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Geonis
05-06-2008, 06:49 AM
The WDA this week states they are down to final tweaks and polishing.

Well, I came here asking after the first WDA, if this was all the "Pally Love" we were getting.

The thread was closed shortly thereafter because of flamers and trolls, spouting about how we just needed to wait.

Well, I kept up the argument for a while, and it appears the "Pally Love" is complete. :confused:

I just wish it didn't make me feel so dirty afterwards, I guess I should have at least held out for dinner before. :(



Edit: GPK, you kept up an admirable fight, it just came to a losing effort in the end.

PS. I know there are others who participated in the fight, but there are too many to list them all.

Yaga_Nub
05-06-2008, 07:23 AM
There's still the first look and final release notes.

I hope you start new threads after each of them as well.

Hvymetal
05-06-2008, 07:31 AM
There's still the first look and final release notes.

I hope you start new threads after each of them as well.To be honest though do you really believe there will be anything of substance in them? Personally, I doubt it, fight is lost till another two years or so......... :(

Yaga_Nub
05-06-2008, 07:49 AM
To be honest though do you really believe there will be anything of substance in them? Personally, I doubt it, fight is lost till another two years or so......... :(

No and that's why I hope he starts threads after the First Look and Final Release notes.

Hvymetal
05-06-2008, 08:07 AM
No and that's why I hope he starts threads after the First Look and Final Release notes.

Gotcha ;) Sorry my sarcasm detector misfired:o

Serpent
05-06-2008, 02:48 PM
Well its coming down to this. If pally love is a bust then pally might have to go bye just to free up a slot so I can dabble in something else. Oh btw, we should just call this mod monk love. Rogues are still number 1 dps now and will be after, so rogue love is just rogue extend. I seriously hope monks suck.

RTN
05-06-2008, 02:54 PM
I'll wait until the first look and final release notes come out. There is often a lot there that wasn't covered in the WDA. So far, I like some changes and not others, but not enough to make me really happy.

Mhykke
05-06-2008, 04:06 PM
I still don't get it.

The devs added enhancements like virt./warch./spellsing./ for bards, way of lines for rogues, tempest/deepwood sniper for rangers......figured the easiest "pally love" they could've done is given paladins a specialty enhancement line....maybe one for offensive paladins, one for defensive, and one for casting paladins.

Seems as though that would've been the logical thing to do.

Really amazed.

Eladrin
05-06-2008, 04:13 PM
I still don't get it.

The devs added enhancements like virt./warch./spellsing./ for bards, way of lines for rogues, tempest/deepwood sniper for rangers......figured the easiest "pally love" they could've done is given paladins a specialty enhancement line....maybe one for offensive paladins, one for defensive, and one for casting paladins.

Seems as though that would've been the logical thing to do.

Really amazed.
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

Aesop
05-06-2008, 04:15 PM
Also no Spells that I've seen ...for anyone... maybe the slight upgrade to Holy Sword... but that still ain't uite what we are lookin for

Aesop

ArkoHighStar
05-06-2008, 04:29 PM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

too bad it woudl have been nice to see it in mod 7, is there an estimate

Serpent
05-06-2008, 04:32 PM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

The question I have is why call this mod pally love then say this little gem just before the mod goes live. Shouldn't this have been stated long ago. Not trying to complain. Its just hard to hear things like this after all that has been said by so many parties.

Mhykke
05-06-2008, 04:32 PM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.


Thanks Eladrin!

Less to look forward for paladins for this mod, but if this is on the books to be added at some point, I'm happy.

Good news.

Eladrin
05-06-2008, 04:35 PM
The question I have is why call this mod pally love then say this little gem just before the mod goes live. Shouldn't this have been stated long ago. Not trying to complain. Its just hard to hear things like this after all that has been said by so many parties.
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Mhykke
05-06-2008, 04:36 PM
The question I have is why call this mod pally love then say this little gem just before the mod goes live. Shouldn't this have been stated long ago. Not trying to complain. Its just hard to hear things like this after all that has been said by so many parties.


To be fair (and I've been a critic on the devs on this issue), Eladrin stated that devs thought these lines were incorporated somewhat in what paladins already had. Coming from this viewpoint, they would've thought a minor tweak (aside from the reduction in APs) would have been all that is necessary. Thanks to all the paladin criticisms, the devs changed their minds on specialty enhancements after announcing the changes.

The changes they were putting in were for mod 7. The criticisms came, and they realized they need to add these lines. It's too late for mod 7. At least they realized they needed to add these, and will come (hopefully sooner rather than later.)

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

QFT.
QFE.
QFF!

Wutinni
05-06-2008, 04:40 PM
This is not an attack, merely a question as I have no high level Paladins. Exactly what is wrong with the class as it stands now (and with the upgrades coming in the new Mod)???

A common theme I've seen posted is that Paladin will still be a "Splash" class, in that nobody will play a Pure pally. Please feel free to correct me but imo the only reasons players wouldnt be happy with thier Paladin builds would be as follows.....

Lack of DPS/Kills - Although the new mod will help this (situationally) why should a Paladin be on par with a Fighter or Barbarian? If Paladins were able to keep up then the only thing a Barbarian would have as a Pro would be 2 more hp per level. Paladins get great saves, Self healing capabilities and better AC (on average).

Lack of Diversity - Its been mentioned that classes such as Ranger and Rogue have far more usefull enhancement lines to allow better builds. If this is the reason for "Pally Love" then have a look at the fighter and Barbarian special enhancement lines (oh that's right they don't have any!)

To summarize: Paladins are a great class and we should not try to make them something they are not. If I have missed something, please post below so I can better understand the outrage that you Paladins are voicing.

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 04:41 PM
The WDA this week states they are down to final tweaks and polishing.

Well, I came here asking after the first WDA, if this was all the "Pally Love" we were getting.

The thread was closed shortly thereafter because of flamers and trolls, spouting about how we just needed to wait.

Well, I kept up the argument for a while, and it appears the "Pally Love" is complete. :confused:

I just wish it didn't make me feel so dirty afterwards, I guess I should have at least held out for dinner before. :(



Edit: GPK, you kept up an admirable fight, it just came to a losing effort in the end.

PS. I know there are others who participated in the fight, but there are too many to list them all.


Geonis you little Drama queen. ;) Nice post! :p

creithne
05-06-2008, 04:42 PM
At least they went to the trouble of "lieing" about the paladin love...fighters weren't even given that much...

Angelus_dead
05-06-2008, 04:49 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?
I am composing a detailed response (and it will be its own thread). But in brief: It seems that mod 7 Pal16 or Pal15/X1 builds will be relatively worse than Pal12/X2/Y2 builds than they are now. Or if they're not worse, then their position will not improve.

Remember- the question is not "Is the paladin class weak across all levels?", but "Once I have 11-13 Paladin levels, is there an incentive to take any more?"

Dungnmaster001
05-06-2008, 04:52 PM
At least they went to the trouble of "lieing" about the paladin love...fighters weren't even given that much...

That's because it's not their turn yet. Sheesh I hear this all the time and it's getting very old. They can't update every class in one mod. This time it's the Rogues and Pallies turn. Likely next up is fighters with arcane casters probably last. Yeah it sucks that it will take that long but someone has to be last. If it wasn't fighters there'd be another class here screaming about how neglected they are. Give them time you will likely get your update in one of the next mods.

Angelus_dead
05-06-2008, 04:54 PM
At least they went to the trouble of "lieing" about the paladin love...fighters weren't even given that much...
True. Fighters need some help too, and it would not take much effort. First they find the combat feats which suck, and make them not suck. For starters that means Improved Sunder and Slicing Blow. Then you go to some of the D&D books which include good combat feats, and add some of them (like Blind-Fighting). Then find some good non-combat feats, and also add them (like Font of Life).

Finally you add a few enhancements requiring level 13+ of fighter. They should be cheap and give minor benefits to certain combat tasks (like Fighter Improved Expertise, Fighter Improved Dodge, and Fighter Extended Intimidate).

Naturally, there are other cool things which could be added for fighters that would call for a little more work. But aspects of the above could be accomplished with just minor work.

artvan_delet
05-06-2008, 05:03 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

I agree that Paladins are no worse off. The reduction in cost of BOG should benefit almost every paladin. The holy sword upgrade should help many non-uber twinked paladins. We did take a hit on the number of smites, but they regen, so I'll call that a wash. The first tier of exalted smite is nice, after that it costs too much. Some paladins may take LOH raise dead, but it costs APs and investment in Heal enhancement. I'd rather use my clickies, and use my LOH to keep players alive and buffed. Divine sacrafice is not worth much of anything to me, and I don't want to spend APs on it, so no help there.

For my toon, I get some APs back from BOG 3, but I have to spend them back to get extra smite and exalted smite I. So in the end, I'll get a minor upgrade for smites. That's it.

Here are two fundamental problems with the dev line of thinking. 1) All these upgrades cost APs that I have to divert from other things I had taken. So I lose effectiveness somewhere else. And the upgrades are not that great and too expensive, so not worth the cost. 2) Still no redress for being pure, except that the high level paladins have spend numerous APs for upgrades that are not worth the cost. So in my mind, there has been very little given to pure paladins. No one said it was required, but I'm starting to regret being pure. I should have gone at least 14 pally, 2 fighter.

Angelus_dead
05-06-2008, 05:06 PM
I agree that Paladins are no worse off. The reduction in cost of BOG should benefit almost every paladin.
It does benefit every Paladin- and that's the problem.

You see, the complaint "Paladins need love" is inaccurate if you interpret "Paladin" to mean "every character with at least one level in Paladin". To be correct about it, the help is needed by Pure Paladins and mostly-pure Paladins (characters who might splash 1-2 levels of another class, but would like to have the big majority of their levels in paladin).

artvan_delet
05-06-2008, 05:13 PM
It does benefit every Paladin- and that's the problem.

You see, the complaint "Paladins need love" is inaccurate if you interpret "Paladin" to mean "every character with at least one level in Paladin". To be correct about it, the help is needed by Pure Paladins and mostly-pure Paladins (characters who might splash 1-2 levels of another class, but would like to have the big majority of their levels in paladin).

I don't think it's a "problem" if it benefits every paladin. And, as you stated, you only get the BOG 2,3 savings if you are high enough to qualify for BOG 2,3. So it benefits mid-to-high level paladins. But I agree, as noted in my post, that there's nothing here for my pure pally that I wouldn't get as a 14-2 split.

Serpent
05-06-2008, 05:21 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Do i believe they are worse off, no. I don't think they are any better. The actual costs being reduced was nice but that is jsut a return to what we had 2 years ago. The costs for the actual new enhancements seem to out way the actual effects of the enhancements themselves. If a paladin wants to get the most out of his smites, granted I have not actually seen them in use since Risia is not updated, they will have to spend an exorbitant amount of AP just to achieve it.


Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.[/LIST]
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I:
Prereqs: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. (3 second cool down)
Paladin Divine Sacrifice II:
Prereqs: Paladin level 12, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, Paladin Extra Smiting III, 42 Action Points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 7d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.
Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (5 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Cool down drops to 4 seconds.)
Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (Cooldown drops to 3 seconds.)
Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health. (30 second cooldown.)
Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.


By scaling down the AC and resistance aura you gain 12AP, 4 of which is then spent on the new level 4 aura. I might be in the minority right now but +1 AC does not = game winning content. True it is nice and all paladin's appreciate it but frankly it is not a deal breaker.

Now we have 8 AP left to buy all the other items we want. Well paladins are already a little tight for AP. I realize that this is an old excuses and that we do not need to choose all the same enhancements but for the sake of end game content lets say we do. First of all the Paladin Redemption enhancement will hardly be used. to achieve the first level you have to spend AP on devotional enhancements, something almost no paladin does. say you do spend to get the first level you have to spend a total of 3 AP (4 for redemption + 2 for devotion 2). We only had 8 ap left so now we are at 2 AP. For 2 AP I can afford to add the first level of maybe the new divine sacrifice, maybe the first level only.

We could go another route and plan to take divine sacrifice. Most would probably only take the first level since the additional AP for the second level for only 2d6 damage looks to be not worth it. Now this would only cost you 1 AP to achieve since most people have the prereqs meet. We have 8 AP left before and now we have 7. i could possibly afford the first 2 levels exalted smite maybe even level 3 but I might have to drop something somewhere along the line. So do i drop toughness enhancement so i can afford something else.

But lets consider I get everything I want in there redemption 1, divine 2, exalted 3, what do I have. I still have my same old paladin. Sure now I can raise dead by using my LOH, I have UMD and I could do that before, many paladins could. When I smite I can do a decent amount of damage, if I crit. I don;t mind that addition but it just seems to limited.

There is for lack of a better word no style. He's still a paladin, behind in damage, with no option to rectify that. landing smites is great but as it has been stated in other thread other classes can equal the damage just by buying attack speed boost for 1 AP. What PRC enhancements would have offered is a chance for a paladin to be different from person to person. The faith based enhancements were not that great and to consider them a PRC is kind of disheartening. the Sovereign Host one is probably the best and it gives us prof with long swords, something we already have. Mind you very few people use a long sword unless its a very special kind. so for the AP spent we were able to not suffer the touch of dolrutth.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. It just seems when the other classes got looked at they were given some really meaningful content that allowed individual players to stand out. The new paladin enhancements just don't offer that. Now introduction of a PRC or three would have been great. Some things that come to mind would be a Marshal PRC, Devoted Defender PRC and even a PRC that had an effect against a specific type of evil alignment or a monster such as evil outsider.

One last thing, I know spells haven't been released but I'm hoping that a paladin has access to something special. Often spells make a character stand out, even more fun to play. Holy sword is a neat spell but hardly a great idea considering the components don't stack and most players gave up long ago using it. Some might start but its hardly worth it to most at this point. It's kind of like Merfolk's Blessing, more fun to cast for the toilet flush laugh then for the actual ability it offers.

I realize this is very long winded but i hope I offered some insight into where I am coming from.

gpk
05-06-2008, 05:23 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Wait, do you mean to tell me we're NOT getting any pally only spell compendium spells? THIS IS IT?

Hmm is the 1 AP/tier reduction a pally specific thing? The only "worthwhile" thing I can with those action points take is Bulwark of Good 4.

So let's see, 20 Actions point of level 18 Exalted and Extra smites that can't even match 1 action point level 1 fighter or rog haste boost in "burst" damage over 140 seconds , is this an example of my Pally being better off?

So for those "easy" fights, me losing 10 hit points trying to do a some extra damage vs DDO inflated mobs is a good thing?

Wasting APs and LoH trying to raise ppl ? Who asked for this? Who wanted this?

Honestly MANY people can go into excruciatingly painful detail on how your proposed pally love is anything but, in fact most have and it fell on deaf dev ears, as has anything pally related.

I'm curious who was responsible for Mod6 Ranger Love? Why didn't the more needy paladins get the same quality of love given by 1 little fabricated ranger spell?

Keep your reduced AP Auras and give us some proper, needed and GOOD spells.
Give us pure pallies a class respec and we'll be better off, or just unbind our raid loot and cough-up our tomes.

Mhykke
05-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Wait, do you mean to tell me we're NOT getting any pally only spell compendium spells? THIS IS IT?

Hmm is the 1 AP/tier reduction a pally specific thing? The only "worthwhile" thing I can with those action points take is Bulwark of Good 4.

So let's see, 20 Actions point of level 18 Exalted and Extra smites that can't even match 1 action point level 1 fighter or rog haste boost in "burst" damage over 140 seconds , is my Pally being better off?

So for those "easy" fights, me losing 10 hit points trying to do a some extra damage vs DDO inflated mobs is a good thing?

Wasting APs and LoH tryign to raise ppl ? Who asked for this? Who wanted this?

Honestly MANY people can go into excrutiatingly painful detail on how your proposed pally love is anything but, in fact most have and it fell on deaf dev ears, as has anything pally related.

I'm curious who was responsible for Mod6 Ranger Love? Why didn't the more needy paladins get the same quality of love given by 1 little fabricated ranger spell?

Give us pure pallies a class respec and we'll be better off, or just unbind our raid loot and cough-up our tomes.

While it's not what we were hoping for, I think we can take comfort in the fact it hasn't fallen on deaf ears. Eladrin stated they changed their minds and will be implementing specialty lines. Sure it won't be for this mod, but at least we can be satisfied that the criticisms were heard, and more changes will come (hopefully sooner rather than later.)

gpk
05-06-2008, 05:31 PM
Yeah and since the devs have adopted a slower 4 month dev cycle with no mid-mod updates what's that mean , mod8 for MAYBE something decent? Unnactepable, we've endured a year of "not yet, wailt till mod7" from both the devs and the eternal fanbois and look what we got?
Every mod since mod4 the pally class has become relatively weaker and weaker and most haven't played theirs at all this mod. This so called "pally love" doesn't change that at all.

Let this be a lesson to fighters, speak now, LOUDLY or continue to get the shaft.

Serpent
05-06-2008, 05:35 PM
Let this be a lesson to fighters, speak now, LOUDLY or continue to get the shaft.

At this rate my fighter is not expecting much. For every person that says we have a problem there are 2 that say problem, where, oh look, a shiney. The redux of classes should have been and still can be done on a 1 for 1 basis instead of one class at a time. Imagine warchanter and tempest in same mod, then spellsinger and arcane archer in next. If one prc enhance or new enhancement line is introduced for each class per mod we would have a greater sense of well rounded class society.

Rickpa
05-06-2008, 05:46 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?


Probably not.

I had a level 15 paladin who was great up to that level, but couldn't survive module 6 content. Even with Holy Sword being as uber a weapon as there could possibly be, the pit find would probably have killed my paladin with his flatulence alone. Anyway, I deleted my pally so I could experiment with other builds, and whatever you do with that class in the future will have no immediate impact on my play.

Paladins (who aren't dwarfs) simply don't have the AC or hit points to play beyond level 14. So until you fix those, it doesn't matter if paladins get the best sword ever, or the best damn smite ever.

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 07:14 PM
Yeah and since the devs have adopted a slower 4 month dev cycle with no mid-mod updates what's that mean , mod8 for MAYBE something decent? Unnactepable, we've endured a year of "not yet, wailt till mod7" from both the devs and the eternal fanbois and look what we got?
Every mod since mod4 the pally class has become relatively weaker and weaker and most haven't player theirs at all this mod. This so called "pally love" doesn't change that at all.

Let this be a lesson to fighters, speak now, LOUDLY or continue to get the shaft.

Just delete your Paladin, play something else. When Paladin becomes to your liking again, delete something else, reroll paladin.

Gum
05-06-2008, 07:18 PM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

:) Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you. Did I mention thank you? lol

This is very good/exciting news. I realize it's to late for this mod, but that's fine. I'm just pleased it's coming in

a future mod. Most excellent. ;)

P.S. Gumlaw said to give the devs a big Lawful bear hug for him!

gpk
05-06-2008, 07:30 PM
Just delete your Paladin, play something else. When Paladin becomes to your liking again, delete something else, reroll paladin.

Hey here's a better idea, how bout the devs actually deliver what they promised?

Sertrynus
05-06-2008, 07:34 PM
Hey here's a better idea, how bout the devs actually deliver what they promised?

I wouldn't hold my breath on that dude

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 07:52 PM
Hey here's a better idea, how bout the devs actually deliver what they promised?

Hey here's an even better idea, if you don't like what's happening, really show the devs you mean business and cancel your account.

Kisaragi
05-06-2008, 07:52 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Without testing the hp cost for the benefits, it's impossible to tell. However, it does seem that paladins might burn up HPs pretty fast, especially if they're on the front lines with other tanks. Bodyfeeder doesn't seem to come on quality weapons such Adamantine, Pure Good, Transmuting, Silver, etc. So a +5 Bodyfeeder might really help, but I don't really see those...ever...

Not that I see much of anything else in terms of loot quality.

gpk
05-06-2008, 07:53 PM
Hey here's an even better idea, if you don't like what's happening, really show the devs you mean business and cancel your account.

Don't worry I'm sure there will be repercussions.
Bu hey let's not actually fix class imbalances and broken raids and other serious issues, the forum fanbois tell us it's all ok.

Keep trolling, it's funny on so many levels.

Ralmeth
05-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Hi Eladrin,

Thank you so much for responding on this. I love playing DDO and have been playing a Paladin most of that time. Some of the new enhancements look nice (I really like the reduction in AP cost for the auras...I'll have to try the other new enhancements to see how I like them but they do look expensive in AP cost). However, I've found that you can build a more powerful Paladin by only taking 11 or 12 levels of Paladin, and the other levels in things like Fighter and/or Rogue. If there were some other cool things you could get by going with more levels of Paladin higher than 11 or 12 levels that would be great!

For example,
-What about allowing divine favor go up to a max +5 to hit / +5 to damage like in PnP? This could easily benefit more levels in Paladin.
-Other enhancements or spells that increase your AC? That way you could get a better AC without having to have uber loot.

Thanks,
Ralmeth

bobbryan2
05-06-2008, 08:27 PM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

Heh.

Yeah.. there weeeeere the specialty lines... then they rolled up a cleric or paladin and realized that the faith lines suck.

:D

Why not release domain enhancement lines for clerics? That could serve very well as a port for domains in this game and for specialty lines.

Angelus_dead
05-06-2008, 08:27 PM
So a +5 Bodyfeeder might really help, but I don't really see those...ever...
+5 Bodyfeeder could not help, because it would mean you're not using a +5 Holy Burst instead. Holy Burst would give you damage on every hit, without sacrificing your own health, without spending APs on it, and without clicking an icon every ~10 seconds.

The whole concept of using Bodyfeeder to pay for the hp cost of Divine Sacrifice is a trap.

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 08:28 PM
Don't worry I'm sure there will be repercussions.
Bu hey let's not actually fix class imbalances and broken raids and other serious issues, the forum fanbois tell us it's all ok.

Keep trolling, it's funny on so many levels.

The original post was a troll, so I'm keeping it on topic.

bobbryan2
05-06-2008, 08:30 PM
+5 Bodyfeeder could not help, because it would mean you're not using a +5 Holy Burst instead. Holy Burst would give you damage on every hit, without sacrificing your own health, without spending APs on it, and without clicking an icon every ~10 seconds.

The whole concept of using Bodyfeeder to pay for the hp cost of Divine Sacrifice is a trap.

Agreed... the ridiculous idea that somehow you'll be better off by clicking an icon every 10 seconds (and probably interrupting all combat chains in the process) and using a less powerful weapon in the process...

Yeah...

Asirin
05-06-2008, 08:43 PM
+5 Bodyfeeder could not help, because it would mean you're not using a +5 Holy Burst instead. Holy Burst would give you damage on every hit, without sacrificing your own health, without spending APs on it, and without clicking an icon every ~10 seconds.

