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Angelus_dead
05-14-2008, 11:34 PM
Problem: Many magic weapons do not make sense, because they have an on-crit effect on an item with a small crit range, and the effect doesn't scale up with the crit multiplier. Many potentially interesting kinds of weapons do not actually work in gameplay except as a cheap fallback, because things like axes and picks are intended to be balanced against swords and rapiers by trading a smaller crit range for a bigger crit multiplier. The cheapness of the item is not reflected in the list price or loot rarity.

As a clear-cut example, a puncturing pick is viewed by the loot tables to have the same value as a puncturing rapier, when in reality it is 1/3rd as powerful. Both are martial weapons, so both should be viable choices. Note that Bursting weapons already make sense, because the power of the magic scales up along with the critical multiplier. Other critical effects should have a similar behavior.


Current Situation:
Bodyfeeder- on a critical hit you gain 15 temporary hitpoints that last for up to 1 minute.
Puncturing- on a critical hit you inflict 1d6 points of constitution damage.
Banishing- on a critical hit, extraplanar creatures with under 25 HD must pass Will DC 24 or instantly return home.


Simple Suggestion: not entirely recommended
Bodyfeeder- on a critical hit you gain temporary hitpoints that last for up to 1 minute. You get 15 * (Crit Mult -1) hitpoints.
Puncturing- on a critical hit you inflict 1d6 * (Crit Mult -1) points of constitution damage.
Banishing- on a critical hit, extraplanar creatures with under 25 HD must pass Will DC 24 or instantly return home. For every point of Crit Mult above 2, the DC increases by 2 and the HD limit increases by 4.
(Obviously, Enfeebling, Bone-breaking, and Smiting effects would get equivalent changes)

That suggestion is simple and easy to understand. However, due to the design of the Barbarian Critical Rage enhancement it is overpowered, so a reduced compromise is offered. If Critical Rage were to be nerfed (such as to only apply to weapon damage and not magic effects), then the suggestion above would be appropriate.

Compromise Suggestion:
Bodyfeeder- on a critical hit you gain temporary hitpoints that last for up to 1 minute. You get 5 + 5 * Crit Mult hitpoints.
Puncturing- on a critical hit you inflict 1d6 points of constitution damage, plus 1d2 per Crit Mult above 2.

For example, a crit from an enfeebling weapon would do 1d6 strength from a rapier or club, 1d6+1d2 from an axe, and 1d6 + 2d2 from a pick.

Synergy Note
The above suggestions would increase the power of the Deepwood Sniper, Divine Sacrifice, and Exalted Smite enhancements, which presently are not highly attractive to players.

Numerical Analysis
Current puncturing
Rapier: 3.5 *3 = 10.5
Keen Rapier: 3.5 * 6 = 21
Rapier CrII: 3.5*5 = 17.5
Keen Rapier CrII: 3.5*8 = 28
Pick: 3.5
Keen Pick: 3.5*2 = 7
Pick CrII: 3.5*3 = 10.5
Keen Pick CrII: 3.5*4 = 14

Compromise Suggestion:
Pick: 3.5 +1.5+1.5 = 6.5
Keen Pick: 6.5*2 = 13
Pick CrII: 6.5*3 = 19.5
Keen Pick CrII: 6.5*4 = 26

Notice that under this suggestion, the puncturing picks are still weaker than puncturing rapiers, but they are no longer pathetically bad. The essential result is to increase the equality between those kinds of weapons. Also, the perverse situation where simple weapons are superior to martial weapons (like the case of puncturing daggers vs picks) would be ameliorated.

maddmatt70
05-14-2008, 11:42 PM
So lets make this game more pro piercing then it otherwise was. Elves with longswords and dwarves with axes can go home.. If anything your suggestion should be to nerf w/p which does not mirror the pnp version at all and is clearly overpowered.. That would make your picks more powerful because then the actual damage for crits would have more importance for piercers..

