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HumanJHawkins
05-16-2008, 11:20 AM
Thanks Turbine, and Eladrin for what you have said about crafting in Mod 7. But thanks also for not telling us what new greensteel will be available, etc. I hear a lot of people complaining over the most ridiculous of things... Splintered Horns don't do anything yet. Boo Hoo Hoo!

People also complain that splintered horn might be used to make new greensteel types.... Um... How is this a bad thing? You would rather they do nothing? You think because they are equivalent to large ingredients that you shouldn't have to use them for such a small thing? How about this for an explanation: A greensteel dwarven ax in the hands of a dwarf is already an uber weapon... If you want to craft one, you have to use much more rare and expensive ingredients to create it, to justify the added benefit. So, yes, you will have to use a large horn if you want a greensteel axe.

Then there is the ultra ******** "There better not be any axes (or rapiers, etc.) because I already made mine." Um... Yeah. That Kopesh you made that does 2x the damage of any other weapon in the game... Yeah, that's suddenly going to be worthless if axes come out. And it would be so traumatic to you that we should not add something that half the player base really wants.

Or, maybe they won't add Dwarven Axes... Maybe just battle axes... People will probably complain about that too, instead of being happy to have another option. Whatever.

Anyway, I want to say thanks to Turbine for making a cool game and adding as much as they can as fast as they can without totally unbalancing the game.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 01:06 PM
It's fair and logical since when MOD 6 was announced they told us, many a time, it was a prototype.

Just because people rushed to make what was percieved to be the best in the game at the time doesn't make it their fault when they introduce better things.

Also what happens if new mod 7 loot is better than what can be crafted are those of you who crafted stuff going to gripe they should have told us before we made our Green Steels?

My sorc has her tier two gloves for cha skills and mana and if something better comes along I might grind for it I might not. Did I grind to get a Skiver from the Necropolis. Nope, not worth my time.

I think I must be playing a different game then most becuase I am happy to get what I can and play within those constraints. Maybe it's because my first few DM's in PnP never ran Monty Haul campaigns that I understand that the best stuff isn't always for me. If I get something fine but I don't need it to play a character.

I also am glad that Turbine is trying to keep some of the MOD secret. Too many people used Risia to find the e ...words and not report them. I don't think it should see the light of day before release except in a closed testing environment and they should make sure said testers test the system properly.

Ryavin
05-16-2008, 01:14 PM
These forums have really turned me off to this game. They have made me realize that everyone wants to complain about everything. Me me me me me me me me me. It is always about ME. I will no longer come these forums as it has become a bunch of cry babies or people trying to flame others. What happened to the real discussions? For those of you that complain-be happy that you have this game in the first place and be thankful to the Devs for making this game as awesome as it is. If you want to complain then leave or make your own MMO if you are so damn smart-PEACE and feel free to flame me as this is the last time I will ever come to once great source of information. It is sad that the few have ruined these forums for the masses.

As for the previous poster Josh--get a life, this is just a game.

Lorichie
05-16-2008, 01:18 PM
I as well appreciate not having everything laid out for me. I dont want to know everything. Surprises are good. There is a ton of stuff already in the release notes that i do know. Having some things to look forward too is good.

this game isnt about me, it isnt about what i want. Its about everyone as a group, nothing is developed for one person, or even one group of people really, why would any one person gripe about they in particular dont like?

Yep, i must be insane too, and a cheerleader it seems, because im more worried about the entire group of gamers out there, not just me, or one particular facet of the game. Mod seven is huge, if you (Generic you) cant find something good in there somewhere, well you (Generic you) are worried about yourself only, and how can anyone possibly do anything to make you happy?

Rich

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 01:18 PM
I would just like to throw one more thing into the ring, according to some of the interviews, you will be able to UNDO what you have already done. So, if that is correct, and you get all your stuff back, when you undo your greensteel kHopesh and make your Greensteel (just for say...) Rapier, you can make it to exactly what you had on your kHopesh anyways. So not a big loss, just one run and you would already have everything ready. IF the undo does indeed give everything back.

So, Bring on the Dwarven Axes, and the Rapiers, I would rerun just to undo and redo a Rapier. Plus, by that logic, if everything that was crafted gets undone, you would even get the base ingredients for the current greensteel item back, so really nothing was lost. You got to use Khopesh while waiting for them to program in the Rapiers or Axes, I see it as a win/win.

Of course, that is IF the undo feature is indeed functioning correctly.

mgoldb2
05-16-2008, 01:22 PM
I also am glad that Turbine is trying to keep some of the MOD secret. Too many people used Risia to find the e ...words and not report them. I don't think it should see the light of day before release except in a closed testing environment and they should make sure said testers test the system properly.

I truly never understood this argument about risia most exploits it seem takes them months to fix and you worry about people knowing about them on release instead of 24-48 hours after it released?

I just have a hard time getting concern that people might have 30 days to exploit rather then 28 days................

On the other hand letting people get familiar with monks or new features and get to ask question about things that might be more confusing to learn then turbine thought before release so that they can be either clarify or fix to me is a good thing.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 01:30 PM
It's fair and logical since when MOD 6 was announced they told us, many a time, it was a prototype.

Just because people rushed to make what was percieved to be the best in the game at the time doesn't make it their fault when they introduce better things.

Nah, it's not alright.

Honestly, when they'll add new weapon, it'd be Really cool if they would also add deconstruction. If you save your money for months to buy something. Then the day after you bought it, it's on sale for half the price? You'd be ****ed off, eh? Well, in RL, it's to the advantage of the company to have kept it a secret: they've made money.

However, for Turbine, it's disadvantageous.

If they allow reconstruction, there will be people to get upset. You might disagree with their reasons and think differently, but they will still be upset. You may not even understand their reasons to be, but you cannot ignore the fact that there will be people upset over it. On top of it, there will be other people that will be happy over recovering ingrediants they used in early testing, or misreading an recipe. And, sooner or later, recovering ingrediants from a character you play no more.

It'll make some people happy, and those who, like you, don't mind of the way it is right now.. won't mind at all and might benefit from it one day.

It's more a question of if Turbine has money to put in that.


Also what happens if new mod 7 loot is better than what can be crafted are those of you who crafted stuff going to gripe they should have told us before we made our Green Steels?

Nah, I think no one would complain about that, if they do... they're whinners.


I think I must be playing a different game then most becuase I am happy to get what I can and play within those constraints.

Glad you like the way it is, I think the game is great, but could always use some improvement. Nothing is perfect.


Maybe it's because my first few DM's in PnP never ran Monty Haul campaigns that I understand that the best stuff isn't always for me. If I get something fine but I don't need it to play a character.

I don't see the analogy.


I also am glad that Turbine is trying to keep some of the MOD secret. Too many people used Risia to find the e ...words and not report them. I don't think it should see the light of day before release except in a closed testing environment and they should make sure said testers test the system properly.

I'm not. Surprises are nice, but the more they reveal, the more feedback they get, the better the game is.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 01:34 PM
So, Bring on the Dwarven Axes, and the Rapiers, I would rerun just to undo and redo a Rapier. Plus, by that logic, if everything that was crafted gets undone, you would even get the base ingredients for the current greensteel item back, so really nothing was lost. You got to use Khopesh while waiting for them to program in the Rapiers or Axes, I see it as a win/win.

I share the same PoV , but sadly:


We have not stated that there will be any form of deconstruction for green steel weapons at this time.

There will be many additions made to various systems over time, including the Shroud Green Steel system.


That said, if they allow recontruction, the Shards of Power should be lost. A small cost, to me.

