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Talcyndl
06-09-2008, 09:40 PM
So now that they are, many folks...

Well, you've read the posts.

:rolleyes:

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 09:47 PM
I, for one, will believe it when I see it.

After all I've just seen soooooooo much marketing and advertising over the past year or so. :rolleyes:

I can't imagine that saving a few scoop tidbits here and there is going to all of a sudden be a major marketing blitz but my 6 months isn't up until October so I've got some time to wait and see.

mgoldb2
06-09-2008, 09:47 PM
We don’t believe them. To put shortly I been disappointed way to many time by results of changes made over the past 2 years that am not very confident that this will have the benefits they claim.

Borror0
06-09-2008, 09:55 PM
I don't see how the WDAs are preventing them to give exclusives in interviews.

Talcyndl
06-09-2008, 10:01 PM
I don't see how the WDAs are preventing them to give exclusives in interviews.

Which part don't you get?

Drider
06-09-2008, 10:03 PM
Which part don't you get?


qft.

All these websites are going to want some exclusive information. Meaning they can't just give the same info to all the sites, they have to give some to site A, some to site B, etc.

Talcyndl
06-09-2008, 10:04 PM
We don’t believe them. To put shortly I been disappointed way to many time by results of changes made over the past 2 years that am not very confident that this will have the benefits they claim.

I've only been here a year and a half...but in that time I've never seen:

(1) Turbine get $40 million which would enable more marketing.

(2) Turbine officially state they were going to be making a signifant marketing push for DDO.

Who knows...

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 10:04 PM
I don't see how the WDAs are preventing them to give exclusives in interviews.
I can imagine.

Dev Code -> Clearcase -> Tolero -> Dazzling report to PR (whoever the heck that is) -> Magazines

as opposed to:

Dev Code -> Clearcase -> Tolero -> WDA -> Mass Arguing -> Tolero cleaning up -> Mass Arguing -> Tolero cleaning up -> Mangled report to PR -> file 13.

Or something like that.

I am kind of figuring that "PR" is clueless as to what the DDO devs are doing, and it will require the community team, who at this point is really only Tolero (and her guard cube & kobold), to translate for them.

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 10:05 PM
Which part don't you get?


The part where Granting Exclusive Interviews means we cant get a WDA.....

They have been doing WDAs and granting interviews quite a bit over the last couple months.

They havent been overly forthcoming about what a mod contains in quite some time. (Mod 5 maybe?)

The game has little to no Presense on the shelves right now.

Major concerns the player base have continue to go unacknowldged or ignored.

Need I go on?

Spell
06-09-2008, 10:09 PM
I can imagine.
....
....
I am kind of figuring that "PR" is clueless as to what the DDO devs are doing, and it will require the community team, who at this point is really only Tolero (and her guard cube & kobold), to translate for them.

Hopefully the $40M is for a phone so PR can call Dev's???!

Bombalo
06-09-2008, 10:13 PM
More marketing does not mean a spot in Ten Ton Hammer and another spot on some random gamer site somewhere else. Unfortunately this is what Turbine interprets as marketing. They need to do some main stream marketing (which has NEVERNEVERNEVERNEVERNEVER been done for this game).

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 10:14 PM
Hopefully the $40M is for a phone so PR can call Dev's???!
Turbine may be small enough that this happens, but in any company of any size PR don't talk to Devs. That's like wizards and barbarians talking to each other... just doesn't happen.

Usually it's:

Devs <- Dev Manager <- Project Manager <- Executives (and/or Product Managers) -> Sales/PR/Marketing -> Outside World.

Talcyndl
06-09-2008, 10:57 PM
The part where Granting Exclusive Interviews means we cant get a WDA.....

I think it was pretty clearly explained. If you think they're lying, not much I can say.

Borror0
06-09-2008, 10:59 PM
I think it was pretty clearly explained. If you think they're lying, not much I can say.

Ok, Tal, you seem to understand it better than I.

How is the information we usually find in WDAs any interesting for a website like mmorpg.com

Auran82
06-09-2008, 11:02 PM
Hopefully this doesn't mean more confusing and misleading articles from other gaming sites where it seems they don't even have an editor to proofread the articles before they're published.

Pellegro
06-09-2008, 11:03 PM
I think it was pretty clearly explained. If you think they're lying, not much I can say.


I respect their decision, and I think there are plenty of good reasons for dropping the WDAs.

But I think its naive to think they could not have continued to release some form of a WDA to us - even in terms of direction, areas being looked at, things "on the table", etc., all while still providing exclusives for marketing purposes.

Mod 7 did just that. We had WDAs (e.g. "Monks are now a playable class!") while simultaneously they were granting exclusives leaking details, vids, etc.

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 11:03 PM
Ok, Tal, you seem to understand it better than I.

How is the information we usually find in WDAs any interesting for a website like mmorpg.com

yeah, I'd love to see mmorpg get excited about having the exclusive on what bugs are being worked on.:rolleyes:

Borror0
06-09-2008, 11:10 PM
Hopefully this doesn't mean more confusing and misleading articles from other gaming sites where it seems they don't even have an editor to proofread the articles before they're published.

I'm scared of that too. "Mobility is DPS", guys?