Angelus_dead
05-14-2008, 11:50 PM
So lets make this game more pro piercing then it otherwise was. Elfs with longswords and dwarves with axes can go home..
No. This change would benefit axes, as their 3x crit multiplier would increase the power of applicable on-crit magic effects.

As for elves- they already use rapiers instead of longswords if they care about on-crit effects, and this suggestion wouldn't change that.

maddmatt70
05-14-2008, 11:54 PM
No. This change would benefit axes, as their 3x crit multiplier would increase the power of applicable on-crit magic effects.

As for elves- they already use rapiers instead of longswords if they care about on-crit effects, and this suggestion wouldn't change that.

excuse me what crit effects for axes. Last I checked the only one was smiting whereas piercing has punctering, banishing and smiting. Hey in pnp longswords are alot more powerful then ddo - if you want to fix something fix that.

Elaril
05-15-2008, 12:03 AM
Yes, dwarves are underpowered. They should be removed from the game.

QuantumFX
05-15-2008, 01:40 AM
AD: Another solution would be to make puncturing more like it's P&P counterpart and do 1 pt of con damage per hit but add (d4/d6/d8 crit modifier) con damage on a crit.

Tanka
05-15-2008, 05:29 AM
excuse me what crit effects for axes. Last I checked the only one was smiting whereas piercing has punctering, banishing and smiting. Hey in pnp longswords are alot more powerful then ddo - if you want to fix something fix that.
Vorpal (only on a 20), Enfeebling, Bone Breaking.

The latter two, by the by, can make auto-crits possible.

iruka41
05-15-2008, 05:36 AM
At least I saw that the 'Holy Burst' option has changed as the way you wanted,
times ago Holy burst was more powerful on Rapier/Kukri.

So why not the puncturing? :)
Hell yeah those who already have WoP Rapier wll not be pleased,
while those who have picks will say "YAY"
and those who have shortswords and daggers will say "WHAT???"

Being more specific, I got a WoP shortsword and a dagger. crit on 19-20, x2.
Rapier is 18-20, x2, pick is 20, x4.

Currently, in WoP world,
Rapier > SS/Dagger > Picks

But if it changes like what you're saying,
Rapier/Picks > SS/Dagger.

(Wow, now I'll be the one who cries :eek:)

Boldrin
05-15-2008, 05:37 AM
Uh, some weapons are just better than others.... does everything have to be equal?

iruka41
05-15-2008, 05:42 AM
Vorpal (only on a 20), Enfeebling, Bone Breaking.

The latter two, by the by, can make auto-crits possible.

Bone Breaking is only for Bludgeoning weapons as far as I know.

iruka41
05-15-2008, 05:48 AM
Uh, some weapons are just better than others.... does everything have to be equal?

That's right. But then again, if it was euqal,
we could have seen more variaty of weapon usage.

I personally think simple weapons should have the lowest quality, martials the middle, exotics the best.
In the same category, it would have been better if they had quite eqaul value. (Not the same status)

But the truth is... Vorpal Sickle is the best, WoP Heavy Pick and Banishing Warhammer is the worst, etc...

Well, that's life hehe.

Riminy
05-15-2008, 05:53 AM
Uh, some weapons are just better than others.... does everything have to be equal?

I think the main point is to close the gap between a 17-20(15-20 keen) and the 20-20(19-20 keen). They wouldnt be equal but maybe for certian situations we wouldnt always want a rapier or scimitar because of the crit range.

Tanka
05-15-2008, 05:53 AM
Bone Breaking is only for Bludgeoning weapons as far as I know.
Maybe. I just grabbed the suffixes off the Wiki. No entry for Bone Breaking, and I wouldn't use it because -Dex is going to take forever, and honestly -Str is better for the reduction of to-hit and damage, until they're helpless and you can just smack them around for a few seconds.

iruka41
05-15-2008, 09:52 AM
I think the main point is to close the gap between a 17-20(15-20 keen) and the 20-20(19-20 keen). They wouldnt be equal but maybe for certian situations we wouldnt always want a rapier or scimitar because of the crit range.