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 01:36 PM
Hmmm, will research where I got my info from, will edit or report in a few. I know I saw that in an interview somewhere. BRB.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 01:38 PM
I truly never understood this argument about risia most exploits it seem takes them months to fix and you worry about people knowing about them on release instead of 24-48 hours after it released?

I just have a hard time getting concern that people might have 30 days to exploit rather then 28 days................

On the other hand letting people get familiar with monks or new features and get to ask question about things that might be more confusing to learn then turbine thought before release so that they can be either clarify or fix to me is a good thing.

I could see them releaseing monks on Risia early but not the quests. People will question the issues with a Monk since most of those things would be things that couldn't be taken advantage of after full release. The problem with releasing the quests would be that it is a PROVEN fact that exploits aren't reported. They are just used as an easy button for the first month or so after release.

I don't think this is a reflection on the populace as a whole but is a problem that needed a solution and the only real solution as of right now is to not release quests until the Module is released to the general public.

As for my experiences on Risia ... I downloaded it before the Orchard was released and went in and tried Inferno of the Damned and logged out and never went back in. Two guildies and I were three manning it and we discovered the basic idea of the quest and wiped so we laughed it off and logged out. I haven't went back into Risia since.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 01:39 PM
Hmmm, will research where I got my info from, will edit or report in a few. I know I saw that in an interview somewhere. BRB.

I know what interview you read. It was an interview talking about both module 7 & 8, the author was very confusing and very confused. He tagged some stuff we're seeing in module 7 for module 8, and vise versa. There was also mention of a deconstruction option in that article, but it was to pull some ingrediants from your normal loot to craft some weapons (for normal crafting, not Shroud crafting... if I'm any clear).

Chelsa
05-16-2008, 01:43 PM
These forums have really turned me off to this game. They have made me realize that everyone wants to complain about everything.

Welcome to the DDO forums. Not only do players complain about everything they also complain about nothing some times.

Look at the bright side. It is entertaining.:D

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 01:47 PM
If that is his stance, then he should proof read the interviews being done with Kate:

Players have more than just the wish spell to look forward to past module 7. In module 8 players will get to repay the denizens of Shavarath for their invasion when they’ll get to go to Shavarath themselves. And players can also look forward to the full implementation of the crafting system which will be broadly applied to equipment, not just weapons and will also feature a deconstruction/construction element where players can take apart old gear to make new stuff.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/1894/gameID/163/page/1

Although, that one says MOD 8, not mod 7 for deconstruction. BUT, none the less, She says it IS planned.

Mindspat
05-16-2008, 01:49 PM
Second of all,

Are you joking? This has to be one of the most inane posts I've ever read. How much does ******** pay you to be their cheerleader?

I was going to flame you although I've been asked to not do that anymore. Instead, I'll just report you for being the ultimate forum tool.

It's amazing how such a lack of decientcy is manifested on forums. Thankfully I understand these whiners are a very small sliver of the already existant vocal minority.

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 01:50 PM
Grrr, you beat me to it, LoL. Still, if it is incorrect, should they NOT do a retraction statement? Confusion can not be good. Letting it out that something is in developement, or planned to come out at one point, then deny it, without putting out a retraction, or even sending MMORPG an Email requesting they correct their interview, just seems like GOOD business to take care of any misquotes, especialy something so major.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 01:54 PM
Or, maybe they won't add Dwarven Axes... Maybe just battle axes... People will probably complain about that too, instead of being happy to have another option. Whatever.
You have managed to completely mischaracterize the complaint.

Look at it this way:
In module 4 you could turn in 25 dragonscales for some fancy +5 armor. What if in module 5 they changed it so you got +6 armor instead, but existing items weren't upgraded?

In module 5 you could turn in 8 tome pages for a dagger of +150 sp or a pick with 19-20 crits. What if in module 6 they changed it to be a +250 sp dagger or an 18-20 pick, but existing weapons didn't benefit?

Hopefully you can see the problem with this kind of behavior. In either of those cases, players who had already finished the collection and purchased their loot would be very upset to see other players get rewarded for being slower, as they get much better items for the same cost. That's especially the case if the devs didn't give any kind of warning that new better options were available.

If it turns out they add recipes for Green Steel Greataxes and Rapiers, that means that everyone who has already worked to get a Maul or Shortsword will have been wasting his large ingredients. (There are various steps Turbine could take to avoid that problem, such as creating a recipe to dismantle a green steel item back into the component Imbued Shards of Power)

bandyman1
05-16-2008, 01:59 PM
I was going to flame you although I've been asked to not do that anymore. Instead, I'll just report you for being the ultimate forum tool.

It's amazing how such a lack of decientcy is manifested on forums. Thankfully I understand these whiners are a very small sliver of the already existant vocal minority.


You do realize that this post is just as reportable and infractable, correct?

ROTFLMAO, I love it when peeps are so pompus that they overlook that.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 02:02 PM
Nah, it's not alright.

Honestly, when they'll add new weapon, it'd be Really cool if they would also add deconstruction. If you save your money for months to buy something. Then the day after you bought it, it's on sale for half the price? You'd be ****ed off, eh? Well, in RL, it's to the advantage of the company to have kept it a secret: they've made money.

However, for Turbine, it's disadvantageous.

If they allow reconstruction, there will be people to get upset. You might disagree with their reasons and think differently, but they will still be upset. You may not even understand their reasons to be, but you cannot ignore the fact that there will be people upset over it. On top of it, there will be other people that will be happy over recovering ingrediants they used in early testing, or misreading an recipe. And, sooner or later, recovering ingrediants from a character you play no more.

It'll make some people happy, and those who, like you, don't mind of the way it is right now.. won't mind at all and might benefit from it one day.

It's more a question of if Turbine has money to put in that.


I can see the deconstruction arguement but there should be a cost involved. You did use the item and get a benefit from it. I said in a different thread, might even have been on my guild website, that I could see a return of 2/3 to 3/4 of the input ingredients, and a depleted energy cell as a fair return value. Then you'd need to get the rest of the ingredients needed for your new item, replenish the energy cells and get the appropriate shards before you could make the new item. I mean did you not get a benefit from using the item for the time you had it before you deconstructed it?

I'm also not ignoring that people will be upset either way this turns out. I just don't understand how people are saying that if they add the new recipes they have decieved everyone. They haven't ... the system was a prototype. Meaning it may or may not have been the final system...

As for my statement:
Maybe it's because my first few DM's in PnP never ran Monty Haul campaigns that I understand that the best stuff always for me. If I get something fine but I don't need it to play a character.

This game gives better loot than any Pen and Paper game I have ever played. I came to this game to be able to experience DnD on a computer with other people playing it along with me instead of just playing alone against the AI of the game. I was amazed at how easily I got magic items. I had played a few PC games before DDO but none of them kept my interest. I've been playing DDO for 2 years now and can't see myself playing the old style games anymore. My game time is more about the people than the loot. The loot is nice don't get me wrong but it's secondary to the fun of walking into an instance with up to 12 people to complete a common goal.

I guess my whole point in these discussions is really "You were given a prototype system, Turbine announced it as such, and now when the prototype is being updated (notice the word same as any technology/manufacturer would use) certain posters are throwing a tantrum that what was left out of the first draft is now being added."

We've asked for other Green Steel Blanks and we may be getting the ones we want, we may not. Have I been very vocal about there not being scimitars for my Paladin. No I've said it a few times. If they add them great if not oh well. Since when has any raid had the variety of loot come out of it as the shroud. Most raids have how many named items as a reward? Now how many items can be crafted in the shroud. Are we looking a gift horse in the mouth? Most likely.

