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View Full Version : The Kill Count would have more meaning if...



GrandinBob
05-30-2008, 11:41 AM
...the following counters were added:

- Number of hit points inflicted by a player
- Number of hit points of damage taken by a player
- A Hit(Swing) to Miss Ratio for a player
- A Hit(Success) to Save Ratio for a caster
- Number of spell points spents by a caster
- Number of times a player as died
- Number of times a player was raised
- Number of hit points a player was healed for

ahpook
05-30-2008, 11:51 AM
I don't think there is anyway to post enough stats to make people happy. For every stat they add there will be demands for 2 more to allow somebody to prove the value of their build.

I think they should just allow logging of the combat log and let the player base develop tools to draw stats out that information. The benefits of this are:

trivial amount of work for devs.
no impact on server only on clients that chose to use this feature.
stats are your own and cannot be used by others unless you chose to share.
the availability of stats is only limited by our ability to process the data.
based on some of the tools we have seen, we can get better results.
stats can span quests or character lifetime even.


There may be a few additional details they want to put into the log if they go this route (like the total monsters killed at quest completion that shows up in the XP panel).

If they do add a log they can even change the kill count to a party total and remove the epeen contest entirely. Players can still voluntarily participate in the epeen contest by figuring out that they killed 75% of the monsters from the combat log.

Nott
05-30-2008, 12:11 PM
Even with raw data being made available, there's just too many details that will be lost and so someone will feel slighted. Examples... your caster hastes the melee, so some of the melee damage belongs to them but won't get reported as such. Your priests (or casters) give everyone resists, but will they get credit for the damage that is saved? Caster FTS's everything in sight, where's their credit? Hold Monster credit. Con damage that doesn't result in the kill, but really does.

Could all of that (and the many things I overlooked) be output? Sure, I suppose so. I don't think it would be worth it though... instead, just get rid of the individual kill counts.

Ralmeth
05-30-2008, 02:13 PM
Even with raw data being made available, there's just too many details that will be lost and so someone will feel slighted. Examples... your caster hastes the melee, so some of the melee damage belongs to them but won't get reported as such. Your priests (or casters) give everyone resists, but will they get credit for the damage that is saved? Caster FTS's everything in sight, where's their credit? Hold Monster credit. Con damage that doesn't result in the kill, but really does.

Could all of that (and the many things I overlooked) be output? Sure, I suppose so. I don't think it would be worth it though... instead, just get rid of the individual kill counts.

Agreed. The easiest thing for the developers to do is to remove the kill count list. I would much rather that the developers work on other things that add value to DDO.

Porkchop
05-30-2008, 02:24 PM
Agreed. The easiest thing for the developers to do is to remove the kill count list. I would much rather that the developers work on other things that add value to DDO.

I disagree. The EASIEST thing for the developers to do is leave it the way it is. That would leave the devs even more time to work on things you want. Plus if you don't like to see kill counts, you could always, you know, not look at it...

pjw
05-30-2008, 10:17 PM
...the following counters were added:

...

Add:

- the number of times the player was attacked
(or similar)

The motivation here is to give credit to intimi-tanks and their ilk, who take aggro and allow squishy chars to kill things without getting hurt.

Spisey
05-30-2008, 10:22 PM
Don't forget the most important.

Most flame wars started in the forums! :D

I would like the actual dps (a real number/sec) and a hit / miss ratio. Both would be pretty kewl but overall I hope that just add those to the G15 display panel!

Attomic
05-30-2008, 10:50 PM
I would like to see people actually using their own judgement to determine value to a party. Anyone who's been in the game long enough to get a character capped ought to be able to make a decent off-the-cuff evaluation of how well everyone in the group played their roles; anything more is wasted surplus.

pjw
05-30-2008, 11:18 PM
Anyone who's been in the game long enough to get a character capped ought to be able to make a decent off-the-cuff evaluation

Disagree; you also need to play all classes to really be able to asses this. It wasn't until I played a tank that I realized just how nice it was to be permanently hasted (yes, ppl like it, but I had other things to do with mana). Now my casters make an active effort to perma-haste (I perma-haste myself, announce it, and make an active effort to wait for players heading toward me when recasting).

Playing a cleric made me realize how expensive some tanks could be for no real gain (no control of aggro, no kills, lots of heals, what's going on?); playing a tank I try to be effective and cheap to heal. BUT this is where the problem lies (for me). I get mostly useless feedback from clerics. Americans are way too polite. They are very disinclined to give honest feedback to people they don't know, especially if you seem like a polite & friendly player.

So, I want numbers to help me decide if I need to reroll my tank.

On my cleric, I'd like to see stats for heals, wasted heals etc.

One solution here is *not* to go overboard on the kill count dialog, but to do what EVE Online does -- allow for extensive (buffered) logging to a file (flushed when zoning or idle), then interested third parties can write log-trawlers to collect this data.

This way I can see how well my ftr did, I can ask good tanks I know to send me their logs, and I can get a real assessment of how good I am. We can even compare our own performance over time in the same quest.