How about the gap between a Smiting Scimitar and a Smiting BattleAxe? :) Higher DC?
It's never gonna end.

iruka41
05-15-2008, 10:04 AM
Maybe. I just grabbed the suffixes off the Wiki. No entry for Bone Breaking, and I wouldn't use it because -Dex is going to take forever, and honestly -Str is better for the reduction of to-hit and damage, until they're helpless and you can just smack them around for a few seconds.

A: a mob whose STR 'already' became zero. Became helpless and now starting to get an auto crit.
B: a mob just starting to get a CON damage from scratch.

In the Vale of Twilight, B goes down faster :(
There's no place for other stat damaging weapon other than Wounding/Puncturing for most cases.
There's only few special exceptions like beholder, etc.

In the Shroud, even CON damage is very annoying because Vorpal is killing most 'teleporting' mobs.
Unless you can concentrate on 1 mob at a time, stat damaging weapons are almost useless.
(When every players use wounding/puncturing weapon, that's whole different story though.)

Anyways, off the topic :)

Missing_Minds
05-15-2008, 10:45 AM
A: a mob whose STR 'already' became zero. Became helpless and now starting to get an auto crit.
B: a mob just starting to get a CON damage from scratch.

In the Vale of Twilight, B goes down faster :(
There's no place for other stat damaging weapon other than Wounding/Puncturing for most cases.
There's only few special exceptions like beholder, etc.


*smirk* I've lost track of how many mobs my ranger dual using weaking puncturing shorts swords has brought str down to 0 and a few swings later con'd them to death.

Ever see a rogue dual use maladroits? Oh look, you have little dex to begin with.. and now you have none.. crit+ sneak, crit+sneak, all while holding the agro till dead.

There is a place for all stat damagers, the trick being knowing your character well enough to use them. That is something the forums can't teach.

As for the ops base ideas, not bad. Some of his inital thoughts are over powered, but remember, even AD stated they were ideas and could use refinement.

Yaga_Nub
05-15-2008, 10:52 AM
Not no but HELL NO.

There is no compelling reason to try to even the weapons out for different effects.

If this actually happened then people would start asking for the same damage die.

arminius
05-15-2008, 10:53 AM
Maybe. I just grabbed the suffixes off the Wiki. No entry for Bone Breaking, and I wouldn't use it because -Dex is going to take forever, and honestly -Str is better for the reduction of to-hit and damage, until they're helpless and you can just smack them around for a few seconds.

High Con / High Hit Point / High Str dwarves, like those in Made to Order, A. Haven quests, and Relic, among others, are perfect targets for Maladroit of Bone Breaking. A party full of these make short simple work of these sometimes very painful quests.

Don't knock it till you try it.....

_

Aspenor
05-15-2008, 10:56 AM
I am for this change on Puncturing effects, but not the Banishing.

Yaga_Nub
05-15-2008, 11:01 AM
I am for this change on Puncturing effects, but not the Banishing.

you n00b! :p

anyone else for an easy button?

BTW maladroit of BB is awesome!

Aspenor
05-15-2008, 11:05 AM
you n00b! :p

anyone else for an easy button?

BTW maladroit of BB is awesome!

What easy button??? What r u talkin about willis?

dameron
05-15-2008, 11:07 AM
This is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.

No sane caster would bother to make a +3 heavy pick of puncturing or any other on crit only effect. Burst weapons? Sure, they account for the extra crit multiplier, and do damange on every blow, but puncturing or banishing? Nope.

So the problem is that the loot generators are far too random.

If you're going to include on crit only effects to low crit range weapons then those weapons should also be impact or keen as the most likely additional enhancement. If the loot tables generated weapons that made sense we wouldn't need to hammer the effects back into position like they're the doors on a K car.

