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View Full Version : Why no Katana's?



SniptheShadow
06-11-2008, 02:38 PM
With the new Monk class it seems to make more sense than ever.

I know, I know, the Samurai weren't Monks, but the game has other real world weapons from non-western medieval places:

The Khopesh is Egyptian in origin.

The Kukri is from Nepal.

Kama's were a farming tool, for Pete's sake!

C'mon! I want an Acid Burst Crippling Katana of Deception +3, for example.

They don't need to be put in the game for Monks anyway, nah, just put in the game, nudge nudge wink wink. lol

My 2 cents

Snip

P.S. Of course my main is a human Rogue, so I probably wouldn't be allowed to use one for him anyway, but that's not the point. lol

TreknaQudane
06-11-2008, 02:40 PM
Umm... Bastard Sword.

Jakarr
06-11-2008, 02:41 PM
Katanas are a curved version of a longsword, and if ya look a few longswords are with a Katana graphic. And IMO the Nature of a Katana and a Longsword are the same just a Katana is curved a bit more balanced. A Kopesh/Scimatar(sp) are "made" a little diff Scim with a larger blade at the top and a Kopesh just being oddly shaped in I guess makes it a bit more better for the crit scale =)

I could be wrong and probably am but thats my 2 cents

Vizzini
06-11-2008, 02:42 PM
I agree I think we need Katana's they fit very well with the aspect of monks.

/so signed.

SniptheShadow
06-11-2008, 02:47 PM
Umm... Bastard Sword.

A Katana has a single sharp edge and a Bastard Sword is much heavier and can cut from both edges.

Also, I'd guess the Katana should be put in the finesse-able group. It is much closer to a Rapier in relation and looks than a big Bastard Sword.

Snip

P. S. And really, I don't care where they put it or how they categorize it as long as I can find one in a loot chest. lol

sparkling_diamond_l
06-11-2008, 02:48 PM
I wouldn't mind them adding Katanas. I think they are pretty and very cool. They would go along with the Monk "theme" we have going on now, so now would be a great time to add them. ;)

/signed

Plus, the guy on Sarlona that has characters named after people from Kill Bill would be very happy. :p

dragonoffrost
06-11-2008, 02:51 PM
I have found a few katanas only they say long sword.... if i could get in game I could probably put a screenshot of a few from my tempest ranger.

Uproar
06-11-2008, 02:53 PM
A lot asian weapons missing -- a lot!

We need an asian expansion.

Dylos_Moon
06-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Umm... Bastard Sword.

QFT

Katanas are in NWN2, they have the exact same stats as a Bastard Sword.

1d10 Slashing base damage

19-20 critical range

x2 critical multiplier

Exotic weapon

Why would we need 2 weapons that have the exact same stats?

sparkling_diamond_l
06-11-2008, 02:59 PM
A lot asian weapons missing -- a lot!

We need an asian expansion.

I agree 100%

MysticTheurge
06-11-2008, 03:05 PM
In D&D, a katana is just a masterwork (or better) bastard sword.

Vhailor
06-11-2008, 03:05 PM
Oriental Adventures was a Dungeons & Dragons Accessory that went into print around the time of the fiend folio which added some cool monsters. Since DDO is based on a specific AD&D genre I do not think that samurai have made it there yet but I have noticed the spelljammers parked around so maybe they have. Monks, half orcs, gnomes and even gith have used spelljammers to travel around so just about anything could be added to SSO. Samurai were considered a different class than fighter in 2.0 and the katana was similar to a longsword but was Exotic and did 1d10/1d12. I think the SF was faster also (just doing it from memory). Katanas are in NWN2 and 3.5 along with whips and other cool stuff. Maybe they will add it later but I want to see the druids and proper pets and familiars that they promised 'would be ready by release' back in beta when I pre-ordered the game. Hey guys beta is over, where is my familiar? where is my ranger pet and where are the tree huggers.

TreknaQudane
06-11-2008, 03:05 PM
A Katana has a single sharp edge and a Bastard Sword is much heavier and can cut from both edges.

Also, I'd guess the Katana should be put in the finesse-able group. It is much closer to a Rapier in relation and looks than a big Bastard Sword.

Snip

P. S. And really, I don't care where they put it or how they categorize it as long as I can find one in a loot chest. lol


In pen and paper, katanas are nothing more than masterwork quality bastar swords

Hell, the Samuria PrC presented in Complete Warrior uses Bastard Swords as the prerequisite for the class.

