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Shadow_Wolf
05-15-2008, 03:28 PM
As a Warforged Barbarian what exactly are the downsides to taking Adamantium body- can these downsides be counteracted by taking 1 level in fighter?

Impaqt
05-15-2008, 03:33 PM
As a Warforged Barbarian what exactly are the downsides to taking Adamantium body- can these downsides be counteracted by taking 1 level in fighter?

I think a better question would be "What would the benefits be?"

The 3-6 Points of AC you'd gain from Adamantine plating is not worth it, and I dont think the Adamantine DR will stack with Barb DR.

boldarblood
05-15-2008, 03:38 PM
As a Warforged Barbarian what exactly are the downsides to taking Adamantium body- can these downsides be counteracted by taking 1 level in fighter?

Will never get a high enough AC to matter, and feats are a premium for a Barb. Ditch the body armour, get DPS feats. :)

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 03:42 PM
Soooo.....
You guys are saying a WF brb should run around with no armor?

That mentality would explain a lot of what I've seen.....and all this time I thought those guys getting beat up in the harbor were noobs.

gemineye
05-15-2008, 03:44 PM
A good docent maybe?

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 03:46 PM
As a Warforged Barbarian what exactly are the downsides to taking Adamantium body- can these downsides be counteracted by taking 1 level in fighter?
The downside is you have one less feat to spend on Greater Two-handed Fighting or Weapon Focus or Stunning Blow or whatever else you might want to take. It's true that a fighter level would give you a bonus feat that could serve to replace the one you had lost, but I wouldn't recommend that.

The main reason serious WF barbs do not have Adamantine Body or Mithral Body is because there isn't enough benefit. It's a game-design flaw in DDO, but armor class isn't as valuable as it should be. This leads to the aesthetically weird situation where a WF barb looks exactly the same as a WF wizard, both of them wearing wimpy-looking colorful drapes instead of anything thematically appropriate for a barbarian.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 03:50 PM
To the op.
No disadvantage that I know of. But like everything else, depends on your build.

To everyone else.
What DPS feat can you get at 1st lvl that makes a darn bit if difference?!
Power Attack? Can't hit with it on.
Improved THF? So you can get agro from more Kobolds?

I think my eyes have just been opened by reading this thread.

Two years, and I finally figured out why so many clerics hate WF Brbs.

Arianrhod
05-15-2008, 03:51 PM
Theoretically, it would make sense to start with adamantium body, then switch it out around level 9, when AC under 40 stops being as valuable. However, due to prerequisites, that could involve rather a lot of cash and dragonshards to get the feats all rearranged properly. Probably not worth the trouble for most people.

Laith
05-15-2008, 03:54 PM
whenever you wear armor that you are not proficient in (like adamantine body on a barb), you apply the armor check penalty to your attack rolls (this is somewhere around -6 for AB i believe). this penalty is counteracted by becoming proficient in the armor (fighter1 does the trick).

later on, odds are pretty good that 2 things will happen (good odds = pretty much assured):
1) your ac will stop mattering.
2) your barbarian dr will overcome that from the adamantine body feat (it won't stack).

when those happen the feat is actually hurting you instead of helping you (armor check penalty to skills, don't actually benefit from the DR or AC).

boldarblood
05-15-2008, 03:57 PM
To the op.
No disadvantage that I know of. But like everything else, depends on your build.

To everyone else.
What DPS feat can you get at 1st lvl that makes a darn bit if difference?!
Power Attack? Can't hit with it on.
Improved THF? So you can get agro from more Kobolds?

I think my eyes have just been opened by reading this thread.

Two years, and I finally figured out why so many clerics hate WF Brbs.

Easy

1) 2 HF / 2 WF 3) Power Attack 6)Improved 2 HF / WF 9)Improved Crit (slash or pierce) 12) Greater 2 HF / WF 15) Stunning Blow

Adamantine adds nothing to a barb.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 04:01 PM
A good docent maybe?

But the highest is only +5, and you can't get that till lvl 8.

You're effectively tanking with the AC of a Wiz....

I understand a good offense is better than a good defense....but...
I just can't fathom that people really thing you shouldn't take the best you can get.

Most of my toons AC never tops 40, but I know I get hit a hell of a lot less, even in the Vale, if I have my shield equiped. Only the biggest baddies out there can hit any ac on a 2 or better.....most of them miss at least occasionally.

Actually, I've started doing a little tanking with my Wiz lately.......and I caught so much **** for it when someone else saw me doing it.

