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Riggs
05-20-2008, 05:31 AM
As has been posted in other threads, scales are used in more recipes than any other ingredient. Further, they are used in almost every single GOOD one.

Further still, scales drop far more rare than any other ingredients, including horns.

So in addition to having to run the shroud a bazillion times to get ingredients...People are sitting on piles of ingredients they cant use until they find more scales. I have enough horns to make a tier 3 all by itself, enough bones and almsot enough arrowheads, but I am stuck waiting to make a tier 3 because I am short scales. Short small scales, and short large scales.

I posted before about asking for a quartermaster on a 1-1 trade.

Otherwise something really should be done about the drop rate on scales. (And make both chests in part 5 ingredient chests).

Because really - not counting tier 2 upgrades, it takes far more grinding to get a tier 3 raid item than it did under the old glyph system, like 10 times more at least.

Running something 10 times to get a single item isnt all that bad. Running a quest 50 times or more on various characters to get a single item is ....well whats the word for grinding when you increase its magnitude exponentially? I dont think 'fun' is included in there.

Hvymetal
05-20-2008, 05:38 AM
Hmmm, been pretty lazy about running the shroud and actually crafting anything out there for now. Maybe I should trade mine while the getting is good:D

vyvy3369
05-20-2008, 06:22 AM
Further still, scales drop far more rare than any other ingredients, including horns.
If I had to guess, I'd say scales are probably dropping at the same rate as all the others, but as you said they're used more frequently. I haven't crafted in a while now, and looking over my list of ingredients across all 3 tiers scales are right in the middle of the pack in terms of how many of each I have.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-20-2008, 06:26 AM
Because really - not counting tier 2 upgrades, it takes far more grinding to get a tier 3 raid item than it did under the old glyph system, like 10 times more at least.

Running something 10 times to get a single item isnt all that bad. Running a quest 50 times or more on various characters to get a single item is ....well whats the word for grinding when you increase its magnitude exponentially? I dont think 'fun' is included in there.


There is a reason I don't have tier 3 upgrades for any of my chars....

Aspenor
05-20-2008, 07:32 AM
This is where I get lost.

I have 2 tier III and 3 tier II items, and I don't really feel I have even ground the Shroud that hard. Nothing like I did Wizking back in the day. I have something like 15 medium and 3 or 4 Large Splintered Horns.

I'm sitting on 2 Large Scales in waiting for my next tier III, mostly just waiting on Large Arrowheads of all things...

Am I just lucky?

Milolyen
05-20-2008, 07:44 AM
Because really - not counting tier 2 upgrades, it takes far more grinding to get a tier 3 raid item than it did under the old glyph system, like 10 times more at least.

Running something 10 times to get a single item isnt all that bad. Running a quest 50 times or more on various characters to get a single item is ....well whats the word for grinding when you increase its magnitude exponentially? I dont think 'fun' is included in there.

Your KIDDING right? Under old glyph system. One friend of mine ran dragon looking for the +6 wis helm for 2 of his clerics. He ran it 60 times ON EACH CLERIC and STILL never got the helm. That is 120 runs on dragon. Different friend ran Titan 35 times never got the Titan belt. Still another friend ran Dragon 50+ times before he got the SoS. DQ torq, I know of 3 casters that have ran that raid 30 + times looking for it. Just a few examples out of HUNDREDS I could give you where it took 20 + runs before they got what they wanted or never did get what they wanted. Also how many people have come on to the forums to complain about running something 60+ times before they got the raid loot they where really looking for?

I have ran the shroud to completion 21 times on my ranger now and about 10 times on my cleric. I have 2 teir three double shard items and a teir 2 item. Those items are EXACTLY what I wanted. I did not have to settle for the "mace" or "docent" instead of the "helm" from the dragon for cleric, get the Demon Scale from the DQ instead of the Torq, and I did not have to roll against anyone else for these items either.

This system by FAR is better than the raid loot systems of the past IMO. You just don't get the "instant gratification" of being suprised by it being in the chest but to get what you REALLY WANT it is by FAR a lot less grind for those of us that are not lucky enough to get the item we want in the first 5 runs of a raid.

