PDA

View Full Version : The Weekly Development Activities



Pages : [1] 2

Patience
06-09-2008, 11:53 AM
Hi everyone! We wanted to take a few moments to talk about the Weekly Dev Activities, and let you all know that we’ve made the decision to cease publishing them. We understand that this won’t be a popular decision with many of you, but after careful evaluation, this is a change that ultimately benefits DDO and you, our players. It’s a bit ironic that it’s good changes for DDO that led to this decision!

We know you’ll have questions about why the WDA is going away, so we’ve tried to put together a Q&A to try to answer them.

Q: Why is the WDA going away?
A: There are two critical factors that went into the decision, so let’s talk about them a little:

The first is that following the completion of Module 7, the DDO development team has been working full-tilt on several things that are still under tight wraps. This means we’re unable to include them in the WDA – making it next to useless.

More importantly, though, is that DDO will be getting more and more focus from Turbine’s marketing and PR teams over the coming months. This renewed focus has already begun, in fact, and you may have noticed an increase in the publicity for DDO. This is a good thing! The pickle is that as time goes on, we will be getting even more press coverage for the game; this means that we’ll need to offer exclusives to the media about things that are coming up next for DDO – things that as a result cannot be included in the WDA.

Q: What will I do without the WDA?
A: We’ll still be bringing you other activities in the coming weeks. The developers and community team will still be here on the forums answering questions, gathering feedback, and bringing updates about the game. More contests will be run, the Tell the Community Team thread will still be ongoing, the Bug Hunter lodge is still open for business, and we’ll be bringing even more information and articles to the Compendium! Keep your eyes on the News and Announcements, as well as the Dev Tracker, for updates and information! You can also visit DDO.com to keep abreast on the latest DDO happenings.

Q. Without the WDA, how will I know what’s coming next for DDO?
A: You’ll still find out what’s going on for DDO, but it won’t be quite as real-time as it was (and to be honest, there was lots the WDA left out too). Besides the aforementioned press coverage, which will include articles and interviews, we’ll be bringing you dev diaries and overviews of what’s coming up. The development and community teams will still be on the forums, answering questions when they can. The WDA might be going away, but the teams’ dedication to you is as strong as ever.

Q: What are these top secret things you mentioned?
A: They are top secret. In time we will bring you more information, but currently we’re not at liberty to discuss them. If we told you, we’d have to… well, you know.

Q: But I liked the WDA! Why won’t there be another WDA?
A: We know that this will be an unpopular change for some of you, and bringing information to you is very important to us. This is not the end of communication between our players and the team; this is the beginning of new ways of information dissemination that promotes the game and helps to grow it even further. This is a new and exciting time in DDO’s life, with lots more to come!

Yaga_Nub
06-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Wow, I didn't see this coming.

EDIT: If I take my post down asking about this week's WDA can we get them back? :)

Missing_Minds
06-09-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't suppose that the weekly WDA is gone Turbine could fill in the gap with Monthly live events?

Arcanoid
06-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Long time user, first time whiner....

One of my highlights of each monday is reading these and seeing where the game is going.

Heading back to secret and obscure releases of information is hardly an exciting step forward.

Keep your secret stuff secret, ignore those who say "why aren't you doing more, theres nothing good coming" but keep us up to date on the little stuff. Its still good to read about the small bug fixes and ability changes etc...

respectfully, this sucks and bad decision.

Arcanoid

GreyRogue
06-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Hmm. I don't like this very much, but I guess I see your point about the exclusives and so on. I'll probably be ok as long as there is still some communication about what sorts of things are coming up. For example, letting devs leak something like "quivers are coming in Mod 7." I don't think Ten Ton Hammer cares about that as an exclusive, but it is something that a lot of players were able to look forward to.

ShadowFox1978
06-09-2008, 11:58 AM
First!! And if it helps the game grow and stay viable, it is a good change.

It's guild housing/bank isn't it :D


Doh, well I was first when I started my response

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 12:01 PM
How bout a State of the Game address then?

This, Most Likely, Is a terrible decision. We've been promised better dev communication int he past and after a few days it seems to dry up. We get PR People on the Site that DO their best to dodge our questions.....

Codogs and Silthes Threads are so huge at this point many things get missed. PM's go unanswered.....

-sigh-

Sad day for DDO indeed.

(I hope I'm Proven wrong though)

Freeman
06-09-2008, 12:01 PM
How about a weekly update on the status of bug fixes that will be coming up? I don't think you're going to be giving any media exclusives on those. Without something like that(And the "Known Issues" are rarely updated and don't cover many of the bugs), we're going to end up with bug posts scattered all around and no idea if they are being addressed.

Patience
06-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Hmm. I don't like this very much, but I guess I see your point about the exclusives and so on. I'll probably be ok as long as there is still some communication about what sorts of things are coming up. For example, letting devs leak something like "quivers are coming in Mod 7." I don't think Ten Ton Hammer cares about that as an exclusive, but it is something that a lot of players were able to look forward to.

Yup, things like that will still show up here and there. Things we can answer, we will. This is NOT a wall of silence coming down - we just have to change the way and rate at which information is released!

-Meghan

Coldin
06-09-2008, 12:06 PM
I'm sad about this change. It was nice having a weekly source of news about what was coming next in terms of bug fixes and additions. I only hope that this means production of DDO is ramping up, instead of winding down.

:(

creithne
06-09-2008, 12:07 PM
Will we be seeing a state of the game address any time soon? This was supposed to have been delivered a while ago, if memory serves me correctly...so in light of the demise of WDAs, will we get thrown a bone of the State of the Game Address we were supposed to be getting?

Tolero
06-09-2008, 12:08 PM
How about a weekly update on the status of bug fixes that will be coming up? I don't think you're going to be giving any media exclusives on those. Without something like that(And the "Known Issues" are rarely updated and don't cover many of the bugs), we're going to end up with bug posts scattered all around and no idea if they are being addressed.

Silthe and the rest of us are still prowling around. The hubs of bugdome will be the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues lists (Don't worry, we're moving all the Mod 7 knowns over to the current sticky, and will continue to update the list as usual). Silthe is still actively reading/investigating things brought to the Bug Hunger Lodge.

Qzipoun
06-09-2008, 12:08 PM
This is my honest and sincere opinion about this:

Ridiculous.

I will leave it at that before certain people start putting their "Turbine Shields" up.

Vyctor
06-09-2008, 12:09 PM
This probably has more to do with people complaining about changes to the WDA from week to week and taking them as concrete promises. Now without information given, there is no concrete promises for people to whine about.

dameron
06-09-2008, 12:09 PM
4th edition revamp is coming then, huh?

L-A-M-E!

Hendrik
06-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Sorry to see them go myself, enjoyed reading them as much as the next person. However, I understand the reasons 'why' they will be no more and I have to say THANK YOU Patience for taking the time to explain it to me/us.

Thank you.

Looking forward to the future of DDO!

Alcides
06-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Yup, things like that will still show up here and there. Things we can answer, we will. This is NOT a wall of silence coming down - we just have to change the way and rate at which information is released!

I think monthly updates are probably more relevant than the weekly ones, since short term development milestones are generally measured in 1-3 month blocks. Would this be a safe assumption to the new information dissemination model that Turbine is cooking up?

Angelus_dead
06-09-2008, 12:13 PM
The hubs of bugdome will be the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues lists (Don't worry, we're moving all the Mod 7 knowns over to the current sticky, and will continue to update the list as usual).
That's unfortunate, because the "usual" updates of the bug list are not close to adequate.

I mean, the Known Issues still says Module 6 is the current release... not only was it not updated for mod7, it wasn't even updated for update 6.1. And of course I could probably think of unlisted bugs at the rate of 1/minute and keep it up for an hour.

PS. It's also a great help to have a "Non-Bug List": features that frequently surprise players into thinking something is wrong, but are actually as intended. That list combined with updated known bugs can improve the quality of your incoming bug reports.

Hafeal
06-09-2008, 12:14 PM
I understand the idea. Perhaps there is new technology and/ or gameplay that you do not want leaked.

Then again, if we (Turbine as well as players) could think of it, so can other companies. Given the number of other companies out there, I find it *difficult* to believe that DDO will be implementing something no one has thought of or that other MMOs themselves aren't trying or pursuing.

The impression I am left with is not good. All that said, I love the game and I have no choice but to trust Turbine's decision and that we will all benefit from the forthcoming lack of information. If it means faster development time great. It will lead to rampant rumors and educated guesses on the tidbits that will get out.

I guess, at the end of the day, Turbine relied on Risia and players to test their new ideas. Turbine relied on these forums to get player feedback on gameplay. And although they do not follow all of the players opinions, it is clear from existing content that these forums and the WDA feedback have had an impact.

What now will fill that void? :confused:

Vhlad
06-09-2008, 12:15 PM
DDO II !
DDO expansion!
DDO sexy mod with boob and hip slider at character creation!
DDO epic level super pack! levels 20-30 woot woot ><
DDO 4th ed.

Heh. I may be playing AoC now but d&d will always have a place in my heart, along with DDO. And eventually I'll be back, so get going! Hop to it! Moosh! etc etc, gogogogo.

Dexxaan
06-09-2008, 12:15 PM
C´mon guys.

I enjoyed the WDA´s as much as all, the news and expectations created were awesome every monday (well...almsot every monday) :eek:

BUT, I´fully understand the need for just being able to do your thing and not have so many "I can´t believe they are not doing this"; the "Why are the <fill in class here> getting so much love?" and the "I´m so disappointed I´m gonna play AoC" threads.


Just make sure you guys keep working towards a game developed with input from players, ask us questions and pay attention to those threads that make some sense and arent just whining. (Like "Why can´t the berzerker-shield-biting Barbarian stop, evaluate his health and decide to chug a Health Pot" :rolleyes:)

So back on subject.... where´s this weeks WDA!!!?? :D

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 12:16 PM
Ya know, this would of been a whole lot easier to swallow if it was released in tandem with SOMETHING showing us you were sincere about keeping us and the general MMO public Informed.

We rearely see anything come out of Toleros weekly Q/A Thread and quite frankly, the questions lately havent been all that interesting to many folks anyway.

Codogs thread is so Full right now THat tons of questions get missed or unanswered.

Bug Hunter thread is also so huge that many things get missed and never confirmed/Clarified.

jkm
06-09-2008, 12:18 PM
the bug hunter lodge has been closed for the spring. the last turbine response to it was 3-21...

smatt
06-09-2008, 12:18 PM
Well, let's be honest here.... I understand the idea that perhpas holding back news of upcoming game changes might be a good idea to some extent. But all this really means is the player base as a whole won't here about many of the new changes and therefore won't be able to prepare for them the same as the "special" players who get all the inside from turbine employees and reps... Such as PRIVATE forwarded reported post PM's sent to "Customer Service Reps" on this board ect. That strangely enough end up cut and pasted and forwarded to said reported posters.

Now, you can't convince me that these same players also receive inside information about game play issues and then take advantage prior to their release or becoming common knowledge within the player base. This is too be expected, welcome to the world, no biggee...... But at least the WDA gave the player base as a whole a chance to see some of the planned changes and adjust accordingly. I completely agree that Turbine needs to work to get better press for DDO, but I'm not all that sure, that this is the way to go about it.

bigal4458
06-09-2008, 12:19 PM
If this turns out to be just like the whole "We're no longer doing monthly updates, but rather bigger, better quarterly updates" fiasco...I feel that a lot of community will be disappointed.

Just some tips to the Turbine clan....Don't alienate the community....allow us an opportunity to give feedback on decisions and updates....and please update us on bug progress, etc.

Elsiah
06-09-2008, 12:21 PM
typically i try to be a positive poster, but this is cause for a bit of complaining. I mean, i understand that some things need to be under wraps for you PR, that i get. But not posting the state of fixes, state of bug repairs, etc. is silly. sure, keep the big shiny new things secret. give us the mundane items that mean nothing to anyone outside the game. I thrive on the WDA, i like knowing what is and isn't going into the next mod, even if it's just minutae. Please come up with some new weekly or bi-weekly post letting us know the state of the non-secret stuff.

Ron
06-09-2008, 12:22 PM
We understand that this won’t be a popular decision with many of you

Hmm. You can count me in as a subset of this population. I HATE this decision.

Keeping the character planner up to date just got a lot harder. I used the WDA to keep on top of the upcoming changes. Too bad for me, I know. Everyone can pretty much expect there will now be a much longer delay between when a Mod comes out and when the planner update gets released. Ce la vie.

thatguy
06-09-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't like this at all, not one bit. I also don't like the explanation that was given as to why it was taken away. I appreciate the fact that DDO is getting more exposure these days but people like to see what is around the corner for DDO. I am not looking forward to spotty information here and there about what might or might not be coming up in future mods. I like the weekly dev activities, lots of people do. You really should reconsider. At least, put it too a poll of community. Let them tell you what they think!

MTG
06-09-2008, 12:23 PM
I understand it but man I'm going to miss reading it first thing at work. All I ask is this please stay away from 4th edition i got the core books last nite and I aready wish I hadn't.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 12:25 PM
To be honest... it's felt like that 'wall of silence' has been crashing down for 3 months now. The end of the WDA kinda cements it. It's already incredibly difficult to get any actual dev feedback with certain things in the game. And things that are well-known by the players are all too often seemingly unknown to the dev base.

Take, for example, the recent potion change. When lesser restore pots were first changed, they were broken with regards to rage. It took 3 months for them to be fixed to work with barb rage, but were still broken with madstone rage. When the new potions were announced, there were multiple threads about how they were going to work, whether they would work with madstone rage, concerns, comments, etc. Nothing was ever talked about.

Then the new potions come out, broken like the lesser restore pots were broken 7 months ago, and still no dev has ever come out of the woodwork to even say if they're intended to no longer work with madstone rage!

Things like this are going to have to improve in the future, especially in light of the WDA. Communication with anyone in development has plummeted. Slithe and Codog's threads that you mentioned have been pretty sparse for any communication for weeks (which is to be known because they're individual projects)... and this is the answer for an even further lack of communication.

You guys need to do better than what you were doing 2 weeks ago... and you took a step even further back.

Milolyen
06-09-2008, 12:26 PM
I also enjoyed reading the WDA's and such but it suprises me how many people are upset by this. It seems to me that the vast majority of the people complain about the lack of advertising. It has been discussed many times how Atari is the one responsible for advertising and not turbine and that Atari has no interest in doing said advertising. So for Turbine to cut out the WDA's and move to giveing exclusives to be released in articles is a good move. They are getting the advertising that the forum goers and player base has been asking for. SOOO

RIP WDA's - You died for a good cause.

Milolyen

Ghoste
06-09-2008, 12:27 PM
First of all, good to hear that some marketing is beginning to happen.

Secondly, glad to hear you're secretly working full tilt on druids! :D

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 12:27 PM
DDO expansion!
DDO 4th ed.
I'm fairly sure one of these two reasons will ultimately be what is going on "under wraps"... some of the recent changes/nerfs we have seem to be aligning with 4th ed.

binnsr
06-09-2008, 12:28 PM
http://miriella.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/tai_shan.jpg

one less reason to visit these forums :(

Mellkor
06-09-2008, 12:29 PM
In my opinion, this is a huge mistake. Please reconsider this asinine decision. The WDA was always one of the things that I looked forward to. It gives us a chance, as players, to put some input into game development. It seems to me that many great ideas came from player input stemming from the WDA. Please let me know who decided this, I would like to write a formal letter to the person who did.

-JR

sigtrent
06-09-2008, 12:32 PM
I don't like it at all.

See... one of the real problems wiht this game's Dev-Fan communication and in most MMOs is there is no central point for good, solid, reliable, straight from the source information where you can go and difinitively find the answer.

Instead you get rumors and third hand information passed down some windy chain that you can't personaly verify.

WDA was one of the only good sources of information on what was happening in the game and what to look out for. At least you realize that it was going to be unpopular, but that hardly explains why you would do it other than you are short handed. Is it really so difficult to compile a list of bug fixes planned or new features added? If you must have mystery features just list a teaser. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

jkm
06-09-2008, 12:33 PM
does everything have to have such nice marketing spin on it? can't you just come out and say that 2 things happened in mod 7 that you just didn't like?

1. WDA's set a baseline for delivery that doesn't mesh with your new exit criteria for production? lets take assassinate for example - would way of the assassin 2 even be announced if it had such a feature breaking bug associated with it? this is one of the frustrating things for those of us who use bug reports - we never get to see the triaged priority of different bugs. how hard would it be to implement bugzilla and hide bugs that you would consider exploits?

2. publishing the particulars of new abilities during the scrum cycle allowed the (paladin in particular) playerbase to run the numbers and prove that they needed an upgrade. this of course was totally infeasible because you were already in development (and what dev loves crs?).

the WDAs were inherently reactive and in software, being reactive generates more aggro than being proactive. my question is whether you think going into a shell is going to help this aggro or would it be better to move into a proactive mindset?

Mirta
06-09-2008, 12:35 PM
In your quest to obtain new players, please don't forget us older players. The masses are hungry for information and starved animals need to be fed. At least give us something like a Weekly Bug Report. Confirm new and old bugs, tell us which ones you're working on, and give us ETAs on the patch to fix them. It wouldn't really be spoilers as we know it's coming anyways, and it at least gives us some interaction to let us know you're still there.

alans240
06-09-2008, 12:35 PM
This is a very bad decision for Turbine.

You already are having a hard time keeping your player base interested in the game and now this dumb change. One of the best things you had going for you was the WDA. It kept players looking forward. You constantly saw posts in the WDA thread of people excited about the new changes coming. Now these people have nothing to get excited about. I guess now all we can do is complain about the lack of content again.:( At least before we could see new stuff on the horizon. Now we will have no clue what's coming. Good move Turbine!:rolleyes:

You told us we would be getting "More Communication" in the past, but clearly this mindset has left the building.

WeaselKing
06-09-2008, 12:36 PM
Silthe and the rest of us are still prowling around. The hubs of bugdome will be the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues lists (Don't worry, we're moving all the Mod 7 knowns over to the current sticky, and will continue to update the list as usual). Silthe is still actively reading/investigating things brought to the Bug Hunger Lodge.

But not Q, eh? Well we will miss you Quarion, I hope you have moved on to bigger and better things, though what could be bigger and better than DDO, I don't know. ;D

Oh yeah, and Monday mornings at work just got more depressing. :'(

WeaselKing
06-09-2008, 12:38 PM
First of all, good to hear that some marketing is beginning to happen.

Secondly, glad to hear you're secretly working full tilt on druids! :D

Yup and I heard that only warforged will get to be druids and they will add darkleaf (?) and unarmored body feats.


Oh and the chance to choose the Warforged Scout body type.

Coldin
06-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Oh yeah, and Monday mornings at work just got more depressing. :'(

QFT

thatguy
06-09-2008, 12:40 PM
Turbine clearly did not appear to have the community in mind when this was decision was made. They never even asked us.