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 02:03 PM
But he COULD edit his, and change it slightly, then send in a complaint for des cube. LoL!

GrayOldDruid
05-16-2008, 02:05 PM
I think I must be playing a different game then most becuase I am happy to get what I can and play within those constraints. Maybe it's because my first few DM's in PnP never ran Monty Haul campaigns that I understand that the best stuff isn't always for me. If I get something fine but I don't need it to play a character.

I also am glad that Turbine is trying to keep some of the MOD secret. Too many people used Risia to find the e ...words and not report them. I don't think it should see the light of day before release except in a closed testing environment and they should make sure said testers test the system properly.

The problem is that many people play the game with "Toons" and not "Characters." Yeah, its a different playstyle. "Toon" players are only interested in numbers and uber-loot, shortest completion time, higher kill-count, etc, etc, ad nauseous (sp meant that way). "Character" players are happy playing, even without all the 'top-level' loot and uber-numbers on stats and skills. I mostly PUG and some of the fun is taken out of the game because too many people zerg and don't appreciate me occasionally speaking "in character" while they are on their "run" of the quest. I still do it some anyways, because I like it. Mostly, I keep quite and do most of my "Character" via movements and stuff and keep it to myself. Tweek is my spastic Fighter and I will run ahead, stop, run back, jump up and down, run in a circle and say "Lets killz them!!" or "Who I need kill now?"

"Toon" players want to know everything in advance so they can plan out their perfect numbers and calculate the best advantage they can get. I am happy not knowing and being pleasantly surprised to find a cool item (and not knowing that it is not the most uber-whatever in this mod). My Ranger crafted his greensteel bow how he wanted it to be... not necessarily that it was the best damage-dealing against current mobs. But its his style.

... and yes, Min/Maxers in PnP aggrevated me too. Which is why I don't have a PnP game going right now - and also why I like indie rpgs like "The Shadow of Yesterday"

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 02:06 PM
The problem is that many people play the game with "Toons" and not "Characters." Yeah, its a different playstyle. "Toon" players are only interested in numbers and uber-loot, shortest completion time, higher kill-count, etc, etc, ad nauseous (sp meant that way). "Character" players are happy playing, even without all the 'top-level' loot and uber-numbers on stats and skills. I mostly PUG and some of the fun is taken out of the game because too many people zerg and don't appreciate me occasionally speaking "in character" while they are on their "run" of the quest. I still do it some anyways, because I like it. Mostly, I keep quite and do most of my "Character" via movements and stuff and keep it to myself. Tweek is my spastic Fighter and I will run ahead, stop, run back, jump up and down, run in a circle and say "Lets killz them!!" or "Who I need kill now?"

"Toon" players want to know everything in advance so they can plan out their perfect numbers and calculate the best advantage they can get. I am happy not knowing and being pleasantly surprised to find a cool item (and not knowing that it is not the most uber-whatever in this mod). My Ranger crafted his greensteel bow how he wanted it to be... not necessarily that it was the best damage-dealing against current mobs. But its his style.

... and yes, Min/Maxers in PnP aggrevated me too. Which is why I don't have a PnP game going right now - and also why I like indie rpgs like "The Shadow of Yesterday"

I disagree, that is NOT always the case.

I use the word TOON because it is simply easier and more understood throughout. I RP many of my "Toons" and enjoy playing them as such. I just disagree with your statement, politely, But I do.

Lizardgrad89
05-16-2008, 02:18 PM
You have managed to completely mischaracterize the complaint.

Look at it this way:
In module 4 you could turn in 25 dragonscales for some fancy +5 armor. What if in module 5 they changed it so you got +6 armor instead, but existing items weren't upgraded?

In module 5 you could turn in 8 tome pages for a dagger of +150 sp or a pick with 19-20 crits. What if in module 6 they changed it to be a +250 sp dagger or an 18-20 pick, but existing weapons didn't benefit?

Hopefully you can see the problem with this kind of behavior. In either of those cases, players who had already finished the collection and purchased their loot would be very upset to see other players get rewarded for being slower, as they get much better items for the same cost. That's especially the case if the devs didn't give any kind of warning that new better options were available.

If it turns out they add recipes for Green Steel Greataxes and Rapiers, that means that everyone who has already worked to get a Maul or Shortsword will have been wasting his large ingredients. (There are various steps Turbine could take to avoid that problem, such as creating a recipe to dismantle a green steel item back into the component Imbued Shards of Power)

I can't imagine anything destroying the RP aspect of the game more than "crafting do-overs".

gpk
05-16-2008, 02:20 PM
The problem is that many people play the game with "Toons" and not "Characters." Yeah, its a different playstyle. "Toon" players are only interested in numbers and uber-loot, shortest completion time, higher kill-count, etc, etc, ad nauseous (sp meant that way). "Character" players are happy playing, even without all the 'top-level' loot and uber-numbers on stats and skills. I mostly PUG and some of the fun is taken out of the game because too many people zerg and don't appreciate me occasionally speaking "in character" while they are on their "run" of the quest. I still do it some anyways, because I like it. Mostly, I keep quite and do most of my "Character" via movements and stuff and keep it to myself. Tweek is my spastic Fighter and I will run ahead, stop, run back, jump up and down, run in a circle and say "Lets killz them!!" or "Who I need kill now?"

"Toon" players want to know everything in advance so they can plan out their perfect numbers and calculate the best advantage they can get. I am happy not knowing and being pleasantly surprised to find a cool item (and not knowing that it is not the most uber-whatever in this mod). My Ranger crafted his greensteel bow how he wanted it to be... not necessarily that it was the best damage-dealing against current mobs. But its his style.

... and yes, Min/Maxers in PnP aggrevated me too. Which is why I don't have a PnP game going right now - and also why I like indie rpgs like "The Shadow of Yesterday"

Oh come on, enough with the RP holier-than-thou attitude.
If you wanna roleplay and speak "in character" noone is stopping you from saying "thou" and adding "ast" and "eth" to the end of verbs, but take off your RP glasses and look at the bigger picture.

If a dwarf would have much preffered a greataxe (which incidentally goes with RPing) but crafted a maul instead, why should he/she be punished for it? It's not as if there are tons of quests where he got to "use" the crafted maul (except for maybe mineral2 vs PF). If other weapon types had been announced before people might have waited, and if they were planned they what was the point of not having them available since day 1 of Mod6?
You're honestly comparing a Ranger bow to the different melee weapon types?

Deconstructing at least to the imbued shards is a fair way to allow someone to "reforge" their weapon.

You can roleplay with an inferior weapon, noone cares, but if others would much rather use the superior rapier to a shortsword, what's the harm in letting them magically de-reconstruct/reforge ?

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 02:21 PM
The problem is that many people play the game with "Toons" and not "Characters." Yeah, its a different playstyle. "Toon" players are only interested in numbers and uber-loot, shortest completion tim
No. Those players who role-play a "character" would like to be able to use in-character information to direct the choices made by the character.

If a dwarf barbarian has 24 large ingredients and is thinking about building a Mineral 2 Maul, he should be able to decide based on things his character knows. He shouldn't have to be playing guessing games with the developer posts as to if a new item will come out at the end of the month and obsolete what he makes today.

gpk
05-16-2008, 02:23 PM
I can't imagine anything destroying the RP aspect of the game more than "crafting do-overs".

Why destroy the RP aspect?
Bring another blank greensteel rapier to the final altar with your crafted shortsword and have it magically reforged into a rapier.
Heck bring it to Jaidene with the base ingredients, pay her a ton of plats and let her reforge it for you.