Ghoste
06-11-2008, 03:13 PM
A Katana has a single sharp edge and a Bastard Sword is much heavier and can cut from both edges.

Also, I'd guess the Katana should be put in the finesse-able group. It is much closer to a Rapier in relation and looks than a big Bastard Sword.

Snip

P. S. And really, I don't care where they put it or how they categorize it as long as I can find one in a loot chest. lol
Many players seem to not realize this game is based off of Dungeons and Dragons, and would rather just completely wing it all...true DDO isn't exactly the same as PnP, it has a lot of house rules.

DnD rules have the katana as a one edged sword, identical in stats to the bastard sword except that is takes exotic proficiency to use and is automatically masterwork.

SniptheShadow
06-11-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't mean to start a thread and get anyones feathers ruffled.

I just want a Katana in-game for a purely cosmetic/visual fix. I think it would look classy to see my 9th level human Rogue with a Katana in each hand (I'm a TWF build) standing outside a quest waiting on players to buy heal pots and repair and run over to get started.

I wasn't thinking about damage stats or D&D semantics at all. It just seems like something that is missing. If it does the exact same damage as a Bastard Sword, well...swell.

I just want more loot.

And I want it to be classy. I want style in my weapons, you know.

2 more cents...

Snip

Memnir
06-11-2008, 05:22 PM
Spears first!



:D

Dylos_Moon
06-11-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't mean to start a thread and get anyones feathers ruffled.

I just want a Katana in-game for a purely cosmetic/visual fix. I think it would look classy to see my 9th level human Rogue with a Katana in each hand (I'm a TWF build) standing outside a quest waiting on players to buy heal pots and repair and run over to get started.

I wasn't thinking about damage stats or D&D semantics at all. It just seems like something that is missing. If it does the exact same damage as a Bastard Sword, well...swell.

I just want more loot.

And I want it to be classy. I want style in my weapons, you know.

2 more cents...

Snip

There are already several katana models in ddo, just they are called longswords and bastard swords. You just have to keep your eyes open and see what the model looks like.

Hvymetal
06-11-2008, 06:48 PM
A Katana has a single sharp edge and a Bastard Sword is much heavier and can cut from both edges.

Also, I'd guess the Katana should be put in the finesse-able group. It is much closer to a Rapier in relation and looks than a big Bastard Sword.


Not really........ a Katana's main usage is still a slash. A Rapiers main usage is still a thrust. That's like saying it's closer to a greatsword than a longbow so we may as well make it get 1.5x str dmg as well..... totally different type of weapon/feel/weight range/style of usage.


Edit: And btw you guys all do realize that a Katana is not a monks weapon correct?

Aiyana
06-11-2008, 06:57 PM
Katanas are a curved version of a longsword, and if ya look a few longswords are with a Katana graphic. And IMO the Nature of a Katana and a Longsword are the same just a Katana is curved a bit more balanced. A Kopesh/Scimatar(sp) are "made" a little diff Scim with a larger blade at the top and a Kopesh just being oddly shaped in I guess makes it a bit more better for the crit scale =)

I could be wrong and probably am but thats my 2 cents

As from someone who owns and regularly practices with both I can tell you they are very different, Two completly different styles. You can use a long sword like a katana , but its not as easy to use a katana as a long sword. Also katanas tend to be much lighter (and faster) then most long swords. But considering the number of people I have seen call a epee or even a rapier a long sword I am not surprised most people don't realize the difference


QFT

Katanas are in NWN2, they have the exact same stats as a Bastard Sword.

1d10 Slashing base damage

19-20 critical range

x2 critical multiplier

Exotic weapon

Why would we need 2 weapons that have the exact same stats?

Thats just because the people that made the decision to treat it as a bastard sword are idiots.

RTN
06-11-2008, 08:36 PM
I think the reason people consider them a bastard sword because you can use a katana with both one and two hands, which is probably why the manuals give it the higher damage. It's much harder to two hand with a longsword.

Eudimio
06-11-2008, 09:58 PM
As from someone who owns and regularly practices with both I can tell you they are very different, Two completly different styles. You can use a long sword like a katana , but its not as easy to use a katana as a long sword. Also katanas tend to be much lighter (and faster) then most long swords. But considering the number of people I have seen call a epee or even a rapier a long sword I am not surprised most people don't realize the difference


lol! What's a longsword?

