwarf Paladin for a bit in Gianthold and beyond.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 03:49 AM
Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

Geonis
06-13-2008, 04:07 AM
Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

I am not calling them incompetent, I basically think (and they have admitted) that they don't want to overpower another class with enhancements/spells, which I understand.

The adding of the previous spells however shows that either the people who decide what gets added are either not listening or don't play the game (as Paladins, without God mode on), possibly both.

Honestly, we are told (by the Devs) that the Paldin should be a defensive based class, that's fine if the Devs want the Paladin based this way (although there is no DnD basis for this). Then make the class based around being defensive, add spells/enhancements that point the Paladin toward this goal. We have seen several "nerfs" to the Paladin, but no definitive help for the "defensive" Paladin. I do not think the addition of the above spells will make a dent in the hole that has been dug for the Paladins, and I challenge anyone to point out otherwise.


Geo


Edit - I wrote the previous post as a point-by-point review of the spells, I simply fail to see any point to them being added. A review with a change to the type of bonus, duration per cast, etc.... could make them extremely useful. Devs need to remember that while a type of bonus not common in DnD, it can be extremely common in DDO (+4 deflection bonus is kind of rare in DnD, but a static end reward available at level 7 in DDO and randomly available at level 11).

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 04:13 AM
The whole point is to keep a balance.

Well, see, I don't see anyone objecting to boosting paladins and very few folks seriously suggesting paladins are equal to the top end characters. What I do see is a lot of your allies being rather abusive to the devs and to other posters who don't agree with the hyperbole being tossed around on the subject. And a lot of folks responding with "they aren't the greatest thing ever, but they are perfectly playable as is."

More stuff is always a good thing. It would be awesome if there was enough spells, feats, enhancements, etc that there were 20 or 30 different ways to build a particular class. What's annoying people is not proposing more stuff for the paladins (or anyone else). Its the constant haranguing to the effect that the devs are incompetent and anyone who likes any of the stuff they are making is clueless that is torquing people off. The constant chanting of "paladins suck", when as you point out above they don't. They just aren't as good as barbarians or melee rangers at the moment. Used to be the other way around, as you know. I think the devs are trying to avoid wild power swings from mod to mod. It would be nice to hear why they don't seem interested in the Turn substitution feats, certainly. It would be nice to know if they are not putting in stuff that scales to the current uberness level of the big boys because they want to claw back some of that uberness over the long term or what.

The vehemence is unwarranted and counterproductive, imho. The devs have said over and over they don't deal with that kind of posting. I know that's not you in particular, but its what floods pretty much all the paladin threads pretty quick.

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 04:30 AM
Edit - I wrote the previous post as a point-by-point review of the spells, I simply fail to see any point to them being added. A review with a change to the type of bonus, duration per cast, etc.... could make them extremely useful. Devs need to remember that while a type of bonus not common in DnD, it can be extremely common in DDO (+4 deflection bonus is kind of rare in DnD, but a static end reward available at level 7 in DDO and randomly available at level 11).

None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Stalwart Pact does look pretty dubious, but the other two will get a fair bit of use. Just not at end game where the paladin most needs help.

Geonis
06-13-2008, 04:34 AM
None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Stalwart Pact does look pretty dubious, but the other two will get a fair bit of use. Just not at end game where the paladin most needs help.

I am by no means in the "raid and loot run set". I have been here since launch and still have not hit 20 runs of any raid. That being said, I see no use in any of these spells.

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 04:49 AM
You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party? Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared? You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8? Then I suppose they are useless for you.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 04:52 AM
What's annoying people is not proposing more stuff for the paladins (or anyone else).

Like this? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)


The constant chanting of "paladins suck", when as you point out above they don't.

You know what annoys us? People who keeps on arguing that their paladin is playable.

You know what? We stil are playing our paladin!!! We know it, so stop telling us. You're thinking we're saying they're gimped or whatsoever. Earse all you read previously, and look at what we say! You'll notice that I, and many others, are actually wanting paladins to improve. Period, that's it. Nothing else to see.

In my opinion, a lot of those that argue against us; trying to get the point understood that their paladin isn't gimped are simply not possible to accept that their character is of a weaker class. It's those people that will argue you, on and on, if they did a mistake in finding pretexts to justify themselves. It's something totally minor, but they don't want to be wrong. Same here, paladin is a weak class, but they don't want to say it out load even if they know it.

My favorite quote is "they are not weak, but they need more love". Too funny. If they need love, they are weaker!


The vehemence is unwarranted and counterproductive, imho. The devs have said over and over they don't deal with that kind of posting. I know that's not you in particular, but its what floods pretty much all the paladin threads pretty quick.

I know that, read the link I gave you above.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 04:57 AM
None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Paladins pre-level 11 are alright, so anything in that area doesn't solve the issue.

Lionheart is uselss for that, because you'll mostly have GH by then.
Zeal is useless because by level cleric will have Shield of Faith, or you'll find one of the very common +4/5 Deflection item.

DoctorWhofan
06-13-2008, 05:15 AM
I..

er...

well...

uhm...

(steps down from her soapbox, then sighs dramatically)

Borror0, not again!

(drags soapbox to another thread, something that will not turn into knock out argument with Borror0)

Illuminati
06-13-2008, 05:23 AM
TBH, I want a Pally in all my groups for the Aura, etc. but I don't want to play mine =)

It's not that they are bad it's just sort of boring. I tried out DS/ES with a SoS (lol at these acronyms) but I wasn't feeling it. I really wish they made these work on non-evil mobs somehow and it would have probably made the difference.

Geonis
06-13-2008, 05:25 AM
You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party?

Yes, but Pallys are immune to Fear at level 3, haven't faced mummies before that.



Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared?

No, but if they need their Fear removed, I can use a level 1 pot for no mana. The duration for this spell pretty much negates any pre-fight buffing use of it. Again (as I stated above), with a little change to the duration, it could be useful.


You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8?

Yes, it's an end reward for Delera's which I have probably run at least through elite for xp by this point.



Then I suppose they are useless for you.

Yes, that's what I've said already, but with some minor tweaks, they could be useful. The spells from DnD (mostly), do not translate directly to DDO without some tweaks (damage dice, HD affected, etc...).

Borror0
06-13-2008, 05:40 AM
(drags soapbox to another thread, something that will not turn into knock out argument with Borror0)

How about that one (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)?

Angelus_dead
06-13-2008, 05:45 AM
Yes, it's an end reward for Delera's which I have probably run at least through elite for xp by this point.
That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

Angelus_dead
06-13-2008, 05:47 AM
You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party? Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared? You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8? Then I suppose they are useless for you.
It was already explained above that paladins up to level 11 or 12 are already sufficiently powerful.

Adding abilities that come in before level 11-12 do not help the class.

DoctorWhofan
06-13-2008, 05:54 AM
How about that one (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)?

any of them!

Geonis
06-13-2008, 05:57 AM
That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

Difficult, but not impossible, and honestly the spell is counter-productive. The "defensive" Paladin is going to cause CE to turn off every time they cast this (every minute). It would honestly be better to use a +3 deflection item than this spell.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 06:05 AM
That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

I agree, but it does not make the spell any better.

gpk
06-13-2008, 07:30 AM
Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

Quite frankly this latest batch of craptastic spells is bordering on incompetence or someone's idea of a cruel joke; it shows a serious lack of , well, everything really.

I won't go into detail here as it's been said before a gazillion times and I'm still shocked at how bad the devs keep messing up with nearly all things pally.

Really if the devs get offended by peoples reactions at this point they have noone to blame but themselves; their choices and reasoning are just infuriatingly bad.

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 10:11 PM
It was already explained above that paladins up to level 11 or 12 are already sufficiently powerful.

Adding abilities that come in before level 11-12 do not help the class.

Yes, they do. They just don't address the issue that most of the complaints relate to. That's not the same thing.

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 10:26 PM
Yes, but Pallys are immune to Fear at level 3, haven't faced mummies before that.

No, but if they need their Fear removed, I can use a level 1 pot for no mana. The duration for this spell pretty much negates any pre-fight buffing use of it. Again (as I stated above), with a little change to the duration, it could be useful.



Yeah, the paladin is immune to fear. His party members are not. I see folks cowering facing the mummies in the Necropolis series all the time. This is the only source of fear immunity prior to lvl 11 or so, isn't it? The buffing argument is a little weak considering all the other extremely short duration buff spells that folks use regularly. Granted, you can't buff the entire party with this in a timely fashion, so that's kind of a drag. Both these spells would benefit substantially from a somewhat longer duration. And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC. I'd certainly welcome those changes.

But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

Vormaerin
06-13-2008, 10:38 PM
Like this? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)

I know that, read the link I gave you above.

Yes, Borror0, I know you are not part of the problem crowd on this topic. I've been quite clear about that. Sadly, there are a number of other prolific posters with views similar to yours that are. They are the ones with the vitriol and the exaggerated cases that result in the equally pointless counter posts you just complained of. That's why you are getting afflicted with my replies instead of them (replying to them is pointless).

Angelus_dead
06-13-2008, 11:02 PM
Yes, they do. They just don't address the issue that most of the complaints relate to. That's not the same thing.
I'll explain it once more.

The problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good.
The help that Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem.

Adding low-level abilities does make Paladin a more powerful overall, but they do not help the class. Adding power is not necessarily the same as helping.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 11:16 PM
Yes, Borror0, I know you are not part of the problem crowd on this topic. I've been quite clear about that. Sadly, there are a number of other prolific posters with views similar to yours that are.

So, protesters are morons... because there was a guy that showed up in a protest for peace with a gun and shot in the air, causing chaos?

Geonis
06-13-2008, 11:27 PM
Yeah, the paladin is immune to fear. His party members are not. I see folks cowering facing the mummies in the Necropolis series all the time. This is the only source of fear immunity prior to lvl 11 or so, isn't it? The buffing argument is a little weak considering all the other extremely short duration buff spells that folks use regularly. Granted, you can't buff the entire party with this in a timely fashion, so that's kind of a drag. Both these spells would benefit substantially from a somewhat longer duration. And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC. I'd certainly welcome those changes.

But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

This is not really the only source of fear immunity prior to level 11. At level 9, Wizards and Sorcs become able to scroll Greater Hero via Caster Level check (a 4 for a Wiz or a 6 for Sorcs on a d20). I would much rather cough up a little cash for a few scrolls (with a duration of 11 minutes), than deal with the duration/number of casts needed hassle of this spell. Saying it might be usable for a miniscule portion of the population, does not mean it is useful.

Arguing the semantics of useless vs. usable by less than 5% of the population, is a waste of my time and (I hope) yours.

Again, with some modifications, these spells could be useful, but straight ports from DnD to DDO need to be examined prior to implementation.




Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.




My suggestions are:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Change bonus type to Sacred, duration to 10secs/level. The speed bonus needs to be defined and noted if it stacks with Haste. If it does stack, then 10-20% is plenty ( I suggest 15% myself, or have it start at 5% and increase with level). If not, then it needs to be at least30%, or start at 20% and increase 5% every 5 levels.



Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

I would change this to affect anyone currently affected by the Paladns aura. That would make it effective, and the duration could stay the same. It also keeps the aura (something the Devs seem to want to use more) involved. The duration would be fine then, but with the speed of combat in DDO, to cast this more than once would be a pain.



Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

The number of Hps needs to be changed to scale with DDO HP inflation, probably changing it to 5HP/level should be enough. The Luck bonus to saves is more for Clerics than Pallys, it could probably stay the same (one thought would be to make 1's not auto failure while this spell is active, but it is not needed). The DR is insufficient with the Monty Hall loot around here, change it to 5/- or 5/evil, possibly even bump the number based on level.


Those changes would make these spells relevant. Again however, the issue isn't really whther these spells are useful or not, the issue is we are asking for high level Paladin help, and we get 3 spells? Only one of which is used at higher level, and is arguably the least useful (effectively negating 1.2 hits and that's it).



Edit: Another thought I have been having, considering the Pally is supposed to be "Defensive focused", how about Pally spells don't cause CE to turn off? Something I don't think would be overpowered at all, but would definitely be a boon to the Pally Tanks.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 11:56 PM
Quite frankly this latest batch of craptastic spells is bordering on incompetence or someone's idea of a cruel joke

I agree with that feeling, and you know very well.

I'm saying that we should try to get him down here and talk, rather than insulting him. That's all. Cooperation is needed. We keep on sugestion spells, and they get ignored. Why? How do you disagree with us, Eladrin? What, exactly do you fear? Because, it's important for us to know. If you've got your idea, fine with us... but we need to know what it is to keep our suggestions revelant.


And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC.

If it was something other than Deflection, it'd be a bad idea also.


But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

They are worthless, as they don't address the issue, at all.
It's not that they could be better, it's that they don't solve anything at all.

Vorm, wanna something ironic? You are the one who say that some of us are too aggressive, but you come down here and knock on us. What you're doing seems, at best, to be like waving a steak in front of a dog that has been starving for days. You should try to understand our point of view a little, and you'll see why we say those spells are useless.

Yes, they have a use... but they are useless at end game, where the issue is and the complaints come from!!

Venar
06-14-2008, 01:31 AM
The paladin suffers mainly from the lack of need of his skills. A few points of AC, or a few extra saves didnt help much.
This is changing.
Have you run the 2 new raids?
What do you need? High Saves. High AC. The ability to Rebuff. Good Weapons. Support. Crazy fast healing. And it makes a difference. Putting your main aggro tank on Horned devil over 65 AC will be a raid-breaker. Ensuring the roaming party in Hound does not get mindblasted/dominated is huge.


I think having a guy that gives the party +4 AC, +3 all Saves, +9 concentration, Death Ward, Protection evil, Remove Curse, Cure Serious Wound, Rez/fast heal, and still able to get out it's shiny +5 holy silver weapon and smite every 3 seconds for an extra 9d6 damage with extra criticals... is a nice guy to have along.

Hvymetal
06-14-2008, 02:12 AM
The paladin suffers mainly from the lack of need of his skills. A few points of AC, or a few extra saves didnt help much.
This is changing.
Have you run the 2 new raids?
What do you need? High Saves. High AC. The ability to Rebuff. Good Weapons. Support. Crazy fast healing. And it makes a difference. Putting your main aggro tank on Horned devil over 65 AC will be a raid-breaker. Ensuring the roaming party in Hound does not get mindblasted/dominated is huge.


I think having a guy that gives the party +4 AC, +3 all Saves, +9 concentration, Death Ward, Protection evil, Remove Curse, Cure Serious Wound, Rez/fast heal, and still able to get out it's shiny +5 holy silver weapon and smite every 3 seconds for an extra 9d6 damage with extra criticals... is a nice guy to have along.
Probablly one of the main reasons I don't bring out my Paladin, nothing says thsi character is fun and/or usefull more than being reduced to a walking party buff.......

eonfreon
06-14-2008, 02:54 AM
Probablly one of the main reasons I don't bring out my Paladin, nothing says thsi character is fun and/or usefull more than being reduced to a walking party buff.......

Yeah cuz that's the role of the Wizard and Bard. ;) Who wants haste, CC, buffs, and resists?

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 06:58 AM
I am so sick of you two whining and complaining.

Paladins don't need more spells.

Paladins are not "not fine"

Paladins are not a "support class"

Paladins are not "underpowered"

If you are still having problems with your Paladin I posit that you suck at this game.

The boost we got with this mod was tremendous. Appreciate it.

If you don't like your character or the class, delete it, and stop posting about it.

If you really like paladin's, roll a good one, or learn how to use hotkeys/a gamepad/ take piano lessons so your fingers move faster... do something, anything but continually post about how you are underpowered.

Above all, for the love of god, STOP WHINING!

Geonis
06-14-2008, 07:05 AM
I am so sick of you two whining and complaining.

Paladins don't need more spells.

Paladins are not "not fine"

Paladins are not a "support class"

Paladins are not "underpowered"

If you are still having problems with your Paladin I posit that you suck at this game.

The boost we got with this mod was tremendous. Appreciate it.

If you don't like your character or the class, delete it, and stop posting about it.

If you really like paladin's, roll a good one, or learn how to use hotkeys/a gamepad/ take piano lessons so your fingers move faster... do something, anything but continually post about how you are underpowered.

Above all, for the love of god, STOP WHINING!




Edit: Nothing constructive, nothing to back up your position, nothing worthwhile to say at all.

Edit 2: To remove response that may or may not get a thread locked.

Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-14-2008, 07:06 AM
Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

What are you a teacher assiging hw? lol

Borror0
06-14-2008, 07:32 AM
What are you a teacher assiging hw? lol

Nope, but what is the point of saying something without backing up their claims?

If paladins are fine, then tell me which class is the weakest, which is the strongest and why. (Perfect balance does not exist.) Why would any paladin "love" make them overpowered? Because that's the question, you know. If you don't want paladins to receive attnetion, then tell me what class it should be and why.

I have stated my reasons over and over again on these forums.

I'd like someone to tell me theirs, maybe I'm wrong but to be wrong I'd like to be pointed out why. You're never going to convince anyone by making unbacked claims. If paladins are fine, then tell me what class is not. Perfect balance is impossible, and if it would be, it would be broken by the following Module. Developers will always add new content in the form of spells, enhancements and feats. It's just a matter of picking who gets what this Module. They will always aim the the weakest or most unpopular classes because they are the one that needs that help, whereas the most powerful classes might get overpowered if given attention.

I'm thinking I'm superior, or whatsoever, but I'm tired of people saying "Paladins are fine." everytime I post. If they are, then please tell me why, tell me what class is more powerful than them, which are weaker, which you would like to improve if you where at Turbine and why you would improve that class. Give me numbers, or at least refer to class feats, enhancements and spells and explain me how they perform better in the metagame than other classes, or how certain classes perform worse than paladins.

Otherwise, we're going no where. Base yourself on facts.

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 07:55 AM
Edit: Nothing constructive, nothing to back up your position, nothing worthwhile to say at all.

Edit 2: To remove response that may or may not get a thread locked.

Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

I am not calling anyone names.

These repeated threads whining and complaining about Paladins are NOT CONSTRUCTIVE

I back up my position with the fact that one of the best characters on my server is a 28 pt paladin, built at headstart, and an elf
to boot. Then again Goodwin doesn't suck at this game so its not hard for him to stay competitive. Church.

*edit Ok i will give you this much. Paladins are not *easy* to play. In fact they are difficult to play, which I am thinking is the main reason certain people
are constantly whining and crying about them.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 08:04 AM
Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

Don't worry, I just told myself I'd ignore his posts myself. As long as you have blanked yours, it's alright.

It's not like he had formulated logic arguments to refute my points. The closest he has come to looks like:

"Paladins are fine."
"The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."
"I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."
"The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

With such weak arguments, replying furthemore is a waste of time.

The day he will start backing up his claims, I will probably reply to him. However, until then, I am done replying to him. I also encourage anyone to do the same as me and simply ignore him. He is obviously trolling and any argument with him will probably be a waste of time. He has not shown himself to say why paladins are "fine" when he was given multiple occasions to.

So, Geonis, don't worry. You did the right thing by blanking your post, for as long as you don't reply to him again.

Venar
06-14-2008, 08:07 AM
Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.

artvan_delet
06-14-2008, 12:17 PM
I'll explain it once more.

The problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good.
The help that Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem.

Adding low-level abilities does make Paladin a more powerful overall, but they do not help the class. Adding power is not necessarily the same as helping.

Angelus is right on here. I have a pure level 16 with over 120 raids under his belt. I absolutely regret taking levels 15 and 16 as a paladin. Should have taken fighter. Kept hoping for high level attention. DEVs keep giving paladins low level updates, and high level enhancements that cost too many action points for the value (ES 3). Much rather have fighter haste 1 and fighter str 1, tower shields, feat, etc. Should have gone 14/2 pally/fighter.

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 12:47 PM
Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.

QFT

Bards need a low level AOE AC song +1 to party or the like, better self buffs while buffing party (i.e. Warchanter should buff you more than everyone else), perma on songs (1 at a time activatables), and more. Monks are laughable as they are, I'm not bothering with anything but the established classes until druid. Clerics need domains, especially since blade barrier nerfs. Fighters, do they even exist anymore except as splash?

Paladins? What do they really need. Mine don't need anything.



Angelus is right on here. I have a pure level 16 with over 120 raids under his belt. I absolutely regret taking levels 15 and 16 as a paladin. Should have taken fighter. Kept hoping for high level attention. DEVs keep giving paladins low level updates, and high level enhancements that cost too many action points for the value (ES 3). Much rather have fighter haste 1 and fighter str 1, tower shields, feat, etc. Should have gone 14/2 pally/fighter.