There are tons of reforging instances in all fantasy settings, I didn't hear people complain to Tolkien :rolleyes:

You're ruining your own RPing with your toon-hatred.

Coldin
05-16-2008, 02:23 PM
I can't imagine anything destroying the RP aspect of the game more than "crafting do-overs".

Huh?

It's magic! I made this sword really cool by putting it into this mysterious machine along with some other odd things. Strangely enough, I put my sword back into the machine with some other items, and it came back out the same as it was before and returned a few of my previous ingredients.

It only destroys RP if you let it.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 02:25 PM
I can't imagine anything destroying the RP aspect of the game more than "crafting do-overs".
Tell me, how many times did you kill Arraetrikos and defeat the armies of Shavarath "for one thousand years" on your way to crafting an item?

Exactly how did that amount of quest repetition encourage roleplaying?

ahpook
05-16-2008, 02:35 PM
You have managed to completely mischaracterize the complaint.

Look at it this way:
In module 4 you could turn in 25 dragonscales for some fancy +5 armor. What if in module 5 they changed it so you got +6 armor instead, but existing items weren't upgraded?

In module 5 you could turn in 8 tome pages for a dagger of +150 sp or a pick with 19-20 crits. What if in module 6 they changed it to be a +250 sp dagger or an 18-20 pick, but existing weapons didn't benefit?

Very well stated. Of course, the complaint is still based on ignorance of whether a rapier can b crafted and if so what it takes to craft one. So some of the bombast that is present is laughable until we know more.


If it turns out they add recipes for Green Steel Greataxes and Rapiers, that means that everyone who has already worked to get a Maul or Shortsword will have been wasting his large ingredients. (There are various steps Turbine could take to avoid that problem, such as creating a recipe to dismantle a green steel item back into the component Imbued Shards of Power)
As long as the recipe factors in the current process, there is no need to deconstruct to get the desired results for people who have items. For example, if the recipe for a rapier is to

craft a GS weapon,
upgrade it to tier 2 (or 3)
put the tier 2 weapon into the altar with a medium horn (or large horn) plus other stuff

then the recipe works without breaking anything for players who already have crafted items. New crafting players get no advantage because they still have to go through the same steps as Mod 6 crafters. This recipe is just as likely for rapiers and axes as putting horns into the meridia altar to make a blank.

Raiderone
05-16-2008, 02:35 PM
I look at it this way. If better GreenSteel Weapons are available, then I'll just start over. The hardest part is the third tier.

It's a fact of life, good things come to those that wait. My ranger is just fine with his Khopesh. Now my figther,
sure I'd like to have that Bastard Sword but went with the Longsword. Whatever happens, I'll make the best of it.

Eventually I'm guessing that all weapons or most of them will become craftable. Hey I didn't like that Dragon Armor
was a waste of time for my Strength build Ranger, But I got over it.
I'm not complaining, only pointing out that at times not everything suits your needs.

My rogue has a greensteel shortsword, would've loved a rapier. BUt I'm not gonna complain when it comes out.
Matter of fact, i'll start on it right away. It never hurts to have two or three weapons.

I do wish that Turbine would give us more information. But It's not gonna cause me to leave

akla_thornfist
05-16-2008, 02:40 PM
me hates secrets, tell me all there is to know now please.

mgoldb2
05-16-2008, 02:44 PM
I could see them releaseing monks on Risia early but not the quests. People will question the issues with a Monk since most of those things would be things that couldn't be taken advantage of after full release. The problem with releasing the quests would be that it is a PROVEN fact that exploits aren't reported. They are just used as an easy button for the first month or so after release.


I never said that don’t go on but my main point was it only takes 24-48 hours to find exploits for those that actually looking. The difference between them knowing about it for 30 days vs 28 days is to minor for me to worry about.

You make it sound like people would not know about exploits if it was not on test server when the reality is that exploits was found almost as fast in mod 1 before test server even existed.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 02:48 PM
Very well stated. Of course, the complaint is still based on ignorance of whether a rapier can b crafted and if so what it takes to craft one. So some of the bombast that is present is laughable until we know more.
True, it is a pre-emptive complaint based on what the devs appear to be doing. In that way, it serves as an early warning to them against making a mistake.

The simplest and easiest way for them to add new green steel weapon choices would be to have those weapons be created and enchanted in exactly the same way current ones are, which would mean a lot of players would have wasted large ingredients. Other approaches (such as deconstruction or polymorphing one weapon into another) could avoid the problem, but would also require some more technical effort by the devs.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 02:53 PM
If a dwarf would have much preffered a greataxe (which incidentally goes with RPing) but crafted a maul instead, why should he/she be punished for it? It's not as if there are tons of quests where he got to "use" the crafted maul (except for maybe mineral2 vs PF). If other weapon types had been announced before people might have waited, and if they were planned they what was the point of not having them available since day 1 of Mod6?
You're honestly comparing a Ranger bow to the different melee weapon types?


I hear a lot of people crafting items specifically to kill the pit fiend ... well those items should be good against any devil. Seems to me a lot of mod 6 had devils and the like in or around it. Running with the Devils, Ritual Sacrifice, the Vale and the Shroud all have enough devils for the items to be of use in them. Also if your doing any good or elemental damages I bet they tear into the trash (non elemental resisted) enemies all throughout the game. Notice I can't say so because I read the release notes and followed the discussion about crafting and saw there wasn't an weapon any of my characters of appropriate level would use. I concentrated on my arcanes which could make a wearable item that would benefit them.

As for the arguement that you aren't getting to use the maul.... why did you make it if you weren't going to use it? I think a lot of the arguement is that it isn't the weapon you always use. Has there ever really been any raid weapon that is used 100% of the time? Closest I know of would be Sword of Shadows or Cloudburst (greatswords). Again I also want to ask does any raid drop a weapon of every weapon type available? The answer is no. Why should the shroud?

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 02:58 PM
Again I also want to ask does any raid drop a weapon of every weapon type available? The answer is no. Why should the shroud?
That rhetorical question bears no relationship to any topic under discussion here. At best it is a non sequitur, at worst a strawman.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 02:59 PM
I never said that don’t go on but my main point was it only takes 24-48 hours to find exploits for those that actually looking. The difference between them knowing about it for 30 days vs 28 days is to minor for me to worry about.

You make it sound like people would not know about exploits if it was not on test server when the reality is that exploits was found almost as fast in mod 1 before test server even existed.


I know the exploits will probably still be found and used until they are fixed. But as a premptive strike against it I accept Turbine not releasing quests early.

dragonoffrost
05-16-2008, 03:02 PM
That rhetorical question bears no relationship to any topic under discussion here. At best it is a non sequitur, at worst a strawman.

A precedent has been set by previous raids.... Why should crafting of loot mean that the precedent is thrown out?

Merkinsal
05-16-2008, 03:50 PM
A precedent has been set by previous raids.... Why should crafting of loot mean that the precedent is thrown out?

I would guess that the devs have found the crafting to be so popular that they want to expand the features so more players will benefit and spend more time playing. However, as pointed out before, if I built my greensteel dagger one way, the only way not to be penaltized would be to let me get my ingrediants back so I am on the same playing field as someone crafting for the first time.

Running for ingrediants has been far more effective at increasing the time spend playing than granting special loot every 20 runs, one every three days.

After all, the devs have to have players playing to stay in business.

