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Borror0
06-12-2008, 05:15 PM
Please leave frustration, anger and pointy sticks at the door. Thank you.

If you are going to come here to argue that paladins are fine and don't need anything, then don't post. If you have any intention of contributing to this thread, please do it in the mindset that paladins need some attention from the developers. We may disagree on "how much" attention we think they need, but that secondary. Point is, paladins are in need of some attention. If you disagree, please post in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1748716#post1748716) instead.

Thanks you.

A paladin's role:

A while ago, Eladrin defined paladins as such:



Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

I will partly disagree with this.

I will agree that paladins will be a much more defensive class than a barbarian or a ranger, or even a fighter. However, I don't want them to be centered on AC. Anyone who, like me, have an high level AC character knows how hard it is to get enough AC for the content that is released every Module, the two worst grinds being the +4 Insight from the Shroud and the +3 Dodge from the Chattering Ring. For how hard it is, AC should always be regarded as a build option, rather than class ability.

Armor Class is to paladins what a 3/4 BAB is to a cleric. They can build around it, or simply ignore it totally and focus on another achetype.

This is why, to me, paladins should be seen as a class with higher defensive capacities and support capability. By that I mean that a paladin spec'd for DPS will always take less damage than a barbarian put in the same situation, regardless of his AC. Also, that means not turning paladins into a support class who stands behing and swings his weapon from time to time to look busy. However, it's obvious to me that paladin will be a class centered around buffs, as that is what makes them so different from fighters.

So, basicly, we'd see three types of paladins:

Avenger - Using a two-handed weapon, burning with the desire to punish the wicked and smite the unbelievers.


Defender - Keeping his allies safe, behind his shield.


Sidekick - While he may lack the firepower of the Avenger or the defensive capacities of the Defender, he helps his allies through his spells and other class abilities. He may choose to either go for a defensive path, hiding behind a shield, or to be more geared towards offense wielding a two-handed weapon, but in either cases, his help will be nothing to overlook.


A paladin's spells:

To allow paladins to fulfill and spec into either of these roles, more spells should be added to the games.

There are three type of spells that should be implemented:

DPS spells (Self-buffs, lenght may vary)
Defensive spells (Mostly self-buffs, lenght may vary)
Support spells (Non-self buffs, preferably long lenght)

All well-built paladins will go dip in the three categories, at least in both defensive and DPS spells. After all, paladins are a melee class first of all.

DPS spells:

Before anyone tells me that paladins are supposed to be a low DPS, I will clarify a few points about paladin DPS.

To explain my point, I'll have to do a little of DDO history.

Pre-Module 3.3, paladins were pretty strong. Never would have you seen threads about improving paladins. That would have been total non-sense. However, came in Module 3.3 and its enhancement revamp. Then followed Module 4.0 and Gianthold, which made it so that mid-AC tanks ineffective on Elite. Back then, paladins weren't intimitanks but they were aiming the mid-AC and S&B DPS. After that, followed a bunch of improvement to other classes DPS, which, quite honestly, were needed.

Every single class got more than DPS, but paladins and fighters:



Barbarians: Critical Rage I & II, Power Attack I, II & III
Bards: Improved Inspire Courage, Warchanter
Clerics: SP upgrade from Update 4.2 & Metamagic change in Module 5.0
Fighters: Nothing at all, nerf to Armor Class
Paladins: Divine Favor was changed from +4 to +3 to follow Pen and Paper rules.
Rangers: 4th Favored Enemy, Favored Damage III, Ram's Might, Tempest I
Rogues: More Sneak Attacks and improvement to Sneak Attack Training
Sorcerers: SP upgrade from Update 4.2 & Metamagic change in Module 5.0
Wizards: SP upgrade from Update 4.2 & Metamagic change in Module 5.0


These, like Divine Favor, should all be self-only. Some of them should have a short lenght and, idealy, based on the paladin level to encourage staying pure for more SPs. Also, the whole point of adding more spells the goal is to aim at trying to add enough spells for a paladin to desire getting access to more spell slots.

Here are a few suggestion that I have found so far, they come from the Spell Compendium, Complete Divine, PHB II and Book of Exalted Deed. They have been slightly modified to work in DDO.



Find the Gap:

Level: Paladin 3, ranger 3
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Description: Give it the same bonus to to-hit given to incorporeal creatures, or simply a bonus of X to to-hit.


Rhino's Rush:

Level: Paladin 1, ranger 1,
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds
Description:
You deal +X damage for the next 6s seconds where X is half your paladin level.
CANNOT BE EXTENDED.


Righteous Fury:

Level: Paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description: Giving +4 Sacred Strength and 5 Temporary HP/level up to 50.


Undead Bane weapon:

Level: Cleric 4, paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description: Adds Undead Bane to your weapon for 1 minute/level, possibly upgrading to Greater Undead Bane at later levels.



Defensive spells:



Blessing of Bahamut

Level: Paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Description:

You gain damage reduction of 10/magic for the spell’s duration.

PS: DR/magic is probably horrible in DDO, so something like DR/Evil.


Glory of the Martyr

Level: Paladin 4
Target: One creature/level
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description:

Like shield other, this spell wards the subjects, creating a mystic connection between them and you so that some of their wounds are transferred to you. The subjects each gain a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. All the subjects take only half damage from all wounds and attacks that deal them hit point damage.

The amount of damage not taken by all the warded creatures is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and disintegration, are not affected. If a subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between you and the subjects, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subjects.

If you die while this spell is in effect, the spell ends in a burst of positive energy that restores 1d8 hit points to each subject.

PS: The healing on death could be improved.


Mantle of Good/Law:

Level: Cleric 3, paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description: Gain SR equal to 12 + caster level. Self only.

PS: The reason implementing the two is quests like Running with the Devil where Good is useless, but Law may be useful.


Resurgence:

Level: Cleric 1, paladin 1
Target: Friend, self
Duration: 1 minute + 6 seconds/level
Description: Allow target to roll his saving throw a second time if failed.


Resurgence, Mass:

Level: Cleric 3, paladin 3
Target: Friend, self
Duration: 1 minute + 6 seconds/level
Description: Same as Resurgence but on multiple targets.


Shield Others:

Level: Cleric 2, paladin 2
Target: Friend, self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description:

This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including that dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you.

Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.



Support spells:

I have only got a few, but I'm sure we could import a few cleric spells like they just did for Stalwart Pact.

Some of you might have seen me argue that Resist Energy wasn't so great because every single cleric and caster has it, well the idea here would be to fight that back a little. If we increase the number of available good low level buffs, it gets interesting for a support paladin as he gets to grab the spells the cleric cannot afford. They just have to talk together and prep their spells.



Healing Spirit:

Level: Bard 4, cleric 4, paladin 3
Target: Close
Duration: 3 seconds/level
Description: Summons a light ball to heal 1d8 HP, every 6 seconds.


Revenance:

Level: Bard 4, cleric 4, paladin 3
Target: Dead ally touched (Soul Stone)
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description: Brings target ally back from the dead for 1 minute/level.


Divine enhancements:

Another thing that would help paladins fitting in their role would be divine feats.

At a bare minimum, add the current existing one from the cleric selection to the paladin enhancements list.

That means:

Divine Vitality
Divine Healing
Divine Cleansing

The minimum level to get them would be the level at which clerics could take it, plus four, to represent the fac that paladins get their Turn Undead at level 4.

Then, add a few more Divine feats as enhancements. That would increase the value of Cha on paladin builds.

So, what do you guys think? Comments? Suggestions?

Remember, leave frustration at the door.

Alcides
06-12-2008, 05:46 PM
Sorry for any repeats from the original list. This is a list of Paladin spells I made about a year ago, I went ahead and updated it for a repost.

Aligned Aura
Level: Cleric 4, Paladin 4
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Complete Champion (p116)
Description:

The target of this spell chooses a non-neutral aspect of their alignment(Chaos, Evil, Good, Law). Creatures within a 20 foot radius of the target that have same alignment aspect gain a bonus; creatures within a 20 foot radius of the target that have an opposite alignment aspect gain a penalty as follows.

Chaos: +1 Attack Bonus; -1 Save Penalty
Evil: +1 Damage Roll Bonus; -1 AC Penalty
Good: +1 Save Bonus; -1 Attack Penalty
Law: +1 AC Bonus; -1 Damage Roll Penalty

Aura of Cold, Lesser
Level: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Paladin 4, Ranger 4
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Frostburn (p88)
Description:

All Opponents within a 5 foot radius of the target take d6 cold damage each round.

Axiomatic Storm
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Saving Throw: none
Source: Spell Compendium (p22)
Description:

A driving rain falls around the paladin. All creatures within a 20 foot radius of the paladin suffer a -4 penalty to Spot, Listen, and Search checks; a -4 penalty to ranged attacks going through the area of the spell; Chaotic creatures take 2d6 damage per round(Chaotic outsiders take double damage). Each round a single chaotic outsider within a 20 foot radius of the paladin is struck by a 5d6 gout of acid.

Benediction
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 2
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Source: Complete Champion (p116)
Description:

The target of the spell gains a +2 luck bonus to saves. Before the duration of the spell expires the target can choose to reroll a single attack roll or saving throw keeping the second result. Using the reroll option ends this spell.

Blessed Aim
Level: Cleric 1, Paladin 1
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p31)
Description:

The paladin and all allies within a 30 foot radius of the paladin gain a +2 morale bonus on ranged attack rolls.

Blessing of the Righteous
Level: Cleric 4, Paladin 4
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Player's Handbook 2 (p104)
Description:

The target of this spell and all allies within 40 feet of the target gain an extra d6 holy damage with melee and ranged attacks. These attack are also good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Conduit of Life
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 2
Target: Self
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Source: Complete Champion (p118)
Description:

The target of this spell heals 2d10 hps plus 1 hp per caster level when subject to a healing effect. This spell expires once it has healed once.

Conviction
Level: Cleric 1
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p52)
Description:

The target of this spell gains a +2 morale bonus to saving throws plus 1 per every 6 caster levels to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 18.

Conviction, Mass
Level: Cleric 3
Target: Self, ally
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Source: Spell Compendium(p52)
Description:

The target of this spell and all allies within a 20 foot radius of the target gain the effects of the Conviction Spell.

Deific Bastion
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 3
Target: Shield or Heavy Armor
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Complete Champion (p119)
Description:

The target armor or shield gains and enhancement bonus to AC equal to 1 plus 1 per 3 caster levels above 6. In addition, the armor or shield gains a special ability depending upon the caster's deity.

Denounce
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 2
Target: Nongood Outsider Opponent
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrant's of the Nine Hells (p100)
Save: Will(negates)
Description:

The target of this spell must successfully make a will save or take a -4 insight penalty to attack rolls, saves, and checks. The target of this spell may spend a full round action to gain another saving throw to negate this spell.

Diamondsteel
Level: Paladin 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3
Target: Suit of Armor
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p64)

The suit of Armor grants damage reduction X/adamantine where X is half the armor bonus granted by the armor.

Divine Presence
Level: Cleric 2, Druid 2, Paladin 2
Target: Self
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Source: Complete Champion (p119)
Description:

The target of this spell gains a bonus to intimidate checks dependant on alignment. If the target is good or neutral this bonus is a sacred bonus; otherwise, it is a profane bonus. The bonus is +5 if the target uses the inimidate skill on an opponent that does not have the same deity as the target. The bonus is +10 if the opponent has one opposing alignment Component as the target. The bonus is +15 if the opponent's alignment is the exact opposite of the target's alignment.