Dark_Helmet
06-09-2008, 12:40 PM
Hi everyone! We wanted to take a few moments to talk about the Weekly Dev Activities, and let you all know that we’ve made the decision to cease publishing them. We understand that this won’t be a popular decision with many of you, but after careful evaluation, this is a change that ultimately benefits DDO and you, our players. It’s a bit ironic that it’s good changes for DDO that led to this decision!

More importantly, though, is that DDO will be getting more and more focus from Turbine’s marketing and PR teams over the coming months. This renewed focus has already begun, in fact, and you may have noticed an increase in the publicity for DDO. This is a good thing! The pickle is that as time goes on, we will be getting even more press coverage for the game; this means that we’ll need to offer exclusives to the media about things that are coming up next for DDO – things that as a result cannot be included in the WDA.


Well, I know that providing "exclusives" will give you more marketing and reviews published, but the loss to existing customers will start a riot (people already were complaining that press releases were describing things that weren't acknowledged here). Completely new developments may be kept under wraps and tied to NDAs, but fixing existing issues should always be published.

I really think you need to have SOMETHING published weekly, so two suggestions:
1) List of Known Bugs updated each week just like the WDA. The existing thread is too hard to read, and we want a weekly summary of bugs acknowledged (e.g. Blade Barrier only doing damage once ever for a mob: not working as intended).
2) List of intended functions. Things reported as bugs that are not considered bugs (e.g. Firewall working as intended).

This will help on two fronts: The users will be happier to see acknowledgement of a problem and it would be worked on; Turbine will have less bug reports to sift through and threads that they have to monitor where users are fighting over how it should work.

More communication is better.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Silthe and the rest of us are still prowling around. The hubs of bugdome will be the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues lists (Don't worry, we're moving all the Mod 7 knowns over to the current sticky, and will continue to update the list as usual). Silthe is still actively reading/investigating things brought to the Bug Hunger Lodge.

Are devs planning on posting more often without leaving 2-3 months in between posts?

You are eventually gonna have dinosaurs... on this dinosaur tour?

MageLL
06-09-2008, 12:43 PM
I only have one question. Which in turn will answer a ton of other questions I have.

Does this in any way shape or form have to do with the recent news that Turbin is planning expansion of DDO to the Asian markets?

Dimicron
06-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Personally, I'm not interested in reading about things third-hand. The only thing I rely on the media for is reviews to buy new games. With Turbine now only talking to the media... I have to ask: Is there a subtle hint there?

The WDA was a very important bit of communication that we had from the game devs... now you're taking that away too? We have little enough communication with them as it is!

Bad decision here. You guys are making it difficult to stay happy with this game, remember you guys are almost doing the equivalent of steering a big ship. Kindly dodge the icebergs please. (The following is best if read in Alan Rickman's voice from "Galaxy Quest")Believe it or not, the object is not to hit every last one ;)

Ghoste
06-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Yup and I heard that only warforged will get to be druids and they will add darkleaf (?) and unarmored body feats.


Oh and the chance to choose the Warforged Scout body type.
Darkleaf? You mean ironwood body?

Scout is a race, not a feat.

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 12:45 PM
If we can't have new features etc, at least let us have the bugs that have made it through QA, so that we know they are being addressed, or are you trying to market bug fixes as well:D

BurnerD
06-09-2008, 12:46 PM
I had a long post written, but decided it was a waste of bits and bytes.

This is a step backward with your CURRENT player base. I hope most of us are still around for the top secret stuff....

Lorien_the_First_One
06-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Uh huh...looks like Turbine lack of communication is dropping to an all time low...

99% of the WDA is of use to players, but irrelivent to outside magazines. I mean do you really thing they care about a reduction in the AP cost for Uberfighterenhancement II? Nice excuse, but I don't buy it at all. This is simply a decision to reduce communications with the player community for your own reasons and nothing to do with outside advertising.

And if you really do think the WDA threatens outside advertising...you need a new advertising dept cause they don't have a clue...

thatguy
06-09-2008, 12:48 PM
Personally, I'm not interested in reading about things third-hand. The only thing I rely on the media for is reviews to buy new games. With Turbine now only talking to the media... I have to ask: Is there a subtle hint there?

The WDA was a very important bit of communication that we had from the game devs... now you're taking that away too? We have little enough communication with them as it is!

Bad decision here. You guys are making it difficult to stay happy with this game, remember you guys are almost doing the equivalent of steering a big ship. Kindly dodge the icebergs please. Believe it or not, the object is not to hit every last one ;)

Did you say Icebergs?

http://www.wastingmytime.net/images/DSC01539.JPG

thatguy
06-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Uh huh...looks like Turbine lack of communication is dropping to an all time low...

99% of the WDA is of use to players, but irrelivent to outside magazines. I mean do you really thing they care about a reduction in the AP cost for Uberfighterenhancement II? Nice excuse, but I don't buy it at all. This is simply a decision to reduce communications with the player community for your own reasons and nothing to do with outside advertising.

And if you really do think the WDA threatens outside advertising...you need a new advertising dept cause they don't have a clue...


I agree, BRING BACK THE WDA!

Gennerik
06-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Excuse me, Patience, but is it at least possible to get a sticky post that has released information that gets updated/reviewed weekly (even though it may not have anything new each week) to at least help players keep track of information that has been released to the public without having to search the entire Internet in order to find it. So many things get said on the forums that even without the WDA, it would still be nice to see a single location that has all the information that has been released to the public.

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Uh huh...looks like Turbine lack of communication is dropping to an all time low...

99&#37; of the WDA is of use to players, but irrelivent to outside magazines. I mean do you really thing they care about a reduction in the AP cost for Uberfighterenhancement II? Nice excuse, but I don't buy it at all. This is simply a decision to reduce communications with the player community for your own reasons and nothing to do with outside advertising.

And if you really do think the WDA threatens outside advertising...you need a new advertising dept cause they don't have a clue...
Translation of Patience's statement:

Quarion {was canned / reassigned | retired | quit } 3 weeks ago and I don't want to try to figure out how to keep track of all this nitty gritty stuff.

;)

Dimicron
06-09-2008, 12:55 PM
Did you say Icebergs?

http://www.wastingmytime.net/images/DSC01539.JPG

Shiny!

Ok, they should dodge the big floaty icy thingies in the ocean. Not well crafted modules from history :)

Zippo79
06-09-2008, 12:58 PM
Q: But I liked the WDA! Why won’t there be another WDA?
A: We know that this will be an unpopular change for some of you, and bringing information to you is very important to us. This is not the end of communication between our players and the team; this is the beginning of new ways of information dissemination that promotes the game and helps to grow it even further. This is a new and exciting time in DDO’s life, with lots more to come!

I did? :)

Pellegro
06-09-2008, 12:58 PM
This is unfortunate, as increased Turbine to player feedback has constantly and consistently been cited as a concern of the playerbase.

Only time will tell whether or not the substitute avenues for information dissemination prove to be adequate to meet the playerbase's needs.

Here's to hoping that it will work out for the best ....

Hokiewa
06-09-2008, 12:59 PM
lmao yet another reason my sub is not going to be renewed......We asked for MORE communication, not less. The actual truth is DDO is shutting down. No more mods, no more nothing til everyone leaves.

Again, what a ****ing joke!

Yaga_Nub
06-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Did you say Icebergs?

http://www.wastingmytime.net/images/DSC01539.JPG

Gamma World!

There should be a MMO based off of Gamma World. :)

Largo_Kyber
06-09-2008, 01:02 PM
The WDA was one of the best vehicles for Turbine to keep my subsciption active.

Granted that I can't predict the future, but I'd be willing to bet that a lack of conssistant communication about future updates, etc will be the cause of my cancellation.


this is the beginning of new ways of information dissemination that promotes the game and helps to grow it even further.

Going by track record, I don't trust that new avenues of communication will be opened and when I tire of the 2 new raids, what will I have to look forward to? Secrecy?

You cancel your WDA's and I'll cancel my subsciption until the secrets are revealed. This is a good change for my wallet as you no longer have me on the hook.

Gratch
06-09-2008, 01:03 PM
Kind of sad to see Q go with no goodbye.

Never got our promised State of the Game 2nd Anniversary address other than the Mod6 dribble's that came from other game sites.

I guess in a marketing sense it is good for Turbine to push all news via sites that new players may read to convince them to trial or subscribe to DDO. Otoh, it doesn't help keep your "robust current following" and it breaks the feedback loop about a large number of non-news-worthy issues until they are released.

Plus, the WDA spawns a lot of other feedback. When we see the devs are working on class X and maybe see some of their ideas in the WDA... huge feedback threads get started regarding those classes and where players feel they need help. It helps focus the normal set of "class/race X needs help" into the how's and why's and references from PnP that sometimes make it into the game.

Oh well... screw asking questions about Mod 7 at the IRC conversation on Wed. Better to ask a lot of "what's coming" questions since this will be one of our few chances for Mod 8+ info.

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 01:03 PM
Gamma World!

There should be a MMO based off of Gamma World. :)

that I would join, I want a needle gun acupuncture for everyone

thatguy
06-09-2008, 01:05 PM
Shiny!

Ok, they should dodge the big floaty icy thingies in the ocean. Not well crafted modules from history :)

OK thats better. LoL :)

WestiesMA
06-09-2008, 01:09 PM
Hi everyone! We wanted to take a few moments to talk about the Weekly Dev Activities, and let you all know that we’ve made the decision to cease publishing them.


I think this is a big mistake that will cause you to lose customers. For example, if someone really wants guild housing and there is no communications that guild housing is on the way, that person may assume it is not on the radar screen and leave the game.


[/I]We understand that this won’t be a popular decision with many of you, but after careful evaluation, this is a change that ultimately benefits DDO and you, our players. It’s a bit ironic that it’s good changes for DDO that led to this decision!

I am not sure I agree with you. Honest, open communication with your customers is never a bad thing, and I had alway thought that Turbine was above average at that. This may change my mind


We know you’ll have questions about why the WDA is going away, so we’ve tried to put together a Q&A to try to answer them.


Ok I write these for a living so I know what is coming.


More importantly, though, is that DDO will be getting more and more focus from Turbine’s marketing and PR teams over the coming months. This renewed focus has already begun, in fact, and you may have noticed an increase in the publicity for DDO.


This is GREAT news! I have not noticed any increase in publicity though - can you please point out some examples? What ads/events can I look for?

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 01:09 PM
Kind of sad to see Q go with no goodbye.

Never got our promised State of the Game 2nd Anniversary address other than the Mod6 dribble's that came from other game sites.

I guess in a marketing sense it is good for Turbine to push all news via sites that new players may read to convince them to trial or subscribe to DDO. Otoh, it doesn't help keep your "robust current following" and it breaks the feedback loop about a large number of non-news-worthy issues until they are released.

Plus, the WDA spawns a lot of other feedback. When we see the devs are working on class X and maybe see some of their ideas in the WDA... huge feedback threads get started regarding those classes and where players feel they need help. It helps focus the normal set of "class/race X needs help" into the how's and why's and references from PnP that sometimes make it into the game.

Oh well... screw asking questions about Mod 7 at the IRC conversation on Wed. Better to ask a lot of "what's coming" questions since this will be one of our few chances for Mod 8+ info.


it looks like the only feedback they will be getting is from Mournlands users. I suggest you listen to the DDOCast from this weekend, it gives you a pretty good idea on how they choose people, the one that disturbed me the most, was that they work on referrals from other mournlands players, who it sounds like can recommend people from their own guild, it seems this keeps it a very tight closed community with multiple players from the same guild getting way early access to raid content. In my opinion there should never be more than one person from any guild on Mournlands to keep the access spread out accross guilds and servers.

Ki_Draken_Magus
06-09-2008, 01:13 PM
This has all happened before, and will happen again.

RTN
06-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Will you still be giving out First Look Release Notes and Final Release Notes? I ask because while 3rd party sites giving the information is nice, getting the details in a list that you write means fewer errors/misunderstandings and more detailed information.

I hope this means a lot more PR, which leads to more people, which leads to more money, which leads to more people working on the project, which leads to more content being added and fixed.

DME543
06-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Uh huh...looks like Turbine lack of communication is dropping to an all time low...

99% of the WDA is of use to players, but irrelivent to outside magazines. I mean do you really thing they care about a reduction in the AP cost for Uberfighterenhancement II? Nice excuse, but I don't buy it at all. This is simply a decision to reduce communications with the player community for your own reasons and nothing to do with outside advertising.

And if you really do think the WDA threatens outside advertising...you need a new advertising dept cause they don't have a clue...

QFTI think the devs were tired of all the challenging questions the player base brought to the table each week the WDA was released. I also believe they have washed their hands of the WDA by saying "We know this will not be a popular decision..." I also looked forward to the WDA because I could make decisions about my characters build based on the new skills/feats/enhancements in the upcoming mod.I still love the game tho...

stockwizard5
06-09-2008, 01:17 PM
Here is the major problem as I see it ... the player base has two consistent complaints; we want more content (big C) and we don't like issues (big I) that effect quest/class/race/gear/magic/etc playability.

More Content speaks for itself but I think we can recognize that every mod has had its share of Issues. The WDA was the primary/only vehicle (not the exploit server IMO) that mitigated even more Issues from getting through to live. The analysis/feedback vis-a-vie playability of WDA items - and the many changes they drove were enormously beneficial to DDO and the community. Information through third party (with the endless errors, miss-statements, and confusion) non-interactive sources will not provide sufficent detail for us to continue analyzing development activities.

Elistor
06-09-2008, 01:18 PM
I just love being a mushroom. And since I don't read any gaming mags or sites I'll end up getting the info several weeks later(and no providing a link to the article won't help because I still won't read it). Oh well hopefully some player will take up the devs slack and post a weekly thread on whats been announced.

Turial
06-09-2008, 01:18 PM
So how often are the third parties going to be publishing the articles on DDO?

If its at the rate its been then I dont see this as an appropriate way to disseminate information to players both old and new. Currently there are about 3 articles per development cycle (4ish months these days).

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 01:22 PM
I just love being a mushroom. And since I don't read any gaming mags or sites I'll end up getting the info several weeks later(and no providing a link to the article won't help because I still won't read it). Oh well hopefully some player will take up the devs slack and post a weekly thread on whats been announced.

I have a feeling we will be getting the community WDA very soon with each point referenced to an article, hey if Turbine won' do it we can, its not like there isn't precedent with the character planner,DDOwiki, crafting tools, puzzle solver etc

Drider
06-09-2008, 01:28 PM
Hmm if people in other MMO's can go without an WDA and just get most of their inforamtion through advertising efforts, then I think those in DDO can handle it as well.

Even with the WDA posted every week.. there were still tons of "that's it?" posts and complaints about it anyway. We just have a very whiny playerbase unfortunately.

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 01:32 PM
Hmm if people in other MMO's can go without an WDA and just get most of their inforamtion through advertising efforts, then I think those in DDO can handle it as well.

Even with the WDA posted every week.. there were still tons of "that's it?" posts and complaints about it anyway. We just have a very whiny playerbase unfortunately.

its all going to depend on what Turbine does, if they replace the WDA with an adequate number if articles etc, like LOTRO has, then most people will slowly fall into line and accept our new reality. But the problem is that due to the fact that we have had very little outside reportingon DDO for so long, and much of what has been published has been poorly done by writers who have never seen the game before, the WDA was our only source for info

EazyWeazy
06-09-2008, 01:33 PM
I don't like it one bit. :mad:

doodooman
06-09-2008, 01:34 PM
Gee i wonder why theres no more WDAs, could it be the fact every week one goes out or not they get bashed for 10+ pages?

Drider
06-09-2008, 01:38 PM
Gee i wonder why theres no more WDAs, could it be the fact every week one goes out or not they get bashed for 10+ pages?

lol ding ding. That and it does seem they are trying to get more articles out there. If they tell us whats going on all the time, then we have no reason to go to these other websites to look for the information. Which is what those websites don not want. They don't want to give out second hand info, they want to provide information that will draw us to their sites.

They have been getting better, mod 6 and 7 had some decent articles for it.. although there just needs to be more that come out now in between the mods instead of at the last couple weeks before it goes live.

Patience
06-09-2008, 01:41 PM
Will you still be giving out First Look Release Notes and Final Release Notes?

Yes, we'll still continue doing full release notes and patch notes for releases!

Ransacked
06-09-2008, 01:42 PM
/not signed

Azarath
06-09-2008, 01:46 PM
After having spent the past weekend splitting my time between being frustrated with this game and reading the new 4th edition books I have one thing to say:

If the reason were to POSSIBLY be a revamp to 4th edition, then I'm all for it!

Reasons:

1- More hit points from 1st level and more hitpoints gained per level!
2- Spell do more initial damage. I mean a magic missile that does 2d4 + Int Mod, if you maxed Intelligence that's a potential of 12 points of damage. And since it's a touch AC roll now, you can crit with it!
3- The healing surges give EVERY class SOME measure of self-healing that isn't potion or item based.
4- Base ability scores for character creation would have to start at 10 since the new rules don't allow negative abilities when using point buy. Might mean they drop the number of creation points, but if you're starting with 10's, getting plus 2 to 2 abilities (the only race that only gets 1 ability bumped is Human), and getting the 22 points suggested in the 4e Player's Handbook...you can still kick major butt with those scores.
5- Saves and AC use the higher of 2 set scores, so for once you can create a character with 3 REALLY good scores and not shoot yourself for the AC or save you might have wanted but didn't get.
6- Skills are more genaralized into roader categories, which in my opinion works better for online gaming.
7- Feats provide better bonuses and are readily retrained once outgrown, not to mention you get more of them.
8- Ability boosts still happen from levelling, but the new system is better, in my opinion. At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th levels you get to pick 2 abilities to raise by 1 point instead of just 1. In addition, at 11th and 21st levels you get to raise ALL ability scores by 1 point. Now I know this point doesn't matter so much right now, seeing as the game hasn't even reached 20th level capacity yet, but it would give you a total of 8 points to spend on abilities by 18th level plus the universal plus 1 at 11th level for a total of 14 points. Currently, not counting enhancements or tomes, our number is 4 points by 18th level. Let me think on which I like better?

I'm by no means saying that 3.5 is obsolete. I AM saying that 4th edition is more video game driven, easier to convert over without much lost in translation, and would be an exciting change for DDO. Of course, they'd have to get the rules for the Barbarian, Bard, Monk and Sorcerer out in 4th edition to convert this game anytime soon. They'd also have to add the Warlock and Warlord to this game, as well as revamp the races we can play and add the Half-Elves, Eladrin, Dragonborn and Tieflings. So for those of you saying that it sounds like a 4e revamp, look at the work load I've just listed, look at the work load they've put out over the past 2 years, and then rest easy because at they're current rate we wouldn't see a 4e revamp until 2010 at the earliest. :)

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Yes, we'll still continue doing full release notes and patch notes for releases!