The whole concept of using Bodyfeeder to pay for the hp cost of Divine Sacrifice is a trap.
And people assumed Necropotence was a bad card too....Oh sorry wrong website heh....Dont mind me...

gpk
05-06-2008, 09:24 PM
The whole concept of using Bodyfeeder to pay for the hp cost of Divine Sacrifice is a trap.


It's more than just a trap; if only a player had said that the responses to this statement would have been quite different.

In fact all of these supposed mod7 pally related "additions" are based arounds myths and erroneous assumptions and observations, here are just a few:

-Divine Sacrifice has synergy with bodyfeeder and virtue.

-paladins are the last ones standing when things "go all pear-shaped"

-There exists a "feel of the Paladin coming in during difficult situations to save the day"

-Smite Evils in their base form are anything but useless therefore only a minor and very weak tweak is needed

-Divine Sacrifice is a good spell and is good for those "easier" fights.

-If you've waited a YEAR for a class to be fixed, waiting another 4 months is OK.

-Paladins needed/desired a raise dead ability that requires enhancements noone takes and uses up the precious few LoHs

-Paladins like recycled cleric faith lines


Then there are the new myths and erroneous assumptions and observations :

-16-20 AP of level 18 Exalted Smites and Extra Smite's not being able to match a level 1 speed boost costing 1 AP is acceptable.

-Everybody loves Vicious (new TV show on CBS coming this fall)

-It's ok to boost class X to make up for overpowerring class Y, but it's ok to continue to ignore classes W and Z

-etc etc

Tallyn
05-06-2008, 09:57 PM
-If you've waited a YEAR for a class to be fixed, waiting another 4 months is OK.


Ever hear the phrase, "Don't hold your breath"? Perhaps you may want to breathe again now, and forget about Paladins. They suck. They should just remove them from the game :D

gpk
05-07-2008, 12:11 AM
[...]and forget about Paladins. They suck. They should just remove them from the game :D
Well clearly Eladrin agrees with you, they are working hard to make sure you're right.

gpk
05-07-2008, 12:15 AM
The Faith lines were considered the "specialty lines" for Clerics and Paladins.

We've changed our minds on that, so it's quite likely that we'll be adding Paladin specialty enhancements in a future update.

Why on earth would the "faith lines" be considered as a "specialty line" for a Paladin (nvm clerics) ?

GeneralDiomedes
05-07-2008, 12:23 AM
Why on earth would the "faith lines" be considered as a "specialy line" for a Paladin (nvm clerics) ?

Because no other class can have them? Because they grant abilities no other class can have?

C'mon. You're a level 18 Paladin Advocate .. but some things Are What They Are.

gpk
05-07-2008, 12:27 AM
Ya unfortunately pretty much everything "new" suffers from "it is what it is", and the "it" is ****.

I'm so utterly baffled by so many recent pally related dev posts I don't know what to think anymore.

Kisaragi
05-07-2008, 03:01 AM
If you don't know what to think about Paladins, you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Start by not thinking. Any recommendations are about six miles wide of hitting a developer squarely in the ear and being heard.

Here's the simple facts;
If you're hoping a paladin will compare to fighter/barbarian, play a fighter/barbarian.
If you think you're going to be compensated eventually by playing a pure paladin, just stop now.
If you think that mod 7, mod 8, mod 56 will make Paladins equal to other tanking classes, paladin is not for you.

The developers have their delusions of insanity, ie 'When things go pear shaped paladins can save the situation.' I don't know about the rest of you, but the only thing my paladin does well is screaming like a little girl to the cleric to heal me while I suck down wands like they're going out of fashion (no offense to little girls or wizards is intended when reading this, as I play a wizard)

The real fact is, there really won't be an attempt to make paladins more 'successful' as a tank because they're afraid to do what they did to barbarians and improved critical. It will become a class combination like so many others, a more difficult option.

You play a pure paladin to cap. Great. You should be proud, but that's all your going to get. Anything extra ain't going to happen.

I mean, if they were serious about improving the game, the loot system would have been fixed about five some mods ago.

jjflanigan
05-07-2008, 06:48 AM
I just can't believe how rude and childish some of you are acting.

They thought what they were doing was in line with what was needed for paladins.

People yelled that they were wrong.

They admit that they were wrong but that they don't have time to make the required changes in this dev cycle for Mod 7.

And now you come in and say "THE DEVS DON'T CARE! PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUIT! THEY WANT PALADINS TO SUCK!"

They obviously care because they listened and are going to make changes in accordance with the player's requests. Why can't you just read things that are said and take them for what they are? Why do you have to all be such drama queens and put words into Turbine's mouth that were never uttered AND make dire proclamations like you do every time anything in the game goes against what you think should happen (and you've been wrong every time you said a change was going to destroy the game, by the way...oh and you've also never actually left the game like you say people who care will do, just in case you hadn't noticed).

And yes, I know this post is pointless since I'm not jumping on the "TURBINE SUCKS" bandwagon so I must not have a valid point.

Roxie
05-07-2008, 07:00 AM
i have a 16 pallie reapper He can keep up with a fighters kills easy with only a 26 str but i also have a 22 wisdom and a 32 chr. The pallie build was fine for a long time he can still solo and heal and even has a high umd. The main problem people see with pallies are that they are suppose to have the highest ac and nnow adays Ac in the game does not mader. Pallies before they changed the lvl cap from 12-14 were the best class. They had to lower them but they lowered them just a little to much raise there ac up a little more and give them abilities that only a pure pallie can get. pallies are suppose to be the most deadly to evil/undead but they really are not how many pallies do you see use there lay on hands on un dead they rather keep them to heal them self. All ddo has to do is give them some abilities that only a high lvl pallie can get.

Roxie
05-07-2008, 07:03 AM
or his another thing you want to make pallies better make turning work no body goes a turn undead build cause it does not work fix that and pallies will be fine

Holgar
05-07-2008, 07:11 AM
I have a level 16 pally/rogue (11 paladin / 5 rogue) who can DPS pretty well, but the sneak attacks are a big helper. Personally, I am excited by the Exalted Smite enhancements because they are virtually free (since I am getting 7 discounted Action Points for my Bulward of Good Armor I, II, & III and Bulwark of Good Saves I). However, I agree that it's not enough. Paladins need more AC! I think the easiest "fix" to make paladins unique and enjoyable is to give them increased AC as they level (perhaps one free point of AC every 4 or 5 levels). This is in addition to whatever is spent on enhancements. This will allow Paladins to become the uber-AC class without further benefiting Paladin splash classes.

Holgar

Holgar
05-07-2008, 07:21 AM
This is not an attack, merely a question as I have no high level Paladins. Exactly what is wrong with the class as it stands now (and with the upgrades coming in the new Mod)???

A common theme I've seen posted is that Paladin will still be a "Splash" class, in that nobody will play a Pure pally. Please feel free to correct me but imo the only reasons players wouldnt be happy with thier Paladin builds would be as follows.....

Lack of DPS/Kills - Although the new mod will help this (situationally) why should a Paladin be on par with a Fighter or Barbarian? If Paladins were able to keep up then the only thing a Barbarian would have as a Pro would be 2 more hp per level. Paladins get great saves, Self healing capabilities and better AC (on average).

Lack of Diversity - Its been mentioned that classes such as Ranger and Rogue have far more usefull enhancement lines to allow better builds. If this is the reason for "Pally Love" then have a look at the fighter and Barbarian special enhancement lines (oh that's right they don't have any!)

To summarize: Paladins are a great class and we should not try to make them something they are not. If I have missed something, please post below so I can better understand the outrage that you Paladins are voicing.

Wutinni, the problem is that Paladins aren't much better at one particular aspect of the game than any others. They are great for soloing early IMO, but in the endgame of DDO, there tends to be a focus on specialization. Paladins generally do NOT have better AC than other melee classes, btw, because their auras are matched by fighters' Armor Mastery Enhancements. I have a Dwarven Paladin (who combines the Auras with Dwarven Armor Mastery), but for most Paladins, this is not an option.

I think the issue is that, while Paladins imo are quite awesome during the early and mid levels, they begin to wane somewhat during the upper mid levels, and do not have the level of specialization that is expected during the endgame (read: Shroud).

Thanks,

Holgar

Serpent
05-07-2008, 07:33 AM
And yes, I know this post is pointless since I'm not jumping on the "TURBINE SUCKS" bandwagon so I must not have a valid point.

You do have a valid point. What I find difficult to understand is if you only have a level 2 paladin multi-class how can you understand what pure pally and near pure pally players are saying. We were told one thing then we get something that is underwhelming and costly to implement.

llevenbaxx
05-07-2008, 07:43 AM
I dont think the faith lines compare in overall usefulness to the other PrC type lines. They are cheaper but imho only add minor perks, nothing to build around like the other lines. If you took away the healing restriction on the Bladesworn that would be the closest thing you have to a PrC... but you completely hobbled it and its only fluff now.:)

Personnally I think pallys are only slightly better off, mostly due to the AP reduction. None of the other new lines will end up on my character on a permanent basis though I will try them out. Too much buck, not enough bang...:)

When figuring the future PrC lines for pallys please dont offer three choices that all focus in one direction(defense). Look at the many that are out there and take the ones that offer the most diversity in character customization. Not everyone built a max AC pally, maybe it was the option to take Bladesworn, but it seemed you guys planned on branching out and letting us decide what are character were to be... Thank you for the feedback though, I was starting to really be on the fence with mine, its going to be him or my BC that get the delete in order to make a monk.

Aesop
05-07-2008, 08:07 AM
You do have a valid point. What I find difficult to understand is if you only have a level 2 paladin multi-class how can you understand what pure pally and near pure pally players are saying. We were told one thing then we get something that is underwhelming and costly to implement.

I think the point is regardless of what "you" (using the generic not directed here) are trying to say there isn't a real reason to be rude about it. You can say that you are truly disappointed and feel that the improvments are greatly lacking without saying "you suck"

I myself love rogues but I understand what the Pallies are saying about the love being... underwhelming. I was really hoping to see some better spells implemented and maybe Divine Might and Divine Shield... didn't happen sadly

Aesop

Missing_Minds
05-07-2008, 08:20 AM
Ya unfortunately pretty much everything "new" suffers from "it is what it is", and the "it" is ****.

I'm so utterly baffled by so many recent pally related dev posts I don't know what to think anymore.

How about... don't think, play one when the changes happen, see how you feel about it, then post your happiness/grief after you have actually played it.

Voicing your opinion over theoretical happenings is fine. (many did it over the whole particle collider experiment that had a small percentage chance of creating a black hole here on Earth) The bitter complaints and whining just... *shakes his head*

Number crunching means nothing to actual game play fun, unless numbers and only numbers is your thing in which case why aren't you complaining more about how the dice rolls more?

Josh
05-07-2008, 08:45 AM
I just can't believe how rude and childish some of you are acting.

They thought what they were doing was in line with what was needed for paladins.

People yelled that they were wrong.

They admit that they were wrong but that they don't have time to make the required changes in this dev cycle for Mod 7.

And now you come in and say "THE DEVS DON'T CARE! PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUIT! THEY WANT PALADINS TO SUCK!"

They obviously care because they listened and are going to make changes in accordance with the player's requests. Why can't you just read things that are said and take them for what they are? Why do you have to all be such drama queens and put words into Turbine's mouth that were never uttered AND make dire proclamations like you do every time anything in the game goes against what you think should happen (and you've been wrong every time you said a change was going to destroy the game, by the way...oh and you've also never actually left the game like you say people who care will do, just in case you hadn't noticed).

And yes, I know this post is pointless since I'm not jumping on the "TURBINE SUCKS" bandwagon so I must not have a valid point.


It's just another example of the devs NOT LISTENING TO FREE, GOOD ADVICE FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS. Many, many good things have been suggested by the people here on the boards to improve the paladin class...and they have fallen on deaf ears untill when? After the content is finalized? Who works all that time, making promises to deliver the goods only to realize at the end that what they have created is teh suck? Hence from Eladrin "are paladins any worse off"? That statement right there to me just reaks of defeat. They might not be any worse off, but they CERTAINLY aren't better.

Why the devs choose to ignore all the awesome, and FREE advice that people give on these boards is beyond me. Apparently they must not think that it's any good.

oronisi
05-07-2008, 08:58 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

You could make an arguement that paladins will be worse off after mod 7. It's not that their power hasn't been increased a tiny bit, but that mod 7 was the 'Pally Love' mod, meaning a future 'Pally Love' mod will be hard to argue for or justify. So while overall paladins may have gotten a tiny power boost, there will be no future power boost to really address the issue.

At least, that's how I see it, from my experience with SWG and other MMOs, you got your turn for balancing once in a cycle and thats all you got until the cycle came back around a year or two later.

oronisi
05-07-2008, 09:01 AM
It's just another example of the devs NOT LISTENING TO FREE, GOOD ADVICE FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS. Many, many good things have been suggested by the people here on the boards to improve the paladin class...and they have fallen on deaf ears untill when? After the content is finalized? Who works all that time, making promises to deliver the goods only to realize at the end that what they have created is teh suck? Hence from Eladrin "are paladins any worse off"? That statement right there to me just reaks of defeat. They might not be any worse off, but they CERTAINLY aren't better.

Why the devs choose to ignore all the awesome, and FREE advice that people give on these boards is beyond me. Apparently they must not think that it's any good.

Actually Josh, I think the problem is WHEN we gave our advice. By the time we knew they were working on paladins for mod 7 and we were posting ideas here, the devs were likely already QAing and tweaking their ideas they had on the design table a month or two ago. It was most likely too late to implement anything unless it was rushed. So my question would be "Have they learned to do whatever they have to do to solicit this great, free advice ahead of time next time around?", not "why did all this great advice get ignored?"

jjflanigan
05-07-2008, 09:07 AM
You do have a valid point. What I find difficult to understand is if you only have a level 2 paladin multi-class how can you understand what pure pally and near pure pally players are saying. We were told one thing then we get something that is underwhelming and costly to implement.

I have my "favorite" characters listed out in my sig. If I had more than 4 lines I would be able to display my WF character, my bard and my pure pally in there as well.

As your sig proves, just because a character type isn't in a sig doesn't mean a person doesn't play it ;)

Uproar
05-07-2008, 09:08 AM
So my question would be "Have they learned to do whatever they have to do to solicit this great, free advice ahead of time next time around?", not "why did all this great advice get ignored?"

Yeah, because that was such a totally absurb idea up until now-- "who woulda thunk it?"

ahpook
05-07-2008, 09:37 AM
It's just another example of the devs NOT LISTENING TO FREE, GOOD ADVICE FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS. Many, many good things have been suggested by the people here on the boards to improve the paladin class...and they have fallen on deaf ears untill when? After the content is finalized? Who works all that time, making promises to deliver the goods only to realize at the end that what they have created is teh suck? Hence from Eladrin "are paladins any worse off"? That statement right there to me just reaks of defeat. They might not be any worse off, but they CERTAINLY aren't better.

Why the devs choose to ignore all the awesome, and FREE advice that people give on these boards is beyond me. Apparently they must not think that it's any good.

Check the boards. Most of the FREE advice is ****. I am not saying that the paladin advice was **** just that it is not always obvious which advice is good and which is ****. If the devs had developed everything advised on these forums the game would be a disaster.

oronisi
05-07-2008, 09:44 AM
Check the boards. Most of the FREE advice is ****. I am not saying that the paladin advice was **** just that it is not always obvious which advice is good and which is ****. If the devs had developed everything advised on these forums the game would be a disaster.

Yea but at the same time, certain posters consistantly post intelligent helpful information, so the devs would have a starting point to help pay attention to forums feedback. I mean, Ghoste and Cow have gone way above and beyond to not only express their opinion, but also get information, screenshots, or videos of what they are talking about. Just give those guys a 'report intelligent post' button and let them highlight intelligent conversations for dev consuption.

bobbryan2
05-07-2008, 09:52 AM
Check the boards. Most of the FREE advice is ****. I am not saying that the paladin advice was **** just that it is not always obvious which advice is good and which is ****. If the devs had developed everything advised on these forums the game would be a disaster.

Uh... yeah... but the devs don't and won't develop based on everything said on the forums. You're talking like the devs don't have the sense to be able to tell a good idea from a bad idea.

Don't be so quick to discount the forums as an 'excellent' source of feedback. Both in things that work and things that don't. I think it's pretty clear that the community has voiced it's annoyance towards clicky activated combat feats and enhancements... and that would definately be a good thing for devs to keep in mind in the future.

A sniper shot every 10 seconds is stupid. Why this could just be a 20 second buff every 2-5 minutes... I have no clue. Death Attacks, Smite Evils, Trips, Stuns, hamstrings, Sunders, Whirlwinds, Cleaves, Great Cleaves... and we just keep adding more to tha tlist... like that new Sunder Machine or whatever it's called.

The community LOVED tempest... and why? Because it provided a passive bonus. If, for instance, Deepwood sniper simply added a 10% increase in firing speed, there would have been nothing but love and adulation for it.

But brining it back to paladins.... if the devs really think we're going to enjoy not only clicking a combat feat... but actually clicking a SPELL for a negative HP... they're just in their own world. I don't think people would even use it 'all' that often if there wasn't an HP hit. Constantly breaking your attack chain and slowing your attack speed is a ridiculous way to help Paladin DPS.

ahpook
05-07-2008, 10:08 AM
Uh... yeah... but the devs don't and won't develop based on everything said on the forums. You're talking like the devs don't have the sense to be able to tell a good idea from a bad idea.

Yeah, but we can't even agree which advice is good and which is not. :)

Sure we can all identify the real stinkers (except the person who posted it :)) but there is a grey area. Look at the Barb comments as an example. I would bet you that if you look at the forums you could see some advice that says paladins should get exactly what they are getting in Mod 7. There were a lot of posts that said paladins were fine. We didn't want the devs to follow that did we?

BTW, I wasn't saying that the devs should ignore the forums. I was just trying to temper the simplistic idea that the forums are full of good free advice and that the devs should just follow it. When people say there is a lot of good advice and the devs should follow it they put in their mind the 10% of things that they agree with. If the devs used the 90% that they disagreed with they would scream.

And to bring it back to paladins as well, NO Clickies. I won't use the new smite that yiou pay HP for partly because it sucks but mostly because I don't want another combat swing clicky on my paladin.

Alcides
05-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Consider the comparison below of a Human Barbarian(16), Fighter(16), and Paladin(16) each wishing to maximize their DPS potential. Each will have the same following stats.

Base Strength = 35
18 Strength at Level 1
+4 Strength from Level 4, 8, 12, 16
+3 Strength Book
+1 Strength from Human Enhancement
+6 Strength Enhancement Bonus
+3 Strength Bonus From a Green Steel Weapon

Base Feats
+1 Hit From Weapon Focus

Base Attack
+16 Hit

Weapon Bonus
+5 Green Steel Weapon

***Barbarian***
+6 Strength From Rage
+4 Strength From Power Rage 4

Total Str: 45
Total Attack: 16 (Base) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + (17 Strength) + 5 (Weapon) = 39
Total Extra 1H Damage: 17 (Strength) + 5 (Weapon) = 22
Total Extra 2H Damage: 25 (Strength) + 5 (Weapon) = 30

***Fighter***
+1 Hit From Greater Weapon Focus
+2 Damage From Weapon Specialization
+2 Damage From Greater Weapon Specialization

Total Str: 38
Total Attack: 16 (Base) + 2 (Weapon Foci) + 14 (Strength) + 5 (Weapon) = 37
Total Extra 1H Damage: 14 (Strength) + 4 (Weapon Specializations) + 5 (Weapon) = 23
Total Extra 2H Damage: 21 (Strength) + 4 (Weapon Specializations) + 5 (Weapon) = 30

***Paladin***
+3 Hit/Damage From Divine Favor

Total Str: 35
Total Attack: 16 Base + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 12 (Strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 5 (Weapon) = 37
Total Extra 1H Damage: 12 (Strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 5 (Weapon) = 20
Total Extra 2H Damage: 18 (Strength) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 5 (Weapon) = 26

These are purely theoretical maximums. From the looks of it, I would say Paladins could probably use some love in the DPS department, and a potential bump in +hit if you argue that warriors having a permanent +hit is worth more than temporary +hit. In addition, the ball game completely changes if and when fighters are given the "Weapon Mastery" and "Weapon Supremacy" feats from Player's Handbook 2. Not to mention paladins tend to have to be more generalists when it comes to stat allocation at character creation, if they want to take advantage of all the features the paladin class has to offer. As far as the devs not caring. I would say that is far from the truth, although I'd like some variation on the spells we have available to give the paladin a more "divine champion feel".

artvan_delet
05-07-2008, 10:29 AM
While I have posted and added my thoughts to this thread, I did want to thank Eladrin for the response. Much of what is written in this thread is critical, but I very much appreciate the feedback from the devs.

Aesop
05-07-2008, 10:38 AM
Consider the comparison below of a Human Barbarian(16), Fighter(16), and Paladin(16) each wishing to maximize their DPS potential. Each will have the same following stats.


Remember this is on the first swing and while this is pretty balanced as it stands there consider

Crit Rage

and


Fighter Haste Boost

these increase DPS dramatically

funny thing is if there is any class that needs attention (in the good way) as much as Pally its Fighter

Aesop


oh and if ya also look at MUlticlassing a Fighter 12/Pally 8 should be a fun combo at lvl 20... got one in the works myself

Alcides
05-07-2008, 10:56 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Most of the Paladins I have talked to seem to agree that the "Divine Favor nerf" defanged Paladins. The in-game description of the spell states "Divine Favor grants a +1 luck bonus to hit and +1 luck bonus to damage per 3 caster levels." Problem is it only caps out at +3 to hit and +3 to damage. I left the game for a year to play WoW because this screwed up my first paladin who was pretty damn good before this change.

sumnz
05-07-2008, 11:00 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

There not worse off, unless you include the idiotic -10 hp swing that will probably connect 1/5 times. But there were not so many positive changes such as for bards or rangers or rogues that make me say "hmm time to pick up my pure 16th paladin again!" So the people who shelved them for underperformance-a bigger problem than you might want to admit-have no reason to dust them off.

In other words, I can get more support, more dps, or more survivability out of virtually any class in the game. So why would I want to pick up an underperforming class again? At least if you had made them say the king of undead killing THAT would be something. But it feels like we were promised prime rib and got the bone left over from it.

fatherpirate
05-07-2008, 11:14 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.


A Developer post in the suggestion/developer thread CONGRATS !

seriously

WoW hasn't had a developer post a comment in thier suggestion thread in over 2 years << no lie

It is just good to see that you guys glance over here from time to time :-D

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 11:40 AM
It's just another example of the devs NOT LISTENING TO FREE, GOOD ADVICE FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS. Many, many good things have been suggested by the people here on the boards to improve the paladin class...and they have fallen on deaf ears untill when? After the content is finalized? Who works all that time, making promises to deliver the goods only to realize at the end that what they have created is teh suck? Hence from Eladrin "are paladins any worse off"? That statement right there to me just reaks of defeat. They might not be any worse off, but they CERTAINLY aren't better.