I think its naive to think they could not have continued to release some form of a WDA to us - even in terms of direction, areas being looked at, things "on the table", etc., all while still providing exclusives for marketing purposes.

Mod 7 did just that. We had WDAs (e.g. "Monks are now a playable class!") while simultaneously they were granting exclusives leaking details, vids, etc.

I think the same, I have trouble seeing why they have to drop WDA to give previews...


yeah, I'd love to see mmorpg get excited about having the exclusive on what bugs are being worked on.:rolleyes:

Exactly.;)

RTN
06-09-2008, 11:11 PM
How is the information we usually find in WDAs any interesting for a website like mmorpg.com

I won't say I'm entirely happy about this change, unless it does actually result in more PR->subscribers->money->content.

I think you're also right that a lot of the WDA info won't interfere with the meat of what PR would want (particularly fixes and adjustments since Turbine will hardly want to focus attention on problems even after they're fixed), but it's about the suits on both ends and the perception of getting an "exclusive" (cue climactic music). You're looking at the nitty gritty, like most of us; the suits on both ends (and their advertisers) find the appearance and guarantee of exclusivity to be very important. I assume they're (the suits at the websites, magazines, etc.) insisting on exclusivity across the board, which is why they're not doing the WDA anymore.

Think of it this way, if we're not getting the info here in WDA, we're much more likely to go to these other websites and magazines to get the info (hopefully the DDO staff here will be much better than they've been about linking us to it in a timely manner). That helps their bottom line, which is why they want the exclusivity. Now, you can easily say we'd go there anyway, but I'd bet more of us would go if we couldn't get that info here in a WDA.

A side benefit is that we rant and rave less each and every time a WDA comes out. They can save that up for first look and final releases and only deal with the grief twice rather than each week. Hopefully, they'll use that saved time and headaches to do something productive for us! :D

Hopefully we'll also get more individualized tidbits (like the one about fixing the blade barrier bug) before patches go through or we see new content. That makes us happy and interested, which is also in Turbine's best interest.

I'm not saying I agree with it all, but I'd bet this is their thinking.

MageLL
06-09-2008, 11:15 PM
Market DDO where? Marketing it in to the Asians will not have any direct effect on us for a long time. If the game does great in Asia, then they may have more money to put into the game thus giving us more content. That however will take a while to trickle down.

I would like to see a parrel DDO released to North American and Euro markets which runs with but not exclusive to DDO Stormreach. Something like City of Heroes and City of Villains did.

GeneralDiomedes
06-09-2008, 11:22 PM
Ok, Tal, you seem to understand it better than I.

How is the information we usually find in WDAs any interesting for a website like mmorpg.com

Dungeons and Dragons Online: Crunching Paladin Numbers

Today we bring you an MMORPG Exclusive! Our resident math expert checks out Turbine's latest offering and decides if the Paladin changes are all they are cracked up to be. Will the Paladin be a sought after day saver, or will it continue to be the domain of role players and static groups? Read on to find out! Must have Microsoft Excel.

Borror0
06-09-2008, 11:53 PM
Dungeons and Dragons Online: Cruching Paladin Numbers

Today we bring you an MMORPG Exclusive! Our resident math expert checks out Turbine's latest offering and decides if the Paladin changes are all they are cracked up to be. Will the Paladin be a sought after day saver, or will it continue to be the domain of role players and static groups? Read on to find out! Must have Microsoft Excel.

Ok, and your point is? that they're tired of me pointing out there mistakes?

I've said it, I believe I'm right when I say that. I have my views on how to ifx paladins and I'm vocal about it. If they really want us, because I am not alone, to stop, they have to choices. Either they do something about it enough to please us. It doesn't need to be a perfect fix, because we're a long way to go to get there, but at least fixing the DPS issues would be a bare minimum. Or, they could come down to the forums and explain us as to why they defer in their stance.

If you don't like having your mistakes pointed out at you, then don't make any. If you can't stand earing that you're not totally perfect like some people who don't want to admit that paladin is a weak class (not unplayable, not gimped, but weaker than others), then an MMO is not a good place for you to work. Turbine is adoing a great job, must of the time. This game, by its design, is totally addicting. I just want to make it even better.

Honestly, I don't that it's the complaints that made them stop.

If you believe that I'm wrong about paladins, well I'm working on a thread called "Issues met at end game", or a more fitting title. I'll discuss about all the metagaming flaws that Turbine should try to correct. I'll expose facts that they haven't consider, thought of or simply underestimated their impact. If you believe that I am wrong, then I'll meet you there. I'm always open to a civil discussion with people that disagree with me, that where you make most progress.

GeneralDiomedes
06-10-2008, 12:07 AM
Ok, and your point is? that they're tired of me pointing out there mistakes?


Oh dear. I fear my attempt at humour was undetected :)

Borror0
06-10-2008, 12:08 AM
I won't say I'm entirely happy about this change, unless it does actually result in more PR->subscribers->money->content.

Yes, but WDA = player retention.

Do you remember what it did when Eladrin leaked the three PrE for rangers? Threads started poping left and right, all they knew was.. the names! So, they kept talking and talking about what it could be, for over a week. Then, Tempest I came out... and then you saw tons of rangers build coming out, then a bunch of Tempest I builds. 10 rogue/6 ranger, 10 fighter/6 ranger, etc. WDAs makes you dream, makes you look up to something.