Really? Wheres todays? Evidentally Blade Barrier was Fixed in todays "Maintinance" update...... WHat else?

Geriant
06-09-2008, 01:57 PM
Disappointed to say the least, the WDA was the one thread you could count on getting decent feedback from the devs about things. While Codog and Slithe's threads are nice, mostly they seem to be about informing the two of them about issues and not necessarily about fixes or changes to the game. Tolero's thread is nice as well, it gives us a chance to give some feedback (granted, I've never answered it as every time I do the message board logs me out before I'm done) but the players get no feedback from what is submitted or even indications of what changes are made based upon the feedback. There is just nothing like the WDA for giving us an idea of where things are going or even simply what areas the devs are working on.

Sure, it's great the game is seeing more marketing and I understand the need for exclusives as bargaining chips but there needs to be a sincere effort to still keep us informed in some fashion. In a game where character build choices are so important and some are unable to be changed once taken, we need to have some idea of the direction the game is taking even if it is just a vague idea that something is being worked on. Even if it is just a bullet point summary like the WDA of the information you have given to the media sources after you have given it to them.

msheaf1
06-09-2008, 02:03 PM
After having spent the past weekend splitting my time between being frustrated with this game and reading the new 4th edition books I have one thing to say:

If the reason were to POSSIBLY be a revamp to 4th edition, then I'm all for it!

Reasons:

1- More hit points from 1st level and more hitpoints gained per level!
2- Spell do more initial damage. I mean a magic missile that does 2d4 + Int Mod, if you maxed Intelligence that's a potential of 12 points of damage. And since it's a touch AC roll now, you can crit with it!
3- The healing surges give EVERY class SOME measure of self-healing that isn't potion or item based.
4- Base ability scores for character creation would have to start at 10 since the new rules don't allow negative abilities when using point buy. Might mean they drop the number of creation points, but if you're starting with 10's, getting plus 2 to 2 abilities (the only race that only gets 1 ability bumped is Human), and getting the 22 points suggested in the 4e Player's Handbook...you can still kick major butt with those scores.
5- Saves and AC use the higher of 2 set scores, so for once you can create a character with 3 REALLY good scores and not shoot yourself for the AC or save you might have wanted but didn't get.
6- Skills are more genaralized into roader categories, which in my opinion works better for online gaming.
7- Feats provide better bonuses and are readily retrained once outgrown, not to mention you get more of them.
8- Ability boosts still happen from levelling, but the new system is better, in my opinion. At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th levels you get to pick 2 abilities to raise by 1 point instead of just 1. In addition, at 11th and 21st levels you get to raise ALL ability scores by 1 point. Now I know this point doesn't matter so much right now, seeing as the game hasn't even reached 20th level capacity yet, but it would give you a total of 8 points to spend on abilities by 18th level plus the universal plus 1 at 11th level for a total of 14 points. Currently, not counting enhancements or tomes, our number is 4 points by 18th level. Let me think on which I like better?

I'm by no means saying that 3.5 is obsolete. I AM saying that 4th edition is more video game driven, easier to convert over without much lost in translation, and would be an exciting change for DDO. Of course, they'd have to get the rules for the Barbarian, Bard, Monk and Sorcerer out in 4th edition to convert this game anytime soon. They'd also have to add the Warlock and Warlord to this game, as well as revamp the races we can play and add the Half-Elves, Eladrin, Dragonborn and Tieflings. So for those of you saying that it sounds like a 4e revamp, look at the work load I've just listed, look at the work load they've put out over the past 2 years, and then rest easy because at they're current rate we wouldn't see a 4e revamp until 2010 at the earliest. :)


You second sentance of the last paragraph sums it all up. 4.0 is a MMORPG not D&D. While it maybe a decent game it's not what I have played for over 25 years and I know my group has no desire to touch it. So more negative ability scores, two points to stats ever 4 levels more hit points etc. Yep a MMORPG for sure with more than a touch of munchin mixed in my oponion. :D Plus all the stuff they are leaving out just so they can sell us more books later (monks, bard, gnomes etc). Hopefully you enjoy it but to me it is a brand new game.

Mockduck
06-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Wow, this totally came out of the blue.

I really depended on the WDA's to be the "official" source of information about the upcoming mods to the game. This will make it much more difficult to get out accurate, timely information on a weekly basis. But I guess I'll deal with it.

And yeah - someone posted that it's not likely that the other gaming sites will focus on the more specific things like action point changes and minor items that mean a lot to us DDO players. I totally agree.

Oh well, what can ya do?

jmonty
06-09-2008, 02:10 PM
meh.

they weren't posted on the main page, so usually i didn't even see them until a few days later anyways.

something secret eh? DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!11!1!

:p

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 02:11 PM
Kind of sad to see Q go with no goodbye.
He did say goodbye just not verbosely... look at his sig from his last post, or see http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=6739

Borror0
06-09-2008, 02:13 PM
Yup, things like that will still show up here and there. Things we can answer, we will. This is NOT a wall of silence coming down - we just have to change the way and rate at which information is released!

You know what? You got it wrong.

You've got answer faster! Not slower. You know, like taking up to after the monk being live to tell us we wouldn't have an extra slot? That was too late. You know, telling us oyu would add new Green Steel item but no deconstruction? Well that was too late too. There are far too many unanswered questions on the forums, removing the WDAs is just making it worse. Heck, there are things that even I can answer... and I try to gather all the information about the game that I can find for the wiki!! I may n ot know it by heart, but I know where to find it... but there are tons of stuff unknown to me.

Besides, the WDAs were a way for the developers to take feedback from the playerbase. I remember a very interesting debate between Eladring and MT that lead to changes to the WDA's content before it going live. Let's just say it, the WDAs are more healthy for the game than you think it is. It helps players to look up to the next Module, makes the forums more active, gives us build ideas, etc.

Besides, there are changes that would make us Happy and that can't simply said in interviews.

Oh, and one last request, if you're going to let us know stuff about the game through interviews ccan you fire Kate Paiz and put someone there at both care abouts and knowns the game. Kate has done far too many errors in the past and will keep on doing that. Sorry to be rude to herm, but she clearly lacks the level of understanding of game mechanics to occupy the post she currently does. She keeps it too general, and as soon as she ventures in details... Eladrin has to post to correct her...

I'm trying to understand how it really hurts you to stop the WDAs. Want something unique for an interview? Well give it to them and delay it on the WDAs, but keep the WDAs. I fail to see how explaining that paladins will be getting the Bunny Hugger I PrE will be content for an interview. To me, interviews are about stuff that would have never been found in the WDAs... Besides, you guys seem to have increased your staff, Django and Tharagrim just to name those two, why remove the WDAs now?

-Borror0

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 02:13 PM
lol ding ding. That and it does seem they are trying to get more articles out there. If they tell us whats going on all the time, then we have no reason to go to these other websites to look for the information. Which is what those websites don not want. They don't want to give out second hand info, they want to provide information that will draw us to their sites.

They have been getting better, mod 6 and 7 had some decent articles for it.. although there just needs to be more that come out now in between the mods instead of at the last couple weeks before it goes live.

mod 6 had great articles, mod 7 had less and more poorly written articles, where the writers kept getting confused between mod 7 and 8 or didn't even play the high level content just 3BC. Like I said if we get good accurate articles in a timely manner this will basically be a non issue, let us hope Turbine is up to the challenge

4elements
06-09-2008, 02:13 PM
I don't post much but this I have to comment on. I don't like this at all. One of my favorite posts to review each week and as someone else said 'One less reason to visit the forums'. Really bad idea. I know this isn't fact but it feels like you're telling me if I want info about the game I play here I'll have to get it from some other marketing/magazine site.

Dungnmaster001
06-09-2008, 02:15 PM
After having spent the past weekend splitting my time between being frustrated with this game and reading the new 4th edition books I have one thing to say:

If the reason were to POSSIBLY be a revamp to 4th edition, then I'm all for it!

Reasons:

1- More hit points from 1st level and more hitpoints gained per level!
2- Spell do more initial damage. I mean a magic missile that does 2d4 + Int Mod, if you maxed Intelligence that's a potential of 12 points of damage. And since it's a touch AC roll now, you can crit with it!
3- The healing surges give EVERY class SOME measure of self-healing that isn't potion or item based.
4- Base ability scores for character creation would have to start at 10 since the new rules don't allow negative abilities when using point buy. Might mean they drop the number of creation points, but if you're starting with 10's, getting plus 2 to 2 abilities (the only race that only gets 1 ability bumped is Human), and getting the 22 points suggested in the 4e Player's Handbook...you can still kick major butt with those scores.
5- Saves and AC use the higher of 2 set scores, so for once you can create a character with 3 REALLY good scores and not shoot yourself for the AC or save you might have wanted but didn't get.
6- Skills are more genaralized into roader categories, which in my opinion works better for online gaming.
7- Feats provide better bonuses and are readily retrained once outgrown, not to mention you get more of them.
8- Ability boosts still happen from levelling, but the new system is better, in my opinion. At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th levels you get to pick 2 abilities to raise by 1 point instead of just 1. In addition, at 11th and 21st levels you get to raise ALL ability scores by 1 point. Now I know this point doesn't matter so much right now, seeing as the game hasn't even reached 20th level capacity yet, but it would give you a total of 8 points to spend on abilities by 18th level plus the universal plus 1 at 11th level for a total of 14 points. Currently, not counting enhancements or tomes, our number is 4 points by 18th level. Let me think on which I like better?

I'm by no means saying that 3.5 is obsolete. I AM saying that 4th edition is more video game driven, easier to convert over without much lost in translation, and would be an exciting change for DDO. Of course, they'd have to get the rules for the Barbarian, Bard, Monk and Sorcerer out in 4th edition to convert this game anytime soon. They'd also have to add the Warlock and Warlord to this game, as well as revamp the races we can play and add the Half-Elves, Eladrin, Dragonborn and Tieflings. So for those of you saying that it sounds like a 4e revamp, look at the work load I've just listed, look at the work load they've put out over the past 2 years, and then rest easy because at they're current rate we wouldn't see a 4e revamp until 2010 at the earliest. :)

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

I sincerely hope DDO never tries to incorporate any part of 4th edition.

Not because 4th edition sucks; I love it, especially now that I have seen the books and had a chance to read a bit of them. But because I don't believe it can be done half-way. The only way to convert to 4th edition would be a full re-make from scratch(I'm all for DDO 2 doing this, but leave it out of DDO 1 please). Some of the changes are nice in 4th edition but they are balanced IN 4th edition, not in 3.5. Adding the cool stuff from 4th edition on top of the 3.5 ruleset will break the game in my opinion. If there were anything Turbine could do that would make me quit this wonderful game...that would be it.

Also many players in DDO like 3.5 and hate 4th edition (can't fathom why, except that they are used to doing things one way and fear change, /shrug) Regaurdless of the reason though some people just don't like 4th edition and play DDO because it follows the ruleset they are familiar with and enjoy.

VonBek
06-09-2008, 02:25 PM
Oh well, what can ya do?

^^ Jerry better get more "exclusives"!!!.


Mod Seven reassured me that our wish lists, improvement threads, and general feedback mattered, and could influence Stormreach for the better. Somehow, it seems if you're not talking to us, you may not be listening, either. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but my anxiety has escalated.

maddmatt70
06-09-2008, 02:25 PM
After having spent the past weekend splitting my time between being frustrated with this game and reading the new 4th edition books I have one thing to say:

If the reason were to POSSIBLY be a revamp to 4th edition, then I'm all for it!

Reasons:

1- More hit points from 1st level and more hitpoints gained per level!
2- Spell do more initial damage. I mean a magic missile that does 2d4 + Int Mod, if you maxed Intelligence that's a potential of 12 points of damage. And since it's a touch AC roll now, you can crit with it!
3- The healing surges give EVERY class SOME measure of self-healing that isn't potion or item based.
4- Base ability scores for character creation would have to start at 10 since the new rules don't allow negative abilities when using point buy. Might mean they drop the number of creation points, but if you're starting with 10's, getting plus 2 to 2 abilities (the only race that only gets 1 ability bumped is Human), and getting the 22 points suggested in the 4e Player's Handbook...you can still kick major butt with those scores.
5- Saves and AC use the higher of 2 set scores, so for once you can create a character with 3 REALLY good scores and not shoot yourself for the AC or save you might have wanted but didn't get.
6- Skills are more genaralized into roader categories, which in my opinion works better for online gaming.
7- Feats provide better bonuses and are readily retrained once outgrown, not to mention you get more of them.
8- Ability boosts still happen from levelling, but the new system is better, in my opinion. At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th levels you get to pick 2 abilities to raise by 1 point instead of just 1. In addition, at 11th and 21st levels you get to raise ALL ability scores by 1 point. Now I know this point doesn't matter so much right now, seeing as the game hasn't even reached 20th level capacity yet, but it would give you a total of 8 points to spend on abilities by 18th level plus the universal plus 1 at 11th level for a total of 14 points. Currently, not counting enhancements or tomes, our number is 4 points by 18th level. Let me think on which I like better?

I'm by no means saying that 3.5 is obsolete. I AM saying that 4th edition is more video game driven, easier to convert over without much lost in translation, and would be an exciting change for DDO. Of course, they'd have to get the rules for the Barbarian, Bard, Monk and Sorcerer out in 4th edition to convert this game anytime soon. They'd also have to add the Warlock and Warlord to this game, as well as revamp the races we can play and add the Half-Elves, Eladrin, Dragonborn and Tieflings. So for those of you saying that it sounds like a 4e revamp, look at the work load I've just listed, look at the work load they've put out over the past 2 years, and then rest easy because at they're current rate we wouldn't see a 4e revamp until 2010 at the earliest. :)

I played D&D 4th addition this past Saturday and I can honestly say it is D&D for dummies. They have dummed down the game to make it more appealing to the WOW crowd. Really take a look at the characters and their special attacks, there is really no difference between the classes - they are all basically the same. Even a wizard (close to the same hit points at end game as a fighter and much more similar attacks) and a fighter are alot more similar then the current game. The game and tactics in and out of battle are alot more basic - you can only do so much and all the characters are so similar that it is pretty boring. WOC is banking on the fact that it can attract the WOW crowd otherwise I predict that 4.0 will be a total flop because 4.0 will not appeal to the core 3.5/D&D crowd.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 02:25 PM
Here's my question.

For the last 3 months, the amount of communication has been unacceptable.

What are we doing to change that? Clearly eliminating the only weekly update we have isn't part of the solution. Maybe it has to be done, and that's fine. But what are our CSRs (and devs) going to do to increase the amount of transparency?

Coldin
06-09-2008, 02:29 PM
Wow, this totally came out of the blue.

I really depended on the WDA's to be the "official" source of information about the upcoming mods to the game. This will make it much more difficult to get out accurate, timely information on a weekly basis. But I guess I'll deal with it.

And yeah - someone posted that it's not likely that the other gaming sites will focus on the more specific things like action point changes and minor items that mean a lot to us DDO players. I totally agree.

Oh well, what can ya do?

I hope that Turbine gives you news to talk about on your show. I love DDOcast, and listen to every week to catch up on what's happening in the game.

GeneralDiomedes
06-09-2008, 02:32 PM
I am asking myself why I actually like the WDA. I think I like it because I'm a junkie that likes to be fed new information. Does it matter in the end whether I know that the braided hairstyle is coming out 2 months prior to release or 1 week prior to release? Probably not.

I have no problem looking up information on third party sites. Some of the more recent articles have actually been pretty informative. I think the only downside to press articles is that they don't list any of the intricate changes that many spent countless hours of analysis on. But again, does this matter enough to keep it in?

So, does the WDA actually serve a purpose? I can think of one instance (the death penalty) where a major change was discussed with the community prior, and they actually created a separate thread for that, so the WDA was not even needed. As long as this practise is kept up for major player affecting changes, then I can't think of an actual reason to keep it around.

As for communication, I believe communication will continue to happen. Just take a look at the dev tracker or listen to DDOCast if you think they don't communicate (you DID listen to this week's interview right?). Let's hope that continues.

maddmatt70
06-09-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't know how you all feel, but I got a much more doom feeling with this no wda announcement. My take on this change is there is not enough development occurring in ddo to warrant weekly development updates so instead they will be going to monthly press releases to announce upcoming changes. This actually makes sense from a practical standpoint, but from a fan of ddo standpoint is sad.

Theboz
06-09-2008, 02:36 PM
He did say goodbye just not verbosely... look at his sig from his last post, or see http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=6739


Q's sig says it all



7.10
So long, and thanks for everything!



So he was either fired or quit.

I looked forward to Mondays to see WDA's now I have nothing to look foward too :(

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 02:38 PM
As for communication, I believe communication will continue to happen. Just take a look at the dev tracker or listen to DDOCast if you think they don't communicate (you DID listen to this week's interview right?). Let's hope that continues.

You have no problem with their level of communication? What about the lack of character slots and the complete lack of telling anyone about it? WHen asked, Kate even sidestepped the question.

GeneralDiomedes
06-09-2008, 02:39 PM
You have no problem with their level of communication? What about the lack of character slots and the complete lack of telling anyone about it? WHen asked, Kate even sidestepped the question.

When they have a real answer, they usually give it. You can tell just as much from their lack of communication.

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 02:40 PM
Q's sig says it all


So he was either fired or quit.

I looked forward to Mondays to see WDA's now I have nothing to look foward too :(
Quit apparently, he went to join HSinclair and Spork over at Cryptic.
Now "Associate Community Coordinator at Cryptic Studios".

Gum
06-09-2008, 02:41 PM
I'll miss it, but as long as the devs are committed to keeping us informed as much as their situation will let them, I'm cool with it. Now how bout some more pally love in the near future. Pllleeaassee? lol Seriously, the newest pally additions are a step in the right direction. Hope they continue. Thanks, Gum.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 02:41 PM
When they have a real answer, they usually give it. You can tell just as much from their lack of communication.

And they didn't... as it was asked pretty much daily up until the release of Mod 7 and there was not a single answer.

Unless they simply didn't decide until 15 minutes before...

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 02:46 PM
And they didn't... as it was asked pretty much daily up until the release of Mod 7 and there was not a single answer.

Unless they simply didn't decide until 15 minutes before...
That is just par for the course; we didn't get an answer to if they were fixing evasion until a day or two before it was released and that was asked repeatedly in every imaginable way possible.

EightyFour
06-09-2008, 02:49 PM
I don't really care about the WDA myself, I mean I don't understand why it was weekly anyway. I think it would be better if it was monthly, or quarterly would be best in my mind. However getting rid of it all together I don't think is a very good idea. Because as we know, not all news reports are 100% accurate. And if something gets promised in a news report and Turbine doesn't deliver, there are going to be a lot of mad people jumping around.

Also I've never seen a team not release anything at all. It's just most of the time, the released information is released a week before or the day of the launch.