Why the devs choose to ignore all the awesome, and FREE advice that people give on these boards is beyond me. Apparently they must not think that it's any good.

Ok, in all seriousness you have to be careful about advice from your players. There is a delicate balance that needs to be played here, because some times what the player say they want, is not actually good for the players or the game. I am not stating this is the case with some of the proposed player changes to Paladins, I'm just saying that you cannot just make changes to a game based off of player feedback alone. I've seen MMOs cater to the players, and end up ruining the game.

Anyways, I'd like to see some more stuff added to Paladins. I played one in the past, and will probably in the future when they become to my liking. For now, I'll continue playing other classes. And I will not berate the devs, they are doing a good job in my opinion. Yes it takes them a while, but DDO is a much smaller game, with a smaller funding base. I really feel sick when players insult the Developers for not doing what they want, or not doing things fast enough. Making changes to an existing MMO is not a quick process. They are trying, it takes time. Yes, that isn't what you want to hear, we all want changes quickly, but these things take time.

As for all the Paladin players who have posted mature, rational feedback, and continue to do so and be strong proponents of the Paladin class, I applaud you. I sincerely appreciate the players who are stalwart, and continue to seek improvements to their class, without resorting to insults or whining. It seems that about half the Paladin population has given in to hopelessness or despair (which in itself seems un-Paladin like :)) and wants things now. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen. It will come in time, and things will improve. The only advice I can give you is be patient, and YES, continue to be persistent... but please do not resort to insults/immaturity, as it really reflects poorly on the Paladin community as a whole.

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Most of the Paladins I have talked to seem to agree that the "Divine Favor nerf" defanged Paladins. The in-game description of the spell states "Divine Favor grants a +1 luck bonus to hit and +1 luck bonus to damage per 3 caster levels." Problem is it only caps out at +3 to hit and +3 to damage. I left the game for a year to play WoW because this screwed up my first paladin who was pretty damn good before this change.



See this would be a great point to bring up. I think Divine Favor was changed, because of Errata to it by WotC. It was deemed too powerful for a level 1 spell in pen and paper. In DDO, with mob HPs being so much higher and ACs being inflated in some cases as well, I would argue that a cap of +5 to hit/+5 to damage would not be out of line. It is something to consider, and I think it would be great to change it back to +5/+5... would go a small ways to rectifying some of the Paladin's woes.

Riddikulus
05-07-2008, 11:49 AM
See this would be a great point to bring up. I think Divine Favor was changed, because of Errata to it by WotC. It was deemed too powerful for a level 1 spell in pen and paper. In DDO, with mob HPs being so much higher and ACs being inflated in some cases as well, I would argue that a cap of +5 to hit/+5 to damage would not be out of line. It is something to consider, and I think it would be great to change it back to +5/+5... would go a small ways to rectifying some of the Paladin's woes.
Well, I'm all for moving things toward PnP for better balance so I'd say leave DF the way it is.

But there would be nothing wrong with adding a "improved DF" enhancement line. ;)

Aesop
05-07-2008, 11:49 AM
See this would be a great point to bring up. I think Divine Favor was changed, because of Errata to it by WotC. It was deemed too powerful for a level 1 spell in pen and paper. In DDO, with mob HPs being so much higher and ACs being inflated in some cases as well, I would argue that a cap of +5 to hit/+5 to damage would not be out of line. It is something to consider, and I think it would be great to change it back to +5/+5... would go a small ways to rectifying some of the Paladin's woes.

I'd perfer that they added in different higher level spells like Righteous Fury and other ones like that

Aesop

gpk
05-07-2008, 12:23 PM
They thought what they were doing was in line with what was needed for paladins.

Really? It seems to me very little thought was put into anything pally related and mod7.
If they can't add up a few numbers and see how bad Smite Evils are especially compared to a level 1 /1 AP enhancement, or compare the number and HP of DDO mobs to PnP then...I don't know what to say really.
The easy fix was so painfully obvious I'm still stunned they havent been announced: SPELLS.

Instead there was all of a sudden a desire to focus on more "iconic" abilites. Smite is certainy iconic but it's NOT a primary strong class ability like Rage is; and look how much Rage was boosted (don't even consider crit rage).

Wannn focus on smites? Fine, focus on smites, but actually do the work to make them; slapping together some enhancement thought up in 10 minutes over a bad cup of java doesn't cut it. If you can't look at the numbers being put out in a typical quest/raid and see they come up WAY short then maybe you're in the wrong line of work.
The variables are there:number of swings per smite, number of smites per extra smite, regeneration rate,regeneration time. You can play with those to make smite be anything but useless.

It's acceptable for some non-saavy game players to think Exalted smites in their current form are good, it's not ok for the paid developers of a game.



People yelled that they were wrong.

Yes that's because they were and are wrong. Some chose to be fanbois and not speak the truth and inthe ridculous hope that the problem would fix itself, in the end everyone lost.


They admit that they were wrong but that they don't have time to make the required changes in this dev cycle for Mod 7.

The only admissions I saw was the blurb over the recycled cleric "faith" lines, after all the time those crappy lines have been in game NOW we get an official word ? It took THIS long for them to realize they weren't good?
After a while, say a year the excuses start getting old and you don't wanna hear excuses anymore, you want results and delivered promises.

And now you come in and say "THE DEVS DON'T CARE! PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUIT! THEY WANT PALADINS TO SUCK!"


They obviously care because they listened and are going to make changes in accordance with the player's requests. Why can't you just read things that are said and take them for what they are?

Really what did they listen to? They finally realized the old faith lines aren't good? How long did it take the devs and how long did it take the players.
Did they admit to the mod7 stuff being bad?


Why do you have to all be such drama queens and put words into Turbine's mouth that were never uttered AND make dire proclamations like you do every time anything in the game goes against what you think should happen (and you've been wrong every time you said a change was going to destroy the game, by the way...

No need to put thing in Turbine's mouth, the results speak for themselves; heck the dev quotes are there.
If I as a pally made half the pally related remarks in the dev tracker other players would think I was playing a different game.
Seriously go look at it.



oh and you've also never actually left the game like you say people who care will do, just in case you hadn't noticed).

If I or a subordinate commited some similar mistakes in a project and kept repeating those mistakes, well let's just say someone would be leaving.

Maybe next time you get all worked up because you think the devs are gettign a bum rap you'll actually look at the situation a little more closely.

If you think it's acceptable to hurt gameplay for a great many players for many months, no a YEAR+, promise to fix the situation then pretend you have then by all means keep defending that practice.

Alcides
05-07-2008, 12:35 PM
I'd perfer that they added in different higher level spells like Righteous Fury and other ones like that

Aesop

Adding Righteous Fury would give the +2 hit / +2 damage that was lost from the "Divine Favor nerf" from the +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength it gives.

The bigger issue here is that we have lost some features of the paladin class that really hit home, and devalued the class.

For instance, lowering the Paladin AC/Save Aura from +2 AC / +2 Saves Base to +1 AC / +1 Saves Base. I think adding Bulwark of Good 4 is a good call on giving this back to Paladins in Mod 7. Adding Resistance of Good 4 would also be a nice touch of giving high level paladins the ability to have the Paladin Aura the way it used to be maxed at +5 AC / +5 Saves. Mind this would cost a paladin 20 enhancement points to do, but given that these bonuses affect everyone in the party I think it's well worth it.

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 12:44 PM
Really? It seems to me very little thought was put into anything pally related and mod7.
If they can't add up a few numbers and see how bad Smite Evils are especially compared to a level 1 /1 AP enhancement, or compare the number and HP of DDO mobs to PnP then...I don't know what to say really.

Insinuated insult.



Yes that's because they were and are wrong. Some chose to be fanbois and not speak the truth and inthe ridculous hope that the problem would fix itself, in the end everyone lost.

Another insult.



The only admissions I saw was the blurb over the recycled cleric "faith" lines, after all the time those crappy lines have been in game NOW we get an official word ? It took THIS long for them to realize they weren't good?
After a while, say a year the excuses start getting old and you don't wanna hear excuses anymore, you want results and delivered promises.

Insinuation that you are entitled to something. This is an MMO, you really aren't entitled to anything. Read the EULA/Terms of Service for further confirmation.



No need to put thing in Turbine's mouth, the results speak for themselves; heck the dev quotes are there.
If I as a pally made half the pally related remarks in the dev tracker other players would think I was playing a different game.
Seriously go look at it.

An attempt to twist someone's else's words against them.



If I or a subordinate commited some similar mistakes in a project and kept repeating those mistakes, well let's just say someone would be leaving.

Kind of a fallacy. A comparison of your line of work, to MMO development. By the way, having played a LOT of MMOs, what is going on here is standard fare. Turbine rates better than a lot of other MMOs in some categories, not as good in others.



Maybe next time you get all worked up because you think the devs are gettign a bum rap you'll actually look at the situation a little more closely.

If you think it's acceptable to hurt gameplay for a great many players for many months, no a YEAR+, promise to fix the situation then pretend you have then by all means keep defending that practice.

There was no guarantee from Turbine that gameplay would be a certain way. They promise to make changes... that does not necessarily mean the changes will be to your liking. As much as you post about the situation, I am surprised you haven't quit. If I truly felt something was unacceptable, then I would not accept it. I would quit. Money is the bottom line for them, if people quit because they feel something is unacceptable, they will make changes. If you are continuing to play, then this is not truly 'unacceptable' to you. I am not telling to you to quit (I was joking about it before), but just defining what unacceptable is.

You will probably label me as a fanboi, although I do want more from Turbine to help the Paladin class. I am not a fanboi... however the picture you are painting is on the far extreme of a fanboi. I think there is a middle ground that can be reached. I would like to see more mature posts advocating change for the Paladin class. I realize that one year may seem a significant time, but in the course of MMO development and evolution, it really isn't. Again, I would stress being patient, but continuing to be persistent and mature.

Lastly, this is a game. If you are truly upset about this, you should probably take a break. Your posts are laced with a small amount of vitriol, or possibly sarcasm, but as text doesn't convey emotion well, I can't tell if you are very serious about this or not. Hopefully you will lighten up a bit, continue to advocate for the Paladin class, but enjoy the game as it is now, because things in MMOs do not change quickly. (Except nerfs :D)

Good luck to you.

Angelus_dead
05-07-2008, 12:58 PM
Insinuated insult.

Another insult.
It was you who started in with the insulting insinuations, so don't get all righteous:

Just delete your Paladin, play something else. When Paladin becomes to your liking again, delete something else, reroll paladin.
You were belittling the very idea of giving feedback to improve a product, which is highly insulting to anyone who has devoted time to that goal.


Insinuation that you are entitled to something. This is an MMO, you really aren't entitled to anything. Read the EULA/Terms of Service for further confirmation.
If Turbine wants to continue getting paid, they'd better ACT like the customers are entitled to things.

gpk
05-07-2008, 01:07 PM
An attempt to twist someone's else's words against them.

Twist what words? They're in the dev tracker I don't need to twist anything. Noone wants to comment on the statements because they weren't made by players.



Kind of a fallacy. A comparison of your line of work, to MMO development. By the way, having played a LOT of MMOs, what is going on here is standard fare. Turbine rates better than a lot of other MMOs in some categories, not as good in others.

Well I'm a software develoepr and have worked on some pretty big projects, when you have government reps coming to certify your work you find excuses don't go over well with them or your the people who pay your salary. I think actually QA has become the whipping boy as of late on these forums, it's pretty clear to me now much of the problem stems from the initial design.



There was no guarantee from Turbine that gameplay would be a certain way. They promise to make changes... that does not necessarily mean the changes will be to your liking.

Sometimes tt's not a subjective thing, it's not a question of ME not liking a particular thing, it's about it not being good to anyone who has given it the least amount of thought.
Past a certain point you can put down some numbers on a sheet of paper, a spreadsheet, anything really, and see what those numbers are.
If 20 X produces inferior results to 1 Y then either Y is grosssly overpowerd or X is grossly underpowered.
Odds are X is grossly underpowered.



As much as you post about the situation, I am surprised you haven't quit. If I truly felt something was unacceptable, then I would not accept it. I would quit. Money is the bottom line for them, if people quit because they feel something is unacceptable, they will make changes. If you are continuing to play, then this is not truly 'unacceptable' to you. I am not telling to you to quit (I was joking about it before), but just defining what unacceptable is.

Oh trust me I know for a fact the word "quit" is popping up in a lot of heads and not just for this issue. I tried to help make the game better but clearly there was never a chance.
I had to cut through all the forum BS , permanent forumites and fanbois to try to make some points but clearly there was failure.



Lastly, this is a game. If you are truly upset about this, you should probably take a break. Your posts are laced with a small amount of vitriol, or possibly sarcasm, but as text doesn't convey emotion well, I can't tell if you are very serious about this or not.

LOL well if you're a fan of sarcasm like I am do check out a recent dev post.



Hopefully you will lighten up a bit, continue to advocate for the Paladin class, but enjoy the game as it is now, because things in MMOs do not change quickly. (Except nerfs :D)

Not only do things NOT change quickly, the rate of change in DDO has slowed to a near crawl; serious issues have piled up are going unresolved for long long periods.

The new dev cycles is 4 months with less content and no in-between updates unless; this seems good to you?

P.S. I do so enjoy being accused of a certain thing by someone who's gone out of his way to do that thing.

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 01:14 PM
You are right, I should have made it more clear that in my earlier posts I was joking.

I am not belittling the idea of giving feedback, I am criticizing the manner in which it is given and trying to advise people to have unreasonable expectations.

Your insinuation that if Turbine wants to get continue to get paid, they better act like the customers are entitled to things, does not sit well with me.

Paying your monthly fee, entitles you to play Dungeons & Dragons Online. It does not entitle Paladins to be the class you envisioned. It does not entitle the Paladin class to improvements that you specify, within a time frame you specify. Paying a monthly fee does not equate out to being a shareholder in the company. YOU are entitled to quit paying your monthly fee, if at any time you feel dissatisfied.

I am not advocating you quit, unless you are so dissatisfied and disgusted by things, that you truly find things unacceptable. Just asking that the advocates for changes post in a mature responsible manner.

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 01:25 PM
Well I'm a software develoepr and have worked on some pretty big projects, when you have government reps coming to certify your work you find excuses don't go over well with them or your the people who pay your salary. I think actually QA has become the whipping boy as of late on these forums, it's pretty clear to me now much of the problem stems from the initial design.

You are a software developer, so you understand the process. However, I would ask you how many programers/developers you have on your staff. I would hazard a guess that Turbine may have less developers/programmers working for them than you do.

Also coding something so it works properly is different than balancing classes in an MMO, which is VERY subjective to people's opinions.



Not only do things NOT change quickly, the rate of change in DDO has slowed to a near crawl; serious issues have piled are going unresolved for long long periods.

The new dev cycles is 4 months with less content and no in-between updates unless; this seems good to you?

P.S. I do so enjoy being accused of a certain thing by someone who's gone out of his way to do that thing.

In all seriousness, how many MMOs have you played? Yes things are slow. No, changes in DDO are not the slowest I have seen.

I have played: Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest II, World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Final Fantasy XI, EVE Online, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, and Vanguard...

I think DDO Falls about in the middle as speed of updates go.

In regards to your P.S., I will not interject any more humor into my posts directed to you, as it may be misinterpreted.

Aesop
05-07-2008, 01:35 PM
This thread is repidly declining and seems to me the mean green machine may come to wiggle his way through it soon.

The bilk of it is this

The improvements given to the Paladins in this Module, a module which was told to us to be a Module with a lot of improvements to Paladins and Rogues (while also implementing Monks), left the Paladin Enthusiasts with a bad taste in their mouths. The Feedback which has been very forthcoming from said enthusiasts about what they would like to see wasn't much referenced. The lack of new Spells, Prestige Enhancements (the Faith Lines are more like flavor as their effects are very situational and limited in use vs the other PrEs seen given other classes... mostly Ranger and even those aren't always considered up to snuff...see Deepwoods Sniper gripes) and no further implementation of Divine Feats (as either Feat or Enhancements) was brought forward.

So of the things ask for by the Paladin Enthusiasts we had

Make Smite Evil more pertinate and useful relative to combat in this game: Ok they went for this one but didn't quite cut it. They fell short because of they overestimated the usefulness of what they were putting out there vs the actual content.

Reduction of Enhancement Costs for Aura: Bingo very nice... only one problem is that they then made the exalted Smite line which has other prerequisite Enhancements thus making the whole thing very expensive. So those points you saved are now moved to somewhere else that really isn't benefiting you over the entire course of a quest.

Spells: Well we had about 5 that we put forth and unless they still have a big unveiling of spells it doesn't look good. Those were important for the overall effectiveness of paladins. You incorporated one which has a big penalty to it as an enhancement and I think that one has backfired. The one good side is that you did upgrade the Holy Sword spell to be useful in more situations. So there is a silver lining there I suppose but it is very tarnished

Divine Feat. We got nada there. Again this is an Over all Effectiveness thing here. Those are excellent resources for Pallies and Clerics especially with the inflated HD of undead making them nigh Immune to Turns anyway.

PrE: There have been a number of what I would think of as decent suggestions for this, but Isuppose with a lot of resources being dedicated to Monk you really didn't have a lot to play with here... so that brings up this



You should not have said this was a Pally Love Mod.

This is a Monk Mod with a few things for Pallies

I see:
1 spell tweak
AP cost reduction for a couple lines
AP cost increase for a line
3 new Enhancement lines with heavy prerequisites that are of limited or questionable value


am I missing anything big?

Aesop

gpk
05-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I am not belittling the idea of giving feedback, I am criticizing the manner in which it is given and trying to advise people to have unreasonable expectations.

Well the "feedback" has been given in every possible manner and all of it has gone ignored. Unreasonable expectations would have been to expect a superman enhancement like BBN Crit Rage 2, reasonable would be to expect similar quality stuff that mod6 Rangers got to pull the pally class out of the gutter.
Does that seem unreasonable to you?



Your insinuation that if Turbine wants to get continue to get paid, they better act like the customers are entitled to things, does not sit well with me.

Paying your monthly fee, entitles you to play Dungeons & Dragons Online. It does not entitle Paladins to be the class you envisioned. It does not entitle the Paladin class to improvements that you specify, within a time frame you specify. Paying a monthly fee does not equate out to being a shareholder in the company. YOU are entitled to quit paying your monthly fee, if at any time you feel dissatisfied.


Well if Mod5 is advertised with a Mod5 raid and I pay my 60$ for 4 months I fully expect to play a working raid for more than 2-3 weeks of mod5. Does that seem acceptable to you? If they told us in mod5 that the Raid wasn't going to be fixed after the designers broke it then perhaps many customers would have not paid for another 3 months of mod5.
In fact a great many people on my server took a 2-3 month break in mod5 after the raid was borked, I foolishly stuck around in a misguided attempt to help and reported bugs, issues and offered suggestions based on many many hours of hands-on testing. Noone twisted my arm however and I endured the endless forum dribble like "well all you need is more practice".
One third of the problem was fixed: ice puzzle; one third of a fix is not a fix. It is in no way shape or form acceptable and should not be treated as such so as to spare a paid proffesional's "feelings".

After a while when serious issues go unresolved and proper player feedback is completely ignored and half-assed work is being done you start asking yourself "*** is going on?" ?

Was I not ENTITLED to a working Mod5 raid that was advertised and I PAID for?

Angelus_dead
05-07-2008, 01:38 PM
In regards to your P.S., I will not interject any more humor into my posts directed to you, as it may be misinterpreted.
Just because a statement is humorous doesn't mean it can't also be insulting. The idiom "making fun of me" is used to describe that possibility. In some situations, any attempt at humor is automatically an insult.

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 01:42 PM
Well if the Mod5 is advertised with a Mod5 raid and I pay my 60$ for 4 months I fully expect to play a working raid for more than 2-3 weeks of mod5. Does that seem acceptable to you? If they told us in mod5 that the Raid wasn't going to be fixed after the designers broke it then perhaps many customers would have not paid for anotehr 3 months of mod5.
In fact a great many people on my server took a 2-3 month break in mod5 after the raid was borked, I foolishly stuck around in a misguided attempt to help and reported bugs, issues and offered suggestions based on many many hours of hands-on testing. Noone twisted my arm however and I endured the endless forum dribble like "well all you need is more practice".
One third of the problem was fixed: ice puzzle; one third of a fix is not a fix. It is in no way shape or form acceptable and should not be treated as such so as to spare a paid proffesional's "feelings".

After a while when serious issues go unresolved and proper player feedback is completely ignored and half-assed work is being done you start asking yourself "*** is going on?" ?

Was I not ENTITLED to a working Mod5 raid that was advertised and I PAID for?

I took a break about that time because of RL and frustration with certain things. Tried out some other games, then came back, because for the time being, this is the MMO I enjoy best. So, I'm speaking from hearsay here.

As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

Coldin
05-07-2008, 01:47 PM
You should not have said this was a Pally Love Mod.

This is a Monk Mod with a few things for Pallies

I see:
1 spell tweak
AP cost reduction for a couple lines
AP cost increase for a line
3 new Enhancement lines with heavy prerequisites that are of limited or questionable value


am I missing anything big?

Aesop

Sounds about right to me. This really wasn't so much a Rogue/Paladin Love Mod, as it was a Monk Mod with high and low level content to go with it.

oronisi
05-07-2008, 01:49 PM
I took a break about that time because of RL and frustration with certain things. Tried out some other games, then came back, because for the time being, this is the MMO I enjoy best. So, I'm speaking from hearsay here.

As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

When a group of players decide to complete a raid no matter the cost, finally complete the raid after weeks of practice and countless resources, then after completion, swear they will never do that again.....I call that broken.

gpk
05-07-2008, 01:50 PM
As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

LOL you had to bring up the titan huh, oh the irony.

Still though you quoted my post but haven't address it; but hey I don't pay you anything now do I.

llevenbaxx
05-07-2008, 01:53 PM
am I missing anything big?

Aesop

Nope, pretty much dead on.:)

gpk
05-07-2008, 01:56 PM
You are a software developer, so you understand the process. However, I would ask you how many programers/developers you have on your staff. I would hazard a guess that Turbine may have less developers/programmers working for them than you do.

Oh I'm sure Turbine has both more manpower and way more resources than I ever had at my disposal.



Also coding something so it works properly is different than balancing classes in an MMO, which is VERY subjective to people's opinions.

Yes SOME things are subjective, others are not or are very little.

Some things just boil down to numbers and it's very VERY easy to see if those numbers are still insignifactly low and too costly. If you choose to ignore those numbers which practically leap out of the page/screen then it is a huge mistake.



