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View Full Version : kukri should be a monk weapon



CSFurious
05-29-2008, 01:04 PM
a kukri is a big knife that originated in Asia

a kama is a farming implement that was used in Asia

both kukris and kamas are used in martial arts originating in Asia

devs, for the sake of giving monks another finesse-based slicer to use & just plain common-sense, please make the kukri a martial weapon for the monk class

that is all

Karrai
05-29-2008, 01:08 PM
Guess what, Asia does not exist in Eberron.

Impaqt
05-29-2008, 01:10 PM
Daggers would make more sense IMO.

CSFurious
05-29-2008, 01:14 PM
but, we all know from D&D history that the monk came from Oriental Adventures which was set in an Asian-themed locale (i still remember reading that book many times during my 10-year-old ninja phase)

anyway, it is beyond dispute that both the kama & the throwing star are of Asian-origin

therefore, your Eberron comparison does not hold water because using your faulty logic neither kamas nor throwing stars would exist there either


Guess what, Asia does not exist in Eberron.

Coldin
05-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Kukri's aren't monk weapons in PnP. Enough said.

I wouldn't mind seeing some Siangham make their way into the game though. :)

Impaqt
05-29-2008, 01:26 PM
I just dontunderstand why it would of been difficult to imlement a couple more real monk weapons... Said could use the same animation as a dagger bud do Bludgeon damage and siangham could just use the Dagger animation as well but do Pierceing.

Kronik
05-29-2008, 01:33 PM
How about a Sickle?

I thought that was a monk weapon too.

fatherpirate
05-29-2008, 01:38 PM
technically, monks used about every weapon listed...except maybe crossbows

long swords, axes, daggers, bows...ect...ect..
just depends on the base form, kung fu itself used a bunch of weapons.

As for this game, yes I think monk needs a few more weapons.

Gauery
05-29-2008, 01:47 PM
The Sickle is a european invention based off of the kama. The blade was curved more to allow a shorter stroke to do the same work as the kama. Kukri is mainly a SE Asian weapon used for hunting and battle curved to inflict mass damage with little effort(or so my old text books said). Seeing how The OA books were mainly Northern China and Japanese influenced the kukri would be aa exotic weapon to the Northern Tibetan monks the book takes the class from. Yet again another degree wasted on gaming debates lol. Anywho I could have sworn that sickles, scythes, the like were monk weapons in 3.5 ?

Alavatar
05-29-2008, 02:29 PM
In my opinion this all would have been solved if the Monk had originally been referred to as a Pugilist, thereby not putting either a religious, geographic, or philosophical conotation to the class. This would make the classed name general similar to the generic Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Bard, Sorcerer, and Barbarian classes. Then, as a generic class, the Pugilist weapons could be defined by a specific Type, such as light simple weapons or something.

I blame TSR since they had monks in AD&D 1st Edition (I think).

MysticTheurge
05-29-2008, 03:52 PM
Special monk weapons: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham.

That's it, unless you expand it via feats.

KristovK
05-29-2008, 04:28 PM
In my opinion this all would have been solved if the Monk had originally been referred to as a Pugilist, thereby not putting either a religious, geographic, or philosophical conotation to the class. This would make the classed name general similar to the generic Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Bard, Sorcerer, and Barbarian classes. Then, as a generic class, the Pugilist weapons could be defined by a specific Type, such as light simple weapons or something.

I blame TSR since they had monks in AD&D 1st Edition (I think).

The original Monk WAS a Monk, from a monastery, and was bound by very strict rules of conduct. Weapons allowed were bo stick, club, crossbow, dagger, hand axe, javelin, jo stick, pole arm, spear and staff. All of which are actually used by most monastic orders of the Tibetian/Chinese traditions, including the crossbow(the Chinese had extremely advanced crossbows). The Monk class was exactly what it says in the original game, and playing one was even more difficult then playing a Paladin.

Now, as for the kukri being a Monk weapon just because it's from Asia...huh? The kukri was a tool used by the peoples of the Indonesian area, which is technically Asia, but it wasn't a well known tool or weapon in the rest of Asia, any more than the shuriken was well known and used in Indonesia. That's like saying the Chinese should all be proficent with the katana because it's from Asia, despite the fact that it was a weapon specific to the warrior class of Japan and wasn't used elsewhere in Asia. Matter of fact, the Chinese preferred the saber or a thin bladed light sword over the katana, and there were a LOT more Chinese than Japanese, so by your logic, the Samurai should actually have been using the saber?

Rameses
05-29-2008, 04:58 PM
a kukri is a big knife that originated in Asia

a kama is a farming implement that was used in Asia

both kukris and kamas are used in martial arts originating in Asia

devs, for the sake of giving monks another finesse-based slicer to use & just plain common-sense, please make the kukri a martial weapon for the monk class

that is all

If by Asian you mean this. ( http://www.gurkhas-kukris.com/kukri_history/khukri_origin.php) Then you are absolutley; maybe right.