It's a generic D&D sword.

I should say that I want a gladius. But that's a shortsword.

Tanka
06-11-2008, 10:48 PM
Wow. What a load of misinformation in this thread.

1) Katana are hand-and-a-half weapons. Just as PnP bastard swords are.
2) Katana are no more faster than a broadsword (er, I mean, longsword. Yeah, longsword). Speed is dependent on the user.
3) Katana are nowhere near that of a rapier. In fact, they're so radically different it takes entirely different mindsets to use them properly.

Please, don't just ask for katana because "SAMURAI R KOOL OMGZ". If Turbine made an Asian-themed mod (and M7 doesn't count, nor does M2), then it would be understandable to add katana, sai, nunchuku, siangham or any other Asian-oriented weapon.

Until then, the kama nets the win only because Monks either use those or go unarmed (and seldomly use a quarterstaff).

Angelus_dead
06-11-2008, 10:57 PM
Please, don't just ask for katana because "SAMURAI R KOOL OMGZ". If Turbine made an Asian-themed mod (and M7 doesn't count, nor does M2), then it would be understandable to add katana, sai, nunchuku, siangham or any other Asian-oriented weapon.
No. There is no Asia in Eberron. Weapons derived from earth's Asia are neither more nor less appropriate to any particular update DDO might have.

Aiyana
06-11-2008, 11:17 PM
Wow. What a load of misinformation in this thread.
2) Katana are no more faster than a broadsword (er, I mean, longsword. Yeah, longsword). Speed is dependent on the user.


Your average katana is lighter then your average longsword (yes I know broadsword is the proper term but lets not confuse the masses) , so yes they are inherently faster. Try a iaijutsu strike or duel with a long sword.

RTN
06-11-2008, 11:23 PM
Wow. What a load of misinformation in this thread.

2) Katana are no more faster than a broadsword (er, I mean, longsword. Yeah, longsword). Speed is dependent on the user.


Not really. The weight, balance and use is different.

Tanka
06-11-2008, 11:37 PM
Not really. The weight, balance and use is different.
I'm not denying the balance and use are different. The weight, however, are similar. It's not light enough for someone to claim it's closer to a rapier than a broadsword.

And, yes, speed is still determined by the user, not the weapon. Iaijutsu or not, a superior broadsword fighter will be faster than a katana fighter.

RTN
06-12-2008, 08:30 AM
And, yes, speed is still determined by the user, not the weapon. Iaijutsu or not, a superior broadsword fighter will be faster than a katana fighter.

That's not a fair comparison. Users being equal, the katana will be faster.

KoboldKiller
06-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Because she is a character in another game and we don't want to make references to anything not DDO? :D

Tanka
06-12-2008, 09:39 AM
That's not a fair comparison. Users being equal, the katana will be faster.
Not true. Users being equal, it comes down to who makes the first mistake.

Period.

LawstCawz
06-12-2008, 10:07 AM
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm

Learn something. Katanas were an inferior tool to longswords in almost everyway.

Elsiah
06-12-2008, 10:18 AM
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm

Learn something. Katanas were an inferior tool to longswords in almost everyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

i disagree.

Also, i read that article, and the only thing i learned was that another biased writer has pretended not to be for the purpose of debunking myths while stating his opinion. I won't say that one is a better weapon than the other, as i have practiced extensively with the katana, wakazashi and tanto and not with a broadsword/longsword at all, so i have no basis to make that comparison. I say that while the article posted does contain some facts, it omits a tremendous amount of detail about japanese weaponry. The rigid quality standards that were followed in blacksmithing in japan for so many hundreds of years created a society that demanded perfection in its swords. That IS fact; every katana met a minimum standard (a high one) while pretty much any brit with a forge hot enough to shape a plow could make a broadsword.

SniptheShadow
06-12-2008, 10:31 AM
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm

Learn something. Katanas were an inferior tool to longswords in almost everyway.

That was a great article! What a good read!

Thanks!

Tanka
06-12-2008, 10:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

i disagree.
From the description:


Although this clip is biased towards the Katana's abilities
'Nuff said.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I've trained with both fairly extensively.