I know this is all pretty obvious and has been said before. Having said that, I for one think the crafting adds something to the game but this is not for everyone. I know many players who have no desire to grind for ingrediants and do not. Personally, I hope this goes not gimp them for content later in the game just because they don't have that green steel weapon or item. If in later levels this game turns into one designed for the grinder we will be much worse off. Currently, I do not have to collect 8 tome pages or shield pieces to be able to play well. Someday, that 3rd upgrade dagger will look about as good as a +1 returning adamantine dagger does now. I would place money on that and I only bet on sure things.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 03:58 PM
Grrr, you beat me to it, LoL. Still, if it is incorrect, should they NOT do a retraction statement? Confusion can not be good. Letting it out that something is in developement, or planned to come out at one point, then deny it, without putting out a retraction, or even sending MMORPG an Email requesting they correct their interview, just seems like GOOD business to take care of any misquotes, especialy something so major.

They'd need someone working 24h/day to correct Kate's "misquotes".

Every speech she gives, every interview... there,s something wrong! Oh, and I dislike the way she reprents the game.
Not representative.


I mean did you not get a benefit from using the item for the time you had it before you deconstructed it?

Yes, but don't you think the Shards themselves would be enough? Got to get one Shard of Power, one shard of Greater Power and one or two Shard of Supreme Power. Still some effort, and for the pain it was to grind for the tier 3 item, forcing more grinding would just be pain mean. I say, cells and shards are enough of a cost, to me.


I just don't understand how people are saying that if they add the new recipes they have decieved everyone.

False, no one used the word everyone, ever! (Well there might have but I didn't... and wouldn't.)


They haven't ... the system was a prototype. Meaning it may or may not have been the final system...

Doesn't mean they should try to please their customer.

"Oh, you guys just bought our lastest software. It was a beta, so if it totally burnt your hardware and costed you a few hundreds... it's not our fault, it was a prototype.":rolleyes:


I guess my whole point in these discussions is really "You were given a prototype system, Turbine announced it as such, and now when the prototype is being updated (notice the word same as any technology/manufacturer would use) certain posters are throwing a tantrum that what was left out of the first draft is now being added."

Your analogy is a bad one.

If I had software 1.0 and they upgrade to 1.1, then I will have 1.1 unless I want to stay with 1.0. As a result, if they add dwarven axes... well maybe my dwarf would enjoy one over his longsword.;)


Most raids have how many named items as a reward?

How many raids do you have to run multiple times to get some reward? Oh.. right...:rolleyes:


Now how many items can be crafted in the shroud.

That was the intend with the Shroud. They wanted us to customize our raid loot. Can't we customize our raid loot furthermore?!


Again I also want to ask does any raid drop a weapon of every weapon type available? The answer is no. Why should the shroud?

Ever heard the sentence: "Customize your raid loot"?! Because that's how they presented the Shroud...:rolleyes:

Laith
05-16-2008, 04:00 PM
A precedent has been set by previous raids.... Why should crafting of loot mean that the precedent is thrown out?precedent used to be that they didn't add raid loot after the raid was released. ;)

lets say if suddenly tomorrow, the reaver had a chance to drop +4 tomes.
"Sweet", you say, "more plusses!"
...unfortunately the guy next to you ran it 80 times for his +3, where if he would have waited X days, it'd be a +4.
The problem is that suddenly the exact same effort nets a larger reward.


If the new raid happened to have all these base weapons with a new set of effects, i doubt anyone would care: it's a different grind with different rewards. This is generally how it works each mod with raid loot, statics, etc.

Grinds are fine, but when you give time for people to finish the grind, only to later give them a reason to reset it: you get people upset. Rightfully so afterall, here we had a fair race going, and you've up and moved the finishline.

ENGRAV0
05-16-2008, 04:03 PM
I can accept that Borror0.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 04:32 PM
I can accept that Borror0.

I doubt anyone would disagree.

HumanJHawkins
05-16-2008, 05:16 PM
You have managed to completely mischaracterize the complaint.

<CUT>In module 5 you could turn in 8 tome pages for a dagger of +150 sp or a pick with 19-20 crits. What if in module 6 they changed it to be a +250 sp dagger or an 18-20 pick, but existing weapons didn't benefit?

<CUT>If it turns out they add recipes for Green Steel Greataxes and Rapiers, that means that everyone who has already worked to get a Maul or Shortsword will have been wasting his large ingredients. (There are various steps Turbine could take to avoid that problem, such as creating a recipe to dismantle a green steel item back into the component Imbued Shards of Power)

Thanks for clarifying the issue. I still disagree with your conclusions, but you state the argument much better than most.

I see it a little differently... I see it as Turbine adding something sweet to the loot tables. Say, for example, that I ran Shrieking mines 100+ times in search of a Res Ring, and I finally got one. Does that mean that Turbine should not introduce Mod 6 crafting that allows people to craft an item with an even better form of ressurection along with other benefits? (And I might add, since this is a tier 2 benefit, it is FAR FAR easier to craft a res item than it is to pull one from Shrieking mines.

This is essentially the same argument people make when a dramatic improvement is made to technology... If you buy a $300 video card this month, you might be inclined to get mad if the company releases an improved version that is twice as good for the same price a month later. But that emotion, while normal in humans, is illogical and unjustified.

Anyone who thought it was worth spending hours in the shroud (hopefully fun hours, I might add) to get their crafted shortsword, has paid what they agreed to pay, and gotten what they agreed to get. Offering a better deal to the next guy is the prerogative of the vendor.

Why Turbine should NOT allow deconstructing, unless there is a great cost associated with it: This is raid loot... Allowing people to re-craft is equivalent to letting someone exchange their Madstone shield for a Stormreaver's Napkin. There should be risk involved. This is the highest level of demonic magic... It should have been randomly failing and eating ingredients from the start.

In short, it is not the right of every player to have every piece of the mathematically best gear in every case. If you play today seeking today's reward, you should not feel slighted when someone plays tomorrow and gets tomorrow's reward instead. Especially when you also have the option of playing tomorrow for that same reward.

mgoldb2
05-16-2008, 05:21 PM
I see it a little differently... I see it as Turbine adding something sweet to the loot tables. Say, for example, that I ran Shrieking mines 100+ times in search of a Res Ring, and I finally got one. Does that mean that Turbine should not introduce Mod 6 crafting that allows people to craft an item with an even better form of ressurection along with other benefits? (And I might add, since this is a tier 2 benefit, it is FAR FAR easier to craft a res item than it is to pull one from Shrieking mines.

Here the difference. People don’t care if they introduce a new grind that make an old grind no longer worthwhile. It when they make a change that encourages you to do an old grind that you thought you were done with that people get annoyed.

Guildmaster_Kadish
05-16-2008, 05:43 PM
Here the difference. People don’t care if they introduce a new grind that make an old grind no longer worthwhile. It when they make a change that encourages you to do an old grind that you thought you were done with that people get annoyed.

Precisely.

I wouldn't care a whole lot if the new raid(s) had better weapons in them than I have right now. Every player would be on even footing--no one would have an advantage over someone else. But if they added scimitars to the old raid, when I've already made a radiance II longsword, that just isn't right--players who did the raid more because they wanted that item more are penalized, while those who didn't care as much about the weapon and/or didn't do the raid as much are unaffected--they can make a better weapon for the same cost as the other player because they took longer to do it. That, to me, is intrinsically wrong.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 05:43 PM
Why Turbine should NOT allow deconstructing, unless there is a great cost associated with it: This is raid loot... Allowing people to re-craft is equivalent to letting someone exchange their Madstone shield for a Stormreaver's Napkin. There should be risk involved. This is the highest level of demonic magic... It should have been randomly failing and eating ingredients from the start.

Ok, do you have any idea of how much time it takes to get 22 large ingrediants?