Actually I agree with you. My pure pally sits by the wayside while my 14/2 gets alot more action. Then again this is not "proof" that there is something wrong with paladins. Most classes in this game benefit greatly from a splash of something or other.

Jondallar
06-14-2008, 12:57 PM
Dude have you seen Hawtty Hottpants? She's fine and she's a paladin. RAWR!


LMAO I dont know how this one slipped by me. Hawtty Hotpants is a gimp... well the build is dominant, but the playstyle is weak/noob sauce

ChildrenofBodom
06-14-2008, 01:04 PM
Paladins Definately aren't fine. Actually, they suck.

I never allow more then 1 paladin in my shroud groups. More then 1 and it will take half an hour to finish beating down the portals.

I try to keep paladins out of my lfms as much as possible unless I know the person.


Actually, I try to keep out pure fighters too. In my opinion, pure fighters are just as bad as paladins.

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Don't worry, I just told myself I'd ignore his posts myself. As long as you have blanked yours, it's alright.



"Paladins are fine."
"The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."
"I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."
"The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

With such weak arguments, replying furthemore is a waste of time.

The day he will start backing up his claims, I will probably reply to him. However, until then, I am done replying to him. I also encourage anyone to do the same as me and simply ignore him. He is obviously trolling and any argument with him will probably be a waste of time. He has not shown himself to say why paladins are "fine" when he was given multiple occasions to.

So, Geonis, don't worry. You did the right thing by blanking your post, for as long as you don't reply to him again.

Oh yea I am such a bad guy for arguing with you and you constant complaints about one of the best classes in the game. In fact
maybe I should stop and my characters will get a boost and be even more powerful.


Lets look at my claims that I have never backed up (except in every thread you have posted complaining about this)


"Paladins are fine"

I don't see how this is so outrageous a supposition. My paladin almost NEVER dies, is always in the top ranks in kill count, never fails to crit on a 20 the rare times I am using a vorpal, rarely takes more damage than I can self manage unless someone pulls an enormous mob, can rez a whole party without boosting or swapping around items, can play backup healer when our so called tank (usually a barbarian) bites off way more than he can chew, can main tank when, well pretty much any time, is cracking 480 hp, 250 sp, can DS all day and laugh at the lashback damage, can hit orthos in the shroud elite on a 3, what the hell else could you want in a character?

"The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."

More evasion and misquoting from you. I said one of the best, and that is hands down a fact. Very few people would argue with that statement, and those that would would only do so because of some personal problem they have with the chap. Give em a little truth serum and they will recant their negative statements guaranteed.

"I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."

Ok so actually this is a bit off. Actually, I ******* LOVE ES and DS. If you don't, you aren't using these abilities right. Again it all comes down to your gaming skills. Not everyone can pull off using ES and DS effectively in combat. Paladins are not for children, nor are they for old guys who started gaming when the Wii came out. If you are mouse clicking on these, just give up now. If you have them hotkeyed and either one of them is ever on timer for more than 1 second (meh maybe not including ES depending how many you have and what you are fighting) give up now. If your ES and DS aren't both going off in swings 3-5 and hitting every time, give up now. You aren't fast enough to be a good paladin, sorry. :(

"The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

"'Nuff Said" - Stan Lee

Borror0
06-14-2008, 01:51 PM
Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.

Ok, I have in many threads, but it is split. I'll do a big review of all the classes, according to me. I will, however, separate spellcasters from melee classes becomes it makes the comparison a little big too hard. I hope you are fine with that. So, I hope you enjoy because this will probably take me a lot of time.

Here I go...

Spellcasters:

Anything that has a blue bar in this game as the potential to be more powerful than those that don't. Simply put, the ability to kil at range is incredibly powerful in this game. Thanks to the active combat system, a lot is based off the players reaction to the mobs. A player thus can avoid hits for as long as he can stay out of melee range. Given the AI limitations, a player can kite a mob through a Firewall or a Blade Barrier without any problem, solving a lot of the limitations that the blue bar has.



Cleric:

Yes, first position.

Clerics have the power to heal themselves, and others. In this game, that alone is very powerful. Potions don't cut it since level 8ish, not everyone can UMD scrolls, even less at mid-levels. The simple fact of being able to efficiently heal youself when you get aggro, plus your teamates are enoguh to get themselves invite in the group. I don't think many people would be ready to attempt any raids without a cleric, unless it's the Titan or there is an healing bard(s) in the group.

Then, if you take a look at their spell selection, you'll see how powerful it is.

The most obvious one is Blade Barrier. Like I sais previously, the ability to kill without having to enter mele range is incredibly powerful : you can kill a mob without taking any damage or taking reduced damage. Unlike Firewall, I don't think that there is any mob immune to it, although I could be wrong. But even if I'd be wrong, the number of mob immune to fire is much more common in the current metagame, given how common devils and orthons. Plus, since it's a level 6 spell, Mantle of Invulnerability won't protect a mob against it.

However, kiting is not dangerless. Ranged attacks can get you, so can spells, but a cleric can heal himself or mitigate damage through Protection from Energy and Resist Energy.

Besides Blade Barrier, clerics don't find themselves lacking in good spells. Cometfall, Banishment, Deathward (includes Deathward, Mass), Destruction, Greater Command, Restoration (includes Greater Restoration and Restoration, Mass), Soundburst, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Symbol of Stunning, etc. Clerics are clearly not a class to pity. They have a smaller mana pool, but they compensate by being able to swap spell at will, having more high level spells and to self heal.

If there are any complaints about clerics, it's most likely a complaint about how healing dependant melee classes are in this game. As soon as you enter melee range, the damage climb up. Of course, high DPS melee characters will shorten the time it takes to complete a quest, but a full group of clerics will take less resources in completing any quest. Slower, probably, but less expensive for sure. Hopefuly, Heal, Mass will help with that issue.


Sorcerer:

Surprise for no one, they are second.

Sorcerers have a a huge mana pool, which makes them better than wizard for now. However, that mostly because of the lack of good spells. A sorcerer, while he does have to sacrifice a few handy spells, does not have to make too many sacrifices. The biggest culprit is the lack of good level 8 spells. There isn't a single spell that currently makes you tell yourself "Wow!!", so you're not really missing out on anything by only having a single level 8 slot. Then, you can also blame the lack of interesting spells at lower levels. While there are a few spells you wish you could take, you're not really missing out on anything.

Of course, I suspect that this will change once they increase the cap level from 16 to 18. Thee arrival of spell such as Hold Monster, Mass, Imprisonement, Wail of the Banshee, Weird and a probably a bunch of others from the Spell Compendium will make Wizard much more attracting and powerful.

Lastly, their high Charisma makes them pretty skilled at UMD. A lot of them can self-heal with Heal scrolls, which makes them furthermore powerful.


Wizard:

Wizards rank themselves above bards for their bigger mana pool, their spell selection and their ability to change spell between quests and at shrines.

Like I've said previously, the biggest problem of wizards is the lack of good spells. However, Turbine are finding ways to increase the value of high level ones. By giving mobs HP as high as they got in Module 6 & 7, they made the fast nuking sorcerer has lost a lot of efficiency and making mobs immune to fire and resitant to ice pushes that even further as it makes crowd-control much more itneresting. as you need more spells to be a good crowd-control spellcaster than a nuker. Then, high SR does the same, since sorcerers have less feats than a wizard. Plus, the addition of thre raids in two modules further increases how interesting wizards are to a party, as a sorcerer has less slots available for debuffs (and Mantle of Invulnerability totally remvoes the possibility for a sorcerer to debuff effectively).

Wiards will probably get some bonus when the cap was raised, powerful level 9 spells plus an increased SP pool will play in their favor. Wziards are starting to lack less and less in SPs through a quest and have to be less and less cautious as the cap is raised, that helps them too. They clearly don't need any improvement, time will take care of it for the biggest part.


Bard:

Bards are the weakest spellcasters.

Spellsingers simply lack the power to compete versus the others. The simple fact that they are so unpopular should speak for itself.
Yes they do get UMD, but a sorcerer can reach the benchmarks quite easily. They have lower SP pool and less interesting spells than the others. They can heal, but not as efficiently as a cleric... and Heal, Mass might totally leave them behind as they won't be able to even scroll it since they won't be available from vendors.

Against red names, all they can do is pretty much heal. Most of their good spells are enchantments, and raid and end bosses are immune to these. In fact, red and purple names are immune to to any crowd-control. So, they heal. Thankfuly, they've got access to ncie buffs like Rage, Greater Heroism, Haste, Displacement and Inspire Courage, but once the buffing stange is over... they heal, maintain Displacement and Haste on and cast songs when if needed.

Even in the crowd-control department, they're not the best. No Mass Holds, no Symbols, lower DCs... it ads up.

Clearly, they could use some lovin', but bard songs are enough to keep them interesting, for now.

AS for Virtuoso, that was a poor idea since the very beginning. Spellsinger is simply better, on all aspects. While Enthrallment is nice, the DC isn't any higher than Fascinate and the penalties are for from outstanding. Virtuoso would make an interesting PrC, but as a PrE, it's totally uninteresting.



Melee:



Barbarian:

Honestly, I don't know if I should put rangers first or barbarians.

I put barbarians first 'cause of the HP, mostly. Both got insane DPS and an advantage with WoP, one from faster attack rate and the other with greater chance to land a critical. However, even if the new raids up the usefulness of Evasion, HP is still a killer for rangers. So, I'll give first place to barbarian for that but let's just say that dwarven rangers are not far behind.

Barbarians are well adapted for the end game. They got low AC, but what's AC anyway? Turbine has made it so hard that it's not even worth it, except for specialised builds.. and even those builds face issues at end game. HP is the key way to survive. No matter your AC, your saves or if you got Improved Evasion... it's irrevelant. You need an amount of HP to keep alive. The problem is that the end game is balanced accordingly to the Toughness enhancements. The encounters need to be a challenge for the 500 HP dwarven fighter and the 600 HP barbarians"

The problem arises when some classes got half of that, and that the game is balanced for the highest... rather than an average, or even the low average. That pushes barbarians ahead, they don't even need Toughness to get that much HP!! More APs free for their enhancements. On top of it, they have got good saves and DR which helps mitigate the damage partialy.

Clearly not to pity.


Ranger

High DPS, greater effificency with WoP and other proc effects and Evasion. Mostly what we're looking for at end game. Furthermore, being able to cast Freedom of Movement and Protection from Energy is a great bonus. They beat the DPS of a fighter, versus any mobs, and totally owns them when it's against their Favored Enemy. Given the prevalence of Evil Outsiders at end game, their DPS is just nuts.

Their only downside is their lower HP, but that's a flaw Turbine shoudl try to correct, because it affects other classes negatively.


Warchanter

Yes, third position. Surprised? You shouldn't. Their only problem is their low stackability.

One is game breaking, further more in a raid, but a second has less benefits than a barbarian or a ranger, although taking a second isn't a bad choice.

Warchanters can keep Displacement, Haste, Rage, Inspire Courage, Stoneskin and Greater Heroism on them all the time, you can even add a Fire Shield scrolls on top of it if needed. With Inspire Courage, they can reach DPS similar to one of a barbarian would withou Inspire Courage and they increase the DPS of everyone in the party. Already increadibly efficient in six-man quests, and furthermore in raids.

I'll also mention Fascinate for when things just don't go the way you hoped they would...;)

Warchanters weren't so viable pre-Module 4, but the decreased need for AC and the increased demand for DPS made them as powerful as they currently are. The warchanter helped in popularising the idea, but the build would have gotten more popular anyway with time. Also, the access to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting hlepd the class' DPS a lot.


Rogue

Clearly one of the hardest to play and most under-estimated class in the game.

The DPS they can deal with their sneak attacks is plain nuts, high than a barbarian's! They got Improved Evasion and UMD to boot. their problem, squishiness... Thanks to the wonderful Toughness enhancements, d6 HD classes suffer a lot. They can contribute greatly, but really low HP hurts them badly. It's part of the reasons why dwarven are so popular.

However, they're not easy to play at all. The compinasion of high DPS and low HP isn't a good mix, unless you're skilled. Aggro management is something really important for every rogue. The apparition of Subtle Backstabbing and then Treason-like effects surely helped. So does the change of Diplomacy to make it instant. The reduction of the cooldown from 10 to 6 seconds will help greatly too, I'm sure.


Monk

The new class, great class... but incomplete.

When you look at the monk, or when you play one, you're amazed of what they did of the class. I hear reports from tons of friends on how much they like to play their monk. Turbine clearly suceeded in creating their newest class. However, it seems that they ran out of time on some aspects. The finishing moves clearly could use some rework. Even the stances could, a good example of that is that Wind Stance is completly overlaped by Haste. Hopefuly the fourth tier will be +30% and thus will be better than Haste, but less powerful than Tempest.

Another place where they are lacking is DPS, although I understand the reason for that.

You see, a monk can have an AC as high as a fighter would, but be TwF fighting whereas the fighter will be in S&B. Even if the monk had to sacrifice a lot of Str for that, the simple fact of wielding two-weapons put him ahead in DPS. So, if you allow monks to get too high DPS, they will have high DPS (even if less than a barbarian) but will have also an insane AC, insane saves, SR and Improved Evasion. Their only lacking point would be HP, but AC should compensate for that, if it doesn't, then all the defensive tanks are paying for that too. Hence the problem.

They make an amazing defensive class, but as soon as you want to spec them for DPS they are lacking. Limiting a class only to AC is pretty limiting. And, even if you do decide to make of them the defensive class od DDO that will always have to rely on AC... they are lacking an AoE taunt.


Fighter & paladin

I put these two together, because they share too many issues.

You see, both of them are classes that Turbine had designed as defensive classes. However, Module 4 was the death of mid-AC and issues have started to arise for defensive tanks altogether. The death of mid-AC that the argument "but fighters and paladins can get more AC than a barbarian" died.

A fighter can no longer reach the Armor Class he needs to be hit less often, unless he goes S&B. Well, theoricly he can, it just takes a lot of raid loot (Chattering Ring and Heighten Awareness 4 brings the total to 6 unacheivable AC without raid gear) and a little of farming for the rest (+6 Dexterity item, Chaosgarde, +5 Protection item), but there is still a great sacrifice to it. And honestly, the sacrifice is not worth it. The same apply for paladin.

A character focusing on AC has to sacrifice item slots for it that a characterthat does not don't. At best, a character's AC will compensate for his lower DPS. Problem is, he didn't have to sacrifice only DPS. But that's at best, step in on The Shroud on Elite and tell me how your AC fairs versus the Elite Orthon Defenders? How about the red names? And Harry? Sorry but a paladin's lower DPS is not offset by his AC. The fact that Turbine pushes the required of specialisation to obtain decent AC is insulting.

More specificly, for fighters, they got lower DPS than rangers and barbarians, even while spec'd for DPS. And before someone comments about it, yes, that excludes Favored Enemy and includes Fighter Haste Boost IV!! And, before someone alsoi talks about Trip and Stunning Blow, a barbarian is +3 behind to a fighter's Trip DCs (assuming Improved Trip for only the fighter) and equal +1 ahead for Stunning Blow! They're simply lacking on anything. Turbine has recently announced a lot of feats coming shortly, so we'll see what it's all about before making more noise.

As for paladins, their DPS is lacking as much.

In fact, every single class got a DPS increase since Module 3.3, except fighters. Paladins got the Divine Favor nerf of Module 4.0. They also got Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice which I don't consider as an improvement. Actually, I consider Divine Sacrifice a step behind. As for Exalted Smite, I see it as a good idea, needing tweaking. The obvious part is shorter regen, but I think there is a little tweaking we could do to see it much better.

Back to DPS, all classes have gotten a significant increase to DPS, paladins got their DPS lowered and fighters stayed the same. Rgith now, with a S&D paladin or fighter, you feel like you're hugging the mob rather than damaging him. The mobs are scaled for raging barbarians with Critical Rage II; rangers with Ram's Might, Tempest I and Favored Enemy and sorcerers, so it takes forever for a S&B character to get the mob down.

Furthemore, Aura of Good is near worthless because no one but a handful of characters have AC worth mentioning, their spell selection is lacking, they lack an AoE taunt to grab aggro, which at least fighters have. Well, you can multiclass to get it, but you shouldn't have to.

So, what do you think? Anyone disagree? If so, where and why?

Borror0
06-14-2008, 01:57 PM
More evasion and misquoting from you. I said one of the best, and that is hands down a fact. Very few people would argue with that statement.

Mind if I do?

It's the best character. First, that character would be better with 32 point build, if you deny that, you're lying and you'dneed a trith serum. Secondly, it's not a question of good character there but good player, try to deny that and you'll look like a fool to about everyone's eyes. I'm sure that this player is awesome whatever he plays.


If you don't, you aren't using these abilities right. Again it all comes down to your gaming skills. Not everyone can pull off using ES and DS effectively in combat. Paladins are not for children, nor are they for old guys who started gaming when the Wii came out. If you are mouse clicking on these, just give up now. If you have them hotkeyed and either one of them is ever on timer for more than 1 second (meh maybe not including ES depending how many you have and what you are fighting) give up now. If your ES and DS aren't both going off in swings 3-5 and hitting every time, give up now. You aren't fast enough to be a good paladin, sorry. :(

Thank you for exactly explaining the reason DS should never have been implemented. You just saved me time. :)

Gunga
06-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Hey Borr! How are you, mate?

I think you'd be better off playing Barbarians and Clerics!

You'd be sooo happy then!

:)!

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 02:05 PM
Mind if I do?

It's the best character. First, that character would be better with 32 point build, if you deny that, you're lying and you'dneed a trith serum. Secondly, it's not a question of good character there but good player, try to deny that and you'll look like a fool to about everyone's eyes. I'm sure that this player is awesome whatever he plays.


Yes it would be better.. as a 32 pt PALADIN. :rolleyes:




Thank you for exactly explaining the reason DS should never have been implemented. You just saved me time. :)
Thank you Borror0 for finally explaining why you don't like these awesome abilities. Maybe they should make you an easy button you can put on your hotbar that sets off ES and DS at the appropriate times.

Sorry dude but there are alot of people who play DDO who are excellent gamers. The active combat system and the speed is what attracted us to this game in the first place. Thank you DEVS for giving us something else (ES and DS) to twitch over.

Gunga
06-14-2008, 02:12 PM
Yes it would be better.. as a 32 pt PALADIN. :rolleyes:



Thank you Borror0 for finally explaining why you don't like these awesome abilities. Maybe they should make you an easy button you can put on your hotbar that sets off ES and DS at the appropriate times.

Sorry dude but there are alot of people who play DDO who are excellent gamers. The active combat system and the speed is what attracted us to this game in the first place. Thank you DEVS for giving us something else (ES and DS) to twitch over.

QFT, if you think about it a bit, borr. There are other games that follow the D&D rules even more closely, and it sounds like the changes that you need to make you happy might be found there.

Just remember to smile and have a KaTet kind of day! :D!

Borror0
06-14-2008, 02:31 PM
I think you'd be better off playing Barbarians and Clerics!

Barbarians:
Nah, too reliant on healing for me.

Clerics:
Nah... barbarians are too reliant on healing for me. Maybe the next level cap will change that.

You've got to understand that there is not only class strength that enters in the decision of how you'll build your character. I've said it many times in the class forums. A character may be the best one ever, but you mgith not like it. It's for that reason there will always be people rolling paladins and fighters, no matter how gimped they could get.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Putting fighters and paladins under monks? That is the most uninformed, insincere, ridiculously silly thing I have ever seen on these forums.

No, it's not. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1744904&postcount=65)

Gunga
06-14-2008, 02:47 PM
Barbarians:
Nah, too reliant on healing for me.

Clerics:
Nah... barbarians are too reliant on healing for me. Maybe the next level cap will change that.

You've got to understand that there is not only class strength that enters in the decision of how you'll build your character. I've said it many times in the class forums. A character may be the best one ever, but you mgith not like it. It's for that reason there will always be people rolling paladins and fighters, no matter how gimped they could get.

Huh. Maybe, borr, maybe. I really am trying to understand you, really. Could it be that any class could get gimped by operator interference? The way that I see it, a Paladin is quite difficult to make superior. I believe that the devil is in the details when creating a top level pali, several of whom I am proud to know and run with. They aren't here because they are busy being superior to us. :)!

Beherit_Baphomar
06-14-2008, 02:49 PM
I mean seriously DEVS, can we get a little thought put into these things, I know you're a little gun shy after the Barb Crit Rage fiasco, but if you think these are even remotely what the Paladin needs, then you need to quit playing your Dwarf Barb for a bit and try playing a non-Dwarf Paladin for a bit in Gianthold and beyond.

How are they supposed to do that, exactly?

What groups would they get in??