VonBek
06-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Oh, and one last request, if you're going to let us know stuff about the game through interviews ccan you fire Kate Paiz and put someone there at both care abouts and knowns the game. Kate has done far too many errors in the past and will keep on doing that. Sorry to be rude to herm, but she clearly lacks the level of understanding of game mechanics to occupy the post she currently does. She keeps it too general, and as soon as she ventures in details... Eladrin has to post to correct her...
-Borror0

Sorry dude - too harsh. You voice a valid criticism. I'd hope she drags a dev or CSR along to provide detailed answers. She took the laptop on the road, put herself on camera and on the line. When marketing for growth comes into play, you want the producer talking. Her job was pushing progress and proselytizing. She took care of that.

Firing her? No. Don't think so.

tihocan
06-09-2008, 02:52 PM
Silthe and the rest of us are still prowling around. The hubs of bugdome will be the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues lists (Don't worry, we're moving all the Mod 7 knowns over to the current sticky, and will continue to update the list as usual). Silthe is still actively reading/investigating things brought to the Bug Hunger Lodge.
I really hope some effort is done to improve these areas then, because unfortunately, the Bug Hunter Lodge and the Known Issues list are not updated regularly enough to be reliable sources of information. Interaction with devs is rather scarce, and the WDAs provided a great way to learn what was being worked on. Since you read the forums you probably know that there are many questions asked by people for which the answer was a simply "just look into the WDAs". Now it's going to suck to tell people "hmm I think I heard PC Gamer had an exclusive sneak-peek into this feature you are asking about, go buy it in stores".

Overall I'm rather disappointed to see the WDAs go away, but I'm hoping this will be balanced by an increase in dev communication on forums. If not, then bleh :(

EspyLacopa
06-09-2008, 02:52 PM
After having spent the past weekend splitting my time between being frustrated with this game and reading the new 4th edition books I have one thing to say:

If the reason were to POSSIBLY be a revamp to 4th edition, then I'm all for it!

Reasons:

1- More hit points from 1st level and more hitpoints gained per level!
Already have this: +20 HP at Level 1 remember?

2- Spell do more initial damage. I mean a magic missile that does 2d4 + Int Mod, if you maxed Intelligence that's a potential of 12 points of damage. And since it's a touch AC roll now, you can crit with it!
Again, already have this. Enhancements! Also, Magic Missile in 4e is an attack roll vs Reflex Defense, not AC.

3- The healing surges give EVERY class SOME measure of self-healing that isn't potion or item based.
And in return, you only have so much healing each day due to limited number of healing surges/day. That'll go over well, when players can only get 10 healing spells each rest, eh?

4- Base ability scores for character creation would have to start at 10 since the new rules don't allow negative abilities when using point buy. Might mean they drop the number of creation points, but if you're starting with 10's, getting plus 2 to 2 abilities (the only race that only gets 1 ability bumped is Human), and getting the 22 points suggested in the 4e Player's Handbook...you can still kick major butt with those scores.
Yes they do. In 4e, the starting values when using Point buy are 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. Note the 8.

5- Saves and AC use the higher of 2 set scores, so for once you can create a character with 3 REALLY good scores and not shoot yourself for the AC or save you might have wanted but didn't get.
Yup, I'll buy this. Though. . .then there's no point in having that Force of Personality Feat.

6- Skills are more genaralized into roader categories, which in my opinion works better for online gaming.
Possibly. But that would also require redoing the entire skill system, not just mashing current skills together, since there are no more ranks nor skill points.

7- Feats provide better bonuses and are readily retrained once outgrown, not to mention you get more of them.
And in return, no classes get bonus feats. None.

8- Ability boosts still happen from levelling, but the new system is better, in my opinion. At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th levels you get to pick 2 abilities to raise by 1 point instead of just 1. In addition, at 11th and 21st levels you get to raise ALL ability scores by 1 point. Now I know this point doesn't matter so much right now, seeing as the game hasn't even reached 20th level capacity yet, but it would give you a total of 8 points to spend on abilities by 18th level plus the universal plus 1 at 11th level for a total of 14 points. Currently, not counting enhancements or tomes, our number is 4 points by 18th level. Let me think on which I like better?
All this really means is the numbers are larger. At least. . .they do at first. Until you look at the magic items and note the lack of +stat items. Suddenly having +20 spread out among your stats as you level isn't any higher than +5 spread out combined with +6 and +4 items, especially in DDO where we easily have 3+ such items by level 16.

Comments in Red. There is enough changed in 4e vs 3.5 that they'd likely just as well make a new game. . .and even then they'd have to change things in the translation.

As for the D&D for Dummies? Yea. . .not so much. It's like chess. Easy to learn. . .but once you do, you can do some really nasty stuff if you use your brain.

Mockduck
06-09-2008, 02:53 PM
I hope that Turbine gives you news to talk about on your show. I love DDOcast, and listen to every week to catch up on what's happening in the game.

Honestly, I think this basically means more work for me. In the past I've been able to use the dev tracker and WDA to kind of get a sense of what was new in the past week. Now, I'm going to have to keep a constant list of things whenever I happen to come across them. Basically (and hopefully) things should pretty much even out in the end, but it's going to take more work to keep everything organized. It'll also be more difficult to know what has been "confirmed" and what's being considered, ya know? If it was in the WDA it pretty much meant that it was a go. Now, with having that information spread across multiple gaming sites and stuff, it'll be more difficult to keep track of. But I will persist and succeed!

Josh
06-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Oh, and one last request, if you're going to let us know stuff about the game through interviews ccan you fire Kate Paiz and put someone there at both care abouts and knowns the game. Kate has done far too many errors in the past and will keep on doing that. Sorry to be rude to herm, but she clearly lacks the level of understanding of game mechanics to occupy the post she currently does. She keeps it too general, and as soon as she ventures in details... Eladrin has to post to correct her...-Borror0

Mobility is DPS! Isn't that what she said?

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 03:07 PM
Patience, i hope you are not referring to articles like this where Turbine's CEO talks a lot about LOTRO and their 5 year plan, but says absolutely nothing about DDO and its future, in reference to all the funding Turbine has recently received

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/1980

Aslo in watching the Comic Con video I see Craig Alexander the VP for all dev talk endlessly about LOTRO and how proud he is of it and say very little about DDO other than to say heres Kate to talk about DDO. We need more than marketing we need the executives of Turbine to either support this product or just pull the plug if they don't intend to.

edit 2 and if they switch it to 4th edition I will be on to other things

Yuhjn
06-09-2008, 03:08 PM
I dont believe their reasons for dropping the WDA. We're being decieved.

Personally I suspect that they are doing some changes that not going to be popular at all with the current fan base, based on pressure from WOC.

There is no reason whatsoever to update DDO to 4th edition except that WOC thinks it will help them sell more books. So WOC pressures Turbine to update DDO to 4th edition so they can get some carry over in publicity and advertising, which WOC hopes will sell more books.

If Turbine comes out and tells the existing player base that we'll be getting less new content, less new races, less new classes, less new mob types, less new items, less new game so that we can change our rules to 4th edition which will not make the game any better, but gives WOC an advertising edge, players will REVOLT.

So instead Turbine says "we're not gonig to tell you what we're up to, because blah blah blah". Well the real reason not to tell us is because they know how we'll react.

I'm just glad Gary G isnt alive to see 4th edition... he would cry.

Josh
06-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Patience, i hope you are not referring to articles like this where Turbine's CEO talks a lot about LOTRO and their 5 year plan, but says absolutely nothing about DDO and its future, in reference to all the funding Turbine has recently received

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/1980

Aslo in watching the Comic Con video I see Craig Alexander the VP for all dev talk endlessly about LOTRO and how proud he is of it and say very little about DDO other than to say heres Kate to talk about DDO. We need more than marketing we need the executives of Turbine to either support this product or just pull the plug if they don't intend to.

edit 2 and if they switch it to 4th edition I will be on to other things

******** has been disingenuous with it's customers since day one. Observe the whole AC2 fiasco. Observe it on these boards on a DAILY basis.

AxeM
06-09-2008, 03:17 PM
So basically instead of telling us what's going on you're forcing us to go to 3rd party sites and generate advertising revenue for them.

I understand how Turbine benefits from the increased exposure from these sites, I just feel a little more like a commodity then a customer though :(

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 03:17 PM
I dont believe their reasons for dropping the WDA. We're being decieved.

Personally I suspect that they are doing some changes that not going to be popular at all with the current fan base, based on pressure from WOC.
No I don't think so. The WDA looks like a lot of work to put together and keep up to date... with Quarion gone there's no one to do that every week. I'm sure Tolero has no interest in doing that tedious chore... she seems to like the community event kind of stuff much more. Patience has her hands full over at LOTRO so doesn't have the cycles to do it either. Cube & KK also have their hands full keeping our sorry lot in line. So who's left?

maddmatt70
06-09-2008, 03:19 PM
As for the D&D for Dummies? Yea. . .not so much. It's like chess. Easy to learn. . .but once you do, you can do some really nasty stuff if you use your brain.

Yeah there is some silly stuff for sure. I played a wizard and there was a wizard spell which knocked the mobs down and did cold damage if they failed a reflex check at first level (which was one of the few unique actions in comparison that were available in the rolled up mod by the way) and there was some powerful special attacks for all the classes but they were all very similiar for instance it seemed every class had some sort of cleave attack/attack hitting the targetted mob and the nearby mobs, they all seemed to have some sort of ramped up attack they could only use a limited number of times per day (1 or 1 per encounter), etc. Where is the variability in tactics with that sort of approach. The characters are extremely similar, the movement rules is simplified from 3.5, and many of the 3.5 combat options have been eliminated or extremely simplified what this all means is less tactics, less options and hence D&D for dummies.

Aesop
06-09-2008, 03:24 PM
My only real complaint is that there have been a number of WDAs that have lead to players voicing a strong enough opinion to make the Devs reconsider decisions that would have had desasterous effects on the game ... like that feat that made one style of combat vastly superior to all others...and superior 2weapon and 2handed fighting ... and a few others.

My other not so real complaint is that I really enjoyed the WDAs and always looked forward to them ... It was like making a christmas list as a kid... "oooo I want that"


yeah not thrilled I must say.

Glad to here about the increase in PR and Marketing though

Aesop

Aesop
06-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Comments in Red. There is enough changed in 4e vs 3.5 that they'd likely just as well make a new game. . .and even then they'd have to change things in the translation.

As for the D&D for Dummies? Yea. . .not so much. It's like chess. Easy to learn. . .but once you do, you can do some really nasty stuff if you use your brain.

They also completely trashed Multiclassing in 4th ed... that makes me an unhappy panda

Aesop

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 03:29 PM
No I don't think so. The WDA looks like a lot of work to put together and keep up to date... with Quarion gone there's no one to do that every week. I'm sure Tolero has no interest in doing that tedious chore... she seems to like the community event kind of stuff much more. Patience has her hands full over at LOTRO so doesn't have the cycles to do it either. Cube & KK also have their hands full keeping our sorry lot in line. So who's left?


Wha?

You really think "I have no intrest in doing that Tedious chore" would be a valid excuse if her boss told her it was now her responsiblity?

Wow.. I wanna work for you. Are you hiring?

Turbine: "Tolero, With Quarion leaving us I want you to take over the posting of the WDA's each week"

Tolero: " No Thanks, thats too much Tedious Work"

Turbine: " Oh, OK, thats fine then, I guess we'll just cancel the WDA Program then. We'll mail our your final check for ya."

dragnmoon
06-09-2008, 03:32 PM
Thıs is my first impression..


ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! What The!!!!!!!!... HOW COULD YOU!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111oneoneone......dotdo tdot


second impression same as above..

Third impression... not much different..

Then I thought...hey if they said they will release the info in other ways....maybe......Then I remembered the longer development time for bigger Mods Promise..*And I don't use the word promise often* and then well I realized I don't trust turbine to do what they say anymore.... *which is harsh coming from me* and I was rıght back to my fırst, second, and third impression..

Let's hope I am wrong... But I just can't see a third party givşng us the same details I loved in the WDA...

If we don't get the same details ın thıs new way.. then trust me I wıll be up in arms in the forums....

EspyLacopa
06-09-2008, 03:34 PM
Yeah there is some silly stuff for sure. I played a wizard and there was a wizard spell which knocked the mobs down and did cold damage if they failed a reflex check at first level (which was one of the few unique actions in comparison that were available in the rolled up mod by the way) and there was some powerful special attacks for all the classes but they were all very similiar for instance it seemed every class had some sort of cleave attack/attack hitting the targetted mob and the nearby mobs, they all seemed to have some sort of ramped up attack they could only use a limited number of times per day (1 or 1 per encounter), etc. Where is the variability in tactics with that sort of approach. The characters are extremely similar, the movement rules is simplified from 3.5, and many of the 3.5 combat options have been eliminated or extremely simplified what this all means is less tactics, less options and hence D&D for dummies.

Where's the variability in chess where each piece can only move 2 or 3 ways?

Cyr
06-09-2008, 03:37 PM
LOL.

This mod has not gotten alot of grumbling due to the monk craze, but when people sit back and do the new raids and realize how small they are that might change. Notice that the devs were very very careful not to be clear about the small amount of new content particularly at cap in the wda's leading up to Mod 7. My guess is there is more of the same in store for the future and they are having a hard time writing up a WDA that basically lists the fixes to things they broke with this mod (friends list, chat channels dying, pots, and shudder some of toggle feats/enhancments turning off upon log out) while having almost no new content. Untill I see otherwise that is my assumption due to the game's continual decline of new content/time. First it was no sub-modules, now this mod is the size of a sub-module...not good.

Dimicron
06-09-2008, 03:41 PM
Thıs is my first impression..


ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! What The!!!!!!!!... HOW COULD YOU!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111oneoneone......dotdo tdot


second impression same as above..

Third impression... not much different..

Then I thought...hey if they said they will release the info in other ways....maybe......Then I remembered the longer development time for bigger Mods Promise..*And I don't use the word promise often* and then well I realized I don't trust turbine to do what they say anymore.... *which is harsh coming from me* and I was rıght back to my fırst, second, and third impression..

Let's hope I am wrong... But I just can't see a third party givşng us the same details I loved in the WDA...

If we don't get the same details ın thıs new way.. then trust me I wıll be up in arms in the forums....


That part, right there, is the main issue. Turbine keeping more secrets from us will only make this worse.

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 03:41 PM
Where's the variability in chess where each piece can only move 2 or 3 ways?

Sorry, thats Checkers...

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/360563

Dirkan
06-09-2008, 03:44 PM
I think this is a horrible idea. It reeks of either laziness or a complete disregard for the players opinions. It really was the only reason I came to the forums regularly.

maddmatt70
06-09-2008, 03:48 PM
Sorry, thats Checkers...

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/360563

Good analogy it is almost like the difference between D&D 3.5 and D&D 4.0 is the difference between chess and checkers..

Pfamily
06-09-2008, 03:53 PM
So, the community development team is too busy to communicate with the community?
Hmmm...
Perhaps in hopes that the next community won't have expectations of being listened to where player issues arising within this pay-as-you-go service are raised?
Curiouser and curiouser...

Well...now that they don't have all those pesky customers to care for, here's hoping release notes for upcoming mods are more comprehensive and concise than have been those available from past releases.

Spisey
06-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Sweet! More promotions and advertising! Watch put argonites, looks like our server is about to be once again over-run with more newbs and crappy players. :rolleyes: Time to mebbe start looking for a new server home further down the alphabetical list of servers. :D

spyyder976
06-09-2008, 03:54 PM
If Turbine is converting DDO to 4th edition, it will be like Sony's suicidal move to change SWG to the NGE version, which instantly killed the game that was already dying quickly. I love 3rd Edition D&D, and if they totally change DDO and take that away from me, I'll just go back to playing NWN.

Ustice
06-09-2008, 03:55 PM
I doubt that this will be read by anyone that matters, and I also doubt that I will be saying anything new here, but what the heck.

I think that this is a terrible decision. I understand that you need to hold back content updates for publicity reasons, and that by doing so you will increase the number of new players that aren't reading the forums. I understand that right now, the next stuff is in a state of flux as well, and so you don't have a lot to announce that is nailed down yet. I understand how all of this sounds like a good idea, but it isn't, and here's why.

Mod 7 is out. Congrats, and thank you very much. In Mod 7 we saw the Monk, some mid level quests, a new explorer area, 2 raids, a town, and some crafting tweaks (and a cool little event that didn't last long, and was likely not as balanced as it should be. Really? Argo... last??). Here's the issue. Mod 7 was pushed back from it's planned date. It may have not been officially announced, but when you say quarterly updates that usually means 4 a year, or every 3 months, and that was our expectation. Mod 6 basically brought us a new raid and crafting (within that raid). Before that we had the raid that couldn't be beat (it has been since, but it is still buggy and requires too much luck).

What this all adds up to is very little in the way of new things to do at the high-level end in quite some time. For the last month of the game prior to Mod 7, I basically had stopped playing. Part of that is I had things going on in my life that made it less easy to play, but part was I was getting bored. When Mod 7 came out, I eagerly jumped on at the first opportunity, and you know what I wound up doing? More of the same stuff. Everyone was running the old raids to open the new. Great. I'm all for helping out, but this felt like a stretch for time by grinding (which I think that the latest mods have added too much of). Sure, I can make a monk, but I am more of a casual player, and find it tough to keep up with more than one character at a time. I have a bard that is fun to play, but he is stuck at level 10 (I think) and has been for months now.

One of the main reasons that kept me interested was the info that we get with the WDA. So while I wasn't able to get new features on a monthly basis like we used to, at least I could see what was coming, and imagine how great the game is going to be. It kept my interest in the game at a reasonably constant level (which really was helped by willphase's devtracker rss hack).

Now I am faced with a different future. Not only do I likely have a 4-5 month wait for new content (above the 5 month wait I already had, since very little of it I will be interacting with), but I don't get the dribbles of info on new features. Instead we have to scour the internet and press for info (yes you will have links, but we will have to read all of the articles for new info instead of having a central source). What you are doing with this is getting new members at the expense of the old.

You have been doing great with making the game better, and you are doing a much better job in the PR and marketing, but you are failing at keeping interest, and are likely to see a lot more churn in the future as a result as regular players start looking elsewhere for that rush of new. I don't see what is wrong with keeping the WDA, even if you don't put as much as you used to, or didn't update some of it until it's official announcement elsewhere. It still would allow you to offer exclusives while keeping community interest.

In short, I hope that you know what you are doing with this. For now, I will accept it, and hope that there is more to come. Just remember that there are a lot of new games that are on the horizon and some offer many of experiences that make DDO so great. Every day that you leave us with little new to do, and little information on what it coming, that stuff starts looking better and better. :(

Qzipoun
06-09-2008, 03:56 PM
So basically between mods I should just cancel my subscription... right? 'Cause you know... I have no idea what's coming and whether it is interesting or not...