But here you guys are promoting naked rage fighting tactics.......

Let's build a char who pulls as much agro as possible.....and throw him in the middle of the baddest mobs in the game.........naked.

I guess I'll never be part of the truly elite.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 04:05 PM
whenever you wear armor that you are not proficient in (like adamantine body on a barb), you apply the armor check penalty to your attack rolls (this is somewhere around -6 for AB i believe). this penalty is counteracted by becoming proficient in the armor (fighter1 does the trick).

later on, odds are pretty good that 2 things will happen (good odds = pretty much assured):
1) your ac will stop mattering.
2) your barbarian dr will overcome that from the adamantine body feat (it won't stack).

when those happen the feat is actually hurting you instead of helping you (armor check penalty to skills, don't actually benefit from the DR or AC).

I have a WF Brb w/Adamantine body......no non-proficient penalty to attack. But at low lvl (mines only 4) PA w/Brb and WF PA enhancements.....means I never hit a thing.

I can kinda understand switching it out at very high lvls though.

Laith
05-15-2008, 04:07 PM
I have a WF Brb w/Adamantine body......no non-proficient penalty to attack. But at low lvl (mines only 4) PA w/Brb and WF PA enhancements.....means I never hit a thing.

I can kinda understand switching it out at very high lvls though.
heh... if that's the case, i'd tend to think it's implemented wrong. it's heavy armor.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 04:13 PM
As if I haven't posted enough....sry.

Does a Docent stack with Armored bracers?
Will +6 Armored Bracers and a +5 Docent give a +11 armor bonus to AC?

If that is true, than I can understand you thinking. I just didn't think they would stack. Never tried it. Only a few WF lowbies running around.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2008, 04:18 PM
heh... if that's the case, i'd tend to think it's implemented wrong. it's heavy armor.

I built my WF Brb a long time ago on a little played server just to try this out. I got no penalty, so I kept the toon around. Just don't play "her" often.

My highest WF is a Rgr8/Wiz1....also w/adamantine body....in his case i expect to switch it out when he gets evasion, but I'm actually curious to wait and see if it really won't work first. Currently though he would get the same AC w/Mithral body, so all he would lose is DR.

I've never made a WF without adamantine body yet, so I haven't even tried with armored bracers yet.
Still a lot to learn about WF.

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 04:30 PM
heh... if that's the case, i'd tend to think it's implemented wrong. it's heavy armor.
It's not heavy armor, or any kind of armor. It's a feat which provides an armor bonus to AC.

No warforged would ever be nonproficient in his own body.

TommyBoy
05-15-2008, 04:45 PM
To the op.
No disadvantage that I know of. But like everything else, depends on your build.
except there are waybetter options. toughness, plus if your going to spec either thf or twf you'll not want to take it.
To everyone else.
What DPS feat can you get at 1st lvl that makes a darn bit if difference?!
Power Attack? Can't hit with it on.
look at your build my WF hit just fine with PA at lvl1

Improved THF? So you can get agro from more Kobolds?
actually at that lvl it would be regular thf not improved and seeing as most of the kobolds were dead on the first or second swing... more agro the better less running for me

I think my eyes have just been opened by reading this thread.

Two years, and I finally figured out why so many clerics hate WF Brbs.
no just ones not built very well. I personaly carry my own pots, use either a gaurd or fearsom item, and crit(with carnifex) like every third swing or so. my WF Barb has out lasted the whole party most times. And with the cleric I run with Im his last to look at.


see red

sigtrent
05-15-2008, 05:16 PM
see red

Your citing mid level gear and twinked out characters though. it really depends on the player as to what makes the most sense. For a first charactar adamantine body is probably a good pick for survivability adn all around usefulness until they hit level 12 or so. For a long time player its a lot less important as they can compensate with gear, good play, and the abbility to level very quickly.

Impaqt
05-15-2008, 05:38 PM
It's not heavy armor, or any kind of armor. It's a feat which provides an armor bonus to AC.

No warforged would ever be nonproficient in his own body.

But it is armor... The Bonus to ac is an Armor Bonus.. Evasion does not work and it causes Arcane Spell Failure. There is a Distinct difference between Composit Plating and Mithral and Adamantine. It goes way beyond just your ac.. Armor check Penalties, Dex Bonus, Spell Failure chance... All of it is just like the differenct armors available for fleshies.

Going by Memory Here....

COmposite Plating 2AC +8 Max Dex Bonus
Mithral 5AC +5 Max Dex Bonus
Adamantine 8AC +1 Max Dex Bonus.