Hey...this also saves people from the embarrassment of really bad numbers for all to see.

Edit/Addition:

Logging would also allow for DPS calcs as requested in an earlier post.

Attomic
05-31-2008, 07:27 PM
*shrug* Still don't need the numbers to see if someone rocked, stunk or was adequate. If people communicate while in a quest instead of being a gaggle of six soloers who happen to be in the same place, it becomes obvious. Sooner or later, you get to a point where you can tell how much of a contribution you personally made in your role - I've already ditched a couple of characters because I could tell they weren't doing what their sets of roles required. Didn't need numbers to see it. Also didn't need numbers to know when I had hit on a winning combination.

Mostly, this game doesn't need to be turned into yet another statistician's wet dream. It's a game where you work your way through problems to get to a goal; success usually shows who did well and failure usually shows who did not so well... but, most importantly, why. Why do we "need" to know anything more than we can see with our eyes and process with our brains based on experience? Let's face it: any statistic given in this game can be read (or, more to the point, MISread) to mean anything the reader wants it to mean. Sure, they CAN show a tendency, but if that tendency is not fully qualified in the shifting context of the player, gear, party, tactic and strategy, it's an empty number.

pjw
05-31-2008, 09:11 PM
If people communicate while in a quest instead of being a gaggle of six soloers who happen to be in the same place, it becomes obvious.


Yep, but for the most part they don't. I also think it's too much to expect in each and every pug. Regular and/or guild groups are another matter.


Sooner or later, you get to a point where you can tell how much of a contribution you personally made


Sadly, I'm not there yet on my third tank. I need feedback, hence meaningful numbers would be nice.



Why do we "need" to know anything more than we can see with our eyes and process with our brains based on experience?


Because, at least for me, pursuing a "personal best" seems like a good goal. Again, for me, topping kills with a tank always comes with the questions "was I a mana sponge"? and "Could I have done better?"

So, yes numbers can be misused. If you don't know what you are doing, don't use them. And *never* use them as the basis for game fun. As you say, the experience is the main part.

Putting the numbers in detailed log files, with player specifics only available to each player, we avoid much of the misuse problem (at least public misuse).

But it does hinge on getting *good* numbers from the logs.

Korvek
05-31-2008, 09:33 PM
...the following counters were added:

- Number of hit points inflicted by a player
- Number of hit points of damage taken by a player
- A Hit(Swing) to Miss Ratio for a player
- A Hit(Success) to Save Ratio for a caster
- Number of spell points spents by a caster
- Number of times a player as died
- Number of times a player was raised
- Number of hit points a player was healed for

As long as it doesn't include amount healed above maximum hit points for that character I wouldn't mind that. You might get some cleric spamming Heal/scrolls when a cure mod would work otherwise...Maybe add in an Overhealing total for each character...

pjw
05-31-2008, 09:36 PM
As long as it doesn't include amount healed above maximum hit points for that character I wouldn't mind that.

As a cleric, it needs that as well, BUT needs to indicate the amount of wasted heals.

Pellegro
05-31-2008, 10:49 PM
I'd love to have access to more data, and ahpook's suggestion seems like a really easy way to do it. Optimally I'd like to have someone sit down adn think it through a bit to make sure that at a minimum each class's traditional core capabilities are somehow represented in the data dump. But I'd be happy with anything.

To those who think giving access to more data would be bad for the game ... To each their own. For some (many), the stats are a huge part of the fun of the game. Nobody is suggesting you'd have to play "show me your's and I'll show you mine" unless you wanted to. But there is little downside in my mind to having more information available to those who would enjoy using it - whether you approve of how they use it, or not.

Borror0
05-31-2008, 11:21 PM
Maybe add in an Overhealing total for each character...

Yeah, that's needed.

I'd be for them to improve the combat log too.

ahpook
05-31-2008, 11:33 PM
I'd love to have access to more data, and ahpook's suggestion seems like a really easy way to do it.
Just to be clear. Other's have suggested it first. I am merely an evangelist for the idea.

arikka_hador
05-31-2008, 11:35 PM
In my opinion, at least in the case of a cleric's healing, you don't need the experience report to keep track for you how well you did. The Combat Log is a function already present in the game, which gives you some pretty detailed information as to what's going on, and how you did. I have noticed that after a certain point, it kinda cuts off though, which could be a problem.

Other than that, I see no reason to post such information in the quest report... other than to show off, or be embarrassed. And while everyone would like to show off how great their build is... maybe things are best left as they are right now.

pjw
05-31-2008, 11:39 PM
I see no reason to post such information in the quest report... other than to show off, or be embarrassed.

Yep; whatever summary turbine does will not be enough (...or too much) etc. Which is why logging raw data to a file will be more useful.

Attomic
06-01-2008, 01:02 PM
Yep, but for the most part they don't. I also think it's too much to expect in each and every pug. Regular and/or guild groups are another matter.