Accelerando
06-14-2008, 02:51 PM
Huh. Maybe, borr, maybe. I really am trying to understand you, really. Could it be that any class could get gimped by operator interference? The way that I see it, a Paladin is quite difficult to make superior. I believe that the devil is in the details when creating a top level pali, several of whom I am proud to know and run with. They aren't here because they are busy being superior to us. :)!

QFT... wait not QFT I am here!
The devil is definately in the details, especially when it comes to piano lessons.

Gunga
06-14-2008, 03:24 PM
I'll explain it once more.

MY problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good, TO ME.
The help that I THINK Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem THAT I SAY THERE IS.



Fixed that for ya there, Angel.

Have a KaTet day! :D!

Coldest
06-14-2008, 04:48 PM
Ok, now back to Palis.

I disagree with the OP. Pali is harder to be great at, but nonetheless, in the right hands they can be great. I like DDO having classes that have a higher difficulty level of learning. Thus, I think Palis are great where they are. Give the fighters a little love maybe, not cuz they are gimp but because they are becoming boring, at least to me.

Love the new enhancement lines. It fits in with what I love about our combat system, real time twitching. I have never taken piano lessons, but after 2.5 years of DDO, yesterday I rapped out Beethoven's 5th perfectly, lol.

Mhykke
06-14-2008, 06:49 PM
in the right hands they can be great.....


I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

Coldest
06-14-2008, 07:59 PM
I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

Understood. And my preferance is too keep them as is. I like that they are challenging to play right, and that they take skills to be great.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 09:04 PM
Understood. And my preferance is too keep them as is. I like that they are challenging to play right, and that they take skills to be great.

I see Accelerando, Gunga and you making that argument, do you guys mind elaborating? How is it a challengge to play a paladin?

Angelus_dead
06-14-2008, 09:44 PM
I see Accelerando, Gunga and you making that argument, do you guys mind elaborating? How is it a challengge to play a paladin?
Well, in one sense it's fairly obvious: to play a weaker character than everyone else is necessarily more challenging, isn't it?

Of course that reply is no reason to keep the class as it is. If a person wants to be "challenged" in that way, he can play fig8/wiz8 or somesuch.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Well, in one sense it's fairly obvious: to play a weaker character than everyone else is necessarily more challenging, isn't it?

I thought that too.. xD

Gunga
06-14-2008, 10:28 PM
Well, in one sense it's fairly obvious: to play a weaker character and get better results than everyone else is more challenging, isn't it?

Of course that reply is no reason to keep the class as it is. If a person wants to be "challenged" in that way, he can play fig8/wiz8 or somesuch.

There ya go, Ang!

:D!

He can also play 16 Paladin, or somesuch!!

Pellegro
06-14-2008, 10:42 PM
Pallys are pretty awesome in both of the new raids.

And if you don't like pally 12-16 (which nets you a number of plusses that you may or may not think are worth it), then multiclass into something else. Too bad that you'll lose out then on the highest level pally stuff when we reach 20.

Its the same issue faced by numerous classes that have dry spots .... You either hang in there for what opens up as a pure class, or you multiclass and close that door.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 10:44 PM
Too bad that you'll lose out then on the highest level pally stuff when we reach 20.

Like?

Jondallar
06-14-2008, 10:56 PM
I see Accelerando, Gunga and you making that argument, do you guys mind elaborating? How is it a challengge to play a paladin?


Not to put words or anything else for that matter:eek: into Accelerando and Gunga's mouths, but I believe what they are saying is that with adquate twitch skills the Paladin is a dominant DPS class in DDO requiring a high skill level to be effective, where as any 17 year old punk that likes old skool metal can run a barbarian and not totally ruin a group.

Paladins require actual finese to play well (so I have heard) and there is a learning curve... where as Barbarians require no skill, simply 1) max strength; then 2)con or dex if twf; 3)hot key rage; 4)turn on auto attack; and 5) whine for heals

The challenge to playing a paladin is that it is fast and furious twitching getting your attacks off and landing them successfully ... the twitch combat system in DDO is one of its strongest points ... therefore the most twitch oriented classes should be considered some of the best classes

Gunga
06-14-2008, 10:59 PM
I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

Hey Mhykke:

How are they contributing less to the group when they are still hitting the boss with a lightning 2 khopesh and the big tough barbarian is laid out, greater commanded, next to him? I think what Accel, Cold and I are saying is that it takes a lot more thought building a Pali than a Barb (Max str and con...), and a lot more thought, and luck (ie grinding) outfitting him with all the right gear to be worth a dam. Then there's the button mashing at just the right time to glean the most from your resources as a pali...

Definately not for everybody, but not necessarily broken, either.

Gunga
06-14-2008, 11:38 PM
I see Accelerando, Gunga and you making that argument, do you guys mind elaborating? How is it a challengge to play a paladin?

Well, borr, if one day you woke up and decided you wanted to be challanged by the game because all of your other toons are already awesome, I could understand why you would go to the bottom of your list when choosing a class, because that class may present the greatest challange for you to play well.

Challange and game kind of go together, especially for sporting types.

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 12:02 AM
I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

And that point is incorrect. In the hands of a weak player, paladins are weak. In the hands of an excellent player, paladins are dominant. This is kind of a difficult thing to wrap ones head around maybe I should make a graph. :D

Gunga
06-15-2008, 12:07 AM
And that point is incorrect. In the hands of a weak player, paladins are weak. In the hands of an excellent player, paladins are dominant. This is kind of a difficult thing to wrap ones head around maybe I should make a graph. :D

Either go to sleep or get in a shroud.

Borror0
06-15-2008, 12:18 AM
The big tough barbarian is laid out, greater commanded, next to him?

Really? Lack of game knowledge. Barbarians have incredible will saves.


I think what Accel, Cold and I are saying is that it takes a lot more thought building a Pali than a Barb (Max str and con...)

Surprisingly, I see people screwing up any build.



And a lot more thought, and luck (ie grinding) outfitting him with all the right gear to be worth a dam.

That's a flaw in the game design, no class should need that much gear to be effective.

A build, yes. A class, no.


Then there's the button mashing at just the right time to glean the most from your resources as a pali...

Actually, a barbarian takes advantage of the twitch skills of the game better than a paladin due to the lack of AC.

If you're talking about Divine Sacrifice, it's an addition of this Module, and a creation of the developers. A bad one on top of it.
Not an argument.


one day you woke up

Thanks for pointing that.

(Grammar mistakes and mis-quoting FTW)

Borror0
06-15-2008, 12:19 AM
The challenge to playing a paladin is that it is fast and furious twitching getting your attacks off and landing them successfully ... the twitch combat system in DDO is one of its strongest points ... therefore the most twitch oriented classes should be considered some of the best classes

Twitch? What twitch is there more in a paladin? Divine Sacrifice? That's all.

Jondallar
06-15-2008, 02:02 AM
Twitch? What twitch is there more in a paladin? Divine Sacrifice? That's all.


Well, Exalted Smite, the big Brother of the ever maligned smite evil (that "no one" can ever get to land) is also twitch. These 2 powerful enhancements add huge DPS to pallies when executed properly, especially DS.

Mhykke
06-15-2008, 02:11 AM
Not to put words or anything else for that matter:eek: into Accelerando and Gunga's mouths, but I believe what they are saying is that with adquate twitch skills the Paladin is a dominant DPS class in DDO requiring a high skill level to be effective, where as any 17 year old punk that likes old skool metal can run a barbarian and not totally ruin a group.

Paladins require actual finese to play well (so I have heard) and there is a learning curve... where as Barbarians require no skill, simply 1) max strength; then 2)con or dex if twf; 3)hot key rage; 4)turn on auto attack; and 5) whine for heals

The challenge to playing a paladin is that it is fast and furious twitching getting your attacks off and landing them successfully ... the twitch combat system in DDO is one of its strongest points ... therefore the most twitch oriented classes should be considered some of the best classes

Jond, I know what you're saying, and it's true to a point.....but at the same time, I've seen plenty of barbs w/ twitch and no twitch and play poorly. You can just rage and autoattack, but the barb who's throwing around stunning blows is doing more damage and taking less damage, the one who's tripping is taking less damage, the one who worked to get his will save up isn't getting owned by every enchantment spell thrown his way. There is quite the bit of skill to being a good barb also.



Hey Mhykke:

How are they contributing less to the group when they are still hitting the boss with a lightning 2 khopesh and the big tough barbarian is laid out, greater commanded, next to him? I think what Accel, Cold and I are saying is that it takes a lot more thought building a Pali than a Barb (Max str and con...), and a lot more thought, and luck (ie grinding) outfitting him with all the right gear to be worth a dam. Then there's the button mashing at just the right time to glean the most from your resources as a pali...

Definately not for everybody, but not necessarily broken, either.

Gunga,
I don't know about you, but my barb has a will save that's pretty decent, in the mid 20's. I don't think we can assume someone built poorly when making these comparisons. The bonus barbs get to will saves from rage usually mean they're hovering at pretty decent will save levels. In fact, if we're in the shroud, barbs are one of the classes I usually put on the gnoll in part 2, b/c of the fact they shouldn't get greater commanded all that much.

I agree w/ you it takes probably more thought, although maybe not a huge amount more, to create a paladin, in today's ddo. But after that, I think you're selling the very good barb players a little short. It's not just a matter of maxing str and swinging their weapon.

And I agree w/ you on the gear. It's a lot of work to get my pally geared up. But if, as you say, it takes a lot of grinding for gear to be worth a damn, that's not really a sign of strength of a class.




And that point is incorrect. In the hands of a weak player, paladins are weak. In the hands of an excellent player, paladins are dominant. This is kind of a difficult thing to wrap ones head around maybe I should make a graph. :D

Yes, that paladin, in the hands of a dominant player over weaker players, would be dominant. But if you cloned that player, and put him in a group of various classes all w/ his skill set, he's not dominating. If we talk all else being equal, including player skill, that paladin isn't dominating over anyone, not in healing, buffing, or dps. And I'd argue defense also (b/c when people claim paladins and defense, they're talking about 1 race with a named item, that has to be multiclassed at least 1 level to make that defense count. The argument that a class is mainly defense goes out the window if it has to be a certain class to achieve that defense and be effective in it.)

Borror0
06-15-2008, 02:18 AM
Well, Exalted Smite, the big Brother of the ever maligned smite evil (that "no one" can ever get to land) is also twitch. These 2 powerful enhancements add huge DPS to pallies when executed properly, especially DS.

Then paladin is not a twitch class. Divine Sacrifice was an addition of this Module, compare that to the 2+ year and you'll se hwta I mean.

As for paladins, most people are annoyed by the way it works. Even Eladrin! So sorry, but paladin is not a twich class. At worse, you could say that paladin has became a twitch class because developers have added an enhancement this module which is hard to trigger but adds DPS and cannot fix Smite Evil to work properly. That's all.

doodooman
06-15-2008, 02:27 AM
"academy training" was the begining of the downfall for pallys, they just nerfed too much to soon and never rebalanced the class.

Borror0
06-15-2008, 02:30 AM
"academy training" was the begining of the downfall for pallys, they just nerfed too much to soon and never rebalanced the class.

QFT!!! By a strange coincidence, that where barbarians got Critical Rage II and Power Attack III.:rolleyes:

Gunga
06-15-2008, 03:43 AM
Really? Lack of game knowledge. Barbarians have incredible will saves.



Surprisingly, I see people screwing up any build.




That's a flaw in the game design, no class should need that much gear to be effective.

A build, yes. A class, no.



Actually, a barbarian takes advantage of the twitch skills of the game better than a paladin due to the lack of AC.

If you're talking about Divine Sacrifice, it's an addition of this Module, and a creation of the developers. A bad one on top of it.
Not an argument.



Thanks for pointing that.

(Grammar mistakes and mis-quoting FTW)

Hey Borr...surprisingly thin coming from a guy like you. :D!

Too tired to help you out with these thoughts here...see ya tomorrow.

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 03:44 AM
Yes, that paladin, in the hands of a dominant player over weaker players, would be dominant. But if you cloned that player, and put him in a group of various classes all w/ his skill set, he's not dominating. If we talk all else being equal, including player skill, that paladin isn't dominating over anyone, not in healing, buffing, or dps. And I'd argue defense also (b/c when people claim paladins and defense, they're talking about 1 race with a named item, that has to be multiclassed at least 1 level to make that defense count. The argument that a class is mainly defense goes out the window if it has to be a certain class to achieve that defense and be effective in it.)

Dammit Mhykke you don't seem to get what I am saying. Therefore I have made you this graph.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2656/supergraphzq9.jpg

Hvymetal
06-15-2008, 04:09 AM
There ya go, Ang!

:D!

He can also play 16 Paladin, or somesuch!!

Now show some proof that that character is indeed played better than any other.......

So far I have seen some really poor arguments from a few people here claiming that this Pally is better than everyone else, claiming that anyone that can't make a decent Paladin is because they are gimp, ect. ect. without any facts to back up their claims or arguments, and then acting rather childishly and throwing around insults (well 1 person at least). So got some facts, data, proof to back up your claims? Anything?

GlassCannon
06-15-2008, 05:04 AM
Well, in one sense it's fairly obvious: to play a weaker character than everyone else is necessarily more challenging, isn't it?

Comes natural.

What, this game is supposed to be easy?



There is a whole guild of such talented individuals on Mabar(the one people still mistakenly call Argonessen). To name them violates the forum guidelines that I often tend to ignore due to sleep deprived delirium.

GlassCannon
06-15-2008, 05:07 AM
Are not overpowered.


Some other classes are unbalanced in certain ways, which in most parties leaves a void. A Bard, attentive Cleric, and dutiful Caster type can easily fill said voids quite nicely, but in some cases are required for success for certain classes and builds. No, I am not going to numbercrunch to prove myself right. This is not a courtroom and I will not work like it is one.

Venar
06-15-2008, 06:40 AM
I couldn't disagree more with your top 10.
It looks like your main classification depends on the Shroud. Common pigeonholing. Just like when people decide upon builds, dps, weapons, all based on the shroud.

Me, my critecrias to select what class needs help is different.

1. Clerics.
This class needs huge, huge help. Have you look at the LFM lately? Everyone needs clerics. Nobody can find clerics. Why? Because no one wants to play them. How is that for needing help? A costly scroll-bot is just not fun, and yet, that is all a cleric does in a Raid...

2. Bards.
Bards are awesome? Oh right, they sing, and then try not to die on their gimp HPs.

3. Casters.
If casters are so hot, why do people only bring 1 on each raid? Wow. 2 casters class, and yet you only need 1 for Hound/Devil/Shroud. Also, casters are good... as long as they have SPs. Now, a Devil Raid lasts about 30 minutes, so, that's 10 hastes, plus GH and Resist on everyone. Cool. There goes your wizard SP bar.


Back to Paladins.
You keep hating Divine Sacrifice. News flash, but 1 LoH can get me 20+ divine sacrifices. Not only that, but on places like the Shroud part 2-4-5, if Mass Heals are used, then you can spam it non-stop, because the mass heals will easily cover the -10 HP.

Luthen
06-15-2008, 10:48 AM
Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

To many variables here to even bother. First of all lets assume you're ignoring the ability to multi-class. That being said what is YOUR basis for rating them? DPS? Utility? Ability to Heal? Ability to Survive? All of the above? Melees only? Casters only? Split into groups? Hybrid classes vs pure classes?

I will take my "Rogue" up against just about anyone else. But then again he isn't your average Rogue build either. Same goes for Madmardigan my cleric. But then again not the standard cleric build. I recently built a Paladin named Halbarad Procerus. He's only level 8 but can land a smite crit for 203 on the first number with a +2 Holy of PG khopesh (best so far) and a 22 Str. Now sure he won't have the best DPS all around at high end. Then again tweaked builds are your best bet for Min/Max at the high levels as far as melee goes. Everyone seems set that melee DPS is the end all be all of melee classes. I disagree. I would take slightly above average DPS and great utility with some built in burst DPS vs. certain enemies then just straight out Excellent DPS.

TWF Barbarian with twin Deathnips is a tough DPS combo to beat. But they're a one trick pony. That's almost always all they can do. But that's their role. A Paladin does so much more then melee DPS, and a Paladin built right in the right hands is downright awsome. So it's all based on your P.O.V. guys. Keep pushing for bigger and better but don't state that Paladin's are under powered. If you think that then you're probably doing something wrong.;)

Jondallar
06-15-2008, 01:06 PM
Then paladin is not a twitch class. Divine Sacrifice was an addition of this Module, compare that to the 2+ year and you'll se hwta I mean.

As for paladins, most people are annoyed by the way it works. Even Eladrin! So sorry, but paladin is not a twich class. At worse, you could say that paladin has became a twitch class because developers have added an enhancement this module which is hard to trigger but adds DPS and cannot fix Smite Evil to work properly. That's all.

Pre - Mod7

all combat in ddo is twitch add to it the staple melee tools of Trip, sunder, cleave *great cleave, *impr trip, *stunning blow
* these twitch feats may or may notbe chosen for paladins which often use other feats

In addition Paladins to be effective need to use the following twitch skills:

Divine Favor (extremely important to keep running which many players do not do after initial use)

Smite Evil (difficult for novice/weaker players to land) 3-8 per rest


After mod 7

all of the above plus

Divine Sacrifice

Exalted Smite (3-8 per rest using smite evil charges, recharging 1/90 seconds)


I may be mistaken but the way I see it there is more twitch involved in playing a paladin, and it is even more so in the new mod with very effective new burst DPS enhancements. This must be as designed, because it is a continueing trend in paladin developement. So just like in pnp the paladin is a difficult class to play and not for everyone.

HumanJHawkins
06-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Please, rank from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

K, I'm doing this at the end game level... To do this right, you would have to make a seperate list at every class level. For example, at 1st level, Fighter beats everything. At 8th, Sorc. Etc.

Also, I am assuming good but not perfect builds... You can't expect everyone to not make a single mistake here or there, and you can't expect them to have +3 tomes and all raid loot. However, because crafting some serious uber shroud loot is easy, I do assum a player has shroud loot at their disposal.

At 16th, with the current content:

1. Sorc, Cleric, Barbarian, Ranger (All tied, depending on circumstances)
2. Fighter, Bard (through buffs to others), Wizard, Rogue
3. Paladin

I have no idea whar Monk fits in.

And, finally, I think a near perfectly built Fighter11/Pally5 AC build Dwarf with a Mineral II DAxe could be tied for first with Sorcs, etc. (Which is why I am building one. :-)

Cheers!

Inspire
06-15-2008, 01:25 PM
I will take my "Rogue" up against just about anyone else.

Ill Take That Challenge, Bashful, 13Rog/3Pal Look Me Up.


TWF Barbarian with twin Deathnips is a tough DPS combo to beat. But they're a one trick pony. That's almost always all they can do. But that's their role. A Paladin does so much more then melee DPS, and a Paladin built right in the right hands is downright awsome. So it's all based on your P.O.V. guys. Keep pushing for bigger and better but don't state that Paladin's are under powered. If you think that then you're probably doing something wrong.;)

Yep, Pearce My Dual Deathnip Barbie Is A 1 Trick Pony...

13-20 W/P Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Banishing Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Smiting Rapiers (x2 - 1 Transmuting:D)

I Agree... Paladins Are Great Fun To Play, IMO Of Course. But He Will NEVER Out Dps Woad Or Come Close To Pearce, Even With +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh With PA, However Thats Not How I Built Him.

I Will Say The New Shield/Bracers Combo Is Awesome In Generating Hate, If You Land A Critical Smite, You Can Gaurentee That Even Boss Mobs Will Be Agro'd On You, So You Can Turtle Up With That Nice 25DR:D While Other Melee/Casters Try To Keep Up, Unless You With An Intimi-Tank.

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 02:46 PM
Pre - Mod7

all combat in ddo is twitch add to it the staple melee tools of Trip, sunder, cleave *great cleave, *impr trip, *stunning blow
* these twitch feats may or may notbe chosen for paladins which often use other feats

In addition Paladins to be effective need to use the following twitch skills:

Divine Favor (extremely important to keep running which many players do not do after initial use)

Smite Evil (difficult for novice/weaker players to land) 3-8 per rest


After mod 7

all of the above plus

Divine Sacrifice

Exalted Smite (3-8 per rest using smite evil charges, recharging 1/90 seconds)


I may be mistaken but the way I see it there is more twitch involved in playing a paladin, and it is even more so in the new mod with very effective new burst DPS enhancements. This must be as designed, because it is a continueing trend in paladin developement. So just like in pnp the paladin is a difficult class to play and not for everyone.
QFT
This is why Jon's gimp halfling avenger still kicks azz. He gets its. Paladin has always and always will be a twitch class. If
you don't play it this way of course you will complain about it being broken or underpowered. lol

Accelerando
06-15-2008, 02:49 PM
Yep, Pearce My Dual Deathnip Barbie Is A 1 Trick Pony...

