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View Full Version : Threnal East Part 2 nearly Unplayable



Zenix_Leviticus
06-07-2008, 12:07 PM
Formed a group this morning for some speed runs through Threnal East 1&2.

The first time we completed both parts because the Golems came to life in Part 2. We tried
three more times and the clay golems didn't come to life and coyle and hi idiots wouldn't stop
trying to attack them. Until Coyle gets to the door at the bottom, the quest won't go to the
next part where the side doors open.


Why oh why does one fix break several other things?

Lithic
06-07-2008, 02:37 PM
One way around this is to let coyle aggro on a mephit, take the mephit aggro, and lead the mephit beyond the golems. Once out of golem sight, you can kill the mephit and move on.

Zenix_Leviticus
06-09-2008, 08:49 AM
Nice suggestion!!

I was trying to figure out something safe enough to let him agro on..


I just wish the golems always came to life. That would fix this whole thing.

Vengenance
06-09-2008, 09:12 AM
One way around this is to let coyle aggro on a mephit, take the mephit aggro, and lead the mephit beyond the golems. Once out of golem sight, you can kill the mephit and move on.

I used this same trick on Saturday when he got stuck on the Golems; it worked like a charm.

Thailand_Dan
06-09-2008, 09:44 AM
Had the same thing happen to me. I could attack the clay golems with my smite club, and 0's were popping up, but he seemed to save on confirmed crit, no matter what he rolled when I hit a 20. After about 15 minutes of swinging at the motionless clay golem, I gave up. Thx for the advise to get around this one.

Isn't this one of the oldest quests in game? Has this bug always been here?

phinius
06-09-2008, 09:51 AM
Reaching the first shrine at the top usually activates the golems. Rather than taking the first or second left to head to the bottom continue straight to the shrine. The golems should activate after that.

Gordo
06-09-2008, 09:52 AM
This is NOT a cure all. We already tried this tactic this weekend and it failed numerous times. It is a bug and needs to be fixed. Coyle is a tool.

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 10:07 AM
Had the same thing happen to me. I could attack the clay golems with my smite club, and 0's were popping up, but he seemed to save on confirmed crit, no matter what he rolled when I hit a 20. After about 15 minutes of swinging at the motionless clay golem, I gave up. Thx for the advise to get around this one.

Isn't this one of the oldest quests in game? Has this bug always been here?

All immobile/unactivated Mobs are now Completely immune to everything until they "Spawn" No More Smiting innactive Constructs.

In_Like_Flynn
06-09-2008, 10:13 AM
All immobile/unactivated Mobs are now Completely immune to everything until they "Spawn" No More Smiting innactive Constructs.Good. Less silly is better.

moonprophet
06-09-2008, 10:22 AM
There is a wonderfull interrveiw on ddocast this week with a member of the turbine QA team that explains this sort of thing. Because so many features of the game are interweaved, in sometimes less than obvious ways, fixing one problem can lead to creating another. In this case, fixing the pathing issues that allowed the shroud raid to be (e-worded), caused pathing problems in other seemingly unrelated areas of the game. The most bltant example in the kundarek warder quest which was shut down. Threnal was also appearantly effected. Unfortunately, it is not possible to test every quest in the game after each change is made, and things get missed. Another example of this was the fix to prevent clerics and bards from incurring spell failure related to wearing armor when using scrolls that mirrored wizard spells. This was fixed and tested. What was nottested and caught was that the fix removed ALL armor based arcane spell failure.

So, as you can see, what might seem like (to someone that actually has no experience with the database that runs this game) a simple coding matter, is often a more complex issue than it appears on the surface. When fixes are made, many things have to be considered , such as how is this going to affect everything else in the game, and how long will it take to test, and will the player base be more cranky if we leave the bug in, or delay the release of the content another week?

Impaqt
06-09-2008, 11:18 AM
Expecting EVERYTHING in the game to be tested prior to releasing a new mod is unrealistic. THe problem occurs when something that effects players in an extremely negative fasion gets pushed to the backburner of the fix list rather than getting fixed right away.

The AI really needs to be looked at long and hard.... Just running around Atraxias Haven yesterday, many wildment absolutely would NOT aggro on me. It was an exercise in futility trying to chase them down for a kill.

HumanJHawkins
06-09-2008, 11:46 AM
<CUT>Another example of this was the fix to prevent clerics and bards from incurring spell failure related to wearing armor when using scrolls that mirrored wizard spells. This was fixed and tested. What was not tested and caught was that the fix removed ALL armor based arcane spell failure.

Well... This is the result of using kluges. I'm not blaming Turbine, as all companies do it... It is just too attractive for people to resist.