Milolyen

*Note* if you run it to completion 50 times on various char's then you should have the larges to create atleast 3 double shard teir 3 items. That is IF you run it to completion. If you just do 1-3 or 1-4 then you have no room to complain because you are not completing it and if it was one of the other raids you would have NO CHANCE at raid loot where here you still got small and medium from 1-3 and a chance at large from 4.

stockwizard5
05-20-2008, 07:55 AM
As has been posted in other threads, scales are used in more recipes than any other ingredient. Further, they are used in almost every single GOOD one.

Almost every ingrediant is used in almost every item. What you are trying to say is some of the most popular recipes (at least for peoples 1st or 2nd tier 3 item) require large numbers of scales.

Further still, scales drop far more rare than any other ingredients, including horns.

This is false - we have collected over 2000 large ingrediants and this is simply not true - the drops rates are the same for all large ingrediants.

I posted before about asking for a quartermaster on a 1-1 trade.

Agreed with Quartermaster but a 3 for 1 similar to Dragon Relics might be more appropriate - otherwise whats the point of having different ingrediants?

Otherwise something really should be done about the drop rate on scales. (And make both chests in part 5 ingredient chests).

As above - the drop rate of ingrediants and scales is fine.

Because really - not counting tier 2 upgrades, it takes far more grinding to get a tier 3 raid item than it did under the old glyph system, like 10 times more at least.

I know many examples (e.g. Razzputin with 40 Titans and no belt) that contradict this. On average it only takes 9 runs to craft a tier 3 item of your choice (double upgrades closer to 20). No other raid has better odds to get the item you want.



See comments above ...

debo
05-20-2008, 08:04 AM
I have 10 large horns and have amassed those over the last two weeks. It seems like it is all I pull lately. Those 10 horns would have almost given me another tier 3 upgrade. You tell me if you think that is fair. And yea .. it's frustrating. I almost have enough to go to Turbine's office and stick one up each of their employees' ....?

Missing_Minds
05-20-2008, 09:32 AM
This is where I get lost.

I have 2 tier III and 3 tier II items, and I don't really feel I have even ground the Shroud that hard. Nothing like I did Wizking back in the day. I have something like 15 medium and 3 or 4 Large Splintered Horns.

I'm sitting on 2 Large Scales in waiting for my next tier III, mostly just waiting on Large Arrowheads of all things...

Am I just lucky?

I'd say lucky.

With a scale you can just about get double of any of the other ingrediants for it, save stone. That one still seems to be a one to one trade.

JFeenstra
05-20-2008, 10:09 AM
i've done around 70 completions across four chars

current have:

lighting 2 bow (24 larges- 5 scales)
mineral 2 maul (24 larges- 5 scales)
T2 positive bracers
T2 neg/pos goggles
T2 neg/pos sceptar
T2 earth/earth goggles X3
mineral 1 ss
lightning 1 ss

almost have enough large ingredients to upgrade the T2 pos bracers as well...

this leads me to believe that all ingredients drop just fine, although scales and stones are more useful than the others, that's for sure

haven't been doing a lot of 1-4 runs either, maybe 3-4 total, it's all about the completions if you want large ingredients

Milolyen
05-20-2008, 10:20 AM
There are 36 total combinations of shards. Each combination takes 12 ingredients. So if you where to create one shard of each possible combination you would need 432 ingredients. There are 6 different types of ingredients. If all where used equally you would need 72 of each however they are not all needed equally. You would need 90 scales, 78 stones, 72 arrows, 72 chains, 66 shrapnel and 54 bones. Now given they all drop at same rate by the time you get 432 ingredients you will have 72 of each type and have 6 extra shrapnel and 18 extra bones but be short by 6 stones and 18 scales. This is why it seems that scales and stones have less of a drop rate. People keep them because you generally need 2 or 3 per upgrade verses the 0 to 2 per bone.

Milolyen
*note* there is no shard that will require less than 2 scales and no shard that will require more than 2 bones.

tihocan
05-21-2008, 01:34 PM
Further still, scales drop far more rare than any other ingredients, including horns.
I doubt it, it seems to me that all ingredients have similar drop rates. If there were really big differences we would have noticed them globally.
Until now I got 6 scales, and 3 horns...

Riggs
05-26-2008, 04:48 AM
Auction house prices for large scales are at least triple of any other ingredient.