13-20 W/P Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Banishing Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Smiting Rapiers (x2 - 1 Transmuting:D)



Still a one trick pony, just with different dressing. Hold down attack button... wait for mob death. Lots of fun in an active combat system. :D

Inspire
06-15-2008, 02:51 PM
Still a one trick pony, just with different dressing. Hold down attack button... wait for mob death. Lots of fun in an active combat system. :D

I Guess Every Melee Class Is A One Trick Pony If You Look At It Like That:D

hannika
06-15-2008, 03:03 PM
I
2. Bards.
Bards are awesome? Oh right, they sing, and then try not to die on their gimp HPs.




hehehehehehehe ....sorry. don't mean to inturrupt your paly argument. just. *sputters* HAHAHAHAHA.

you can continue arguing now, it's fun.

Borror0
06-15-2008, 03:07 PM
I'm in a quest right now, so I'm just going to requote the OP. :)


Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

Luthen
06-15-2008, 07:58 PM
Ill Take That Challenge, Bashful, 13Rog/3Pal Look Me Up.



Yep, Pearce My Dual Deathnip Barbie Is A 1 Trick Pony...

13-20 W/P Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Banishing Rapiers (x2)
13-20 Smiting Rapiers (x2 - 1 Transmuting:D)

I Agree... Paladins Are Great Fun To Play, IMO Of Course. But He Will NEVER Out Dps Woad Or Come Close To Pearce, Even With +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh With PA, However Thats Not How I Built Him.

I Will Say The New Shield/Bracers Combo Is Awesome In Generating Hate, If You Land A Critical Smite, You Can Gaurentee That Even Boss Mobs Will Be Agro'd On You, So You Can Turtle Up With That Nice 25DR:D While Other Melee/Casters Try To Keep Up, Unless You With An Intimi-Tank.


To respond to this. I think we're in agreement. A Barb of that sort can kill faster and better then most anything. But that's all he does. He pumps out insane DPS or kills stuff fast. Paladin's do that to an appropriately lesser degree but then are capable of doing much much more. People need to stop thinking of every melee class needing to be the best DPS over any other. They all have their roles. Stop trying to make them all the same.

eonfreon
06-15-2008, 09:07 PM
I've rolled my first pure pally (so far- only lvl 8- so who knows what'll happen) for the first time in the year and a half that I've been playing. It always seemed like a hard class to get right with all the different stats needed and such.
I started with Rogues and Wizards and Rangers cause that was my PnP D&D style way back when I used to play. Slowly I created more toons and tried different stuff. My first fighter attempt was decent but not very uber- got him to 15 then barely ever played him. My first fighter multiclass though I did add some levels of Pally and really enjoyed it. Of course I much preferred my Barb for his simplicity in setup- and even he I multiclassed with 1 lvl ranger just cause I was tired of being unable to heal others. I am a big fan of multiclassing. Eventually I deleted that 11/1 Barb and created my favorite toon from what I learned- a ftr/barb/ranger 12/2/1 with OTWF, Improv Crit Slash and Improv Crit Pierce. He is a blast to play and is very self-sufficient.
But anyway, I've found this and other threads very interesting. I don't find them as whining for the most part. Few people say that they don't have fun nor play their Pally's here, leastways not the ones who are trying to improve the class, although there does appear to be the occasional person with the "yeah they suck that's why I don't play them or allow them in my group" mentality that is rather unneccessary, but for the most part both sides of the argument play and enjoy their Pally's and have good points and ideas. Many things I do disagree with, but many others I do like.
Particularly, I disagree with Borr's idea for treating Smites as a sort of "buff", waiting to activate on the next attack. Yes, the learning curve on using the twitch abilities of Pally's and Fighter's is steep- especially learning to watch the Mob animations and time it just right and also hold back until your second connecting attack before attempting a special move, and Borr's concept has some merit, but I enjoyed even the frustration of completing missing with my attack, and improving my skill in using it.
And I agree that they aren't meant to be the DPS machines that Barb's are (although looking at the numbers I don't think they should fall so far behind as they do either).
But I don't see many people saying that anyway. Mostly, I've seen people point out that they need more things that make them unique. They need better Spells, and there's a better thread about it also created by Borr- although with the stretching of needed stats I can see it being tough to be much of a spellcaster without sacrificing alot to get those spellpoints up.
I've truly enjoyed reading these debates and I have my own opinions about the class and multiclassing in general and I see little wrong with a Pure class being outshined by a Multiclass- but other's obviously feel different.
This post has been long enough so I won't go into the specifics of my opinions here. But as I reread many post's, I see that this has begun to degenerate into a "you must suck if you can't play your Pally right" mudslinging. And that's a shame. Because I doubt very much that anyone on these forums really "suck" at playing any class. Yes, skills differ and I don't much subscribe to the idea that an extremely skilled player will be the best at all classes, and a person that plays an awesome Palladin will automatically play an awesome Sorcerer or Barbarian. A lot of the game is based on your taste. I am pretty darn good on my Wizard, but I'm bored to tears when I play a Sorcerer, and therefore don't play him as well as my Wizard. Why? Because I enjoy the variety of spells and picking my spells for the right situation. Even with the disparity of Mana, I don't feel bothered by Sorcerers power, and enjoy being in a group where the Sorc's blasting away and I'm doing my more subtle buffing, debuffing and crowd control tactics.
Anyway, argue on, because I'm enjoying the ideas being tossed around, but let's stop with the name-calling and just state your ideas, whether they are pro or con to the changes. Let's keep the ideas coming.

Gunga
06-15-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm in a quest right now, so I'm just going to requote the OP. :)

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine TO ME.

There ya go Borr...that saves me from having to go through your not so solid arguments from late last night. :)

Borror0
06-15-2008, 11:28 PM
There ya go Borr...that saves me from having to go through your not so solid arguments from late last night. :)

You know, if you don't want to argue... then don't post. No?

Borror0
06-15-2008, 11:38 PM
They all have their roles. Stop trying to make them all the same.

Really? Have you read my suggestions (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)?

So, am I really trying to make them all the same? :confused:

The point of this thread, in case you've all missed it, is to tell those who keep arguing with me that I don't get why they are. To me, paladins are the weakest class along fighters. In the case of fighters, Turbine has already stated that we would soon see more combat feats. That pretty much the way to help fighters, so there is not much more to do until we see what they have in store.

So, why arguing?

Do you think that paladin is one of the top class? Because, you know, Turbine is always going to create feats, spells and enhancements every Module. It's just a matter of what class they'll target. Obviously, they'll try to improve the weakest, rather than the strongest to bring balance rather than to create imbalance.

So, if you're here arguing with me, then list me by strength the classes and explain me your three weakests, and why. You can rgue me on the strong points of the paladin all you want, but you're not making much sense. At worse, you're proving me that a paladin is not gimped. I already knew that. What you need to prove me, is that besides monks and fighters, there are classes weaker than a paladin.

Thank you.

Inspire
06-15-2008, 11:43 PM
My Paladin Is Uber, He Makes Barbarians Jealous And The Women Swoon...


*Note* I Hope No Barbarians Read This As My Paladin May Be On The Wrong End Of A Drastic Arse Whoopin'

Borror0
06-15-2008, 11:51 PM
It looks like your main classification depends on the Shroud. Common pigeonholing.

Really?

You're the one who mentions clerics being scroll-bots in raids and mentions the "too short" SP pool of wizards bersus the Devil. I refer to six-man quests much more than you did.


1. Clerics.
This class needs huge, huge help. Have you look at the LFM lately? Everyone needs clerics. Nobody can find clerics. Why? Because no one wants to play them. How is that for needing help? A costly scroll-bot is just not fun, and yet, that is all a cleric does in a Raid...

Have you looked at my analysis?



If there are any complaints about clerics, it's most likely a complaint about how healing dependant melee classes are in this game. As soon as you enter melee range, the damage climb up. Of course, high DPS melee characters will shorten the time it takes to complete a quest, but a full group of clerics will take less resources in completing any quest. Slower, probably, but less expensive for sure. Hopefuly, Heal, Mass will help with that issue.

The problem is that melee classes need too much healing, not that clerics are underpowered.


2. Bards.
Bards are awesome? Oh right, they sing, and then try not to die on their gimp HPs.

I can't reply to that, you lack understanding of the class.

Although I slightly agree, Toughness enhancements are bad for the gam.


3. Casters.
If casters are so hot, why do people only bring 1 on each raid? Wow. 2 casters class, and yet you only need 1 for Hound/Devil/Shroud. Also, casters are good... as long as they have SPs. Now, a Devil Raid lasts about 30 minutes, so, that's 10 hastes, plus GH and Resist on everyone. Cool. There goes your wizard SP bar.

One for Hound or Devil??

If you only want one for the Hound, you've missed something about the raid.

As for the wizard? I said they were alright, but that mostly it's level 9 spells that will help them. Any attempt at fixing them until level 9 spells are out would probably end up being a waste effort. If I'd work at Turbine, I'd not want to get into this as I'm developing the level 9 spells.

As for the Devil, debuffing helps a Ton in there. That's a wizards' strength.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 12:19 AM
Overall, very nice post. :)


Borr's concept has some merit, but I enjoyed even the frustration of completing missing with my attack, and improving my skill in using it.

This is the part I disagree with.

I, like most people here, love the twitch aspect of the game!! I like jumping around, avoiding stuff, I love the fast pace, etc. I don't mind using tons of hotkeys for many abilities, potinos, clickies, Intimidate, weapons, whatever! That's not what bothers me. If anyone thinks that I'm complaining that I got to press a button too often, then maybe that person should consider the fact that my main is an intimitank that spams Intimidate every six seconds and Cleave and Great Cleave as soon as they get cooldowns is over.

That's is not the problem.

The problem is that pressing that hotkey on our hotbar doesn't trigger the ability too well. Most time than others, when I want to land a smite, I've got to continuously press until it records it. That's what I'm complaining about. At least like that you could hold auto-attack on and press Smite Evil... to se it land at your next swing rather than having to press your hotkey until it happens.

I see a lot of people thinking I'm asking for an easy button, but I don't see how it removes your chances to miss a Smite Evil. Your next swing is a Smite, if the mob has moved since then... in the air. There are still chances for failure. They are lower than now, but the point is that the current system is buggy.

Venar
06-16-2008, 12:21 AM
As for the Devil, debuffing helps a Ton in there. That's a wizards' strength.

Yes, one wizard.

And yes, we only bring, on our now regular elite runs, only 1 caster.

Oh, and as for bards, i oversimplified the class in 1 sentence, i'm not here to write a manual on bards. I know they do many things, but the stat spread, along with a role of "do everything ok but nothing ubber" really doesnt make it fun when you combine one the lowest HP class in the game. Of course, my sorc has less HP then my bard, but he can also kill 100 times faster.
Bards rarely achieve high HP, high AC, evasion, SR, DR, fast killing, or anything that increase survivablity.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 12:25 AM
Bards rarely achieve high HP, high AC, evasion, SR, DR, fast killing, or anything that increase survivablity.

Ever seen a dwarven warchanter?

If you're on Thelanis, ever played with Zhaffini?

Inspire
06-16-2008, 12:39 AM
Bards rarely achieve high HP, high AC, evasion, SR, DR, fast killing, or anything that increase survivablity.

Lets Take A Raid For Example, We'll Go With The Shroud As That Is What Most People Go To... Bards Bring 8-10Extra Damage Per Swing To The Tanks, If You Take 4Tanks And 3Rangers (3Clerics 1Bard 1Caster As Others) Thats 54-70 Extra Damage Per Swing/Shot And I Assume x3 Crit Multiplier Aswell. I Guess That Makes Things Go Slower In A Quest, Perhaps Thier Ability To Buff The Entire Party With Everything But Resists And Deathward Would Be A Bad Thing Too Because That 1Caster In Your Group Will Do It All For You, And Still Have Enough Mana To FoD/Pk All Those Gnolls By Himself And Set Up CC For Those Devils And Have Enough Left Over After That To Haste/Rage Toss Fire Protection On The Tanks And When Its Getting Close To The Win, Do A 300Cone Of Cold On The Fiend...

Bards Also Bring CC For Those Devils When Your Not Fighting The Fiend, And While Hes At It He Can Re-Haste/Rage/And Do Those Songs Again...

Bards Do Not Increase Survivability At All Your Correct, I Will Now Exclude Them From My Lfms... Along With Paladins/Rogues/Rangers/Fighters/And Wizards, Cause All You Need In There Is 7Barbarians 4Clerics And 1Sorc! Whoot!

Gunga
06-16-2008, 12:44 AM
You know, if you don't want to argue... then don't post. No?

Nah, there's plenty of reasons to post besides argue. It's nice to discuss different ideas and maybe even poke fun at each other, but I'm married...I don't need to come here to argue. :eek:

Accelerando
06-16-2008, 12:49 AM
Yes, one wizard.

And yes, we only bring, on our now regular elite runs, only 1 caster.

Oh, and as for bards, i oversimplified the class in 1 sentence, i'm not here to write a manual on bards. I know they do many things, but the stat spread, along with a role of "do everything ok but nothing ubber" really doesnt make it fun when you combine one the lowest HP class in the game. Of course, my sorc has less HP then my bard, but he can also kill 100 times faster.
Bards rarely achieve high HP, high AC, evasion, SR, DR, fast killing, or anything that increase survivablity.

How about a 60 AC self buffed, self haste/displacement/stoneskin/rage/healing/only miss on a 1/5 dr?

How about buffing/debuffing/ccing/rezzing/charming/facinating?

Bards are superior.

Yes HPs are low, but who cares with all those extra goodies?

Gunga
06-16-2008, 12:51 AM
I've rolled my first pure pally (so far- only lvl 8- so who knows what'll happen) for the first time in the year and a half that I've been playing. It always seemed like a hard class to get right with all the different stats needed and such.
I started with Rogues and Wizards and Rangers cause that was my PnP D&D style way back when I used to play. Slowly I created more toons and tried different stuff. My first fighter attempt was decent but not very uber- got him to 15 then barely ever played him. My first fighter multiclass though I did add some levels of Pally and really enjoyed it. Of course I much preferred my Barb for his simplicity in setup- and even he I multiclassed with 1 lvl ranger just cause I was tired of being unable to heal others. I am a big fan of multiclassing. Eventually I deleted that 11/1 Barb and created my favorite toon from what I learned- a ftr/barb/ranger 12/2/1 with OTWF, Improv Crit Slash and Improv Crit Pierce. He is a blast to play and is very self-sufficient.
But anyway, I've found this and other threads very interesting. I don't find them as whining for the most part. Few people say that they don't have fun nor play their Pally's here, leastways not the ones who are trying to improve the class, although there does appear to be the occasional person with the "yeah they suck that's why I don't play them or allow them in my group" mentality that is rather unneccessary, but for the most part both sides of the argument play and enjoy their Pally's and have good points and ideas. Many things I do disagree with, but many others I do like.
Particularly, I disagree with Borr's idea for treating Smites as a sort of "buff", waiting to activate on the next attack. Yes, the learning curve on using the twitch abilities of Pally's and Fighter's is steep- especially learning to watch the Mob animations and time it just right and also hold back until your second connecting attack before attempting a special move, and Borr's concept has some merit, but I enjoyed even the frustration of completing missing with my attack, and improving my skill in using it.
And I agree that they aren't meant to be the DPS machines that Barb's are (although looking at the numbers I don't think they should fall so far behind as they do either).
But I don't see many people saying that anyway. Mostly, I've seen people point out that they need more things that make them unique. They need better Spells, and there's a better thread about it also created by Borr- although with the stretching of needed stats I can see it being tough to be much of a spellcaster without sacrificing alot to get those spellpoints up.
I've truly enjoyed reading these debates and I have my own opinions about the class and multiclassing in general and I see little wrong with a Pure class being outshined by a Multiclass- but other's obviously feel different.
This post has been long enough so I won't go into the specifics of my opinions here. But as I reread many post's, I see that this has begun to degenerate into a "you must suck if you can't play your Pally right" mudslinging. And that's a shame. Because I doubt very much that anyone on these forums really "suck" at playing any class. Yes, skills differ and I don't much subscribe to the idea that an extremely skilled player will be the best at all classes, and a person that plays an awesome Palladin will automatically play an awesome Sorcerer or Barbarian. A lot of the game is based on your taste. I am pretty darn good on my Wizard, but I'm bored to tears when I play a Sorcerer, and therefore don't play him as well as my Wizard. Why? Because I enjoy the variety of spells and picking my spells for the right situation. Even with the disparity of Mana, I don't feel bothered by Sorcerers power, and enjoy being in a group where the Sorc's blasting away and I'm doing my more subtle buffing, debuffing and crowd control tactics.
Anyway, argue on, because I'm enjoying the ideas being tossed around, but let's stop with the name-calling and just state your ideas, whether they are pro or con to the changes. Let's keep the ideas coming.

Listen, there are some basically good ideas here but let's not go overboard and ask to stop the name-calling. You're just diluting the impact of your good ideas with this trash.

Vormaerin
06-16-2008, 04:22 AM
Vorm, wanna something ironic? You are the one who say that some of us are too aggressive, but you come down here and knock on us. What you're doing seems, at best, to be like waving a steak in front of a dog that has been starving for days. You should try to understand our point of view a little, and you'll see why we say those spells are useless.

[/B]

You notice I'm not talking in your other thread, which is just fine? This is the thread you started to tell the rest of us that tons of quotes gpk, geonis, and others have made in multiple threads are not your point. I understand that you want things to help the paladin at end game. I understand that these additions don't do that. I also understand, mostly, that AC is so screwed right now that most anything you do to add to it is probably going to mess up as much as it helps.

But this thread is a whinge about other posters' attitudes and their responses to the polemical nature of some of the paladins need help posts. This isn't your helpful suggestion thread. If I was over trolling your suggestions thread, I'd maybe agree with your comment here.

So yeah, I'm knocking on the style of posts made by some folks, because that's what this thread is about. And because I think that it makes it less likely that anything good will be achieved by the threads such posts occur in. When the posts accuse the devs or fellow players of incompetence or idiocy, when they make histrionic assertions that let folks knockdown the exaggeration instead of address the actual point, and generally are just rude and obnoxious then the dev response that is going to occur is more often the Cube than Eladrin.

Most of these "paladins are fine" posts are reacting to equally bogus "paladins are useless" posts. As you've pointed out, neither is true. I'd really like to know why the Turn undead substitution feats aren't being implemented. I'd like to know what these paladin prestige classes they've hinted at are going to look like. I'd like to know more about this holy avenger quest that was mentioned. And I'd like to know why they are strengthening the paladin in the level range where they are already a dominant class rather than at the upper end where they are bottom tier.

I don't think any of those questions are going to be answered in threads full of dev bashing and hysteria. And I think claiming there's no dev bashing or hysteria going on (as the OP seemed to imply) is disingenuous. Your other thread is great. This one, not so much. Just my opinion.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 05:03 AM
And because I think that it makes it less likely that anything good will be achieved by the threads such posts occur in. When the posts accuse the devs or fellow players of incompetence or idiocy, when they make histrionic assertions that let folks knockdown the exaggeration instead of address the actual point, and generally are just rude and obnoxious then the dev response that is going to occur is more often the Cube than Eladrin.

Don't you think I know that? Don't you think that we know that very well?

Look at this thread, and dare tell me who is trolling! Is it the one who try to change things? Or it it the ones who insults other based on their twitch skills, saying that if you don't like Divine Sacrifice it's because you're a poor player with no skills and that you're simply no close to be as ber as them?

Let me tell one thing, don't drag past into that. Look at how we act now, and you'll see it's much better.

It's all that matters.


Most of these "paladins are fine" posts are reacting to equally bogus "paladins are useless" posts. As you've pointed out, neither is true.

Actually, I don't see many of these "paladins are useless" posts.

Well, I see some of them, but they are oddball comments, rather the majority. Heck, the most blunt posters I can think of is gpk, and I have not seen him say anything remotely close to it. I think it's rather that a lot of people cannot stand hearing that the class they like most is weaker. and then, you have oddballs like Gunga and Accelerando who thinks that paladfins are overpowered, but really, I fail to see where anyone actively said paladins are useless.

Most posts about paladins are to improve the class, from people that play paladins, it'd be ironic for them to say paladins are owrthless, eh?


I don't think any of those questions are going to be answered in threads full of dev bashing and hysteria. And I think claiming there's no dev bashing or hysteria going on (as the OP seemed to imply) is disingenuous. Your other thread is great. This one, not so much.