If I recall Correctly, Composite and Mithral can actually provide higher ac depending on your dex.

Strykersz
05-15-2008, 05:46 PM
Composite plating does not have a dex cap, Adamantine can be useful up to 10 or so and pretty much without cost(PA does not increase your dps until you are reliably +15 of the enemies ac with it on, which doesn't really occur until 10-13) but post GH it is unlikely to be useful. Armor bracers don't stack with Docent/Feat AC.

Mhykke
05-15-2008, 05:47 PM
To the op.
No disadvantage that I know of. But like everything else, depends on your build.

To everyone else.
What DPS feat can you get at 1st lvl that makes a darn bit if difference?!
Power Attack? Can't hit with it on.
Improved THF? So you can get agro from more Kobolds?

I think my eyes have just been opened by reading this thread.

Two years, and I finally figured out why so many clerics hate WF Brbs.

Actually, my cleric only hates characters that are getting hit quite often, and kill slowly. I would MUCH rather be in a party of 5 warforged barbs specced for dps than in a party of 5 warforged barbs who used a feat on addy body and carry a shield. This is what people often get confused. Just b/c you have a low AC does not mean you are a mana sponge. A mana sponge is one that gets constantly beat on and cannot deal with the thing beating on him quickly (either through a very, very high AC to cause a lot of misses, which a barb probably won't have, or killing the thing very quickly.)

Maybe for low levels you can get by, but meh, the low levels go by fast enough w/o worrying about it.

Arianrhod
05-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Maybe for low levels you can get by, but meh, the low levels go by fast enough w/o worrying about it.

Guess this is the key - if those low levels go by fast, spec for DPS from the start. If you expect to spend several months under 10th level, you might enjoy admantium body for a while ;)

Then again, most people who enjoy playing barbarians are inclined to take things as fast as possible, so if you're the slow-going "turtle-up" type, might be happier in the end with a fighter or paladin anyway ;)

Dungnmaster001
05-16-2008, 01:01 AM
heh... if that's the case, i'd tend to think it's implemented wrong. it's heavy armor.

Not quite, the feat grants proficiency in itself, and while it mimics heavy armor (for evasion, etc) it's pretty much it's own category IMO.

One question I've been wondering about though is does the adamantine body feat stop the barb fast movement feature? I had a WF barb awhile back and he always seemed a little slower than usual. Might have been my imagination.

TommyBoy
05-16-2008, 08:10 AM
Your citing mid level gear and twinked out characters though. it really depends on the player as to what makes the most sense. For a first charactar adamantine body is probably a good pick for survivability adn all around usefulness until they hit level 12 or so. For a long time player its a lot less important as they can compensate with gear, good play, and the abbility to level very quickly.

no i was speaking about my thf barb wf that I have taken to 9 and by twink you mean the +1 mual i sent him well i guess that really effected my attack. infact i ran with a masterworks docent for the longest time because i liked how it looked. blade master bracers, linen hand wraps, and carnafex are obtained through quest that are at low lvl range. do I have twinked stuff on him now... yes but the decusion was on low lvl quest like WW.

TFPAQ
05-16-2008, 11:02 AM
I have a WF Barb 10/Ranger 6 STR-Based Tempest Build. 32 Point 18 STR/CON DEX 13 (For Dodge) WIS 11 (+3 Wis Item was in the bank rr lvl 5) for the extra +2 STR for Rams.

Feat at lvl 1 I took Adamantine Body, which resulted in me not getting my Tempest until lvl 9 due to using up an initial feat for adamantine body instead of dodge.

When I hit lvl 9 I swapped adamantine out for toughness with my "free" feat exchange. Looking back I probably would/could have swapped it out for Improved Crit if I wanted more dps, but when everything was said and done he is standing at almost 500 hp without any rages, etc. Triple raged his hp is outrageous, so I probably could have swapped/skipped the toughness feat. I took the improved crit at 12 and oversized two weapon fighting at 15.

Since no one knows what is going to happen with the barb improved crits, I set him up to have both when the lvl cap hits 20. If they push them off to higher levels, nerf them, etc, I may consider two lvls of fighter for the extra feats, depending...

His weapons of choice (which are bound) are +5 Acid Scimitar of Pure Good and a +5 Shocking Burst Scimitar of Maiming, which seem to handle most quests quite nicely...

+3 Fearsome Docent of Greater False Life was a gift from a guildie, bless him...