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 12:36 PM
Not no but HELL NO.
There is no compelling reason to try to even the weapons out for different effects.
If this actually happened then people would start asking for the same damage die.
What makes you say that?

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 12:42 PM
No sane caster would bother to make a +3 heavy pick of puncturing or any other on crit only effect. Burst weapons? Sure, they account for the extra crit multiplier, and do damange on every blow, but puncturing or banishing? Nope.
It's true, there are two possible approaches to resolve this problem:

1. Fix on-crit effects so they take crit multiplier into account, and become more powerful on weapons that have stronger but rarer crits.
2. Change the loot tables so that whenever a non-scaling on-crit effect is generated on an item with low crit range but high crit mult, the item type changes into one with high range and low mult. So puncturing picks would turn into puncturing rapiers as they're created.

Either of those methods could reduce or eliminate the silliness of weapons dropping which make no sense, like the puncturing picks that not only are inferior to puncturing rapiers, but to puncturing daggers as well.

However, my suggestion would retroactively apply to existing weapons, and more importantly, it would increase the variety of effective weapon choices, which makes the game more interesting, and thus more fun. Also it just makes sense in terms of verisimilitude: if a weapon is known for powerful crits, then you'd expect on-crit magical effects to be stronger when delivered by that weapon. It works for Flaming Burst, it should work for Puncturing and Banishing too.

Laith
05-15-2008, 12:47 PM
good argument A_D. I'd say yes to the puncturing, but only maybe on the banishing. In this particular case (banishing) the +4HD seems to be a bit much. I'd be ok with a simple DC hike.

Increasing the damage quotient by crit-multiplier goes in line with burst damage weapons. Increasing the DC of save effects due to crit-multiplier is unprecedented as far as i know.

Also, this stays with the burst damage fact that high-multiplier becomes better than wide-range when the target is auto-crit.

ahpook
05-15-2008, 12:50 PM
Agreed, Something should be done to change on-crit effects to have better balance.


Banishing- on a critical hit, extraplanar creatures with under 25 HD must pass Will DC 24 or instantly return home. For every point of Crit Mult above 2, the DC increases by 2 and the HD limit increases by 4.


I like the idea of changing the DC based on the crit multiplier. But the max HD on banishing shouldn't be affected or that makes picks definitely better and just goes to reverse the current problem once you hit quests of a certain level. (I would be fine with removing the banishing HD limit altogether though and handling everything with saves).

ahpook
05-15-2008, 12:55 PM
This is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.

No sane caster would bother to make a +3 heavy pick of puncturing or any other on crit only effect. Burst weapons? Sure, they account for the extra crit multiplier, and do damange on every blow, but puncturing or banishing? Nope.

So the problem is that the loot generators are far too random.

If you're going to include on crit only effects to low crit range weapons then those weapons should also be impact or keen as the most likely additional enhancement. If the loot tables generated weapons that made sense we wouldn't need to hammer the effects back into position like they're the doors on a K car.

I have never liked this argument. I prefer that sometimes the crafting goes awry and you get a bad result (like acid swords of oozebane). Not all crafters are experts. This might not fit with DnD but it makes sense for DDO.

This game relies on most loot being vendor trash or else it would need to drop the loot quantity down significantly. If most loot pulls were "good" everyone would have had what they needed a long time ago and would likely have quit playing.

TommyBoy
05-15-2008, 01:01 PM
excuse me what crit effects for axes. Last I checked the only one was smiting whereas piercing has punctering, banishing and smiting. Hey in pnp longswords are alot more powerful then ddo - if you want to fix something fix that.

enfeebling, smiting, banishing (i think i saw one in the ah)

Pellegro
05-15-2008, 01:06 PM
There is no denying that if the on crit effect is the same regardless of the weapon used, then obviously the "best" weapon to use to get the "on crit" effect is the one with the large crit range. In this game, that means rapiers for puncturing or scimitars for slashing. (Do any bludgeoning weapons have crit range of even 19-20?)