There is a lot of information that won't be found there.

Besides, WDAs were on Monday. Someone who just wants to read them only have to log on Monday. Maybe check the Dev Tracker once in a while, heck he could just use willphase's RSS for that. Now, he'll have to search a few websites that will doubtlessly containt less information than the current WDAs... unless mmorpg.com feels like telling us that they have fied Balde Barrier in module 8, after 3 months. Wait, that's not good publicity, eh?

Fact is, WDAs and previews had two different roles.


It's about the suits on both ends and the perception of getting an "exclusive".

I have always hated suits.

Fact is, I'll probably end up being a suit... difference is, I'll know the worth of those under me. They're the men on the field. No matter how theorical I can get, they probably know better than I. If Turbine cannot make that understood to a website, then they just have to tell him that they'll go see someone else. Either the suit will change his mind and trust Turbine when they say that do have exclusive even if Turbine are releasing information, or they loose any access to information for DDO.


Think of it this way, if we're not getting the info here in WDA, we're much more likely to go to these other websites and magazines to get the info (hopefully the DDO staff here will be much better than they've been about linking us to it in a timely manner). That helps their bottom line, which is why they want the exclusivity.

Not really, there are tons of stuff that isn't covered by WDAs. Just look at how they handled monk to understand better.
(Although they should have gotten more into technical details in their interviews, would have made it more interesting to us.)


A side benefit is that we rant and rave less each and every time a WDA comes out. They can save that up for first look and final releases and only deal with the grief twice rather than each week.

On the other hand, they loose early feedback.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 12:09 AM
Oh dear. I fear my attempt at humour was undetected :)

I got it and laughed, but then I don't see the point in this thread.

Cendaer
06-10-2008, 02:16 AM
I got it and laughed, but then I don't see the point in this thread.

... yet you already seem to have devoted an ample amount of time and attention to it ...

DaveyCrockett
06-10-2008, 05:36 AM
I got it and laughed, but then I don't see the point in this thread.

He was making a tongue-in-cheek exagerrated example of your point.

Chill out Borr, every since the contest week you've been a different person.

-DfC

Gordo
06-10-2008, 05:46 AM
What a hoax! You actually assume the WDA qualified as a means of marketing? That its impact of not being there will effect marketing of the game? Are you serious? This was a nice thing for the players you already have. It has and will have no impact on new prospective cusomers who don't even bother coming to the boards. All they want to see is a big damn dragon cardboard cut out in EB games and GameStop that screams "Hey look at me! My company puts money ino real advertising!"

You assume we are all stupid and that is even more insulting than taking down the WDA. Who runs your marketing department? Tell them to send me a PM so I can tell them how to not only market the game to new customers in a positive way and not **** off the customers you already have.

All you needed to do was see how many views the WDA had to know how important it was to the existing base.

You guys are simply wrong on this. End of story.

Angelus_dead
06-10-2008, 05:56 AM
Not really, there are tons of stuff that isn't covered by WDAs. Just look at how they handled monk to understand better.
(Although they should have gotten more into technical details in their interviews, would have made it more interesting to us.)
A reporter from a game site doesn't have the ability to handle technical details. Their knowledge of DDO is minimal at best, and it would take a fairly good player to get that stuff right. Furthermore, their audience isn't served by that info... non-players who just have a small interest in maybe subscribing someday have different wants and needs.

Angelus_dead
06-10-2008, 06:02 AM
I think it was pretty clearly explained. If you think they're lying, not much I can say.
Their explanation does not make sense. It cannot possibly be true.

Therefore, they're either lying or mistaken. Or both: willfully delusional with wishful-thinking.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 06:14 AM
He was making a tongue-in-cheek exagerrated example of your point.

heh, I got that but I don't get his point within the context.

Talcyndl
06-10-2008, 07:26 AM
Their explanation does not make sense. It cannot possibly be true.

Therefore, they're either lying or mistaken. Or both: willfully delusional with wishful-thinking.

Ok.

I've been reading PC Gaming magazines and websites for many, many years. Given the attention paid to "exclusives" the explanation makes sense to me.

Still not sure what part is confusing.

:shrug:

RazorrX
06-10-2008, 07:51 AM
Most magazines and web sites like the whole "FIRST LOOK!" thing when talking about a product. WDAs kind of take that away.

Also the WDAs tend to fill up with arguing and complaining. I would hate to have to go through that every monday.

I notice Patience posted the notice, not seen Q for a while now. Either he is on Vacation or moved to another property or . . .

Borror0
06-10-2008, 07:52 AM
I notice Patience posted the notice, not seen Q for a while now. Either he is on Vacation or moved to another property or . . .

From his signature: So long, and thanks for everything!

Ron
06-10-2008, 07:55 AM
Ok.

I've been reading PC Gaming magazines and websites for many, many years. Given the attention paid to "exclusives" the explanation makes sense to me.

Still not sure what part is confusing.

:shrug:

Okay, I'll give it a try then. I just pointed this out in the other thread, but I suppose it could bear repeating.