Talon_Moonshadow
05-16-2008, 11:05 AM
Composite plating does not have a dex cap, Adamantine can be useful up to 10 or so and pretty much without cost(PA does not increase your dps until you are reliably +15 of the enemies ac with it on, which doesn't really occur until 10-13) but post GH it is unlikely to be useful. Armor bracers don't stack with Docent/Feat AC.

I should have checked last night...but I didn't.

Are you sure about armored bracers?

After I posted all my ranting yesterday, I was thinking about it. And I came to the conclusion that armored bracers grant an "armor" bonus and docents grant an "enhancement" bonus......so I assumed they did stack, and that I had been wrong to be so critical of "naked" WF.

Assmuming now that they do indeed stack, by my calculations any average player could have a better AC at lvl 13 without adamantine body feat as he could with. (AB=+8, +1 dex....+5 docent...10+8+1+5=24 AC.)( +6 armored bracers, +5 docent, +5 dex item, +1 tome=18 dex for +4 to AC....10+6+4+5=25)

With that in mind I figure it would be good to start with it and then respect for PA when it seemed more beneficial.

But if armored braces do not stack, than my original argument holds.

Ran with a friend's WF Brb (lvl4) last night....but didn't ask him about his build.
I did notice he had neither AB or MB....and was THF the whole time.

he had the high kill count, but he spent almost as much time incapped as he did fighting. Seems reckless to me.

sigtrent
05-16-2008, 11:11 AM
After I posted all my ranting yesterday, I was thinking about it. And I came to the conclusion that armored bracers grant an "armor" bonus and docents grant an "enhancement" bonus......so I assumed they did stack, and that I had been wrong to be so critical of "naked" WF.


They don't stack. Docents "enhance" your body armor as a warforge. Look at a typical suit of armor or a longsword and you will see each has an "enhancement bonus" on it. They are enchantments that enhance the item, not the wearer. Docents are basicaly swappable magic for your WF body armor.

Laith
05-16-2008, 11:15 AM
It's not heavy armor, or any kind of armor. It's a feat which provides an armor bonus to AC.

No warforged would ever be nonproficient in his own body.and of course, the sage confirms (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070123a&dcmp=ILC-RSSDND).

guess i just don't remember that bit from the ECS.

boldarblood
05-16-2008, 03:40 PM
Ran with a friend's WF Brb (lvl4) last night....but didn't ask him about his build.
I did notice he had neither AB or MB....and was THF the whole time.

he had the high kill count, but he spent almost as much time incapped as he did fighting. Seems reckless to me.

Thats not a bad WF, thats a bad player. My WF Barb at 4th level had a 9AC and had no problem staying alive. In fact stayed alive longer than most other melee. Playing a barb is not the same as a fighter. You have to play a lot smarter, learn to control your agro.

Tarrick
05-16-2008, 03:50 PM
Started a WF Barbarian (will be 2 rogue/14 barbarian or should I go 12 barbarian/4 rogue) - I took Mithral at level 1 and two handed fighting at 3.

16 str 16 con 14 dex 14 int? 8 wis 6 char (approx, at work) -I think? I am maxing Disable and Search for skills then Open Lock and Spot.

What should I have taken and what should I take:

Level 6 - Power Attack?

Than what else? Sorry Have not gotten a character past level 4 yet. Had a Human but WF really interested me.

Thanks for the help loving the game
Khyber Resident

darthmaul121783
05-16-2008, 03:55 PM
theirs no penalty with the admiatine body because its their skin

Arianrhod
05-16-2008, 04:17 PM
Thats not a bad WF, thats a bad player. My WF Barb at 4th level had a 9AC and had no problem staying alive. In fact stayed alive longer than most other melee. Playing a barb is not the same as a fighter. You have to play a lot smarter, learn to control your agro.

The more I read about barbarians in this game, the more I get the feeling they're basically nukers - no defense, all offense, and a lot of hitpoints to compensate for having to do most of their "nuking" in melee range

Kreaper
05-16-2008, 04:34 PM
Talon, if you see a lot of WF getting mugged in the harbor then they are either noobs, melee noobs or just lousy players. I have played several WF. Some with body feats and some without. Either way, I only needed a handful of repair pots until higher levels. It really doesn't matter much at low levels. The difference will come about levels 8-10. Then it doesn't matter any more again. If you have an arcane friend that is willing to heal you (General "you", not directed at you Talon.) through those levels then there is no need to waste the feat. If you are kind of new to melee or the game, take the body feat and switch it out to toughness later.

