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View Full Version : Combat Expertise should be renamed...



efreet5
06-10-2008, 03:32 PM
I hereby start a petition for COMBAT EXPERTISE to be renamed to FRUSTRATION. :mad:

Potion Change? BAM! no CE for you!

Paladin? Psh! You can self heal...cause you're gonna need it since CE won't be up while you spam DF every 60s. And in between god knows you don't want to use those potions as well eh?

Seriously,

Either:

A) Remove the feat and acknowledge you never wanted it in. Clerics are supposed to heal low ac high hitpoint tanks that can't do anything on their own, right?

B) Reword the feat as such: Combat Expertise will increase AC at the expense of armor class, unless spellcasting, drinking a potion, using a clicky, breathing, sleeping, climbing ladder, falling, farting, chatting....

krud
06-10-2008, 03:34 PM
/signed

Kaldaka
06-10-2008, 03:39 PM
Yeah, this has become more than just a little annoying ...


/signed

johnrbimmer
06-10-2008, 03:48 PM
They certainly need to rethink this since I have noticed that having 60 AC actually means you do not get hit but we still need to drink the occasional heal pot to mitigate some of the damage you take.....

/signed.

Thrudh
06-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Yes, please fix Combat Expertise... It's very difficult to keep this running at all.

The penalty is -5 to hit... just like Power Attack's only penalty is -5 to hit... We don't need the other penalties. Both are stances. Make CE work like PA.

Make AC builds a viable choice, along with DPS builds.

Thank you.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 04:43 PM
I have made a suggestion like that before (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=148202), so I'll /sign it.

You forgot "land a fnishing move".

Treerat
06-10-2008, 05:44 PM
/signed

If a non-caster is going to invest the points into Intelligence, a feat, and take a -5 to hit for +5 AC - the least Turbine could do is not break even more things. Bad enough they wrecked Divine Light for Paladins & clerics (I need ki to use it?!), but now they put the shaft to those rare AC-tanks who actually focus on groups.

Me thinks Turbine is shaving budget from DDOs QA department and only recruiting the "yes this is perfect" people for play testing. Should I be suprised though? Haven't met a US-based company yet that actually wants to hear that they missed the mark on their product and need to go redo things.

Gol
06-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Just want to point out that casting a spell is supposed to turn off Combat Expertise. The rest is broken, I agree.

krud
06-10-2008, 07:36 PM
Just want to point out that casting a spell is supposed to turn off Combat Expertise. The rest is broken, I agree.
but that IS the problem. Casting anything, i.e. divine favor, a clickie, a wand, etc, turns it off. It's very annoying, especially to paladins, who most likely will be casting divine favor right before a battle. Click divine favor, click CE, wait for it to activate and pray you don't need to use certain potions or heal anything during the fight, because if you do you won't be able to turn CE back on. Even if they changed the cooldown it would still require click DF, click CE, fight, heal, click CE, fight,... still annoying

jkm
06-10-2008, 10:43 PM
while we are at it can we remove sneak off the combat expertise timer? i know assassinate is bugged, but when it gets fixed i don't want to click CE and then have to wait 30 seconds to get into sneak mode...

gserlenga
06-11-2008, 02:33 AM
/signed

Devs please take note, this is in my opinion a must fix for the upcoming 7.1 patch. If you don't fix it you are really making it hard on non-caster ac builds based around taking a 13int for the combat expertise feat. In fact I hope and pray that 7.1 is chock full of fixes, the bugs are accumulating and it is getting quite ridiculous, please don't tell me this is the future of DDO.

Inspire
06-11-2008, 03:11 AM
/Signed. Would Like It Changed Similar To Power Attack. I Dont See Any Reason Not To?

Borror0
06-11-2008, 03:18 AM
/Signed. Would Like It Changed Similar To Power Attack. I Dont See Any Reason Not To?

The only reason is that in PnP you get your bonus only while attacking, so if you cast a spell you can't have it.

That's their reasoning. I dont see a reason to have it not give the AC bonus for a few seconds after casting a spell rather than turning it off.

PS: Any of your gimps logged on atm?