In all seriousness, how many MMOs have you played? Yes things are slow. No, changes in DDO are not the slowest I have seen.

I have played: Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest II, World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Final Fantasy XI, EVE Online, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, and Vanguard...

I think DDO Falls about in the middle as speed of updates go.


Oh I've tried a few but only mostly stuck it out with 2 for long periods of time, DDO being one of them.
Personally I don't care what the other MMOs are doing, they don't get my $.
If all the other MMOs jumped off a bridge should DDO jump too? :rolleyes:

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 01:57 PM
LOL you had to bring up the titan huh,oh the irony.

Still though you quoted my post but haven't address it; but hey I don't pay you anything now do I.

Ok, to address your post then let me ask you... Why did you continue to pay your monthly fee, when you felt that the major raid that you wished to participate in was broken?

gpk
05-07-2008, 02:09 PM
Ok, to address your post then let me ask you... Why did you continue to pay your monthly fee, when you felt that the major raid that you wished to participate in was broken?
I already explained why, I was trying to help fix it and kept hoping the fix would come soon so that I could play it.
You don't know how many hours we spent testing things over and over after every patch in order to provide proper feedback, it got harder and harder to get 6 people to go in with you too. Every week and every patch that went by people felt like they were being misled and ignored and by the last weeks of mod5 I couldn't pay people step near the raid entrance. As I've said many people took a 2-3 month break from DDO after the raid was broken; there are repercussions to things of that nature.

What would you have done if you were here?

Tallyn
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
I already explained why, I was trying to help fix it and kept hoping the fix would come soon so that I could play it.
You don't know how many hours we spent testing things over and over after every patch in order to provide proper feedback, it got harder and harder to get 6 people to go in with you too. Every week and every patch that went by people felt like they were being misled and ignored and by the last weeks of mod5 I couldn't pay people step near the raid entrance. As I've said many people took a 2-3 month break from DDO after the raid was broken; there are repercussions to things of that nature.

What would you have done if you were here?

I did what I would have done.. I would have taken a break from the game. As did some of your friends/associates.

Angelus_dead
05-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Oh I'm sure Turbine has both more manpower and way more resources than I ever had at my disposal.
Except that they're assigned to LOTRO, huh!

gpk
05-07-2008, 02:15 PM
I did what I would have done.. I would have taken a break from the game. As did some of your friends/associates.

Well I guess I'm the idiot for being hopeful, patient and trying to help fix the problem.
Egg on my face, won't happen again! Oh wait too late...

sephiroth1084
05-07-2008, 04:35 PM
I'd like to see Eladrin post another comment regarding some of what has been (intelligently) discussed here. Obviously, not all of the above posts are worth reading, let alone commenting on, but some certainly are. It does shock me, somewhat, that even after all the comments people have left regarding the new paladin stuff over the past few weeks, that the devs still seem shocked at the poor reception.

-Can we expect further improvements to the Paladin (even the PrC lines Eladrin mentioned the devs wanting to implement) in Mod 8?
-Will there possibly be an attempt at reducing the cost of the Exalted enhancement line if indeed it ends up being far too costly for too little benefit in practice?
-Would the devs PLEASE post some of the many ideas they are (or will be) throwing around for what to do as Paladin PrC enhancement lines before they are at a stage where they cannot be altered? Sure, there is something to be said for surprising the community with awesomeness, but when so many of these ideas have fallen flat, why not just throw up a poll, and ask people to vote and comment on things? Actually, don't put up a poll, since that won't be useful (can't weed out those who will always be voting negatively and those who will always be going positive). I strongly feel that the devs should begin a practice of posting their ideas for updates when they are still in the thought-stage so that they may see what people think. I understand that reading post after post of mindlessly idiotic comments can be demoralizing, but that should have been at the top of the job description for working on an MMO development team. The few gems are very worthwhile.

To reflect a bit, I've been running a Ranger 4/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 focusing on archery and trapsmithing, and was unsure as to whether I should eventually hit Ranger 6, or whether I should stay Rogue the rest of the way. So, I asked around, pestering every ranger I grouped with for their thoughts on DWS. Over the course of 2 months, all but one person has said that I should stick with Rogue, because DWS isn't worth it.

As for paladins, I'm currently working on my 32pt. dwarf paladin/fighter (which works well only because I sacked a few build points at the beginning knowing that I could use a +1 tome for Dex and Int to get Dodge and Combat Expertise...I don't feel a build should be dependent on the access to such things). Beforehand I had a human paladin 11/fighter 4. In 28pts., paladins suffer TREMENDOUSLY! Especially if they are going for max AC, since they have NO dump stat, requiring Str for attack, Dex of at least 13, Con for tanking (the dumpstat on my first guy, which made him very ineffective as a tank later on, and I greatly regretted doing), Int of 13, Wis of 10 to avoid huge item space issues (left at an 8 on the dwarf, and am struggling a bit, since I have to swap in a Wis+ item every time I want to cast Divine Favor, then swapping it out for an intimidate+ item or resistance item, and throwing up Combat Expertise again), and a Cha of 12+ to make use of any of the paladin abilities.

With the dwarf, I am currently lvl 12, and, while I do end up being the last one standing after party wipes, I can only fix the situation about 30% of the time. Sure, sometimes I can just stand there hitting stuff, healing occasionally, and eventually clear the room, so I can rez the cleric with the ring I farmed for, for exactly these occasions. But there are more times when I'm stuck against too many enemies, or too many casters, or enemies with regeneration or DR I can't punch through, or guys who can ignore my AC, and I crumble. I cannot stand toe to toe with most trolls, because I don't deal enough damage to overcome their regen. This with a 26 Str and Weapon Specialization, swinging a +3 acid dwarven axe of pure good. Oh, I can swing 10-30 times, without getting hit back, but it doesn't matter because the guy won't die. I've tried the same thing, but dropped all 4 of my smite evils into the troll, and, after knocking it down to about 1/2 its HP, watched as it came back up to full while I was plugging away at it. This wasn't because of DR...if there was any, I was bypassing it. This is because I cannot do enough DPS to overcome a troll's regen. Power Attack only helps here if I am facing a single troll. As soon as there are two of them, switching from Combat Expertise to Power Attack means that I likely die before they do. With more than 2, that becomes almost a guarantee.

So, what I find, is that I can use 4 smite evil (2 from lvls, and 2 from the first Extra Smite enhancement) into a mook, not a boss, not a named, but one of the swarm mobs in a quest (VoN, CO6, Ataraxia's, etc...) and not kill it. What this tells me, is that smites are neither terribly useful for anything. Using them against normal enemies would be inefficient even if it one-shotted them, because there are just too many vs. the number of smites available (even with all the enhancements). Using them against bosses is an exercise in futility, because all the smites are just a drop in the bucket vs. their HP, and my contribution is slight. None of this has even addressed the issues about enemies moving and losing smites, lagging for a second and losing smites, enemies teleporting and losing smites, rolling a 1 and losing a smite, or having so many in-combat clicky abilities that sometimes I click the wrong one and lose a smite.

I've almost fully come to grips with the fact that my DPS is meaningless in most scenarios and have been hunting for special weapons (paralyzers and such). However, when I go all-in on those, it makes my Improved Trip almost useless, since they land more often than trip does (just because it is a save on every swing, instead of every 10 seconds or so), and because paralyzers stand the target up, so even if I trip someone, the next hit with the paralyzer is going to negate that anyway. Weapon Specialization was probably a complete waste of a feat, since it doesn't do enough to overcome my already low DPS.

Sure, having much more damage on a critical hit+ smite is great. I love seeing almost 200 damage. And the new enhancement line will increase that as well as the chance of it occurring, but I've landed 2 crit-smites on bosses before, and still felt that I wasn't contributing much by way of damage. My major contributions to the party, as I see them, are in drawing aggro with Intimidate, which saves the cleric mana, and allows the DPSers time and freedom to do their thing (especially rogues) and also takes the heat off of the blaster-casters for a little while, a little emergency healing with the Oh ****! button (LoH)--especially through walls and doors since the cleric is useless in party separation situations--and some battlefield control with trip or a paralyzer (something anyone else can do anyway), and in not dying in bad situations so that I can sometimes salvage those instances.

The only things in the "Pally Love" update that contribute to any of that are the reduced cost for enhancements, which allow me to take more things I can use (additional dwarf, fighter or paladin enhancements), the improvements to Divine Righteousness (something I don't see anyone commenting on whether positively OR negatively, and something that is really only very useful in conjunction with a good Intimidate from what I've seen), and possibly the raise dead on LoH ability. Yes, I have a Ring of the Ancestors, but having additional options for raising is welcome, particularly since grinding for particular, rare-drop items, is not fun, and hard to get a group for. And the raise dead ability for LoH is going to suck up whatever AP I would have available from the reduction in cost anyway if I take it.

Why people keep kvetching about the reduction in cost, I cannot fathom. Even if the AP gained will just go into one of the new enhancement lines, it is still freeing up AP for more options. You can ignore the new lines and use the AP on something else (which is what I'm likely to do). Regardless of what anyone else says, i feel this is a purely positive move. Does it solve problems? Yes, paladins are pressed for AP and this helps tremendously. Does it make paladins more effective? Marginally, by itself, but it allows for other improvements. HIGH-FIVE on this one!

I like the IDEA of smite evil in PnP, but even in PnP, smite evil is woefully underpowered. In DDO, this is magnified exponentially, since there are many more enemies/encounter, more encounters/day~rest, and enemies have oodles more HP. In PnP I stopped playing a paladin because I found myself hanging onto smites for a boss, and then finding that someone else finished the boss off before my turn came up, or that there was no boss before the end of the day, making my smites useless in both instances. Same problems in DDO. I only began playing paladins again recently in PnP because we switched to a variant that uses smites/encounter, so that in any fight with an evil creature, I was free to exhaust all my smites. The "smites regenerating over time" is somewhat equivalent to this, and if they regen over a short enough period (1-3 minutes) I'll be happy.

Oh, the other issue I have with smites, is that, since they are NOT part of the attack sequence, they not only interrupt your attacking, but I've also noticed that, if I'm being too hasty, I interrupt the SMITE by pressing the attack button afterwards, either losing the smite, or just never executing it. I'm often surprised, after a boss fight, to find that I have NOT used all my smites as I thought I had, because they kept getting interrupted by a little movement, or hitting the attack button again too soon. My preferred solution would be: smites do not get taken off if you miss (whether from movement or a bad roll), but missing does activate the cooldown timer, and smites become a part of the unbroken attack sequence just as trip is, and function like normal attacks (that is, a little movement will not interrupt the smite, nor will hitting the attack button). Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I'm a fairly skilled game-player, and if I'm having the issue, I'm sure others are as well, even if the top tier players will choose to scoff.

I'd like to see:
-something that ACTUALLY helps paladin DPS (not on par with Barbarians, but enough to be effective)
-something to mitigate MAD (multiple ability dependency), particularly for 28 pt. builds
-make the raise dead ability on LoH a little more affordable (with the base AP cost + the other enhancement prereqs, this is very expensive)
-something (as many have posted) to really encourage pure-classing, and abilities that really define what the paladin's primary role is
-abilities that enhance that primary role

Serpent
05-07-2008, 06:46 PM
I would also like to see Eladrin's response. I was quoted and i followed up buy answering the question. If it was sarcasm towards my position then i really am at a loss for what to think of the devs.

axebender
05-07-2008, 06:55 PM
omg i just had to come in and say beer almost shot out my ears when i read the title of this post lol. :)

gpk
05-07-2008, 07:47 PM
I would also like to see Eladrin's response. I was quoted and i followed up buy answering the question. If it was sarcasm towards my position then i really am at a loss for what to think of the devs.

What you don't like the answer you got?
I love it when I go to the doctor with a broken leg and he doesn't do anything to help me, instead he winks at me, hands me a lollipop and says "Hey, I didn't break your leg any more did I ?"

Pyromaniac
05-07-2008, 07:54 PM
My sympathies to the pallies out there, I used to play one too. But look at it this way - if it was announced in advance you were getting something good it would have been nerfed before live servers like the rogues.

Mod 7 is monk love :)

DragonKiller
05-07-2008, 08:17 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?


No offense Eladrin, but that's pretty much like asking someone "Do you still beat your wife?"

When you guys first started listing some changes to the Pally I was happy that it was the Pally's turn and kept waiting for the really cool stuff.... Unfortunately it just didn't come. I have a lvl 16 Pure Pally, and as of right now his AC is really no better than my robe wearing 14/2 Ranger/Fighter in a robe (with a shield that is), and my Pally is pretty decked out with everything needed for AC boost minus a crafted item (in the works). Saves, don't seem to make a major difference any more as my Ranger pretty much has no issues right now either. My Ranger has more SP, can deal more damage, while avoiding even taking damage, and is much more soloable than the Pally. Even though the Pally has over 100 more HPs than the Ranger.

Now if my Pally unless? Unfun to play? No. However, I have seen his abilities fall behind the other classes, specially when you multi-class. Yes he is a 28-pt build, but my wife with a 32-pt Pure Pally isn't really in any better condition. But I really guess the moral of the DDO story is.. Multi-Class, Multi-Class, Multi-Class.

Not mad, just disappointed. :(

Eudimio
05-07-2008, 08:51 PM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?


A big emphatic YES! Paladins are far worse off with even the anouncement of the planned changes.

They've lost hope. This is clearly not recognized by the developers.

Geonis
05-08-2008, 04:06 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?


Yes, I do. The fact that work time was put into extremely questionable enhancements to an already broke ability, does nothing but cause disappointment and creates/justifies a lack of faith in the developers of this game. Now, we have abilities that were added to improve a Pali's effectiveness, and they do not, but to those who don't care for playing Paladins, they only see that time was spent.

We have a thread asking questions each month, why was the question of how to help Paladins not posted in this thread? Why were some of the very intelligently thought out posts not consulted?




A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

The lowering of costs for some of the AP lines is welcome. That being said, options that add nothing or very little for large cost are not really effective/viable are they?


Edit: I find it truly sad, that the best that can be said about the upcoming "Pally Love" is at least they're not worse than before.

Yaga_Nub
05-08-2008, 06:42 AM
If all the other MMOs jumped off a bridge should DDO jump too? :rolleyes:

I think I would pay to see that.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 11:22 AM
Yes, I do. The fact that work time was put into extremely questionable enhancements to an already broke ability, does nothing but cause disappointment and creates/justifies a lack of faith in the developers of this game. Now, we have abilities that were added to improve a Pali's effectiveness, and they do not, but to those who don't care for playing Paladins, they only see that time was spent.

You just sound irrational. Smite evil is not broken, it just isn't very usefull for a strategic player. Same goes for a great number of abbilities, skills, and strategies in DDO. Disapointment is not a game mechanic.

It would only make sense that instead of denying that mod 7 adds to the class, which it does, you simply state that you are unhappy because the imporvemetns are too small or not to your liking. Denial of simple facts only undermines any argument you try to make after doing so.

stockwizard5
05-08-2008, 11:45 AM
Do you believe that Paladins are worse off after the changes planned for Module 7 than they were before it?

A number of their enhancements have had their action point costs dramatically reduced or effects improved, and several more options have been opened up for them.

Yes - they are MUCH WORSE OFF ...

The gap between a Multi Pally 11/5 or 3/13 and a Pure Pally 16 is bigger AFTER Mod 7. That is the things you are talking about benefit the multi-class more than pure-class increasing (rather than decreasing) the gap. Pure Pally is now more gimped (in comparison) than before.

Said another way -

1. Currently Multi-Class Pally builds are WAY better than Pure Class = The Problem
2. Mod7 Improves Pure Pally builds but improves Multi Pally builds even more = Makes Problem Worse

I guess I have trouble understanding the understanding gap between the players and the devs on this one :confused:

You really need to look at what Multi-Pally builds are getting (that is everything for Pally levels 1 to 11) and compare to everything that Pure-Pally builds are getting in addition (that is everthing for Pally levels 12-16) to really see the problem.

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 12:20 PM
I guess I have trouble understanding the understanding gap between the players and the devs on this one :confused:
Well, it's not a case of player vs dev understanding. As you've seen, a lot of players share the developers' misconceptions.


You really need to look at what Multi-Pally builds are getting (that is everything for Pally levels 1 to 11) and compare to everything that Pure-Pally builds are getting in addition (that is everthing for Pally levels 12-16) to really see the problem.
Yes, as I alluded to earlier.

The need for "paladin love" in DDO is to give players a good reason to continue taking paladin levels after 12. After all, the class offers some good features at low and medium levels- the problem is that from a standpoint of mechanical effectiveness, taking further paladin cannot be justified.

I counted up the paladin changes, but don't have the exact list right here. I believe the summary was that there were 21 specific paladin improvements, and 16 of them were available at level 12 or earlier. So even if features like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice are attractive to your character, they don't give a reason to stay pally. Instead, the freed APs from reduced cost of aura enhancements allows multiclass characters to pick up things like Fighter Haste Boost and Rogue Sneak Attack Training. A pure paladin benefits less from the cost reduction, as he has a smaller menu of good enhancements to buy.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 01:18 PM
1. Currently Multi-Class Pally builds are WAY better than Pure Class = The Problem
2. Mod7 Improves Pure Pally builds but improves Multi Pally builds even more = Makes Problem Worse


1. I wouldn't see that as a problem, and "WAY" better is quite a subjective statement and probably false unless you consider +1-2 to some combat trait at the expense of another "WAY" which I don't

2. I don't see how the mod changes that in the least.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 01:25 PM
I counted up the paladin changes, but don't have the exact list right here. I believe the summary was that there were 21 specific paladin improvements, and 16 of them were available at level 12 or earlier. So even if features like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice are attractive to your character, they don't give a reason to stay pally. Instead, the freed APs from reduced cost of aura enhancements allows multiclass characters to pick up things like Fighter Haste Boost and Rogue Sneak Attack Training. A pure paladin benefits less from the cost reduction, as he has a smaller menu of good enhancements to buy.

But that is how it works for each and every class in the game in terms of enhancemetns! They all can essentialy benefit from multi classing because high end enhancements are prohibitively expensive. It has nothing to due with paladins specificaly. Barbarian is a small exception because their crit rage enhancement "breaks the mold" and is both better and appears later in thier class path than any other. It's a wierd anomoly and really should have been a prestige class like enhancement for them at level 6 and 12.

Fighters, rangers, rogues are all in the "multi classing makes the most sense" cattegory along with paladins. Clerics, Wizards, Barbarians and Bards are all in the "splashing 1 level is pretty handy" zone. Only sorcerers have any strong compelling reason to stay pure.

Purity is meaningless. Just build your character for the abbilities you want them to have and all this purity and non purity stuff is moot. That is the beauty of the game. You don't have to be some cookie cutter this or that wtih a few tiny variations. There is a universe of possiblilities as to what your character can be good at. Paladins multi class especialy well, why not take advantage of that?

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 01:34 PM
But that is how it works for each and every class in the game in terms of enhancemetns! They all can essentialy benefit from multi classing because high end enhancements are prohibitively expensive.
Wrong, as has already been explained. I don't see much reason to repeat it again, but here goes:

The question was specifically about the changes caused by mod7. There are only two classes which had enhancements cheapened in mod7: paladin and rogue. So obviously, the claim that it happened to "each and every class" is blatantly untrue. In addition, of the two classes who did have reduced AP costs, Rogue is the one with a good reason to keep taking more and more levels: Every 2 rogue levels gives you another 1d6 sneak attack and over 16 skill points.

Paladin did not previously have a good reason to avoid multiclassing. And since the cost reduction has just increased the benefit you'll get from multiclassing, it has become even harder to justify taking additional paladin levels. The gap between pal16 and pal14/rog2/fig2 just got wider.

Yaga_Nub
05-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Paladin did not previously have a good reason to avoid multiclassing. And since the cost reduction has just increased the benefit you'll get from multiclassing, it has become even harder to justify taking additional paladin levels. The gap between pal16 and pal14/rog2/fig2 just got wider.

The Paladin class doesn't have a good reason for going beyond 11 because that's how it is in PnP. It has nothing to do with multi-classing. Between levels 12 and 20 the paladin gets 3 more uses of remove disease and smite evil, increased healing from LoH and a few more spells and spell slots. That's it. Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD. Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?

stockwizard5
05-08-2008, 03:04 PM
More Bad News ...

I was just running the numbers for a typical 60s End-Fight for My Capped Pally assuming "perfect" use of smites:

Under the Old System (No Smiting) DPS = 35.8
Under the Old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 49.6
Under the New System (Extra Smite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 49.4

The increased damage from Exhaulted Smite does not make up for the reduction in the number of Extra Smites over end fight durations (which is where you would think this helps the most) :(

I also looked at four rounds against the Fiend Normal (Smite Regeneration = 90s):

Under the old system (No Smiting) DPS = 30.7
Under the old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 33.5
Under the new system (Extra Smnite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 36.7

I keep looking for reasons to keep my mule ... err capped Pally ... but the more I look - the more sad Panda I become :(

llevenbaxx
05-08-2008, 03:05 PM
The Paladin class doesn't have a good reason for going beyond 11 because that's how it is in PnP. It has nothing to do with multi-classing. Between levels 12 and 20 the paladin gets 3 more uses of remove disease and smite evil, increased healing from LoH and a few more spells and spell slots. That's it. Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD. Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?

Same way PnP tried to. With Prestiege classes... er enhancements...

Yaga_Nub
05-08-2008, 03:08 PM
Same way PnP tried to. With Prestiege classes... er enhancements...

Prestige classes weren't a fix to Paladins. Prestige classes are there to expand the game not FIX a core class.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 03:13 PM
The question was specifically about the changes caused by mod7. There are only two classes which had enhancements cheapened in mod7: paladin and rogue. So obviously, the claim that it happened to "each and every class" is blatantly untrue. In addition, of the two classes who did have reduced AP costs, Rogue is the one with a good reason to keep taking more and more levels: Every 2 rogue levels gives you another 1d6 sneak attack and over 16 skill points..

Reduced AP costs benefit single class characters more than high level characters. A splash paladin may save 2 enhancement point on the cheaper auras, but a high level paladin can save as much as 12 for their existing enhancemetns. How is it better for the multi class?

Most rogues are willing to trade 1d6 sneak attack and some skill points for other class abillities such as a +6 to all their saving throws by taking two paladin levels or getting two combat feats or a number of other abbilities by taking levels in other classes. I make lots and lots of builds and nearly all the rogue builds are multi class. (actualy nearly all my builds are multi class with a very small number of exceptions)


Paladin did not previously have a good reason to avoid multiclassing. And since the cost reduction has just increased the benefit you'll get from multiclassing, it has become even harder to justify taking additional paladin levels. The gap between pal16 and pal14/rog2/fig2 just got wider.