Actually, I sort of forseen that thread to be the mess it is.

That was the point, as to keep all the negative posts off the other one. Heck, there is a link in the OP of the other saying that, if think paladins don't need help, come whine at that thread. Why? Because I want a flame-free thread. This thread was directed to anyone who tried to argue with me that if they wanted to keep arguing with me, they would have to tell me paladins are one of the top most powerful classes in the game right now, from now on. Because that is the only reason to argue me!

I'm sick and tired of these "paladin are fin but they need love", that is a statement that makes no sense. If something is fine, it does not need attention. The right way to say it is more like "paladin are playable, but they are in need of some love because thy are clearly lacking behined most classes".

I have challenged any one in that thread to tell who needs attention most, and I have yet to see anyone challenge me.

What I'm seeing, is posters feeling like insulting others and bragging about their uber skillz.

Serpent
06-16-2008, 05:27 AM
Listen, there are some basically good ideas here but let's not go overboard and ask to stop the name-calling. You're just diluting the impact of your good ideas with this trash.

Pot, Kettle, Black

On a side note,

What A_D has pointed out about level 12+ being the wastelands of paladins is very observant imo. Those specific levels really need a boost that sets the paladin's abilities apart from other classes. Note: I said apart not overpowered. All in all paladin's are a decent class that are on the verge of being truly great with jsut a little actual help instead of a pitiful enhancement overhaul.

Vormaerin
06-16-2008, 05:40 AM
Well, I haven't bragged about my uber skills or said that paladins were fine at endgame and I'll grant that Geonis and Gpk are mellower in recent posts than say, a couple weeks ago. But even you felt it necessary to suggest that they don't dev bash in this very thread.

I guess I don't know what to say about the "don't bring up past posting" comment, since that is what this whole thread is about. The older paladin discussion threads devolved into shouting matches between guys screaming on both sides of the issue. Your post here just says "hey, none of 'our' screaming reflects our actual opinion and all of 'you' should stop screaming about our screaming."

I haven't actually read the last few pages of this topic, because it looked like it melted so I didn't bother after finding your replies to my previous posts.

If the point of this thread is supposed to be "hey, we are trying to calm down the discussion, please join us" that's cool. But the OP sounded like you were putting all the toxicity on the opposition, which I don't think is the case. You also seem to be acting like I'm in opposition to your views, which I'm not. I just have a quarrel with how some folks are expressing the problems with the paladin and with the new things the devs are putting in place for them. I don't know why the devs keep adding interesting things for the paladins at mid levels when the need is at high levels. But saying they are "worthless" when you mean "doesn't address the issues I'm raising" or the claiming the devs are incompetent are counter productive, imho.

Anyway, I've made my point as best I can and don't see much point in continuing to repeat it. Particularly since neither you nor I are the posters doing the things that are raising each other's ire as far as I can tell. Good luck with the suggestions thread. I hope it stays civil and actually garners some responses from the devs. Because I'd like to hear it.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 06:01 AM
I haven't bragged about my uber skills or said that paladins were fine at endgame

I wasn't refering to you either.

I don't know what to say about the "don't bring up past posting" comment, since that is what this whole thread is about.

Well, bringing issues from previous threads is against the forum guidlines...:rolleyes:


The older paladin discussion threads devolved into shouting matches between guys screaming on both sides of the issue. Your post here just says "hey, none of 'our' screaming reflects our actual opinion and all of 'you' should stop screaming about our screaming."

My post is "You are getting us wrong, we don't say X, we're saying Y. We're on the same side!"


I haven't actually read the last few pages of this topic, because it looked like it melted so I didn't bother after finding your replies to my previous posts.

Read the replies to my post on #66. You'll see what I mean...


You also seem to be acting like I'm in opposition to your views, which I'm not.

I know that, but there is no point in coming down here and saying "You guys were too rude in the past"

It's just putting oil in the fire. Nothing good will come out of it.


But saying they are "worthless" when you mean "doesn't address the issues I'm raising" or the claiming the devs are incompetent are counter productive, imho.

Atually, the spells they are adding are near worthless. Or at least, Lionheart and Zeal

Saying so is like saying Ooze Puppet is useless. Not totally useless, but damn close to. The fact is that paaladins have issues, and that Eladrin comes into a quest with specific requests... and he lists us three spells that don't adresss the issue at all. You got to understand that what Eladrin did was unavoidably making the situation worse.

Heck, he could have told us why these spells were chosen, rather than being silent.

I think we would be more understanding if we'd know what is his point of view on the issue.

Luthen
06-16-2008, 09:41 AM
Really? Have you read my suggestions (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149994)?

So, am I really trying to make them all the same? :confused:

The point of this thread, in case you've all missed it, is to tell those who keep arguing with me that I don't get why they are. To me, paladins are the weakest class along fighters. In the case of fighters, Turbine has already stated that we would soon see more combat feats. That pretty much the way to help fighters, so there is not much more to do until we see what they have in store.

So, why arguing?

Do you think that paladin is one of the top class? Because, you know, Turbine is always going to create feats, spells and enhancements every Module. It's just a matter of what class they'll target. Obviously, they'll try to improve the weakest, rather than the strongest to bring balance rather than to create imbalance.

So, if you're here arguing with me, then list me by strength the classes and explain me your three weakests, and why. You can rgue me on the strong points of the paladin all you want, but you're not making much sense. At worse, you're proving me that a paladin is not gimped. I already knew that. What you need to prove me, is that besides monks and fighters, there are classes weaker than a paladin.

Thank you.

Wow... everything about your post is bass ackwards Bor. The title implies Pallies MIGHT be overpowered (maby not what you meant it to but there it is anyway). The highlighted comment has you wanting us to "prove" something to you which contradicts the title. You've already decided Monks are inferior. You claim that you know Paladin's are not gimped, which contradicts your desire to have Turbine boost them to bring them in line with other melee abilities. I have, pretty much, always followed your logic on many a topic Bor. This time around though you're not being 100% clear. lots of contrary opinions and conflicting statements and what seems to either be sarcasm or a very warped perception.


So, if you're here arguing with me, then list me by strength the classes and explain me your three weakests, and why.

Lets take this topic. You base your assumption on the predication that everyone shares the same idea of "strengths". Your view, as it looks in your responses, is that a classes "strength" needs to focus on kill count and DPS. That's a very narrow point of view. I will, however, try to list strengths by class and weaknesses by class based on my point of view. I'd like to see you do that same.

Paladin: Strengths
Saves (Resistances)
Buffing
Group Support/Enhancing spell selection
High AC
Great for multi-class splashing (2-3 lvls for a melee build, or 1 lvl for a cleric build, etc.)
Support healer
Excellent utility/versatility (Enhancments allow for excess LoH, Rez ability, Undead DPS, group enhancment via paladin aura)
Survivability


Paladin: Weaknesses
Limited access to feats
Requires high numbers in almost every stat to optimize
Moderate DPS



Fighter: Strengths
Feats
Hit points
Weapon/Armor Selection
Great for splashing in melee builds (mostly)

Fighter: Weaknesses
Limited versatility
No utility (spells, abilities to support group)
Vanilla class (Only meant to do one thing)
Moderate DPS

Barbarian: Strengths
Hit points
High DPS
Run speed
Stat damaging machine
Improved Crit range


Barbarian: Weaknesses
They hit things
Dependant on weapon selection
Poor AC
Limited versatlity and utility
Often (not always) squishy

Rogue: Strengths
High, situational, DPS
Excellent splash class
Excellent versatility (with use of UMD)
Improved Evasion
Lots of skill points

Rogue: Weaknesses
Poor hit points
DPS limited to Backstabbing (usually unless Str based)
Limited, effective, weapon selection

Ranger: Strengths
Evasion
Tempest Enhancment
Favored Enemies (bonus with enhancments)
Support spell selection
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Good for splashing into 2WF builds
Run speed boost
Self sufficiant at most levels

Ranger: Weaknesses
Limited spell selection
Moderate to Low hit points
Ranged DPS is low without Many Shot
Typically needs to remain Dex based

Bard: Strengths
Excellent support buffs
Support healer
Versatility (via UMD)
Excellent haggle ability
Excellent crowd control

Bard: Weaknesses
Weak DPS
Low Hit points
Limited Spell selection
Limited feats

Cleric: Strengths
Build versatility (Offensive Caster, Melee, Heal Bot)
Spell selection
Always gets groups
Good as any race (Great for a few though)
Duh... it's a cleric!!

Cleric: Weaknesses
Cost to operate
Pigeonhold into "Just heal me" routine
Has to fight stereo types (Eww.. youre a *blank* kind of cleric?)

Wizard: Strengths
Spell versatility/utility
Bonus feats

Wizard: Weaknesses
Lower SP then Sorcerers
Low hitpoints (usually)
More spell memorized

Sorcerer: Strengths
Lots of SP
Casting speed
Versatility (With use of UMD / NOT with spells)

Sorcerer: Weaknesses
Low hitpoints
Limited spell slots


Maby I'm wrong. Maby, in your opinion, I'm ignorant. Looks to me though that Paladin's, while not at the top of the food chain DPS/Kill Count wise, are pretty darn useful and versatile.

Inspire
06-16-2008, 09:48 AM
Borror Thinks Paladins Are Weak, Not Overpowered, He Was Being Sarcastic In His Title.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 09:56 AM
The title implies Pallies MIGHT be overpowered (maby not what you meant it to but there it is anyway).

Read the OP?!:confused:

It's "Are paladins overpowered!?", because if they are... I don't see it. Tell me why!!

You know, when you're trying to convince someone... usually you have to prove him you're right. Also, usually, when we argue against someone, we try to convince to think like us or at the very least try to make him understand our point of view. At least, that is how I have always seen debates...


You claim that you know Paladin's are not gimped, which contradicts your desire to have Turbine boost them to bring them in line with other melee abilities.

Let's play defnitions!! :)

Gimped: Unplayable. A character, build or class that is weak up to a point where it is not longer possible to play it.

What I'm saying, Luthen, is that unlike some people think, I'm not saying they cannoy play their paladin and fun and perform well. The class is weaker than others, but not to a point it's totally left behind and cannot perform decently. It's just that the class will perform worse than others.

A bad class will perform great in a good player's hands, until the class reaches a point where it's impossible.

While paladins have not yet reached the point of uselessness, it's not a reason to improve them. If we don't and keep boosting other classes, they will reach that point one day or another. It's just the logic of MMOs, that is how it works. Content is balanced for the strongest, not the weakest.

PS: The rest is coming in a seperate post.

gpk
06-16-2008, 09:57 AM
Heck, he [Eladrin] could have told us why these spells were chosen, rather than being silent.

I think we would be more understanding if we'd know what is his point of view on the issue.

Well yes I'm sure many people would love to know what he's thinking with nearly all things pally.
The problem there is that when we get "explanations" like we got for Divine Sacrifice, then explanations for the explanations, many were left in a terribly confused state.

Still better to know the reasoning and be given the opportunity to refute and provide solid counter-arguments in the hope of stopping the hemorrhaging; though many are quite wary about openly debating and refuting dev statements.

Sometimes silence speaks for itself; in the case of DS dev clarifications, I don't recall anyone actually agreeing with Eladrin's statements or for that matter attempting to refute the arguments made against said "clarifications".

elraido
06-16-2008, 10:05 AM
Gimped: Unplayable. A character, build or class that is weak up to a point where it is not longer possible to play it.

What I'm saying, Luthen, is that unlike some people think, I'm not saying they cannoy play their paladin and fun and perform well. The class is weaker than others, but not to a point it's totally left behind and cannot perform decently. It's just that the class will perform worse than others.

A bad class will perform great in a good player's hands, until the class reaches a point where it's impossible.

While paladins have not yet reached the point of uselessness, it's not a reason to improve them. If we don't and keep boosting other classes, they will reach that point one day or another. It's just the logic of MMOs, that is how it works. Content is balanced for the strongest, not the weakest.

PS: The rest is coming in a seperate post.


I have to agree with that almost 100%. Pre mod 4 paladins were overpowered, then they nerfed them to bring them down a little bit, then every other class (with the exception of fighters) have past them like they were tied to a tree stump.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 10:10 AM
I have to agree with that almost 100%. Pre mod 4 paladins were overpowered, then they nerfed them to bring them down a little bit, then every other class (with the exception of fighters) have past them like they were tied to a tree stump.

Actually it was pre-Module 3.3 paladins that were powerful.

Module 3.3 overpowered barbarians, and nerfed fighters. Then, Module 4.0 nerfs paladins and weakers AC overall, hurting both fighters and paladins as these two classes were famous for their mid-AC. Then, Turbine decided that barbarians were not overpowered and slowly started to bring classes on par with barbarians. Module 6's ranger love was the result of that decision.

elraido
06-16-2008, 10:17 AM
Actually it was pre-Module 3.3 paladins that were powerful.

Module 3.3 overpowered barbarians, and nerfed fighters. Then, Module 4.0 nerfs paladins and weakers AC overall, hurting both fighters and paladins as these two classes were famous for their mid-AC. Then, Turbine decided that barbarians were not overpowered and slowly started to bring classes on par with barbarians. Module 6's ranger love was the result of that decision.

What he said....I knew it was around the same time. :D

gpk
06-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Actually it was pre-Module 3.3 paladins that were powerful.

Module 3.3 overpowered barbarians, and nerfed fighters. Then, Module 4.0 nerfs paladins and weakers AC overall, hurting both fighters and paladins as these two classes were famous for their mid-AC. Then, Turbine decided that barbarians were not overpowered and slowly started to bring classes on par with barbarians. Module 6's ranger love was the result of that decision.

Yes it's the new enhancement system that shifted the balance all around.
Still, some can make the case that paladins were too strong in mod 1 and 2 and by mod3 some of that fixed itself, 3.3 obviously took away from paladins all the while boosting some other classes. Back then of course noone had a problem wich much of the rebalancing minus some glaringly overpowered enhancements for some other class.

Of course for me the question ahs always been, do you keep nerfing and ignoring a class after the new enhancement system toned it down? Do you nerf and neglect a class in mod 4-7 because it was too strong in mods 1 and 2?

Talon_Moonshadow
06-16-2008, 10:49 AM
Paladins Definately aren't fine. Actually, they suck.

I never allow more then 1 paladin in my shroud groups. More then 1 and it will take half an hour to finish beating down the portals.

I try to keep paladins out of my lfms as much as possible unless I know the person.


Actually, I try to keep out pure fighters too. In my opinion, pure fighters are just as bad as paladins.

Yeah, everyone knows Pallies can't use keen weps of greater contruct bane. :rolleyes:

eonfreon
06-16-2008, 11:33 AM
Overall, very nice post. :)



This is the part I disagree with.

I, like most people here, love the twitch aspect of the game!! I like jumping around, avoiding stuff, I love the fast pace, etc. I don't mind using tons of hotkeys for many abilities, potinos, clickies, Intimidate, weapons, whatever! That's not what bothers me. If anyone thinks that I'm complaining that I got to press a button too often, then maybe that person should consider the fact that my main is an intimitank that spams Intimidate every six seconds and Cleave and Great Cleave as soon as they get cooldowns is over.

That's is not the problem.

The problem is that pressing that hotkey on our hotbar doesn't trigger the ability too well. Most time than others, when I want to land a smite, I've got to continuously press until it records it. That's what I'm complaining about. At least like that you could hold auto-attack on and press Smite Evil... to se it land at your next swing rather than having to press your hotkey until it happens.

I see a lot of people thinking I'm asking for an easy button, but I don't see how it removes your chances to miss a Smite Evil. Your next swing is a Smite, if the mob has moved since then... in the air. There are still chances for failure. They are lower than now, but the point is that the current system is buggy.

Okay I think I actually agree with you now. I have noticed that it's harder and harder for my Trip and Stun to actually "fire" off. I was slamming the button like crazy last night and it wouldn't go off. I even noticed that the icon on the hotkey would look like it was trying to activate- it would have a "half-glow" on it- but never fired till I finally moved thus breaking my attack chain and starting over. I think this new hold-down attack button thing has kind of broken something. I don't use it because the clicking, while annoying, has a greater chance of firing off my special attacks more often- and it's definently getting very delayed at times.
And to whoever criticized me for asking folks to tone down the name-calling, well what can I say, of all the things I would have been criticized for that was not what I would have expected. "Diluted by this trash". Really? Perhaps it was oversentimental drivel, I'd had a few too many beers, but "trash". Okay, fine. I shall resume the name-calling in this thread- you big fat Meanie!!!!

Borror0
06-16-2008, 11:43 AM
I even noticed that the icon on the hotkey would look like it was trying to activate- it would have a "half-glow" on it- but never fired till I finally moved thus breaking my attack chain and starting over.

Exactly what I'm talking about.


Okay, fine. I shall resume the name-calling in this thread- you big fat Meanie!!!!

hehe

Gunga
06-16-2008, 12:25 PM
Overpowered is a descriptive word used by a subjective character of experience. There are individuals who play this game and don't find holding one button down to be the only qualifier for having a good time. If the unique abilities of the paladin suit the play style of an individual, then yes, when compared to a fighter or barbarian or warchanter, that individual might consider a paladin to be overpowered.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 12:35 PM
Overpowered is a descriptive word used by a subjective character of experience. There are individuals who play this game and don't find holding one button down to be the only qualifier for having a good time.

Fun != Power

But you just gave my explanation of why there would always be a few paladins, regardless of how weak they would be.


If the unique abilities of the paladin suit the play style of an individual, then yes, when compared to a fighter or barbarian or warchanter, that individual might consider a paladin to be overpowered.

All classes will suit someone's playstyle. That's not an argument to leave them as be.

parvo
06-16-2008, 12:52 PM
D&D character classes are balanced for D&D. Instead of re-balancing all the classes for Z&HO (Zerg and Heal Online), just make death matter. -1 permenant innate Constitution loss on character death. Then let's see how Paladin's stack up.

When survival matters, Paladin's rock.

parvo
06-16-2008, 12:55 PM
All classes will suit someone's playstyle. That's not an argument to leave them as be.

But a simple DPS comparison with Barbarians is a good argument to change them?

Borror0
06-16-2008, 01:27 PM
But a simple DPS comparison with Barbarians is a good argument to change them?

Ok, parvo, I'll be nice with you. You're a permadeath player so you can't understand the debate.

You see at low levels, paladins are great at surviving. Armor Class saves them from damage, their saves are just outstanding and S&B with PA is incredible DPS. However, that switfts around level 11. When you enter Gianthold, your AC's efficiency drasticly drops. It starts requiring more and more item slots sacrificed to AC, weaking you left and right. Also, ThF and TwF DPS has got much higher than S&B. You end up taking more damage than you used to, and not dealing that much more.

At end game, it's important to be able to deal damage when needed. Paladins and fighters have the problem that their DPS is much lower than any other melee class because Turbine felt like making them focus on AC for the previous Modules and have upgraded every class, but these two. Actually, both of them actually suffered losses since Module 3.3, while the others have gained!!

So, while paladins may survive to your eyes, it's only for two reasons:

Armor Class
Low levels

And, like I have repeated myself multiple times, Armor Class is a build option, not a class ability. Do not say that paladins are great for their AC, as at high level, you have to spec for it. Thus, it comes to S&B versus DPS. A paladin should not be for into S&B to be effective (and thus requiring a lot of gear), but proposed a path to DPS or AC. Of course, their DPS should not be as high as a barbarian or a ranger against his Favored Enemy, but more than what it currently is.

And then, to balance for his lower DPS, he needs more than what he currrently got.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 01:39 PM
Fun != Power

But you just gave my explanation of why there would always be a few paladins, regardless of how weak they would be.

Hmm, quite. But this same logic could be applied to all classes, so why change anything? Are there not level 16 rogues running around while the same skills could be obtained by a ranger with 1 level of rogue?



All classes will suit someone's playstyle. That's not an argument to leave them as be.


It really is an argument to leave them be, even if you don't buy it. The perspective of a few is certainly not a reason for change, though.

GramercyRiff
06-16-2008, 01:45 PM
D&D character classes are balanced for D&D.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Clerics and Druids step on every melee's toes in PnP, as they can melee better AND are full casters. Wizards just add insult to injury. Class balance in 3.5 is non-existent.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 01:53 PM
Ok, parvo, I'll be nice with you. You're a permadeath player so you can't understand the debate.

That's nice to see.



You see at low levels, paladins are great at surviving. Armor Class saves them from damage, their saves are just outstanding and S&B with PA is incredible DPS. However, that switfts around level 11. When you enter Gianthold, your AC's efficiency drasticly drops. It starts requiring more and more item slots sacrificed to AC, weaking you left and right. Also, ThF and TwF DPS has got much higher than S&B. You end up taking more damage than you used to, and not dealing that much more.