Also, i read that article, and the only thing i learned was that another biased writer has pretended not to be for the purpose of debunking myths while stating his opinion. I won't say that one is a better weapon than the other, as i have practiced extensively with the katana, wakazashi and tanto and not with a broadsword/longsword at all, so i have no basis to make that comparison. I say that while the article posted does contain some facts, it omits a tremendous amount of detail about japanese weaponry. The rigid quality standards that were followed in blacksmithing in japan for so many hundreds of years created a society that demanded perfection in its swords. That IS fact; every katana met a minimum standard (a high one) while pretty much any brit with a forge hot enough to shape a plow could make a broadsword.
As it is with anything today, if you want quality, you pay for it.

The same applied to broadswords in the Medieval and Renaissance periods.

Halpo
06-12-2008, 10:44 AM
Come on SPEAR WE NEED SPEARS!!!! I means spears are the simpliest weapon to make and we have none! I want a spear so I can skewer me some Halflings!!!!

GrayOldDruid
06-12-2008, 10:44 AM
I don't mean to start a thread and get anyones feathers ruffled.
I just want a Katana in-game for a purely cosmetic/visual fix.
I wasn't thinking about damage stats or D&D semantics at all. It just seems like something that is missing. If it does the exact same damage as a Bastard Sword, well...swell.
And I want it to be classy. I want style in my weapons, you know.


I don't see the harm in having some long swords or bastard swords visually resemble a Katana and call it a Katana.

Dude wants a Katana, give a Katana.

SniptheShadow
06-12-2008, 11:02 AM
I don't see the harm in having some long swords or bastard swords visually resemble a Katana and call it a Katana.

Dude wants a Katana, give a Katana.



Thank you so much!




I never meant to start a flame war on the Medieval vs Japanese weapon rant. Been there, done that in RL. No one wins.

And on a personal note, my own Asian studies of various forms of Budo in the Japanese tradition immeadiately biases me on a debate, so I bow out of that stuff. I just thought why not have em?

Other posters said they are in the game anyway, I just need to look. I'm looking now.

Snip

P.S I want spears, too.

RTN
06-12-2008, 01:04 PM
I think several models for long swords are katana like in appearance (single blade, slightly curved). It's too bad you can see what they look like on the AH or Vendors.

Hvymetal
06-12-2008, 08:44 PM
As to the Iajitsu with a Longsword (really a Broadsword), the curve in the Katana makes getting it out of a sheath a faster action than drawing a long straight sword. Iajitsu would probablly not be that difficult to pull off with several middle-eastern weapons but hard to do with European straight swords.

Yes a Katana is lighter and probablly moves quicker (no 1st hand experience just some playing around with Bokin(SP?)), I know a Rapier/Epee/Saber is a hell of a lot quicker to move around.

Most comparisons fail because of the two totally different mindsets to fighting taken by the various cultures. A Katana is more suited to quick strikes & strikes from horseback, most straight swords (well the larger ones anyways) from Europe were not as quick but packed more force into their blows due to weight (hell most weren't even kept that sharp) due to the evolution of hevier armors in Europe. This eventually caused a) people moving away from the sword period (for warfare)except as a symbol, since Maces, Axes & Polearms are more effective versus the heavier armors. b) for private use and towards the end of the period when gunpowder started to gain prominence for military use swords went to the Sabre/Rapier types (Military/Civilian for the most part) since the heavier armors were being reduced more and more since it wasn;t worth it's weight against gunpowder weapons.

Actually if someone wanted to do a more accurate similation of what battle vrs. the Heavily Armored Europeans vrs. more lightly armored and quicker Japanes would be to look at the various wars between the Christians and the Muslims. While there were plenty of exceptions (Mamalukes from Egypt come to mind) the Muslim world favored the Asian style of warfare. Now minus the extremes of heat from the deserts of the Middle East and you have an interesting fight on your hands :D.

Edit: Also there are some finely made European swords, they just cost a European a hell of a lot more of their income than a Katana would have cost a Japanese..

/end thread derailment

Missing_Minds
06-12-2008, 10:14 PM
I don't mean to start a thread and get anyones feathers ruffled.

I just want a Katana in-game for a purely cosmetic/visual fix. I think it would look classy to see my 9th level human Rogue with a Katana in each hand (I'm a TWF build) standing outside a quest waiting on players to buy heal pots and repair and run over to get started.

In other words you had no frelling clue just how HUGE a can of worms you opened up was *laughs*

but if you want it for pure cosmetic/visual fix, longswords already have the katana graphic. heck my first vorpal longsword was a katana by looks.