Inspire
06-11-2008, 04:01 AM
The only reason is that in PnP you get your bonus only while attacking, so if you cast a spell you can't have it.

That's their reasoning. I dont see a reason to have it not give the AC bonus for a few seconds after casting a spell rather than turning it off.

PS: Any of your gimps logged on atm?

This Is True, Never Played PnP, Is Power Attack Supposed To Act The Same Way?

Ps: Yes, Dragon Elite Favor, 5:30EST With Skalpel, Im Bringing My Monk. "Bashful - Rogue" Atm.

Borror0
06-11-2008, 04:09 AM
This Is True, Never Played PnP, Is Power Attack Supposed To Act The Same Way?

Yes in the sense that you only get the bonus while attacking... but having a +5 bonus to damage while casting Divine Favor won't change anything, whereas having +5 AC while casting it might make it that you will not get it. The reason is valid, the implementation, however, is poor.


Yes, Dragon Elite Favor, 5:30EST With Skalpel, Im Bringing My Monk. "Bashful - Rogue" Atm.

I saw that, don't feel like listenning to Gax's non-sense for a whole Elite VoN 5-6.

Kaldaka
06-11-2008, 06:48 AM
The only reason is that in PnP you get your bonus only while attacking, so if you cast a spell you can't have it.

That's their reasoning.


Spells are one thing .... but potions?!?!?!?! COME ON GIVE US A BREAK DEVS!!!!


Oh and the barbarian that can't remove his own curse while raged .... that is another thing altogether ....

Borror0
06-11-2008, 06:59 AM
Spells are one thing .... but potions?!?!?!?! COME ON GIVE US A BREAK DEVS!!!!


Oh and the barbarian that can't remove his own curse while raged .... that is another thing altogether ....

That's a bug, someone seems to have forgotten to apply the new tech of Lesser Restoration to the other potions.:rolleyes:

parvo
06-11-2008, 07:11 AM
Obviously, innate spells should turn Conbat Expertise off. Clickies and potions should not. I had trouble working this with my last warrior. Was going to re-spec out of Combat Expertise but he died.

Gol
06-11-2008, 08:03 AM
but that IS the problem. Casting anything, i.e. divine favor, a clickie, a wand, etc, turns it off. It's very annoying, especially to paladins, who most likely will be casting divine favor right before a battle. Click divine favor, click CE, wait for it to activate and pray you don't need to use certain potions or heal anything during the fight, because if you do you won't be able to turn CE back on. Even if they changed the cooldown it would still require click DF, click CE, fight, heal, click CE, fight,... still annoying
Casting Divine Favor is SUPPOSED to turn of CE. It's how the feat works. The potions/LoH are broken, I agree, but the text of CE, in both DDO and PnP, says that casting a spell turns it off. That's how it's meant to work.

Borror0
06-11-2008, 08:07 AM
Casting Divine Favor is SUPPOSED to turn of CE. It's how the feat works. The potions/LoH are broken, I agree, but the text of CE, in both DDO and PnP, says that casting a spell turns it off. That's how it's meant to work.

Nope, wrong.

You simple can't benefit from CE while casting a spell. Not the same, no need to turn the stance off, just cut the bonus.

Inspire
06-11-2008, 08:10 AM
Obviously, innate spells should turn Conbat Expertise off. Clickies and potions should not. I had trouble working this with my last warrior. Was going to re-spec out of Combat Expertise but he died.

The Nuisance Is Not The Fact That It Turns Itself Off, Its That The 30 Lockout For Casting Is Terrible And Of Course, Turning It Back On.

So Compensate For This And To Make Both Parties Happy So CE Is Not Overpowered, Perhaps It Should Automatically Turn Itself Back On After You Finish Casting The Spell, Unless Of Course You Yourself Physically Turn It Off. This Makes it So You Take Your Natural Ac While Casting, And As Soon as Your Finished You Can Have The Ac Bonus Back.

The Cooldown Isnt Necessary.

Gol
06-11-2008, 08:15 AM
Nope, wrong.

You simple can't benefit from CE while casting a spell. Not the same, no need to turn the stance off, just cut the bonus.