Draconic Might
Level: Paladin 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p72)
Description:

The target of this spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Charisma; a +4 natural armor bonus to AC; and immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Sorcerers treat their caster level as 1 level higher for purposes of casting this spell.

Energized Shield, Lesser
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 1
Target: Shield
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p79)
Description:

When casting this spell choose an energy type, the target of this spell grants an extra d6 damage of the chosen elemental type when used to attack and grants Energy Resistance 5 for the chosen energy type.

Energized Shield
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 2
Target: Shield
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p79)
Description:

When casting this spell choose an energy type, the target of this spell grants an extra 2d6 damage of the chosen elemental type when used to attack and grants Energy Resistance 10 for the chosen energy type.

Faith Healing
Level: Paladin 1
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: Permanent
Source: Spell Compendium (p87)
Description:

The target of this spell gains 8 hps plus 1 hp per caster level. This spell has no effect if the target does not have the same deity as the caster.

Favor of the Martyr
Level: Paladin 4
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p89)
Description:

The target of this spell gains immunity to nonlethal damage. In addition the target of also suppresses the following effects: charm, compulsion, pain, daze, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea, sickness, staggered or stunned. The target remains conscious while above -10 hps, and does not lose hit points for acting. If the target has any of the effects that this spell suppresses at the end of this spell then the target is still subject to those effects.

Fell the Greatest Foe
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 2, Ranger 2
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p90)
Description:

The target of this spell deals an extra d6 damage for every size category larger the target's opponent is than the target on a successful melee attack.

Flame of Faith
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 2
Target: Nonmagical weapon
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p95)
Description:

For the duration of the spell, the target of this spell acts as a +1 flaming burst weapon.

Freedom of Breath
Level: Cleric 2, Druid 2, Paladin 2, Ranger 2
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 10 Minutes/level
Source: Sandstorm (p116)
Description:

For the duration of the spell, the target does not have to make constitution checks to avoid suffocation as long as there is a miniscule amount of air to breath. The target is immune to nausea and gains a +2 bonus to saves and constitution checks to resist poisonous vapors.

Hand of Divinity
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 2
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 1 minute/level
Description:

The target of this spell gains a +2 Sacred bonus to saving throws if they are of good alignment or a +2 Profane bonus to saving throws if they are of evil alignment.

Healing Spirit
Level: Bard 4, Cleric 4, Druid 4, Paladin 3
Target: Any
Duration: 3 Seconds/level
Save: Will half(harmless)
Source: Player's Handbook 2 (p114)
Description:

This spell conjures a 1ft sphere of light(fly 30 feet). Once per round, the healing sphere can move and heal a creature for d8 hps or damage an undead creature for d8 hps.

Holy Storm
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 3
Target: Self
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Saving Throw: none
Source: Spell Compendium (p115)
Description:

A driving rain falls around the paladin. All creatures within a 20 foot radius of the paladin suffer a -4 penalty to Spot, Listen, and Search checks; a -4 penalty to ranged attacks going through the area of the spell; Evil creatures take 2d6 damage per round(Evil outsiders take double damage).

Lionheart
Level: Paladin 1
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p132)
Description:

The target gains immunity to fear effects.

Meteoric Strike
Level: Cleric 5, Druid 4, Paladin 4
Target: Opponent
Duration: 1 round or until discharged.
Source: Player's Handbook 2 (p120)
Save: None or Reflex(half)
Description:

Your next successful melee attack deals and extra d6 fire damage + 1d6 point per four caster levels to the target. The flames do equal damage to all opponents within a five foot radius of the target Reflex(half).

Righteous Aura
Level: Paladin 4
Target: Self
Duration: 1 hour/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p177)
Save: Reflex, half.
Description:

The paladin gains a +4 Sacred bonus to Charisma. If the paladin is killed while still under the effect of this spell the paladin's body detonates dealing 2d6 per caster level(maximum 20d6) to all evil creatures within a 20 foot radius of the paladin. Any good creatures within the blast radius are healed for the same amount that evil creatures would be harmed. The paladin cannot be brought back to life with a Raise Dead spell since the paladin's body is destroyed on detonation.

Sacred Haven
Level: Paladin 4
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p178)
Description:

The target of this spell and all allies within a 30' radius of the target gain a +2 Sacred Bonus to AC.

Seed of Life
Level: Cleric 4, Druid 5, Paladin 4
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 60 seconds + 6 seconds / level
Source: Complete Champion (p127)
Description:

The target of this spell gains fast healing 2. If the target wishes to end the spell prematurely, the target gains 1d4 hps per 12 seconds remaining in the spells duration.

Shield of Warding
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 2
Target: Self, Ally
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p188)
Description:

While wearing a shield the recipient of this spell gains a +1 sacred bonus to AC and reflex saves plus 1 per every 5 caster levels to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 20.

Silverbeard
Level: Paladin 1
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p190)
Description:

The target gains a +2 Sacred bonus to AC and a +2 Circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks against dwarves.

Silvered Weapon
Level: Paladin 1, Ranger 2
Target: Weapon
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Book of Exalted Deeds (p88)
Description:

Weapon is silver instead of it's normal material for the duration of the spell.

Soul of Light
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 2
Target: Self
Duration: 1 hour
Source: Dragon Magic (p73)
Description:

whenever the target of Soul of Light gains hps from a conjuration (healing) spell, that target heals an extra 2 hps per level of the conjuration (healing) spell.

Turn Anathema
Level: Cleric 2, Paladin 2
Target: Self
Duration: 10 minutes / level
Source: Complete Champion (p129)
Description:

Choose an alignment Component that does not oppose any of the target's alignment components. Opponents with the opposite alignment component as the one you choose can now be affected by your turn undead attempts as though those opponents are undead.

Undead Bane Weapon
Level: Cleric 4, Paladin 3
Target: 1 Weapon or 50 ammunition
Duration: 1 hour/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p226)
Description:

The target of this spell gains the Undead Bane special ability in addition to any other properties it has.

Weapon of the Deity
Level: Cleric 3, Paladin 3
Target: Weapon that is the favored weapon of the caster's deity.
Duration: 6 seconds/level
Source: Spell Compendium (p237)
Description:

The target of the spell gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls as well as an additional +1 bonus per 3 caster levels to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 18. In addition, the weapon gains a special ability depending on the deity of the caster.

Twerpp
06-12-2008, 06:15 PM
Paladin was my first choice ever for PnP class, I had a VERY strict DM who watched you roll 3d6 x6 in order STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA and then you chose your class based upon the stats. I lucked out and rolled a 17 Str and Cha, 14 Wis and Con and nothing under a 9. The rest of the group shizzed themselves as I the first Paladin of their party was born. I really do love Paladins man.

I think based on the way this game works Pallys (especially Defender type) should have FULL access to intimidate or another AoE aggro ability. Divine Righteousness is not the same, it won't draw every mob in like flies as a mass intimidate will. Pallys should really get some mad love in the tanking department.

Righteous Fury: ...another 50hps for dwarves I dont dig that part, but as someone said before you cant punish a whole class because one race has been gifted that. I dont think anyone would argue with +4 STR though given the recent Rams Might action. The 1 min per level duration would make it a for sure to take spell and you can pretty much just tack on +4 str and 50 hps to your build...ie Paladins would certainly have no right to complain about perma-rage barbs.

Undead Bane Weapon: does it stack with holy weapon :eek:

Glory/Shield others...OUCH, JUST OUCH! You must be into pain man theres no way I'd cast that on the schizo psychotic mass-murderer nukers I run with! Thats a death sentence. However... a great tanking ability, if you have a party smart enough to assist in keeping you up.

Mass Resurgence: I like that one, its long enough to last a round with Arraetrikos even and maybe less squishies who dont know how to use fire pro will drop.

Pallies with DV's: I believe in two and only two cleric builds, Humans with DV's or Dwarves with a shiz-load of hp's. Pallies with DV's would rock, though I prob wouldnt invest in DVIII ever, and if the enhancements for pally were this good...I cant promise I'd spare even 1 AP lol.

Pretty good stuff man...I really do hope to see some of it in one form or another soon. (after the fighter-love mod!)

Borror0
06-12-2008, 06:24 PM
Undead Bane Weapon: does it stack with holy weapon :eek:

I leave that balancing issue to the Devs. Can't be worse than Favored Enemy Undead, eh?;)


Pallies with DV's: I believe in two and only two cleric builds, Humans with DV's or Dwarves with a shiz-load of hp's. Pallies with DV's would rock, though I prob wouldnt invest in DVIII ever, and if the enhancements for pally were this good...I cant promise I'd spare even 1 AP lol.

Not only DVs, but even DH! Slow regen in a fight, add that to Lay on Hands and Healing Spirit...:)

Borror0
06-12-2008, 06:28 PM
I missed that comment.


I think based on the way this game works Pallys (especially Defender type) should have FULL access to intimidate or another AoE aggro ability. Divine Righteousness is not the same, it won't draw every mob in like flies as a mass intimidate will. Pallys should really get some mad love in the tanking department.

Personally, I'd like to see two changes done.

First, you change Diplomacy to work in two different ways. The first one work exaclty like Intimidate currently does. You press to gain aggro for 6s, with a cooldown of 6s.
The other is the current Diplomacy.

Then, to not make Diplomacy much better than Intimidate you add Demoralize Opponent on it, as per PnP. Basicly, any intimidated mobs become shaken.

gpk
06-12-2008, 06:31 PM
Note: A long while back I had a asked Shield Other and gotten a dev reply; the answer was something like "it probably will never make it in".

Borror0
06-12-2008, 06:34 PM
Note: A long while back I had a asked Shield Other and gotten a dev reply; the answer was something like "it probably will never make it in".

I know, but I don't get the reason. :p

Twerpp
06-12-2008, 06:47 PM
I missed that comment.



Personally, I'd like to see two changes done.

First, you change Diplomacy to work in two different ways. The first one work exaclty like Intimidate currently does. You press to gain aggro for 6s, with a cooldown of 6s.
The other is the current Diplomacy.

Then, to not make Diplomacy much better than Intimidate you add Demoralize Opponent on it, as per PnP. Basicly, any intimidated mobs become shaken.


Hehe, that would again make intimidate the far better choice for pally, as shaken mobs have -2 to-hit, thus FURTHER increasing their godlike AC!!!! ;)

gpk
06-12-2008, 06:59 PM
Wasn't Divine Favor changed from a max +5 to a max +3 ? Fix it! ;)

Talcyndl
06-12-2008, 07:31 PM
If we're allowed to go back to 2nd Edition PnP...

How about Freedom of Movement?

It was a Pally spell back in the day. Don't see why it can't be again in DDO.

Mhykke
06-12-2008, 08:01 PM
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii143/mykeuva/paladin.jpg

Mapa
06-12-2008, 11:42 PM
Borror, can we agree that the problem with Paladins that you have so rightly pointed out is not in the lower levels. Where others start to pull away is about level 9 or 10. Ask the question, Why invite a Paladin to your party? At lower levels Pali's have good DPS and AC plus Auras that help everyone. Now jump to capped characters putting together a Shroud or Hound run. Auras are not enough to push AC or saves over any noticable plateau, a Barb, Ranger, or even a few Rogue builds provide better DPS and AC is useless. Putting those SP to use is a good idea. A nice mix of self only, mass buffs and auto abilites are the answer. I think you covered the spells very well.