Ghoste
05-16-2008, 05:01 PM
Adamantine body is better for lower levels. If you're taking too much damage, equip a shield as well.

At the higher levels when the AC doesn't make a difference (because it does at lower levels), you can just swap it out for another feat.

boldarblood
05-16-2008, 05:06 PM
The more I read about barbarians in this game, the more I get the feeling they're basically nukers - no defense, all offense, and a lot of hitpoints to compensate for having to do most of their "nuking" in melee range

The best defense is a good offense.

There are frequent times when you hit so hard with a barb that a mob does not have time to react due either its death or the knockback effect from a solid crit. Mix in a high strength trip/stunning blow mix.

Angelus_dead
05-16-2008, 05:08 PM
The more I read about barbarians in this game, the more I get the feeling they're basically nukers - no defense, all offense, and a lot of hitpoints to compensate for having to do most of their "nuking" in melee range
Nope. Barbarians have a lot of defense. Against some situations, barbarians can survive better than any other character. They have all these defensive traits:

Hitpoints
DR
Hitpoints from toughness enhancements
Strength
Hitpoints from constitution increases
Running Speed
Will save boost
DR boost
AC boost

Strykersz
05-16-2008, 05:11 PM
Started a WF Barbarian (will be 2 rogue/14 barbarian or should I go 12 barbarian/4 rogue) - I took Mithral at level 1 and two handed fighting at 3.

16 str 16 con 14 dex 14 int? 8 wis 6 char (approx, at work) -I think? I am maxing Disable and Search for skills then Open Lock and Spot.

What should I have taken and what should I take:

Level 6 - Power Attack?

Than what else? Sorry Have not gotten a character past level 4 yet. Had a Human but WF really interested me.

Thanks for the help loving the game
Khyber Resident

Your dex is too low to get ITWF and GTWF, unless you get a +3 dex tome(and you're missing 2 build points also). Depending on how affordable a +1/2 tome is for you, either go 15 dex(with the 2 missing points and eat a +2 tome) or 14 con 16 dex(with a +1 tome or levelup point at 4 although if you can't afford a +1 tome THF might be a better option) .

Inspire
05-18-2008, 11:06 PM
Back To The OP, Ditch The Body, Pick Another Feat :D, The DR Dosent Stack, And When Your Perma Raged(You Will Be) Ac Dosent Matter, Pick Up The Docent of Defiance And Love Your DR!

transtemporal
05-19-2008, 04:31 PM
Actually, I've started doing a little tanking with my Wiz lately.......and I caught so much **** for it when someone else saw me doing it.

Hee hee, me too. I happened to pull a +3 anarchic great axe of pure good in the vale on my sorc. Got to the portal and equipped it figuring I may as well add a bit of extra DPS to make it go quicker. I ended up doing 5-15 points of damage a hit, even with the -4 attack penalty. So I used it experimentally with a divine power clickie in subsequent fights and was amazed at the damage I was doing.

Now I would not encourage 11 AC nukers to take up the melee tanking necessarily, but definitely useful as a back-up for when the sp run out!

I know what you mean though. My party members starting making nervous "maybe you shouldn't be engaging in melee" noises. :)

transtemporal
05-19-2008, 04:37 PM
The more I read about barbarians in this game, the more I get the feeling they're basically nukers - no defense, all offense, and a lot of hitpoints to compensate for having to do most of their "nuking" in melee range

I think you're exactly right. :)

cyadra
07-03-2008, 10:56 PM
Just run around with a WF sorc friend of yours, like I do....

And AC becomes meaningless.

Better yet, roll a 16 sorc and solo yourself, and WF Barb becomes meaningless.

Oreg
07-03-2008, 11:00 PM
You're effectively tanking with the AC of a Wiz....

I understand a good offense is better than a good defense....but...
I just can't fathom that people really thing you shouldn't take the best you can get.



WF barb or most normal dps barbs, no difference really, will never achieve an AC worth mitigating damage at higher levels. So given the choice of mediocre AC plus mediocre dps versus very good dps, the choice is obvious.

Uska
07-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Thats not a bad WF, thats a bad player. My WF Barb at 4th level had a 9AC and had no problem staying alive. In fact stayed alive longer than most other melee. Playing a barb is not the same as a fighter. You have to play a lot smarter, learn to control your agro.

Couldnt have been 9 base is 10 even with a dex of 8 you would have an 11 so it was 19 right?