Every shroud run usually most of the group is looking for more scales.

It is great and all for some people who are luckier than others and loot more scales than other people - but saying "hey I looted more scales than you - so it must be a good system" is pretty selfish and petty.

I have looted 2-3 times as many of every other ingredient as scales. 15 large horns vs 6 large scales, and at least a dozen of every other ingredient.

Even a 2-1 trade at an NPC would be something, since horns were added 'by mistake', but never taken out because apparently it wasnt considered an issue that people would spent dozens of runs looting useless ingredients. I could make three tier 3 items right now from all the ingredients I have...except I actually cannot make any more because I need scales first. There is nothing so gratifying as spending 90 minutes forming, and running a raid to get a large horn for your effort. Kill a cr 29 pit fiend (covered in scales), and get nothing you can use in crafting.

Anyone who likes blind luck already has a great game to play- the lottery.

sirgog
05-26-2008, 05:25 AM
I concur that the drop rates are equal on each ingredient, but scales and stones are more scarce due to the requirement for 2 or 3 of each in all of the +DM; +EE, -OM, EDM and ADM recipies that are among the most popular things to craft.

Hopefully Mod 7 will introduce new recipies that use Horns and Arrows and Bones, and lay off the scales/stones.

Luthen
05-26-2008, 03:29 PM
As has been posted in other threads, scales are used in more recipes than any other ingredient. Further, they are used in almost every single GOOD one.

Further still, scales drop far more rare than any other ingredients, including horns.

So in addition to having to run the shroud a bazillion times to get ingredients...People are sitting on piles of ingredients they cant use until they find more scales. I have enough horns to make a tier 3 all by itself, enough bones and almsot enough arrowheads, but I am stuck waiting to make a tier 3 because I am short scales. Short small scales, and short large scales.

I posted before about asking for a quartermaster on a 1-1 trade.

Otherwise something really should be done about the drop rate on scales. (And make both chests in part 5 ingredient chests).

Because really - not counting tier 2 upgrades, it takes far more grinding to get a tier 3 raid item than it did under the old glyph system, like 10 times more at least.

Running something 10 times to get a single item isnt all that bad. Running a quest 50 times or more on various characters to get a single item is ....well whats the word for grinding when you increase its magnitude exponentially? I dont think 'fun' is included in there.

I have a few responses to this train of thought. First off I agree that all ingrediants should be of equal value and drop equally. Scales, Bones, Arrows, Chains, Shrapnel, etc. Just as an FYI I have 46 medium Shrapnel, 10 Medium Arrows, 39 Medium Chains, 2 Medium Sulfurious Stones, and 1 Medium Scale. That seems a bit off to me if you get my drift.

The next part is the odd way they spread this chest sorting out. For the purpose of ingrediants only there is one Tier 1 chest, 3 Tier 2 chests and 2 tier 3 chests. It would seem to me that taking the ingrediant chest in Part 2 of the Shroud and making that a Tier 1 ingrediant chest would even this all out making it 2 chests per tier of ingrediants.

My last part is in disagreement with you on a certain level. Having to run the Shroud a bunch of times to get enough tier 3 ingrediants (especially if you're making an Aspect combine in tier 3) is what it seems to be designed for. For example... I had a Tier 2 Bow, Tier 2 khopesh, 6 tier 2 Goggles all made before I crafted my Tier 2 bow into a Tier 3. So I was still getting loot and still upgrading characters AND still having enough extras to make sure guildies could get what they needed. So I am ok with the drop rate for Tier 3 ingrediants. Would I like them to be higher? yes. Do I( think that they really need to be higher? nope. Plenty to work on while you gather tier 3 ingrediants. But then again if you only have one character i can see how it's even more frustrating.

Luthen
05-26-2008, 03:30 PM
I concur that the drop rates are equal on each ingredient, but scales and stones are more scarce due to the requirement for 2 or 3 of each in all of the +DM; +EE, -OM, EDM and ADM recipies that are among the most popular things to craft.

Hopefully Mod 7 will introduce new recipies that use Horns and Arrows and Bones, and lay off the scales/stones.

My money is on horns being needed for all of the new craftable weapons/items.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Your KIDDING right? Under old glyph system.