I am, Rameses!

CSFurious
05-29-2008, 06:00 PM
who says the D&D monk is from the shaolin temple?

honestly, i do not care anymore, i am just going to fight empty-handed on my first monk


The original Monk WAS a Monk, from a monastery, and was bound by very strict rules of conduct. Weapons allowed were bo stick, club, crossbow, dagger, hand axe, javelin, jo stick, pole arm, spear and staff. All of which are actually used by most monastic orders of the Tibetian/Chinese traditions, including the crossbow(the Chinese had extremely advanced crossbows). The Monk class was exactly what it says in the original game, and playing one was even more difficult then playing a Paladin.

Now, as for the kukri being a Monk weapon just because it's from Asia...huh? The kukri was a tool used by the peoples of the Indonesian area, which is technically Asia, but it wasn't a well known tool or weapon in the rest of Asia, any more than the shuriken was well known and used in Indonesia. That's like saying the Chinese should all be proficent with the katana because it's from Asia, despite the fact that it was a weapon specific to the warrior class of Japan and wasn't used elsewhere in Asia. Matter of fact, the Chinese preferred the saber or a thin bladed light sword over the katana, and there were a LOT more Chinese than Japanese, so by your logic, the Samurai should actually have been using the saber?

Strakeln
05-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Special monk weapons: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham.

That's it, unless you expand it via feats.We've all seen those in game, under the guise of daggers.

Scar_Weaver
05-29-2008, 10:03 PM
Guess what, Asia does not exist in Eberron.

LOL! Nothing else to add but the OP has a decent point.

Auran82
05-29-2008, 10:11 PM
We've all seen those in game, under the guise of daggers.

Except Sai are blunt, not piercing.

Strakeln
05-30-2008, 12:03 AM
Except Sai are blunt, not piercing.That depends on how you use it!

QuantumFX
05-30-2008, 01:32 AM
Not to mention that the Eberron campaign allows a monk to add 3 more weapons to the monk special weapon list via feats: Whirling Steel Strike (Longsword), Double Steel Strike (Two-bladed Sword) and Serpent Strike (Longspear). (I think Keith Baker is a fan of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.) Now I understand that 2 of those weapons aren't in game but I can't find a single optional Eberron specific monk feat in game. (ex. Flensing Strike, White Scorpion Strike, Sudden Willow Strike)

Unfortunately I think Turbine's gonna have to start thinking about adding missing weapon types to the game. And, unfortunately, that means investing more than $2.50 and a coupon for a free pizza in the animation budget.

MysticTheurge
05-30-2008, 08:27 AM
And, unfortunately, that means investing more than $2.50 and a coupon for a free pizza in the animation budget.

Ouch.

You've seen the new unarmed animations, right?

EinarMal
05-30-2008, 08:29 AM
Ouch.

You've seen the new unarmed animations, right?

Sure and they only took 1.5 years longer than they originally estimated.....

cdbd3rd
05-30-2008, 08:34 AM
... Anywho I could have sworn that sickles, scythes, the like were monk weapons in 3.5 ?

Dunno about 3.5, but in 1st they had POLEARMS!!!!


/pokes Devs. ;)

dragnmoon
05-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Ouch.

You've seen the new unarmed animations, right?

Yup... I think they added Bruce Lee flicks to the Animation budget.. ;):D:p

Battery
05-30-2008, 08:49 AM
In my opinion this all would have been solved if the Monk had originally been referred to as a Pugilist, thereby not putting either a religious, geographic, or philosophical conotation to the class. This would make the classed name general similar to the generic Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Bard, Sorcerer, and Barbarian classes. Then, as a generic class, the Pugilist weapons could be defined by a specific Type, such as light simple weapons or something.

I blame TSR since they had monks in AD&D 1st Edition (I think).

If it was a pugilist you would further pigeonhole them into only having boxing gloves as class weapons :)

Kaldais
05-30-2008, 08:58 AM
Except Sai are blunt, not piercing.

Sai is actually an underwater weapon, primarly used to pierce small boats or people. Chinese term for it is loosely translated to Water Parting Needles.

Katana is actually a Tang dynasty invention, a slightly more straight blade tho, but it had more usage in Japanese culture. In reality, it should be classified as a saber not a sword. Both the Chinese and Japanese actually uses the word saber to describe a katana instead of using the word Sword.

SniptheShadow
05-30-2008, 09:14 AM
Wiki:

"The kukri (Devanāgarī: खुकुरी) is a heavy, curved Nepalese knife used as both tool and weapon. It is also a part of the regimental weaponry and heraldry of Gurkha fighters. It is known to many people as simply the "Gurkha Blade" or "Gurkha Knife"."

