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mjayg
05-28-2008, 07:48 PM
I really like WF and am considering it for my Monk but wanted to hear from other people about the pros and cons of a WF Monk vs other races.

Any input is appreciated. THANKS!

Ghoste
05-28-2008, 07:57 PM
There is no other choice.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/schindianajones/CharCreation.jpg

Borror0
05-28-2008, 08:00 PM
There is no other choice.



That explains a few things.:D

Korvek
05-28-2008, 08:01 PM
There is no other choice.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/schindianajones/CharCreation.jpg

That's actually somewhat frightening...

Then again, I guess we fleshies do tremble at the sight of many warforged at a time...

On topic, the main disadvantage warforged would have is the penalty to wisdom, but receives bonuses as their constitution bonus leads to a higher concentration score and they get inherent armor as a warforged (even though this is probably techinically armor, I think DDO overlooks it for Centered purposes), which can lead to a reasonably high armor bonus in addition to other armor class bonuses.

Ghoste
05-28-2008, 08:04 PM
On topic, the main disadvantage warforged would have is the penalty to wisdom, but receives bonuses as their constitution bonus leads to a higher concentration score and they get inherent armor as a warforged (even though this is probably techinically armor, I think DDO overlooks it for Centered purposes), which can lead to a reasonably high armor bonus in addition to other armor class bonuses.
It's not just DDO that overlooks it. PnP rules clearly state that wf composite plating is an exception to the rule with monks and druids with armor.

mjayg
05-29-2008, 10:54 AM
Any build suggestions for a pure WF Monk (28 pt)? Not taking /cleric or /wiz or anything like that...

ktb
05-29-2008, 12:09 PM
90% of my toons are WF. I love WF. I've played WF from the very beginning when they were a race only a mother could love. I dig the 'forged!

I have no idea why people think they are a good choice for a monk. The -2 Wis is pretty tough and most of their immunities are either covered by Monk abilities or less valuable because of a monk's killer saves. My people seem to have gotten over the healing penalties, it still is difficulty.

I think the better races are:
human (more skills, feats, flexible attribute bonuses)
halfling (shuriken thrower, bab and AC bonus)
Dwarf (Chr is a dump stat, combat enhancements are great)

valczir
05-31-2008, 02:07 AM
90% of my toons are WF. I love WF. I've played WF from the very beginning when they were a race only a mother could love. I dig the 'forged!

I have no idea why people think they are a good choice for a monk. The -2 Wis is pretty tough and most of their immunities are either covered by Monk abilities or less valuable because of a monk's killer saves. My people seem to have gotten over the healing penalties, it still is difficulty.

I think the better races are:
human (more skills, feats, flexible attribute bonuses)
halfling (shuriken thrower, bab and AC bonus)
Dwarf (Chr is a dump stat, combat enhancements are great)

True, the -2 wisdom sucks, but they also get a +2 bonus to AC, and monks have self-healing skills that I hope won't be affected by warforged's healing issues, plus warforged never drown (I really like this one), look cool, ...

Granted, I would probably rather be a half-orc. Valczir's con is laughable, so having +2 con is pointless. However, a difference of 1 in an ability modifier isn't really that huge - you'd still be effective, as a warforged monk, if not exactly the best. If they implement battlefists, the warforged monk would probably become actually desirable.


My build is probably going to start like this: (28 pts)
(I'll be using items, enhancements, and/or stances to even out the odd stats; might eventually use tomes)
Str: 15 (I like to use combat feats, and having a low str makes them less useful)
Dex: 15 (It may not be as useful as 17 con, but Valczir is a dextrous person, so I'm putting my points into dex instead)
Con: 10 (Valczir doesn't care about being able to accept hits - he stuns/kills people before they can hit him)
Int: 10 (concentration, spot, jump, tumble - they may not all be particularly useful, but they fit Valczir and make the game more fun, for me)
Wis: 13 (I would love to go higher, but my points are already spread pretty thin)
Cha: 6 (Valczir doesn't care what you think of him)

Level up stat points will go to wis, most likely. Wherever my stats go, I will need to have at least one of them high enough to get the final tier of the Way that I use for the stance. I'll probably try to take both water and air, as air has a really nice stance and water has really nice attacks (I love the water/neg/water paralyze finisher, and the attack that makes opponents vulnerable to sneak attacks would be nice for when I'm grouping with rogues, which is most of the time, because I like rogues). I doubt I'll use either the fire or the water stance, as both of them decrease the DC of some of my combat feats.

Feats:
1: (monk) Power Attack, Cleave (I had no idea how useful Cleave can be until I tried it out on Risia on a whim; killed ~10 spiders in one attack, gaining me that much Ki in the same time, and it's equally useful on non-spiders. Only thing that would make it better is allowing us to make a Cleave attack using one of the Fists of... attacks - which would be way overpowered, I know.)
2: (monk) Improved Sunder
3: (monk) Path of Inevitable Dominion, ? (Might be weapon finesse, if I plan to go the route of the air stance - otherwise, I'll probably take toughness or another combat feat)
6: (monk) Stunning Fist, Great Cleave (I have to assume that Great Cleave is even more useful than Cleave)

... After that, I'm not sure. I haven't gotten very far, I know, but I play this game slowly enough that it will probably take me at least two weeks, if not a month, to get that far. By then, I'll probably have better ideas for what to take in the following levels.