At end game, it's important to be able to deal damage when needed. Paladins and fighters have the problem that their DPS is much lower than any other melee class because Turbine felt like making them focus on AC for the previous Modules and have upgraded every class, but these two. Actually, both of them actually suffered losses since Module 3.3, while the others have gained!!


Totally, completely, absolutely thoroughly and redundantly off base. At end game, the only relevant weapon is a stat damager or a vorpal, unless you're at a boss. Period. Then, and really only then, and often very weapon-type specifically, it's dps. There's a lot going on between bosses, even at end game.



So, while paladins may survive to your eyes, it's only for two reasons:

Armor Class
Low levelsAnd, like I have repeated myself multiple times, Armor Class is a build option, not a class ability. Do not say that paladins are great for their AC, as at high level, you have to spec for it. Thus, it comes to S&B versus DPS. A paladin should not be for into S&B to be effective (and thus requiring a lot of gear), but proposed a path to DPS or AC. Of course, their DPS should not be as high as a barbarian or a ranger against his Favored Enemy, but more than what it currently is.

And then, to balance for his lower DPS, he needs more than what he currrently got.


Nah. Fighters and Paladins get the greatest ac...not individually but by mixing both. The ac that is attainable by a Dwarf Fighter/Pali hybrid is definately relevant at end game in the current mod.

News Flash: the new top melee build in the game is not a pure class at all, but a mix of three. None of which are your #1 Barbarian class. And I like it that way.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 01:59 PM
There's a lot going on between bosses, even at end game.

In that case TwF is twice better than S&D, it's as worse.


The ac that is attainable by a Dwarf Fighter/Pali hybrid is definately relevant at end game in the current mod.

News Flash: the new top build in the game is not a pure class at all, but a mix of three. And I like it that way.

News flash, eh? Do you realise my main is a dwarven fighter/paladin I made around Module 4?

Twerpp
06-16-2008, 02:01 PM
That's nice to see.



Totally, completely, absolutely thoroughly and redundantly off base. At end game, the only relevant weapon is a stat damager or a vorpal, unless you're at a boss. Period. Then, and really only then, and often very weapon-type specific, it's dps. There's a lot going on between bosses, even at end game.



Nah. Fighters and Paladins get the greatest ac...not individually but by mixing both. The ac that is attainable by a Dwarf Fighter/Pali hybrid is definately relevant at end game in the current mod.

News Flash: the new top build in the game is not a pure class at all, but a mix of three. And I like it that way.

Sorry to derail Borr. Whats the build Gungah? I'm a multiclass fan myself is this one posted?
And...multiclass builds are usually "the new top build" for one mod. Then there's a new one. Pures are usually a safer bet for a long term strong-in-their-particular-role character. A well built 16th level Paladin will always be a good Paladin..where one with evasion in full plate for example may not :D

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:03 PM
In that case TwF is twice better than S&D, it's as worse.



News flash, eh? Do you realise my main is a dwarven fighter/paladin I made around Module 4?

Well, that would be 2 classes...

Borror0
06-16-2008, 02:04 PM
Sorry to derail Borr.

I don't really mind, but that is what PMs are for... but I'm curious as well.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 02:07 PM
Well, that would be 2 classes...
Err...



The ac that is attainable by a Dwarf Fighter/Pali hybrid is definately relevant at end game in the current mod.

Dwarf: Check
Fighter: Check
Paladin: Check

Yup, I qualify.:D


None of which are your #1 Barbarian class. And I like it that way.

Because barbarians are not front loaded, you've proved nothing... and you're talking an AC, aren't you?:D

Borror0
06-16-2008, 02:09 PM
No, I'm saying that I'm not seeing it because you're being brief, not concise.

Impaqt
06-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Hmm, quite. But this same logic could be applied to all classes, so why change anything? Are there not level 16 rogues running around while the same skills could be obtained by a ranger with 1 level of rogue?



It really is an argument to leave them be, even if you don't buy it. The perspective of a few is certainly not a reason for change, though.
I can Guarantee you that theres not a SIngle 1Rogue/15 ANYTHING ELSE character on the server that does 8d6 of extra damage on a Sneak attack.

I can guarnatee you thats theres not a single 1Rghe/15 ANYTHING ELSE character on the server that can obtain a higher Spot/Search/Disable AND Open Lock than a Pure/Mostly Rogue class character.

I can guarnatee you that ANY 1-2/14-15 split rogue has sacrificed quite a bit to be able to effectively trapsmith.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Sorry to derail Borr. Whats the build Gungah? I'm a multiclass fan myself is this one posted?
And...multiclass builds are usually "the new top build" for one mod. Then there's a new one. Pures are usually a safer bet for a long term strong-in-their-particular-role character. A well built 16th level Paladin will always be a good Paladin..where one with evasion in full plate for example may not :D

You'll see a bunch of us running around with slightly different variations of the theme, Twerpp. This MOD has kind of dictated what the build is, so without boring everyone with stats, I'm sure you can pretty much figure it out for yourselves.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:11 PM
I can Guarantee you that theres not a SIngle 1Rogue/15 ANYTHING ELSE character on the server that does 8d6 of extra damage on a Sneak attack.

I can guarnatee you thats theres not a single 1Rghe/15 ANYTHING ELSE character on the server that can obtain a higher Spot/Search/Disable AND Open Lock than a Pure/Mostly Rogue class character.

I can guarnatee you that ANY 1-2/14-15 split rogue has sacrificed quite a bit to be able to effectively trapsmith.

I agree with you. But is it relevant?

AxeM
06-16-2008, 02:15 PM
Hoping back a few topics I've had problems with clickie attacks just spamming the attack button as always rather then holding it down.
I have found that if I hold the clicke attack down it will go off eventually. Seems to take a few more swings but it's much more rewarding then just hitting the button over and over again watching it half light up.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 02:16 PM
I agree with you. But is it relevant?

Yes, you compared a X whatever/ 1 rogue to a 16 level rogue.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Err...

Dwarf: Check
Fighter: Check
Paladin: Check

Yup, I qualify.:D



Because barbarians are not front loaded, you've proved nothing... and you're talking an AC, aren't you?:D

Wow. Focus...

"News Flash: the new top melee build in the game is not a pure class at all, but a mix of three. None of which are your #1 Barbarian class. And I like it that way."

See:

3 classes. (Dwarf isn't a class)
Top melee build, not just ac.

NEWSFLASH: You don't have to be verbose to make a concise point.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 02:19 PM
Top melee build, not just ac.

And that build is..?

Impaqt
06-16-2008, 02:24 PM
I agree with you. But is it relevant?
You brought it up, so evdentally, yes.

bigal4458
06-16-2008, 02:25 PM
snip*

Nah. Fighters and Paladins get the greatest ac...not individually but by mixing both. The ac that is attainable by a Dwarf Fighter/Pali hybrid is definately relevant at end game in the current mod.

News Flash: the new top melee build in the game is not a pure class at all, but a mix of three. None of which are your #1 Barbarian class. And I like it that way.

But isn't this debate about the high levels or a Pure Paladin? I see your point, but it become moot in this discussion i believe.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Yes, you compared a X whatever/ 1 rogue to a 16 level rogue.

I guess this might be a deeper subject than we need to get into in this thread, but for your benefit:

Going 16 in any class is a subjective choice. My 11/3/2 drow rogue/ranger/fighter could detect and unlock the cabal elite trap, which I think is still one of the toughest in the game. This is where the relevance question comes in:

WHO CARES?

Only those trapsmiths that want to say they can do it. Braging rights, cause gygax knows you don't need the junk in that chest. You certainly don't build a 16 rogue if you want to be a melee dpser. Please....can someone say "ding"?

Impaqt
06-16-2008, 02:25 PM
NEWSFLASH: You don't have to be verbose to make a concise point.
But it sure doe shelp when Peole have no idea of the point your trying to make.

Jondallar
06-16-2008, 02:28 PM
ding?



















;)

Impaqt
06-16-2008, 02:28 PM
I guess this might be a deeper subject than we need to get into in this thread, but for your benefit:

Going 16 in any class is a subjective choice. My 11/3/2 drow rogue/ranger/fighter could detect and unlock the cabal elite trap, which I think is still one of the toughest in the game. This is where the relevance question comes in:

WHO CARES?

Only those trapsmiths that want to say they can do it. Braging rights, cause gygax knows you don't need the junk in that chest. You certainly don't build a 16 rogue if you want to be a melee dpser. Please....can someone say "ding"?

ding?

Sorry, a 16 Rogue can absolutely be build to DPS.

bigal4458
06-16-2008, 02:29 PM
I guess this might be a deeper subject than we need to get into in this thread, but for your benefit:

Going 16 in any class is a subjective choice. My 11/3/2 drow rogue/ranger/fighter could detect and unlock the cabal elite trap, which I think is still one of the toughest in the game. This is where the relevance question comes in:

WHO CARES?

Only those trapsmiths that want to say they can do it. Braging rights, cause gygax knows you don't need the junk in that chest. You certainly don't build a 16 rogue if you want to be a melee dpser. Please....can someone say "ding"?

It seems as though you arguing just for sake of arguing at this point.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:32 PM
But it sure doe shelp when Peole have no idea of the point your trying to make.

I'm sure you can get it if you try hard enough. You're smart!

Gunga
06-16-2008, 02:38 PM
It seems as though you arguing just for sake of arguing at this point.

Hey al, you kind of came into the conversation late. I'm really not even talking to you....you can go back in the thread a bit to catch up.

Twerpp
06-16-2008, 02:42 PM
It seems as though you arguing just for sake of arguing at this point.

Aren't we all? :P

Nah just kidding.

























Seriously though.

Coldest
06-16-2008, 06:18 PM
A well built 16th level Paladin will always be a good Paladin..where one with evasion in full plate for example may not :D

PFTW

parvo
06-16-2008, 07:18 PM
Ok, parvo, I'll be nice with you. You're a permadeath player so you can't understand the debate.

You see at low levels, paladins are great at surviving. Armor Class saves them from damage, their saves are just outstanding and S&B with PA is incredible DPS. However, that switfts around level 11. When you enter Gianthold, your AC's efficiency drasticly drops. It starts requiring more and more item slots sacrificed to AC, weaking you left and right. Also, ThF and TwF DPS has got much higher than S&B. You end up taking more damage than you used to, and not dealing that much more.

At end game, it's important to be able to deal damage when needed. Paladins and fighters have the problem that their DPS is much lower than any other melee class because Turbine felt like making them focus on AC for the previous Modules and have upgraded every class, but these two. Actually, both of them actually suffered losses since Module 3.3, while the others have gained!!

So, while paladins may survive to your eyes, it's only for two reasons:

Armor Class
Low levelsAnd, like I have repeated myself multiple times, Armor Class is a build option, not a class ability. Do not say that paladins are great for their AC, as at high level, you have to spec for it. Thus, it comes to S&B versus DPS. A paladin should not be for into S&B to be effective (and thus requiring a lot of gear), but proposed a path to DPS or AC. Of course, their DPS should not be as high as a barbarian or a ranger against his Favored Enemy, but more than what it currently is.

And then, to balance for his lower DPS, he needs more than what he currrently got.

nm...edited out

Inspire
06-16-2008, 07:39 PM
The end game isn't here yet. You no more qualified to discuss it than my grandma.

Judging By The Speed Things Seem To Be Accomplished Around Here... Your Grandma May Just Be A Dev!:D

Jesen
06-16-2008, 08:11 PM
I guess this might be a deeper subject than we need to get into in this thread, but for your benefit:

Going 16 in any class is a subjective choice. My 11/3/2 drow rogue/ranger/fighter could detect and unlock the cabal elite trap, which I think is still one of the toughest in the game. This is where the relevance question comes in:

WHO CARES?

Only those trapsmiths that want to say they can do it. Braging rights, cause gygax knows you don't need the junk in that chest. You certainly don't build a 16 rogue if you want to be a melee dpser. Please....can someone say "ding"?

My rogue is built for DPS, as long as I am sneak attacking no other class can out DPS him. Period.

70+ Damage sneak attacks with GTWF, elemental/holy effects and greensteel weapons. I am not a mathematician so I wont put up a whole bunch of calculations, but I know for a fact he puts my Barbarian to shame. Even on Moderate fortification mobs. Little hint, put points into Subtle backstabbing :D


Oh yea rogues suck at melee DPS, I should have made a repeater build :cool:

Gunga
06-16-2008, 08:19 PM
My rogue is built for DPS, as long as I am sneak attacking no other class can out DPS him. Period.

70+ Damage sneak attacks with GTWF, elemental/holy effects and greensteel weapons. I am not a mathematician so I wont put up a whole bunch of calculations, but I know for a fact he puts my Barbarian to shame. Even on Moderate fortification mobs. Little hint, put points into Subtle backstabbing :D


Oh yea rogues suck at melee DPS, I should have made a repeater build :cool:

Ding.

Accelerando
06-17-2008, 10:25 AM
My rogue is built for DPS, as long as I am sneak attacking no other class can out DPS him. Period.

70+ Damage sneak attacks with GTWF, elemental/holy effects and greensteel weapons. I am not a mathematician so I wont put up a whole bunch of calculations, but I know for a fact he puts my Barbarian to shame. Even on Moderate fortification mobs. Little hint, put points into Subtle backstabbing :D


Sorry man, my mains have always been rogues and I love them but you are not out DPSing a barb against moderate fort with 16 straight rogue. Subtle backstabbing has nothing to do with fortification.


bye :(

artvan_delet
06-17-2008, 10:42 AM
This thread seems to be falling apart, but here are a few thoughts.

1) No greensteel shields, and most paladins are S/B. Disadvantage.
2) My paladin is much, much more gear dependent than my clerics. I can get relatively cheap cleric gear and match up near the best of clerics. Not so with my pally.
3) My pure paladin isn't great at anything, except surviving. Moderate DPS (30 Str with tier 2 weapon usually), good hp (450), good saves (26 CHA), and decent spells (resists, DW, virtue, stoneskin clickie). But this is with 2 years of grinding, raiding, cleansed GS item, millions of plat for gear/weapons. I do stay alive because with enhanced recovery and 4 LOHs, I'm tough to kill. And I play well. My paladin is a jack of all trades, master of none.
I do think that if I put this much time/plat into a barb or ranger, the toon would absolutely dominate, at killing and likely at staying alive also. For hardcore DDO players, I don't recommend pure paladin. I think that's how DDO sees paladins, and that's why we keep getting these average spells. I can recall only two suggestions regarding paladins that the devs have listened to (reduced BOG cost and upgraded holy sword).
4) Pure paladin is a tactical waste.

Borror0
06-17-2008, 10:49 AM
This thread seems to be falling apart, but here are a few thoughts.

Actually, that wasn't so much the point of the thread. It was to ask if paladins are so powerful that they don't need any "love".

So far, we got KaTet to tell me that paladins are uber and that no one can play one right but them.

valerieanne
06-17-2008, 11:17 AM
[QUOTE=artvan delet;1753946]
I do think that if I put this much time/plat into a barb or ranger, the toon would absolutely dominate, at killing and likely at staying alive also. For hardcore DDO players, I don't recommend pure paladin. QUOTE]

While half the time yelling on voice chat, UberBarb is cursed, UberBarb needs a heal from Con damage, UberBarb needs this, uberBarb needs that ... and so on ....

Paladins are fine for what they are capable of (Mine is a DPS 2hf pally with naught-all AC). Barbarians might deal out tremendous amount of damage, but they also need a babysitter cleric to do anything right.

I honestly thinks the complaining needs to stop ... It's all in the player, not so much the build. Meet Chelsea, a paladin in my guild, who almost always dominates the kill count, does not need baby sitting and is a paladin ...

I think DS and ES is really really nice too ...

Oh well .. sleepy now ... you may continue crying about paladins ...

Borror0
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
I honestly thinks the complaining needs to stop ... It's all in the player, not so much the build.

So, tell me, as a DDO developer, what class would you improve? You've got to make a choice.

Venar
06-17-2008, 12:13 PM
A rogue is right up there with Barbarians.
It`s called Greensteel Radiance 2 Rapier, and crippling Strike (lvl 10 rogue ability).
So, go in, with teh rapier the mob will be blind in about 0.001 second, then each hit is +8d6 and -2 STR, which should remove all STR in about 1 second, meaning each hit now also crit from all the bonus on your weapons.

My rogue usually outkills barbarians and i dont even use a w/p weapon.

Gunga
06-17-2008, 12:22 PM
So, tell me, as a DDO developer, what class would you improve? You've got to make a choice.

I think we need to move the game forward with Druids, Half-Orcs and new content. Palis could use a couple of the great spells that gpk has been yelling about for 14 months, but other than that they're a great class that keeps me playing them. They're are some people that are bored with certain aspects of the game, but for those very few we shouldn't ruin the game for the majority who enjoy it. In the long-term I'm sure we'd all like to see specialized subclasses and implementation of the Epic levels. Short term: Druids, Half-Orcs and new content.

Gunga
06-17-2008, 12:23 PM
A rogue is right up there with Barbarians.
It`s called Greensteel Radiance 2 Rapier, and crippling Strike (lvl 10 rogue ability).
So, go in, with teh rapier the mob will be blind in about 0.001 second, then each hit is +8d6 and -2 STR, which should remove all STR in about 1 second, meaning each hit now also crit from all the bonus on your weapons.

My rogue usually outkills barbarians and i dont even use a w/p weapon.

Ding.

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 01:16 PM
A rogue is right up there with Barbarians.
It`s called Greensteel Radiance 2 Rapier, and crippling Strike (lvl 10 rogue ability).
So, go in, with teh rapier the mob will be blind in about 0.001 second, then each hit is +8d6 and -2 STR, which should remove all STR in about 1 second, meaning each hit now also crit from all the bonus on your weapons.

My rogue usually outkills barbarians and i dont even use a w/p weapon.

Yep, my w of p's are collecting dust since my rapier was completed...but what does this have to do with paladins other than naming two classes that are way better than them? :D

Gunga
06-17-2008, 01:19 PM
Yep, my w of p's are collecting dust since my rapier was completed...but what does this have to do with paladins other than naming two classes that are way better than them? :D

Since we're way off the moldy op pali topic, what's your favorite rogue build? Would you splash it with pali?

Venar
06-17-2008, 01:45 PM
To kill an Elite Bearded devil? Sure, Barbs and Rogue are better then a paladin.
To tank the Horned Devil... No blinding, no stat damage. I'll take the paladin, with his saves, i dont have to remove curse him every 2 seconds. Of course, an evasion paladin ftw.

Venar
06-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Since we're way off the moldy op pali topic, what's your favorite rogue build? Would you splash it with pali?


Halfling Rogue 10 Fighter 6, TWF.

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 01:54 PM
Since we're way off the moldy op pali topic, what's your favorite rogue build? Would you splash it with pali?

My rogue build (and favorite build to play) is posted in the rogue forums with a screenshot even. Its a 10/6 Rogue Ranger Tempest type. Pally levels are ALWAYS very tempting, it's not like it's some sort of build secret that a few pally levels have been the best option for melee multi-classers for a long time, and 2-3 would have been nice. But I had to break the Lawful Stupid habit and try a new path..and I wanted to hit max rogue haste boost, crippling strike, and dex enhancements.

Twerpp is a multi-mutt with 3 levels, and was the best AC I could come up with for a 28 pointer prior to the academy training mod. He could be built better now, but sticks intimidates on the Reaver Elite just fine, and can make the big doggie dance for him....

BTW any multi-pally with access to full intimidate ranks that arent maxing them...is gimp. To me thats the pallys one true weakness, ungodly defenses but unble to make somebody want to hit him. Its one thing to DPS or pull and get some aggro, its entirely another to have 50+ intimidate and pull mobs off of a caster and back into an extincion level event nuke while you laugh at them from behind your shield and 11 other party members swinging/casting away safely from the other side....indefinitely.

Venar
06-17-2008, 01:59 PM
Dont paladin get an enhancement to increase their threat?

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Dont paladin get an enhancement to increase their threat?

Even if it does work, its not as good as intimidate. Intimidate check will get you 100% aggro no matter how much dps the party is doing. That line is an increase in your damage threat generated. If you are out DPS'ed by 200% for example, it wont hold aggro.

Cashiry
06-17-2008, 02:32 PM
I personally think that Paladins are fine.( now b4 you jump to any conclusions my main is a Pally).

Of course there can be improvents.... I.E. giving Pallys the intimidate skill. There is one thing that should be fixed however, and that is smite evil breaking your attack sequence. Other than that... the class is fine the way it is...