The WDA gave us things like:


Halfling Guile I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.

and


Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.

and


Tomb of the Blighted
Vials of Blessed Water now remove the slow portion of blight rot in addition to the ability damage portion.
Gelatinous Cubes in this tomb will no longer be so... stubborn.

Do you think we're gonig to get that in press releases on mmorpg.com? No. What we will get (at best) is something like

"Halflings will get a new line of enhancements - Halfling Guile, adding to their sneak attack damage and bluff skills."

with no mention at all of the other two (because it doesn't interest them). 90% of what we get in the WDAs is of no interest to people who print press releases.

And THAT'S the sticking point. We cannot possibly get the information we really need to give informed feedback to the devs from those kind of releases (which leads to discussion, which leads to changes being made to improve the game BEFORE they end up on Risia, when it's too late to change). What we need is what we got out of the WDAs. What we are going to get in the future is going to lead to a lot of guessing and conjecture. And boy, won't that have a postive influence on what gets posted on the forums :rolleyes:

Basicly, what they are doing is cutting us out of the loop. The devs, apparently, are no longer interested in what we think of upcoming changes to the game.

MysticTheurge
06-10-2008, 08:36 AM
How is the information we usually find in WDAs any interesting for a website like mmorpg.com

You assume that it's a question of specific content and not a question of manpower. There's no way to know is one and not the other. (The likeliest scenario to me is that it's probably both.)


Yes, but WDA = player retention.

That's a bit absurd. If people are staying on this game solely because of the WDAs then they're not really going to be around for much longer anyway.

Plenty of other games have good player retention without releasing weekly updates on what the devs are doing.


Do you remember what it did when Eladrin leaked the three PrE for rangers? Threads started poping left and right, all they knew was.. the names! So, they kept talking and talking about what it could be, for over a week. Then, Tempest I came out... and then you saw tons of rangers build coming out, then a bunch of Tempest I builds. 10 rogue/6 ranger, 10 fighter/6 ranger, etc. WDAs makes you dream, makes you look up to something.

First, Eladrin didn't leak the information in the WDAs. Heck, he didn't even leak it in a WDA thread.

Second, why do you think this sort of information will stop being communicated?

Third, there were some pretty significant negative elements to the ranger PrEs being leaked so early. Namely the "Oh that? That doesn't count. We've known that was coming for months now." factor.


And THAT'S the sticking point. We cannot possibly get the information we really need to give informed feedback to the devs from those kind of releases (which leads to discussion, which leads to changes being made to improve the game BEFORE they end up on Risia, when it's too late to change).

And that's my biggest hesitation too. Especially since there have been a few cases where we gave feedback and they realized what they were planning to do was a big mistake.

But really, we don't actually have some kind of god-given right to weigh in on content and changes before they get implemented. Heck, in many ways, it may be better for us to not be able to, since it will force people to actually interact with the stuff (instead of just looking at the numbers) before they make a judgment call. Remember all the hullabaloo about the enhancement change before anyone had even used it?

As long as Turbine is still open to hearing feedback, and is willing to adjust things that really need adjusting in hotfixes or in X.1s, then I'm ok with not really knowing the details of everything until the release notes get posted.

Riddikulus
06-10-2008, 08:45 AM
Remember all the hullabaloo about the enhancement change before anyone had even used it?
Yes, and a lot of it was for good reason. A lot of changes to the enhancement system went in before it went live due to player feedback on the problems with the system. They had not even considered the effect of removing so much in the way of skill points... even though it was mentioned repeatedly rogues were still messed up for a couple months after the change went in because several trap DCs were absurdly high in relation to the new skill levels.

So now we'll get a glossy high level first look in a magazine, and the change will go live and will have to be patched several times before it works. Yeah that's going to be great!


As long as Turbine is still open to hearing feedback, and is willing to adjust things that really need adjusting in hotfixes or in X.1s, then I'm ok with not really knowing the details of everything until the release notes get posted.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think having to have more stuff in hotfixes is the way to go.

Pellegro
06-10-2008, 09:19 AM
But really, we don't actually have some kind of god-given right to weigh in on content and changes before they get implemented. Heck, in many ways, it may be better for us to not be able to, since it will force people to actually interact with the stuff (instead of just looking at the numbers) before they make a judgment call. Remember all the hullabaloo about the enhancement change before anyone had even used it?

This is true, and a good point.

But it has to be balanced against the fact that many players enjoyed the WDAs. They were fun. They gave people something to discuss/argue about (and if you didn't like that you didn't have to participate). They also gave players at least a minimal sense of contribution.

Now, that is gone. That has to count for something.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 09:32 AM
That's a bit absurd. If people are staying on this game solely because of the WDAs then they're not really going to be around for much longer anyway.

Plenty of other games have good player retention without releasing weekly updates on what the devs are doing.

I think that's what you call a straw man.

Of course people don't stay in the game because of the WDAs, but they saure do leave because of the lack of content. With Module 6 and 7 being so anemic on quests, there is no worse time to shut the WDAs. I mean, Module 7 was awesome. Give me a real Module with like 5-6 quests morethan Module 7 had... and you'd get a lot of people staying. However, monks will get old soon. Even sooner for those without an empty character slot...