The old glyph system did suck... I certainly get more items under the new raid loot system than I do in the shroud.


*Note* if you run it to completion 50 times on various char's then you should have the larges to create atleast 3 double shard teir 3 items. .

I have about 20 completions in total. By your standards that should put me up to at least 1 double shard tier 3 item and I'm not there yet. I barely have enough for a single shard T3, and that's only if I traded around 1:1 for what I have (I think I have 10 usable larges)

Either I'm unlucky or you're lucky. Every casual gamer I know seems to feel the T3 is barely possible and T3 double shard is impossible. There was always a chance at something great on every run the old way. Here you know you have to run A LOT to have a chance at anything. It's a forced grind if you want any loot. The other way you could get lucky the first time out. There is no way to have the same luck in this system.

Milolyen
05-27-2008, 10:04 AM
The old glyph system did suck... I certainly get more items under the new raid loot system than I do in the shroud.



I have about 20 completions in total. By your standards that should put me up to at least 1 double shard tier 3 item and I'm not there yet. I barely have enough for a single shard T3, and that's only if I traded around 1:1 for what I have (I think I have 10 usable larges)

Either I'm unlucky or you're lucky. Every casual gamer I know seems to feel the T3 is barely possible and T3 double shard is impossible. There was always a chance at something great on every run the old way. Here you know you have to run A LOT to have a chance at anything. It's a forced grind if you want any loot. The other way you could get lucky the first time out. There is no way to have the same luck in this system.

But are those items what you really wanted? My ranger has 21 completions and my cleric has around 10 completions. Between the 2 I have prolly done about 8 total 1-4 runs (verious mixture of only wanting to do 1-4 and failed completions). I have 2 tier 3 double shard items (the 2 I was wanting not settling for 4th or 5th choice because it dropped) and 1 teir 2. I have more than enough ingredients to make 2 mabye 3 more tier 2 items and have sold enough small and medium ingredients to make 2 or 3 more tier 2 items. Out of those 48 larges I used I did trade for 8 of them, so out of around 31 completions and 8 1-4 I looted 40 large ingredients and 10 large horns.

However yes if I was a lucky person I would prefer the chance at getting the raid loot via normal raids such as reaver. But fact of the matter is I am not. Back before the change to the random raid loot and for a short time after I ran DQ raid about 40 times looking to get the belt and goggles from there. After 40 runs I only seen the goggles drop once (f'en sorc won roll) and never even seen the belt drop while on my ranger. I did get loot on my ranger though ... he got gloves, bracers, armor, xbow,and other stuff he never used but not the 2 items I was wanting for him. I ran shroud to completion and got the 3 items I was really wanting, 1 = mana item/rezz clickie (over 80 runs for rezz ring and never gotten one), 2 = very good all purpose dmging bow (mineral 2 bow), 3 = hp item/perm blur (smoke 2 bracers). I also know of many others that have very similar experiences with the other raid loot items and as far as I am conserned I will take a raid loot system like the shroud over the others any day.

Milolyen

Gornin
05-27-2008, 01:04 PM
I have not been able to pull a small scale and only 1 small chain since the patch. Before the patch I was getting fairly equal drops and was able to get 3 of my capped characters to tier 2 items, and have been waiting to pull the 3 scales I need for my rogues' 1st upgrade. I have been running at least 1 shroud per night and cannot pull a scale on 4 characters.

Maybe just my luck, but I am hearing alot of complaints about the same thing.

esoitl
05-27-2008, 01:22 PM
has anyone thought that the drop rte is GLOBAL and not just character oriented??
sure, you may have been dealt 50 bones and 3 scales but someone else could have pulled 50 scales and 3 bones

until you can somehow provide concrete evidence that the drop rate is off on a global scale there is nothing to complain about here.... move along and find something else to complain about

ROVER
05-27-2008, 05:48 PM
After running the Shroud way too many times I would have to say the drop rate for the ingredients is well balanced, only problem is the actual recipes.
A 1-1 ingredient trader will never ever happen, because then the mix of ingredients that you get will become meaningless.
It would be great if they put a 3-1 trader, but do not think that is going to happen since we never got a dragon scale trader.
Maybe in the future new recipes will appear and the bones will be the most sought after ingredient.