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 03:57 PM
So, the community development team is too busy to communicate with the community?
Hmmm...
Perhaps in hopes that the next community won't have expectations of being listened to where player issues arising within this pay-as-you-go service are raised?
Curiouser and curiouser...

Well...now that they don't have all those pesky customers to care for, here's hoping release notes for upcoming mods are more comprehensive and concise than have been those available from past releases.

I have a feeling that this is not coming form the community team but from the dev team, as they provide the info for the community team to post. Looking at the most recent articles, it seems they like to be able to control what is highlighted, whereas the WDA is a raw list of changes that we diseect voraciously every week. in other words articles are easier to spin and the devs can talk about the positive things and not what nerf is going to happen or not happen

EspyLacopa
06-09-2008, 04:01 PM
Sorry, thats Checkers...

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/360563

Last I checked, Pawns in Chess have 1 of 2 ways to move at the start of the game. Knights have the same degree of movement at the start too. No other pieces can even try to move!

This would be Lv1 in D&D. Noone's moved yet, so there are severely limited choices of movement at first.

As levels increase, and you gain abilities, you can move in new ways, do new things, and the tactics get deeper.

creithne
06-09-2008, 04:03 PM
Last I checked, Pawns in Chess have 1 of 2 ways to move at the start of the game. Knights have the same degree of movement at the start too. No other pieces can even try to move!

Which may be relevant, if this were Chess Online...

MysticTheurge
06-09-2008, 04:06 PM
You know what is funny, as Mod 7 was getting released and everyone was complaining that the First Look Release Notes didn't have anything new in them and that they were just a copy of the last week's WDAs, I found myself wondering if it wouldn't be better practice for Turbine to not release WDAs so there's a bigger bang for their buck when things are actually released.

I enjoyed reading WDAs as much as everyone else, and I found the ability to provide feedback on certain things in advance of their release to be invaluable. But really, are there any other games that provide that level of near-constant information on updates? Which isn't to say that it's the right thing to do just cause everyone else is, but you know, maybe they're on to something.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 04:11 PM
I enjoyed reading WDAs as much as everyone else, and I found the ability to provide feedback on certain things in advance of their release to be invaluable. But really, are there any other games that provide that level of near-constant information on updates? Which isn't to say that it's the right thing to do just cause everyone else is, but you know, maybe they're on to something.

The last game I came from had impeccable communication with devs and players. They wouldn't answer every newb posters' question of course, but almost all the time when someone listed stats, numbers, etc... and asked, is this right? Is this working as intended, someone would be along to double check it or simply say.. yeah, that's what we were going for.

I understand the game's aren't the same thing... But Turbine should be doing a lot better.

Drider
06-09-2008, 04:11 PM
You know what is funny, as Mod 7 was getting released and everyone was complaining that the First Look Release Notes didn't have anything new in them and that they were just a copy of the last week's WDAs, I found myself wondering if it wouldn't be better practice for Turbine to not release WDAs so there's a bigger bang for their buck when things are actually released.

I enjoyed reading WDAs as much as everyone else, and I found the ability to provide feedback on certain things in advance of their release to be invaluable. But really, are there any other games that provide that level of near-constant information on updates? Which isn't to say that it's the right thing to do just cause everyone else is, but you know, maybe they're on to something.


Also people complain about lack of advertising.. and now that they are trying to get more press by giving more exclusive news to gaming news sites. People complain. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Hafeal
06-09-2008, 04:11 PM
Translation of Patience's statement:

Quarion {was canned / reassigned | retired | quit } 3 weeks ago and I don't want to try to figure out how to keep track of all this nitty gritty stuff.

;)

LOL. Probably a grain of truth to this ... ;)


So, does the WDA actually serve a purpose? I can think of one instance (the death penalty) where a major change was discussed with the community prior, and they actually created a separate thread for that, so the WDA was not even needed. As long as this practise is kept up for major player affecting changes, then I can't think of an actual reason to keep it around.

You know there have been others. Look at the responses to the WDAs and the end result and you will see other instances where changes were modified in response to player input. And certainly changes were made after gameplay dictated such (e.g., spells and enhancements).


Honestly, I think this basically means more work for me. In the past I've been able to use the dev tracker and WDA to kind of get a sense of what was new in the past week. Now, I'm going to have to keep a constant list of things whenever I happen to come across them. Basically (and hopefully) things should pretty much even out in the end, but it's going to take more work to keep everything organized. It'll also be more difficult to know what has been "confirmed" and what's being considered, ya know? If it was in the WDA it pretty much meant that it was a go. Now, with having that information spread across multiple gaming sites and stuff, it'll be more difficult to keep track of. But I will persist and succeed!

As always, thanks for the work Jerry. I hope this means we can at least get the devs on your show a little more often. :)

MacFionn
06-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Patience, i hope you are not referring to articles like this where Turbine's CEO talks a lot about LOTRO and their 5 year plan, but says absolutely nothing about DDO and its future, in reference to all the funding Turbine has recently received

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/1980

First, don't construe anything I say here as being in favor of eliminating the WDA - I happen to think it's a bad idea. Despite the fact that it only mentioned LOTRO by name, the article you cited above actually has some interesting tidbits that could represent some changes I've seen suggested here on the boards:

"Turbine is going to look toward further empowering the user. They want to be able to incorporate user generated content into their worlds... He [Crowley] also talked about giving players more customization not only of their characters, but of the level caps, spells, attacks and other areas of the game. In short, Turbine is investigating ways to give the user more power over the games that they play. They plan to talk more about these concepts over the next few months."

This could have a significant impact on the content issues with which DDO struggles. Hopefully, they are considering adding these capabilities to all the games in their portfolio, not just LOTRO.

As to eliminating the WDA, I think this is a bad idea (as I mentioned above). I was IMing with a guildie earlier and he said getting rid of the WDA was getting rid of one of the last reasons for him to visit the forums. I've been playing DDO since HeadStart, and struggle with the boredom that many of the long term community members face from time to time. The WDAs have given me something to look forward to and keep me active as a player. I think we need to at least have some big milestones published and updated in order to give people something to look forward to with some anticipation. Publish big targets - housing in Q4 2008, Druids in Q1 2009, etc - so we know the game has some kind of direction. I'm going to withhold judgement concerning this move until I see what kind of marketing and subscription momentum the DDO team can build by feeding this information to different media outlets on a piecemeal basis.

-Mac

EspyLacopa
06-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Which may be relevant, if this were Chess Online...
I was attempting to make a point of how a seemingly simple game can in fact become incredibly complex as you learn more about it. Heck, for an even simpler game, check out Go. I'm sure that's dumb enough for even a 5 year old ^_^

Juni
06-09-2008, 04:20 PM
I think this is a very bad PR move. As a very active player and guild leader I would check the WDA every time it was updated. I even promoted them to my guildies that never check the ddo forums. This was a great way to watch for small changes and bug fixes. You have alot of members out there that would only hop on to the forums to check the WDA just to make a quick run down on some of the stuff that was being fixed or changed.

Most of us long time online gamers know that the closer to MOD the less updates to the WDA there will be. We also know that you are not going to post every single detail of the MOD. But, the small fixes, enhancement changes, dungeons changes, and general fixes changes was a great way to keep people interested in the game and the up coming MODs.

The sad truth is this is going to just become another game where we get no information from the DEVs except what they release to Tentonhammer and the like. Which then gets completed reworded by the writer mixing everything up and only publishing what they feel is important not what the community feels is important. Then release of the newest MOD goes live yeah we know all about the new raid because of the very detailed Tentonhammer write-up but we know nothing about changes that will effect our characters.

We may see alot of DEV activity between now and MOD 8 but my bet is by MOD 9 the DEVs will be hushed and no new info will be released putting the players in a complete state of panic and confusion.

moorewr
06-09-2008, 04:21 PM
I was attempting to make a point of how a seemingly simple game can in fact become incredibly complex as you learn more about it. Heck, for an even simpler game, check out Go. I'm sure that's dumb enough for even a 5 year old ^_^

HEY! Don't be hating on Go! What's the quote? "Easy to learn, difficult to master!"

The RULES are very simple, but the rules are just the beginning.


EDIT: oh, the death of the WDA. I'm unhappy, but if you prove you have another avenue of discussion, then OK. So I am withholding judgment. If this turns into one more wall of silence I will be .. more unhappy.

When the development team goes to reconsider AP costs, stances, all that clean-up stuff, will there be some new way they can inform us, discuss with us? Or we just have to wait for release notes to find out things like - say - you were finally fixing the DC for fascinate, or finally fixing overlapping walls of fire? Any reason those should be "under wraps?"

EspyLacopa
06-09-2008, 04:22 PM
HEY! Don't be hating on Go! What's the quote? "Easy to learn, difficult to master!"

The RULES are very simple, but the rules are just the beginning.
Which, by the way, was the entire point of my arguement.

The rules of 4e are simple. Now add Humans.

MysticTheurge
06-09-2008, 04:33 PM
The last game I came from had impeccable communication with devs and players. They wouldn't answer every newb posters' question of course, but almost all the time when someone listed stats, numbers, etc... and asked, is this right? Is this working as intended, someone would be along to double check it or simply say.. yeah, that's what we were going for.

I understand the game's aren't the same thing... But Turbine should be doing a lot better.

And who knows. Now that they're spending less time collecting and compiling weekly updates on the things they're doing, maybe they'll have more time to answer people's direct questions.

dragnmoon
06-09-2008, 04:33 PM
Which, by the way, was the entire point of my arguement.

The rules of 4e are simple. Now add Humans.


Espy...Do you even play DDO anymore?:D:p

I can't remember the last time I saw you online...

Helmet
06-09-2008, 04:34 PM
i know my company's marketing department and be fully trusted to handle everything they need too :rolleyes:

Montrose
06-09-2008, 04:37 PM
Extremely well-written and balanced feedback Ustice. Nicely done.

My initial reaction to the cancelling of WDA posts is one of disappointment, though I am trying to keep an open mind. I can imagine a world where the WDA is unnecessary because there are many press releases and teasers floating around to hint at the new and exciting features in development. However, I am uncertain that the volume and/or cadence of these releases will deliver the same value as the WDA.

Rarely have I seen a strategy of silence work in the favor of a company. Without clear information the FUD and DOOM posts come in to fill the void. If there are no credible sources to prove these stories wrong, people start to buy into the negative hype.

I'll continue to be very cautiously optimistic about this decision, and hope that faith will be justified soon.




I doubt that this will be read by anyone that matters, and I also doubt that I will be saying anything new here, but what the heck.

I think that this is a terrible decision. I understand that you need to hold back content updates for publicity reasons, and that by doing so you will increase the number of new players that aren't reading the forums. I understand that right now, the next stuff is in a state of flux as well, and so you don't have a lot to announce that is nailed down yet. I understand how all of this sounds like a good idea, but it isn't, and here's why.

Mod 7 is out. Congrats, and thank you very much. In Mod 7 we saw the Monk, some mid level quests, a new explorer area, 2 raids, a town, and some crafting tweaks (and a cool little event that didn't last long, and was likely not as balanced as it should be. Really? Argo... last??). Here's the issue. Mod 7 was pushed back from it's planned date. It may have not been officially announced, but when you say quarterly updates that usually means 4 a year, or every 3 months, and that was our expectation. Mod 6 basically brought us a new raid and crafting (within that raid). Before that we had the raid that couldn't be beat (it has been since, but it is still buggy and requires too much luck).

What this all adds up to is very little in the way of new things to do at the high-level end in quite some time. For the last month of the game prior to Mod 7, I basically had stopped playing. Part of that is I had things going on in my life that made it less easy to play, but part was I was getting bored. When Mod 7 came out, I eagerly jumped on at the first opportunity, and you know what I wound up doing? More of the same stuff. Everyone was running the old raids to open the new. Great. I'm all for helping out, but this felt like a stretch for time by grinding (which I think that the latest mods have added too much of). Sure, I can make a monk, but I am more of a casual player, and find it tough to keep up with more than one character at a time. I have a bard that is fun to play, but he is stuck at level 10 (I think) and has been for months now.

One of the main reasons that kept me interested was the info that we get with the WDA. So while I wasn't able to get new features on a monthly basis like we used to, at least I could see what was coming, and imagine how great the game is going to be. It kept my interest in the game at a reasonably constant level (which really was helped by willphase's devtracker rss hack).

Now I am faced with a different future. Not only do I likely have a 4-5 month wait for new content (above the 5 month wait I already had, since very little of it I will be interacting with), but I don't get the dribbles of info on new features. Instead we have to scour the internet and press for info (yes you will have links, but we will have to read all of the articles for new info instead of having a central source). What you are doing with this is getting new members at the expense of the old.

You have been doing great with making the game better, and you are doing a much better job in the PR and marketing, but you are failing at keeping interest, and are likely to see a lot more churn in the future as a result as regular players start looking elsewhere for that rush of new. I don't see what is wrong with keeping the WDA, even if you don't put as much as you used to, or didn't update some of it until it's official announcement elsewhere. It still would allow you to offer exclusives while keeping community interest.

In short, I hope that you know what you are doing with this. For now, I will accept it, and hope that there is more to come. Just remember that there are a lot of new games that are on the horizon and some offer many of experiences that make DDO so great. Every day that you leave us with little new to do, and little information on what it coming, that stuff starts looking better and better. :(

winsom
06-09-2008, 04:42 PM
The operators of publicity web-sites are not all Turbine paying customers. We on these forums are. I want a lot of useful information forthcoming from Turbine well ahead of the the beginning of each project's quality assurance phase. This gives me and others time to chime in with our opinions of what is important to us. We have to know what is coming early enough that we can give positive and negative feedback that still can have an affect on the development of the game.

I would not have re-subscribed to DDO at all in the last year if it had not been for the WDA that I was able to read as a non-paying forum user. It enticed me to come back two or three times. Turbine needs to use the optimism generated by this kind of early-press to keep customers like me interested in re-subscribing. If I have to wait a very long time for Press Releases and I only get very infrequent development diaries then DDO may loose my interest all together. Listen to this customer! I suspect that many other customers are here thanks to the information in your past WDAs.

Turbine, like many development houses, is detached from their own product. You simply can not play the game enough, due to your profession, to truly know the game as well as your customers know it.

You need useful feedback while things are still in development before too much resource is spent on a game set-back. Many of your paying customers do not trust Turbine's track record of game balance and foresight -- part of this is natural customer concern and part of it is warranted based on past DDO Dev decision-making,. Most of those once-customers are not longer customers, but some of them (like me) come back and pay you more every now and then because we like what we see coming, and we know we have a chance to discuss developments BEFORE they become features on the Preview Server.

It seems that by the time something hits Risia there is almost a zero-possibility that customer feedback can change game features before they go live. That is not a good system. It may be a more typical system, where the developer actually has a better handle on the game system that they entirely-created in-house, but this is a D&D license game and is still based on 3.5 rules as far as I know... As long as DDO is based on extremely complex 3.5 D&D edition game mechanics and check & balances, I believe you need feedback from D&D community of players and game masters. They collectively know the D&D game better than any handful of Devs at Turbine and even better than some representative you are given to talk to at Wizards of the Coast.

What it comes down to is that DDO Turbine NEEDS input and discussion with its customers from an earlier stage than typical Press Release time. I believe the development decisions of the past year at DDO Turbine have been much better than the previous year and better still than the initial devs. I bet that these positive changes in direction were motivated by early feedback from your customers. Perhaps some of those customers became employees? If so then it is they that knew the actual DDO game better than the devs that initially created it, because they spent a lot of time playing it and saw it's flaws.

A select handful of mere 100s (?) on a special test server is not enough of a population to guarantee that Turbine will get the feedback that they need prior to something making it to Risia where it is then almost-impossible to change.

Azarath
06-09-2008, 05:01 PM
OK...so I see my post generated some 4.0 hate, which is valid since we're all different and have different views. However, if you read the ENTIRE post, then you saw that what I was TRYING to say in a COMICAL way is this:

IF this game is EVER gonna convert to 4.0, it would be a LONG time in the future due to the current production rate for this game.

That said, 4.0 is a good starter set to introduce someone to D&D before giving them the more complex ruleset of 3.5. WOC did exactly what they set out to do with 4.0, which is make an easier set of rules with similar classes and races that had just enough in common and just enough separate to make it interesting. Yes, I noted that in the point buy you start with one 8, but that is easily offset by racial adjustment. Yes, I noticed that Magic Missile is a save attack after I wrote the first post, but it still does more damage than currently until you hit 5th level. Yes, the new system of saves makes Force Of Personality a useless feat, but now a good portion of your feats give skill bonuses as well. Arcane spellcasters no longer have Arcane Spell Failure. You want to wear armor, train the feat for the type you want to wear. You can take feats to simulate multiclassing without watering down your main class. As for things left out to sell us more books, Gnomes are in the MM and in the back it lists how to create 1st level Bugbears, Dopplegangers, Drow, Githyanki, Githzerai, Gnolls, GNOMES, Goblins, Kobolds, Minotaurs, Orcs, Shadar-Kai, Shifters and Warforged. And since there is no ECL, you get FULL use of the races as characters, instead of watered down versions the 3.0 and 3.5 editions gave us to appease DM's.

I'm not saying everyone should jump on the 4.0 bandwagon, JUST the players in my weekly group! :)

What I am saying is that IF DDO were to do a convert, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. It would make more sense to do DDO2 instead, but it wouldn't totally suck! For one, they'd have to give us the creation points gained from the conversion do to our racial choices. :)

I hate that the WDA's are gone as well, but just like nerfs to class abilities, nerfs to spells, amps to mob damage, changes to the enhancement system and the fact that this game STILL requires WAY more xp to go from level to level that ANY version of P&P, we can't control it so we must adapt. Maybe down the road the WDA's will come back, maybe not, but for now we just have to play the game the Turbine gods have given us or leave when our subscriptions are up. It really IS that simple.

bobbryan2
06-09-2008, 05:04 PM
And who knows. Now that they're spending less time collecting and compiling weekly updates on the things they're doing, maybe they'll have more time to answer people's direct questions.

I'll be sure to hold my breath.

I can't see this as a prelude to anything but less communication and even less transparency. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though.

P.S. Add more character slots and fix potions

creithne
06-09-2008, 05:15 PM
So...8 pages of posts...and I don't think there was more than maybe 2 posts that didn't mention how apprehensive the poster felt about this change...sounds like a step in the right direction to me... :rolleyes:

winsom
06-09-2008, 05:16 PM
If Turbine is considering a 4th Edition D&D MMO game, then it should be created as D&D Online 2.

Please do not attempt to update DDO Stormreach with many more 4E concepts. They just do not mix well with 3.5 D&D mechanics.

There are much better MMO game models that DDO could learn from to become better in DDO2.

i.e. DDO1 concepts mixed with LOTRO world-design, questing and writing would be an excellect starting point when considering a DDO 2.

There is much to be gained from making a DDO 2 rather than using the dated DDO1 engine.