No it didn't. It is pretty much the same. Again, if anything taking higher ammounts of the paladin enhancemetns nets a greater "savings" than it did previously. The more you have the more you save. That argument simply doesn't hold water.

Besides... if you like pal14/rog2/fig2, why not play one?

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 03:15 PM
The increased damage from Exhaulted Smite does not make up for the reduction in the number of Extra Smites over end fight durations (which is where you would think this helps the most) :(
:(

If you take Exhaulted smite you get the same number of smites. Each exaulted smite adds an additional smite use according to the devs posts.

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 03:29 PM
Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD.
It's already been explained in great detail. I have no reason to repeat it for your convenience.


Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?
We don't say that.

Yaga_Nub
05-08-2008, 03:32 PM
We don't say that.

YOU might not say that but the majority of people do.

llevenbaxx
05-08-2008, 03:39 PM
Prestige classes weren't a fix to Paladins. Prestige classes are there to expand the game not FIX a core class.

No ****...:) Its the closest thing to a "fix" that exists in PnP though. You could take you pally in different directions, offense/defense/misc, with out breaking the golden rule. I think of them as more an expansion on the pally class. Nothing else was done to make pally characters more playable to my knowledge... God knows they are dry as hell at the later levels...

stockwizard5
05-08-2008, 04:06 PM
If you take Exhaulted smite you get the same number of smites. Each exaulted smite adds an additional smite use according to the devs posts.


Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (5 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
Not sure I have seen that post ...

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 04:30 PM
No. You are the one who is wrong, and in fact you are so obviously wrong that it isn't worth replying.

Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 04:36 PM
Not sure I have seen that post ...

I looked for it... I could be wrong and may have misread the post reguarding the cooldown timer they added. Since I can prove it i'll let that go.

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!
It's already been explained several times in this thread. If you want to know, you can go back and read it.

Frodo_Lives
05-08-2008, 05:43 PM
All I know is that the Paladin class gain less from levels 12 - 16 than any other class in the game.

Every other class in the game get class abilities or high level enhancements that significantly improve their abilities. Heck the fighter who usually are thought of as getting little at high end at least get 3 extra feats which is more benificial than what the paladin gets.

Tallyn
05-08-2008, 05:48 PM
It's already been explained several times in this thread. If you want to know, you can go back and read it.

Nice answer.

Perhaps you could at least provide a link to the previous post you are referring to as your argument ending evidence? So far, I'm siding with sigtrent on this one.

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Perhaps you could at least provide a link to the previous post you are referring to as your argument ending evidence? So far, I'm siding with sigtrent on this one.
These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1701316&postcount=111).

artvan_delet
05-08-2008, 06:15 PM
More Bad News ...

I was just running the numbers for a typical 60s End-Fight for My Capped Pally assuming "perfect" use of smites:

Under the Old System (No Smiting) DPS = 35.8
Under the Old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 49.6
Under the New System (Extra Smite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 49.4

The increased damage from Exhaulted Smite does not make up for the reduction in the number of Extra Smites over end fight durations (which is where you would think this helps the most) :(

I also looked at four rounds against the Fiend Normal (Smite Regeneration = 90s):

Under the old system (No Smiting) DPS = 30.7
Under the old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 33.5
Under the new system (Extra Smnite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 36.7

I keep looking for reasons to keep my mule ... err capped Pally ... but the more I look - the more sad Panda I become :(

Your calculations also require you to spend 15 AP to get exhalted smite 3. Gonna hurt to spend 15 APs for that.

Tallyn
05-08-2008, 06:31 PM
These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1701316&postcount=111).

So you're saying this,


Yes - they are MUCH WORSE OFF ...

The gap between a Multi Pally 11/5 or 3/13 and a Pure Pally 16 is bigger AFTER Mod 7. That is the things you are talking about benefit the multi-class more than pure-class increasing (rather than decreasing) the gap. Pure Pally is now more gimped (in comparison) than before.

Said another way -

1. Currently Multi-Class Pally builds are WAY better than Pure Class = The Problem
2. Mod7 Improves Pure Pally builds but improves Multi Pally builds even more = Makes Problem Worse

I guess I have trouble understanding the understanding gap between the players and the devs on this one :confused:

You really need to look at what Multi-Pally builds are getting (that is everything for Pally levels 1 to 11) and compare to everything that Pure-Pally builds are getting in addition (that is everthing for Pally levels 12-16) to really see the problem.

Refutes this?



Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!


I don't see it. So far logic dictates that sigtrent is right.

HOWEVER, I am willing to concede that there isn't much to be gained by level past 12 as a Paladin. This is a failing of Dungeons and Dragons in general, not necessarily specific to DDO in this case. As Yaga Nub had stated earlier, the desire to add to the Paladin class beyond level 12 goes against the purists, in a way, which want to stay as true to pen and paper as possible. (I am not one of those purists) But to say that there is absolutely no benefit to continuing to level Paladin is false. Spells last longer, spellcasting level is considered higher, Lay on hands does more, Smite Evil does more. I will agree with you, it is not all that exciting, and probably underpowered. But currently, that is the way it works. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm) Fighters have similar issues currently as well.

Also, it should be noted that there are NO enhancements for ANY class for levels 15 and 16. It looks like Paladins will be the first to receive an enhancement for the new levels. So there is another example, albeit a small one, that there is a benefit to be gained to leveling up Paladins.

Since the majority of your arguments are not that the Paladin class is underpowered, but that there is no reason to level up beyond level 12 as a Paladin, what do you think would help? (If you don't want to type it out, just post up a link to a previous post to what would specifically help pure Paladins beyond level 12)

Josh
05-08-2008, 06:40 PM
YOU might not say that but the majority of people do.


No, what most people are saying is that deviation from the core rules should be avoided as a default stance. When deviations are justified, no issue. There have been examples stated ad nauseum here on the forums as to what are "necessary" deviations and what are "unnecessary" deviations. Clearly, the paladin class could use some "useful" deviations. One that comes to mind would something as simple as increasing the max to divine favor back to +5, capping at lvl 15 or so. The devs claim that WoTC forced them to change it back to bring it "more in line with PnP", but I don't buy that for one second, cause I can't EVER se WoTC giving approval for barb crit rage...

This would be a simple change to make, and would add a lot to paladins. This is an example of a justified change to the rules I believe. Food for thought.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 06:46 PM
These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1701316&postcount=111).

Easy to find, yes... but it compleately fails to address my direct point.

gpk
05-08-2008, 06:50 PM
Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD. Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?

Noone is saying DDO should stay true to pnp dnd and even if we did, that ship has LONG sailed.
It's nice to stay true to pnp where it makes SENSE, deviate where it makes SENSE.
By the same token mistakes in PnP should NOT be repeated and more than one already has.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 06:53 PM
I think DDO should stay true to the spirit of PnP, but not nessisarily the letter of the rules as it is simply a different kind of game.

Lots of things in DDO are different. Most are pretty good, some are not.

gpk
05-08-2008, 06:59 PM
Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

The problem is your only looking at a few level "splash".
If you look at Pal 10to even 14 vs a pure 16 the multiclass benefits more from AP reduction, there are more good litte enhancements now made available by the non-pally (fighter and or rogue) levels.

All I can see for my pure level 16 pally is Bulwark of Good 4, that's it.

Put in a class and skill respec system, even in a limited form, and the problem mostly fixes itself in a cheap cheesy kinda way.

Angelus_dead
05-08-2008, 07:16 PM
Put in a class and skill respec system, even in a limited form, and the problem mostly fixes itself in a cheap cheesy kinda way.
Well, a class respec doesn't fix the problem, but it does reduce the importance. If DDO allowed class respec (even if it is very slow, such as requiring you to re-earn all the XP for the changed levels) then players could build effective pal14/X2/Y2 builds today, without locking themselves out of a a future as a pal18 or pal20.

The problem now is that players face a dilemma:
1. Give up on continuing to be a paladin and switch to some mix of fighter, rogue, or ranger.
2. Stay a paladin in the hope that the developers eventually give the class something good at high level, although you're self-nerfing in the meantime.

The problem will become bigger when the next level cap increase arrives. Before that happens, it is important that the devs clarify if the upper levels of paladin will ever become worthwhile.

Premier
05-08-2008, 07:27 PM
I tried my best to read through all 7 pages of this thread. I'll admit that I skipped over all the posts that began to have a negative connotation towards either the DEVs or other players / posters. Regardless of what anyone may say about Pallys, I'm still rolling one.

15 Pally / 1 Fighter, Charismatic Khopesh wielding Dwarf named Palidan the Handsome!

Why would I do such a thing? Because I like playing DDO and I haven't tried a Pally yet. I play video games to play video games. I toss in a little roleplaying because it's kind of fun. If you're not having fun with a class, delete it and try something you may like. If you find nothing at all that tickles your fancy then maybe this game isn't for you. I think the DEVs are doing their best to keep this game balanced and I understadn that balancing an MMO is extrememly difficult. Take a break from the game if you're getting all hot and bothered. If you feel the urge to come back and play (much like I did when I took a break) then DDO isn't as bad as some make it out to be. Happy gaming and thanks DEVs for your posts within the forums. Peace!

-Premier

gpk
05-08-2008, 08:13 PM
I tried my best to read through all 7 pages of this thread. I'll admit that I skipped over all the posts that began to have a negative connotation towards either the DEVs or other players / posters. Regardless of what anyone may say about Pallys, I'm still rolling one.

15 Pally / 1 Fighter, Charismatic Khopesh wielding Dwarf named Palidan the Handsome!

Why would I do such a thing? Because I like playing DDO and I haven't tried a Pally yet. I play video games to play video games. I toss in a little roleplaying because it's kind of fun. If you're not having fun with a class, delete it and try something you may like. If you find nothing at all that tickles your fancy then maybe this game isn't for you. I think the DEVs are doing their best to keep this game balanced and I understadn that balancing an MMO is extrememly difficult. Take a break from the game if you're getting all hot and bothered. If you feel the urge to come back and play (much like I did when I took a break) then DDO isn't as bad as some make it out to be. Happy gaming and thanks DEVs for your posts within the forums. Peace!

-Premier


No offense but that's a terribly simplistic view of the situation and the game itself.

Telling people that 2 year old characters with tons of bound loot and tomes that cannot be easily replaced should just "delete" because the devs failed to deliver on their promises and most basic expectations is a cop-out.
Not everyone plays 12 toons and not every gets a kick simply by rerolling every month to try a new "build".
Some play 1-4 characters and enjoy playing them acquiring special bound items for boost here and there etc.
The game itself changed, other classes got better and better, paladins kept getting nerfed both directly and indirectly.

The devs said mod7 would rectify the situation and now the official dev reply to people realizing that mod7 does NOT contain pally love mod is essentially "Hey, we didn't nerf you this time did we?".

The paladin players, especially the pure ones had every right to expect proper adjustments to the class by mod7, we had been told repeatedly mod7 was THE pally love mod and we saw how good much of the mod6 Ranger love was, much of it to rectify imbalances created by blatantly overpowering some other classes.

Instead any half-savvy player can see the mod7 pally related stuff doesn't amount to a hill of beans, no player let alone any devs have come out and proved that it's anything but irrelevant and the entire situation is made worse by Mod6's Ranger love, Mod5 metas and XXX XXXX XXXX 2. Intsead of fewer imbalances we have more in mods 6 and 7.

To reduce the situation to a few illogical clich&#233;s doesn't help anyone or anything.

Frodo_Lives
05-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Give the Paladin the extra crit range enhancements identical to the Barbs, that would remove a lot of the complaints.

Give the Paladin extra damage on non smite attacks against evil creatures, that would remove a lot of the complaints.

Give the Paladin anything including non DPS abilities but rather anything that gives them something to stand out at higher levels, and that would remove a lot of complaints.

As it stands high level paladins get very very little, and I for one would welcome that change. My paladin still has a ton of great loot and is one of my favorite characters. But is regulated to Reaver runs and the occasional foray into GH.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 08:42 PM
The problem is your only looking at a few level "splash".
If you look at Pal 10to even 14 vs a pure 16 the multiclass benefits more from AP reduction, there are more good litte enhancements now made available by the non-pally (fighter and or rogue) levels..

The guy said that mod 7 changes, favored splash paladins more than pure paladins.. I just don't see that in any way shape or form.

You are just making the old chestnut that multi classing makes a better character. That is quite often true of many classes. Paladin perhaps more so but none the less it is nearly universal. Indeed many multi class builds include paladin levels because the class has some great features.


All I can see for my pure level 16 pally is Bulwark of Good 4, that's it.

Well you get that at 15 :). You get 4th level spells including holy sword and deathward which are both quite handy. Holy sword less so for folks that have been playing for 2 years but for newbies its quite good for a while. Deathward is always good. Cure serious is also pretty handy if you build to use it. The problem is that paladin players just don't seem to care about the spellcasting side of thier class much. Why did you roll one is the question I always ask, and the answer I always seem to get is silence.


Put in a class and skill respec system, even in a limited form, and the problem mostly fixes itself in a cheap cheesy kinda way.

I think we need skill re-specs. Class not so much. There have been many opportunities for paladins to multi class. Look at the D&D rules and what paladins get at levels 17-20... it ain't much in the DPS end of things, thats for certain. The higher level you go in D&D the more attractive mulit classing (or prestige classing) becomes. That's the game were playing.

gpk
05-08-2008, 08:58 PM
Well you get that at 15 :). You get 4th level spells including holy sword and deathward which are both quite handy. Holy sword less so for folks that have been playing for 2 years but for newbies its quite good for a while. Deathward is always good. Cure serious is also pretty handy if you build to use it. The problem is that paladin players just don't seem to care about the spellcasting side of thier class much. Why did you roll one is the question I always ask, and the answer I always seem to get is silence.

No paladins DO care about the spellcasting side, it's just that the spell selection sucks. DF and resists, thats pretty much it.
Deathward comes in clicky form or cleric form (en masse too), Holy Sword change is FINALLY something decent for some players in some situations, hopefully the mod7 boss is a big fat demon.

The only time most pallies or rangers use CMW+CSW is in Reaver if low or no clerics (charged SP). You don't need more than 1 level 4 slot, really you can do just fine with 0.
Wanna fix the spellcasting side? Add some proper Spell Compendium spells: Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura.



I think we need skill re-specs. Class not so much. There have been many opportunities for paladins to multi class. Look at the D&D rules and what paladins get at levels 17-20... it ain't much in the DPS end of things, thats for certain. The higher level you go in D&D the more attractive mulit classing (or prestige classing) becomes. That's the game were playing.

Well lest time I checked we were playing DDO not pnp DnD, also DDO doesn't have a clearly defined class/level map, no PrCs we know of etc.
All we have to go by is DDO history (what love other classes get for instance) and what the devs tell us.
These either mean the devs have to deliver on what they promised or put in a class respec system and or PrC like stuff; and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

SteeleTrueheart
05-08-2008, 09:54 PM
The guy said that mod 7 changes, favored splash paladins more than pure paladins.. I just don't see that in any way shape or form.

You are just making the old chestnut that multi classing makes a better character. That is quite often true of many classes. Paladin perhaps more so but none the less it is nearly universal. Indeed many multi class builds include paladin levels because the class has some great features.

<snip>

I think we need skill re-specs. Class not so much. There have been many opportunities for paladins to multi class. Look at the D&D rules and what paladins get at levels 17-20... it ain't much in the DPS end of things, thats for certain. The higher level you go in D&D the more attractive mulit classing (or prestige classing) becomes. That's the game were playing.


Edited by me.

I agree skill re-specs would be useful and Class respecs should never be allowed. (You are given multiple character slots)

As far as multiclassing is attractive:
Sorcerers
Wizards
Clerics
They will neve splash more than 1 or 2 levels of something else without seriously weakening their class.

Bards (16th Level is when they get their level 6 spells, 18th Mass sugestion, plus an increase to known spells)
Rangers (17th Hide in plain sight, 20th Another favoured enemy and bonuses to all current FE)
Barbarian (Tireless rage, more rages per day, and the great Mighty Rage at level 20)
Rogues (+1d6 sneak attack every 2 levels and a special ability every 3 levels above 10)
Fighters (a bonus feat every 2 levels)
These classes get pretty good benefits at higher levels (Rangers maybe not as much as others, but hey they have 2 weapon styles) and while some benefits look weak, later game additions may add to them.
I fervently hope that they implement some great fighter class feats and make some more rogue special abilities (DnD 4.0 may help here)
They can all (esp fighter) handle splashing a few levels of other classes though.

Paladins
The only reason to go above level 11 (other than enhancements) is for level 4 spells. Nice level 4 spells may be implemented some day (I hope) so level 14 may be of benefit. Other than that you get more remove diseases and 2 more smites. Their mounts also get more powerful as they level and multiclassing has restrictions.
DDO does not have mounts, we were given an aura instead. DDO has no multiclassing restrictions (apart from 3 classes).
This class practically screams Multiclass.

Yaga_Nub
05-08-2008, 10:15 PM
No, what most people are saying is that deviation from the core rules should be avoided as a default stance. When deviations are justified, no issue. There have been examples stated ad nauseum here on the forums as to what are "necessary" deviations and what are "unnecessary" deviations. Clearly, the paladin class could use some "useful" deviations. One that comes to mind would something as simple as increasing the max to divine favor back to +5, capping at lvl 15 or so. The devs claim that WoTC forced them to change it back to bring it "more in line with PnP", but I don't buy that for one second, cause I can't EVER se WoTC giving approval for barb crit rage...

This would be a simple change to make, and would add a lot to paladins. This is an example of a justified change to the rules I believe. Food for thought.


I think DDO should stay true to the spirit of PnP, but not nessisarily the letter of the rules as it is simply a different kind of game.

Lots of things in DDO are different. Most are pretty good, some are not.

I'm with you on both of those comments. But instead of coming up with BCR I think the suggest for DF is a much more reasonable deviation from DnD. Letting DF go to +5 again stays true to the spirit of DnD while being made relevant to a real-time MMO. Changing Smite Evil to a 6 or 10 second duration clickie with a cooldown timer makes SE relevant to a real-time MMO while staying true to DnD. Even adding in a PrC enhancement stays true to DnD. But not if any of those changes are dependent on staying "pure."

I guess in the end I'm just against the devs creating something to entice us to play a pure paladin. YOU either have to want to do it or not. It's not about what you get for staying pure. It's a choice. You know what choice you are making when you decide to forego putting levels in another class. If it's not worth it to you then don't do it and move on.

gpk
05-08-2008, 10:22 PM
YOU either have to want to do it or not. It's not about what you get for staying pure. It's a choice. You know what choice you are making when you decide to forego putting levels in another class. If it's not worth it to you then don't do it and move on.

That's not true, again we do NOT have a clearly defined map for a class from level 1-epic, we don't know how turbine will implement some class stuff at higher levels such as enhancement PrCs. The situation is further complicated due to enhancements, we don't know what higher level enhancements will be available.

It's quite simple really, changes to skills,feats and classes beg for a proper respec system, we have a feat respec; thats 1/3 of the way there but still way short of the mark.
Barring that you have to put your money where your muoth is and deliver on Class X Mod Y love, you can't give good stuff to Class Z in mod W but tottally hose class X, all you've done is further imbalance the game and screwed many players.

It would be a choice ONLY if we had all the available info, right now it's not a choice, it's a gamble.

P.S. Easier than uncapping a pally DF is to add the pally only pnp compliant spell Righteous Fury.

Geonis
05-08-2008, 10:30 PM
You just sound irrational. Smite evil is not broken, it just isn't very usefull for a strategic player. Same goes for a great number of abbilities, skills, and strategies in DDO. Disapointment is not a game mechanic.

It would only make sense that instead of denying that mod 7 adds to the class, which it does, you simply state that you are unhappy because the imporvemetns are too small or not to your liking. Denial of simple facts only undermines any argument you try to make after doing so.

I admitted that changing the enhancement point costs helped. That being said, months of work on enhancements to Smite Evil, that results in 20-odd points of enhancments being out DPS'd by a 1 point "Attack Speed Boost" is ridiculous. Now, when the Pallys begin asking for more "Love", a large number of people will point to MOD 7 and say "You got your love time". If you don't see this already, then you are just being irrational. These things together add up to a negative in my opinion. So, yes, I see the results as a whole as taking away from the Paladin.

Also, I think that after months of announcing "MOD 7 Pally Love MOD", to hose it up this bad, and then for the only reply to be "Well, at least we didn't nerf them any worse", shows nothing but disdain for your customer, and if I was your boss, you would at least receive some sort of training in customer service.

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 10:31 PM
Deathward comes in clicky form or cleric form (en masse too), Holy Sword change is FINALLY something decent for some players in some situations, hopefully the mod7 boss is a big fat demon..

Haste and greater heroism come in clicke form too but you don't see casters complaining about those as bieng useless spells. Spells that cant be scroll or clickie cast are pretty few and far between. That in no way eliminates the usefullness of being able to cast them yourself. You can do it far more times and with far less effort than if you use clickies or scrolls to do it. The fact that other classes have those spells is also moot. Paladins get watered down cleric magic. Is that really news to anyone?


The only time most pallies or rangers use CMW+CSW is in Reaver if low or no clerics (charged SP). You don't need more than 1 level 4 slot, really you can do just fine with 0.

My main is a Cleric 6 Fighter 7 Ranger 2. I use CSM and CMW a lot, especialy in the reaver where I can get the mana charge. I throw that thing out constantly in there, scraping up clerics and casters, healing myself after gravity shifts and so on. I'm about as good with that as a typical pure paladin is. Its usefull and especialy in the reaver since there isn't much for a mixed tank to do in there until the balls are all lit up but stay out of trouble or try to distract the air elementals.

Need isn't much of a measure. You don't need more dps or more of anything, its just a question of what you want. If you don't want what the 4th level spells have to offer... multiclass. They arn't bad spells, you just don't want to use them.


Wanna fix the spellcasting side? Add some proper Spell Compendium spells: Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura..

Generaly I'm all for that, although I'd point out the spell compendium like many compendium books has its share of fairly broken spells and most DMs I personaly play with use it on a "per approval" basis to avoid any nasty game breaking surprises.


Well lest time I checked we were playing DDO not pnp DnD, also DDO doesn't have a clearly defined class/level map, no PrCs we know of etc.

Actualy id does have a pretty well defines class level map. It differs in some areas but its is basicaly the same. There is nothing in paladin land as basic class abilities to give you much hope of damage increases. Spells... possible. Enhancements... also possible. but there is nothing about the paladin class in any form of D&D that is much about DPS abbiliites so if that is what you are after get off the bus now!


All we have to go by is DDO history (what love other classes get for instance) and what the devs tell us.
These either mean the devs have to deliver on what they promised or put in a class respec system and or PrC like stuff; and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well the dev's really don't promise much of anything specific untill a few weeks before a mod goes live. So basicaly you don't have much of anything to go on other than thier past actions and as you say, what they do with other classes. Paladins may get some nice prestige class enhancements at some point, but those come at level 6 so its unlikely to give you what you want. If you get damage spells like the ones you want, it will likely come after they have had a chance to see the new stuff in action a while.