The classic paladin is a combination of all the great heros of legend:

Before battle the Paladin says a prayer and ask his god to bless his arm and weapon. How about the ability to add short duration Lawful of Pure Good effects to your weapon of choice? If that seems over the top just make it of pure good. Don't make me bug a cleric or buy a stack of junk blank weapons. My Holy Avenger is a family heirloom, the reward at the end of a long quest of personal discovery, or a Masterwork made just for me, not a rusty piece of overpriced junk from House J.

A high level Paladin is a Champion of all that is right and good. Forget Intimidate, evil should be drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Make it a stance-like ability that can be toggled with the cooldown cycle decreasing as you level up or an auto intimidate as the evil critter enters your Aura radius. This radius should increase with level for the purposes of this ability or be based on your Charisma. Who said being the hero was easy... or safe.;)

A Paladin feels corruption and evil down to the bone, I propose an ability much like Spot that applies to evil creatures.

I'm just throwing ideas against the wall. I feel that if we can change the arguement from one of balance with other melees into a discussion of what crosses your mind when you think of the fictional and quasi-historical characters that spawned the idea of a Paladin, some minds will be changed to our side.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 12:38 AM
Hehe, that would again make intimidate the far better choice for pally, as shaken mobs have -2 to-hit, thus FURTHER increasing their godlike AC!!!! ;)

Yes, but they would have an taunt button, at the very least.

Asirin
06-13-2008, 12:51 AM
I would be more than satisfied if they just fixed divine favor to the original +5 bonus and made it last one minute per every 3 levels.
Sure the current spell mimics the PnP version but this isnt PnP. :)

Depravity
06-13-2008, 01:09 AM
A high level Paladin is a Champion of all that is right and good. Forget Intimidate, evil should be drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Make it a stance-like ability that can be toggled with the cooldown cycle decreasing as you level up or an auto intimidate as the evil critter enters your Aura radius. This radius should increase with level for the purposes of this ability or be based on your Charisma. Who said being the hero was easy... or safe.;)


I like this. Seems kind of fitting for wandering around in shiny armor, loaded down with holy symbols. In fact I prefer it to giving pallys intimidate or mimicry thereof. (then again, I don't play a pure paladin)

I always saw the "Come get some" effect of intimidation as a chaotic effect, a wild challenge to the forces that be. Proper knightly duty would be to challenge to single combat (a much more lawful course of action). I could see changing diplo to include a challenge option, so you can pull a single mob off of a friend, and making that change an enhancement, just 1 AP, that you can purchase at a low-to-middish paladin level. Again, proper knightly behavior/training.

But radiating the power of your god and ticking off every evil critter that gets close enough to see you? Pure (idiotic, and therefore appropriate) heroism. Make it an every-two-second mini intimidate based off of level and charisma. Maybe have it generate the hate a succesful smite would incur? And make it susceptible to divine righteousness (I think thats it - the extra hate generating enhancement), so you can go from pulling in otherwise undistracted enemies to blazing with a threat to all that is evil.

Depravity
06-13-2008, 02:04 AM
Okay, long one coming up.

Backstory: sometime during discussion in a "we want some of those missing weapons" thread, bout a month ago, I decided the Holy Sword spell gave you the option to add +1 crit threat or range to the generated sword. Angelus_Dead ended up getting the better of me, and such is Not To Be. So I let the back of my brain chew on it as an idea, for my own forum posting redemption, and some of the following idiocy spilled out:

Iconic paladin abilities:
Lay on Hands (we have it, haven't heard too many complaints)
High Quality Mount (not going to happen)
Holy Avenger (sorta got it, and it is actually a pretty nice beat stick)
Auras (saves are nice, no arguing, but given current metagame climate AC seems pointless)

Problem:
Paladins are almost entirely front loaded: the good abilities show up in the first few levels, and then just slowly build afterwords. Some interesting spells, but nothing that makes jaws drop. They need some mid to high level love to get people playing pure or near pure paladins.

Solution:
Make higher levels more appealing by application of unique abilities.


Proposal 1:
Holy Sword enhancement lines
Maybe four chances at enhancements - 14 16 18 20
Have options to make the sword nicer -
Advanced hit dice
Improved Crit Threat
Improved Crit Multiplier
Power 5 abilities - banish & disruption
Extra Hate
etc

Allow any given enhancement once - no +2 threat, +2 mult, etc. Sort of like human stat boost, you can only pick anything once

I'd recommend crit threat be applied post keen/IC, otherwise we just handed pallys crit rage II. Giving them the one boost would fit their role as more of a support/secondary DPS class.

This would make that holy sword more relevant elsewhere in the game, and it would get nicer the more pally levels you get



Proposal 2:
Faith of the Sword
Another Faith enhancement that plays off of the holy sword spell.
Instead of picking Holy Sword enhancements, you get a nice set as part of your faith, although this could also be implemented with some more toned-down sword enhancement options.
Also, if you use your faith's favored weapon, you get extra bonuses - would also be nice to have custom models for the weapons available nowhere else.

Lord of Blades:
Your holy sword instead becomes Transmuting with a set +6 profane bonus to damage that stacks with bladesworn transformation.
If used against a construct, it becomes whatever it is that house J sells you. Bad WF, killing your own kind.
If you choose a greatsword, it becomes wounding/weakening with a chance to do d4 bleeding wounds on every hit (I call it Fleshling Bane), DC tied to pally level and charisma. Grants IC:slash while it's at it.

Silver Flame:
Your sword picks up greater outsider bane. That's all outsiders. Think silver flame exorcism in a can.
If you choose a longbow (? don't feel like checking on it, feel free to correct me later), it also gains banishing, IC:ranged, and Banishing Burst: On a confirmed 20, it does a higher DC banish against target and a regular banish against all enemies within a smallish radius.

Undying Court:
Undying hate Undead. It's a positive/negative plane thing. Basically silver flame but for undead.

Sovereign Host:
Not sure how to pick up on the healing thing here, and I forget what the actual pantheon is like in the eberron sourcebook.
Suggestions welcome.
I was thinking the longsword would come with a healing pulse that would do a mass cure on crits (probably light or moderate to keep from being too cheesy), with a chance to remove status effects via a mechanic like a dispel roll.

Vulkoor:
Poison. Poison poison poison. Oh yeah, and some more poison. Iirc scorpion venom is constitution damage, so a con damage effect with a moderate fort save on it every swing that connects.
Shortwsword would just have to be W/P with a sneak attack bonus.



Proposal 3:
Faith of the Soul

Tie a new, kickarse, aura to the faith of the paladin, say at level 12

Lord of Blades:
Spirit of the Construct - +25% fortification (if we can knock down fort via the new rogue enhances, expect the mobs to do so too), and a +4 or so stacking save boost to everything WF are immune to.

Silver flame:
<insert fancy name here> - -2 to saves, attacks, and spell DCs for all outsiders in your radius. If you can't tell by now, I see silver flame as sort of the vigilante border patrol for the prime material plane.

Undying Court:
Again, like the silver flame one, just on undead.

Sovereign host:
Your aura heals everyone in it, slowly, maybe a 1hp per 30 seconds deal. This is just filler. The real meat is when you touch off a lay on hands - all allies in your aura get a percentage of the lay on hands, turning it into a mass healing effect. If you use Unyielding Sovereignty, it removes status effects in your aura.

Vulkoor:
This should be offensive, and again I have little idea for it. Possibly poison immunity, or it grants some sort of sneaky damage bonus to everyone in your area. Barbs will love that.



Again, my general idea was to give some mid level unique love to the paladins, with some paladin flavor, not just handing them something another class already has. I like the idea of locking them into the holy sword, making them moderately uber only so long as they wield their officially sanctioned weapons, like a real knight being granted his weapons by the church.

Auras could be tied to holy sword as well, being included in the sword faith lines.

Also, either line could reduce timers on the lower level faith abilities. Greater connection to your gods would allow you to pull off the nifty abilites more often. If both aura and sword faith lines were put in, maybe knock 2-3 minutes off for each you take. Say a bladesworn every 6 minutes.

Mhykke
06-13-2008, 05:56 AM
Proposal 2:
Faith of the Sword
Another Faith enhancement.........


I really don't think that paladin help should be tied with certain races only getting certain abilities. It should be for the class generally. I personally really dislike any trend of thought that paladin help should be tied to the faith lines.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 07:22 AM
A high level Paladin is a Champion of all that is right and good. Forget Intimidate, evil should be drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Make it a stance-like ability that can be toggled with the cooldown cycle decreasing as you level up or an auto intimidate as the evil critter enters your Aura radius. This radius should increase with level for the purposes of this ability or be based on your Charisma. Who said being the hero was easy... or safe.;)

No, this is unbalanced and un-PnP-like.

Intimidate is balanced because it has a cooldown, your check may be too low, there is a cost in skill points to get it, it has limited range around you. What you are proposing is an endless Intimidate that function automaticly. Intimidate takes a little of practice to use. You just don't mash the button every six minutes. You have to use at the right moment, if you mess up... you gotta wait 6 seconds.

Overpowered, unflavorful.


A Paladin feels corruption and evil down to the bone, I propose an ability much like Spot that applies to evil creatures.

Depending on what you mean, it may already exists in Pen and Paper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#detectEvil), what do you mean with that?


I always saw the "Come get some" effect of intimidation as a chaotic effect, a wild challenge to the forces that be. Proper knightly duty would be to challenge to single combat (a much more lawful course of action). I could see changing diplo to include a challenge option, so you can pull a single mob off of a friend, and making that change an enhancement, just 1 AP, that you can purchase at a low-to-middish paladin level.

Put it free, monks wants it too.

I'd not say a challenge option, but rather a "Over my dead body" thingy.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 07:32 AM
Problem:
Paladins are almost entirely front loaded: the good abilities show up in the first few levels, and then just slowly build afterwords. Some interesting spells, but nothing that makes jaws drop. They need some mid to high level love to get people playing pure or near pure paladins.

Solution:
Make higher levels more appealing by application of unique abilities.

Actually, as I have said in the OP, I think spells is the way to go over powerful enhancements.

If you ask me, I'd rather many small but useful upgrades to paladins, allowing them to diverisfy rather than converge in one way. Quite obviously, Armor Class will always be a very popular way to build a paladin. But AC isn't something you should focus a class around. It's not easy at all to get, and it's a way to build your character rather than a class feature.

As I have said previously, I want to see more than the AC paladin.


Proposal 1:
Holy Sword enhancement lines

Proposal 2:
Faith of the Sword

Proposal 3:
Faith of the Soul

Beurk.

I don't like any of it, it's:

Tied to races.
Unbalanced.
A festival of powerful abilities.

Adding abilities to weapons is tricky, you got to be really careful with it. You are not.

Alcides
06-13-2008, 07:36 AM
I always saw the "Come get some" effect of intimidation as a chaotic effect, a wild challenge to the forces that be. Proper knightly duty would be to challenge to single combat (a much more lawful course of action). I could see changing diplo to include a challenge option, so you can pull a single mob off of a friend, and making that change an enhancement, just 1 AP, that you can purchase at a low-to-middish paladin level. Again, proper knightly behavior/training.