Players don't stay for the WDAs, but because they love the game. WDAs are just what's ahead. I don't know if you remember the bunch of lies that was the last State of the Game adress, but the goal was clearly player retention.They release a killer Module, probably their best for most people, and then promised us Monks in the fall, level 16 in December/January with half-orcs and half-elves and a bunch of other untrue things that I can't remember much. I'm sure that their number of cancel accounts was never so low but at that time, even after the mess of Module 3.3

WDAs do the same, they make people dream. Interviews do the same, but in a totally different way. They fulfill two different role.


First, Eladrin didn't leak the information in the WDAs. Heck, he didn't even leak it in a WDA thread.

That's irrevelant and does not refute my argument.


Second, why do you think this sort of information will stop being communicated?

Nope, but the WDAs were a place for that "Woot! That spell/enhancement/feat is sooooooo cool!!"


Third, there were some pretty significant negative elements to the ranger PrEs being leaked so early. Namely the "Oh that? That doesn't count. We've known that was coming for months now." factor.

There will always be whinners, but to be honest, that's also Turbine's fault to have spaced the content.

So much space between content isn't a good thing... but I guess it's too costy for them otherwise.


And that's my biggest hesitation too. Especially since there have been a few cases where we gave feedback and they realized what they were planning to do was a big mistake.

It's my biggest problem with it too.


Heck, in many ways, it may be better for us to not be able to, since it will force people to actually interact with the stuff (instead of just looking at the numbers) before they make a judgment call. Remember all the hullabaloo about the enhancement change before anyone had even used it?

A few points:


There will be Risia and Risia's Release Notes.
You mention being scared, but then talk about the numbers.
I was for the change back then, allowed more diversification.

Most of the concerns were about:



Human Versatiltiy - It was justified, lots of build lost a lot at that moment.
Rogues - They had trouble getting traps after, didn't they?



Looking at numbers usually works, except those things where it's obvious there is no theory to analyse it. (Like WotA II)
There was a huge lack of communication from Turbine, would have they let the numbers out more clearly and explained themselves... we would have mad less noise.



But really, we don't actually have some kind of god-given right to weigh in on content and changes before they get implemented.

That's called feedback, and lsitenning to your players... which is actually a good thing to keep your players happy.

Changes your players don't like = Bad
Changes your players love = Good

You know it, it's not a god-given right, it's that it's clever of them to listen to us. We're the ones that play.

Tanka
06-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I'm still not sure why WDA and Exclusive Content are somehow mutually exclusive. I mean, look at M6. There was a WDA and exclusive content for various MMO websites.

They want exclusive content? Then give them storyline -- something non-players can sink their teeth into rather than some numbers they won't understand. Non-players won't get bugfixes. They won't get Enhancement changes, nor Spell, nor Feat, nor item changes. Those things will all go over their heads.

It's just another pitiful attempt at bringing in a playerbase that doesn't care that much except about the next big MMO that's coming out.

Patience
06-10-2008, 10:07 AM
Turbine may be small enough that this happens, but in any company of any size PR don't talk to Devs. That's like wizards and barbarians talking to each other... just doesn't happen.

It does at Turbine. Our PR and marketing folks are all gamers. :)

You know that we're pretty cautious about telling our communities things until we're sure they're going to happen. Earlier this year Marketroid told you we'd be stepping up marketing and PR for DDO. That time is rapidly approaching. The WDAs weren't pulled lightly; this just happened to be the right time.

-Meghan

Missing_Minds
06-10-2008, 10:13 AM
It does at Turbine. Our PR and marketing folks are all gamers. :)

You know that we're pretty cautious about telling our communities things until we're sure they're going to happen. Earlier this year Marketroid told you we'd be stepping up marketing and PR for DDO. That time is rapidly approaching. The WDAs weren't pulled lightly; this just happened to be the right time.

-Meghan

But.. I mean you pulled it but you didn't even offer us guacamole. :( Or is Keeper hording it all still?

Borror0
06-10-2008, 10:16 AM
The WDAs weren't pulled lightly; this just happened to be the right time.

The right time as in, "At the moment the game has had its two most anemic in quests Modules in a row?"

Sorry to sound rude, but this seems like the worse time to me.

MysticTheurge
06-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Sorry to sound rude

:rolleyes:

Zenako
06-10-2008, 10:52 AM
$$ and lead time issues are coming to bear here I suspect.

To get stuff into "mainstream" mags like PCGamer et al, those articles need to be getting crafted now for later summer release. They have a multimonth leadtime on publications like that. To create a buzz for something happening in the Fall, you want to hit the newstands with something this summer, and follow it up with more PR leading up to the actual release. When you work the dates backwards, that means you need to be ready to go late spring with the details of the fall release, and if you are going out on a more public limb with something like that you REALLY need to hit those dates in the fall or everything goes to the ^%&^^&%.

So that is why the "time was right" to cut off the flow of new news.

Now WHAT They should strongly consider doing is to maintain a WDA that pertains to ONLY existing game features for example and changes or fixes to them that are being considered or worked on. Keep anything new reserved for how that want to handle that aspect of things. A WDA that focused on fixing things already in game that can be fixed would still be very very useful and I am sure they would get a lot of feedback on those "broken" items. In fact a LOT of the WDA was usually focused on items of just this very nature. This is where the $$ issue comes in. SOMEONE has to spend the time making the determination on what fits which pile and does not. That takes time and that time is $$ for someone. With limited manpower available, you have to make choices at times over what does and what does not get done. As a task leader and manager in RL, I know this happens all the time. I would LOVE to do everything and make the customer happy, but I cannot do or promise to do what would take 3 times the manpower I am funded for.