There tons of reasons to allow deconstruction. You cannot compare the Shroud to any other raid, as the Shroud is unique in his way to give raid loot. Other raids' loot is random, this is not. You spend X time to gather the ingrediants to make an item. Whether you want to make a shortsword or a rapier, it'll take the same amount of time. The only reason to craft one item over another is that you think this one will be more beneficial to you.

It's slap in the face if Turbine does not allow deconstruction.

Let's not forgot those who took one for the team or misread the source when crafting... they'd be happy too.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 05:45 PM
This is essentially the same argument people make when a dramatic improvement is made to technology... If you buy a $300 video card this month, you might be inclined to get mad if the company releases an improved version that is twice as good for the same price a month later. But that emotion, while normal in humans, is illogical and unjustified.
An improvement to technology means the supplier has gained a capability he didn't have before. At first he didn't know how to make the better graphics card, and now he does. All consumers of technology are aware of the march of progress- sometime it's even formalized as Moore's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moores_Law)- so they expect better products to come out after their purchase.

The situation in a game is not like that, because there was no limitation on their ability before. They could have added axes and rapiers immediately with module 6, or anytime later. It's just a matter of whether or not they wanted to- there is no way to interpret it as something new they've learned how to do.

The enchanted Green Steel items are the raid loot from mod6, and adding new, superior weapon choices means improving the loot from that raid. Improving the loot from an existing quest is generally a bad idea, because it distracts attention from the new quests introduced in the next module. (Notice that Turbine has been very reluctant to improve old raid loot, even for painfully sucktastic items like Ruby-crusted Gauntlets and Nullcloth Gown). But, there are some possible good reasons to do so:

1. The quest got harder, so the loot is improved to match the new difficulty. (There's been no indication that Shroud will get harder, except by removing exploits that shouldn't be used as the basis of comparison anyway)

2. The original loot was mistakenly too poor, and the new items will represent a better and fairer reward for the quest. If that is the case, then the change is a kind of bug-fix, and effort should be made so that the fix is retroactive to characters who already got rewards from that quest. In addition, since a change for that purpose is essentially an admission of failure, the honest thing would be to have announced the possibility of eventual changes to the playerbase earlier, so they can make a more informed decision on spending their ingredients.

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum on the lines of "Why are there khopeshes but no axes or rapiers? Why would the devs do this, it doesn't make sense!?" A developer could have easily jumped into any of them and mentioned that the selection of weapon-types had perhaps been mistaken, and was under review for the future.


As for the issue of retroactivity (like the possibility of changing an existing tier 3 weapon from a maul to an axe), look at the Existential Stalemate effect for a comparison. When module 6 was release, a neg-pos item gave you +4 wisdom. That was a mistake, and it has been changed to +6... and they have announced a way to upgrade existing loot to the correct value in the future. This indicates the devs understand that if they add new superior choices, players who previously paid ingredients for the old bad version will be happier if they're allowed to get the improved choice without re-spending ingredients from scratch.

And make no mistake- nearly everyone who has a green steel maul or shortsword would have prefered a greataxe or rapier instead. Those additions (if they happen, which has only been remotely hinted at) would be definitively superior to the existing items for nearly every purpose.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 05:53 PM
You cannot compare the Shroud to any other raid, as the Shroud is unique in his way to give raid loot. Other raids' loot is random, this is not.
There is a kind of a comparison you can make, which has already been mentioned in this thread. Basically, the other raids have two ways of delivering loot: the special chest in the raid, and the 20th completion rewards. Most of the loot-output from a raid comes from the chest, and that is not similar to how The Shroud works, because it is stateless. That is, the dice are rolled on the loot table each 3 days when you finish the raid, and you either get the item or you don't. If not, you try again later.

But the 20th completion reward is something you accumulate over time, which is similar to how large ingredients are collected over time. The same problem could occur to both: if Turbine went and added new, superior loot options to Reaver's Fate, then everyone who had recently got their 20th and picked an old item would be understandably upset. It would mean their characters were actually worse off for having played the game; and if they had taken a break from raiding that mission then they'd be in better position to do a few more runs and get better items from the 20th reward.

As a simple rule of thumb, punishing player characters for playing your game is a bad idea for a game designer.

Clearly, the DDO devs generally do not increase the quality of loot drops from old raids, because they understand the above reasoning. Hopefully they will follow the logic through if any new loot choices are added to the Shroud, and make them somehow retroactive.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 06:02 PM
Why Turbine should NOT allow deconstructing, unless there is a great cost associated with it: This is raid loot... Allowing people to re-craft is equivalent to letting someone exchange their Madstone shield for a Stormreaver's Napkin.
It's not at all equivalent, because the shield and the cloak are not even slightly competitive items. They're in different categories, and serve entirely different purposes.

It's unlikely that many player characters have had to make a choice between taking the shield or the cloak. Basically something drops, and you keep it if you can use it. If a particular character preferred the shield before, it is highly unlikely that any future improvement to the cloak would make him look back and wish he could have chosen differently. Most characters would only want one or the other item, and if someone wanted both (like a cleric), then probably he got one or both by random chest drops and possibly picked up the other from the 20th reward.

But the topic under consideration here is that axe or rapier options might be added to Shroud loot. Those things would compete directly with existing Shroud items like mauls, longswords, and shortswords- and they'd almost always win. It would mean that seriously 99% of all Green Steel mauls and shortswords would've been axes or rapiers if that choice had been allowed.

Borror0
05-16-2008, 06:05 PM
It would mean their characters were actually worse off for having played the game; and if they had taken a break from raiding that mission then they'd be in better position to do a few more runs and get better items from the 20th reward.

It depends, most players have more than one character.
Meaning they might be sad on one, but happy on another if you improve the 20th reward system.

Not implementing deconstruction in the Shroud only disapoint people.

Sure, some would be happy to have axes and rapiers but... most of those who really plan on getting stuff from the Shroud at least one tier 3 item, most likely a weapon. And, unless it's a khopesh or they were already longsword users, they would probably enjoy having the oppourtunity to make scimitars, kukris, handaxes, dwarven axes, great axes, heavy picks and greataxes!!

It's also a counter that keeps on moving. They'll taste the fun if they really had the intention to keep on running that raid. If you improve the 20th, you'll reduce the grind. Adding new weapons is adding a grind. So, in that optic, it is not similar. Every characters will get some enjoyment from it sooner or later, unless they are done with the grind before reaching another 20th.

Or did you mean new loot?

Dark_Helmet
05-16-2008, 06:22 PM
I never said that don’t go on but my main point was it only takes 24-48 hours to find exploits for those that actually looking. The difference between them knowing about it for 30 days vs 28 days is to minor for me to worry about.

You make it sound like people would not know about exploits if it was not on test server when the reality is that exploits was found almost as fast in mod 1 before test server even existed.

Incorrect - The test servers (yes multiple) were always in place, but not public knowledge. Less people were able to test and play, so it was harder to find problems. When problems were found, you submitted them and then they seemed to fall into a black hole (sound familiar?) as they prioritized their work mainly on making schedule dates (no matter how buggy, get the code out the door). Then, people who tested started to publically complain about bugs that will be part of the baseline instead of being fixed and it started a real uproar... As you see, all of the bug / expoit information became tightly held (e.g. less outside alpha / beta testers so less actualy player feedback). Now, they have some teams who are playing and testing, but it doesn't cover the full gamut of possible play styles so they miss alot of unqiue ways to bug quests as well as things that can generate server and client lag.


I believe one of the test servers became a public test server so they could do more load based stress testing. The others are still private and will continue to be private due to the fact there are a lot of people out there getting the heads up on how to exploit and ran them to death on day 1 at each code drop... which ruins it for those who like to RP.

bandyman1
05-17-2008, 03:49 PM
But he COULD edit his, and change it slightly, then send in a complaint for des cube. LoL!