The Knight class from Player's Handbook 2, gets an ability called Test of Mettle. Basically, the Knight expends a daily Knight's Challenge and issues a Test of Mettle to all creatures with a CR at least 2 levels lower than the knight with a 100 foot radius of the Knight. Each creature that fails a will save DC = (10 + 1/2 Knight's Class Level + Knight's Charisma bonus) must attack the Knight for 30 seconds plus 6 seconds per point of the Knight's Charisma bonus.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 07:37 AM
Hehe, that would again make intimidate the far better choice for pally, as shaken mobs have -2 to-hit, thus FURTHER increasing their godlike AC!!!! ;)

I say:

Remove the current Bulwark of Good enhancements.
Increase the base of Aura of Good to 2.
Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Remove Favored Defense enhancements.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.
Add Demoralize Opponent to Intimidate.
Add Silverbeard.

How does that sound?

gpk
06-13-2008, 07:45 AM
I say:

Remove the current Bulwark of Good enhancements.
Increase the base of Aura of Good to 2.
Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Remove Favored Defense enhancements.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.
Add Demoralize Opponent to Intimidate.
Add Silverbeard.How does that sound?

5. I'd limit Armor Mastery and Tower Shield mastery to the BAB 1:1 classes myself as they are the primary combatant classes (yes paladins are not support secondary combatants).

Other than that I've thought similar thoughts inthe past...

P.S. I think there should be metion of the whole BAB 15 attack slowdown fiasco as it hurts high level paladin DPS vs lower BAB classes.

Alcides
06-13-2008, 08:09 AM
I say:

Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.

How does that sound?

I totally agree with the Tower Shield Mastery line.
Armor Mastery should probably be limited to Melee classes at varying levels(ie 1-2 levels for rangers/paladins/barbarians, 3+ levels for fighters). If you opened all 3 levels to everyone you would detract from the value of having a fighter in a group. Or make the the current cost apply to melee classes and lower the cost for fighters.
If you're going to reduce the cost of Dwarven Armor Mastery I would make 3 lines of Armor Mastery, each line would apply to Light; Medium; and Heavy Armors respectively.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 08:11 AM
I'd limit Armor Mastery and Tower Shield mastery to the BAB 1:1 classes myself as they are the primary combatant classes (yes paladins are not support secondary combatants).

As for TSM, I tell myself that anyone who grabs the feat...

As for AM, well the way I see it is that way:

Barbarians

Barbarian Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light or medium armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Bards

Bard Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Clerics

Cleric Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light, medium or heavy armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Fighters

Fighter Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light, medium or heavy armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Paladins

Paladin Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light, medium or heavy armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Rangers

Ranger Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6

Rogues

Rogue Armor Mastery
Effect: +1 to Maximum Dexterity Bonus per rank while you're wearing light armor.
You get rank I at level 3, rank II at level 7 and rank III at level 11.
Cost: 2, 4, 6


Monks, wizards and sorcerers get nothing, as they are not profient with any armor.

The idea is that they are profient with that type of armor, thus should be able to use it like anyone profient with that type of amor.


P.S. I think there should be metion of the whole BAB 15 attack slowdown fiasco as it hurts high level paladin DPS vs lower BAB classes.

That deserves a thread dedicated to itself. You know, the kind of thread that will never die.

I'd be sutbborn enough to argue on that topic for a long time.

llevenbaxx
06-13-2008, 08:36 AM
Okay, long one coming up.

snipped.

Wow, really like those suggestions. Especially the one making Bladesworn Transformations actually worth using(Fleshling Bane teehee). Cool stuff.

Turial
06-13-2008, 09:12 AM
I say:

Remove the current Bulwark of Good enhancements.
Increase the base of Aura of Good to 2.
Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Remove Favored Defense enhancements.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.
Add Demoralize Opponent to Intimidate.
Add Silverbeard.How does that sound?

Looks like a solid way to make mid tier AC a little better if the mob to hit is brought it line. I also like the armor mastery breakdown you give as it makes it possible for some higher dex, but not fully maxed dex, characters to wear something besides outfits and robes.

The issue I have with ac is dev statements that follows the lines of "we gave mob x a to-hit bonus of y so that they only miss high 50 low 60 ac on a 7 or less," which translates to AC less than x-20 only will give you a 5% chance of being missed by the mobs you actually worry about.

SteeleTrueheart
06-13-2008, 09:23 AM
I say:

Remove the current Bulwark of Good enhancements.
Increase the base of Aura of Good to 2.
Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Remove Favored Defense enhancements.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.
Add Demoralize Opponent to Intimidate.
Add Silverbeard.

How does that sound?

I like all except for 1. Paladin Auras help the whole party not just the paladin so I think there is room to leave them in.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 09:29 AM
I like all except for 1. Paladin Auras help the whole party not just the paladin so I think there is room to leave them in.

Nope, false.

It's a lot of AC no one can get access to. It allows paladins to get more Armor Class than anyone else, thus the developer will balance accordlingly leaving the other classes behind. While it boosts the other players, it's not like if you had a paladin in all your parties. It's not a nerf, but a boost. You don't have to spend APs for AC and you can spend them somewhere else.

You'd still hit the same percentage as the last (obvious) step is to lower mobs' to-hit accordingly.

Ralmeth
06-13-2008, 09:37 AM
Borror, can we agree that the problem with Paladins that you have so rightly pointed out is not in the lower levels. Where others start to pull away is about level 9 or 10. Ask the question, Why invite a Paladin to your party? At lower levels Pali's have good DPS and AC plus Auras that help everyone. Now jump to capped characters putting together a Shroud or Hound run. Auras are not enough to push AC or saves over any noticable plateau, a Barb, Ranger, or even a few Rogue builds provide better DPS and AC is useless. Putting those SP to use is a good idea. A nice mix of self only, mass buffs and auto abilites are the answer. I think you covered the spells very well.

The classic paladin is a combination of all the great heros of legend:

Before battle the Paladin says a prayer and ask his god to bless his arm and weapon. How about the ability to add short duration Lawful of Pure Good effects to your weapon of choice? If that seems over the top just make it of pure good. Don't make me bug a cleric or buy a stack of junk blank weapons. My Holy Avenger is a family heirloom, the reward at the end of a long quest of personal discovery, or a Masterwork made just for me, not a rusty piece of overpriced junk from House J.

A high level Paladin is a Champion of all that is right and good. Forget Intimidate, evil should be drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Make it a stance-like ability that can be toggled with the cooldown cycle decreasing as you level up or an auto intimidate as the evil critter enters your Aura radius. This radius should increase with level for the purposes of this ability or be based on your Charisma. Who said being the hero was easy... or safe.;)

A Paladin feels corruption and evil down to the bone, I propose an ability much like Spot that applies to evil creatures.

I'm just throwing ideas against the wall. I feel that if we can change the arguement from one of balance with other melees into a discussion of what crosses your mind when you think of the fictional and quasi-historical characters that spawned the idea of a Paladin, some minds will be changed to our side.

Great ideas Mapa! These have a really good feel for how a Paladin should be:) As for how these would be implemented and balanced into DDO, leave that to the developers.

I was playing my Paladin intimitank last night, and with the new 6 sec cooldown I felt like I was just a big bully calling the bad guys names all quest long. It was very affective, but felt very un-Paladin like and is probably why intimidate is a fighter class skill. However, this is the best mechanic available in DDO at the moment to grab their aggro. I much prefer your idea of being an auto-magnet for evil creatures. I can't tell you how many times I've stood with my party members as the mobs come charging forward and completely ignore me to go after someone else in the party. Just make Paladins one of the top, if not the top, guy for any evil mobs to go after when the mobs are determining who to attack (unless someone else has peeved the mob off by dropping a firewall on them)

Borror0
06-13-2008, 09:43 AM
I can't tell you how many times I've stood with my party members as the mobs come charging forward and completely ignore me to go after someone else in the party.

He goes for the greater thret, no wonder he's ignoring the paladin.:D

Ok, jokes aside... why didn't you use Intimidate?

llevenbaxx
06-13-2008, 09:43 AM
A high level Paladin is a Champion of all that is right and good. Forget Intimidate, evil should be drawn to him like a moth to a flame. Make it a stance-like ability that can be toggled with the cooldown cycle decreasing as you level up or an auto intimidate as the evil critter enters your Aura radius. This radius should increase with level for the purposes of this ability or be based on your Charisma. Who said being the hero was easy... or safe.;)



This would be pretty cool. Doesnt sound too different from how they make Rusties B-line for WF. While I think that was a pretty dumb idea(wood/stone?!?), the mechanic sounds like it could be used to draw mobs with the evil descriptor to a pally. Neat idea, if everything converges on you, so will all the PCs making sure they will be in range for your auras. Cool idea though.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 09:56 AM
If you opened all 3 levels to everyone you would detract from the value of having a fighter in a group. Or make the the current cost apply to melee classes and lower the cost for fighters.

Really, why?

The fighter has +2 from Tower Shield and +2 from Demoralize Opponent.
The paladin has +2 from Aura of Good and +2 from Silverbeard.

If you splash two levels:

The fighter gets the +2 from Aura of Good.
The paladin gets +2 from Tower Shield and +2 from Demoralize Opponent.

Basicly, the paladins is only at +2 AC over the fighter, unless the fighter goes for paladin 4 and thus get Silverbeard.

PS: Silverbeard lasts 1 minute/level.


If you're going to reduce the cost of Dwarven Armor Mastery I would make 3 lines of Armor Mastery, each line would apply to Light; Medium; and Heavy Armors respectively.

It's not a nerf to dwarf, but a balancing of AC distribution. There is not a single class or race that is nerfed. Maybe a certain build, but that's collateral damage. Like HSinclair once said, we cannot consider every build ever made, that's not possible. For every change we make, there will always be a theorical build that will be nerfed by it.

That's life, the point is to try to upset the least players as possible.

It's a compensation for not stacking.

Alcides
06-13-2008, 02:43 PM
Really, why?

The fighter has +2 from Tower Shield and +2 from Demoralize Opponent.
The paladin has +2 from Aura of Good and +2 from Silverbeard.

If you splash two levels:

The fighter gets the +2 from Aura of Good.
The paladin gets +2 from Tower Shield and +2 from Demoralize Opponent.

Basicly, the paladins is only at +2 AC over the fighter, unless the fighter goes for paladin 4 and thus get Silverbeard.

PS: Silverbeard lasts 1 minute/level.



It's not a nerf to dwarf, but a balancing of AC distribution. There is not a single class or race that is nerfed. Maybe a certain build, but that's collateral damage. Like HSinclair once said, we cannot consider every build ever made, that's not possible. For every change we make, there will always be a theorical build that will be nerfed by it.

That's life, the point is to try to upset the least players as possible.

It's a compensation for not stacking.

I was just suggesting to lower the cost of Tower Shield Mastery and Armor Mastery for Fighters to (1, 2, 3) instead of (2, 4, 6) respectively. If you're going to give a similar ability to other classes, who didn't have it before they should pay double since you are giving an ability that used to be fighter only to other classes. Think of it as a cross class enhancement system. You really could generalize this quite a bit as follows.