Elsbet
06-10-2008, 11:32 AM
$$ and lead time issues are coming to bear here I suspect.

To get stuff into "mainstream" mags like PCGamer et al, those articles need to be getting crafted now for later summer release. They have a multimonth leadtime on publications like that. To create a buzz for something happening in the Fall, you want to hit the newstands with something this summer, and follow it up with more PR leading up to the actual release. When you work the dates backwards, that means you need to be ready to go late spring with the details of the fall release, and if you are going out on a more public limb with something like that you REALLY need to hit those dates in the fall or everything goes to the ^&#37;&^^&%.




I suspect money has more to do with it. Like recently securing $40 million in funding. (http://www.turbine.com/news/5-press/62-turbine-secures-40-million-in-financing.html)

sigtrent
06-10-2008, 11:49 AM
I suspect money has more to do with it. Like recently securing $40 million in funding. (http://www.turbine.com/news/5-press/62-turbine-secures-40-million-in-financing.html)

I rather doubt that is slated for DDO specificaly in any way.

What bugs me a bit is that the WDA had game specific information about bug fixes, specific enhancement adjustments, new feats and so on. No one is going to put that stuff in a press release or exclusive game article. "News flash! DDO adjusts Search skill to +2 bonus per rank of enhancement purchaced!"

If its disruptive to thier development process somehow (hard to imagine) then I could see it. But becasue they need exlusive info for news articles... I don't see how those things can't co-exist.

RTN
06-10-2008, 12:51 PM
We've seen a recent jump in developers posting info on future bug fixes, content and things not going into Mod 8. We always see a small bump right after a new mod drops and devs have more time, but hopefully this will continue as part of the new policy. Who knows, maybe the ddo wiki can collect these just like Ziggy did in that long defunct thread of his.

Yaga_Nub
06-10-2008, 01:29 PM
The right time as in, "At the moment the game has had its two most anemic in quests Modules in a row?"

Sorry to sound rude, but this seems like the worse time to me.

That wasn't rude. I'll give you rude .................................................. ...................................

Twerpp
06-10-2008, 01:52 PM
They should replace those ratty old dusty smooshed up boxes in gamestores that look like they have been stepped on and put in the bargain bin with something nicer. Something shiny and platinum with the whole kit and kaboodle of silly free **** like a map and a D&D mini, and a kickass in-game exclusive item!

Josh
06-10-2008, 06:56 PM
It does at Turbine. Our PR and marketing folks are all gamers. :)
-Meghan

That, I find very, very hard to believe for reasons I've stated before.

salmag
06-10-2008, 07:57 PM
It does at Turbine. Our PR and marketing folks are all gamers. :)

You know that we're pretty cautious about telling our communities things until we're sure they're going to happen. Earlier this year Marketroid told you we'd be stepping up marketing and PR for DDO. That time is rapidly approaching. The WDAs weren't pulled lightly; this just happened to be the right time.

-Meghan

Which game? It doesn't sound like they play DDO. Sounds, and seems, like they play Xbox and PS3. Kind of looks like it too the way monks were implemented. When is the game going into development for the Wii? Just curious:cool:

Based on OUR new WDA, (tentonhammer, MMORPG, etc.) the "rumors" have this game moving to consoles

Aodh
06-10-2008, 07:59 PM
Why do I get the feeling that turbine is acting like a genie/devil and granting our wishes, but only in a way that will thoroughly p1$$ us off?

ArkoHighStar
06-10-2008, 08:05 PM
Ironically enough the whole rumor about DDO' going to consoles had websites calling Turbine PR asking for comment and this is what Kotaku got, see if you can spot the item that actually sounds very interesting


When we heard this morning that Turbine was planning to put part of its $40 million Time Warner-led investment to work doing console MMOs, we wondered if a console version of Dungeons & Dragons Online or Lord of the Rings Online could be in the works.

Alas, when we spoke to Turbine's communications director Adam Mersky today, he confirmed Turbine is "actively developing a title for console," but declined to specify.

"We've hired over 60 people since the beginning of the year," said Mersky, and 40 more job postings for the project are currently waiting to be filled. "The people that invested in us, Time Warner... one of the media giants, getting into the MMO fold, and that's obviously a big deal," he said. "They also have a huge distribution network... that may bear fruit for us."

And that investment, Mersky said, makes Turbine "well funded for a good time into the future," and he told Kotaku a bit more about what the company plans to do with that money.

GGB capital, another of the recent investors, has a "huge footprint in China," Mersky said. Right now, LotRO is ramping up for a launch in China this year or early next, while its closed beta just finished in Korea. Asia is a huge market for MMOs in general, Mersky said, and "that's a big thing for Turbine."

"DDO is doing well too," Mersky said, "It's over two years old which is something to be said for a lot of MMOs." The marketing push we've been hearing about as a possible indicator that DDO may move to consoles partially hinges on new content updates planned for the remainder of the year, he said, both revamps of old content and new content, including new starter experiences.