Nope. The Devs can see the post as it was originally submitted. Trust me :(

GlassCannon
05-18-2008, 12:11 AM
The Khopesh is a very old weapon, designed during the height of the Egyptian Empire by the Canaanites. http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Khopesh

According to its design and swing, it should hold a critical multiplier of 2.5x for the outer blade and 2x for the inner. Most Khopeshes were made Weighted on one side with either an inner or an outer blade, and were hard to use without proper training. The Katana is a more effective weapon, and is as easily wielded as a Longsword(and therefore is a Martial weapon), but has a much better slicing blade design, granting it the legitimacy of a true 3x critical multiplier(The Khopesh would still have a higher durability for design however).

The Wakizashi is a finessable shorter and much lighter version of a Katana, and is as easily used as a Sickle(Simple Weapon), or a Dagger.
Typically used as a Defensive weapon only, it was commonly a weapon last resort(or "Special Circumstance" as it was also used to kill grappled enemies at close range) in the Japanese Revolution(s), with only few exceptions. Some Wakizashi are straight(Straight Wakizashi were typically used as assasin weapons and were blackened for such a purpose to avoid reflecting light), others resemble a Katana.



Environmental Weapons are weapons that a person Grapples, then uses according to their particular proficiency and affinity for weapons near the shape and type of said Environmental weapon. Exceptionally strong persons are known for breaking off large tree limbs in excess of 20 feet long and using them successfully as massive clubs. Others use nearby stones with a Flail or other instrument, perhaps manufacting them with a Hammer of some type(And a Chisel if necessary).


I want to customize the affinities and true skills of my character... this requires a complete revision of DDO, and an Equipment Upgrade to the standard of 2039. I'll wait for it.

Asirin
05-18-2008, 02:50 AM
These forums have really turned me off to this game. They have made me realize that everyone wants to complain about everything. Me me me me me me me me me. It is always about ME. I will no longer come these forums as it has become a bunch of cry babies or people trying to flame others. What happened to the real discussions? For those of you that complain-be happy that you have this game in the first place and be thankful to the Devs for making this game as awesome as it is. If you want to complain then leave or make your own MMO if you are so damn smart-PEACE and feel free to flame me as this is the last time I will ever come to once great source of information. It is sad that the few have ruined these forums for the masses.

As for the previous poster Josh--get a life, this is just a game.
I feel ya man.

Very few posts with real discussions and real solutions to most of the problems plaguing this game are few and far between in this forum.
Right now the current trend is overanalyzing (nitpicking) this new Mod to DEATH.

I for one will be spending more time in game and less time on this abysmal whinefest.

HumanJHawkins
05-18-2008, 02:26 PM
An improvement to technology means the supplier has gained a capability he didn't have before. At first he didn't know how to make the better graphics card, and now he does. All consumers of technology are aware of the march of progress- sometime it's even formalized as Moore's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moores_Law)- so they expect better products to come out after their purchase.

The situation in a game is not like that, because there was no limitation on their ability before. They could have added axes and rapiers immediately with module 6, or anytime later. It's just a matter of whether or not they wanted to- there is no way to interpret it as something new they've learned how to do.

Do you really think there was no limitation to what they could have done? Do you think it's just a matter of putting the weapons in the game? Do you really think they don't need a team of players and QA and managers running through and using the stuff to see if adding something might unbalance the game?

I have no inside info, but it is quite likely that they put dwarven axes in early in development. Then realized no one in their right mind would craft anything else, and all the non-dwarves would feel gimped. So they figured, we better pull these out until we can figure out a way to gimp them a little without the player base getting ****ed by it.

Have you looked at the crafting options they have right now? (Rhetorical... I know you have). Do you think someone just wrote that up and called it good? I'm sure it took all the planning they could come up with and they just couldn't get some of the items in there, either because they didn't have time, or couldn't do it without overpowering a certain minority of the player base.

Hopefully they have figured out a way to fix that, and will release it in mod 7.

Angelus_dead
05-18-2008, 02:57 PM
Do you really think they don't need a team of players and QA and managers running through and using the stuff to see if adding something might unbalance the game?
It's never stopped them before.


So they figured, we better pull these out until we can figure out a way to gimp them a little without the player base getting ****ed by it.
That is not the hypothesis under discussion here. If they are doing that, then that is a distinctly different modification than the one they are being warned against. As a reminder, the present complaint concerns: "Adding new superior green steel weapon types, without a means to retroactively give that benefit to existing weapons".

According to your theory, they would not actually be inserting superior weapon types, because they would be "gimped" somehow. Well, that's a fine theory... but it has no grounding in any information we've been given.

It supposes an excessive effort by the devs. There isn't a lot of mathematical space to maneuver in, because the distinction between D&D weapons is small. It would be terribly difficult to create a "gimped" axe that would be weak enough not to overshadow mauls and swords that already exist, but which is strong enough to recognizably have axe traits and make dwarf players happy to receive it. To design (and test!) weapons fitting that criteria would be harder than simply allowing existing green steel weapons to be broken down to ingredients and reforged into the new varieties.


I'm sure it took all the planning they could come up with and they just couldn't get some of the items in there, either because they didn't have time, or couldn't do it without overpowering a certain minority of the player base.
If they were originally extra-cautious and limited the weapon types to mostly weak options to ensure the loot wasn't overpowered, but have evaluated it over time and decided superior items are actually acceptable, then the new choices constitute the correction of an error. As already explained, if items are mistakenly too weak and fixed later, the correct approach is to allow characters with the older weaker items to have them retroactively improved.

In most game systems, when something like that happens the server can automatically replace the old items with new versions- it's a transparent thing that happens almost without notice. DDO does not have that capability, and it wouldn't work anyway since the items in question are built from a mix of choices. Thus to implement the change fairly, they'd have to enable existing items to be recovered for ingredients somehow.

Garth_of_Sarlona
05-18-2008, 07:27 PM
I for one, found the few weeks working out what all the recipes did, especially the way in which the (usually divisive) forum community worked together to solve the puzzles, the most rewarding time I have had playing DDO. So, I suppose that means I agree with the OP.

Mystery is good, it is that which makes reading a book or watching a film better than just skipping to the end and reading the last page or watching the last scene.

Garth

Angelus_dead
05-18-2008, 10:41 PM
I for one, found the few weeks working out what all the recipes did, especially the way in which the (usually divisive) forum community worked together to solve the puzzles, the most rewarding time I have had playing DDO.
Sure. That's something you can investigate through experimentation. But there is NOTHING you could do now to figure out the "secrets" of future mod7 changes to the loot creation, unless we count "Pester the developers until they spill it"

Look at it from an in-character perspective. Your dwarven barb or whatever has collected a bunch of large shroud ingredients, and with the advice of his allies who have studied the possibilities carefully, is ready to build himself a mineral II maul. How does the "secret" that he might be able to get a greataxe after a few weeks of waiting make sense to the character, or make the game more fun for the player?


So, I suppose that means I agree with the OP.

Mystery is good, it is that which makes reading a book or watching a film better than just skipping to the end and reading the last page or watching the last scene.
The OP is not actually talking about mystery or "things secret". That is an inaccuracy in word choice.