My best friend was Peace Corp. Nepal. He owns three and brought me back one as well. They're awesome, btw! The one I have is the larger size and heavy as can be; a bit surprising, actually.

As far as being an appropriate weapon on a Monk...? My views are the more weapons any class gets to use the better, but I won't sweat it.

I just wanted to clear up what a Kukri really is on this thread.

Thanks all.

Snip

Stormanne
05-30-2008, 11:15 AM
Yup... I think they added Bruce Lee flicks to the Animation budget.. ;):D:p

Thats a very astute observation, considering Lee broke down Wing Chun, Ie Chin, Kung Fu, and Pa Kua to create Jeet Kun Do. He removed all the formal stances, unnecessary tradition, and incorporated the basic attack strings of each form. He later added bits and pieces of Tae Kwon Do, Akito, and Karate to fully flesh out his system.

Stormanne
05-30-2008, 11:18 AM
Sai is actually an underwater weapon, primarly used to pierce small boats or people. Chinese term for it is loosely translated to Water Parting Needles.

The sai originated (in what can be considered its current form) in or about 1090 AD for moving and threshing bundles of rice. It was a precursor to the pitchfork in China..

Kaldais
05-30-2008, 11:43 AM
The sai originated (in what can be considered its current form) in or about 1090 AD for moving and threshing bundles of rice. It was a precursor to the pitchfork in China..

Yes, but i'm talking about weapon usage not farm usage.:)

Missing_Minds
05-30-2008, 12:15 PM
Special monk weapons: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham.

That's it, unless you expand it via feats.

meh.. list them all.

-------
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
-------

Funny how only the kama, quarterstaff, and shurikens are the only weapons that don't make you loose your centering. Clubs will make you lose your centering although they are supposed to be proficient with them. Candy Canes also make you loose your centering. Go figure.

RazorrX
05-30-2008, 12:27 PM
meh.. list them all.

-------
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
-------

Funny how only the kama, quarterstaff, and shurikens are the only weapons that don't make you loose your centering. Clubs will make you lose your centering although they are supposed to be proficient with them. Candy Canes also make you loose your centering. Go figure.

That is because . . .
PHB 3.5 Pg 40 :

Monks are proficient with certain basic peasant weapons and some special weapons that are part of monk training. The weapons which a monk is proficient are club, crossbow (light and heavy), dagger, hand axe, javelin, kama, nunchucku, quaterstaff, sai shuriken, siangham, and sling.

(( DDO does that as well, but not all weapons are in game yet))

PHB 3.5 PG 40:

Flurry of Blows:
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quaterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

Here we have DDO made Flurry of Blows basically 'centering' giving full AB vs the actual PnP version. This is their game, and thus their house rules. To that effect the whole "centering" thing is working pretty much in line with that concept of FOB = Centering = only a few weapons.

You are proficient with many more than you can use to FOB. If you can not FOB with what you have in your hand you are not Centered. *shrug* I can live with it.

I would like feats to add some more weapons as FOB weapons. Like the Kukri, daggers, short swords, long sword, etc. but am not too upset if that never happens.

fatherpirate
05-30-2008, 12:50 PM
I would be happy if you could use a feat to turn a weapon you are prof at into a KI weapon.

I know sounds like an odd statement cuz monk weapons are KI weapons.
I am saying it from the point of view of a multiclass monk

So

If you had say...a monk/ranger...you could spend a feat to turn your longbow prof into a monk weapon
(so using it does not uncenter you)

I would put a restriction on it

By having the feat you remove the uncenter effect, but still should not get the improved weapon speed..that should be
reserved for unarmed, kama, staff, star and the feat should be very specific...not 'martial weapons' more like 'longswords' or 'longbows' or 'thrown daggers'

also, exclude repeating crossbows...trust me on that :-P

MysticTheurge
05-30-2008, 01:17 PM
meh.. list them all.

I did.

Proficiency doth not a special monk weapon make.

fatherpirate
05-30-2008, 01:30 PM
I did.

Proficiency doth not a special monk weapon make.


Very true

It would be NICE if you could use a feat to overcome that restriction,
however it would be a DDO house rule....so not holding my breath.

MysticTheurge
05-30-2008, 02:20 PM
It would be NICE if you could use a feat to overcome that restriction,
however it would be a DDO house rule....so not holding my breath.

Not in several cases.

Eberron has feats that allow you to use longswords, double-bladed swords and longspears as special monk weapons.

Rickpa
05-30-2008, 02:51 PM
Real world Tibetan monks don't fight... with the possible exception of the Dob Dobs, a brutish sort that are employed to guard some Gelugpa school monasteries.