It is why whenever I hear someone say "If we use x, y, and z from that other hunk of code, we can save a whole day of coding time", I almost always try to talk them out of it (unless x, y, and z are really appropriate). But I usually lose that argument, and it usually comes back to bite us for twice the programming time a few months later when we have to fix it.

crschoen
06-09-2008, 06:30 PM
So, as you can see, what might seem like (to someone that actually has no experience with the database that runs this game) a simple coding matter, is often a more complex issue than it appears on the surface. When fixes are made, many things have to be considered , such as how is this going to affect everything else in the game, and how long will it take to test, and will the player base be more cranky if we leave the bug in, or delay the release of the content another week?


System Integration Testing (SIT), in the context of software systems and software engineering, is a testing process that exercises a software system's coexistence with others. System integration testing takes multiple integrated systems that have passed system testing as input and tests their required interactions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration_testing

VirieSquichie
06-09-2008, 06:40 PM
Well... This is the result of using kluges. I'm not blaming Turbine, as all companies do it... It is just too attractive for people to resist.

It is why whenever I hear someone say "If we use x, y, and z from that other hunk of code, we can save a whole day of coding time", I almost always try to talk them out of it (unless x, y, and z are really appropriate). But I usually lose that argument, and it usually comes back to bite us for twice the programming time a few months later when we have to fix it.

Perfect example of why they call it the "Art" of reusing code. Unless done really really carefully, the results are usually closer to abstract art than anything else...could be interesting to look at, and may well provoke an emotional response, but in the grand scheme of things not practically functional whatsoever.

Good coding takes much longer up front, but in an ongoing project the future maintenance times will be so much shorter than trying to untangle spaghetti at every turn.

DeadlyGazebo
06-10-2008, 08:41 AM
Formed a group this morning for some speed runs through Threnal East 1&2.

The first time we completed both parts because the Golems came to life in Part 2. We tried
three more times and the clay golems didn't come to life and coyle and hi idiots wouldn't stop
trying to attack them. Until Coyle gets to the door at the bottom, the quest won't go to the
next part where the side doors open.


Why oh why does one fix break several other things?

One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course.... There's a big hunk of code that controls what your pets/allies/charms can attack. We made a number of changes in that code recently; unfortunately it did cause this unexpected issue.

That said, we are aware of the problem, and a fix is on the way (ETA unknown, but hopefully it will be in a patch soonish).

swooshrp
06-10-2008, 10:24 AM
One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course.... There's a big hunk of code that controls what your pets/allies/charms can attack. We made a number of changes in that code recently; unfortunately it did cause this unexpected issue.

That said, we are aware of the problem, and a fix is on the way (ETA unknown, but hopefully it will be in a patch soonish).

Gianthold Tor is having the same problem on the giant skeletons right before you enter each dragon. Though curiously it has been only the white dragon. We would just go onto the blue dragon and come back and it would work properly...

One side note, I havent tried going to a different dragon first yet other than white, so I am not sure if it's related. I believe it be related to either AE spells or charmed monsters, but this hasn't been fully tested.

Anyways, you may be able to look there for more clues on whats causing it.

Thanks.

rimble
06-10-2008, 10:34 AM
Expecting EVERYTHING in the game to be tested prior to releasing a new mod is unrealistic. THe problem occurs when something that effects players in an extremely negative fasion gets pushed to the backburner of the fix list rather than getting fixed right away.

The AI really needs to be looked at long and hard.... Just running around Atraxias Haven yesterday, many wildment absolutely would NOT aggro on me. It was an exercise in futility trying to chase them down for a kill.

Yeah, mobs have definitely gotten alot more "runny" again. I like that the Sentrys are working again...had a good 'oh crud' moment in the last part of WW when the Sentry went and rang the bell to get the Ogre out...I'd gotten so used to just ignoring all that...

Zaodon
06-10-2008, 11:14 AM
All immobile/unactivated Mobs are now Completely immune to everything until they "Spawn" No More Smiting innactive Constructs.
Good. Less silly is better.

Yeah, because it should be impossible for characters to destroy an object right next to them with weapons specifically designed for that item's destruction.... unless that object animates.

/sarcasm

I realize this was a balance/game play fix, but it doesn't make any sense. I can destroy it if it animates but not if its just standing there? Complete nonsense.

ArkoHighStar
06-10-2008, 11:18 AM
In the desert you can see it very clearly on the three mummys that have the spell storing ring. It is very easy to test, if you want them to pop then walk over them and they will arise, want to not have them pop drop an AOE spell like firewall on top of them beforethey pop and they will stay there . Saw it with the giants as well in the TOR we killed the first round, and then they just stopped, we started to leave and all left the platform and voila they spawned again. It looks like the fix to stop pets getting hit by AOE spells prevents them from triggering the spawn script, as soon as the firewalls were gone and we had left the platform they kind of reset and so they started spwaning again

BillBob
06-10-2008, 11:41 AM
It's just the instability that is starting to make the game less enjoyable. I can only imagine it getting more difficult to code when the community is gonna want more complex content that reflects the power of the player characters. I cringe when i think of the signature spell Time Stop lol Anyway, i'd love to see more time spent straightening out the code but i'm sure it's gonna take the back seat to the potential revenues generated by enticing more players through new content.