Anyway, I need to get to bed. We're celebrating my birthday (which was May 27), tomorrow, so I shouldn't be staying up this late.

Rickpa
06-01-2008, 01:32 AM
I have noticed fewer and fewer warforged monks on Risia. Could it be a too complicated build in a very complicated class?

Jakarr
06-01-2008, 02:52 AM
I am also thinking about making my monk wf its that or human but Ill prob end up making both =)
As for pros for going wf ppl say the immu are redundent(sp) hehe imo Poison and Diesase arn't much to worry about ppl play wf b/c of the immu to hold person, exhushtion(sp), energy drain-lvls, and the 25% fort also a few other thinks which I forgot atm. But then add on at 16 pure monk u will have a 26spell res and be immu to almost everything =). Add on we can be healed by arcane and I know for the first month clerics will be hard to find =), the -2 wis isn't that bad a good monk build will only really have 14 wis more then that yer dex/str/con will blow. Add on we get +2 to con, now I'v been seeing alot of low con monk builds and lower the hp the worse off ya are imo get ya a nice con to start 16 18 or at least a min of 14.

Cons -50% to healing, the +2 armor really isn't that big of deal,-2 wis isn't the end of the world and doesn't matter on a class u arn't going to cap wis at char start anyways.
Also add in Wf look the best and are pretty cool looking with the new moves

Now on the other hand a Human Monk will do good also. But a cool build I might try after my Monk/Wiz is a Dwarf Pure Monk take 4 feats of Toughness and the badger line and ya should have just about as much hp as a barb hell do a 6monk for 3 extra feats then take rest in barb for wootang hp =)

All in all, all the races are great for the monk.

valczir
06-01-2008, 04:36 PM
A low con is acceptable, although you need to fight a lot smarter. Being careful to keep your enemies on their toes will make you take a whole lot less damage, and some careful use of Cleave can get you through those ugly beginning levels.

If you work on getting your AC up (via wis, dex, and various items), you'll only be hit once in a blue moon, which leaves you taking damage at about the same %/time as a high con monk. That may change later in the game, but early on, that's what it amounts to. My level 3 monk just ran through waterworks on normal with no special loot - heck, I still haven't managed to get a +1 dex item to bring his dex to 16 (or 18 with the air stance). He was hit about once every 15 attacks. Admittedly, with 10 con (12 base - 2 from air stance), he had to use several potions being hit even that amount of the time, but that was with a single item granting +1 AC. If I would bother to grab a group and actually make it through all of waterworks until I found those black widow bracers, I'm sure the story would be different.

I respectfully disagree about wis not being important. The monk gets plenty of abilities that rely on wis for DC, they get to add their wis bonus to their AC, they use wis for will saves (which will be important, as the monk will likely end up being a caster hunter, what with his high speed, abundant step, high will saves, etc), and wis determines their max Ki. It is, depending on how you plan to play your monk, somewhere in the top three abilities. It's probably most important for those who intend to use all kinds of monk abilities all the time, second most important for those who use str-based abilities as well as the monk ones, and third most important for those who intend to rely mostly on passive feats and the like to make them more effective.

That said, I don't think it's a good idea to max any of the monk's stats, as they make use of so many. However, putting 8 or 10 points in wis (to bring it to 15 or 16 for most classes, 13 or 14 for warforged) will probably become standard procedure for any monk intending to make full use of the monk abilities like Fists of Darkness/Light/whatever, Stunning Fist, etc. Unless I'm mistaken. Which I could be.

We really haven't gotten a chance to see how the monk will fare in a group that's not entirely monk, all that often, so we don't know exactly what the monk is going to turn out to be. My guess is that he'll end up being the guy who abundant steps to the casters and annihilates them before they can do damage to the group - which is what my rogue usually does, at the moment. If the monk takes over that aspect of fighting, due to the abundant step, high will saves, and high movement speed, I can see my rogue getting a lot more kills than he currently does. Chasing after those casters while running at normal speed sucks.

Delzon
06-01-2008, 11:42 PM
Now on the other hand a Human Monk will do good also. But a cool build I might try after my Monk/Wiz is a Dwarf Pure Monk take 4 feats of Toughness and the badger line and ya should have just about as much hp as a barb hell do a 6monk for 3 extra feats then take rest in barb for wootang hp =)

All in all, all the races are great for the monk.


Monks must be lawful and barbarians can't be.

Riggs
06-02-2008, 03:43 AM
A dex based race like elf or halfling will actually have a +3 ac over a wf. +2 base dex for halfling/elf, -2 wis for wf, and +2 dex enhancements by level 10 = 3 point difference. The +2 ac for plating will mean +7 armor, +8 with ritual, but a white dragon scale robe will be +6/+7., +1 for halfling also if you go that way. So 2 points wf vs elf and 3 points wf vs halfling.