SniptheShadow
06-13-2008, 08:01 AM
In other words you had no frelling clue just how HUGE a can of worms you opened up was *laughs*

but if you want it for pure cosmetic/visual fix, longswords already have the katana graphic. heck my first vorpal longsword was a katana by looks.

You got that right! What a can of worms. Jeez!

I didn't realize how touchy a subject a Katana in-game could be. ***!!

And now that people have clued me in on some of the graphics showing Katana's anyhow, I'm cool.

Maybe I should've asked for a Pony?

Snip

esoitl
06-13-2008, 08:17 AM
As from someone who owns and regularly practices with both I can tell you they are very different, Two completly different styles. You can use a long sword like a katana , but its not as easy to use a katana as a long sword. Also katanas tend to be much lighter (and faster) then most long swords. But considering the number of people I have seen call a epee or even a rapier a long sword I am not surprised most people don't realize the difference


i have trained with Katanas and i would agree and disagree here
a long sword would likely make a terrible katana and be awkward two handing..... but that's neither here nor there

many people are arguing bastard swords = katanas which couldn't be further from the truth

1)katanas are generally used two handed whereas bastard swords are one handed
2)bastard swords are dual edged whereas katanas are single edged
3)bastard swords are longer and heavier than katanas which are typically 2.5' long and fairly light
4)bastard swords require great strength whereas a katana is more effective using technique and quick motions

you'd probably be looking at requiring an exotic weapon feat and treating these as 2 handed weapons if they were ever implemented.... sort of but not very attractive i would think beyond looks and 'cool' factor

In_Like_Flynn
06-13-2008, 09:24 AM
Dire Maces have waited longer. Back of the line, Katana.

Alavatar
06-13-2008, 10:34 AM
The greensteel longsword looks kind of like a katana. Get someone that has one to show you their graphic.

Mapa
06-13-2008, 01:03 PM
Spears first!



:D

Don't you mean squirrels first? With mini ninja suits, yea!!!

Stormanne
06-13-2008, 01:42 PM
A squire with a broadsword will get cut to ribbons by a samurai. A genin with a katana will get cut to ribbons by a knight. Its not the swords, its the users. As the article pointed out, two equal masters of each weapon squaring off, the outcome is unpredictable. Barring only on first strike and greater luck.

Alavatar
06-13-2008, 02:14 PM
A squire with a broadsword will get cut to ribbons by a samurai. A genin with a katana will get cut to ribbons by a knight. Its not the swords, its the users. As the article pointed out, two equal masters of each weapon squaring off, the outcome is unpredictable. Barring only on first strike and greater luck.

I wish more people would understand that. I have met too many people that (mistakenly) believe a samurai wielding a katana trumps all other melee combat styles.

Tanka
06-13-2008, 07:12 PM
I wish more people would understand that. I have met too many people that (mistakenly) believe a samurai wielding a katana trumps all other melee combat styles.
But Japanese culture is so superior to any other culture in the world!

:rolleyes:

salmag
06-13-2008, 07:17 PM
How about Tonfas, and Sai, as well as Katanas?

tenga
06-17-2008, 02:43 AM
Come on SPEAR WE NEED SPEARS!!!! I means spears are the simpliest weapon to make and we have none! I want a spear so I can skewer me some Halflings!!!!

amen, mobs have them, why can't we just stel them off their corpses :-/

Missing_Minds
06-17-2008, 12:12 PM
How about Tonfas, and Sai, as well as Katanas?

Sai and jutte graphics are in short swords.

LawstCawz
06-17-2008, 01:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

i disagree.

Also, i read that article, and the only thing i learned was that another biased writer has pretended not to be for the purpose of debunking myths while stating his opinion. I won't say that one is a better weapon than the other, as i have practiced extensively with the katana, wakazashi and tanto and not with a broadsword/longsword at all, so i have no basis to make that comparison. I say that while the article posted does contain some facts, it omits a tremendous amount of detail about japanese weaponry. The rigid quality standards that were followed in blacksmithing in japan for so many hundreds of years created a society that demanded perfection in its swords. That IS fact; every katana met a minimum standard (a high one) while pretty much any brit with a forge hot enough to shape a plow could make a broadsword.

So you're saying it's fair to compare a master blacksmith forging a katana to someone shaping a longsword of aluminum foil? Get real. :) The curve of a katana only makes it "look" better, but the edge of a katana is of little use past light armor, and in fact is inferior to a lognsword against an armored opponent. Katanas also do not wear very well in battle.