I think having these powerful effects limited to certain classes of weapons is reasonable because it creates rarity. I worry, for purposes of gameplay and balance, about the effect of boosting every weapon in the game to the same level for purposes of doing stat damage. If you did this, I'd think you'd then have to either undergo a total overhaul of mob's stats (by increasing them) or accept the fact that everyone is going to be running around with some kind of stat-damager.

The other factor not mentioned (I don't think) is that if you impose this stat-damaging equality, then I think what you will see is everyone running around with picks. They have equality on damage in the abstract (higher crit damage but lower occurrence), but when you factor in holds and other auto-crit conditions, picks pull ahead. So if they are in all instances otherwise equal, picks become the favored choice. You're simply substituting one favorite (rapiers) for a new one (picks). In the process you tick off all those who have paid through the nose and horded rapiers.

EDIT: I'd add, that at times, puncturing picks are better even than puncturing rapiers. My sorc used to be enchant specced (for a short while). I had the 2 feats, the +1 DC off item, and I would spam mass hold. Everyone in the quest would use picks. Its just an example (since not many casters are enchant specced), but shows that picks aren't totally worthless ...

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 01:10 PM
(I would be fine with removing the banishing HD limit altogether though and handling everything with saves).
Yes, as a separate issue I think the hard HD limit on banishing should be removed, and monsters instead get a bonus to the saving throw based on their HD. That would make Banishing weapons work in a manner equivalent to the Banishment spell, which obviously they were based on.

Laith
05-15-2008, 01:13 PM
(Do any bludgeoning weapons have crit range of even 19-20?)heavy flails which (of course) aren't in DDO. Never understood why the normal flail wasn't 19-20.

as if bludgeoning didn't have enough marks against it, eh?

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 01:16 PM
The other factor not mentioned (I don't think) is that if you impose this stat-damaging equality, then I think what you will see is everyone running around with picks. They have equality on damage in the abstract (higher crit damage but lower occurrence), but when you factor in holds and other auto-crit conditions, picks pull ahead.
Notice that I intentionally avoided bringing them to true equality. My suggestion is for puncturing picks to do 1d6+2d4 con damage, which (without keen) means 6.5 con per 20 swings. An existing puncturing rapier does 10.5 con per 20 swings, so even after this modification, rapiers would still be better overall. But at least the pick would get something to boost it up in the direction of the rapier, instead of just being a horrible waste of metal.

Besides that, rapiers gain more damage from Bloodstones, and there are two races with enhancements for rapier damage, but none for picks.


You're simply substituting one favorite (rapiers) for a new one (picks). In the process you tick off all those who have paid through the nose and horded rapiers.
Part of the reason my suggestion still leaves rapiers as #1.

Pellegro
05-15-2008, 01:22 PM
Besides that, rapiers gain more damage from Bloodstones.


OK I'm slow ... how is that? I thought rapiers got +12 [6x2] points of damage per hit from +6 seeker, while Picks would get 24 [6x4]?

Angelus_dead
05-15-2008, 01:36 PM
OK I'm slow ... how is that? I thought rapiers got +12 [6x2] points of damage per hit from +6 seeker, while Picks would get 24 [6x4]?
It's because Seeker damage scales proportionate to Crit Mult, instead of (Crit Mult-1). Effects like Flaming Burst use (Crit Mult-1), which is fair to rapiers and picks.

Here are numbers. With Imp Crit, a pick crits 19-20 or 2/20, and a rapier crits 15-20 or 6/20. A Bloodstone adds +24 damage to pick crits and +12 to rapier crits. So over 20 attack swings, the pick gains 24 * 2/20 = 48/20 and the rapier gains 12 * 6/20 = 72/20. 72 is more than 48, so the rapier wins.