Patience
06-09-2008, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. As I said in the OP, we knew this would be unpopular with some of you. We appreciate the feedback both from those who have expressed their disappointment as well as those who remain (albeit cautiously) optimistic. ;) We'll do our best to ensure that you'll know what you can look forward to in each module; and in many ways, you'll get a more complete picture of it than trying to piece it together from the WDAs! For the record, I've read each and every post in the thread (although I admit skipping over the 4.0 branch of it) and will continue to follow it, as will the rest of the team.

-Meghan

Dimicron
06-09-2008, 05:30 PM
...For the record, I've read each and every post in the thread (although I admit skipping over the 4.0 branch of it) and will continue to follow it, as will the rest of the team.

-Meghan


That does make me feel a bit better, just make sure that we all have access to the media's reviews and what not. It doesn't help any of us if a small percentage of us who are willing and able to scour the web only to know bits and pieces of what's in development. Make sure the word gets around, and make sure the articles aren't 15 pages on the next raid and a small footnote about new feats/classes/etc.

And with this extra time you all now have: Release druids already, please. :)

MacFionn
06-09-2008, 05:36 PM
In the absence of WDA posts, can we at least have the devs start a stickied thread about each upcoming Mod? Give us the name of the mod and the target release month & year and then put the links to all the articles and any tidbits that you choose to release in that one thread. I've been talking to a few people that are on hiatus, and they all say that the WDA posts are their primary information source for upcoming additions to the game.

geoffhanna
06-09-2008, 05:37 PM
Wow.

I don't know how to react to this.

Doesn't seem like a good thing, does it?

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 05:39 PM
Wha?

You really think "I have no intrest in doing that Tedious chore" would be a valid excuse if her boss told her it was now her responsiblity?

Wow.. I wanna work for you. Are you hiring?

Turbine: "Tolero, With Quarion leaving us I want you to take over the posting of the WDA's each week"

Tolero: " No Thanks, thats too much Tedious Work"

Turbine: " Oh, OK, thats fine then, I guess we'll just cancel the WDA Program then. We'll mail our your final check for ya."
Sure it is... happens all the time. When you don't have the resources to do everything you keep your resources where they can deliver the best bang for the buck.

I'm sure Tolero has a hand in all of this stuff that's going on in the marketplace and event planning and such... so do you delay that stuff (which is visible by upwards of 100% of the playing population) by giving her the chore of doing WDA (which is visible by downwards of 10% of the playing population)?

Xaxx
06-09-2008, 05:53 PM
LOL why am I not surprised, they hardly give us info outside of the wda, now the wda gonna be gone to.... and more marketing is the excuse... LOL. The interviews that were given for this mod mentioned some big things that never materialized, the wda was the only thing that was material for the players, now you want us to continue to rely on interviews that were bupkis (hmm, deconstruction as the first half of the crafting system in mod 7 mentioned in multiple "interviews", oh and the *horns will be used in the creation of green steel items and other things* well they delivered on the first half... but not on the 2nd* this is where interviews will get us.

Even talking about wanting to bring us more info through dev diaries and such is an utter joke, wont happen, might as well just say yeah guys you'll see mod 8 maybe this year... and surprise when it gets here. Oh you guys thought we were gonna do a level upgrade based on the interviews.... surprise we didnt.

captain1z
06-09-2008, 06:05 PM
I did like the WDA but if this change is in line with whats needed to give DDO more press, longivity and hopefully more money towards development and promotion................... then so be it.


I do have 2 questions though:

- Does Turbine have plans to raise the level cap beyond 20 in the future?

- How many years out have you planned for the development of the game, in any form?


I was always of the belief that 20 was end of the line

gpk
06-09-2008, 06:06 PM
This is an absoultely terrible decision, in a series of terrible decisions as of late.

There have been a couple of really bad decision that have been tweaked in response to a community outrage stemming from info provided in the WDA and the game is BETTER for it; off the top of my head: 5th swing at +15 AB and death penalty tweaks.
There have been numerous others where some devs chose to bury their heads in the sand after getting repeated feeback fixes and solutions: Abbot Raid, Bab15 swing rate, Mod7 pally "stuff".

Now you are taking away the one peek at things to come therefore eliminitating ANY player feedback, therefore eliminating any last glimmer of hope that some bad design decision could be altered before they go live.

Honestly I don't know what to think anymore, decisions as of late seem to be driven more by ego and less from a desire to improve the game and deal with serious issues many of which stem from very poor decisions to begin with.

Honestly Turbine, what is going on with you guys!? :confused:

Qzipoun
06-09-2008, 06:07 PM
I do have 2 questions though:

- Does Turbine have plans to raise the level cap beyond 20 in the future?

- How many years out have you planned for the development of the game, in any form?

Answers coming to a State of the Game Address near you!

Oh wait, that was another thing Turbine said they would do and never did... hmmmm

MysticTheurge
06-09-2008, 06:07 PM
There have been a couple of really bad decision that have been tweaked in response to a community outrage stemming from info provided in the WDA and the game is BETTER for it; off the top of my head: 5th swing at +15 AB and death penalty tweaks.

Also, setting the level cap at the 4th AP instead of 1 XP shy of the next level.

parvo
06-09-2008, 06:37 PM
It's a load of...

Some new marketing intern has Turbine all fired up about "renewed focus!" and "additional exposure!" and "media exclusives!". All those things mean squat. Bottom line, and everyone knows it:

Distribution sells.

Guaire
06-09-2008, 06:42 PM
This leaves me concerned about the health of the game. In a way I get it but I look at it this way. The last 2 mods have been light on content and delayed. I see more and more folks "taking a break" until the next mod while many others depend on the promise of the WDA to keep the hope alive..... how many more take a break now? You have to do something to fill that void Turbine. Peeps need to have an idea of what is coming and a concept of when or the grind of the last 2 mods will continue to result in "breaks".:confused:

Magnyr_Delorn
06-09-2008, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. As I said in the OP, we knew this would be unpopular with some of you. We appreciate the feedback both from those who have expressed their disappointment as well as those who remain (albeit cautiously) optimistic. ;) We'll do our best to ensure that you'll know what you can look forward to in each module; and in many ways, you'll get a more complete picture of it than trying to piece it together from the WDAs! For the record, I've read each and every post in the thread (although I admit skipping over the 4.0 branch of it) and will continue to follow it, as will the rest of the team.

-Meghan

This makes me feel MUCH better about the whole scenario. Specifically the part where she mentions she "skipped over the 4.0 branch" implying they have no plans of late to screw up the game with 4.0 nonsense.

KristovK
06-09-2008, 07:04 PM
I'm not happy about the lack of a WDA but I understand the decision and have been wondering how long it would be before it happened for a while now.

Just think about it for a minute folks. Look at the last 4 WDAs and the posts that followed them, including ALL the threads started in response to the WDAs or posts in the WDA thread itself. How many people got Cubed? How many times were entire threads locked? What percentage of the player input was positive? How much bad PR does Turbine really need from the playerbase itself turning off potential new subscribers?

As I said, I'm not happy with the change, but I've been expecting it for a while, really have no one to blame but ourselves folks.

Qzipoun
06-09-2008, 07:30 PM
Just think about it for a minute folks. Look at the last 4 WDAs and the posts that followed them, including ALL the threads started in response to the WDAs or posts in the WDA thread itself. How many people got Cubed? How many times were entire threads locked? What percentage of the player input was positive? How much bad PR does Turbine really need from the playerbase itself turning off potential new subscribers?

The solution to that is to make the WDAs BETTER not take them out completly.

It's like the whole release date discussion. Turbine says August, they miss August and people get angry. The solution? Do a better job at estimating release dates, give yourself extra time and/or work harder.... not take out the release date, that's just silly, they're avoiding problems not by fixing them but by masking them.

Kaerlic
06-09-2008, 07:38 PM
I'm not happy about the lack of a WDA but I understand the decision and have been wondering how long it would be before it happened for a while now.

Just think about it for a minute folks. Look at the last 4 WDAs and the posts that followed them, including ALL the threads started in response to the WDAs or posts in the WDA thread itself. How many people got Cubed? How many times were entire threads locked? What percentage of the player input was positive? How much bad PR does Turbine really need from the playerbase itself turning off potential new subscribers?

As I said, I'm not happy with the change, but I've been expecting it for a while, really have no one to blame but ourselves folks.

Agree with you completely...

For too long now the player base and just gone nutz :eek: with replies to the WDA, if we had of been a little more restrained/diplomatic then maybe this would still be around today.

I am not happy about the removal of the WDA either, I used this tool as a means of keeping me playing longer (being able to see what's coming) without that, I might be taking a 'break' as someone mentioned earlier. Yes the monk is a great addition, but without content.... need I say anymore about that.

Hendrik
06-09-2008, 07:43 PM
Vanguard was not the downfall of DDO it was made up to be.

Age of Conan is not the ruin of DDO.

Evasion fix was not the "Doom" of DDO it was foretold to be.

Firewall fix is not driving people away in droves.

The removal of the WDA will not shutdown DDO either.

Dimicron
06-09-2008, 07:45 PM
Vanguard was not the downfall of DDO it was made up to be.

Age of Conan is not the ruin of DDO.

Evasion fix was not the "Doom" of DDO it was foretold to be.

Firewall fix is not driving people away in droves.

The removal of the WDA will not shutdown DDO either.

But the worry is summed up like this: Turbine is constantly smacking us and telling us, "No!" How long till people start getting fed up with it? How much more till we cross that line?

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

salmag
06-09-2008, 07:47 PM
This makes me feel MUCH better about the whole scenario. Specifically the part where she mentions she "skipped over the 4.0 branch" implying they have no plans of late to screw up the game with 4.0 nonsense.

Its either that or they have their OWN plans to incorporate 4.0 and don't care about what their player base thinks.

Back to the original point:

No WDA is not a good idea. They mention more marketing, which is good, but wasn't that what the WDA was? It was advertising and marketing for the current player base. It let us current players know if we should still be interested and why we should still be interested in paying for this game. To remove it alienates those that have stuck with and are currently playing, or I'll re-phrase, CURRENTLY PAYING for DDO.

Turbine needs more communication with those people that support DDO, not less.

Qzipoun
06-09-2008, 07:54 PM
Vanguard was not the downfall of DDO it was made up to be.

Age of Conan is not the ruin of DDO.

Evasion fix was not the "Doom" of DDO it was foretold to be.

Firewall fix is not driving people away in droves.

The removal of the WDA will not shutdown DDO either.

Ever heard of the anecdotal straw that broke the anecdotal camel's back?

Each single bad decision Turbine makes will not kill the game, the accumulation of bad decisions will.

Aodh
06-09-2008, 07:56 PM
So basically between mods I should just cancel my subscription... right? 'Cause you know... I have no idea what's coming and whether it is interesting or not...

My thoughts exactly.

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 08:18 PM
Ever heard of the anecdotal straw that broke the anecdotal camel's back?

Each single bad decision Turbine makes will not kill the game, the accumulation of bad decisions will.

At first I was upset about this as I look forward to the WDA much as anyone, so I decided to do the thing that always gets me going I was going to compare how Turbine treats LOTRO and DDO.

I discovered something they don't have a WDA, in fact they have never had one, they use the model Turbine is saying they are going to use for DDO. I can count the numerous times I beat up Turbine for all the LOTRO articles on MMORPG, MAssively, and ten ton hammer that DDO didn't have. If Turbine puts half the effort on putting out articles for DDO than they do for LOTRO, I could see us getting more info than we do now. The issue will be execution, most ofthese sites love getting lOTRO info and usually have people familiar with the game doingthe interviews articles etc. This isn't as apparent with DDO as we saw with some of the mod 7 articles as some of the reviewers even admitting not having touched the game since launch.

With mod 7 I saw something interesting in both its content and tone. It had little end game content, the adventure area and 2 raids are the size of some of the early point releases. It seemed more of a fit and polish release, with added features like buyback, the final rounding out of the lowbie levels, and the monk. If Turbine were winding the game down, why bother doing any of these things. It seems they are looking further down the road to some later date and doing setup for something. What that is one can only guess, an expansion, a relaunch of the game by Turbine without Atari, or I am just reading into this more than it really is, who knows. Either way short term at end game we are suffering, lets just hope that the super top secret stuff will pull us all back when that time comes.

captain1z
06-09-2008, 08:27 PM
Agree with you completely...

For too long now the player base and just gone nutz :eek: with replies to the WDA, if we had of been a little more restrained/diplomatic then maybe this would still be around today.

I am not happy about the removal of the WDA either, I used this tool as a means of keeping me playing longer (being able to see what's coming) without that, I might be taking a 'break' as someone mentioned earlier. Yes the monk is a great addition, but without content.... need I say anymore about that.

whether we complain before the release of content or at the release of content makes little difference to us as a whole. What would happen if something was posted in the wda and we complained and what will happen if content is released and we complain about some part of it.


The only difference is timing and who sees it when.

moorewr
06-09-2008, 08:29 PM
At first I was upset about this as I look forward to the WDA much as anyone, so I decided to do the thing that always gets me going I was going to compare how Turbine treats LOTRO and DDO.

I discovered something they don't have a WDA, in fact they have never had one, they use the model Turbine is saying they are going to use for DDO....

Exactly - the very first thing I did was go look at the Lotro forums.. where they do not have a development forum at all. I figured if they had WDAs I could feel justified writing my first ever doom post. :rolleyes:

The question is not whether the game will be here in a year or even three to five years. It will be. The question is whether it will fossilize before then like Asheron's Call - which is still running with a core of thousands of players, but will never see substantial new content. Given a chance this game could become an enduring niche player (and a money maker for Turbine) for a long time to come.

I have to tell myself that I should ignore everything before the Mod 6 dev cycle started when thinking about the current state of the game.. which is to say two complete release cycles since November, which isn't too bad..

I am not happy with the form the content has taken - each time a new explorer zones with a few quests.. as if Turbine has lost faith in the core mechanism of the game. To me Mod 5 was the last that felt completed (it ought to have! after six months of devleopment) with the exception of the disfigurement of the raid.

Bashear
06-09-2008, 08:30 PM
Well, let's be honest here.... I understand the idea that perhpas holding back news of upcoming game changes might be a good idea to some extent. But all this really means is the player base as a whole won't here about many of the new changes and therefore won't be able to prepare for them the same as the "special" players who get all the inside from turbine employees and reps... Such as PRIVATE forwarded reported post PM's sent to "Customer Service Reps" on this board ect. That strangely enough end up cut and pasted and forwarded to said reported posters.

Now, you can't convince me that these same players also receive inside information about game play issues and then take advantage prior to their release or becoming common knowledge within the player base. This is too be expected, welcome to the world, no biggee...... But at least the WDA gave the player base as a whole a chance to see some of the planned changes and adjust accordingly. I completely agree that Turbine needs to work to get better press for DDO, but I'm not all that sure, that this is the way to go about it.


LOL, funniest thing Ive ever read. I wonder if these "special players" also killed JFK, were the real people behind 9/11, etc. Sound like either a vivid imagination or too much free time. :rolleyes:

Hendrik
06-09-2008, 08:32 PM
Ever heard of the anecdotal straw that broke the anecdotal camel's back?

Each single bad decision Turbine makes will not kill the game, the accumulation of bad decisions will.

Sorry if the removal of the WDA is making you split Qzip. Hope I can group more with you before ya leave.

:(

I like reading them as much as everyone else, but hell, it's a game and the WDA is only a small part. I'm sure not go over the top like a GREAT deal of posters in here and claim doom and leave over the loss of a weekly post.

This is all just ANOTHER doom thread, after the OP and her reply, in a LONG list of doom threads - what I was trying to point out...

Riddikulus
06-09-2008, 09:29 PM
Vanguard was not the downfall of DDO it was made up to be.

Age of Conan is not the ruin of DDO.

Evasion fix was not the "Doom" of DDO it was foretold to be.

Firewall fix is not driving people away in droves.

The removal of the WDA will not shutdown DDO either.

14 servers -> 5 servers. Doom has come and gone. What's left is highly loyal.

Even if everyone who read the WDA left today the server pops would hardly notice.

Mod8 had better be GH size though or I do see further doom down the line as our 6 month discount subs start to reach expiration.

gpk
06-09-2008, 09:31 PM
14 servers -> 5 servers. Doom has come and gone. What's left is highly loyal.
Oh I wouldn't bet the farm on that...

I guess people will just have need "practice" at not having a WDA; after all it's practice that helps us beat the Warforged Titan and not the dozens of modifications to the Raid...

Beherit_Baphomar
06-09-2008, 09:33 PM
Yup, things like that will still show up here and there. Things we can answer, we will. This is NOT a wall of silence coming down - we just have to change the way and rate at which information is released!

-Meghan

This is not a wall of silence....

I am 100% sure anything we are told will come only after days and days of asking in various threads.

Another day at the office I suppose...

Not much else is expected.

Back to the game.

Hendrik
06-09-2008, 09:38 PM
14 servers -> 5 servers. Doom has come and gone. What's left is highly loyal.

Even if everyone who read the WDA left today the server pops would hardly notice.

Mod8 had better be GH size though or I do see further doom down the line as our 6 month discount subs start to reach expiration.


And next week there will be something else claiming to be the Doom of DDO.

:)

I do agree, what we have here in DDO are HIGHLY loyal not only to DDO itself, but to the whole genre.

The big merge, slot bugs aside, was/is a boon to DDO, not it's Doom.

Spell
06-09-2008, 10:06 PM
(looks around nervously)
... psst... can I buy some drugs from your marketing department.....

Tanka
06-09-2008, 10:28 PM
Pretty sure this point has been made by now, but I'm lazy and don't want to read the thread before saying it anyway:

Were there no WDAs for M7, we would still have the various Paladin Auras costing 2x what they cost now. 2/4/6/8 for a +1/2/3/4 bonus to AC wasn't acceptable then, and it was changed thanks to many posters giving feedback as to why it wasn't acceptable.

So now we have to sit through changes that will suddenly hit us, and test everything so thoroughly on Risia (where most content/changes are set in stone as-is) that we may as well still be Beta testing the game.

I'm disappointed about the loss of the WDA, to say the least.

You want better marketing possibilities? Handing out exclusive content to MMO websites isn't going to help. All that's gonna do is get the DDO haters to rile up because the game isn't faithful to PnP and get the WoW players riled up because it isn't another article on WoW.

Sorry, but this idea is just plain bad.

Asirin
06-09-2008, 10:30 PM
It's ok by me I like surprises.Mebbe lack of information about any new Mod coming out will cease the endless nitpicking about the specifics...it was starting to get annoying.

fefnir3284
06-09-2008, 10:32 PM
4th edition revamp is coming then, huh?

L-A-M-E!

ding ding ding, I think you are correct. that would be my only guess as to why. tis a sad day. Ive been playing dnd for 23 years, I loved 3.0 and 3.5 best, cause I like multi-class rp characters, but from what is leaked, I do not like, nor will I be getting, dnd 4.0.

but well see...