If I were going to go with a class that's needing the most attention it would have to be the rogue. Give them their job back make the traps so ridiculously high that a 90% Rogue/Hybrid can actually be useful again.... It amazes me that by taking 1 or 2 levels of rogue, that one can actually disarm/unlock/spot/search for 90% or more of all the things you need a rogue for....

Cash

Borror0
06-17-2008, 02:40 PM
If I were going to go with a class that's needing the most attention it would have to be the rogue. Give them their job back make the traps so ridiculously high that a 90% Rogue/Hybrid can actually be useful again...

Riddiculous claim.

With rogues, it's all or nothing. Either you make them necessary or un-needed... for traps. Radiance II was a huge boost. There is no way to stop the pigeonholing of the rogues into trapsmiths. However, there would be a way to help them in being seen more as "tanks" and it's a nerf to a certain enhancement line, but as soon as you talk about nerfing people look at you weirdly on these forums and they don't seem to get that boosting in power isn't the right solution.


It amazes me that by taking 1 or 2 levels of rogue, that one can actually disarm/unlock/spot/search for 90% or more of all the things you need a rogue for...

It's the same in PnP. No, actually, it's even easier.

Angelus_dead
06-17-2008, 02:56 PM
It's the same in PnP. No, actually, it's even easier.
No, it isn't. In PnP you also need a rogue for Hide, Move Silently, Climb, and Bluff. None of those skills are needed in DDO, meaning the lower skillpoints of the non-rogue levels isn't an obstacle to handling roguey-jobs.

Borror0
06-17-2008, 03:14 PM
No, it isn't. In PnP you also need a rogue for Hide, Move Silently, Climb, and Bluff.

I agree with that, I was refering to doing traps.

There should be skill love one day or another, making rogues more attractive. However, "rogue love" should never pass through traps. Increasing traps DCs and making rogue deadlier will only take the enjoyment you can have from a rogue by forcing them into trapsmithing. They'll have to sacrifice more of their combat abilities for trapsmithing when what you want is the opposite.

In such a combat-oriented game, you don't want to take away from rogues combat-capability. However, if you want to make skills more useful, I'm on your side.

LawstCawz
06-17-2008, 03:17 PM
No, it isn't. In PnP you also need a rogue for Hide, Move Silently, Climb, and Bluff. None of those skills are needed in DDO, meaning the lower skillpoints of the non-rogue levels isn't an obstacle to handling roguey-jobs.

Pfft. Who needs to sneak around? Once, a dm didn't think my rogue should be using a greataxe and refused to give one to me. This only caused me to seek out the nearest lumberjack and stab him in the back... only to find he was chopping down trees with a longsword! :eek: Rog's are what you make them, hence the class name. In pnp, they can be so much more than ddo. What you are doing, is pigeonholing (term of the month I guess?).:p

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 03:41 PM
Pfft. Who needs to sneak around? Once, a dm didn't think my rogue should be using a greataxe and refused to give one to me. This only caused me to seek out the nearest lumberjack and stab him in the back... only to find he was chopping down trees with a longsword! :eek: Rog's are what you make them, hence the class name. In pnp, they can be so much more than ddo. What you are doing, is pigeonholing (term of the month I guess?).:p


There are some interesting sneak points in the game. I'm glad I put some points into it. If assassin II ever works it will be nice as rogues can assassinate a caster before the fight even starts.

And just so I can claim I'm not de-railing....Paladins are overpowered!!! WAHHHHHH!! oo;

LawstCawz
06-17-2008, 03:51 PM
There are some interesting sneak points in the game. I'm glad I put some points into it. If assassin II ever works it will be nice as rogues can assassinate a caster before the fight even starts.

And just so I can claim I'm not de-railing....Paladins are overpowered!!! WAHHHHHH!! oo;

This was a pnp example. Trust me though, I would love to shank me some ddo npc's.

p.s. Palys need kewler shields to bring back the s&b love, and the new mods that have been appearing is a good start. Maybe something like a named shield...

Tiamat's Rebuke
+5 mithral heavy shield
1d6 fire
1d6 cold
1d6 lightening
1d6 good
1d6 evil

Maybe that's overpowered, but I can dream, right?

Rickpa
06-17-2008, 03:54 PM
I say yes!!

They got high AC!!!
They got high saves!!
They got Lay on Hands
They can land the highest criticals!!!:eek:
They got Resist Energy!!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm just tired of people arguing in paladins discussion saying that paladins are fine, it's not true. If they were, you'd say they would become overpowered if they receive any "love". We're not saying they are gimps, unplayable or that you should stop playing or not be happy or either ES or DS... but they are not fine.

Thank you.

You can debate now. :)

No debate here. Everything you say is true.... at least until I got my pally to Gianthold. Getting ganked every visit by the marut in PotP raised a red flag. Getting one-shotted by the Reaver, and finding myself in passenger status in that Raid sure put a damper on things. And forget about the Vale and Shroud!

I did make it to level 15.

Only a dwarf pally has any hope of making it in the high levels. That's because the pally is lacking in, and needs 3 things to play high-level content. Hit Points, Hit Points, and Hit Points. Yeah my pally was a drow. I can't just make myself make a dwarf, and so it goes.

I needed a slot for monk anyway, so the status of the paladin class is of no concern.

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 04:13 PM
I agree here, I think it IS possible to create an overpowered Dwarven Pure Paladin...cant say that about the other races for the most part :(

Hvymetal
06-17-2008, 04:54 PM
Since we're way off the moldy op pali topic, what's your favorite rogue build? Would you splash it with pali?
Yes I have one splashed w/ 3 Pally (did it when trap DC's were insanely high), I am now liking my newish tempest rogue probablly 6 Ranger rest Rogue up to 20. (I know you weren't talking to me but I can;t resist getting into Rogue conversations :D) And yea I would love to see the Druid. (OMG we agreed on something :p)

Hvymetal
06-17-2008, 04:57 PM
I personally think that Paladins are fine.( now b4 you jump to any conclusions my main is a Pally).

Of course there can be improvents.... I.E. giving Pallys the intimidate skill. There is one thing that should be fixed however, and that is smite evil breaking your attack sequence. Other than that... the class is fine the way it is...

If I were going to go with a class that's needing the most attention it would have to be the rogue. Give them their job back make the traps so ridiculously high that a 90% Rogue/Hybrid can actually be useful again.... It amazes me that by taking 1 or 2 levels of rogue, that one can actually disarm/unlock/spot/search for 90% or more of all the things you need a rogue for....

Cash
Please no, I really don;t want to have to force my Rogue into putting everything into traps that would get boring really fast and really stop us from getting into quests that don;t have traps.....

Hvymetal
06-17-2008, 04:58 PM
No, it isn't. In PnP you also need a rogue for Hide, Move Silently, Climb, and Bluff. None of those skills are needed in DDO, meaning the lower skillpoints of the non-rogue levels isn't an obstacle to handling roguey-jobs.

And diplomacy, and sense motive and..... (ad infinium..)

Coldest
06-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Actually, that wasn't so much the point of the thread. It was to ask if paladins are so powerful that they don't need any "love".

So far, we got KaTet to tell me that paladins are uber and that no one can play one right but them.

You are calling out a group of many instead of individuals. That ain't cool. Good players can build and play good Paladins regardless of what group they belong to. I suggest that if you want what you say to be taken seriously, then sarcasm may not be the right approach. Had you come out and said: "I feel that Paladin's could use a little love in upcoming patches and mods and here is where...." then I doubt you'd have received the disagreements from many who are very happy with their Palis to date.

Aesop
06-17-2008, 05:52 PM
This was a pnp example. Trust me though, I would love to shank me some ddo npc's.

p.s. Palys need kewler shields to bring back the s&b love, and the new mods that have been appearing is a good start. Maybe something like a named shield...

Tiamat's Rebuke
+5 mithral heavy shield
1d6 fire
1d6 cold
1d6 lightening
1d6 good
1d6 evil

Maybe that's overpowered, but I can dream, right?



how about

1d2 Fire
1d2 cold
1d2 acid
1d2 lightning
1d2 sonic


with burst effect of d4 for each :D

Borror0
06-17-2008, 05:54 PM
You are calling out a group of many instead of individuals. That ain't cool.

We try to keep peopel that don't fit us out of our guild, maybe you should consider doing the same if you don'y like Gunga and Accelerando's posts.


Good players can build and play good Paladins regardless of what group they belong to.

Right, but paladins have issues at end game that other classes don't have. Don't see it? Fine.

A good players is going to perform better, but with players of the same level... the paladin is going to be more limited thna many other classes.


Had you come out and said: "I feel that Paladin's could use a little love in upcoming patches and mods and here is where...." then I doubt you'd have received the disagreements from many who are very happy with their Palis to date.

Right, I used sarcasm, then explained myself. Read the whole OP?

I have explained myself calmly, countless times. Click the search option, and search for all the threads I posted in with the keyword paladin. Enjoy!

Aesop
06-17-2008, 06:17 PM
Click the search option, and search for all the threads I posted in with the keyword paladin. Enjoy!



dude totally unfair... I mean my english professor making us read war and peace was bad... but that's is just ridiculous


Aesop

Gunga
06-17-2008, 06:35 PM
We try to keep peopel that don't fit us out of our guild, maybe you should consider doing the same if you don'y like Gunga and Accelerando's posts.

Actually, none of us really agree with you or like you that much, regardless of the way we individually interact on the forums. So, as a guild, at least we all have that in common...


Right, but paladins have issues at end game that other classes don't have. Don't see it? Fine.

Right...like fighters and rangers. The best melee in the game is not a pure class but a combination of three. This doesn't mean that you can't go pure class, just that there is something better out there. Don't like it? Fine.


A good players is going to perform better, but with players of the same level... the paladin is going to be more limited thna many other classes.

Nah. Maybe our experience here is different.


Right, I used sarcasm, then explained myself. Read the whole OP?

Who has the time to read it all. Being verbose doesn't impress me. Consistant, logical points made simply do.


I have explained myself calmly, countless times. Click the search option, and search for all the threads I posted in with the keyword paladin. Enjoy!

No. I don't buy many of your new explanations, so I won't be looking up your oldies.

Borror0
06-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Actually, none of us really agree with you or like you that much, regardless of the way we individually interact on the forums. So, as a guild, at least we all have that in common...

So, your guild can't play bards properly?


Right...like fighters and rangers. The best melee in the game is not a pure class but a combination of three. This doesn't mean that you can't go pure class, just that there is something better out there. Don't like it? Fine.

You've missed the point, did you? (Yes, you did.)

You see, Gunga, it's not about multiclassed or not. It's about the fact that there is no incensitive to go past level 11.

But, if you want to compare multilcasses, a multiclassed rangers is better than a multiclassed paladin.


Nah. Maybe our experience here is different.

/whiperself Do not comment, do not comment...


Who has the time to read it all. Being verbose doesn't impress me. Consistant, logical points made simply do.

Make one? That'd be a first.

wolfy42
06-17-2008, 07:15 PM
I agree that higher lvl pure paladins could use some love. But I must say.....with the recent changes they have made going past lvl 11 worth it for a paladin.

I'm not saying that paladins bonuses past 11 stack up to say crit rage 1 and 2 for barbs, but you do get some nice bonuses (and really what does a barb get for lvl 15-16 (ok willpower boost is nice). What does a ranger get post lvl 11 currently?

That being said they do seem to get significantly more bonuses all together at least that affect just themselves and not the group.

At 12 now I belive you get a boost to your smites right now...and the next one is 15? I forget but it's somewhere around that.....they are fairly significant even if only burst damage.

At 14 (think it was 14) you get your last aura boosts...which again....are nice and affect the whole party.

So much like a barbarian I see paladins really gaining from the first 14 levels right now with the last 2 being blah..

Yes barbarians out DPS the paladin significantly...but the paladin has alot of advantages as well. The problem is that DPS is well.....more important then many of the paladins advantages. How much help is +5 to AC for most characters end game at this point for instance? For many it makes no difference at all.

The bonus to saves is nice, but only if your next to the pally...and again in some cases it won't make a difference anyway.

Pally's can get some seriously strong hits now and use DS to add damage as well at the cost of a tiny amount of sp (1 a pop) and 10 hp (not a big deal since you can self heal so much and have high max hp).

Will you do DPS equivalent to a Barbarian? Nope.

But your not a barbarian.....your a paladin.

You have spells, high ac, high saves etc. You ahve 2 free levels you can take as another class to get evasion and use it much better then most barbarians would due to high saves etc.

Again....not saying that paladins are "fine"...or don't need love, i just don't agree that it is such a massive disparity right now (After mod 7).

I totally think paladins should have intimidate as a class skill. That I can get behind 100%....but seriously.......you can multiclass in 1 or 2 non pally levels easily since the last 2 lvls are not that important and get it. Yes....it blows that a pure paladin does not get it already. It detracts from the pally's basic utility which is tanking and protecting the group.

Gunga
06-17-2008, 07:17 PM
So, your guild can't play bards properly?

Hello?



You've missed the point, did you? (Yes, you did.)

You see, Gunga, it's not about multiclassed or not. It's about the fact that there is no incensitive to go past level 11.

But, if you want to compare multilcasses, a multiclassed rangers is better than a multiclassed paladin.


You see, borroro, this is one of many, many crossroads where we just don't see eye to eye. My point is very simple: There are reasons to go 16 lvl Paladin. You just don't like them.


/whiperself Do not comment, do not comment...

extraordinary.


Make one? That'd be a first.

Whether you choose to acknowledge a point or not doesn't stop it from being one. Maybe you just have a hard time recognizing a point that isn't on your agenda. Cowdenicus used to have this problem too. Huh.

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 07:19 PM
Can't we all just get along :D

http://i25.tinypic.com/263k1mr.jpg

Gunga
06-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Can't we all just get along :D



Wouldn't that be boring. What are you doing twerp? Run a hound?

Coldest
06-17-2008, 07:22 PM
We try to keep peopel that don't fit us out of our guild, maybe you should consider doing the same if you don'y like Gunga and Accelerando's posts.


LMAO. I am starting to see a very clear pattern with you. Whether or not I agree with Gunga and Accelerando is immaterial to us being in KaTet together. And us being in KaTet is immaterial to your thread. I immagine your sense of a guild is much like your sense of a thread. "It's my way or the HIGHWAY!" Flippin classic man.

Twerpp
06-17-2008, 07:24 PM
Wouldn't that be boring. What are you doing twerp? Run a hound?


Im at work still cause I live in suckass Hawaii...wait a minute..now I really sound whiney.

Jesen
06-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Sorry man, my mains have always been rogues and I love them but you are not out DPSing a barb against moderate fort with 16 straight rogue. Subtle backstabbing has nothing to do with fortification.


bye :(

I never said it did, but it does almost guarantee that you will not pull aggro on a long fight. I have a 16 Barb and 16 Rogue Both with Greensteel weapons. I know from being in both positions who is doing more damage. It does help to have a heavy hitting tank drawing even more aggro though :D

Borror0
06-17-2008, 09:06 PM
My point is very simple: There are reasons to go 16 lvl Paladin. You just don't like them.

Right. There are reason for me to listen to all the Teletubies episodes, I just don't like them.


Whether you choose to acknowledge a point or not doesn't stop it from being one.

When a point is a sentence without explanation, it's not a point. Saying "paladins are fine", without saying why, is not making a point.

It's saying that paladins are fine.

Jondallar
06-17-2008, 09:59 PM
It's about the fact that there is no incensitive to go past level 11.

DS 2 lvl 12; DS 3 lvl 19
ES 3 lvl 15; ES 4 lvl 18
BoG4 lvl 15

:D

Gunga
06-17-2008, 10:28 PM
Right. There are reason for me to listen to all the Teletubies episodes, I just don't like them.



When a point is a sentence without explanation, it's not a point. Saying "paladins are fine", without saying why, is not making a point.

It's saying that paladins are fine.

1. I've seen you use the phrase "paladins are fine" at least twice in this thread, but I never did. Perhaps you're just lumping individual people with individual ideas together into one group again.

2. I can't imagine any reason why you would listen to all the Teletubies episodes, but for some reason I'm relieved that you don't like them.

3. The above two sentences contain points, and though they may be easier for you to identify because they're isolated by number, they are not less meaningful when presented in paragraph form.

4. BIG POINT: Palis could use a couple of spells, but after what we recently got for palis in MOD7, I'm thinking there are better places for the devs to spend some time. Fighter love, Druids, Half-Orcs, new content and a bit of work on the AC system would really suit me just fine.

Serpent
06-17-2008, 11:22 PM
So what we have gathered here is a group of people who think pure paladins need help, who are inturn conflicted by a group of people who think paladins are at least well balanced to actually being overpowered.

To get everyone on the same page will we have to give a paladin something like barb critical rage or an equivalent ability? I am starting to think that this is the question that needs to be answered. Otherwise there will always be conflicting views.

Aesop
06-18-2008, 04:58 AM
So what we have gathered here is a group of people who think pure paladins need help, who are inturn conflicted by a group of people who think paladins are at least well balanced to actually being overpowered.

To get everyone on the same page will we have to give a paladin something like barb critical rage or an equivalent ability? I am starting to think that this is the question that needs to be answered. Otherwise there will always be conflicting views.

2 spells and 2 divine feat options would make me happy

Righteous Fury(spell)

RIghteous Aura (spell)

Divine Might (Feat)

Divine Shield (Feat)

done and done

Geonis
06-18-2008, 05:23 AM
2 spells and 2 divine feat options would make me happy

Righteous Fury(spell)

RIghteous Aura (spell)

Divine Might (Feat)

Divine Shield (Feat)

done and done

Same here. I don't think anyone has asked for more than this. We don't want made up stuff to make us more powerful than the almighty Barbarian, we just want our due.

Anastasios
06-18-2008, 08:59 AM
You can't appease everyone can you? So subtle changes are a bit better imo...

It's hard to make a versatile character...it's a bit more of a challenge to play one, so for those who would rather not be challenged, I'm sure they will just play their game in an unexceptional manner. For the others who see the perks and benefits then the player will defintely play more exceptional than others.

Noone is going to cry if your Pally is on the shelf, or if he is 'broken', or if you hate how lacking he/she is. The game is evolving, evolve around it, and if that requires you to change or even delete your characters, then so be it. Otherwise mule em like others have done, there will be others out there who feel differently from you and are happy with how their character turned out.

As for limitations in regards to the pally, I'm a bit taken back, I mean if you think that a player limits himself by playing a Pally then you are sadly mistaken, a player limits himself by pretty much not wanting to ascend to a higher lvl of challenge, not because he is playing a Pally. Too many different ways to help a group out when you are versatile, thus making it easier on the group when the going gets rough.

Adapt and overcome, easy enough isn't it?

Holgar
06-18-2008, 09:10 AM
To me, the main thing Paladins need is higher AC. If their DPS isn't meant to match Barbarians and Rangers, then they can contribute through pure survival. Someone pointed out that high AC is great in the new raids. I agree, but why do people still labor under the misconception that Paladins have a high AC? They don't have Armor Mastery (unless they're dwarves), they're not proficient with tower shields unless they take a level of fighter, and it's pretty hard to give them a high enough Intelligence to take Combat Expertise (since all 5 of their other abilities are useful to some extent).

I think the devs are reluctant to boost the Aura because it might help the whole party too much. I agree. So give the Pallys some more personal AC. Like just a flat-out holy AC Bonus every 4 or 5 levels (like Monks), but make them wear at least Medium or Heavy Armor (so it won't work in conjunction with Monks, and gives a pretty serious reason to not splash 2 levels of rogue for evasion).

I want to hear people say: "We need some more time! Send in the Paladin!" :)

Holgar

Accelerando
06-18-2008, 09:48 AM
To me, the main thing Paladins need is higher AC.

I think the devs are reluctant to boost the Aura because it might help the whole party too much. I agree. So give the Pallys some more personal AC. Like just a flat-out holy AC Bonus every 4 or 5 levels (like Monks), but make them wear at least Medium or Heavy Armor (so it won't work in conjunction with Monks, and gives a pretty serious reason to not splash 2 levels of rogue for evasion).



Wow, a sensible opinion. Yes, bring back the old school bulwark for Pallies, keep the aura on the new Bulwark.

Nothing more is needed.

Jondallar
06-18-2008, 10:46 AM
To me, the main thing Paladins need is higher AC. If their DPS isn't meant to match Barbarians and Rangers, then they can contribute through pure survival. Someone pointed out that high AC is great in the new raids. I agree, but why do people still labor under the misconception that Paladins have a high AC? They don't have Armor Mastery (unless they're dwarves), they're not proficient with tower shields unless they take a level of fighter, and it's pretty hard to give them a high enough Intelligence to take Combat Expertise (since all 5 of their other abilities are useful to some extent).

