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Gennerik
05-26-2008, 07:39 AM
I'm writing this in an attempt to address a couple of things about the game. When playing a quest on Elite, I think the following rules should apply and the reasons behind those thoughts follow:

Randomized Traps - Traps should be completely randomized. I remember a developer saying that the reason why traps don't get completely randomized are because they are scripted to fit a dungeon to give it a certain feel. But I think by the time that you run a quest on Elite, you've pretty much gotten all the story out of it that you're going for. Players run Elite for more favor, more XP, or better treasure. So why not make us actually still have to worry about things in the quest, even if it breaks the feel of the dungeon or there's a quest that ends up full of traps. It may at least keep parties looking for some characters instead of saying "3 casters, 2 melees and a cleric are all we need for this quest" and going.
Randomized Monsters - In addition to simply scaling monsters past the point that they break, I think on Elite settings, quests should get a greater variety of monsters as well. Similar to the traps, running on Elite isn't about running the quest, it's about getting something out of the quest. If the average monster CR in an Elite quest is 8, why not see some actual CR 8 creatures instead of just CR 4 creatures scaled to CR 8. It will once again add more variety to quests and may keep people from simply charging ahead because they know what to expect.Any comments are welcome, as are any additional ideas. I'd just like to see at least portion of the game where things are always new, or at least less likely to be the same old thing.

sirgog
05-26-2008, 07:46 AM
I'd like these ideas, but it'd probably translate to less new content, as creating additional monsters and testing their behaviour takes more time than scaling up existing ones.

Borror0
05-26-2008, 08:41 AM
Traps should be completely randomized. I remember a developer saying that the reason why traps don't get completely randomized are because they are scripted to fit a dungeon to give it a certain feel. But I think by the time that you run a quest on Elite, you've pretty much gotten all the story out of it that you're going for.

Wrong, traps are not random because if they do it could render a quest uncompletable like a trap in front of the Shrine or at the quest's entrance, etc. As for traps being at a few random places, it'd take extra time to code it. If you want to have fun, go run Shroud or RwtD on Elite, you'll have fun and an hard time. Some quests are easy, even on Elite, some others are Hard. And it's alright like that.

And, quite honestly, I don't find "by the time that you run a quest on Elite, you've pretty much gotten all the story out of it that you're going for" to be an argument good enough to ruin the feel of the dungeon... but that's just me.


It may at least keep parties looking for some characters instead of saying "3 casters, 2 melees and a cleric are all we need for this quest" and going.

Traps to make a quest harder is alright, traps to get more invites to rogues is a bad one.If your rogue cannot get into a party, then improve. Because I know tons of insane rogues. Just become a skilled rogue. You made a trapmonkey, sad for you, it's not what this game needs.


Similar to the traps, running on Elite isn't about running the quest, it's about getting something out of the quest. If the average monster CR in an Elite quest is 8, why not see some actual CR 8 creatures instead of just CR 4 creatures scaled to CR 8. It will once again add more variety to quests and may keep people from simply charging ahead because they know what to expect.

Again, I don't find that to be a good argument.

How would be putting a bunch of Devils inside of PoP a good thing?! People will run it a few times, and then will know what to expect anyway. It's a waste of time for the Devs as it'll be explore in too little time. New quests are a better investment than this, at least in my opinion.

Gennerik
05-26-2008, 10:22 PM
Wrong, traps are not random because if they do it could render a quest uncompletable like a trap in front of the Shrine or at the quest's entrance, etc. As for traps being at a few random places, it'd take extra time to code it. If you want to have fun, go run Shroud or RwtD on Elite, you'll have fun and an hard time. Some quests are easy, even on Elite, some others are Hard. And it's alright like that.

And, quite honestly, I don't find "by the time that you run a quest on Elite, you've pretty much gotten all the story out of it that you're going for" to be an argument good enough to ruin the feel of the dungeon... but that's just me.

The funny thing is that short of a trap being at the entrance to a dungeon, nowhere actually makes a quest unable to be completed. That could easily be fixed by making a zone by the entrance that can't be trapped. As far as outside of a shrine, it you can get the stone close enough for a raise, you can pretty much get your rogue up if you needed one and they died by being in the right place and still not set off the trap. Short of being right on the shrine (again, easy to set so it doesn't happen) it really doesn't make things impossible.

As far as what Elite means, I'd rather see it add longevity to the quest than being just the same quest with harder monsters (that are still the same). There isn't a guarantee that randomizing things on Elite will actually break a quest, either. Just it could reduce the general flow of the quest from the initial design.