"It's a good time for that franchise," said Mersky. "Atari has turned itself around, brought in a lot of talented people recently, and we're in active dialog with them to do good things for DDO."

DDO is also set to get Direct X 10 by the summer, Mersky said.

As for LotRO, the team is ramping up for the Mines of Moria expansion. Another book update in July is coming to close out Volume 1 and pave the way for the new expansion, and Mersky said Turbine will publish a full expansion every year for the game.

For how long? Turbine has the license to make MMOs based on the Tolkien universe until 2012, with options to extend until 2017.

Part of the investment dollars are going into new technology - Mersky points out that new players coming into the game late currently have to tuck in to catch up on a long patching process, but he alluded to proprietary tech in the works that may remove the sort of snafus that often occur in client-based computing.

Turbine has its eye on open worlds and user-generated content, too: "We're working on tech to let people... enable self evolving worlds," he said. "The idea is, we have these immersive, beautiful 3D worlds and they're designed by professional artists - but how can we let people create content in those... without 'suburban sprawl,' allow them to create gameplay environments." Nothing immediate to announce on that front, said Mersky, but that's a direction Turbine is very interested in going, too.


Looks like Warber has made th big investment which means I doubt they are pushing DDO, probably Harry Potter or DC universe MMO, but there was one comment about DDO that struck me a s add if we are not getting any content till our next big mod which would probaly be in November why are we getting an update this summer for DX10?????:eek:

salmag
06-10-2008, 08:13 PM
Ironically enough the whole rumor about DDO' going to consoles had websites calling Turbine PR asking for comment and this is what Kotaku got, see if you can spot the item that actually sounds very interesting



Looks like Warber has made th big investment which means I doubt they are pushing DDO, probably Harry Potter or DC universe MMO, but there was one comment about DDO that struck me a s add if we are not getting any content till our next big mod which would probaly be in November why are we getting an update this summer for DX10?????:eek:

INTERESTING...

Borror0
06-10-2008, 09:48 PM
Looks like Warber has made th big investment which means I doubt they are pushing DDO, probably Harry Potter or DC universe MMO, but there was one comment about DDO that struck me a s add if we are not getting any content till our next big mod which would probaly be in November why are we getting an update this summer for DX10?????:eek:

Interesting. You know, no matter how much we know that DDO was a marketing failure and all, DDO is still the best MMO to convert into console because of the gameplay. But like you said, Warber's investment reduces greatly the chances of DDO being the one picked.

As for the DX10, maybe we're getting a 7.1 in August?

ArkoHighStar
06-10-2008, 09:52 PM
Interesting. You know, no matter how much we know that DDO was a marketing failure and all, DDO is still the best MMO to convert into console because of the gameplay. But like you said, Warber's investment reduces greatly the chances of DDO being the one picked.

As for the DX10, maybe we're getting a 7.1 in August?

it sounds like it which would explain turbine giving very little high level content with this mod

Borror0
06-10-2008, 09:56 PM
it sounds like iot which would explain turbine giving very little high level content with this mod

Let's hope they got a few high level quests in store, and that they are the quality of the raids we have had in this one. :)

IgorUnchained
06-10-2008, 10:09 PM
This is my first MMORPG. I had never even heard of the game until a friend of mine disappeared and was found a few weeks later with glazed over eyes, drool stains on his shirt, and a capped toon. That is how I found out about the game and havent seen a single advertisement for it since.

I am a long time member of The Elder Scrolls forums. Before the release of Oblivion, they did the same thing with their weekly information. Pretty soon forum members were having to go to other sites for information about the game. People on the forum griped and felt cheated..etc. That said, all of those people DID go to those other sites to check out the content. People who WERENT the hardcore fan base learned about the game on the site as well. The traffic from all of those people made the other site money and made them ask Bethesda to do other Oblivion related interviews/content in the future.

How did this all turn out? You may not know who Bethesda is, but you have probably heard of Oblivion ( you might even know someone who has played it). The word got out because Bethesda "played the game" and made a win/win/win situation. Other sites got more visitors, Bethesda sold alot of games, and the fans of the game still got content and, when the game thrived, the knowledge that alot more would be sure to follow (and it did).

Most of us have been disappointed in the amount of advertising that has gone into this game.....and this is the best way of doing something about it.
If it doesnt work, it will be even worse than it was (with the upset customers in the dark), but it is sure to help and we all can do our part by participating in the process and not just complaining about the lack of information in THIS site.

As stated before, I am from a console background. That said, I have only been to Tentonhammer once. Guess why?!?!
That works both ways.

Josh
06-10-2008, 10:59 PM
Which game? It doesn't sound like they play DDO. Sounds, and seems, like they play Xbox and PS3. Kind of looks like it too the way monks were implemented. When is the game going into development for the Wii? Just curious:cool:

Based on OUR new WDA, (tentonhammer, MMORPG, etc.) the "rumors" have this game moving to consoles


Lol, if they did they would know what a POS the new raids are. Then again, when you are playing characters in god mode, stocked with all the gear you want, and on the lan I guess your gaming experience is different eh? I can't imagine that anyone who has played that and experienced the unbelieveable lag or the bs teleporting of devils and said "that's a great gaming experience". Thus, I conclude that they haven't played it under conditions that customers do.