I think the devs are reluctant to boost the Aura because it might help the whole party too much. I agree. So give the Pallys some more personal AC. Like just a flat-out holy AC Bonus every 4 or 5 levels (like Monks), but make them wear at least Medium or Heavy Armor (so it won't work in conjunction with Monks, and gives a pretty serious reason to not splash 2 levels of rogue for evasion).

I want to hear people say: "We need some more time! Send in the Paladin!" :)

Holgar


I hate u:D

that is a good idea:) ...only the the whole med/heavy armor deal conflicts with 2 of my current characters (which I planned around the evasion fix) and it affects my new pally/monk build.. oh well c'est la vie

Gunga
06-18-2008, 02:34 PM
2 spells and 2 divine feat options would make me happy

Righteous Fury(spell)

RIghteous Aura (spell)

Divine Might (Feat)

Divine Shield (Feat)

done and done

Yep...good for me. These spells and the AC suggestion from above. Nice.

llevenbaxx
06-18-2008, 03:26 PM
LOVE the spell and feat suggestions, hate the AC one, the totals are FAR to high already making anything moderate(or basically not max) 100% useless. More AC would be bad for the game as a whole. The "lets just keep jacking it up" mode of fixing things more often makes things worse.

Aesop
06-18-2008, 03:33 PM
LOVE the spell and feat suggestions, hate the AC one, the totals are FAR to high already making anything moderate(or basically not max) 100% useless. More AC would be bad for the game as a whole. The "lets just keep jacking it up" mode of fixing things more often makes things worse.

yeah I agree there. They already have max AC builds tossing around numbers in the 80s ... that kinda makes someone in the 50s pretty sad


Aesop

Borror0
06-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Righteous Fury(spell)

RIghteous Aura (spell)

Divine Might (Feat)

Divine Shield (Feat)

Actually...

Righteous Aura is unbalanced for obvious reasons...

Divine Might should be added as an enhancement, to follow the logic of the other Divine feats. If you put it at high level, it'd encourage taking more paladin levels, which is the issue.

Divine Shield would just make the whole AC issue worse... -_-


I think the devs are reluctant to boost the Aura because it might help the whole party too much. I agree. So give the Pallys some more personal AC. Like just a flat-out holy AC Bonus every 4 or 5 levels (like Monks), but make them wear at least Medium or Heavy Armor (so it won't work in conjunction with Monks, and gives a pretty serious reason to not splash 2 levels of rogue for evasion).

You're wrong.

If the devs are reluctant to boost Aura it's because it'll unbalance AC. You see, if you boost the capacity of a class to gain AC, everyone else is left behind. Say, for example, Eladrin boosts paladin AC like you suggest... what will happen of the fighters? They'll will totally be screwed. That goes for anyone that is not Lawful Good!! And, you could argue to give the same bonus to fighers... but then any character build for AC that is not a fighter or a paladin and that does not wear heavy armor is screwed. Overall, it's a poor decision for the game.

The way to "fix" AC comes from Nerfing! :eek:

Yes, you read right. I did say nerfing is good!! You see, if you reduce the specialisation needed to reach a decent amount of AC, then your chracter is stronger overall. Of course, nerfing the monsters is needed too, but it'd be much better. Your suggestion closes build options and forces thoe who wants to tank with their AC to walk a certain path; mine makes it easier for any character to get enough AC and thus enables more build options.

This is why anything that adds to AC should be added with caution.

Holgar
06-19-2008, 11:22 AM
You're wrong.

If the devs are reluctant to boost Aura it's because it'll unbalance AC. You see, if you boost the capacity of a class to gain AC, everyone else is left behind. Say, for example, Eladrin boosts paladin AC like you suggest... what will happen of the fighters? They'll will totally be screwed. That goes for anyone that is not Lawful Good!! And, you could argue to give the same bonus to fighers... but then any character build for AC that is not a fighter or a paladin and that does not wear heavy armor is screwed. Overall, it's a poor decision for the game.

First off, just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean everyone else is "wrong", dude. An intelligent discussion involves different valid arguments, not "I'm right and you're wrong" third grade nonsense.

Second, you think it's a problem that people not wearing heavy armor can't match the armor class of someone wearing heavy armor? It's called "armor" class, my friend. If you can't quite match my armor class while wearing a robe or padded armor, I'm not gonna feel too bad for ya. Because there are a lot of penalties for wearing heavy armor not shared by our needle-and-thread armored warriors.

Thirdly, I disagree strongly with your notion that fighters are hurt if paladins become the AC class. Let paladins have something unique. Give fighters more combat manuevers like Stunning Blow to express their uniqueness (and let those manuevers work on red names!). I don't agree that Paladins need to match the DPS of a barbarian to be balanced. Instead, let them have something else. Let everyone else watch in awe as the mighty Paladin lifts up his shield and scoffs at the Pit Fiend while all the twin rapier-wielding rangers and great axe wielding dwarven barbarians are licking their wounds and getting ready for the next assault.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Yours is equally valid. See, isn't that a nicer way to have discussions? :)

Holgar

Gunga
06-19-2008, 11:31 AM
First off, just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean everyone else is "wrong", dude. An intelligent discussion involves different valid arguments, not "I'm right and you're wrong" third grade nonsense.

Second, you think it's a problem that people not wearing heavy armor can't match the armor class of someone wearing heavy armor? It's called "armor" class, my friend. If you can't quite match my armor class while wearing a robe or padded armor, I'm not gonna feel too bad for ya. Because there are a lot of penalties for wearing heavy armor not shared by our needle-and-thread armored warriors.

Thirdly, I disagree strongly with your notion that fighters are hurt if paladins become the AC class. Let paladins have something unique. Give fighters more combat manuevers like Stunning Blow to express their uniqueness (and let those manuevers work on red names!). I don't agree that Paladins need to match the DPS of a barbarian to be balanced. Instead, let them have something else. Let everyone else watch in awe as the mighty Paladin lifts up his shield and scoffs at the Pit Fiend while all the twin rapier-wielding rangers and great axe wielding dwarven barbarians are licking their wounds and getting ready for the next assault.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Yours is equally valid. See, isn't that a nicer way to have discussions? :)

Holgar

Hallelujah, my brother.

Yaga_Nub
06-19-2008, 11:43 AM
See, isn't that a nicer way to have discussions? :)

Holgar

But we don't want to have nicer discussions and we would put GC out of a job if we continue to have nicer discussions.

Since the job market is sort of bleak right now in some areas I say that we do our part to keep GC gainfully employed.

So screw off and your suggestions suck!

PS (I really liked the suggestions but I'm helping GC :))

Holgar
06-19-2008, 11:51 AM
But we don't want to have nicer discussions and we would put GC out of a job if we continue to have nicer discussions.

Since the job market is sort of bleak right now in some areas I say that we do our part to keep GC gainfully employed.

So screw off and your suggestions suck!

PS (I really liked the suggestions but I'm helping GC :))

:)

Accelerando
06-19-2008, 12:27 PM
But we don't want to have nicer discussions and we would put GC out of a job if we continue to have nicer discussions.

Since the job market is sort of bleak right now in some areas I say that we do our part to keep GC gainfully employed.

So screw off and your suggestions suck!

PS (I really liked the suggestions but I'm helping GC :))

You got a little bit of something on your nose there... no there... no here right where I am pointing... HERE... what am I a mirror dude? do I look like you? its right here!

:D

Borror0
06-19-2008, 12:58 PM
Second, you think it's a problem that people not wearing heavy armor can't match the armor class of someone wearing heavy armor? It's called "armor" class, my friend. If you can't quite match my armor class while wearing a robe or padded armor, I'm not gonna feel too bad for ya. Because there are a lot of penalties for wearing heavy armor not shared by our needle-and-thread armored warriors.:)

It's called "armor" class, huh? Last time there was the word armor in light armor. there was the word armor in armor bonus, like the one that can be given by a few bracers or robes in this game. It is not because hevy armor confess better armor bonus that it is the only way to obtain good armor class. This actually why dexterity also confess a bonus to armor class. So, while a paladin had a better amor, the rogue in light armor will be more agile and thus can dodge the hits better.

What you're doing is silly, from developement point of view.

You see, unlike some seem to think, AC is a build option and not a class feature. You can build any class for Armor Class and be efficient at it, with the exception of the barbarian because he got penalties at it. Heck, he is only profient with light and medium armor, and even loose a few of his abilities if in heavy armor. Lastly, he can't Rage while in Combat Expertise. But all other classes, without exception, can have a decent AC (although I'll admit it's quite counter productive with a sorcerer or a wizard). This is why fighters and clerics have heavy armor profiency, this is why armor lighter than heavy armor also exists.

What you are doing is furthermore reducing the number of those who can reach the treshold where AC actually matters, as we all know, the developers will always balance for the highest armor class. By adding anything to the game that will increase the armor class of only a few individual, you'll hurt all the others trying to have an AC that actually matters at end game and even possibly those that gets it too if there is a cost to it (feat, enhancement, item slot). After al, whether you get it 50% of the time at 50 AC, or at 55 gives you the same efficency. All you'll end up doing by adding more AC to the paladin class is reducing the number of builds that will have access to AC.

No, you won't get it less often, Turbine would want you to get hit less often, they would have lowered mobs to-hit.

No, you won't get it less often! Turbine will always balance for the highest numbers.

All that your suggestion will bring to the game, is further imbalance. You won't end up helping the paladins, they'll get it as often... but at a greater cost. It's for the same reason I suggest removing Bulwark of Good and Favored Defense, because they could lower to-hit and come to the same hit/miss ratio. So, if they would implement that change, it'd just weaken anyone attempting to get a decent AC.


Thirdly, I disagree strongly with your notion that fighters are hurt if paladins become the AC class. Let paladins have something unique. Give fighters more combat manuevers like Stunning Blow to express their uniqueness (and let those manuevers work on red names!). :)

Yes, but that would be pushing the fighter in a new direction.

Fighters have never been about tactic feats, neither in DDO nor in D&D. Making of them the "Kings of Stunning Blow" would go against many builds previously built, and thus would end up not solving the problems of many fighters. You may try to argue that they got enhancements to increae their DCs, but if you do the maths, it simply put them on par with barbarians.


I don't agree that Paladins need to match the DPS of a barbarian to be balanced.:)

I NEVER said that!

However, you got to understand that S&B DPS is quickly falling back way behind TwF and ThF. The same applies to fighter and paladin DPS is falling way behind the DPS of other classes. If you want, I can repost everything that other classes got, I have it posted on a few threads about paladins already. The same thing is happenning with TwF and ThF simply getting much better of ThF (mostly TwF because of the double procs).

It's not about getting them to the DPS barbarians have, but rather closing the gap that has slowly installed between S&B and DPS.


Instead, let them have something else. Let everyone else watch in awe as the mighty Paladin lifts up his shield and scoffs at the Pit Fiend while all the twin rapier-wielding rangers and great axe wielding dwarven barbarians are licking their wounds and getting ready for the next assault.:)

The problem is, if Turbine would have wanted that, they would have put Harry's to-hit lower than it is


Anyway, that's just my opinion. Yours is equally valid. See, isn't that a nicer way to have discussions? :)

I'm not into that politicly correct junk myself. You're wrong, period.

You're entitled to think you're right, and to think I'm wrong. The whole point of an argument is to try to convince the other that you are actually right. For that, you will have to understand and refute the others' arguments. You may conceed points to progress further (after doesn't mean that your opponent doesn't have any right concerns) or change your point of viw through an argument, but you can state at any time that the other is wrong... because you believe so.

Pretending aything else is trying to fart butterflies.

Accelerando
06-19-2008, 01:08 PM
Hay, has this ^ guy said anything in this thread I might actually want to read. I squelched him like 5 pages ago, just trying to catch up.

Do paladins still suck or have the tables turned?
Does the previous post mention barbarians or has that sticking point been dropped?
What is the party line today?

Gunga
06-19-2008, 01:14 PM
It's called "armor" class, huh? Last time there was the word armor in light armor. there was the word armor in armor bonus, like the one that can be given by a few bracers or robes in this game. It is not because hevy armor confess better armor bonus that it is the only way to obtain good armor class. This actually why dexterity also confess a bonus to armor class. So, while a paladin had a better amor, the rogue in light armor will be more agile and thus can dodge the hits better.

What you're doing is silly, from developement point of view.

You see, unlike some seem to think, AC is a build option and not a class feature. You can build any class for Armor Class and be efficient at it, with the exception of the barbarian because he got penalties at it. Heck, he is only profient with light and medium armor, and even loose a few of his abilities if in heavy armor. Lastly, he can't Rage while in Combat Expertise. But all other classes, without exception, can have a decent AC (although I'll admit it's quite counter productive with a sorcerer or a wizard). This is why fighters and clerics have heavy armor profiency, this is why armor lighter than heavy armor also exists.

What you are doing is furthermore reducing the number of those who can reach the treshold where AC actually matters, as we all know, the developers will always balance for the highest armor class. By adding anything to the game that will increase the armor class of only a few individual, you'll hurt all the others trying to have an AC that actually matters at end game and even possibly those that gets it too if there is a cost to it (feat, enhancement, item slot). After al, whether you get it 50% of the time at 50 AC, or at 55 gives you the same efficency. All you'll end up doing by adding more AC to the paladin class is reducing the number of builds that will have access to AC.

No, you won't get it less often, Turbine would want you to get hit less often, they would have lowered mobs to-hit.

No, you won't get it less often! Turbine will always balance for the highest numbers.

All that your suggestion will bring to the game, is further imbalance. You won't end up helping the paladins, they'll get it as often... but at a greater cost. It's for the same reason I suggest removing Bulwark of Good and Favored Defense, because they could lower to-hit and come to the same hit/miss ratio. So, if they would implement that change, it'd just weaken anyone attempting to get a decent AC.



Yes, but that would be pushing the fighter in a new direction.

Fighters have never been about tactic feats, neither in DDO nor in D&D. Making of them the "Kings of Stunning Blow" would go against many builds previously built, and thus would end up not solving the problems of many fighters. You may try to argue that they got enhancements to increae their DCs, but if you do the maths, it simply put them on par with barbarians.



I NEVER said that!

However, you got to understand that S&B DPS is quickly falling back way behind TwF and ThF. The same applies to fighter and paladin DPS is falling way behind the DPS of other classes. If you want, I can repost everything that other classes got, I have it posted on a few threads about paladins already. The same thing is happenning with TwF and ThF simply getting much better of ThF (mostly TwF because of the double procs).

It's not about getting them to the DPS barbarians have, but rather closing the gap that has slowly installed between S&B and DPS.



The problem is, if Turbine would have wanted that, they would have put Harry's to-hit lower than it is



I'm not into that politicly correct junk myself. You're wrong, period.

You're entitled to think you're right, and to think I'm wrong. The whole point of an argument is to try to convince the other that you are actually right. For that, you will have to understand and refute the others' arguments. You may conceed points to progress further (after doesn't mean that your opponent doesn't have any right concerns) or change your point of viw through an argument, but you can state at any time that the other is wrong... because you believe so.

Pretending aything else is trying to fart butterflies.

Lots of words here again, Borr!

Giving a divine increase to AC is such a great idea that....oops...what the...I just farted a butterfly.

My opinion is that I don't agree with your disjointed and lengthy ideas of how to "fix" palis, but I do agree with the many other people in this thread who call for a few spells and to accentuate the defensive nature of the paladin class, by way of AC.

PS: There you go, cache.

Borror0
06-19-2008, 01:20 PM
Lots of words here again, Borr!

Yes, that is called explaining yourself.

I disagree, so I explain my disagreement to the poster. I know you can't understand that, as your unwillingness to understand and/or refute my argument shows. If you want to pretend everything is fine, then fine by me. After all, you think everything is fine... oh, right... paladins need more AC. Isn't that a contradiction? :eek:


Giving a divine increase to AC is such a great idea that....oops...what the...I just farted a butterfly.

You say so, but you don't even bother explaining me why. You just say "They need it". That's not making a point, that's dogmatic speech.

Turial
06-19-2008, 01:28 PM
...Because there are a lot of penalties for wearing heavy armor not shared by our needle-and-thread armored warriors....
Holgar

What penalties do heavy armor bring to this game that aren't also shared by medium or light armor?

Coldest
06-19-2008, 01:29 PM
You can not argue with Borro, he is a Wiki Wizard, he is a Wiki Wizard, he is a Wiki Wizard.
He will tell you "you are wrong and not a Wiki Wizard", not a Wiki Wizard, not a Wiki Wizard.

bandyman1
06-19-2008, 01:29 PM
I don't see the idea of " nerfing " AC helping anything.

Why, because if you truly want fighters and paladins to stand out, then it's pointless.

If I can get the same AC as a pally just as easily ( and before you start spamming this thread with your " uber " ranger's AC, understand that this is the key phrase here ) on a ranger or barb specced for DPS, why the hell would I play a pally or fighter again? So I can play a character with 30-40% less DPS and the same AC???

I understand your point Borr, that the Devs will always adjust content for players with uber ACs. That's a granted. But nerfing back ACs so that any class can easily attain it, makes AC builds pointless, and makes the sacrifices people made to attain that AC pointless. You want a " tank " AC? You need to cut some corners somewhere else. And that's the way it should be.

Borror0
06-19-2008, 01:29 PM
What penalties do heavy armor bring to this game that aren't also shared by medium or light armor?

Slower movement... oops?:D

Gunga
06-19-2008, 01:30 PM
Yes, that is called explaining yourself.

I disagree, so I explain my disagreement to the poster. I know you can't understand that, as your unwillingness to understand and/or refute my argument shows. If you want to pretend everything is fine, then fine by me. After all, you think everything is fine... oh, right... paladins need more AC. Isn't that a contradiction? :eek:



You say so, but you don't even bother explaining me why. You just say "They need it". That's not making a point, that's dogmatic speech.

Yeah. I also don't feel the need to explain to you what a paladin is, because you are the wiki wizard and should know better. If you don't understand why I'd like to see paladins with a few more spells (mentioned ad nauseum) and the ability to reach higher ac than they currently can, than you should hit the books.

If you can't find the points that I'm making in the above, I'll be happy to number them again for you. :D

Borror0
06-19-2008, 01:31 PM
You can not argue with Borro, he is a Wiki Wizard, he is a Wiki Wizard, he is a Wiki Wizard.
He will tell you "you are wrong and not a Wiki Wizard", not a Wiki Wizard, not a Wiki Wizard.

If you're laughing of the title, laugh all you want.

I hav changed my point of view mutliple times in paladin debates, but if someone argues like Gunga, it's not going to happen. All that Gunga does is stating his point of view, without explaining why he think differently of I... that's not going to lead anywhere,

Borror0
06-19-2008, 01:33 PM
Than you should hit the books.

What books? What knowledge am I missing? Beause it seems quite obvious to you, but I'm not seeing it.

Mhykke
06-19-2008, 01:39 PM
I don't see the idea of " nerfing " AC helping anything.

Why, because if you truly want fighters and paladins to stand out, then it's pointless.

If I can get the same AC as a pally just as easily ( and before you start spamming this thread with your " uber " ranger's AC, understand that this is the key phrase here ) on a ranger or barb specced for DPS, why the hell would I play a pally or fighter again? So I can play a character with 30-40% less DPS and the same AC???

I understand your point Borr, that the Devs will always adjust content for players with uber ACs. That's a granted. But nerfing back ACs so that any class can easily attain it, makes AC builds pointless, and makes the sacrifices people made to attain that AC pointless. You want a " tank " AC? You need to cut some corners somewhere else. And that's the way it should be.

I don't think Bor meant that everyone should have equal AC, but just that every should have equal access to it. This wouldn't mean that a barb or ranger specced for DPS would have the same AC as a sword and board paladin or fighter. It would just mean that if that barb or ranger gave up DPS to spec for AC, they could achieve the same AC that a fighter or paladin that gives up DPS and specs for AC gets.

Twerpp
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
yeah I agree there. They already have max AC builds tossing around numbers in the 80s ... that kinda makes someone in the 50s pretty sad


Aesop

50's IS sad.

If you cant hit 60 with reasonable party buffs and unboosted (recitation or barkskin, haste is a gimme) you are on the low side. If you consider yourself an AC tank, you either havent grinded out your gear or need to re-roll.

I think a lot of the Pally waahhhh!-ness is stemming from old school pally's probably from pre-acadamy training mod who cant face the fact that things are different now and they need to re-roll. They don't just want Paladin love, they want love for old gimped Paladins.