Traps to make a quest harder is alright, traps to get more invites to rogues is a bad one.If your rogue cannot get into a party, then improve. Because I know tons of insane rogues. Just become a skilled rogue. You made a trapmonkey, sad for you, it's not what this game needs.

I actually have only one character that can deal with traps, and he's primarily a wizard anyway so it doesn't hurt my invites at all. But I do have a problem with people knowing quests like they designed them and never even considering alternative character options because certain party make-ups have been tried and tested to run smoothly because there are no surprises. I could care less if Rogues get more invites because of the change. I'm trying to change the aspect of the quest where people know what's just 'round the corner all the time.


Again, I don't find that to be a good argument.

How would be putting a bunch of Devils inside of PoP a good thing?! People will run it a few times, and then will know what to expect anyway. It's a waste of time for the Devs as it'll be explore in too little time. New quests are a better investment than this, at least in my opinion.

Because it would be random, it wouldn't always just be a couple of devils in PoP. It may be a couple devils once, then the next time a beholder and some fire reavers, and the next time a stone golem and three clay golems. The point is that once again, players don't know what to expect. They know the general CR of an encounter to expect, but can't count on "1 cleric, 2 casters, and a blackguard to be next, so run for the guys in back once we turn the corner because they'll start casting spells on us". It would indeed take some programming overhead initially, but considering once we reach level 18, the next level cap increase doesn't require nearly as much work (you don't have brand new levels of spells to worry about), meaning that quests are probably going to be the main focus anyway. If you can put the same programming time into revamping every Elite quest in the game as you do when creating 2 or 3 new quests, the return on your time has the possibility of being much better than if you just release those 3 quests, expecially since with new classes comes running the old content again (because there won't be enough new content to allow the running of just new low-level quests).

GeneralDiomedes
05-26-2008, 10:50 PM
As much as you would think randomized traps would be cool, on Elite this is basically anti-zerg, anti-solo, anti-nonstandardgroup, anti-lowhp and ultimately anti-fun. Do I want to creep along every inch of a quest with a Rogue in front? No thanks.

Zenako
05-26-2008, 11:21 PM
Just create another option you could select on the quest start up screen.

Solo Normal Hard Elite Random

With the understanding that Random was based on some setting (hard perhaps with respect to content and mobs and traps) but that the mobs would come from a lot larger look up table, that traps would be scattered about and not in the same places, etc. Everything you just asked for. Now, wait a few months and see how often each setting each setting was run....

I would guess something like

Solo 5%, Normal 15%, Hard 15%, Elite 60% and Random 5% (maybe). That might be an indicator of how many people would really want that aspect to be in place. There are already some random elements to the game, certain rare mobs only spawn occasionally for example.

Borror0
05-26-2008, 11:52 PM
That being said, I'm still committed to building random traps and killing your characters in fun and creative ways!

Argue with them, not with me:



Ah, random traps again. Okay, so let me sum it up a bit. Yes we can do random traps. There are many post-launch quests that incorporate them. We're likely not going to go back to old quests and add them in because of the development time it would take away from new content.
We can do different random traps in one spot, but usually don't because many traps rely on a particular room or hallway setup which doesn't fit with many different trap configurations. Besides, I don't feel that a fire trap will surprise you any more than an acid trap, the second or third time you run the quest. Aside from that, if I randomized every trap in 4 different ways, it would take me 4 times as long, and you would get less content.
I prefer to place traps in many different places. If I do that, it almost guarantees that the first few runs will be fresh and new, since you won't be able to hit all the traps and learn their locations in one run. There's nothing I can do for you if you're running a quest with people who have run it a couple dozen times and happen to remember where traps can be. My goal is to at least carry you through your Normal, Hard, and Elite runs - and hopefully beyond.
Full and complete randomization is not going to happen to the degree and scope some of you wish. We need to build and script every trap. There's no procedural method for randomizing traps because our game relies so heavily on custom crafted content. We place traps with purpose. Sometimes it's to encourage a different path. Often, we place traps in areas we feel deserve more challenge and we want that challenge to exist all the time. I suppose fully random traps would be more likely if the game was 2-D, top down, and tile-based. Many other problems arise if everything were that random. You won't want to enter the dungeon only to find a fire jet blasting you in the face and killing you the moment you load in. I think we can all agree that would be frustrating and unnecessary.


I do have a problem with people knowing quests like they designed them and never even considering alternative character options because certain party make-ups have been tried and tested to run smoothly because there are no surprises.

Closed minds will always be closed minds. Don't try to change them, as you will be disapointed.