This feat subtracts 5 from the character's attack roll, and increases his Armor Class by 5. Casting a spell ends this mode.

lazy link: http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combat_Expertise

Reading comprehension for the win.

Dimicron
06-11-2008, 08:21 AM
lazy link: http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combat_Expertise

Reading comprehension for the win.

I believe that Borror0 is talking about the way it works in PnP, we are actually arguing against the way it works in DDO to try to change it's implementation in DDO to be more useful.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise


Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 13.
Benefit

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal

A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special

A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Borror0
06-11-2008, 08:35 AM
lazy link: http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combat_Expertise

Reading comprehension for the win.

hehe, funny... having the wiki quoted to me.:p Gotta love the irony.:D

Like Dimicron, I know how it works in DDO, but I was refering to the way it is in PnP and advocating to change to a less annoying version. There is nothing from PnP stopping us from doing it.

rimble
06-11-2008, 08:41 AM
hehe, funny... having the wiki quoted to me.:p Gotta love the irony.:D

That is pretty funny. Anyways, I agree this is really annoying. Suppress the AC bonus for 5 to 10 seconds after I cast a spell if you want, but save me from toggle hell. If they have some fear of casters running around with CE and getting a 'free' 5AC, since they don't attack, then do something to fix it in the Enhancement system (available to Paladins, Rangers, and Bards) or maybe tie it to a BaB that pure casters can't reach: +12 or +14 maybe.

krud
06-11-2008, 08:45 AM
Casting Divine Favor is SUPPOSED to turn of CE. It's how the feat works. The potions/LoH are broken, I agree, but the text of CE, in both DDO and PnP, says that casting a spell turns it off. That's how it's meant to work.

Only in DDO does it say that casting a spell turns CE off. In PnP you simply state for the round you are attacking that you will employ CE. During a round when you cast a spell you are not attacking, so you can't use CE (except for touch spells which are considered an attack, in which case you may still use CE). If you attack in the following round you simply declare CE again. We are trying to get DDO CE to work more like PnP, where it can be automatically active, inactive and then active again, without the hassle of the cooldown, or endless toggling.

One of the most popular solutions was to have CE suppressed for 6 seconds after casting a spell, wand, or clickie.

Borror0
06-11-2008, 08:57 AM
That is pretty funny.

It took me like 6 seconds to realise I acutally had someone liking me to the wiki, that's just awesome.:D


Suppress the AC bonus for 5 to 10 seconds after I cast a spell if you want, but save me from toggle hell.

I'd go for the universal 6s for buff used so far in DDO.


Maybe tie it to a BaB that pure casters can't reach: +12 or +14 maybe.

Problem is, melee character with lower than that BAB won't be able to get it... honestly, I don't see giving AC to casters being that overpowered.

rimble
06-11-2008, 09:11 AM
Problem is, melee character with lower than that BAB won't be able to get it... honestly, I don't see giving AC to casters being that overpowered.

Nor do I, just trying to figure out why they made it this way in the first place.

Borror0
06-11-2008, 09:13 AM
Nor do I, just trying to figure out why they made it this way in the first place.

Option 1, technical limitation.
Option 2, someone was too lazy to create something around the technical limitation.
Option 3, he actually thought it'd not be annoying.

krud
06-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Nor do I, just trying to figure out why they made it this way in the first place.

back in the day when cap was 10 it was possible to make a cleric or a caster with AC that mattered. I guess they thought giving them a permanent +5 AC bonus without any penalty would be too much. Now, unless you gimp your caster in some way, it's next to impossible to get a decent AC for any caster. Possibly a few niche battle clerics still could, but I really don't see a plethora of those springing up if CE were changed.

Simonhook
06-11-2008, 03:16 PM
/signed

mdlaurie
06-11-2008, 07:08 PM
from the dev chat:

[10:01] <@zigzag> *gyr* Is drinking a potion supposed to dump you out of combat expertise or is this just a bug? if so, when will it be fixed?
[10:01] <+Eladrin> It's not intended that Combat Expertise drop after using potions (or monk finishers).
[10:02] <+Eladrin> We're looking at various solutions including changing the basic nature of Combat Expertise.