Here I'm going to have to disagree with you strongly - communication is even MORE important in PuGs. In regular/guild groups, you've learned each other's playstyles, capacities and weaknesses, and active communication (i.e., quest-related for that moment or for moments immediately ahead) isn't as needed. But in PuGs, where you tend not to have that kind of mutual background, you have more need of keeping in constant communication to know who's doing what and the like. Uncommunicative PuGs usually end up on my DNG list - they may be decent people underneath the silence, but I'm in this game to have fun, and a big chunk of having fun in a strategy/tactics game is that planning and improvising as a group.




Sadly, I'm not there yet on my third tank. I need feedback, hence meaningful numbers would be nice.

Because, at least for me, pursuing a "personal best" seems like a good goal. Again, for me, topping kills with a tank always comes with the questions "was I a mana sponge"? and "Could I have done better?"

So, yes numbers can be misused. If you don't know what you are doing, don't use them. And *never* use them as the basis for game fun. As you say, the experience is the main part.

Putting the numbers in detailed log files, with player specifics only available to each player, we avoid much of the misuse problem (at least public misuse).

But it does hinge on getting *good* numbers from the logs.

Don't sell yourself short - the fact that you're aware of all those aspects means you're probably aware of many aspects in-game, and I'd be willing to bet that any thoughtful analysis you form as a result is pretty accurate. Numbers have a nasty history of being incomplete; paying attention bypasses that.

Turial
06-01-2008, 04:29 PM
I would like to see these things for my own personal use with the option for players to make such stats visable to others.
...the following counters were added:

- Number of hit points inflicted by a player
- Number of hit points of damage taken by a player
- A Hit(Swing) to Miss Ratio for a player
- A Hit(Success) to Save Ratio for a caster
- Number of spell points spents by a caster
- Number of times a player as died
- Number of times a player was raised
- Number of hit points a player was healed for

Sue_Dark
06-02-2008, 10:08 AM
Perhaps a dumb question, but...

Doesnt the current combat "chat" log give most of this information, if not all of it? Obviously, it doesnt tell overheals or things of that nature, but it gives all your die rolls, damage, SR checks, etc. I havent tried (at work atm) but isnt there a /log command to create a text log? If so, couldnt you just set to combat tab and log the flow there? Perhaps un-dock your party (or whatever) chat window so you can still see it also.


As I said, I dont know off hand if the /log command exists. I dont know that the combat tab covers the "raw data" that people in the thread are asking about. Just a thought.

Issip
06-02-2008, 10:19 AM
...the following counters were added:

- Number of hit points inflicted by a player
- Number of hit points of damage taken by a player
- A Hit(Swing) to Miss Ratio for a player
- A Hit(Success) to Save Ratio for a caster
- Number of spell points spents by a caster
- Number of times a player as died
- Number of times a player was raised
- Number of hit points a player was healed for

I don' think this would add anything. What about the bard whose songs increased everyone's damage on every attack? Or reduced the mana cost for all the casters? Or an AC tank that keeps the aggro off of everyone else? How about a crowd control caster - having the mobs webbed the whole time is an irrelevant contribution, right?

You cannot improve rating completely different contributions by increasing the amount of irrelevant data you publish. Adding those things may make it more interesting for you, but it has no utility in guaging player contributions with or without additional data.

Yaga_Nub
06-02-2008, 10:21 AM
... it was removed.

Borror0
06-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Perhaps a dumb question, but...

Doesnt the current combat "chat" log give most of this information, if not all of it?

The current chat log can tell you a great part of this. You've got to turn on the (Combat) option. However, it just list them all and it's all scrambled. It does not allow you to have a global view of the combat/quest. Adding it all at some place makes more sense than a random collection of information like this:


Combat log:
X misses you.
You hit X for xx damage.
Your Flaming weapon hits X for x flaming damage.
Your Pure Good weapon hits X for x good damage.
X misses you.
You hit X for xx damage.
Your Flaming weapon hits X for x flaming damage.
Your Pure Good weapon hits X for x good damage.
You hit X for xx damage.
Your Flaming weapon hits X for x flaming damage.
Your Pure Good weapon hits X for x good damage.
You hit X for xx damage.
You roll to save against Disentegrate. 1, fail!
You take 200 damage.
The clerics heals you for 400 HP.
Your Flaming weapon hits X for x flaming damage.
Your Pure Good weapon hits X for x good damage.
You hit X for xx damage.
Your Flaming weapon hits X for x flaming damage.
Your Pure Good weapon hits X for x good damage.
X hits you for xx damage.


It's limited in its use and can't store much information. It can't even store all the data gathered during a whole quest. It's not like if the party would stop if you asked them to because you want to check your combat log to see how good you're doing in the quest. And no, there is no way to create a text log to save all of this either. But anyway, it's not very useful if they don't allow us to sort data by type.


Perhaps un-dock your party (or whatever) chat window so you can still see it also.

I did that, but when you start swinging your weapon, data usually goes too fast for you to read much it.