Paladin is not an offensively oriented martial class. Never has been, probably never will be. DPS on a paladin should be somewhere near a rangers, probably a tad less. It should fall short of a DPS fighter and definatley short of a barbarian. It should be better than a rogue not getting sneak attack but worse than a rogue who is getting sneak attack. It should probably be better than a bard or cleric (this is probably where it misses the mark in DDO, bards can do crazy damage and clerics can pretty much match paladins).

sigtrent
05-08-2008, 10:39 PM
Also, I think that after months of announcing "MOD 7 Pally Love MOD", to hose it up this bad, and then for the only reply to be "Well, at least we didn't nerf them any worse", shows nothing but disdain for your customer, and if I was your boss, you would at least receive some sort of training in customer service.

Here's the thing. Mod 7 was not PALLY LOVE MOD. Its MONKS are finaly here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mod. Pally love is at best an side note to the monks being added. Pally love hasn't been announced, it was casualy mentioned a few times. I think you folks let your excitement carry you a way a bit and try to make more out of it than it was. I don't know what your expectations were but in the MMO worlds its always best to reserve judgement until you actualy see what happens and give it a try. Things that sound good can be bad and things that sound small can turn out to be huge.

I don't think Turbine has shown any disdain for anyone. They just don't happen to agree with your opinion about paladins. Neither do I but I don't have any disdain for you because of it.

axebender
05-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Here's the thing. Mod 7 was not PALLY LOVE MOD. Its MONKS are finaly here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mod. Pally love is at best an side note to the monks being added. Pally love hasn't been announced, it was casualy mentioned a few times. I think you folks let your excitement carry you a way a bit and try to make more out of it than it was. I don't know what your expectations were but in the MMO worlds its always best to reserve judgement until you actualy see what happens and give it a try. Things that sound good can be bad and things that sound small can turn out to be huge.

I don't think Turbine has shown any disdain for anyone. They just don't happen to agree with your opinion about paladins. Neither do I but I don't have any disdain for you because of it.

sorry but u do not know what u are talking about pally love was anounced for mod 7 waaaaaay before we knew monks where comming...they dev just hope the comming of monks will off set there forgotten promises

gpk
05-08-2008, 11:12 PM
Haste and greater heroism come in clicke form too but you don't see casters complaining about those as bieng useless spells. Spells that cant be scroll or clickie cast are pretty few and far between. That in no way eliminates the usefullness of being able to cast them yourself. You can do it far more times and with far less effort than if you use clickies or scrolls to do it. The fact that other classes have those spells is also moot. Paladins get watered down cleric magic. Is that really news to anyone?

Well for starters random haste clickies are 30 second duration and not as common as say DP clickies,Greater Heroism off a gird last 11 minutes. You know why casters don't complain them about being useless spells? Because they have OTHER spells to cast and more often; they're happy when users self-GH. .
The spell compendium adds quite a few GOOD pally only spells at all spell levels, not just watered down cleric spells; it rectified some of the problems with srd dnd.
In fact even the SRD has a couple of good pally only spells wich would have made a huge difference since day 1; Turbine chose to give pallies almost 100&#37; cleric hand-me-downs, that doesn't make it right however.


Need isn't much of a measure. You don't need more dps or more of anything, its just a question of what you want. If you don't want what the 4th level spells have to offer... multiclass. They arn't bad spells, you just don't want to use them.

There IS A need for DPS if the devs said they screwed up with crit rage 2 and made up a spell that gives ranger +2 str and +3 damage per swing to compensate, but give nothing to paladins or fighters.
That's +1 AB and +4 damage to a Ranger, the rough equivalent of 3 core fighter class feats: weap focus, weap spec, gr weap spec; in fact it's better than those 3 feats as it applies to everything.
Yes multiclass, please go back in time and email me a DDO class map from 1 to 20.



Generaly I'm all for that, although I'd point out the spell compendium like many compendium books has its share of fairly broken spells and most DMs I personaly play with use it on a "per approval" basis to avoid any nasty game breaking surprises.

Wether or not you think Spell Compendium spells are broken is kinda moot at this point. The cat lept outta the bag a while back and other classes got good and useful SC spells.
Tell me though would you have approved a fabricated Ram's Might as DDO has?
The Ram's Might (which really only shares the name from it's SC counterpart) closed the gap that was mistakenly widened, but put fighters and paladins further back at the same time.



Actualy id does have a pretty well defines class level map. It differs in some areas but its is basicaly the same. There is nothing in paladin land as basic class abilities to give you much hope of damage increases. Spells... possible. Enhancements... also possible. but there is nothing about the paladin class in any form of D&D that is much about DPS abbiliites so if that is what you are after get off the bus now!

No there is not a well defined class map, spells and enhancements and PrC alone add a HUGE unknown factor to the mix and things are always in a state of flux.
Please don't try to straw-man me with the "it's alll about DPS and BBN envy" argument either, it does neither of us any good.
Once more oversimplifying the real situation doesn't help anything either.



Well the dev's really don't promise much of anything specific untill a few weeks before a mod goes live. So basicaly you don't have much of anything to go on other than thier past actions and as you say, what they do with other classes. Paladins may get some nice prestige class enhancements at some point, but those come at level 6 so its unlikely to give you what you want. If you get damage spells like the ones you want, it will likely come after they have had a chance to see the new stuff in action a while.

No mod7 was said to be THE pally love mod.


Paladin is not an offensively oriented martial class. Never has been, probably never will be. DPS on a paladin should be somewhere near a rangers, probably a tad less. It should fall short of a DPS fighter and definatley short of a barbarian. It should be better than a rogue not getting sneak attack but worse than a rogue who is getting sneak attack. It should probably be better than a bard or cleric (this is probably where it misses the mark in DDO, bards can do crazy damage and clerics can pretty much match paladins).

Again why are you impying "it's all about DPS/BBN envy"? It's clearly not so leave that straw-man in the closet where he belongs.
Is a little more DPS and burst DPS needed to fix past mistakes and class imbalances? Yes. Clearly even the devs agree with the players on this as 3 "new things" are Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites and a long overdue player suggested tweak to Holy Sword.
As such, they warrant examination and comparison to spells, abilities and boost given to other classes, especially to things like Ram's Might.

The problem is Divine Sacrifice it not only not a spell a for "easy fights" as suggested, it's implementation is very poor at best; it suffers from all the "special attack" issues and the ratio of damage dealt/taken is completely wrong by DDO standards. Well meaning ? Yes, but a failed implementation wich can easily be tweaked by reducing the self damage to 1-3, getting rid of the silly +1 crit and adding more base D6s or simply replacing it with the better and more fitting Righteous Fury spell.

Exalted Smite on the other hand is an insignifcant boost to an already terribly weak ability and pumping tons of AP into it can't match a level 1 ftr/rog boost. Well meaning ? Sure, but it's again a failed implementation which can either be tweaked properly or simply replaced by the bettr for many reasons Divine Might.

I haven't heard ANYONE suggest that the pally should all of a sudden be DPS king, but if the focus should be more on defense then make it so, 1 little BoG4 hardly cuts it.

Incidentally you don't think DDO rangers have just a "bit" more DPS than a DDO pally do you?

gpk
05-08-2008, 11:25 PM
The truly funny thing about people who tend to have opposing views (to those who think mod7 pally love is a sham) is that there are certain "taboo" topics none of them want to touch.

-None of them argue that there exists a "synergy" between bodyfeeder and virtue.

-None of them argue that Divine Sacrifice is for "easy fights" , none argue that the damage ratios are OK for DDO (None have said they like Vicious either).

-None argue that a 1 little action point level 1 ftr/rog haste boost beats 16-20 points of Exalted+Extra Smite in actual "burst" damage.

Why? Is it simply because it relates to what a dev said and thinks?

Guess you wouldn't want to publicy agree with an erroneous statement a dev made nor would you want to publicly disagree with it.

axebender
05-09-2008, 02:13 AM
The truly funny thing about people who tend to have opposing views (to those who think mod7 pally love is a sham) is that there are certain "taboo" topics none of them want to touch.

-None of them argue that there exists a "synergy" between bodyfeeder and virtue.

-None of them argue that Divine Sacrifice is for "easy fights" , none argue that the damage ratios are all OK for DDO (None have said they like Vicious either).

-None argue that a 1 little action point level 1 ftr/rog haste boost beats 16-20 points of Exalted+Extra Smite in actual "burst" damage.

Why? Is it simply because it relates to what a dev said and thinks?

Guess you wouldn't want to publicy agree with an erroneous statement a dev made nor would you want to publicly disagree with it.

you know what is funny is that i was thinking the same thing..some of the devs statements have really been not what i expected to hear..but as far as the people that dont speak of those things....imho sometime i think the devs offer free game play for people that dont really understand the problem to just come in hear and argue with us so, we can get mad and get infraction points then we cant use the forum to complain....omg i just think i uncovered a conspiracy...someone open an x file on this....

sephiroth1084
05-09-2008, 04:49 AM
I can never figure out how to wrap quote tags, so I won't.

Sure, paladins are not traditionally geared towards straight DPS, BUT neither are bards, yet every battle bard I play with can out-kill me with ease. Wizards aren't either (in melee), yet I know a few battle wizards who can out-kill my paladin/fighter...that's with more power from multiclassing, and still falling behind (supposedly) tertiary DPSers.

Paladins, outside of the PHB 3.5 in PnP, DO receive abilities that boost their DPS, whether we're talking abotu Divine Might, any of the several other divine feats that boost damage, give retributive damage, or extra damage vs. undead, or the Charging Smite ability from the PHB II, or the Rhino's Rush spell from the SC. Plus, PnP paladins have built in HUGE DPS when they are mounted. We have no mounts, so that is a moot point here, but the fact is that paladins, after the PHB was released began accruing some ways to deal more damage. Not on par with a barbarian in all situations, but big boosts in some, whether just vs. undead, or evil outsiders, or while charging, or while mounted.

Personally, I feel that paladins should have some of that burst DPS, especially against certain enemies. If all they did was give paladins and enhancement or feat choice that made them REALLY good against undead or evil outsiders, I'd be happier. Maybe even happy. Honestly, paladins SHOULD be #1 at hurting some things. Sun Devotion out of Complete Champion comes to mind, or Awesome Smite...not more DPS, but something unique and useful.

Yaga_Nub
05-09-2008, 06:47 AM
Look, as long as we are using turn-based spells and abilities in a real-time MMO there are going to be issues. Letting Rangers and Paladins have full spell level was a great first start for moving from DnD to DDO. Why? Because the action changes much faster than it can in a turn-based system, because distances aren't exact in DDO, there are more encounters than DnD and more critters per encounter than in DnD.

One thing that they messed up though is that any spell that is 6 seconds long per level in DnD SHOULD be 18 or 24 seconds long per level in DDO because the encounters and their difficulty are at least 3 to 4 times harder and longer. Same thing with Smite Evil. It should be a 6 to 12 second clickie with a cooldown. If SE had a duration we wouldn't have as big an issue with the bad collision detection and mobs that can be in front of you one second and then behind you faster than you swing causing a wasted SE. In that scenario, you would just turn around and still get a couple of swipes at mob. This would do A LOT to bring a Paladin's damage in line with the other classes. Divine Favor shouldn't be one minute max in DDO. I know that they kept that true to DnD but again it should be about 3 minutes per cast. The real time nature of DDO forces every paladin to have one extra clickie per battle because of the short duration of DF. Yes I know you can extend it to a whole two minutes but then you're asking the paladin to burn a feat to increase their effectiveness. Another spell that should be looked at for paladins is the Virture spell. Adding 20 hit points to a character in DDO is nothing. To make the spell equal to it's effectiveness in DnD you would need to make that 50 to 80 hit points.

We need rebalancing across the board. From my perspective, the original devs weren't planning on this much power creep so they didn't think they needed to take a look at spell durations and effects or single attack effects such as Smite Evil as much as they should have. I hope that the current devs will keep their nose to the grind, get us up to level 20 so we have all the information possible for character builds and then start rebalancing the game to what it has actually become. Choosing a class and the direction you want to take it will ALWAYS be a gamble in DDO because it's a game that can be updated very quickly unlike DnD. Or rather you and I can't update it like we can modify a DnD campaign. The devs are the DMs here and we will always have to adapt to what they drop on us.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 06:53 AM
Sure, paladins are not traditionally geared towards straight DPS, BUT neither are bards, yet every battle bard I play with can out-kill me with ease. Wizards aren't either (in melee), yet I know a few battle wizards who can out-kill my paladin/fighter...that's with more power from multiclassing, and still falling behind (supposedly) tertiary DPSers.


Then your pally build was not built for DPS. Assuming that the Bard isn't singing songs to themselves, there is no way a Bard can out kill a Paladin(in the long run in terms of DPS dealt) with the same Bard buffs. Bards get no damage increasing spells except Rage, they get no damage increasing enhancements (except songs which they share).

Divine Favor alone would make two identical builds (strength based TWF builds for example) give the edge to the Paladin. You also have a higher natural to-hit from more BAB.

IF you are using a sword/shield combo then of course a TWF or THF Bard will outkill you. That is a difference in melee styles though not a class difference.

I am sorry but you cannot build a sword/board Paladin, and expect to compete with DPS builds. If you truly want to build a DPS Paladin you need to max your strength and take either all the TWF or all the THF feats.

If what people are asking for is to make a Paladin with comparable DPS to DPS builds while using a shield and spreading their stats to charisma and other things that is way off.

If you max your strength and go for offensive feats then a Paladin is very close to a fighter build. Divine Favor at +3 pretty much cancels out the benefit from greater weapon focus/spec. The Fighter would have more feats and probably 1-2 more bonus from stregnth. The Paladin has much better saves and some healing ability. I really don't see much problem with the class as it is (so again clearly while some people see a problem many do not). I don't see how you can discount the spell casting and save advantage Paladins have.

Also, why should classes be encouraged to stay pure? Most full BAB classes mutli-classed are ususally better than pure class builds. A level 20 Fighter is weaker than a 16 level fighter with rogue or paladin levels (big deal). Most Rangers would be better off with Monk(when they come out) or Paladin levels. Most Paladins would benefit from 4 levels of Fighter or Rogue for evasion. Rarely do you see pure class min/max builds in 3.5 for full BAB classes.

That said I would also be more than fine with adding PrC type enahancements and more spells for Paladins and every other class which are also missing many good spells.

gpk
05-09-2008, 07:44 AM
Also, why should classes be encouraged to stay pure? Most full BAB classes mutli-classed are ususally better than pure class builds. A level 20 Fighter is weaker than a 16 level fighter with rogue or paladin levels (big deal). Most Rangers would be better off with Monk(when they come out) or Paladin levels. Most Paladins would benefit from 4 levels of Fighter or Rogue for evasion. Rarely do you see pure class min/max builds in 3.5 for full BAB classes.


Because this is DDO not PnP DnD 3.5, we don't have a clearly defined roadmap to follow.
We don't know how the higher level enhancements will play out, what the PrC-like enhancements will be etc.

If all these pure pallies are given the option to put in some rogue or fighter levels now that we know what a joke mod7 "pally love" is don't you think many would multiclass?
If they knew then what we know now I'm sure TONS would have stopped their pally level at 11-12 or at most 14.

We expected promises to be kept and some consistency in the "love"; why on earth would paladins expect to not get at the very least the same quality love Rangers got in mod6? For most, equivalent love would have been enough to stay pure-class in anticipation of future additions and changes where multiclassing might hurt you.

Honestly what with all the recent preachy "well you should have multiclassed" posts, do you guys have access to a time machine I haven't heard of? Was the time machine mentioned in the WDA and I missed it? If so please go forward in time then come back and post the complete DDO class roadmap for us, it would prove very helpful.

P.S. Incidentally, not nerfing a class when you promised to fix it is still a nerf.

llevenbaxx
05-09-2008, 07:47 AM
The problem will become bigger when the next level cap increase arrives. Before that happens, it is important that the devs clarify if the upper levels of paladin will ever become worthwhile.

When you say "upper levels", do you basically mean level 19&20? I dont think I would like to see "worthwhile" be crammed all into 1-2 levels at the end just so pureclass characters can feel viable. It should a gradual thing, done throughout progression, not instant viability at the end. This would imo be poor design and have just as many people complaining as we have now.

DDO should stay away from supercharging level 20 enhancements in general becasue in most cases the pureclass builds already have a leg up all but the 1-2 level splashers, paladin and fighter being the exception. You cant change that classes are front loaded in 3.5, a character with 1-2 splash level will almost always be a little better, DDO didnt do this, 3.5 did.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 08:51 AM
If you max your strength and go for offensive feats then a Paladin is very close to a fighter build. Divine Favor at +3 pretty much cancels out the benefit from greater weapon focus/spec. The Fighter would have more feats and probably 1-2 more bonus from stregnth. The Paladin has much better saves and some healing ability. I really don't see much problem with the class as it is (so again clearly while some people see a problem many do not). I don't see how you can discount the spell casting and save advantage Paladins have.

Also, why should classes be encouraged to stay pure? Most full BAB classes mutli-classed are ususally better than pure class builds. A level 20 Fighter is weaker than a 16 level fighter with rogue or paladin levels (big deal). Most Rangers would be better off with Monk(when they come out) or Paladin levels. Most Paladins would benefit from 4 levels of Fighter or Rogue for evasion. Rarely do you see pure class min/max builds in 3.5 for full BAB classes.


I have already shown that a level 16 human paladin with maxed out strength does less 1H damage than a level 16 human fighter with maxed strength and Weapon Foci + Weapon Specialization Feats. If the developers add the Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats then Paladins will fall by the way side, unless we are given the proper spells to compensate for the disparity. Paladins have nothing that even compares to fighter melee haste, and don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage. I for one don't want to play a fighter or barbarian, and I believe my class should get the attention it needs and deserves. If you like fighters and barbarians that's fine go advocate for them, but don't beat down paladins any further into the ground.

Barbarian vs Fighter vs Paladin (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1699691&postcount=70)

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 09:18 AM
I have already shown that a level 16 human paladin with maxed out strength does less 1H damage than a level 16 human fighter with maxed strength and Weapon Foci + Weapon Specialization Feats. If the developers add the Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats then Paladins will fall by the way side, unless we are given the proper spells to compensate for the disparity. Paladins have nothing that even compares to fighter melee haste, and don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage. I for one don't want to play a fighter or barbarian, and I believe my class should get the attention it needs and deserves. If you like fighters and barbarians that's fine go advocate for them, but don't beat down paladins any further into the ground.

Barbarian vs Fighter vs Paladin (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1699691&postcount=70)

Paladins should do less DPS than Fighters they get better saves and spells. Seriously if you don't think self healing, wand usage, better saves, and pally auras are beneficial compared to a small disadvantage in DPS then build a fighter, it is called trade offs.

What you are wanting is irrational, you cannot have better DPS than a Fighter and still be balanced given the other things Paladins can do. It just doesn't make any sense.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 09:41 AM
The need for "paladin love" in DDO is to give players a good reason to continue taking paladin levels after 12. After all, the class offers some good features at low and medium levels- the problem is that from a standpoint of mechanical effectiveness, taking further paladin cannot be justified.



Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.

creithne
05-09-2008, 10:03 AM
I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

Coldin
05-09-2008, 10:21 AM
You know, I think I'm going to roll up a halfling paladin. :cool:

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 10:21 AM
I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

I understand that, and it would be great if they told us the long term goal, I am also fine with getting xp credit for scraping a character so you could auto level a new one or some other total re-spec system.

Welcome to MMO land where things always change, nothing is planned out forever, and everyone of every class is one nerf away from oblivion and sub-optimization.

This is an issue with dynamic online (and poorly planned IMO) online games. I really don't think they know what they are going to do long term, I think they plan out major features somewhat, but have a very poor overall vision of the game. I think as well this is why you don't see maps of classes to level 20, plans beyond that etc....

None of that though is Paladin specific. Pretty much every class except Wizard/Sorc/Cleric has the same dilemma. Should I take some other class or stay with one in case "something good" is added at high levels that I might miss.

My guess is, if they follow 3.5, that something great will never come for Paladins, Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, since that is true of PnP. My guess is that MC builds will be a little stronger for those classes. So, most people with take 10-15 levels of those classes and combine it with something else.

I mean look at Paladin 14/Fighter 6, now you have full divine favor, 4 extra feats, +2 to strength, and weapon spec. That is "better" than a Fighter 20 or a Paladin 20 would be given what we have in the game today. I just don't see what is "wrong" with that combination being better in terms of one area (DPS).

Gunga
05-09-2008, 10:27 AM
Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.


/signed. I've been trying to say the same, albeit with less eloquence, for a long time. I do still think that gpk has a point with the pali spells. I don't think that the addition of the pali spells will out balance the class, but make it more enjoyable to play a pali to max level.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 10:41 AM
I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with at least half this comment. You know at base what to expect for levels 17-20. Go look at the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/

Ok, now I half agree with you, because you don't know what Enhancements they are going to add, and not sure which spells they will choose to add to the game as well as feats later on.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.

Alot of Paladins have been asking for things that exist in 3.5. For instance, the Blessed Aim, Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura spells all exist in the Spell Compendium. Two of these spells give advantages to all party members, two of them strengthen a Paladin. These are not made up.

Not to mention the version of Ram's Might that was added to DDO functions way better than the Spell Compendium version.

Alot of Paladins also would like to see some Divine Feats where we use turn undead attempts to boost something(Divine Might, Divine Shield et al).

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

Yaga_Nub
05-09-2008, 10:48 AM
DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

I disagree. DDO doesn't need to or should it cater to anyone.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 10:52 AM
Alot of Paladins have been asking for things that exist in 3.5. For instance, the Blessed Aim, Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura spells all exist in the Spell Compendium. Two of these spells give advantages to all party members, two of them strengthen a Paladin. These are not made up.

Not to mention the version of Ram's Might that was added to DDO functions way better than the Spell Compendium version.

Alot of Paladins also would like to see some Divine Feats where we use turn undead attempts to boost something(Divine Might, Divine Shield et al).

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

I looked and found none of those spells in the d20 SRD, are they from some other source book, not to say that they might add them (although one always has to consider whether to allow things). Just because some book included it doesn't mean it was well thought out. I mean every DM (Including Turbine) has to make the decision on whether a particular feat/spell/item etc... will be allowed.

The last statement you made is clearly your (and most of the other people advocating on this thread) opinion. I actually do not agree that DDO needs to do anything at all to cater to people who don't want to multi-class beyond what is already in 3.5.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 11:17 AM
DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

In fact DDO already does this far beyond what PnP does with the enhancement system. A better system takes any kind of non-class related enhancement and ties it to feats and abilities rather than class. So only very specific things like Bard Song enhancement would require class levels.