Que Sira Sira.... Kudos tho :)

Zenix_Leviticus
06-10-2008, 12:17 PM
One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course.... There's a big hunk of code that controls what your pets/allies/charms can attack. We made a number of changes in that code recently; unfortunately it did cause this unexpected issue.

That said, we are aware of the problem, and a fix is on the way (ETA unknown, but hopefully it will be in a patch soonish).

Thanks for the response!!

Most reasonable people don't expect perfection. What they expect is someone to acknowledge their issue and deal with it. You
Sir have done that!

This post has to be the most useful the forums have ever been to me. I got a temporary work around and the acknowledgement
that the issue is being looked at by a dev.

Ale for everyone!! Let's celebrate!

Umbra
06-10-2008, 12:27 PM
Had the same problem in "The Offering of Blood" in the Desert, we had a pet out and some firewalls up and it broke the scorpion spawn when you touch the offering on the alter. We had to reset the quest and touch it and then cast etc once it came out. We were able to reproduce it.

Umbra

HumanJHawkins
06-10-2008, 12:29 PM
One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course....

Just a thought... Did you look into just having an attack on inanimate objects trigger them to activate? Sure the occasional smite would get through on the first attack, but overall this would be a good realistic solution. It would certainly stop the ranger sitting there trying to banish an elly for 2 minutes rather than just waking it up and killing it.

Riggs
06-10-2008, 01:43 PM
Expecting EVERYTHING in the game to be tested prior to releasing a new mod is unrealistic. THe problem occurs when something that effects players in an extremely negative fasion gets pushed to the backburner of the fix list rather than getting fixed right away.

The AI really needs to be looked at long and hard.... Just running around Atraxias Haven yesterday, many wildment absolutely would NOT aggro on me. It was an exercise in futility trying to chase them down for a kill.

I have noticed this on many monsters. Slimes in waterworks, many wolves, that see you and turn and run. Or kobolds that face the wrong way and go running off attacking in the opposite direction. (Playing monk a lot so mostly lowbie anecdotes).

RvLeshrac
06-13-2008, 01:24 AM
Expecting EVERYTHING in the game to be tested prior to releasing a new mod is unrealistic. THe problem occurs when something that effects players in an extremely negative fasion gets pushed to the backburner of the fix list rather than getting fixed right away.

The AI really needs to be looked at long and hard.... Just running around Atraxias Haven yesterday, many wildment absolutely would NOT aggro on me. It was an exercise in futility trying to chase them down for a kill.

Perhaps they've simply coded the AI *too* well, and have instilled in them a sense of self-preservation?

GlassCannon
06-13-2008, 03:38 AM
One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course.... There's a big hunk of code that controls what your pets/allies/charms can attack. We made a number of changes in that code recently; unfortunately it did cause this unexpected issue.

That said, we are aware of the problem, and a fix is on the way (ETA unknown, but hopefully it will be in a patch soonish).


wait... was I the only one panicking? oh... ok then.:p

Sue_Dark
06-13-2008, 07:33 AM
Yeah, mobs have definitely gotten alot more "runny" again. I like that the Sentrys are working again...had a good 'oh crud' moment in the last part of WW when the Sentry went and rang the bell to get the Ogre out...I'd gotten so used to just ignoring all that...

Yeah, we put together a lowbie group for a few clanmates to try out monks. I'm on my baby-buff sorc and had just shrined, we'd previously killed the ogre's guards and they didnt get a chance to ring the gong. Re-pop, which i didnt see as i ran by, rang the gong and I stop thinking "what was that?!?" turn around and there is a named ogre comming at me. The rest of the party hears their 1/2ling sorc howling as he runs away (we were on elite and I was awful squishie). Scared the **** outta me... which was awesome. I havent had that kinda surprise in DDO in a very long time. :)

MrWizard
06-13-2008, 09:24 AM
One fix breaks other things because things are interrelated, of course.... There's a big hunk of code that controls what your pets/allies/charms can attack. We made a number of changes in that code recently; unfortunately it did cause this unexpected issue.

That said, we are aware of the problem, and a fix is on the way (ETA unknown, but hopefully it will be in a patch soonish).

yea...and charms...wow....good way to take that spell out of the game..

near completely broke at times.

MrWizard
06-13-2008, 09:26 AM
can I also add, summoned monsters can be near useless now due to attacking empty air....not even a place where something spawns.