1. A character has access to the enhancement lines of all classes that character has ever taken.
2. The character's level must at least be equal to the class level requirement of an enhancement in order to take a particular enhancement.
3. If the character has at least as many class levels as the class level requirement in the enhancement they wish to purchase then the enhancement has the normal action point cost.
4. If the character does not have the appropriate number of class levels then double the action point cost of the enhancement.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 02:47 PM
If you're going to give a similar ability to other classes, who didn't have it before they should pay double since you are giving an ability that used to be fighter only to other classes.

Yes, but Rangers lost Favored Defense and Paladins lost Bulwark of Good.

Alcides
06-13-2008, 02:56 PM
Yes, but Rangers lost Favored Defense and Paladins lost Bulwark of Good.

Rangers have Favored Defense I, II, III.
Paladins now have Bulwark of Good I, II, III, IV; and, personally I think this is good because it means you can't cheese 3 AC with out a 7 level dip in paladin.

Borror0
06-13-2008, 02:59 PM
I say:

Remove the current Bulwark of Good enhancements.
Increase the base of Aura of Good to 2.
Tie the Tower Shield Mastery to the feat rather than the fighter class.
Remove Favored Defense enhancements.
Open the Armor Mastery to every class, but make it so that it follows the class' armor profiency.
Reduce the AP cost of Dwarven Armor Master from 2, 4, 6 to 1, 2, 3 but make sure it doesn't stack with any class' Amor Mastery.
Add Demoralize Opponent to Intimidate.
Add Silverbeard.

?

Ahem

Ralmeth
06-13-2008, 03:02 PM
He goes for the greater thret, no wonder he's ignoring the paladin.:D

Ok, jokes aside... why didn't you use Intimidate?

LOL! You are so right ;) Look! It's just a Paladin in front...ignore him. His DPS is *@#$. Let's go for the Barb! I jest, but that's exactly what happened.

As for your question, I did of course use intimidate. I think the only way to get the mobs to pay attention to a Paladin is to call the mobs names (i.e. intimidate);)

Borror0
06-13-2008, 03:10 PM
I think the only way to get the mobs to pay attention to a Paladin is to call the mobs names (i.e. intimidate);)

Diplomacy should do the trick, "Over my dead body" sort of thing.

Turial
06-13-2008, 03:11 PM
LOL! You are so right ;) Look! It's just a Paladin in front...ignore him. His DPS is *@#$. Let's go for the Barb! I jest, but that's exactly what happened.

As for your question, I did of course use intimidate. I think the only way to get the mobs to pay attention to a Paladin is to call the mobs names (i.e. intimidate);)
There is also the level 6? enhancement that increases the threat of a paladins attacks by 50%...which now, if I read things correctly, lasts for a full minute.

Ralmeth
06-13-2008, 06:16 PM
There is also the level 6? enhancement that increases the threat of a paladins attacks by 50&#37;...which now, if I read things correctly, lasts for a full minute.

Yes, there is that. I haven't tested this out yet, now that the duration is 60 seconds. However I think you have to hit first in order for that to work. When there are multiple bad guys and you aren't a top DPS guy (as you are a Paladin), then I don't know how affective this will be. I can't imagine it will be anywhere nearly as good as intimidate, where you just have to be in range for it to work. It's great when the bad guy is chasing your mage down and you can get the monster to turn around to face you instead. I do plan on trying this enhancement out when I'm around mobs that cannot be intimidated.

Edit: Okay, I tested this enhancement out in a Gianthold quest with my Pally 10 / Fighter 1 Intimitank. I was in a quest with a mix of spiders and trolls. Hit the button to activate the enhancement and started swinging away. Didn't really notice too many of the bad guys come after me, maybe the couple around me. Then I hit the intimidate button and that got all of the trolls attention. I'll test this out more, but I'm not too impressed with that enhancement yet.

Ralmeth
06-13-2008, 06:21 PM
Diplomacy should do the trick, "Over my dead body" sort of thing.

Yes, I agree. I always thought intimidate (or diplomacy) should be more of a, spit in the monsters face with a "Fight me!" type of thing.

Treerat
06-13-2008, 09:42 PM
Divine Ageis
Paladin 2, Cleric 3
Protects one target other than the caster with a holy shield that absorbs (caster lv x20 max 200) damage. Lasts 10 seconds per caster level. While the shield holds, casters so protected need not make a concentration checks if attacked.

Holy Wrath
Paladin 3, Cleric 4
Imbues the paladins attacks with divine fury, causing his or her attacks to deal an additional 1d6 good damage per 2 caster levels (max of 5d6) and critical attacks to deal an additional 2d6 good damage per 2 levels (max 8d6). Against undead and evil outsiders, this spell causes the attacks to do 1d6 additional good damage per caster level (max 10d6) and critical hits to deal an additional 2d6 per caster level (max 16d6). Lasts 60 seconds.

Sanctification
Paladin 4
Imbues one target with holy order, increasing the effect of positive-energy spells & effects. Cast on allies, this spell increases the effect of healing spells by 25&#37; for 20 seconds per caster level. Cast on undead or evil outsiders, the spell increases damage done through cure spells, lay on hands, and holy and/or good effects by 50% for 10 seconds per caster level.

Unrelenting Justice
Paladin 3
Imbues the caster with the purpose of justice, granting the them a +25% bonus to run speed, a +10 to jump and balance, and immunity to paralysis, web, charm, and petrification, and slow effects as well as immunity to knock-down effects. The spell lasts 10 seconds per caster level, and on expiration exhausts the caster for an equal amount of time.

Blessed Defender
Paladin 3
The caster is imbued with divine resolution, giving a +2 plus 1 per 5 caster levels sacred bonus to armor class. The spell lasts 1 minute per caster level.

Fury of the Heavens
Paladin 4
The caster calls on the power of her patrons to strike her enemies with divine fury. The targeted enemy is struck for 1d6 good damage per caster level (max of 10d6, will save at for half) if of evil alignment, after which the attack jumps to the next closest target dealing 50% of that damage, before jumping again. If the attack can not chain to a second target it does double damage to the original target. Neutral targets suffer 25% additional damage (save for half) but the attack does not chain. Good targets are unaffected. Undead and evil outsiders take full damage on a successful saving throw, and on a failed save are also struck with a divine blight reducing all attacks rolls, damage, saving throws, and spell DCs by 4 until removed.

Enhancements

Improved Divine Favor (I,II,III) 2/4/6 AP
Adds an additional +1 per rank to the attack and damage bonus of Divine Favor.

Aura of Judgement (I,II,III) 2,4,6 AP
The paladins aura imposes a -1 penalty per rank to the attack rolls of all enemies in range.

Divine Vigor (I,II,III,IV) 1,2,3,4 AP
Confers a 25%, 50%, and 75% immunity to fatigue & exhaustion at ranks 1-3, and total immunity to fatigue and exhaustion at rank 4.

Improved Holy Sword (I, II) 2,4 AP
Improves the critical multiplier of the summoned weapon by x1 at rank 1, and improves the critical strike range by 1 at rank 2.

Paladins Challenge (I,II,III,IV) 1,2,3,4 AP
Enables the paladin to draw the attention of the targeted monster through the use of the diplomacy skill. Additional ranks add a -10% per rank to the threat of attacks from sources outside the paladin and a +10% bonus to threat from the paladins attacks for 30 seconds.

Basic game changes
Remove the cool down on smites. Currently fights just aren't long enough to warrant having multiple smites - by the time we can dump 8 of them (48 seconds assuming perfect timing, no lag, and no interruption of the attack sequence) anything short of a major raid boss is dead (and even some of those are damn close to dead). Before the timer, smite evil was a nice "omg take him down NOW or we're all gonna die" ability even in single groups because paladins could deliver all of them back to back for heavy spike dps at the expense of not having anything for right afterwards if the burst missed.

Depravity
06-14-2008, 12:03 AM
Okay, I'll admit my earlier suggestions were overpowered. The important part was getting them out of my head, where they've been rattling around demanding release. :)

Tying things to races is not necessarily a bad thing. A real world equivalent (yes, I know I lose because I'm dragging the real world into this) would be to ask how many french Thugees you know. Not many, I bet. However, if there were to be really nice enhancements tied to faith lines, it would be easy enough to allow access to the race-specific lines at an increased AP cost. Say 3 or 4 ap for a usually race-restricted, then normal cost for higher levels to represent the extra work of getting initiated into a generally closed society.

I personally like (having a few) race restrictions, simply because they make character building more complex, and I see said complexity as a real strength of the DnD/DDO rulesets. Most MMOs or RPGs tend to hand you the equivalent of a halfway finished DnD character and let you tweak it a little from there. here we can do almost anything, but there's always a tradeoff somewhere. Sometimes the only way to learn that ancient elven secret is, well, to be an elf.

Some nice spells at higher pally levels would be wonderful, yes, but they need some sort of other mechanic to stand out. Making them better spellcasters still leaves them taking a backseat to clerics. Treerat's suggestions are in line with what I'd have come up with if I hadn't gotten so distracted by pretty shiny powers, and actually thought about it. Making their unique abilities shine at higher level will draw more people to play those higher levels.

Giving out the armor mastery enhancements is problematic, imho.
Like the rage enhancements, these mimic feats. in this case feats that most non-fighter characters don't see as worth taking in PnP.
Fighters don't see a difference beyond loss of one of their few unique traits, rogues are going to tend to still hit dex cap, and may even stay with dresses/outfits, clerics probably won't muster the dex.
Paladins, with the wide stat requirements, may not muster the dex, especially not at the cost of 'more important' stats (cha and str).
Barbarians will bow down and worship you once the possibilities settle through their skulls - you just handed them almost fighter AC, on top of built in DR. Given the current barb fixation on TWF. complete with high dex scores and mithral full plate, the armor mastery line will be a no-brainer. They would have the potential to become a better defensive class than a pure fighter specced for armor and shield. Imagine a fighter with 600 HP, high AC, and permanent stoneskin. They may even be able to figure out that taking almost no damage can mitigate the loss in DPS a shield represents.



Some suggestions I've seen about, possibly from Borror0 himself:


Smites as a short-term effect, like an action boost.

Likes:
Makes up for the massive number of swings taken between rest vs low number of smites. PnP simply doesn't have as many attacks to deal with between recharges.
The extra smites gained from leveling become more important, so more levels in pally become a little more attractive.

Dislikes:
It's like an uber rage, and we shouldn't be trying to turn pallys into too much of a DPS class for fear of imbalance. Keep it a definite spike in damage output, not a reliable/constant form of self buffage.
Doesn't really provide too much of a boost past the current level 11 plateau.

Possible Execution:
Short, short, short effect - 4 or 6 seconds. Enough for a full attack string or so. Add a second or two with each extra smite enhancement. When you click to activate, it swings as part of the click - imagine stunning blow setting off a timer when you fire it.
Exalted smites should either reset to the base timer (no boost from extra smites), set to a really short timer(literally one attack string), or touch off with no cooldown - you can smite for a little bit, or you can blow smites for the extra crit potential.
Remove or lengthen the current regen, as smites just became much much better.


CE fixed by 'hibernating' when casting, instead of shutting off

Likes:
Makes the CE feat more attractive to pallys, who are plagued by short duration buff spells.