Strength I - Adds +1 to strength
Requires - 3 AP spent and 18 base strength

Tempest I - Blah blah
Requires - X AP spent Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-TWF

Toughness I-5 extra hp from toughness
Requires-Toughness feat

That is a much more 3.5 oriented enhancement system. It would also address a lot of the imbalance that you are talking about with the Paladin class without having to change what the class is about.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 11:19 AM
I looked and found none of those spells in the d20 SRD, are they from some other source book, not to say that they might add them (although one always has to consider whether to allow things). Just because some book included it doesn't mean it was well thought out. I mean every DM (Including Turbine) has to make the decision on whether a particular feat/spell/item etc... will be allowed.

The last statement you made is clearly your (and most of the other people advocating on this thread) opinion. I actually do not agree that DDO needs to do anything at all to cater to people who don't want to multi-class beyond what is already in 3.5.

They are all in the Spell Compendium book. The d20 SRD mainly has stuff from the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual 1.

In my humble experience, most DMs will cave in given enough prodding, free lunches help too :P

Lucian_Navarro
05-09-2008, 11:23 AM
Yes, they destroyed Pally's... think I'll just delete mine.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 11:27 AM
In fact DDO already does this far beyond what PnP does with the enhancement system. A better system takes any kind of non-class related enhancement and ties it to feats and abilities rather than class. So only very specific things like Bard Song enhancement would require class levels.

Strength I - Adds +1 to strength
Requires - 3 AP spent and 18 base strength

Tempest I - Blah blah
Requires - X AP spent Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-TWF

Toughness I-5 extra hp from toughness
Requires-Toughness feat

That is a much more 3.5 oriented enhancement system. It would also address a lot of the imbalance that you are talking about with the Paladin class without having to change what the class is about.

Well I've just been advocating adding new Paladin spells. Balancing the enhancement system is a separate issue.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 11:33 AM
I disagree. DDO doesn't need to or should it cater to anyone.

Try telling that to your management when no one plays your game and the company is going bankrupt. The purpose of an online MMO is to generate revenue. The revenue come from 2 sources 1. The initial game CD/DVD and 2. Monthly Subscriptions. If you have no more monthly subscribers then you have no revenue. I would assume that Turbine wants to keep it's revenue so they probably are going to have to cater to their players.

Taerdra
05-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Many aspects of the enhancement system are that many are actually substitutes for feats or class features of PrCs in the first place. Take Barbarian for example: without any lose of feats or any original class features, the average Barb has Extra Rage (essentially a feat for free), Extend Rage (essentially a feat for free), and other features like Power Rage and Power Attack (essentially class features of Frenzied Berserker without the side effects). In PnP terms, most Barbs in this game are Frenzied Berserkers, not pure Barbs. The idea of the "pure" barb in this game is false. I can point out many other instances of same in other classes as well.

The issue is that the Paladin's versions of similar things are underpowered or mechanically bogus. The same can be said about rogues and fighters, but for different reasons. The Paladins in this game already are not "pure" by default. Talk about pure/impure just misses the point entirely. The main point is a) improve the enhancements; b) translate Smite to a real-time scenario like everything else in DDO has been; and c) add spells which is not a problem exclusively to Paladins -- totally separate issues from making a pure Pally valid to play which is already irrelevant via enhancements anyway.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Well I've just been advocating adding new Paladin spells. Balancing the enhancement system is a separate issue.

Well that is a tough one, if you remove the enhancement system then you are left to me with a pretty close approximation of PnP. If you took away all the rage enhancements, tempest, fighter's strength, etc., etc. I think there would be very few balance issues at all.

99% of this games problems have come out of the overpowered enhancement system (and item inflation).

Again I am fine with adding spells, for all classes the Bard list is pathetic and level 8 cleric spells are not so hot either.

Adding spells, even 4th level, would not seem to address many peoples complaints about pure Paladins. At some point those spells can be cast by anyone with 15 levels of Paladin (and I am not sure if all the spells you are adding are 4th level).

Alcides
05-09-2008, 11:55 AM
Well that is a tough one, if you remove the enhancement system then you are left to me with a pretty close approximation of PnP. If you took away all the rage enhancements, tempest, fighter's strength, etc., etc. I think there would be very few balance issues at all.

99&#37; of this games problems have come out of the overpowered enhancement system (and item inflation).

Again I am fine with adding spells, for all classes the Bard list is pathetic and level 8 cleric spells are not so hot either.

Adding spells, even 4th level, would not seem to address many peoples complaints about pure Paladins. At some point those spells can be cast by anyone with 15 levels of Paladin (and I am not sure if all the spells you are adding are 4th level).

Blessed Aim - Level 2 adds +2 morale? bonus to ranged attack rolls.
Righteous Fury - Level 3 Adds +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength, +5 Temporary hit points per caster level.
Silverbeard - Level 2 adds +2 sacred bonus to paladin's armor class.
Righteous Aura - Level 4 - I believe adds a +2 sacred bonus to saves and AC to all members of the party.

I don't have Spell Compendium in front of me but that is the gist of what they do. I think they did a good job with the Paladin Enhancement changes, but they short changed us on adding new spells. I'm sorry but Angelskin is not that great of a spell. The beef boils down to paladins losing +2 hit/+2 damage from the "Divine Favor nerf" and losing +1 AC/+1 Saves from the Paladin Aura. They're giving back the +1 AC, adding Righteous Fury gives back the +2 hit/+2 damage lost from the "Divine Favor nerf". Adding the additional +1 Saves to the save Aura at a higher level would be fine by me.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 12:02 PM
I don't have Spell Compendium in front of me but that is the gist of what they do. I think they did a good job with the Paladin Enhancement changes, but they short changed us on adding new spells. I'm sorry but Angelskin is not that great of a spell.

This is one of the most reasonable statement I've heard in this thread so far.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 12:08 PM
Honestly what with all the recent preachy "well you should have multiclassed" posts, do you guys have access to a time machine I haven't heard of? Was the time machine mentioned in the WDA and I missed it? If so please go forward in time then come back and post the complete DDO class roadmap for us, it would prove very helpful..

Look at all the D&D matterials out there. Show me where paladins get awesome offensive bonuses. It is a defensive martial class. Barbarians are clearly DPs oriented. Fighters have the tools to go DPS if they want to focus on that but can't match barbarians. Rangers can get TWF feats without investing in dex and thus make good DPS characters. Paladins get a but load of defensive and healing oriented abbilities and exactly one offensive power that only works on evil monsters and only a limited number of times per day.

What made you thing they would be DPS power houses? Why did you roll one if DPS is what you were looking for?



P.S. Incidentally, not nerfing a class when you promised to fix it is still a nerf.

You can call it whatever you like but nothing specific was promised. They made changes to paladadin. You don't like them. It is not a nerf by any normal definition of the word.

EinarMal
05-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Blessed Aim - Level 2 adds +2 morale? bonus to ranged attack rolls.
Righteous Fury - Level 3 Adds +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength, +5 Temporary hit points per caster level.
Silverbeard - Level 2 adds +2 sacred bonus to paladin's armor class.
Righteous Aura - Level 4 - I believe adds a +2 sacred bonus to saves and AC to all members of the party.

I don't have Spell Compendium in front of me but that is the gist of what they do. I think they did a good job with the Paladin Enhancement changes, but they short changed us on adding new spells. I'm sorry but Angelskin is not that great of a spell. The beef boils down to paladins losing +2 hit/+2 damage from the "Divine Favor nerf" and losing +1 AC/+1 Saves from the Paladin Aura. They're giving back the +1 AC, adding Righteous Fury gives back the +2 hit/+2 damage lost from the "Divine Favor nerf". Adding the additional +1 Saves to the save Aura at a higher level would be fine by me.

To me these look like very reasonable spells to add to DDO. Fury would have to balanced by a short duration I think, and maybe the hit points adjusted since Paladins in DDO are considered to have more caster levels I think.

Some people seem to be asking for much more than this. I just don't think it is reasonable to expect a Paladin to out DPS a Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger. Those classes have more DPS benefits as a trade off for some things that Paladins get like aura's and better saves.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Well for starters random haste clickies are 30 second duration and not as common as say DP clickies,Greater Heroism off a gird last 11 minutes. You know why casters don't complain them about being useless spells? Because they have OTHER spells to cast and more often; they're happy when users self-GH.

Haste pots are very common actualy. Many use them. I have lots of them. My bards, wizard and sorc all still memorize it. My cleric always has Deathward Memmed. I've never seen anyone use a deathward clickie in my two years of playing, they always ask me to cast it on them. Its a good spell, if you don't want to use it that isn't the fault of the devs. It's like a ranger that complians his bow feats are useless because he doesn't use ranged combat... so what?


The spell compendium adds quite a few GOOD pally only spells at all spell levels, not just watered down cleric spells; it rectified some of the problems with srd dnd.

Thats fine.


In fact even the SRD has a couple of good pally only spells wich would have made a huge difference since day 1; Turbine chose to give pallies almost 100% cleric hand-me-downs, that doesn't make it right however..

That is the original class design. Pallys get cleric spells, rangers get druid spells and bards get a mix of wizard and cleric. Improvement is not a bad thing but that is the desing. To expect something else is rather presumptous.


There IS A need for DPS if the devs said they screwed up with crit rage 2 and made up a spell that gives ranger +2 str and +3 damage per swing to compensate, but give nothing to paladins or fighters.

I don't recall them saying that but I may have missed a post reguarding it. I certainly don't think the ranger spell was a response to critical rage 2. Rangers were a much maligned class prior to mod 6 and now they are fairly popular. DPS is pretty much all they can bring to the table in DDO so they needed a boost in that direction. Their other two prestige classes were pretty much junk, but tempest is fairly amazing. neither tempest nor rams might actualy does what many of you are complaining about, make a pure ranger attractive. Actualy they must make the class more attractive to multi classers.


That's +1 AB and +4 damage to a Ranger, the rough equivalent of 3 core fighter class feats: weap focus, weap spec, gr weap spec; in fact it's better than those 3 feats as it applies to everything.

Its quite a good spell, and lasts a long time. But ranger is an offensive oriented class and paladin is not.


Yes multiclass, please go back in time and email me a DDO class map from 1 to 20.

As a long time D&D vet I know what paladins are like. They are well rounded defensive characters. Dificult to kil but not especialy impressive at killing monsters compared to the DPS classes. I didn't need an exact roadmap to know that, only the players handbook.


Wether or not you think Spell Compendium spells are broken is kinda moot at this point. The cat lept outta the bag a while back and other classes got good and useful SC spells..

I don't take issue with you asking for spells from there. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying it isn't the core rules for the game but a bunch of stuff collected from many years of freelance writers so its not a thing that was crafted with balance or the intent of the original game designers.


Tell me though would you have approved a fabricated Ram's Might as DDO has?

Sure, I'd also be happy to add those spells you asked for.


The Ram's Might (which really only shares the name from it's SC counterpart) closed the gap that was mistakenly widened, but put fighters and paladins further back at the same time.

Rangers do a few extra points of damage now... so what? Most palladins don't run power attack or use a DPS weapon style anyhow. The devs are trying to give you some DPS they just bungled it a bit by not thinking the mechanics through carefully. Help them sort it out. But be patient software is not a process of waving your hands and making things magicaly happen. And a company can't listen to every voice silmutaneously because many of them differ in opinion.


No there is not a well defined class map, spells and enhancements and PrC alone add a HUGE unknown factor to the mix and things are always in a state of flux.

True, but the basic class archatypes are quite consistant. You can claim ignorance but many others managed to figure it out without a lot of difficulty.


Please don't try to straw-man me with the "it's alll about DPS and BBN envy" argument either, it does neither of us any good.
Once more oversimplifying the real situation doesn't help anything either.

<shrug> Thats what we see. Folks whining that thier heavily defensive oriented class doesn't do as good of DPS or get as many DPS enhancemetns as DPS oriented classes do.

To make that argument you really have to first establish where in the DPS spectrum you think paladins should fall, keeping in mind they have the best defensive abbilities in the game currently.


No mod7 was said to be THE pally love mod.

That is your imagination I beleive. 99% of the DDO populace is lookign forward to monks, not paladins. It is the Monk Mod with a dash of paladin and rogue love on the side. You don't like the love... thats fine but its there none the less.


Again why are you impying "it's all about DPS/BBN envy"? It's clearly not so leave that straw-man in the closet where he belongs.

Hmmm... might have something to do wtih all the talk of what rangers got or what barbarians got or how your DPS compares to barbarians, or rangers, or fighters. Or all the talk about the smite evil additions and almost none about the defensive and healing ones which were pretty much just swept under the carpet as bieng useless while a spell that adds a few points of damage on each swing (rams might) is one of the cornerstones of your argument. Something like that. I'll not mention DPS if you don't.


Is a little more DPS and burst DPS needed to fix past mistakes and class imbalances? Yes. Clearly even the devs agree with the players on this as 3 "new things" are Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites and a long overdue player suggested tweak to Holy Sword.
As such, they warrant examination and comparison to spells, abilities and boost given to other classes, especially to things like Ram's Might..

Ok, but it still boils down to you wanting more DPS right?


The problem is Divine Sacrifice it not only not a spell a for "easy fights" as suggested, it's implementation is very poor at best; it suffers from all the "special attack" issues and the ratio of damage dealt/taken is completely wrong by DDO standards. Well meaning ? Yes, but a failed implementation wich can easily be tweaked by reducing the self damage to 1-3, getting rid of the silly +1 crit and adding more base D6s or simply replacing it with the better and more fitting Righteous Fury spell...

Sounds like a good argument.


Exalted Smite on the other hand is an insignifcant boost to an already terribly weak ability and pumping tons of AP into it can't match a level 1 ftr/rog boost. Well meaning ? Sure, but it's again a failed implementation which can either be tweaked properly or simply replaced by the bettr for many reasons Divine Might.

Another good argument.


I haven't heard ANYONE suggest that the pally should all of a sudden be DPS king, but if the focus should be more on defense then make it so, 1 little BoG4 hardly cuts it.

Actualy I've seen lots of folks suggest they should be on par wtih fighters, rangers or barbarians in terms of DPS. The hard thing about boards is you are arguing with lots of people at once and they have varying positions. You tend to end up generalizing or getting individuals confused. Just comes with the territory.


Incidentally you don't think DDO rangers have just a "bit" more DPS than a DDO pally do you?

Rangers have better DPS than a paladin by a good margin. Paladins have much better healing than a ranger and generaly better saving throws, hit points, and armor class (although rangers can get very good AC by wearing a shield, but then thier DPS usualy drops down to near paladin levels). But rangers is more a DPS class than paladin as they get DPS oriented feats as bonus feats. Paladins don't. Divine power is slightly inferior to rams might in damge but superior in accurace. All in all rams might is the better spell though. (of course you can build a character that does both as I recently did :) )

Rangers should have a DPS edge but it should mostly be limited to their extra feats and favored enemy since they get many skill advantages which should be balanced somewhat agaisnt a paladins defense advantages. Both classes lost their animal companions if favor of other things.

Gunga
05-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Haste pots are very common actualy. Many use them. I have lots of them. My bards, wizard and sorc all still memorize it. My cleric always has Deathward Memmed. I've never seen anyone use a deathward clickie in my two years of playing, they always ask me to cast it on them. Its a good spell, if you don't want to use it that isn't the fault of the devs. It's like a ranger that complians his bow feats are useless because he doesn't use ranged combat... so what?



Thats fine.



That is the original class design. Pallys get cleric spells, rangers get druid spells and bards get a mix of wizard and cleric. Improvement is not a bad thing but that is the desing. To expect something else is rather presumptous.



I don't recall them saying that but I may have missed a post reguarding it. I certainly don't think the ranger spell was a response to critical rage 2. Rangers were a much maligned class prior to mod 6 and now they are fairly popular. DPS is pretty much all they can bring to the table in DDO so they needed a boost in that direction. Their other two prestige classes were pretty much junk, but tempest is fairly amazing. neither tempest nor rams might actualy does what many of you are complaining about, make a pure ranger attractive. Actualy they must make the class more attractive to multi classers.



Its quite a good spell, and lasts a long time. But ranger is an offensive oriented class and paladin is not.



As a long time D&D vet I know what paladins are like. They are well rounded defensive characters. Dificult to kil but not especialy impressive at killing monsters compared to the DPS classes. I didn't need an exact roadmap to know that, only the players handbook.



I don't take issue with you asking for spells from there. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying it isn't the core rules for the game but a bunch of stuff collected from many years of freelance writers so its not a thing that was crafted with balance or the intent of the original game designers.



Sure, I'd also be happy to add those spells you asked for.



Rangers do a few extra points of damage now... so what? Most palladins don't run power attack or use a DPS weapon style anyhow. The devs are trying to give you some DPS they just bungled it a bit by not thinking the mechanics through carefully. Help them sort it out. But be patient software is not a process of waving your hands and making things magicaly happen. And a company can't listen to every voice silmutaneously because many of them differ in opinion.



True, but the basic class archatypes are quite consistant. You can claim ignorance but many others managed to figure it out without a lot of difficulty.



<shrug> Thats what we see. Folks whining that thier heavily defensive oriented class doesn't do as good of DPS or get as many DPS enhancemetns as DPS oriented classes do.

To make that argument you really have to first establish where in the DPS spectrum you think paladins should fall, keeping in mind they have the best defensive abbilities in the game currently.



That is your imagination I beleive. 99% of the DDO populace is lookign forward to monks, not paladins. It is the Monk Mod with a dash of paladin and rogue love on the side. You don't like the love... thats fine but its there none the less.



Hmmm... might have something to do wtih all the talk of what rangers got or what barbarians got or how your DPS compares to barbarians, or rangers, or fighters. Or all the talk about the smite evil additions and almost none about the defensive and healing ones which were pretty much just swept under the carpet as bieng useless while a spell that adds a few points of damage on each swing (rams might) is one of the cornerstones of your argument. Something like that. I'll not mention DPS if you don't.



Ok, but it still boils down to you wanting more DPS right?



Sounds like a good argument.



Another good argument.



Actualy I've seen lots of folks suggest they should be on par wtih fighters, rangers or barbarians in terms of DPS. The hard thing about boards is you are arguing with lots of people at once and they have varying positions. You tend to end up generalizing or getting individuals confused. Just comes with the territory.



Rangers have better DPS than a paladin by a good margin. Paladins have much better healing than a ranger and generaly better saving throws, hit points, and armor class (although rangers can get very good AC by wearing a shield, but then thier DPS usualy drops down to near paladin levels). But rangers is more a DPS class than paladin as they get DPS oriented feats as bonus feats. Paladins don't. Divine power is slightly inferior to rams might in damge but superior in accurace. All in all rams might is the better spell though. (of course you can build a character that does both as I recently did :) )

Rangers should have a DPS edge but it should mostly be limited to their extra feats and favored enemy since they get many skill advantages which should be balanced somewhat agaisnt a paladins defense advantages. Both classes lost their animal companions if favor of other things.

Impressive disection. Even more impressive is how we keep our jobs. I like your position on the pali love subject. I do think there is room for gpk's spell requests and I'm forced to wonder why the devs haven't addressed them. At the same time, I'd rather the pali class stay defensively oriented, being a long time PnP player. To make the pali an offense fighter would be to make the Rook move diagonally. Changes the game too far from the origin.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 01:20 PM
I love sigtrent.

Yaga_Nub
05-09-2008, 02:29 PM
I would assume that Turbine wants to keep it's revenue so they probably are going to have to cater to their players.

Not to the degree that you are inferring that they must. IF, and that's a HUGE if, 90% of the player base had multiple 16th level paladins in their accounts or the devs database showed paladins were created at a 10 to 1 ratio to other classes and then deleted then they might say to themselves - Hey we're missing a money making opportunity here and we need to do something to capture that pent up demand for paladins.

I highly doubt that is the case. This game is moving along nicely and we're seeing more and more "Hey I'm new here and I just wanted to say hello" posts in the server forums so I don't think that Turbine is worried about losing revenue to the HORDE of paladins that are cancelling their accounts as well speak.

Josh
05-09-2008, 03:19 PM
Not to the degree that you are inferring that they must. IF, and that's a HUGE if, 90% of the player base had multiple 16th level paladins in their accounts or the devs database showed paladins were created at a 10 to 1 ratio to other classes and then deleted then they might say to themselves - Hey we're missing a money making opportunity here and we need to do something to capture that pent up demand for paladins.

I highly doubt that is the case. This game is moving along nicely and we're seeing more and more "Hey I'm new here and I just wanted to say hello" posts in the server forums so I don't think that Turbine is worried about losing revenue to the HORDE of paladins that are cancelling their accounts as well speak.

Unless you have any actual numbers, this is purely speculation. Any estimates made by anyone are just edumacated guessames.

Alcides
05-09-2008, 03:33 PM
Not to the degree that you are inferring that they must. IF, and that's a HUGE if, 90% of the player base had multiple 16th level paladins in their accounts or the devs database showed paladins were created at a 10 to 1 ratio to other classes and then deleted then they might say to themselves - Hey we're missing a money making opportunity here and we need to do something to capture that pent up demand for paladins.

I highly doubt that is the case. This game is moving along nicely and we're seeing more and more "Hey I'm new here and I just wanted to say hello" posts in the server forums so I don't think that Turbine is worried about losing revenue to the HORDE of paladins that are cancelling their accounts as well speak.

You're taking what I said earlier out of context. I was speaking generally about keeping all players of DDO happy. If the playerbase of DDO is unhappy then Turbine will have lost revenues; from players leaving the game, or from new players being deterred from bad word of mouth advertising.

As far as making Paladins happy, the need for paladins should go beyond the +4 Saves / +4 AC Aura.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 04:05 PM
You're taking what I said earlier out of context. I was speaking generally about keeping all players of DDO happy. If the playerbase of DDO is unhappy then Turbine will have lost revenues; from players leaving the game, or from new players being deterred from bad word of mouth advertising.

As far as making Paladins happy, the need for paladins should go beyond the +4 Saves / +4 AC Aura.

Yes, but you can keep players happy, without catering to their every whim. If you start catering to them too much, then the players get too powerful, and realize, that they did not necessarily want all the extra power, because the game becomes less challenging and less fun.

It's the developers job to make sure they are making changes that are in balance with the game, and when improving classes not to trivialize content. They need to keep things fun when making improvements. They do need to listen to the customers, but need to differentiate suggestions from what would actually be good for the game, and what would make some people happy, but would be bad for the game.

All in all I have to say that while we, as customers, ask for a lot, what we ask for is not necessarily what we truly want (i.e. keeping the game fun).

Mhykke
05-09-2008, 04:39 PM
You know, when people say "I see people asking for paladins to equal barb DPS," I'm wondering if those people can post some quotes.