TechNoFear
06-09-2008, 10:37 PM
The WDA contained much more than new content...

The WDA provided info on bugs that the Devs had acknowledged and fixed (and therefor we did not have to keep reporting them).
The WDA provided info on small features added ie Barkeepers now repairing (and therefore we did not have to keep asking for them).

This info will be missed.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind 'Let the paying customers find out last, and through some external site clogged with ads for other games.' But I just design/create the systems and ensure the end users are happy, I do not not sell them to management, so what do I know?

The WDA allowed us input/feedback on upcomming features, without the WDA DDO feels less of 'our' game and more of a service I pay for.....

Damm those marketing droids from Sector G!

Soldarm
06-09-2008, 10:41 PM
lmao..so turbine just fired their remaining PR person..lol..the cut backs just keep on comming..get the hint everyone??

ArkoHighStar
06-09-2008, 10:49 PM
lmao..so turbine just fired their remaining PR person..lol..the cut backs just keep on comming..get the hint everyone??

noody was fired, Quarion left for another opportunity. The loss of the WDA hurts, as I enjoyed every Monday, and the new discussion it usually entailed, but in reality it was unusual for them to give us so much info like they did. You look at LOTRO and they have none of this, players get all their info from articles and interviews etc from 3rd party sites, just like every other game. Now mormally I would beat Turbine over the head with the LOTRO club screaming favouritism, but now they are doing what they do for LOTRo for DDO and I find it hard to complain(unless they screw it up). Sure we won't have weekly updates, but honestly after a while the WDA became stagnant until one of two big features were released, like once a month which is how often we will see new articles on DDO I hope

Borror0
06-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Sure we won't have weekly updates, but honestly after a while the WDA became stagnant until one of two big features were released, like once a month which is how often we will see new articles on DDO I hope

I have been alright with a bimonthly thing, that would still be better than nothing.

Exgirlfriend
06-09-2008, 11:00 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. As I said in the OP, we knew this would be unpopular with some of you. We appreciate the feedback both from those who have expressed their disappointment as well as those who remain (albeit cautiously) optimistic. ;) We'll do our best to ensure that you'll know what you can look forward to in each module; and in many ways, you'll get a more complete picture of it than trying to piece it together from the WDAs! For the record, I've read each and every post in the thread (although I admit skipping over the 4.0 branch of it) and will continue to follow it, as will the rest of the team.

-Meghan

the wda is one of the reasons i like DDO. Please do not give the WDA away to someplace like Stratics. As a 10 year vet of UO i can tell you Stratics service SUCKS.

Over the years, Stratics mods have been banned countless times from the game for cheating & exploiting, also the mods have shown alot of favorism towards there own guilds, they say somethng smart then ban You for replying. They also charge you for there service or you get mad pop-ups and it takes forever to load and even if you do pay it still crashes, Right now the servers are being redone, they lost everthing and you even have to re regester.

The worst part is you dont really get to talk to the dev's, you have to talk thru stratics and they are 1000% carebear and remove anything that even comes close to a complaint.

Reading the WDA is great please do not remove it.

Thanks alot
Exgirlfriend

tenga
06-09-2008, 11:25 PM
my take on it

-translation-
"we're not going to tell you whats going on, but rather sell the info to tentonhammer, get some publicity, and you can deal with them for any info you want"

rawfocat
06-09-2008, 11:49 PM
I have mixed emotions about this change. I understand the need for the change based on Marketing. One thing I will miss is the routine of Monday and reading the WDA. Please try and soften the blow by posting a link to some content on a partner site. It will get you hits and help the WDA readership feel like they have some idea what is gong on. A Monday, check out this article would be great.

Cordelia
06-10-2008, 01:06 AM
Wow. Ridiculous decision. The WDAs were the only redeeming quality of these forums. Spin it any way you please, ticking off your current clientèle, for whatever reason is never a smart move. Makes one wonder if there have been even more budget cutbacks...

Whatever. Please reconsider. I know the egos that be won't, but this is most certainly NOT good for the game.

Kilgore61
06-10-2008, 01:11 AM
I hate to see the WDA go as well. It was by far my main reason for visiting the forums.

Hopefully this marketing ploy will work. More subscribers are crucial to increasing new content. The contraction of servers, while greatly needed, was not a good sign for the games health. The reduced subscription fees is the reason there are no longer monthly updates.

My take is that the same info will be available, but in 'exclusive' articles. If this press entices throngs to start playing DDO then great. Unfortunately, it will leave me and others less informed, as I/we have little time to read articles on line to gleam the tidbits of new info that was previously concisely presented.

Those who feel this will reduce negative posts will be proven wrong. The timing of unpopular changes will not effect their popularity.

GeneralDiomedes
06-10-2008, 01:23 AM
You want better marketing possibilities? Handing out exclusive content to MMO websites isn't going to help.

now I've never worked as an mmo publicist, but what if some of the publications demanded that they drop it? What do you do then?

Sertrynus
06-10-2008, 01:27 AM
Gotta say that this raises a concern or 2 about the future of things to come.

1. A concern that a number of already raised is that there will be no player feedback prior to release of content, an example of this is the Bulwark of Good IV AP cost which was reduced only after the player community heard about it in the WDA and expressed concerns.

2. Second is more of a query than a concern, does this lack of WDA actually mean that more content and more attention to bugs and imbalances in the game? Those that hang around Paladin forums would love to see some responses to player suggestions for the class.

The WDA was a great way for players (ie. the paying customer) to feel like they were important by getting info before other groups, but I guess we are just the customers.............

I do hope that the lack of the WDA will mean that things will get better, but i fear it won't.

Oh yeah and a State of the Game letter would be appreaciated, given that I vaguley remember that it was going to be done back in February

Charlemagne2
06-10-2008, 01:36 AM
very disappointing.

As for increased marketing- yatayatayata

The WDA is one of the best tools for keeping in touch with the hardcore community.

I will miss my monday reading material.

bandyman1
06-10-2008, 01:38 AM
Gotta say that this raises a concern or 2 about the future of things to come.

1. A concern that a number of already raised is that there will be no player feedback prior to release of content, an example of this is the Bulwark of Good IV AP cost which was reduced only after the player community heard about it in the WDA and expressed concerns.

2. Second is more of a query than a concern, does this lack of WDA actually mean that more content and more attention to bugs and imbalances in the game? Those that hang around Paladin forums would love to see some responses to player suggestions for the class.

The WDA was a great way for players (ie. the paying customer) to feel like they were important by getting info before other groups, but I guess we are just the customers.............

I do hope that the lack of the WDA will mean that things will get better, but i fear it won't.

Oh yeah and a State of the Game letter would be appreaciated, given that I vaguley remember that it was going to be done back in February

QFT.

As for the Bolded txt; Actually we were told that a State of the Gmae address was " being drafted as we speak ' by Q back in October of last year :D. Oh, along with these huge new forum improvments that were being designed for the specific purpose of facillatating faster and better communication between the Devs and the playerbase.

Here (http://http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121563)

Scorecard? FAIL

winsom
06-10-2008, 03:02 AM
There have been a couple of really bad decision that have been tweaked in response to a community outrage stemming from info provided in the WDA and the game is BETTER for it; off the top of my head: 5th swing at +15 AB and death penalty tweaks.

There was going to be a Melee Alacrity feat which would speed up attack melee speed ! Isn't 3+ unbuffed attacks per second fast and unbalancing enough compared to how fast monsters attack us? Yes it is!

How about the discovery that the last attack in a melee chain has a substantially increased critical chance multiplier? The community spoke up and said these things are much too effective to be balanced in DDO environment.

Players had long complained that spell-damage was too insignificant relative to the inflated HPs of most DDO monsters.

Players asked for meta-magics to work better with Cure Wounds spells so we wouldn't get charged extra SPs to heal an ally just because that spell could had a Heightened Save IF..used against Undead.

Players spoke up about the lackluster damage output of ranged attackers and also how the Improved Precise Shot feat actually took away part of the attraction of the Precise Shot feat.

I could name more, but it seemed clear to me that Turbine WAS listening. What are they going to listen to the in the future if the information we receive is much less forthcoming and not timely enough for our feedback to be as useful? We players will not have much to comment on, under this new shroud of secrecy. At least that is my fear.

Not all of the above were necessarily from the WDAs but the WDAs have been the best source of communication we players have had to Turbine. It has been great to have community voice!

Turbine would listen and made changes, and then earn my dollar again after I revisit the Turbine Billing Page.

DoctorWhofan
06-10-2008, 03:06 AM
So, we have insulted the Devs to the point that now they will only want to talk to reporters and will only talk to us through a third party.

Sounds like the beginning of a very messy divorce.

...and somebody forgot to read the pre-nup!

Guess what? It wasn't us.

Cordelia
06-10-2008, 04:21 AM
I'm also curious as to how long the steaming piece of drivel put forward as an OP was scrutinized over b4 being approved to be posted. Shame on you people. Shame on your laziness, your complete lack of business & common sense, and shame on your lack of respect for forum browsers, ilustrated quite blatantly by your attempt to keep a straight virtual face while posting that hyper-spun hogwash justification as to why on earth this could possibly be a good thing for the game.

Do you really take us to be that gullible? ..or just stupid? Do you think we're stupid Meghan? Meh, I digress. I doubt it was your personal decision anyway. Oh, and the only 'Irony' present here is not what is suggested by the OP, but rather the fact that to the majority of longtime WDA readers, this latest blunder will not even come as much as a surprise... Just another tired gaff in an ongoing comedy of errors which they've stopped trying to decipher long ago.

Regardless, I will be making a point NOT to visit any of the 3rd party sites you've decided to prostitute out to with 'info', and will be recommending to my friends and guildmates to do the same.

Hvymetal
06-10-2008, 04:42 AM
I must admit this decision makes me aprehensive as well. One of the great things about this game was the feeling that the player base actually had some ability to affect upcoming changes if we thought they were really bad or needed to be modified. I have a bad feeling that this will no longer be the case and we will be getting suprised much more in the future (and not always pleasantly).

Personally I really see this as a step backwards and leading to even more bugs, fixes and balancing issues as the future goes on. :(

EspyLacopa
06-10-2008, 05:34 AM
What are they going to listen to the in the future if the information we receive is much less forthcoming and not timely enough for our feedback to be as useful? We players will not have much to comment on, under this new shroud of secrecy.

Instead of listening to people commenting on changes to come and how they could be improved, they'll listen to players raising bloody hell over changes in the latest mod. Big difference is that the ones raising bloody hell when otherwise were just commenting could easily just pack up and leave if it's not changed swiftly enough.

Hvymetal
06-10-2008, 05:44 AM
Instead of listening to people commenting on changes to come and how they could be improved, they'll listen to players raising bloody hell over changes in the latest mod. Big difference is that the ones raising bloody hell when otherwise were just commenting could easily just pack up and leave if it's not changed swiftly enough.

Exactly....

Gordo
06-10-2008, 05:44 AM
What a hoax! You actually assume the WDA qualified as a means of marketing? That its impact of not being there will effect marketing of the game? Are you serious? This was a nice thing for the players you already have. It has and will have no impact on new prospective cusomers who don't even bother coming to the boards. All they want to see is a big damn dragon cardboard cut out in EB games and GameStop that screams "Hey look at me! My company puts money ino real advertising!"

You assume we are all stupid and that is even more insulting than taking down the WDA. Who runs your marketing department? Tell them to send me a PM so I can tell them how to not only market the game to new customers in a positive way and not **** off the customers you already have.

All you needed to do was see how many views the WDA had to know how important it was to the existing base.

You guys are simply wrong on this. End of story.

Riorik
06-10-2008, 05:50 AM
4th edition revamp is coming then, huh?

L-A-M-E!

The first thing that came to mind for me was the paid expansion we've been expecting for over a year and/or DDO2.

Ustice
06-10-2008, 06:39 AM
In the absence of WDA posts, can we at least have the devs start a stickied thread about each upcoming Mod?

I think that Borro and myself (and others) will be keeping an article on the DDO Wiki/Compendium like this. If Turbine isn't going to be doing it, it's up the us players. :)

Kadagan
06-10-2008, 06:47 AM
We know that this will be an unpopular change for some of you, and bringing information to you is very important to us. This is not the end of communication between our players and the team; this is the beginning of new ways of information dissemination that promotes the game and helps to grow it even further. This is a new and exciting time in DDO’s life, with lots more to come!

Unpopular for "some" of us? More like "almost all" of us.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 06:48 AM
Unpopular for "some" of us? More like "almost all" of us.

How about everyone but those who wait to see the results?

Kadagan
06-10-2008, 06:51 AM
How about everyone but those who wait to see the results?

That's a faith move on their part... they are being kept in teh dark and told it's for their own good. People realize they have no choice on it and will make the best of it they can (both internally and externally).

Prior to the rhetoric ask them to vote on this issue and I suspect the results would be so severly lopsided that a poll would be pointless.

Shadow_Flayer
06-10-2008, 06:53 AM
Amazingly bad idea.

The WDA is the one thing that kept me coming to the forums on a regular basis.

It sure seems to me there is more interest in getting new customers than trying to keep the existing ones, the ones who are dedicated to the game.

Kadagan
06-10-2008, 06:56 AM
I must admit this decision makes me aprehensive as well. One of the great things about this game was the feeling that the player base actually had some ability to affect upcoming changes if we thought they were really bad or needed to be modified. I have a bad feeling that this will no longer be the case and we will be getting suprised much more in the future (and not always pleasantly).


I think you've hit the nail on the head. Instead of addressing issues hurting the player base the powers that be will be addressing issues that will sparkle with and through the media.

While this may be a good business decision, it sux for those of us in the current player base. However if they are sucessful our short term (guessing 4 to 6 month) loss will become a long term gain as more players means more groups and more revenue for turbine which leads to more developers/GMs/CSRs/ect which leads to a better game.

Odds of sucess.... Basing this off the mmo trend and vaporware developments and potential foreign server issues and the potential socital retaliation against anything called Dungeons and Dragons... I'm giving it a 40&#37; sucess rate.

Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!!!

Dailus
06-10-2008, 07:01 AM
Well I can't say that I am not disapointed as I really did looked forward to reading the WDA. Also being a former SWG player it gives me a slight pang of fear remembering the sudden drastic changes the NGE brought with no warning whatsoever.

That being said Turbine thus far appears to be very mindful of there player base and I'll just have to trust that I won't be blindsided by logging in one day to find DDO has upgraded to 4.0 and the bard class has been removed :eek:.

-Dailus

Ron
06-10-2008, 07:12 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. As I said in the OP, we knew this would be unpopular with some of you. We appreciate the feedback both from those who have expressed their disappointment as well as those who remain (albeit cautiously) optimistic. ;) We'll do our best to ensure that you'll know what you can look forward to in each module; and in many ways, you'll get a more complete picture of it than trying to piece it together from the WDAs!

Sorry Mehgan, but in all honesty, I find this very difficult to believe.

No third party site is going to post things like:


Halfling Guile I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.

or


Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.

or


Tomb of the Blighted
Vials of Blessed Water now remove the slow portion of blight rot in addition to the ability damage portion.
Gelatinous Cubes in this tomb will no longer be so... stubborn.

These are all quotes right out of the last WDA. This is the kind of information the playerbase needs in order to give informed opinions on upcoming changes to the game *before* they happen and are set in stone. And, as has been pointed out several times, having that information available from the WDAs has directly lead to improvements in the game.

A third party site is going to say things like:
"Halflings will get a new line of enhancements - Halfling Guile, adding to their sneak attack damage and bluff skills."

they won't even mention the other two at all. It may be a useful quote (arguably) for someone not familiar with the game, but it helps not at all for your playerbase. I fail to see how there is ANY WAY third party sites are going to give us more information than what we can "piece together" from the WDAs. ISTM we are going to be doing a LOT more piecing together from the press releases than we ever were before, and what we are piecing together, 9 times out of 10, is giong to be a lot of guessing and conjecture. Which is only going to lead to panic, whining, and flaming on the forums.

I predict a lot less forum participation in the future. The WDAs are a major draw for the playerbase (I know they were a highlight of my Monday mornings). Less players coming to the forums eventually translates into less players going into the game. There is simply no way you are ever going to convince me this is good for the game in any way, shape, or form.

I hate to be so negative about a game that I've probably been one of the biggest cheerleaders for. But I find this a VERY dissapointing decision. In my personal opinion, this may be one of the biggest blunders y'all have ever made.

Ustice
06-10-2008, 07:33 AM
How about everyone but those who wait to see the results?

My guess is that we have 4 main camps on this,

Those that are unaware of the change
Those that are upset about the change
Those that are upset but giving it a "wait and see"
Those that are taking it on faith that it will be good in the long run (but still have that niggling doubt)


I don't see anyone that think that this is a wonderful idea. At best we have people crossing their fingers.

*crosses fingers while mumbling under his breath about churn*

Borror0
06-10-2008, 07:47 AM
You forgot one camp, mine.

5. Those that tell themselves they'll have to do Turbine's job once more and inform people about stuff that Turbine should be informing them about.

I don't mind stuff like items and crafting, but their feats description should be clearer and more detailed.

VonBek
06-10-2008, 08:00 AM
No third party site is going to post things like: [... snipped for brevity ]

I wonder if they'd consider posting First Look Release Notes reasonably in advance of a mod going live. Perhaps with bug fixes, character race/class changes, if not quest-content spoilers. Something like a game mechanics change-log preview.

Calmwaters
06-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I feel that while press releases are good for increased PR, the small hint of what we had to look forward to in the WDA's at least gave something for the player base to hang on to while grinding for the next 3-4 months. The development cycle is a long hot trek through the dry desert of false promises and broken dreams, and the WDA's the only oasis in which to wash away the dust of time. Now we have to just hope that the next release will quench the thirst of our hopes for the future.

Selenay
06-10-2008, 09:57 AM
I think this is a good move. If the Devs are too busy to post weekly, then that should be an excellent sign of great things to come. Esp. if they can't talk about it because it's top secret. I mean...when it's time for presents, it's more fun to not know what it is before hand than it is to know and then have to act surprised. Not posting here also gives the Devs more time to test the updates and mods. That certainly is a plus. Before they were stuck to the strict schedule they enforced on themselves by giving updates. Things can glitch when making these updates and mods. Better to have a fully functional mod than one that was squeezed out early due to the pressure of the players.

To the Devs, great choice. Take your time and continue to create content, bug fixes and overall fun for those of us that love this game.

Borror0
06-10-2008, 10:05 AM
If the Devs are too busy to post weekly, then that should be an excellent sign of great things to come.

Uno, developers aren't the ones posting the WDAs. That's Tolero's and Patience's job.

Dos, if we're not getting any WDAs it's a bad sign, either they're running low on manpower to fill Quarion's post. Or, their production rate has slowed down, thus they have less content.