Dislikes:
Makes the CE feat more attractive to wizards, who can afford an 'experimental' feat

Possible Execution:
Shuts down CE for length of cast + 2-4 seconds. Effectively shuts it down for longer than current (cast, plus reaction time, plus 1 second to bring CE back up), but makes things much more convenient and mobile. If we make this a paladin AP option, it removes the temptation for casters to take it. A possible AP line for reduction of downtime, although I wouldn't see too many people taking the full line. Alternately further ranks take it from a full shutdown (-5 AC) to a partial shutdown - say buy ability, -4AC, -3 AC, -2AC.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 03:32 PM
Tying things to races is not necessarily a bad thing. [...] However, if there were to be really nice enhancements tied to faith lines, it would be easy enough to allow access to the race-specific lines at an increased AP cost. Say 3 or 4 ap for a usually race-restricted, then normal cost for higher levels to represent the extra work of getting initiated into a generally closed society.

I personally like (having a few) race restrictions, simply because they make character building more complex, and I see said complexity as a real strength of the DnD/DDO rulesets.

I'm not against some race-based faith lines. I think they would make a nice flavor addition to the game.

However, it's flavor. I don't mean weak, but I want it to be a bonus to play that race rather than a incitative to play that race. I want the player to ask himself if he picks them, or not. I don't want the "paladin love" to be going through these enhancements, or any race-related enhancements.

As to why I don't want, the reason is simple. Instead of adding complexity and customisation like you want, if they are too poweful, they will actually encourage the opposite. If these are too powerful, you'll play race A for build A, race B for build B and race C for build C, rather than looking at race A , C and E and asking yourself which would suit you best.


Some nice spells at higher pally levels would be wonderful, yes, but they need some sort of other mechanic to stand out. Making them better spellcasters still leaves them taking a backseat to clerics.

Oh, and I agree, hence the reason why I talked about Divine enhancements at the bottom. I thought of putting Divine Might at level 14ish, reason being that it's not needed before. I'm still trying to think of a right equation to make it nice, though. I can't clearly go by the equation of +X to damage rolls where X is your Charisma modifier, because, while paladins are bring in DPS, they are not that behind.

I mean, I want avoid all the love coming from one spell or enhancement, I want to allow diversification, rather than forcing paladins in one way to be.


Giving out the armor mastery enhancements is problematic, imho.

You've explained why, but I don't get your explanation...


They would have the potential to become a better defensive class than a pure fighter specced for armor and shield. Imagine a fighter with 600 HP, high AC, and permanent stoneskin. They may even be able to figure out that taking almost no damage can mitigate the loss in DPS a shield represents.

They'll be missing out on Combat Expterise, that's 5 points there. Probably on Dodge too. They'll still be taking the -2 penalty from Rage, you're at -7 there. Then, you've got to consider the lack of any shield... that's like somewhere between -6 to -10. Trust me, barbarians will not be able to get worthy AC, unless they don't feel like raging...




Smites as a short-term effect, like an action boost.

Yeah, that was my suggestion actually.

However, I've changed my mind on it. I kinda like the idea behind Exalted Smite... but it's the Smite Evil mechanic itself that is lacking. Honestly, I see now what Eladrin means when he said he was sacred that a 6s Smite Evil would be overpowered. By level 16, Smite Evil is +55 to damage. By level, 20, that would be +67... for 6s!:eek: Now, take a 19 paladin/1 fighter and give him Fighter Haste Boost I for a +15% speed increase for 6 seconds, at +64 to damage.

It's a little too nasty.

What I tought of was a regen rate of 60 (we'll lower it even more if it's too slow), the total reduction of cooldown. Then, you change the way Smite Evil so it doesn't trigger on activating it. Rather, your next swing will be a Smite Evil. Until then, you will have a Smite Evil icon at the top of your screen with all the buffs. Activating Smite Evil will not slow you down anymore, because the biggest problem with Smite Evil is how it is to land.

Increase the regen, remove the cooldown and make it easy to trigger... and Smite Evil will be "fixed".


CE fixed by 'hibernating' when casting, instead of shutting off

Possible Execution:
Shuts down CE for length of cast + 2-4 seconds. Effectively shuts it down for longer than current (cast, plus reaction time, plus 1 second to bring CE back up), but makes things much more convenient and mobile.

Yes, I actually suggested something like that here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=148202). Somewhere between 2-6s seems fine to me.

As for the paladin option, I say no. If you get the 13 Int for it, plus get all the gear for have a significant AC, you deserve it. For a sorcerer or a wizard, it's an exploit to get that much. As for clerics, they are supposed to have higher AC, that's why they got heavy armor. Really, it's not that overpowering. Actually, AC is not that overpowering.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 03:59 PM
Divine Ageis
Paladin 2, Cleric 3
Protects one target other than the caster with a holy shield that absorbs (caster lv x20 max 200) damage. Lasts 10 seconds per caster level. While the shield holds, casters so protected need not make a concentration checks if attacked.

Errr... Preventing 200 damage for 20 SPs...?!


Blessed Defender
Paladin 3
The caster is imbued with divine resolution, giving a +2 plus 1 per 5 caster levels sacred bonus to armor class. The spell lasts 1 minute per caster level.

Bonus to AC = Bad ;)


Improved Divine Favor (I,II,III) 2/4/6 AP
Adds an additional +1 per rank to the attack and damage bonus of Divine Favor.

I'm not too keen of the idea of improving spells via enhancements, but that's personnal preferences. No good arguments.:p


Aura of Judgement (I,II,III) 2,4,6 AP
The paladins aura imposes a -1 penalty per rank to the attack rolls of all enemies in range.

That equals to a bonus to AC, so I oppose.


Divine Vigor (I,II,III,IV) 1,2,3,4 AP
Confers a 25%, 50%, and 75% immunity to fatigue & exhaustion at ranks 1-3, and total immunity to fatigue and exhaustion at rank 4.

Why not.


Improved Holy Sword (I, II) 2,4 AP
Improves the critical multiplier of the summoned weapon by x1 at rank 1, and improves the critical strike range by 1 at rank 2.

Playing with critical ranges and multiplier is dangerous, you know it as much as I.

Also, that will limit paladin at Holy Sword, and then problems arise:

Will it cut it? I mean you got to compete versus WoP, Vorpal and named/crafted weapons.
You've to realise it means the lost of Insight bonuses, is it worth it?
It's not equal to everyone. Better for lonswords and khopeshes than axes, and evem better for rapiers and scimitars.


Basic game changes
Remove the cool down on smites. Currently fights just aren't long enough to warrant having multiple smites - by the time we can dump 8 of them (48 seconds assuming perfect timing, no lag, and no interruption of the attack sequence) anything short of a major raid boss is dead (and even some of those are damn close to dead). Before the timer, smite evil was a nice "omg take him down NOW or we're all gonna die" ability even in single groups because paladins could deliver all of them back to back for heavy spike dps at the expense of not having anything for right afterwards if the burst missed.

Agreed.

arikka_hador
06-14-2008, 05:20 PM
Please leave frustration, anger and pointy sticks at the door. Thank you.

If you are going to come here to argue that paladins are fine and don't need anything, then don't post. If you have any intention of contributing to this thread, please do it in the mindset that paladins need some attention from the developers. We may disagree on "how much" attention we think they need, but that secondary. Point is, paladins are in need of some attention. If you disagree, please post in... *Original Post shortened for space*

Borror0, I really like your ideas you listed here. If even just a couple of these ideas were implemented, I think there would be a LOT more incentive to play a pally, plus they'd be more fun!

I especially like the idea of giving Paladin DV, DH etc. types of enhancements for unused turns. My current pally is a charisma type build, so he has a lot of turns that sadly just don't get used. It would just make me feel more of a team player if I could help the party out by popping Divine Heals, rather than just seeing those turns sit there uselessly in non-undead type quests.

Borror0
06-14-2008, 05:38 PM
arikka, that's actually the point. There is a lot of Cha build coming from Pen & Paper, so trying to give those a little boost too. :)

That reminds me, no one talked about my definition of possible roles... any disagreement? Suggestion? Everything is Perfect? hehe

Quoted for easier acess:


A paladin's role:

A while ago, Eladrin defined paladins as such:



Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

I will partly disagree with this.

I will agree that paladins will be a much more defensive class than a barbarian or a ranger, or even a fighter. However, I don't want them to be centered on AC. Anyone who, like me, have an high level AC character knows how hard it is to get enough AC for the content that is released every Module, the two worst grinds being the +4 Insight from the Shroud and the +3 Dodge from the Chattering Ring. For how hard it is, AC should always be regarded as a build option, rather than class ability.

Armor Class is to paladins what a 3/4 BAB is to a cleric. They can build around it, or simply ignore it totally and focus on another achetype.

This is why, to me, paladins should be seen as a class with higher defensive capacities and support capability. By that I mean that a paladin spec'd for DPS will always take less damage than a barbarian put in the same situation, regardless of his AC. Also, that means not turning paladins into a support class who stands behing and swings his weapon from time to time to look busy. However, it's obvious to me that paladin will be a class centered around buffs, as that is what makes them so different from fighters.

So, basicly, we'd see three types of paladins:

Avenger - Using a two-handed weapon, burning with the desire to punish the wicked and smite the unbelievers.


Defender - Keeping his allies safe, behind his shield.


Sidekick - While he may lack the firepower of the Avenger or the defensive capacities of the Defender, he helps his allies through his spells and other class abilities. He may choose to either go for a defensive path, hiding behind a shield, or to be more geared towards offense wielding a two-handed weapon, but in either cases, his help will be nothing to overlook.

artvan_delet
06-14-2008, 06:19 PM
I have read so many threads about paladins and improvements. Been about 6 mos worth. The only thing I recall the devs listened to was reducing the cost of BOG. I'd be curious to know what else they have listened to. Thanks.

Mhykke
06-14-2008, 06:43 PM
I have read so many threads about paladins and improvements. Been about 6 mos worth. The only thing I recall the devs listened to was reducing the cost of BOG. I'd be curious to know what else they have listened to. Thanks.


Off the top of my head, changing holy sword to bypass silver and byeshk DR as well as cold iron.

QuantumFX
06-14-2008, 08:16 PM
The thing I don't get is why people don't turn to the D&D sourcebooks when coming up with this stuff. Here's a nice little ability that replaces the paladin's mount.



Charging Smite
Level: 5th
Replaces: Special Mount
Benefit: Beginning at 5th level, if you smite evil on a charge attack, you deal an additional 2 points of damage per paladin level to any creature you hit (in addition to the normal bonus damage dealt by a smite). If the charge attack misses, the smite ability is not considered used. This is a supernatural ability.
Changes to make it DDO friendly: Make it an Abundant leap type charge. (Nowhere near the range and must have a targetted opponent.)


Or they could make actual paladin racial enhancements based off of actual ideas from P&P.

Take Warforged for example:


Smite Construct (Su):
A warforged paladin can use his smite evil ability against a construct, gaining a bonus on his attack rolls and damage rolls as if smiting an evil creature, regardless of the construct’s alignment.

There's a great 1 AP enhancement right there...



Durable Will (Su):
At 2nd level, a warforged paladin gains a bonus equal to his Constitution bonus (if any) on Will saves. This substitution feature replaces the standard paladin’s divine grace ability.

2AP enhancement. Now because an enhancements don't take away class abilities in DDO we can adapt it to make it CON modifier replaces the WIS modifier on will saves.



Immunity to Stunning (Ex):
From 3rd level on, a warforged paladin cannot be stunned. This substitution feature replaces the standard paladin’s divine health ability.

Another 1 or 2 AP ability. Divine health on a warforged is useless anyway.