Because it would be random, it wouldn't always just be a couple of devils in PoP. It may be a couple devils once, then the next time a beholder and some fire reavers, and the next time a stone golem and three clay golems. The point is that once again, players don't know what to expect. They know the general CR of an encounter to expect, but can't count on "1 cleric, 2 casters, and a blackguard to be next, so run for the guys in back once we turn the corner because they'll start casting spells on us".

I doubt they can make it random, and if they do, it'd kill lots of dungeons. Sometimes, they're all about the feel.

If I like to re-run a quest, it's because I like the way it's build, I like the mobs they've chosen, etc. You're solution is far from perfect.


If you can put the same programming time into revamping every Elite quest in the game as you do when creating 2 or 3 new quests, the return on your time has the possibility of being much better than if you just release those 3 quests, expecially since with new classes comes running the old content again (because there won't be enough new content to allow the running of just new low-level quests).

Wrong, people will enjoy new quests over revamped one much more.

A lot of people will just get frustrated to have to kill undead in waterworks. If you skip a quest, it's for the mobs in it. If you do a quest, it's for the mobs in it. You'd simply see less Elite runs because it's less fun. Should their location inside the quest be random, I would see your point (even thoguh the effort would probabyl not worth the gain as it'd still remain very limited), but randoms mobs more kills content than anything else.

salmag
05-27-2008, 09:26 AM
On elite, I would not want to see different random mobs, but rather MORE mobs. Same enemies but more of them. Put more patrols in, more encounters.

As for the traps, I would rather see specific traps locales being randomized, i.e. a trap could be located in one of three spots, or two of three or all three, just not completely random.

Just my 2cps.

Borror0
05-27-2008, 10:03 AM
As for the traps, I would rather see specific traps locales being randomized, i.e. a trap could be located in one of three spots, or two of three or all three, just not completely random.

So... you want three times more spots to remember? Like TRD said, it'll take you a little more time to remember them, that's all.

Zenako
05-27-2008, 10:38 AM
everyone does remember that there were no "random" traps in D&D, only the fact that you probably only run a given dungeon complex once. So just like opening night on a new Mod, where no one KNOWS where everything is, you have to be somewhat cautious to avoid getting nailed. All those traps in D&D were exactly located and planned out. (except maybe Tomb of Horrors, but that module killed everyone anyway so it hardly counts...).

Just making some stuff Random does NOT make things better. Context needs to come into play.

salmag
05-28-2008, 05:39 PM
So... you want three times more spots to remember? Like TRD said, it'll take you a little more time to remember them, that's all.

Sure you can remember where they are located -

But when running the quest, the trap may or may not show up. As of right now, they are always in the same spot, over and over and over again. If it were three spots, you might get one or two or three to show up. IF your spot skill is high enough, you would know if it is there or NOT. It may be minor but it adds some element of randomness...

GlassCannon
05-28-2008, 05:46 PM
As much as you would think randomized traps would be cool, on Elite this is basically anti-zerg, anti-solo, anti-nonstandardgroup, anti-lowhp and ultimately anti-fun. Do I want to creep along every inch of a quest with a Rogue in front? No thanks.


Apparently some folks think having to waste 18 hours in a level 4 quest with level 6 characters and taking -100% XP for re-entry penalties is fun.

I enjoy laying waste to things, which is why I usually like level 7 and lower content(Exceptions: Stormcleave and Delera's, with Delera's being conditional due to the Shades phasing 95% of the time). After that point the game seems to get substantially more difficult(Not a bad thing but not a great thing either).

The difficulty increase has a lot to do with the Powerlevel gap and preferences on what content to run at level 8. It seems most want to venture out to Gianthold as a level 8. I really don't like that.

Borror0
05-28-2008, 07:18 PM
It may be minor but it adds some element of randomness...

You're right, but DDO dungeons are hand-made.

Meaning they will have to put them there, looking a time-spent versus replayability... not sure it's worth it. But then again, I'm not worknig at Turbine.

MrCow
05-28-2008, 07:25 PM
All I can say is that if you put in random enemies then you might randomly make the quest easy. Give me a random mindflayer in something like Faithful Departed to charm and suddenly the quest difficulty will randomly go down.

krud
05-29-2008, 09:41 AM
I don't think they should go back and redo all the old quests and make them random. Perhaps, some new random quests can be made, but i'd leave the old stuff alone. However, if xp and rewards are to be consistent, I really don't see these as turning out much different than the outdoor areas, i.e. sometimes you get a spawn, sometimes you don't, but after a while you still figure out the possible permutations.