I'm not saying I agree with the last point, but if you want to draw a conclusion of what is happenning, that is what I would conclude. I personally think that this has nothing with manpower. In one case, they would have let us know. In the other, there wouldn't be so many new developers. Eladrin told me in a PM recently that he was busy training a new one, I assume it has been the same of Keeper with Django. So that's not it.

It's simply a stupid decision from someone at Turbine.

Calmwaters
06-10-2008, 10:18 AM
Acting pleased and happy at the bright yellow sweater with the purple sequined flower. Suprise!! Don't you just love what we did with your casters spells? AND we decided that your Dwarf was way way overpowered, yes we know you were just playing him yesterday, but now he has a third of the hit points and no more dwarvern armor mastery, isn't that just GREAT?

Ustice
06-10-2008, 10:22 AM
5. Those that tell themselves they'll have to do Turbine's job once more and inform people about stuff that Turbine should be informing them about.

Count me in camp 5. You won't be alone at least.

Speaking of which, I am going to see about making a few things to help out in-game (clock/timer features) with AutoHotkey. I hate it that in DDO, there is no way to tell what time it is. I'm tired of waiting for a command to do that, and so like the favicon, I'm going to solve the problem myself. :) I'll post a link when I get them all set up.

DrAwkward
06-10-2008, 10:27 AM
I can understand this decision -- as far as press goes, it's good to have something you can suprise everyone with at a convention, trade show, or interview.

Better to say "Taa-daa! Check this out!" than to say "So, this thing here is finally ready"

Ustice
06-10-2008, 10:33 AM
I can understand this decision -- as far as press goes, it's good to have something you can suprise everyone with at a convention, trade show, or interview.

Better to say "Taa-daa! Check this out!" than to say "So, this thing here is finally ready"

Holding things back is fine, and they have done that in the past. I just hope that we continue to receive DETAILED info once it is released to the press.

barabel
06-10-2008, 10:38 AM
I've read a lot of the posts in this thread and wanted to toss my hat into the camp that is very disappointed by this decision.

Listing out upcoming fixes, enhancements to game mechanics, etc. was a very good way for me to understand where the game was headed. It helped me plan for future characters to play around with and test out. It also got me excited about upcoming content and helped keep my interest in playing this game. Loosing that, well, I can only see my interest waning between modules.

I don't see how the simple list of changes posted in a forum message compares to screenshots, hands-on reviews, exclusive videos, etc. that these websites would be likely to publish. I mean, for example do you think Tentonhammer would have been satisfied getting the final WDA for Module 7 as the content they were to publish? I just don't see it.

I've been growing more and more disappointed in the communication coming out of Turbine for some time. This is yet another example of poor handling of customer relations in my opinion.

ArkoHighStar
06-10-2008, 10:40 AM
Uno, developers aren't the ones posting the WDAs. That's Tolero's and Patience's job.

Dos, if we're not getting any WDAs it's a bad sign, either they're running low on manpower to fill Quarion's post. Or, their production rate has slowed down, thus they have less content.

I'm not saying I agree with the last point, but if you want to draw a conclusion of what is happenning, that is what I would conclude. I personally think that this has nothing with manpower. In one case, they would have let us know. In the other, there wouldn't be so many new developers. Eladrin told me in a PM recently that he was busy training a new one, I assume it has been the same of Keeper with Django. So that's not it.

It's simply a stupid decision from someone at Turbine.

True they may be the ones posting it, but all the info comes from the devs, it was just organized and published by Q.

Don't get me wrong as I said I am going to miss them as well. I mean they can still give exclusives to web sites nad then 2 weeks later publish the nitty gritty WDA details, after the sparkly feeling of the exclusive has worn off.

Do it like this

MMORPG gets exclusive interview on crafting for mod 8 on Monday of week 1, they publish the various generic details etc

something like this example from Warcry for LOTRO
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/askturbine/3085-Lord-of-the-Rings-Online-Interview-Book-13

You read it and you learn that there will be a new area, fishing, and some changes for monster players.But its all 40000 foot view stuff just enough to get you interested.
Week 3 WDA you publish the nitty gritty details of the exclusive items covered 2 weeks before, giving the web site 2 weeks of exclusive info

Borror0
06-10-2008, 10:46 AM
True they may be the ones posting it, but all the info comes from the devs, it was just organized and published by Q.

They have meeting everyday. Q's duty is to tell them what he has seen on the forums, bring the players fear, or suggestions. Theirs is to tell Q where they are at. What is ready, what's a bug, or an exploit, etc.


You read it and you learn that there will be a new area, fishing, and some changes for monster players.But its all 40000 foot view stuff just enough to get you interested.
Week 3 WDA you publish the nitty gritty details of the exclusive items covered 2 weeks before, giving the web site 2 weeks of exclusive info

That's exactly why I say that WDA doesn't prevent exclusive inteviews with the medias.

smatt
06-10-2008, 12:59 PM
Well, I guess I might travel down a dangerous road and say..... This whole plan sounds a lot like how particular world leader took hold of the flow of information down the pipeline to the masses over the last 7 1/2 years..... And we can clearly see THAT turned out just peachy :rolleyes:

I think the situation here lies in that PERHAPS, there are some BIG changes coming to DDO. Maybe the rumblings I've heard from people outside of DDO, people close to WOTC, that ALL licensed products are to be updated to 4.0 is true. Just a rumour mind you, I found it rather hard to believe that such a big change would be possible really. But it this were the case then I could see how Turbine would want to keep it under wraps, it would be pretty sweeping and would likely lead to a player base upheaval of epic proportions.

Or maybe they're just sick of discussing the details of the game with the player base, and then refereeing the online melee...... Or maybe they're just trying to keep their most loyal players in the dark, as to how to prepare their characters for upcoming changes....... But this idea that a good portion of the information provided within the WDA's was soemthing that some MMO review site would be even remotely interested in posting is just plain crazy :eek:

OR MAYBE ARLOS WIL FINALYL BE FOUND ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Kisaragi
06-10-2008, 01:17 PM
My only concern with you guys doing this as we get closer to the release of level cap (level 20) is that there's no weighing in of our community. This means that you basically get to surprise us with something really unpopular and when it's released, if the player base isn't fond of it, tough cookies.


Imagine the enhancement change if it only got discussed with media sources or not at all. I imagine a great many players would have been terribly upset. Especially given that when it was announced, many people helped make it more bearable for players by asking point costs to be reduced, levels changed, etc.


It comes across more of a line in a sand then open communication. Once something is in game it is near impossible to get it changed and this change encourages that. Instead of having an entire few months to discuss elements with players about how something works, or what it changes, you're springing it on us.

Now I admit surprises are nice, when they're fun. I would ask however that you consider this; If you're changing any in game stats, monster AI, quests, items, enhancements, feats, or favor that you do put them in the WDA.

I really would be upset if you guys work on things you like and the rest of the community be damned. A case in point would be something like;

If a guild housing came along. You guys decide that only one person should be able to design it, and there aren't any living quarters, decorating, or trophy areas, and it's incredibly expensive to maintain. With new costs that must be farmed and grinded to keep in operation (I use this example because I've seen it happen to a MMO). Without us weighing in you have no one to report to, and thus, you think it's a great thing.

I have enjoyed the community here for the most part, since we were able to make things better. You want to run it like the American Government though, where everything is a secret and we're still paying for it. Even if what we're paying for is bad, wrong, or just plain dumb it's still a secret. You don't have to answer why you thought it was needed, or feel bad. It's the route a lot of dictators take.

I for one am not pleased with this development, and I suggest others weigh it very very carefully.

ahpook
06-10-2008, 02:05 PM
No offense Patience, but the announcement that the WDA was going away had the sound of marketing platitudes and spin. If you really want us to believe that we will continue to get timely information, keep the WDA around until the other sources of information come online. Then take it away citing it as redundant. Taking it away now with the statement that there will be other sources of information is a hollow promise especially in light of the constant complaints about adequate feedback.

For the readers of this forum, the WDA was part of the enjoyment we got with this game. The simple truth is that taking it away is taking away content for us. Not that we were promised WDA as part of the content but nevertheless, content we have come to expect. Its loss will impact our involvement in the game.

ahpook
06-10-2008, 02:15 PM
If the Devs are too busy to post weekly, then that should be an excellent sign of great things to come.




True they may be the ones posting it, but all the info comes from the devs, it was just organized and published by Q.


The info is posted by a Customer Relations person gathered through interaction with the dev TEAM - predominantly a project manager I assume.

Not posting the WDA has little impact on that workload. The PM is still going to have know what is being worked on and what is being completed. The CR person will have to gather this information from the Dev team so they can put together information for publication. They have to have access to all the info in order to figure out what to publish so there is no saving of effort there.

UNLESS the the CR person is not going to interface with the dev team and instead just promote articles based on high level understandings of changes. Which if true would mean that we do not have the information coming from a third party because they do not have that information themselves (and our complaints here are justified).

In fact, I think from Mod 7 we already can see how this plays out. The WDA for Mod 7 did not include any info on the monk enhancements or feats either because they were part of the publicity package given to other sites (exclusive!) or not given out at all. That level of detailed information never appeared in print. That is what we can look forward to.

moorewr
06-10-2008, 02:19 PM
Two very good posts, ahpook. I was trying to think how to lay out my concerns, but you have put them very well.

ArkoHighStar
06-10-2008, 02:24 PM
The info is posted by a Customer Relations person gathered through interaction with the dev TEAM - predominantly a project manager I assume.

Not posting the WDA has little impact on that workload. The PM is still going to have know what is being worked on and what is being completed. The CR person will have to gather this information from the Dev team so they can put together information for publication. They have to have access to all the info in order to figure out what to publish so there is no saving of effort there.

UNLESS the the CR person is not going to interface with the dev team and instead just promote articles based on high level understandings of changes. Which if true would mean that we do not have the information coming from a third party because they do not have that information themselves (and our complaints here are justified).

In fact, I think from Mod 7 we already can see how this plays out. The WDA for Mod 7 did not include any info on the monk enhancements or feats either because they were part of the publicity package given to other sites (exclusive!) or not given out at all. That level of detailed information never appeared in print. That is what we can look forward to.


We are also confusing CR with PR. Marketroid is the PR person, Tolero is the CR person, and Marketroid hasn't weighed in on any of this yet. It woudl be nice to hear from him about the basics of the plan. without obviously releasing any of the super secret details

Iceleck
06-10-2008, 03:06 PM
WDA was the only thing worth while reading on these forums.

samagee
06-10-2008, 03:07 PM
I don't understand why we can't just shoot the media outlets. If they are worried about having content for them, give them anything. They don't know what it is they splash about their pages, they spin it how they want it in order to sell papers and ad space anyway.

Solmage
06-10-2008, 06:26 PM
While I can see the point about needing exclusive news for publicity and all that...

This one ranks in the top 10 worst changes, ever. What we needed was even MORE communication, not less. Most (all?) of us have been asking to learn about stuff when it's in the IDEA stage, rather than when it's half coded/already a done deal stage.

I also think you underestimate the amount of people who rely on the WDAs simply because only a percentage of the players read the forums. I am confident that almost everyone inside a guild does get informed quite thoroughly about them, since there's usually at least one person who is the 'mechanics-go-to guy' in most guilds.

I don't have a great solution to accommodate your needs and keep the WDA, aside from perhaps just changing the WDA to something like "Development Ideas", with none of them ever being guaranteed to be implemented, and we learning which ones will be done (and in which mod) through said exclusive press releases.

I urge you to look for a solution that allows you to increase the level of communication about things that may come, not reduce it. I applaud new marketing efforts, but not at the expense of your existing customer base.

~ Current Customer

gpk
06-10-2008, 06:29 PM
These are all quotes right out of the last WDA. This is the kind of information the playerbase needs in order to give informed opinions on upcoming changes to the game *before* they happen and are set in stone. And, as has been pointed out several times, having that information available from the WDAs has directly lead to improvements in the game.

Yes this is true and I've said the same further up; however I have to wonder now.
Look at how just some important issues they haven't consulted the tons player feedback on (just off the top of my head):
-BAB 15 attack rate slow down
-Abbot raid
-Mod 7 Pally changes (other than an 8+month old Holy Sword suggestions and universal 1 AP per tier)
-Class balance issues (metas, enhancements etc)
-Crafting deconstruction to accomodate new weapon types
-Splintered Horn issues
-no new character slots for monks


There have been a number of vocal and critical posts on these subjects; if one were more paranoid one could conclude:
No WDA=no posts discussing obviously bad changes..
The WDA lets us see if some issues being addresses and in what way or if they're being worked on at all rather than being ignored.

Are we likely to get detailed information from other sites?
Worst case scenario, information blackout means there is a lot less forum discussion on important issues and all you can do is wait for the next mod to be on Risia, and by then it is too late to fix anything.

Of course the game will suffer accordingly though I'm sure a certain type of forum poster will be happy.

GlassCannon
06-10-2008, 06:34 PM
This is not a wall of silence....

I am 100% sure anything we are told will come only after days and days of asking in various threads.

Another day at the office I suppose...

Not much else is expected.

Back to the game.

I was informed that the WDA will come in a different format, from an exclusive source instead of it being posted on the forums. That way, these "Gaming news" websites will get visitations, and we will still find out what's going on in DDO on a regular and prompt basis. Nothing is really changing except where we see the news.

gpk
06-10-2008, 06:44 PM
I was informed that the WDA will come in a different format, from an exclusive source instead of it being posted on the forums. That way, these "Gaming news" websites will get visitations, and we will still find out what's going on in DDO on a regular and prompt basis. Nothing is really changing except where we see the news.

It's the "different format" that is worrysome; what does that mean exactly? If we don't get stuff like Class X enhancement is blah blah +1 crit blah blah 4 AP then we can't comment on it and hope to get it fixed before it goes live.

Sure 95&#37; of our comments are disregarded by the devs but at least our concerns are voiced well ahead of time and maybe, just maybe that 5% we help fix has a positive impact on the game.

What a lot of people don't want to see is watered down marketing style "information" being released rather than detailed, informative and helpful posts.

Hvymetal
06-10-2008, 07:28 PM
I was informed that the WDA will come in a different format, from an exclusive source instead of it being posted on the forums. That way, these "Gaming news" websites will get visitations, and we will still find out what's going on in DDO on a regular and prompt basis. Nothing is really changing except where we see the news.

I just can't see the game news sites giving us any information except in broad and sweeping strokes that really won't assist us very much, case in point look up what they had on Monks up on the news websites, was there enough information there to let you know whether or not you were willing to delete a charcater that is quite possibly capped based off the info they reported on in order to make a Monk?

Cowdenicus
06-10-2008, 09:28 PM
Coffin meet final nail.

Last account cancelled as of tonight.

Thanks for the fun Turbine, maybe I will be back for Mod8, of course I have no idea when it will come out, or what it will include, even tentatively, so I am not excited about it, and if I remember to check in, well cool.

No you cant have my stuff.

Hendrik
06-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Coffin meet final nail.

Last account cancelled as of tonight.

Thanks for the fun Turbine, maybe I will be back for Mod8, of course I have no idea when it will come out, or what it will include, even tentatively, so I am not excited about it, and if I remember to check in, well cool.

No you cant have my stuff.

Yea.

The loss of the WDA IS the Doom of DDO.

People need to get a grip.

CYA!

:rolleyes:

smatt
06-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I just can't see the game news sites giving us any information except in broad and sweeping strokes that really won't assist us very much, case in point look up what they had on Monks up on the news websites, was there enough information there to let you know whether or not you were willing to delete a charcater that is quite possibly capped based off the info they reported on in order to make a Monk?


Exactly, and while I'd like to have a positive attitude as I really do love DDO...... The amount of bugs, and debacles (Abbot) tha never seem to get fixed, and now the cut-off of any information on what's coming next... Boy in about 3 weeks when the new raids get boring, what is there to look forward to???????????????
Now if they could get gaming sites to post some detailed info, well that would be nice. But I doubt that's goign to happen.... I don't see that kind of detail for any other games. It's all speculation.
And again, I return to who will still benefit by knowing the upcoming sweeping game changes.... Who gets to prepare for them????

I think they could find a middle ground on this.....

DoctorWhofan
06-11-2008, 12:28 AM
Coffin meet final nail.

Last account cancelled as of tonight.

Thanks for the fun Turbine, maybe I will be back for Mod8, of course I have no idea when it will come out, or what it will include, even tentatively, so I am not excited about it, and if I remember to check in, well cool.

No you cant have my stuff.

Turbine, you made Cow leave.

this was bad, bad ju ju. And it's gonna get worse. We are he until SEptember, with three accounts attached to us. We (the hubby and I) are seriously, and I mean seriously, thinking about leaving at that time. We love the game, but we don't love the upper management.

gpk
06-11-2008, 04:15 AM
Well now, that's certainly interesting departures (and potential ones).

Cowdenicus
06-11-2008, 04:25 AM
Yea.

The loss of the WDA IS the Doom of DDO.

People need to get a grip.

CYA!

:rolleyes:

Note I said Final nail.

Look the newest Mod ahs 2 raids, ok, with arguably no gear I would even want for my characters. There is no advancement for my characters save I could continuously grind the shroud for another 3 months, or the reaver for +3 tomes. Doesnt sound like much fun to me, to put it bluntly, the game has lost its appeal due to lack of high end content and lack of progression of any sort.

2 more raids to grind for gear I dont want doesnt really thrill me.

Allice
06-11-2008, 04:30 AM
Ummmm what is WDA

*kicks herself for not reading DDO Terminology for dummies*

Borror0
06-11-2008, 04:34 AM
With arguably no gear I would even want for my characters.

For Vanash:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Bracers/BracersoftheGlacier.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Necklaces/LorriksNecklace.jpg


To me, to put it bluntly, the game has lost its appeal due to lack of high end content and lack of progression of any sort.

I won't argue that.

GreyRogue
06-11-2008, 09:15 AM
I just can't see the game news sites giving us any information except in broad and sweeping strokes that really won't assist us very much, case in point look up what they had on Monks up on the news websites, was there enough information there to let you know whether or not you were willing to delete a charcater that is quite possibly capped based off the info they reported on in order to make a Monk?
I'm sure you're right that game news sites will have little specific information of interest to current players. However, where is it written that external sites will be the only source of info about the game? From what Patience and Tolero have been saying, it sounds like there will still be some form of communication about upcoming changes to the game right here on the DDO forums. Of course, I haven't a clue what form it might take or whether it will be enough information to replace the WDA. But if the plan is to have more frequent Dev Diaries or dev posts regarding specific upcoming features, then the real problem is not the concept of ending the WDA in favor of other forms of communication, but rather whether or not Turbine can implement that concept in an acceptable way. This is certainly not a forgone conclusion, but shouldn't we wait more than 2 days to see what's going to happen? I mean, we wouldn't have had any new info this week anyway because the week following a Mod usually didn't have a WDA (or not much of one).

[Nothing personal against you, Hvy, your post just was a concise example of what I wanted to respond to.]