Josh
06-10-2008, 11:02 PM
This is my first MMORPG. I had never even heard of the game until a friend of mine disappeared and was found a few weeks later with glazed over eyes, drool stains on his shirt, and a capped toon. That is how I found out about the game and havent seen a single advertisement for it since.

I am a long time member of The Elder Scrolls forums. Before the release of Oblivion, they did the same thing with their weekly information. Pretty soon forum members were having to go to other sites for information about the game. People on the forum griped and felt cheated..etc. That said, all of those people DID go to those other sites to check out the content. People who WERENT the hardcore fan base learned about the game on the site as well. The traffic from all of those people made the other site money and made them ask Bethesda to do other Oblivion related interviews/content in the future.

How did this all turn out? You may not know who Bethesda is, but you have probably heard of Oblivion ( you might even know someone who has played it). The word got out because Bethesda "played the game" and made a win/win/win situation. Other sites got more visitors, Bethesda sold alot of games, and the fans of the game still got content and, when the game thrived, the knowledge that alot more would be sure to follow (and it did).

Most of us have been disappointed in the amount of advertising that has gone into this game.....and this is the best way of doing something about it.
If it doesnt work, it will be even worse than it was (with the upset customers in the dark), but it is sure to help and we all can do our part by participating in the process and not just complaining about the lack of information in THIS site.

As stated before, I am from a console background. That said, I have only been to Tentonhammer once. Guess why?!?!
That works both ways.

Morrowind was a great game. I still remember making potions of jumping that let me jump like 100 miles at a time with a 100 alchemey skill. Bethesda "get's it". Turbine clearly doesn't, and I doubt they ever will. Sad really, as this game COULD be as fun of a experience as TES is / was.

Grimdiegn
06-11-2008, 06:45 AM
More marketing does not mean a spot in Ten Ton Hammer and another spot on some random gamer site somewhere else. Unfortunately this is what Turbine interprets as marketing. They need to do some main stream marketing (which has NEVERNEVERNEVERNEVERNEVER been done for this game).

Using the word never is just wrong in this case. I remember seeing a national TV ad for DDO before the launch. I think it was on the Scifi channel but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong...

Riddikulus
06-11-2008, 08:37 AM
Using the word never is just wrong in this case. I remember seeing a national TV ad for DDO before the launch. I think it was on the Scifi channel but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong...
And since then? Nada. The occasional gamer mag ad is all i've ever seen.

Like I said in the other thread WoW has had some nice memorable TV commercials... DDO could use a good spot or two.

Granted WoW has a significant amount of revenue to put to this kind of use, but DDO isn't even doing a proportional amount of advertising... more like zero.

Toyota: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1OMQiFS4DQ
Office Space: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V1QB89CCz4
Shatner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Fs7IpNVCo
Mr T: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLlxObAD_Y

and even Mini-Me :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FET09MYis_g
and Coke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDfzdZqGoRU

Milolyen
06-11-2008, 09:07 AM
Using the word never is just wrong in this case. I remember seeing a national TV ad for DDO before the launch. I think it was on the Scifi channel but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong...

This has been discussed many times on the forums. Atari, and not Turbine, is responsible for the advertising or the lack of. Which is why they are giveing the exclusives to say "hey look at what we are doing with DDO" instead of running actual advertisements.

Then also who is to say that the article(s) that are going to be written up wont be written up with specifics. Would not be to tough to write up a longer interesting article that would involve some of those specifics you think they would not include. They could include some of the complaints and concerns people have shown on the forums then show the changes that are being made/where made to address those concerns.

As I said in another thread, I enjoyed reading the WDA's also. I am also sure that the decision to take them out was not taken lightly. If they do stick with their quarterly update plan then there will be another mod released some time between June 30th and September 28th (atleast that is third quarter at my work) and if they are going to be trying to get a big exclusive article out before its release then the time would be now. Since they are odviously not going to change their minds about this we will just have to wait and see how it turns out and hope for the best.

Milolyen

I say odviously not going to change their minds because if there was any chance that they where going to then they would not have posted that they where going to do away with them.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-11-2008, 09:37 AM
So now that they are, many folks...

Well, you've read the posts.

:rolleyes:

Marketting requires the announcement of major things as exclusives....something they actually have been doing for almost a year now. Mod drop dates, overview of contents, the monk, etc, have all been through media outlets.

Media outlets could care less about the change to pali enchacement II or about the bug fixes being undertaken.

They decided they don't want to communicate with us, it isn't worth their time and they want to save the work.

Then they pointed at the unrelated shiney thing in the corner and people like you scurried over and went "ooo shiney good"

Talcyndl
06-11-2008, 09:51 AM
They decided they don't want to communicate with us, it isn't worth their time and they want to save the work.


It's not us. They just don't like you.

;)

RTN
06-11-2008, 10:43 AM
Media outlets could care less about the change to pali enchacement II or about the bug fixes being undertaken.


For all we know, some media outlet did complain.

Your point makes logical sense, but unfortunately the real world rarely works on logic. I agree that the little changes that often fill the WDA should mean nothing to a media outlet, but some media outlet might have decided it does mean something, as ridiculous as that may seem to us.