In the case of the Seeker enhancement, the devs gave weapon-fairness a lower priority than enhancement-fairness. If they had made Bloodstone give +6 to rapiers and +18 to picks, then Seeker would be fair between the different kinds of weapons- but the overall worth of the Seeker property would be reduced, and Seeker was already underpowered compared to other magic effects.

Tanka
05-15-2008, 05:41 PM
banishing (i think i saw one in the ah)
You didn't. The only Banishing slasher is the longsword (Enduring Conviction) from the Abbot raid.

KristovK
05-15-2008, 06:23 PM
Why are you trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

If anything, they should redo the effects on weapons to fit PnP descriptions, which would power down a number of them, which would naturally annoy the largest amount of people in the least amount of time. Which is only different from your proposal in that yours would annoy less people overall in the least amount of time.

Smiting..not a weapon property, only exists on a specific named item, a mace, no saving throw on a crit vs constructs, x4 damage vs Outsiders on crit. Puncturing, doesn't exist as a weapon property either, only exists on a specific named rapier, touch attack 3x a day for 1d6 damage. Disruption is only possible on blunt weapons. Enfeebling, Bone Breaking, Maladriot, Weakening..don't exist. And lets not forget, no acid elemental weapons, and Body Feeder and Life Shield and Shattermantle don't exist, no Vertigo or Shatter(some weapons simply add to the abilities, it's not a magical property, it's how the weapon is designed), and no Banishing or Paralyzing. Pretty much all of the Power V weapons are creations of DDO, Vorpal being the only exception, and the only stat damaging magical enhancement is Wounding.

Of course, as I said, switching to that would annoy the largest amount of people in the least amount of time....

BlueLightBandit
05-15-2008, 07:50 PM
Not all npc's are as ridiculously wealthy as the average DDO player.

So some adventurer may have a need for an acid weapon, and an ooze weapon, but only enough money to add them to one weapon. Since money is an issue that same adventurer may only have access to a shortsword.

Thus the acid shortsword of ooze bane is born.

Of course it's not gonna happen every day, but then again isn't that what D&D is all about?

maddmatt70
05-15-2008, 10:01 PM
Why are you trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

If anything, they should redo the effects on weapons to fit PnP descriptions, which would power down a number of them, which would naturally annoy the largest amount of people in the least amount of time. Which is only different from your proposal in that yours would annoy less people overall in the least amount of time.

Smiting..not a weapon property, only exists on a specific named item, a mace, no saving throw on a crit vs constructs, x4 damage vs Outsiders on crit. Puncturing, doesn't exist as a weapon property either, only exists on a specific named rapier, touch attack 3x a day for 1d6 damage. Disruption is only possible on blunt weapons. Enfeebling, Bone Breaking, Maladriot, Weakening..don't exist. And lets not forget, no acid elemental weapons, and Body Feeder and Life Shield and Shattermantle don't exist, no Vertigo or Shatter(some weapons simply add to the abilities, it's not a magical property, it's how the weapon is designed), and no Banishing or Paralyzing. Pretty much all of the Power V weapons are creations of DDO, Vorpal being the only exception, and the only stat damaging magical enhancement is Wounding.

Of course, as I said, switching to that would annoy the largest amount of people in the least amount of time....

I agree I am at a loss as to why they created any of the special weapon types other then the ones in the pnp. When the weapon types first came out way back when in ddo they might have generated excitement, but at this point? It along with the souped up potency and devotion items have led to mob inflation which has in turn led to more of a need for these weapons; hence, a cycle has emerged. This current mod has seen the reliance on these weapons take an even greater turn: banishing, smiting, wounding, vorpals. Really trash mobs have never been so little fun for melee and have never demonstrated so little melee skill to kill then in this mod. Where are the melee tactics from trip to decisions regarding the variablility of weapon types. The OP's suggestions are to make these weapon more available - weapons which are really stagnating the game.