Elves would also get some long overdue attention as well:



Ranged Smite Evil (Su):
An elf paladin can only deliver his smite evil attacks with a longbow (or composite longbow) or shortbow (or composite shortbow). The target must be within 30 feet for the paladin to use this ability. This ability otherwise functions identically to the normal smite evil class feature described on page 44 of the Player’s Handbook. This substitution feature replaces the standard paladin’s class feature of smite evil. At each level at which the paladin would normally gain an additional daily use of smite evil, the elf paladin instead gains a daily use of ranged smite evil.

1 Ap cause it's not an awe inspiring ability and doesn't give STR bonuses because of the hokey Bow Strength feat. But it's not like any exotic coding would be necessary. Smite calculations are in place, it has the same range issues as point blank shot/sneak attack.



Aura of Freedom (Su):
A 3rd-level elf paladin radiates an aura that helps his allies resist effects that would influence their minds. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against enchantment effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead. This substitution feature replaces the standard paladin’s ability of aura of courage.

To DDO the ability just make it turn the bonuses to fear into bonuses vs. enchantment. 2 AP cost as it's just a conversion not an enhancement.


The feats available in DDO are also woefully inadequte;


DIVINE MIGHT [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to increase the damage you deal in combat.
Prerequisites: Str 13, turn or rebuke undead ability, Power Attack.
Benefit: As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.

To DDOize it just make it last until your next successful melee attack.



DIVINE SHIELD [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to make your shield more effective for either offense or defense.
Prerequisites: Turn or rebuke undead ability, proficiency with a shield.
Benefit: As a standard action, spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting it a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This bonus applies to the shield’s bonus to Armor Class and lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your character level.



DIVINE VIGOR [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to increase your speed and durability.
Prerequisites: Turn or rebuke undead ability.
Benefit: As a standard action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to increase your base speed by 10 feet
and gain +2 temporary hit points per character level. These effects last a number of minutes equal to your Charisma modifier.



SACRED VENGEANCE [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to deal extra damage against undead in melee.
Prerequisites: Turn or rebuke undead ability.
Benefit: As a free action, spend one of your turn undead attempts to add 2d6 points of damage to all your successful melee attacks against undead until the end of the current round.

Dworkin_of_Amber
06-16-2008, 12:34 PM
Borror0, I agree whole-heartedly that Paladins still need some "oompfh" in DDO. I still dearly love playing my Holy Avenger (Human 11P/2R/3F w/ Kopesh), but he still lags behind the other melee classes in many ways. Now Eladrin says that Paladins are supposed to be a Defensive Melee Class... well, then why aren't Paladins the highest AC, and I mean CLEARLY the highest AC, not by 1-2 points... but to the point where AC actually matters? Yes, our Saves are wonderful, to the point that I basically only fail on a 1... but that is not sufficient. There is still *NO* reason to stay pure Paladin, even with the new enhancements.

I think there are a couple of issues here:

1) Paladin "Specialty Enhancements" (Faith lines) are just plain awful, with the exception for Warforged. They add bonuses to the wrong weapon types for each race (Elf should get Longsword and/or rapier... who is going to roll a Elven Paladin using a Longbow?).

Suggestion 1: Change the Paladin Specialty Enhancements to 1 Weapon Type, selectable upon taking the Enhancement. Weapon selection is based on racially-favored weapons (Elves choose Longsword, Rapier, Longbow; Warforged choose from two-handed weapons; Dwarves choose an axe or hammer or DA; and Humans choose one of ANY weapon).

Suggestion 2: Make the 2nd tier of the Faith also grant an additional hit and/or damage bonus using the favored weapon.

Suggestion 3: Make the Faith Line include some other passive bonuses, like making any weapon True Law, or Pure Good, or Ghost Touch, or some other similar modifier. Grant this to all equipped weapons, ranged or melee

2) Paladin Auras: The Aura currently grants AC & Saves to the party members... which, in all reality, is pretty useless at high-levels. +3/+4 AC & Saves for most classes doesn't mean much, nor does the range requirements, given the layout and combat style of DDO

Suggestion 1: Make the Paladin's Aura an offensive weapon at higher levels. I don't know what, if any PnP equivalents there are, but the Aura dealing direct damage to enemies in range (with a GREATLY increased Hate Modifier)

Suggestion 2: Same vein, add the Aura to grant special properties to all spells/melee/ranged attacks that originate within the Aura... add True Law/Pure Good/Holy/Silver/etc.

Suggestion 3: Make the Paladin's Aura an Initimidate-AoE around him vs. Evil. The Paladin is supposed to be the Bulwark of Good.. the Holy Warrior... and all the Evil Creatures should hate him for it. Make the Aura a persistant or Every X Seconds, Evil creatures within range are forced to make an Intimidate-like check, else they transfer aggro to the Paladin.

This really starts to touch on the other problem of a "Defensive Melee" class, that can't hold aggro! Paladins have a few abilities to temporarily increase melee hate, but the reality is that if a Paladin is beating on a mob, if a Fighter or Barb or Ranger (if it's a FE) comes over and beats on it too, the Paladin will most likely lose aggro. How can you be a Defensive Melee type if you can't hold the attention of the mobs you are trying to defensively-fight?

I am not saying that Intimidate should be a Paladin class skill (but I think it would help), but Paladins should have persistent ways to gain and hold aggro if they are to maintain their role in battle. Even something as simple as an Enhancement that increases our Melee Hate 20/40/60% and it is always-on.


Yes, there is also a huge area of the ineffecitveness of the Paladin's spell list, but I think there have been plenty of good opinions on this one already, and I am not as familiar with all the spell possibilities... but the Paladin still needs love... needs reason to continue past 3/4/7/11 (especially past Paladin 11), and give the class a clearer defined role.

Right now, the only real way to give a Paladin power and versatility is to Multi-Class. Rogue 2 for Evasion and UMD is far too powerful an option for most to avoid... and then, beyond Paladin 11, the class features and Enhancements just don't warrant returning to Paladin... Fighter is the most common option to beef up the aggro management (via DPS, because that is the only option we have).


I think that is the key. The current Aggro Management system is based purely on DPS. Yes there are a few modifiers down for this (Subtle Casting, Rogue Threat Reduction) that help (and note that the only hate increases are short-duration effects, not always on, or stances)... but Mob Hate is 100% tied to the damage you do to that mob. So DPS = Hate. Short and simple. If you aren't the king of DPS, you can't hold Aggro. This system leaves no room for a Defensive Melee class.

GramercyRiff
06-16-2008, 01:22 PM
Good job QuantumFX, you are the only one so far who offered options for the Paladin that don't suck.

Since AC is pretty much fubar for the average player, why not give the Paladin the Crusader's ability Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike (since implementing Crusader isn't the most realistic option). Boost and tweak Steely Resolve a bit so it's relevant, useful, and powerful in the DDO world. Then AC won't matter as much, yet the Paladin can still take a beating while not taking as much damage as the other classes. Give the Paladin full Intimidate like the Crusader has so the Paladin's defensive nature is actually useful. Basically make the Paladin as much like Crusader as possible without chaning the name Paladin to Crusader.

Also/Or you could scale AC like in 4E where you get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 01:37 PM
Also/Or you could scale AC like in 4E where you get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level.

I was thinking about that for a while, trying to see how well it'd be in DDO.

I think that, if it can work, it'll be the best option. Because it requires doesn't require forcing into specialisation.

GramercyRiff
06-16-2008, 03:47 PM
I was thinking about that for a while, trying to see how well it'd be in DDO.

I think that, if it can work, it'll be the best option. Because it requires doesn't require forcing into specialisation.

Yeah I think it might be the only way to balance to hit with AC. Of course, if it works both ways, we'll have a harder time hitting too. That's why it should only work for us. Mobs, after all, have a ridiculous amount of hps at this point. You'd have to scale back mob hps and how much damage casters deal if you even thought about giving mobs AC bonus equal to 1/2 level.

AC shouldn't have to be contingent on your gear. Nothing should be contingent on your gear. A character's power should come mainly from his class and race based abilities. Gygax's thoery on escalation of gear based power was right. At some point the orcs gotta have uzis to compete. That's one of the many reasons 4E is superior to 3E, character power comes from innate abilties rather than arbitrary external gear.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 03:50 PM
AC shouldn't have to be contingent on your gear..

So true.

Gunga
06-16-2008, 03:57 PM
It's a compensation for not stacking.

There are some pretty heavy regs to posting in this thread, so before I do...

Am I allowed to comment on points that were brought up in this thread that I don't agree with?

LawstCawz
06-16-2008, 04:28 PM
So true.

AC is harshly tied to gear or else EVERYONE would be running around as an untouchable god with an AC only derived from a good build. I question whether that would be a wise decision. Unfortunately, gear MAKES the end game on most, if not all mmo's. Although, this is a discussion for another thread.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 04:31 PM
Am I allowed to comment on points that were brought up in this thread that I don't agree with?

Give it a try, as long as you explain yourself.

Borror0
06-16-2008, 04:34 PM
AC is harshly tied to gear or else EVERYONE would be running around as an untouchable god with an AC only derived from a good build.

Not so much, you're not invincible with the best AC around.

Plus, it's not about rendering gear useless, but forcing into grinding to make your character useful isn't a good idea. Even if you make AC more accessible, there will be other stuff to grind for. I mean, you still look for gear on your barbarian, bard, rogue, ranger, sorcerer, etc. right?

As for high AC, some like it, some don't. Not everyone will be in AC mode.

Inspire
06-16-2008, 05:02 PM
Not so much, you're not invincible with the best AC around.

Tell Me About It...

Borror0
06-16-2008, 05:08 PM
Tell Me About It...

hehe... -_-

Ralmeth
06-16-2008, 07:24 PM
Borror0, I agree whole-heartedly that Paladins still need some "oompfh" in DDO. I still dearly love playing my Holy Avenger (Human 11P/2R/3F w/ Kopesh), but he still lags behind the other melee classes in many ways. Now Eladrin says that Paladins are supposed to be a Defensive Melee Class... well, then why aren't Paladins the highest AC, and I mean CLEARLY the highest AC, not by 1-2 points... but to the point where AC actually matters? Yes, our Saves are wonderful, to the point that I basically only fail on a 1... but that is not sufficient. There is still *NO* reason to stay pure Paladin, even with the new enhancements.

I think there are a couple of issues here:

1) Paladin "Specialty Enhancements" (Faith lines) are just plain awful, with the exception for Warforged. They add bonuses to the wrong weapon types for each race (Elf should get Longsword and/or rapier... who is going to roll a Elven Paladin using a Longbow?).

Suggestion 1: Change the Paladin Specialty Enhancements to 1 Weapon Type, selectable upon taking the Enhancement. Weapon selection is based on racially-favored weapons (Elves choose Longsword, Rapier, Longbow; Warforged choose from two-handed weapons; Dwarves choose an axe or hammer or DA; and Humans choose one of ANY weapon).

Suggestion 2: Make the 2nd tier of the Faith also grant an additional hit and/or damage bonus using the favored weapon.