The immune to level drain is still big. -3 ac may be a big deal if your going for a high ac build. 50 vs 53 is pretty significant. Extra con is nice, but not as good as ac. But I do love wf so will probably make one just because if I have room.

In the end, any race and many builds will make a good monk. Just dont multiclass without a really, really good reason. There is pretty much nothing 1-2 levels of any other class gives that will compete with high level monk abilities and enhancements.

Angelus_dead
06-02-2008, 03:55 AM
A dex based race like elf or halfling will actually have a +3 ac over a wf. +2 base dex for halfling/elf, -2 wis for wf, and +2 dex enhancements by level 10 = 3 point difference. The +2 ac for plating will mean +7 armor, +8 with ritual, but a white dragon scale robe will be +6/+7., +1 for halfling also if you go that way. So 2 points wf vs elf and 3 points wf vs halfling.
It's not quite that simple. The warforged can get other beneficial effects on his +5 docent. In fact, the Abbot raid gives you +6 docents, and it might be getting fixed. But even if its not, a warforged in the White Dragon Docent has 100% fortification, while a halfling in the White Dragon Robe has only 75% fort, meaning he needs to spend another item slot bringing it to 100.

Hvymetal
06-02-2008, 05:16 AM
It's not quite that simple. The warforged can get other beneficial effects on his +5 docent. In fact, the Abbot raid gives you +6 docents, and it might be getting fixed. But even if its not, a warforged in the White Dragon Docent has 100% fortification, while a halfling in the White Dragon Robe has only 75% fort, meaning he needs to spend another item slot bringing it to 100.

Aye, and honestly waiting to see how my to hit is at higher levels, I may end up going with WF power attack enhancements on my Monk when it goes live. I am not fond of the doubling up of immunities as others have mentioned, but for me I will play a WF Monk cause a) I love forged, and b) they seem to still have enough benifit to make them worthwile while perhaps not the most optimal race.

Illuminati
06-02-2008, 08:04 AM
I got two words for you on why WF monks will rock:

Ancient Beholders

The new raid has them and if its consistant with other 'ancient' mobs, won't be easily fingered , etc.

Deaths_ward
06-02-2008, 08:17 AM
One thing people seem to forget about warforged, their composite plating is considered an armor bonus, and doesn't stack with any other armor bonus (I.E. +6/+7/+8 armor bracers), so if your planning on using such an item it totally negates that bonus, but an Upside is that a WF monk can make full use of docents so they effectively wear +5 Armor, and Armor Bracers.

Illuminati
06-02-2008, 08:22 AM
I thought the composite bonus stacks with Docent Armor bonus??

I.e. +2 stacks with Docent of Defiance for +6 Total.

With the Dodge bracers on, a Docent with +5/6 bonus (from Alchemical) = +8 Armor Bracers.

VonBek
06-02-2008, 11:03 AM
I thought the composite bonus stacks with Docent Armor bonus??

I.e. +2 stacks with Docent of Defiance for +6 Total.

With the Dodge bracers on, a Docent with +5/6 bonus (from Alchemical) = +8 Armor Bracers.

WF composite plating starts at +2 AC. 1

WF composite plating (AC +2) and the AC bonus from a docent (say, your +4 Docent (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/DocentofDefiance.jpg)) stack, for total ac bonus of +6. 2

WF composite plating (AC +2) and the AC bonus from a docent (say, a +4 Docent) stack, for total ac bonus of +6. But, include Black Widow Bracers (AC +4), and The WF base armor counts as just +4 (eclipses the composite plating). Equipped, the docent still stacks on the composite for total of +6. Remove the Docent and the Base AC goes to the BW Bracers (+4) 3

Other AC bonuses like Dodge, Deflection, or Natural get added on after that initial reckoning. Assume a Dodge feat, +1 Protection (for Deflection), and Barkskin +3 and (+5 all together):


1 AC +7
2 AC +11
3 AC + 9


Somebody will certainly correct me if I erred.

Ghoste
06-02-2008, 02:08 PM
One thing people seem to forget about warforged, their composite plating is considered an armor bonus, and doesn't stack with any other armor bonus (I.E. +6/+7/+8 armor bracers), so if your planning on using such an item it totally negates that bonus, but an Upside is that a WF monk can make full use of docents so they effectively wear +5 Armor, and Armor Bracers.
Not sure if you're saying +5 enchantment on a docent doesn't stack with the 2 from composite plating. In any case, it does. But you are correct in saying it doesn't stack with the armored bracers, although I don't believe anyone has claimed so anyways.

Composite plating stacks with docent bonus the same way the base armor class of leather armor stacks with an enchantment bonus that leather armor may have. So a +5 docent is a total of +7 to armor. A docent of the claw with alchemical bonus added via crafting is +9 AC on composite plating.

Add to that the fact that wf can wear chaosguarde for a +2 a dodge bonus. Some monks will have dragonscale robes, and thus will also be able to wear chaosguarde, but most will just have armored bracers taking up that slot.

That comes to a total of +11 compared to +8 for a fleshling with dragonscale robe, alchemical bonus, and chaosguarde. Could go higher with other dodge/natural ac items, but fleshling monks can set up that same bonuses the same way, so not worth counting that up.