"The Dob - dob are a special body of monks, found only in the great monasteries of Drepung, Sera and Ganden, distinguished for their physical strength and courage. Young monks who are strong and active and who can't find a teacher or are bad at learning, are drawn to join one of the groups into which the Dob - dob organize themselves and which go in for the most strenuous sports and exercises. They used to meet, as soon as it was light, in a sandy valley to the west of Sera, take a shower under a cold waterfall or a dip in a little stream and then run naked in the sand, wrestle, or practise carrying and throwing heavy stones. The most important exercise was long - jumping off a raised ramp and formerly there were great competitions with the Dob - dob of Drepung who were Sera’s long - standing rivals. The competition had to be stopped some time ago because there was a big fight and a monk was killed; but it was a Dob – dob’s ambition to be a good jumper and tough and skilful in all sports."

http://www.thdl.org/xml/showEssay.php?xml=/collections/cultgeo/mons/sera/essays/people-monk.xml&l=d1e1507

It doesn't appear that these fighting monks used weapons beyond sticks, rocks, and their own limbs. My guess Tibetan monks were a not factor in contriving the D&D monk.

Drider
05-30-2008, 03:09 PM
Kukri's aren't even martial arts weapons. Just because they are from "Asia", doesn't make them one.

Drider
05-30-2008, 03:18 PM
Ouch.

You've seen the new unarmed animations, right?


I think someone doesn't realize how much animations can actually cost.

CSFurious
05-30-2008, 03:31 PM
go tell that to some Filipino or Indonesian martial artists

the kukri is used in SE Asian martial arts

just because Mr. Migayi's ancestors on Okinawa did not use it to fight the samurai does not make it any less of an Asian martial weapon than the farming implements

the American equivalent would be the Bowie knife

you should research more before you post incorrect statements


Kukri's aren't even martial arts weapons. Just because they are from "Asia", doesn't make them one.

Drider
05-30-2008, 03:40 PM
go tell that to some Filipino or Indonesian martial artists

the kukri is used in SE Asian martial arts

just because Mr. Migayi's ancestors on Okinawa did not use it to fight the samurai does not make it any less of an Asian martial weapon than the farming implements

the American equivalent would be the Bowie knife

you should research more before you post incorrect statements


Funny being filipino and having taken some Escrima.. we never used a kukri.. the kris and butterfly knife yes.

The only martial art that I can even thing that uses it.. is Bando.. and that's because the Kukri is like the national knife of Burma and they start carrying the things when they are young.

fatherpirate
05-30-2008, 03:55 PM
I think someone doesn't realize how much animations can actually cost.

they can cheat that....as they did for monk staff

monk staff animation....regular staff animation.........same

do the same for the knife in question

tenga
05-30-2008, 06:34 PM
kukris suck, i want my finessable q-staff

QuantumFX
05-31-2008, 04:41 AM
Ouch.

You've seen the new unarmed animations, right?

Yes. The comment wasn't aimed at the quality of those animations. In fact if you look in the Risia forum you'll find that I do like their modelling/texture work in 3BC. What I'm ticked off about is that Turbine is using it as an excuse not to implement new weapons/missing fighting styles.


I think someone doesn't realize how much animations can actually cost.

Modelling and Texturing are the time intensive parts. Once you have your joints set up setting up the animations are easy. AFAIK we've been using the same character models for over 2 years.

fatherpirate
05-31-2008, 04:47 AM
lame excuse then since the monk using weapon animations is that same as any other class
using said weapon.

the only new animations was unarmed...and a couple of kicks seen in demo videos (that I never seen a
real player monk use)

MysticTheurge
05-31-2008, 07:35 AM
What I'm ticked off about is that Turbine is using it as an excuse not to implement new weapons/missing fighting styles.

You say "excuse," I say "reason." Let's call the whole thing off. ;)

Kilnedric
11-05-2010, 02:47 PM
I also vote for kukris being added to the special monk weapon list.

Any devs ever weigh in on this and whether it'd be considered?

Ravoc-DDO
11-05-2010, 04:48 PM
Monks remain centered with Sentinel's Kukri (Epic) Midnight Greetings. You may still lack the proficiency for it though. It also uses INT as damage modifier.

NaturalHazard
11-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Kukris come from Nepal/Tibet? used by the famous gurka?

Fishcatch22
11-05-2010, 04:59 PM
If I ever made a monk, I'd make it to punch things, and I'm pretty sure most people do. I can easily do THF or TWF with any class, but I can only kill scary things with my fists with the monk class.

Jaid314
11-07-2010, 02:13 AM
there is a very simple balance-related reason why monks don't get kukris.

take a look at the current list. you may notice that in every single case, they crit for x2 damage, and they only crit on a 20 (with some special exceptions).

the kukri, on the other hand, has one of the best critical hit profiles in the game, equal to the rapier, scimitar, and falchion. the only weapon with a better profile is the khopesh.