Suggestion 3: Make the Faith Line include some other passive bonuses, like making any weapon True Law, or Pure Good, or Ghost Touch, or some other similar modifier. Grant this to all equipped weapons, ranged or melee

2) Paladin Auras: The Aura currently grants AC & Saves to the party members... which, in all reality, is pretty useless at high-levels. +3/+4 AC & Saves for most classes doesn't mean much, nor does the range requirements, given the layout and combat style of DDO

Suggestion 1: Make the Paladin's Aura an offensive weapon at higher levels. I don't know what, if any PnP equivalents there are, but the Aura dealing direct damage to enemies in range (with a GREATLY increased Hate Modifier)

Suggestion 2: Same vein, add the Aura to grant special properties to all spells/melee/ranged attacks that originate within the Aura... add True Law/Pure Good/Holy/Silver/etc.

Suggestion 3: Make the Paladin's Aura an Initimidate-AoE around him vs. Evil. The Paladin is supposed to be the Bulwark of Good.. the Holy Warrior... and all the Evil Creatures should hate him for it. Make the Aura a persistant or Every X Seconds, Evil creatures within range are forced to make an Intimidate-like check, else they transfer aggro to the Paladin.

This really starts to touch on the other problem of a "Defensive Melee" class, that can't hold aggro! Paladins have a few abilities to temporarily increase melee hate, but the reality is that if a Paladin is beating on a mob, if a Fighter or Barb or Ranger (if it's a FE) comes over and beats on it too, the Paladin will most likely lose aggro. How can you be a Defensive Melee type if you can't hold the attention of the mobs you are trying to defensively-fight?

I am not saying that Intimidate should be a Paladin class skill (but I think it would help), but Paladins should have persistent ways to gain and hold aggro if they are to maintain their role in battle. Even something as simple as an Enhancement that increases our Melee Hate 20/40/60% and it is always-on.


Yes, there is also a huge area of the ineffecitveness of the Paladin's spell list, but I think there have been plenty of good opinions on this one already, and I am not as familiar with all the spell possibilities... but the Paladin still needs love... needs reason to continue past 3/4/7/11 (especially past Paladin 11), and give the class a clearer defined role.

Right now, the only real way to give a Paladin power and versatility is to Multi-Class. Rogue 2 for Evasion and UMD is far too powerful an option for most to avoid... and then, beyond Paladin 11, the class features and Enhancements just don't warrant returning to Paladin... Fighter is the most common option to beef up the aggro management (via DPS, because that is the only option we have).


I think that is the key. The current Aggro Management system is based purely on DPS. Yes there are a few modifiers down for this (Subtle Casting, Rogue Threat Reduction) that help (and note that the only hate increases are short-duration effects, not always on, or stances)... but Mob Hate is 100% tied to the damage you do to that mob. So DPS = Hate. Short and simple. If you aren't the king of DPS, you can't hold Aggro. This system leaves no room for a Defensive Melee class.

Awesome insight Dworkin. These are great suggestions. My own two cents:
1) Paladin "Specialty Enhancements" (Faith lines) are just plain awful, with the exception for Warforged.:
I could not agree more. I always look at these in my enhancement list, wishing they would be cool. I just shake my head and put my points elsewhere. I play a khopesh wielding human Pally, so if I could put bonuses into my chosen weapon (which I had to spend one of my precious feats to do so) would be great. I like all of your suggestions on how to make these better.

2) Paladin Auras: The Aura currently grants AC & Saves to the party members... which, in all reality, is pretty useless at high-levels.
Per your suggestions, that's a very interesting idea to make the aura offensive in nature. That's not a bad idea. At a minimum, from a RP perspective I think your 3rd suggestion to making the aura an evil hate generator makes a lot of sense.

elraido
06-17-2008, 09:57 AM
My human Paladin AC rocked at lvl 10. Not so much now. Right now he is at a 44. A freakin' 44. How is that supposed to be a defensive class? My freinds fighter is higher than that. I have heard of Wizards and Soc almost the same level as me. Rogues are almost always above me. Right now it is broken down like this (I think :D )
+10 base
+14 black dragon armor
+3 protection (kundak warding bracers)
+3 Seal of the Earth
+1 Dex
+4 Bulwark
+9 Madstone Shield.

How am I supposed to get higher because he is a paladin with out building him for AC like any other toon? I get a huge +4 because of Bulwark and that is it. Every other mele class can get the exact same thing I have except for the +4.....and most have Combat Exp. because they can afford to put some points into Int with out gimping their toon. Paladins most of the time don't have that option with all the points they need to have in Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Chr. And if they cast divine favor or any other spell it knocks them out of Combat Exp as well. So, am I missing something on being a great defensive paladin because they are supposed to be from the devs......

LawstCawz
06-17-2008, 10:12 AM
Not so much, you're not invincible with the best AC around.

Plus, it's not about rendering gear useless, but forcing into grinding to make your character useful isn't a good idea. Even if you make AC more accessible, there will be other stuff to grind for. I mean, you still look for gear on your barbarian, bard, rogue, ranger, sorcerer, etc. right?

As for high AC, some like it, some don't. Not everyone will be in AC mode.

You're just highlighting flaws in the d20 system when applied to such a massive scale as DDO. ;) If AC were related to a form of dr, then being outside the d20 window would not be as much of an issue. It would also not be dnd. DPS gear is MUCH easier to acquire, and less game breaking than a 70ac tank with evasion an uber saves. Everyone will forever look for gear, that will always be the end game of an mmo. AC gear should be harder to acquire as it brings about more benefits once it starts becoming useful. Your idea of removing some ac enhancements would be far more effective, especially dwarven. Unfortunately, there are to many toons built around such things, so it shall never come to pass.

LawstCawz
06-17-2008, 10:17 AM
My human Paladin AC rocked at lvl 10. Not so much now. Right now he is at a 44. A freakin' 44. How is that supposed to be a defensive class? My freinds fighter is higher than that. I have heard of Wizards and Soc almost the same level as me. Rogues are almost always above me. Right now it is broken down like this (I think :D )
+10 base
+14 black dragon armor
+3 protection (kundak warding bracers)
+3 Seal of the Earth
+1 Dex
+4 Bulwark
+9 Madstone Shield.

How am I supposed to get higher because he is a paladin with out building him for AC like any other toon? I get a huge +4 because of Bulwark and that is it. Every other mele class can get the exact same thing I have except for the +4.....and most have Combat Exp. because they can afford to put some points into Int with out gimping their toon. Paladins most of the time don't have that option with all the points they need to have in Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Chr. And if they cast divine favor or any other spell it knocks them out of Combat Exp as well. So, am I missing something on being a great defensive paladin because they are supposed to be from the devs......

+10 base
+14 black dragonscale
+3 dex daggertooth
+5 prot item
+5 bulwark
+9 madstone shield
+3 seal
+2 chaosgarde

Rearrange your gear and enhancements. AC Boost would probably be invaluable for 2:20 at +5 with extra ab II. Defensive fighting also helps sometimes while you instakill or stat damage if you can't take ce. I took power critical for turtle mode and don't miss the df during those situations.

Borror0
06-17-2008, 10:26 AM
You're just highlighting flaws in the d20 system when applied to such a massive scale as DDO. ;)

That was the point. ;)


AC gear should be harder to acquire as it brings about more benefits once it starts becoming useful.

Not really. Lawst, just think of Running with the Devil and you'll know what I mean.


Unfortunately, there are to many toons built around such things, so it shall never come to pass.

If you nerf everyone equally, no one is nerfed. (That includes the mobs)

elraido
06-17-2008, 11:14 AM
+10 base
+14 black dragonscale
+3 dex daggertooth
+5 prot item
+5 bulwark
+9 madstone shield
+3 seal
+2 chaosgarde

Rearrange your gear and enhancements. AC Boost would probably be invaluable for 2:20 at +5 with extra ab II. Defensive fighting also helps sometimes while you instakill or stat damage if you can't take ce. I took power critical for turtle mode and don't miss the df during those situations.

See, that is the problem. If the devs wanted the Paladin to be a AC/Defensive class, then they should give Paladins the option to be a defensive build beyond only a +5 from bulwark. Anyone can get that gear, and along with combat expertise have the same AC. So, they figure a Paladin should have less DPS because of their defensive capabilities, when in fact they are the same as most other melees in that reguard. Lose lose for the Paladin.

Side not for me to have that gear, I would need to start swapping things around.
Choasgarde = Kundarak warding bracers (+3 con, +3 pro, +3 resist)

+5 protection = Necklace (Lorrik's Necklace - Lorikk's Champion, Wisdom +6, Wizardry VI, Efficient Metamagic - Empower Healing II) or Trinket (Bloodstone, Duskheart)

DaggerTooth Belt = +6 Str belt. Granted I could get some +6 str gloves, move my Dex from those gloves to my boots which are the Golden Grieves. So that one is a possibility where the other two slots aren't

Borror0
06-17-2008, 11:22 AM
See, that is the problem. If the devs wanted the Paladin to be a AC/Defensive class, then they should give Paladins the option to be a defensive build beyond only a +5 from bulwark.

Wrong if developers wanted paladins to be a defensive class they would give them something to mitigate damage besides AC.

elraido
06-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Wrong if developers wanted paladins to be a defensive class they would give them something to mitigate damage besides AC.

Angel skin? :D

Borror0
06-17-2008, 11:35 AM
Angel skin? :D

Can I laugh?

elraido
06-17-2008, 11:44 AM
Can I laugh?

yup....a lot.

Turial
06-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Defensive abilities:
Armor Class
Hit Points
Damage Reduction
Saves (Mainly a magic defense...traps generally arent killing players left and right)
Spell resistance
Immunities
Regeneration
Evasion
Healing

I think that covers most of the defensive abilities in the game. Feel free to add more.

AC - Paladins can get a decent AC like many other classes but it is tied more to gear then it is to class abilities.
HP - Paladins may be able to match fighters but they will lag behind barbarians due to rage and a higher hit-dice.
DR - In straight DR the barbarian will beat out angel skin...plus barb DR is DR/- rather then /evil.
Saves - Paladins have good saves thanks to front end class abilities. This makes the a decent combatant against casters...casters with low fort saves that tend to get nuked (thats besides the point).
Spell Resistance - None really to speak of...
Immunities - Immune to fear and disease .....this saves some item slots but all players can cover this.
Regeneration - None really to speak of...
Evasion - None
Healing - LOH and cure spells make a healing speced paladin a potent source of healing for a short period of time.

I'm not seeing how paladins are better suited as a defensive class then others without the addition of gear that is available to everyone or shunting them into a specific race.

bandyman1
06-17-2008, 01:16 PM
I know that Borror0 often cites " metagame " in his posts, and with that; It'll be interesting to see where we go in the future.

In the current end-game, I don't really see the paladin being behind anyone. The current trend of " Vorpal it! " on pretty much all trash mobs has equalized the DPS disadvantage of pallys ( would your cleric rather have the 30 AC barb vorpaling the renders, or the 60-70 AC melee waiting to roll that 20? ), mini beholders fall pretty damn easy to spammed DS and ES from a melee with awesome saves, and spammed ES,DS,ES with a +5 holy burst weapon of choice till exhasted + self-healing and neg status removal provide excellent burst damage + defense vs. boss mobs.

Like I said, It'll be interesting to see where development goes from here. If they move in a completely different direction, it may be that pallys fall behind more and more as time goes on, but if they stick with the current trend in content, I'm not so sure that's the case.

samagee
06-17-2008, 01:16 PM
Pigeon holeing someone into a certain role is for enemies of diversity. :)

Amaras
06-17-2008, 02:47 PM
/signed