Mystery or secrets would mean there are things in the game that players have to discover for themselves. That's an entirely different subject from the purpose of the post, which is to attack players worried about future changes that would invalidate their past choices. The fact that the changes happen to be secret is not important: what matters is that the devs might add new green-steel blanks which would be strictly superior to the blanks players have already been imbuing their ingredients into.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-18-2008, 10:44 PM
Grrr, you beat me to it, LoL. Still, if it is incorrect, should they NOT do a retraction statement? Confusion can not be good. Letting it out that something is in developement, or planned to come out at one point, then deny it, without putting out a retraction, or even sending MMORPG an Email requesting they correct their interview, just seems like GOOD business to take care of any misquotes, especialy something so major.

Earlier today they already "corrected" her on abundant step and she has made "unclear" statements before. I suspect she doesn't actually know what's really going on in this game and that her level of planning is at the very global level.

Borror0
05-18-2008, 10:51 PM
Earlier today they already "corrected" her on abundant step and she has made "unclear" statements before. I suspect she doesn't actually know what's really going on in this game and that her level of planning is at the very global level.

That may sound like a weird question, but, as a Senior Producer what's her tasks?

Isn't she supposed to be the big boss who knows everything?!:confused:

DasLurch
05-18-2008, 11:33 PM
Ok, do you have any idea of how much time it takes to get 22 large ingrediants?

There tons of reasons to allow deconstruction. You cannot compare the Shroud to any other raid, as the Shroud is unique in his way to give raid loot. Other raids' loot is random, this is not. You spend X time to gather the ingrediants to make an item. Whether you want to make a shortsword or a rapier, it'll take the same amount of time. The only reason to craft one item over another is that you think this one will be more beneficial to you.

It's slap in the face if Turbine does not allow deconstruction.

Let's not forgot those who took one for the team or misread the source when crafting... they'd be happy too.

While I aggree that it would be nice to see some form of deconstruction put into the game, I do not thnk it needs to be (or will ever be) a complete "do-over". I'd like to think that there was some way for the people that went ahead and made all of the early shroud items to recover some of their investments that helped us all out. I don't think it would be a "slap in the face" if it isn't added though. I'd be disappointed that these people took such a tough one for everyone else here. It would not be unfair though. The item that they made is STILL a great item even if it isn't what that person wanted it to be. I know there are very valid arguements against what I just said, and I aggree with some of them. The real offense would be if the system that gets put in place (because I do believe that there will be one someday) allows for any sort of abuse on the part of those doing the deconstruction.

If we all look at the track record established here, we've only been able to swap feats one at a time for some sort of considerable cost. Same thing goes for spells. If a system ever gets implemented that is geared towards deconstruction, I think it will be along those lines. I see it being something that will take a new shard from each level to uncraft the certain item. It will take the same number of power cells to uncraft that item as a player used in making it. We'll only be able to deconstruct 1 alter (or posibly only one step) at a time. Anything we deconstruct will be bound to that character. And we'll probably have to start at the top alter used, so that means a completion run in most cases. For some, it will mean several runs at the very least.

The problem with this debate as I see it is more over the speculation that a rapier, axe, scimitar, or pick will be added to the recipies. My best guess would have these new recipies lean more towards Q-staves, kamas, armors, and quite posibly rings. The things that a Monk would use most often. I find it pretty unlikely that there would be a change of that magnatude made to include some of the more desireable weapons at this point. The new module is probably going to make certain to incude 1 class at all times, and even some of the past ones, when at all able. We may even see some new shroud crafted recipies come out of it as well that would benefit a monk more than other classes.

In the end though, while I was grateful that Eladrin at least hasn't been ducking the community over the last week or 2, his little tidbits were good news for all of us. Horns finally being of some use is good news, and it will be great news if they are used in recipies that people are excited about. I'm certain that we are ALL looking forward to more info on the subject. Those tidbits given to us by Eladrin did also give some of us a chance to throw the best and worst kinds of wild speculation around at the opportunity. I know I'm looking forward to more of them, but it can be hard to be objective over the chance.

Borror0
05-18-2008, 11:44 PM
If we all look at the track record established here, we've only been able to swap feats one at a time for some sort of considerable cost. Same thing goes for spells. If a system ever gets implemented that is geared towards deconstruction, I think it will be along those lines.

Up to this point I agreed.


I see it being something that will take a new shard from each level to uncraft the certain item. It will take the same number of power cells to uncraft that item as a player used in making it.

How about a Supreme Shard or something like that instead?


We'll only be able to deconstruct 1 alter (or posibly only one step) at a time. Anything we deconstruct will be bound to that character. And we'll probably have to start at the top alter used, so that means a completion run in most cases. For some, it will mean several runs at the very least.

You've got to run it once to completion, then 1-3, then once again to completion. Then, in that run you'll be able to craft... yeah, you've got your three days timer there... but would it be simplier to just put a three day timer on it? It probably be less trouble to code, no?

TechNoFear
05-19-2008, 08:27 AM
@Angelus_dead

I am assuming that there will be a similar pattern to the current green steel craftings two parts [green steel blank and powers].

Four(?) more quests, each of which has a "Stone of ", all of which are required to craft new blank types.

A new raid will add different powers to all green steel items (including current ones). New types will be able to use the Shroud to add powers.


Assuming the new raid allows you to add more desirable powers.

Do you think you should be able to deconstruct to get these new powers (at no penalty), while retaining the same blank?
(ie remove an X tier power so you can add an X tier power from the new raid)




If it turns out they add recipes for Green Steel Greataxes and Rapiers, that means that everyone who has already worked to get a Maul or Shortsword will have been wasting his large ingredients.

You decided to make what you could now and have had the use of your choice.

You could have decided to wait save your ingredients based on;
There could be more content which may include the missing items.
There could be more content which may include different powers to those items.

If there is deconstruction (or no more types can be made) then anyone who waited will have wasted all that time (in which they could have had a similar shroud item/wep to yours).


In module 4 you could turn in 25 dragonscales for some fancy +5 armor. What if in module 5 they changed it so you got +6 armor instead, but existing items weren't upgraded?

In module 5 you could turn in 8 tome pages for a dagger of +150 sp or a pick with 19-20 crits. What if in module 6 they changed it to be a +250 sp dagger or an 18-20 pick, but existing weapons didn't benefit?

I do not agree with this example.
Equipment always decreases in usefulness as content/level increases (eg Banishers are now very valuable since the Vale).
These items are not changing.
More are being added, requiring you to run different content to get them.

Vorpals once cost millions (when cap was 10), are you saying that everybody who bought one for millions _then_, should get a refund _now_ as Vorpals are not worth as much? (because they are much more common)

Borror0
05-19-2008, 09:31 AM
Vorpals once cost millions (when cap was 10), are you saying that everybody who bought one for millions _then_, should get a refund _now_ as Vorpals are not worth as much? (because they are much more common)

Wrong analogy.

Your analogy would be more about if they reduced the cost in ingrediants to craft and Angelus would be asking for a refund.

Besides, Vorpals were bought from players, Turbine didn't set the price on it.

HumanJHawkins
05-19-2008, 06:23 PM
<CUT>The OP is not actually talking about mystery or "things secret". That is an inaccuracy in word choice.

Mystery or secrets would mean there are things in the game that players have to discover for themselves. That's an entirely different subject from the purpose of the post, which is to attack players worried about future changes that would invalidate their past choices.

No... keeping some things secret is a part of the original post. And the only one here doing any "attacking" (and mischaracterizing by the way), is you.

I would keep debating with you, but you have conveniently ignored parts of the previous posts that you apparently didn't have an answer for, and attempted to make straw men of others. It would be silly to give you fodder to continue this. But luckily enough of both sides of this has already been written that people who want to wade through it can get a good sense of the issues and make up their own minds.

Hopefully Turbine will have the sense to make the game better for all, and not worry too much if some people are offended by the improvements.