I know I have followed the paladin topic pretty regularly, and I don't remember one instance of someone asking for paladins to equal barb DPS.

If you're going to make this accusation, that it's what some critics want, please back it up w/ a reference to a post, I know I'd like to see it.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 05:34 PM
If you're going to make this accusation, that it's what some critics want, please back it up w/ a reference to a post, I know I'd like to see it.

Here are examples (took me about 20 seconds to find them in this thread alone)...
"Paladins have nothing that even compares to fighter melee haste, and don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage."
"Give the Paladin the extra crit range enhancements identical to the Barbs, that would remove a lot of the complaints."

There are lots more comparing paladin DPS to other classes and saying --> look what they get, why don't we get something comparable?

Answer: Because the are DPS oreinted classes and paladins are not.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 05:48 PM
The truly funny thing about people who tend to have opposing views (to those who think mod7 pally love is a sham) is that there are certain "taboo" topics none of them want to touch..

I love unanswered questions but I still want to hear from the Paladins need more DPS crowd why the heck they made a pure paladin if they want a DPS character.


-None of them argue that there exists a "synergy" between bodyfeeder and virtue.

You will have to explain this and its relavence and the mechanic involved. I hardly know anyone who uses bodyfeeder. I have a couple of bodyfeeder scemitars I've played around with but I don't have any characters tanky enough to make much use of it as a defensive strategy. I would think it actualy pairs best with a high DR. A keen bodyfeeder shield might actualy be handy for a blocking tank.


None of them argue that Divine Sacrifice is for "easy fights" , none argue that the damage ratios are OK for DDO (None have said they like Vicious either).

Divine Sacrifice is hard to really judge as its unclear to me if it is a seperate attack or a kind of buff on an existing attack or what. How often can it be used? Lots of questions. Is the damage ratio good. Not especialy, although if the crit bonuses stack in the line or if they stack wtih those from exaulted smite, you could be talking some hefty crit damage from it and that might be worth while on a boss or the like, especialy if someoen is spamming an area heal anyway...


None argue that a 1 little action point level 1 ftr/rog haste boost beats 16-20 points of Exalted+Extra Smite in actual "burst" damage.

It's a pretty good point. But they are actualy the same cost in many ways and accuracy and level and charisma and so on. I'd have to see exactly what you were comparing and how. Numbers can be tricky. And personaly smite just isn't something I have a lot of personal use of. I have one paladin on live and he's low level. I've run some paladins in beta and on risia but its not the same as playing it all the time. My paladin on live is only level 2 :P He uses smite on low level reds and it helps a little but its nothing too exciting. I also don't use haste boost much for that matter.

lobode
05-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Bringing up Barb crit rage and links to numbers showing barbs and fighters coming out a couple of points ahead palis, IS talking about DPS. I read through all 10 pages of this caca and I can see where more spells and making smites do more damage would help but honestly yall are making this out to be more than it is. This mod is the Monk mod. I never saw a post on the home page of DDO.com saying YAY ITS PALI LOVE MOD ALL PALIS REJOICE. But I did see that way of the monk is coming. I'm sorry you got let down but thats your own assumptions that palis would become something they aren't, not the devs. Palis still have the best defenses in the game.

Turial
05-09-2008, 06:02 PM
The truly funny thing about people who tend to have opposing views (to those who think mod7 pally love is a sham) is that there are certain "taboo" topics none of them want to touch.

-None of them argue that there exists a "synergy" between bodyfeeder and virtue.

-None of them argue that Divine Sacrifice is for "easy fights" , none argue that the damage ratios are OK for DDO (None have said they like Vicious either).

-None argue that a 1 little action point level 1 ftr/rog haste boost beats 16-20 points of Exalted+Extra Smite in actual "burst" damage.

Why? Is it simply because it relates to what a dev said and thinks?

Guess you wouldn't want to publicy agree with an erroneous statement a dev made nor would you want to publicly disagree with it.

1) People are on some magic dust if they think there is synergy between paladin divine sacrifice and body feeder. Synergy kinda implies that one thing makes the other better or makes it happen more often. Body feeder simply helps off set the vicious nature of sacrifice. If body feeder healed you rather then giving temp hp it would have synergy for things like barb crit and exalted smite. Virtue and bodyfeeder though just dont mesh like that.

2) Divine sacrifice is pretty much a worse form of vicious because it harms you regardless of if you hit. In easy fights you wouldnt need the questionable added DPS. If it delt 3 or 4 times the damage and only hurt you when it connected then it would be interesting to see.

3) More attacks per period of time will typically out do a single "burst" strike. Look at tempest for rangers (and what I hope they will give to fighters) and how it helped boost their DPS. Granted the DDO rams might helped alot with that too.

artvan_delet
05-09-2008, 06:07 PM
[QUOTE=sigtrent;1703299]I love unanswered questions but I still want to hear from the Paladins need more DPS crowd why the heck they made a pure paladin if they want a DPS character.


Sig, I'm wondering why anyone would make a pure paladin at all.

Yaga_Nub
05-09-2008, 06:24 PM
Sig, I'm wondering why anyone would make a pure paladin at all.

Because it's the path of sacrifice. :)

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 06:33 PM
honestly yall are making this out to be more than it is. This mod is the Monk mod. I never saw a post on the home page of DDO.com saying YAY ITS PALI LOVE MOD ALL PALIS REJOICE. But I did see that way of the monk is coming. I'm sorry you got let down but thats your own assumptions that palis would become something they aren't, not the devs. Palis still have the best defenses in the game.
Fine, here's a quote for you (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1617112&postcount=31). Note that the title of this thread is a big exaggeration by calling it a lie. It is untrue, but because of an error, not dishonesty.


Paladins are the last ones standing when things "go all pear-shaped". Soon they'll be able to do something to help the party recover, too.

You'll be seeing some more things that should make them happy in the next few WDA's.

Also, you could look back to before the monk announcements (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1476988&postcount=566):


The Save / AC auras are a lot better than the fear / concentration auras at the moment.

The M6 Paladin changes were low-risk changes. You'll receive more intense changes in M7, along with the Rogues.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 06:39 PM
You will have to explain this and its relavence and the mechanic involved. I hardly know anyone who uses bodyfeeder. I have a couple of bodyfeeder scemitars I've played around with
Nobody "has" to explain it to you. If you were paying attention you'd already know. Since you're not a developer, and you don't pay attention to the dev tracker, it's not worth spending time trying to convince you of anything.

Even if you are convinced, who cares?

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 06:48 PM
Nobody "has" to explain it to you. If you were paying attention you'd already know. Since you're not a developer, and you don't pay attention to the dev tracker, it's not worth spending time trying to convince you of anything.

Even if you are convinced, who cares?

Why so hostile lately? :)

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 06:50 PM
Fine, here's a quote for you (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1617112&postcount=31). Note that the title of this thread is a big exaggeration by calling it a lie. It is untrue, but because of an error, not dishonesty.

And for you this is a grand announcement of mod 7 being the savior of paladins everywhere? He specificaly notes the paladins defensive and healing characteristics in that quote and says nothing about damage dealing. Perhaps that could be a clue of some kind as to the roll that devs see paladins playing?

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Nobody "has" to explain it to you. If you were paying attention you'd already know. Since you're not a developer, and you don't pay attention to the dev tracker, it's not worth spending time trying to convince you of anything.

??? Well if you want to discuss the subject it helps if you actualy bother to explain it. I watch the dev tracker fairly regularly. You can spend your time how you like but if you hope to be convincing you will need to occasionaly explain yourself and offer support for your arguments.


Even if you are convinced, who cares?

I do. And it is possible that my opinions have some measure of influece. But you posed the "forbidden topics". Apparently you are the one who is not interested in discussing them.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 07:09 PM
For those of you who haven't been following the paladin development notes, here is a refresher of one of the most troublesome aspects.

Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1659952&postcount=36) is a developer post on the subject of Divine Sacrifice:

I'll keep it in mind as a future enhancement. Right now, it's pretty firmly locked as melee-only.

Quote:
Guess this is their not to bad a solution without having to recode almost everything :-)
I wanted to maintain the feel of the Paladin coming in during difficult situations to save the day rather than just spamming their attack every time it's up. I wasn't satisfied with the thought of Smite Evil being on a longer cooldown, but thought that limiting the number you can do at once but letting you save them up for hard encounters worked out pretty well when combined with the new enhancements... With Divine Sacrifice filling the hole during the easier fights. (Price check on Bodyfeeding weapons!)

Being able to use a smite or two in some battles or saving them for rougher encounters has a nice gameplay element to it, and the "missed because it ran off" problem becomes less painful.

Quote:
Very nice, is there plans of making Smite Evil fit in better your attack chain? Still annoying to stop to swing.
That delay annoys me to no end too, I'm looking into why it's misbehaving but can't promise anything with that one at this time. It's on my bug list.

See that? "(Price check on Bodyfeeding weapons!)" It's saying that you can use the temporary hitpoints granted by a crit from a bodyfeeder weapon to cover the self-damage from Divine Sacrifice.

Obviously, that is a horrible idea. Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice means less damage, less hp, and less AP than Holy + normal attacking. What's worrisome is that if a developer said that, it demonstrates a great failure in judging the effectiveness of game mechanics. (Alternatively, it might have been a joke. But that is troubling for other reasons)

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 07:26 PM
Obviously, that is a horrible idea. Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice means less damage, less hp, and less AP than Holy + normal attacking. What's worrisome is that if a developer said that, it demonstrates a great failure in judging the effectiveness of game mechanics. (Alternatively, it might have been a joke. But that is troubling for other reasons)

The horrible idea comment is subjective. In your opinion, which I am sure a lot will share, it is not worth it. However, there may be some players out there that will try it out. Not every player is seeking to maximize their DPS to optimal efficiency. I will agree with you though, that Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice is not a combo that I would seek to use.

I do not think it demonstrates a great failure in judging effectiveness of game mechanics. Possibly overestimating them. Not everyone is going to play the way you want to play Angelus. Thus, there exists variety, and someone out there (not sure who) may view something like this as an interesting tactic they would like to try/employ.

Strykersz
05-09-2008, 07:58 PM
The horrible idea comment is subjective. In your opinion, which I am sure a lot will share, it is not worth it. However, there may be some players out there that will try it out. Not every player is seeking to maximize their DPS to optimal efficiency. I will agree with you though, that Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice is not a combo that I would seek to use.

I do not think it demonstrates a great failure in judging effectiveness of game mechanics. Possibly overestimating them. Not everyone is going to play the way you want to play Angelus. Thus, there exists variety, and someone out there (not sure who) may view something like this as an interesting tactic they would like to try/employ.

It isn't a question of differing play styles, because there is no play style that benefits from bodyfeeder/DS(except for the intentionally reducing my dps method of playing. hot tip for that guy; not swinging reduces your dps even more!).

edit: And yes, horrible failure in judging effectiveness. Either balancing DS isn't Eladrin's job(in which case, whatever) or he absolutely should be expected to know that bodyfeeder/DS is terrible.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 08:03 PM
It isn't a question of differing play styles, because there is no play style that benefits from bodyfeeder/DS(except for the intentionally reducing my dps method of playing. hot tip for that guy; not swinging reduces your dps even more!).
Oh, you're being short-sighted. Divine Sacrifice has more functionality than adding damage- it's also useful to kill yourself.

Remember the /death nerf where it immediately releases you to the tavern, instead of allowing your ghost to run around the quest? If an unharmed paladin wants to die without releasing, he can use Divine Sacrifice to handle it. Then his teammates can carry his soulstone to the end chest and rez it there, which is like free loot without the hassle of walking through the dungeon.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 08:06 PM
You guys do realize that there are people out there now that use Bodyfeeder weapons right?

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 08:07 PM
edit: And yes, horrible failure in judging effectiveness. Either balancing DS isn't Eladrin's job(in which case, whatever) or he absolutely should be expected to know that bodyfeeder/DS is terrible.
I want to point out that there is a lot of flak aimed at many of Eladrin's posts, but it's not really his fault. He happens to post a lot more than the other devs, which makes him a target of complaints. But really the customers do not know who is behind the various decisions. And if Turbine is at all like a typical game designer, every developer is able to monitor and criticize the progress of the others. So if there's an oversight, any one of them probably had a chance to catch it.

I suspect that a lot of mistakes in DDO's design were caused by nobody- as in, no developer was assigned to balance it at all. (Making it a failure of management)

Strykersz
05-09-2008, 08:11 PM
You guys do realize that there are people out there now that use Bodyfeeder weapons right?

Yes, and they use it to get the extra hp. Using it to get the extra hp(to increase your survivability at the cost of not being able to get a useful prefix) is a play style that runs counter to the use of that hp for paying the DS hp cost.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 08:11 PM
You guys do realize that there are people out there now that use Bodyfeeder weapons right?
Certainly there are a few. That is irrelevant to this topic.

If they want to use Bodyfeeder to increase their survivability by supplying temporary hitpoints as they ding away on a monster, fine. That'll provide you a small benefit in some situations.

But if you combine Bodyfeeder with Divine Sacrifice, then you are canceling the bonus hitpoints with self-damage, and canceling the bonus damage with a less-damaging weapon. It's a lose-lose negative-sum game.

bigal4458
05-09-2008, 08:34 PM
The fact of matter is that the Paladin class as a whole is in Jeapordy of becoming obsolete. I'll follow this up by conceding two things...

1) The Paladin is a more "definsive" class by design
and
2) Paladin's shouldn't out DPS Barbs/Fighters/ and for the most part...Rangers

However....

Let's look at the roles the Paladin can and should play, and more importantly, how much more effectively that role can be played by "splashing" Pally levels...meaning the "Pure Paladin" may become a thing of the past.

Paladins are...for the most part...a defensive class. However, a Pure Paladin who focuses on defense, become obsenely obsolete in every way when it comes to dealing damage. Moreover, to become truly effective "defensivley", you have to take either fighter or rogue levels, or even ranger levels. We can also get into the discussion of what an effective "defensive tank" should do (See Intimidate [a non-Pally skill]), but that's another discussion.

There are Rangers out there who are supposedly "less defensive", running around in robes, with evasion, and dual-wielding weapons with a higher AC than my sword and board Pally. This basically mean, in order to have an archetypal Paladin, it would require some very nice gear to say the least.....let's not also forget the ability point drain on Pally's, and to have a defensive tank, CE is generally desired, requiring a 13 int, again weakening other areas of the Pally's forte (Turning [don't laugh], Lay Hands, smite evil), by taking away points from Charisma or Str.

It's also quite obvious that there are minimal reasons for taking a Paladin past lvl 11. But let's look at what a Pally is good at.

Healing:
Yes, a Paladin has Lay Hands...good for burst healing in tough situations...A very good and useful ability.
Cure spells - (but so do bards, rangers, and clerics)

Fighting Evil/Undead:
Paladins do get a spell that gives DR/Evil, and smites that deal strong damage against evil foes. (Still not comparable to a 'favored enemy')
Turn Undead - Mildly useful at best, even when fully enhanced.

Survivability:
This is really where it's at, as generally the only thing my Paladin is better at than anyone else...is not dying as fast or as much. This is because of two thing
1 - We don't hit very hard so don't grab aggro too often
2 - LoH and healing ability.

It's really hard to justify the role a Paladin plays in a party that some other class (or Pally hybrid) can't play better. And the gap in DPS is so wide (not saying I want to be on par w/ DPS classes), that without specialty weapons, the melee effectiveness of a Paladin is almost non-existant (with exceptions, and remember, pure class here).

The point is Paladins really don't excell at anything...and the things they should excell at, or that are useful or contribute to groups, are very weak. We should be able to "own" undead and have greater options for upping our AC through spells and enhancments, if that's the direction the Dev's want to take the class. But as things are now, the class is quickly becoming a "splash" class and being relegated to the "fat kid being picked last for dodgeball" role.

bobbryan2
05-09-2008, 08:35 PM
The horrible idea comment is subjective. In your opinion, which I am sure a lot will share, it is not worth it. However, there may be some players out there that will try it out. Not every player is seeking to maximize their DPS to optimal efficiency. I will agree with you though, that Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice is not a combo that I would seek to use.

I do not think it demonstrates a great failure in judging effectiveness of game mechanics. Possibly overestimating them. Not everyone is going to play the way you want to play Angelus. Thus, there exists variety, and someone out there (not sure who) may view something like this as an interesting tactic they would like to try/employ.

Do you not understand that it's a bad tactic? It's not intersting... it's bad. It kills your survivability, damage done per swing, swing per second, AND it's more buttons to push.

Are there people that like doing more work for worse tactics? I mean there might be uninformed people that think it's an interesting tactic... but I don't think they should make new spells that are only for the ignorant to use.

Shadowblizmasta
05-09-2008, 08:51 PM
The problem I see with most of you paladins is that you want to be something you aren't. You want to be extreme damage dealers. Paladins aren't and never were that. They were a support and defense class. Paladins have some of the best all around saving throws in the game, they have auras that give persistant buffs. All of this and they can wear plate and take hits just like a fighter can.

If you want a melee class that can slaughter everything in its path while being able to take a hit, roll a barbarian.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 08:53 PM
Do you not understand that it's a bad tactic? It's not intersting... it's bad. It kills your survivability, damage done per swing, swing per second, AND it's more buttons to push.

Are there people that like doing more work for worse tactics? I mean there might be uninformed people that think it's an interesting tactic... but I don't think they should make new spells that are only for the ignorant to use.

In 3 seconds a body feeder weapon can crit multiple times, especially if you're dual wielding a pair. You can lose 10 hp to Divine Sacrifice and still keep a buffer of HP up.

You can have autoattack on, but still swing manually. You pause for a split second to hit your button for divine sacrifice, then resume attacking. Damage done per swing is not reduced (in comparison with wielding a bodyfeeder weapon previously), swing per second is marginally reduced (the split second it takes to hit the button, where you go from manual attack speed, to auto attack speed, back to manual attack speed). I agree the more buttons to push thing could quickly become annoying.

I agreed that this is not something I will seek to use... however, I am not willing to say that the idea that was thrown out there is completely worthless. Very very situational, and for a overwhelming majority of the population, bodyfeeder + divine sacrifice is a waste.

However, separated I do not necessarily think they are a waste, and may level up a Paladin again to try them out. We'll see, I have several characters I would like to try when mod 7 comes out (no I'm not going to make a character that is mainly a monk).

gpk
05-09-2008, 08:56 PM
Ok just a quick blurb since I don't have much time right now.

To sigtrent and attempting to twist what people post as it relates to DPS, since you've missed in the the dozens of previous posts all over the forums here it is. Maybe spend less time leveling a differemt build every week and consitently play more at higher levels.

-BBN Crit Rage 2 mistakenly widened the DPS gap by a very large margin
-Dev said no more nerfs (after nerfing paladins repeatedly), but they will give other classes good enhancements to compensate, though nowhere near as overpowered as Crit Rage2
-Mod6 Ranger Love comes around, rangers get at least the very good Tempest and the most excellent but totally made up Ram's Might
-Mod7 changes are announced and even though a lot of pally stuff is DPS/Burst DPS related, the implementation is botched due to whatever reason. All of it combined doesn't compare to Ram's Might alones
-Fighters get nothing

So yes PART of the problem is DPS, due to some mistakes made overpowering more than just the BBN class. Rangers were boosted as promised, Pallies and Fighters were not; the imbalance got wider

It's quite simple isn't it?
Instead though the straw-man rears it's ugly head and an attempt to turn the situation into pallies wanting to become "DPS powerhouses", totally false and unfounded.
Really every time this particular straw-man is brought out it usually means the opposing party has run out of things to argue and is just trying to be antagonistic, so why continue to try to have a sane debate with these people?

gpk
05-09-2008, 09:03 PM
Here are examples (took me about 20 seconds to find them in this thread alone)...
"Paladins have nothing that even compares to fighter melee haste, and don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage."
"Give the Paladin the extra crit range enhancements identical to the Barbs, that would remove a lot of the complaints."

There are lots more comparing paladin DPS to other classes and saying --> look what they get, why don't we get something comparable?

Answer: Because the are DPS oreinted classes and paladins are not.

OK I shouldn't be repying to you any more since all you are doign now is straw-manning but here it goes.

Fighter Melee Haste is burst damage, Smite Evil is supposed to be burst damage and clearly the latter is not.
The "don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage" is referring to how messed up the situation became by those 6 little APs, a paladin is expected to invest 20 APs to not even be able to match 1 AP of a ftr/rog in the same "burst" damage?


"Give the Paladin the extra crit range enhancements identical to the Barbs, that would remove a lot of the complaints."

Clearly this one went over your heard, the poster is being sarcastic implying that the easiest way to fix the problem is to give others the same overpowered enhancements. Of course the ultimate irony is that Crit Rage 2 is a LOT better to a BBN than it would be to a pally.

Honestly have you given up so soon that you have to resort to this?

bigal4458
05-09-2008, 09:04 PM
The problem I see with most of you paladins is that you want to be something you aren't. You want to be extreme damage dealers. Paladins aren't and never were that. They were a support and defense class. Paladins have some of the best all around saving throws in the game, they have auras that give persistant buffs. All of this and they can wear plate and take hits just like a fighter can.

If you want a melee class that can slaughter everything in its path while being able to take a hit, roll a barbarian.

Did you actually read any posts in this or any other thread (see 2 posts above please)? I have to say i'm a bit dumb-founded by this conclusion you have drawn. I have no desire to be a barbaian....I want to be an effective, pure-blooded Paladin.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 09:11 PM
The problem I see with most of you paladins is that you want to be something you aren't. You want to be extreme damage dealers. Paladins aren't and never were that.
That is false.

It's not that paladin-supporters want to do damage necessarily. It's that they want some improvement to the class so that taking additional pally levels beyond 12 isn't a mistake. If the improvements were defensive, protective, healing, or utility, that would be fine, so long as the benefits were good enough to be worth it.

However, the developers decided that the improvements would basically come in the form of DPS. Here's a list of the mod7 paladin improvments. Notice that half of them are DPS boosts:
1. Reduced AP costs
2. Loh as Raise Dead
3. +1 more AC at level 15
4. Holy Sword gets Silver
5. Exalted Smite
6. Divine Sacrifice

So, because the developers decided that the way they would help Paladins is by giving them new DPS abilities, it is appropriate and necessary to judge how effective those DPS increases are. It is especially important to compare them to the DPS you could gain by taking 1-4 levels of fighter, rogue, or ranger, because those levels are the competitors to taking paladin 12 and up.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 09:14 PM
Ok just a quick blurb since I don't have much time right now.

To sigtrent and others twisting the what people post as it relates to DPS, since you've missed in the the dozens of previous posts all over the forums here it is.

-BBN Crit Rage 2 mistakenly widened the DPS gap by a very large margin
-Dev said no more nerfs (after nerfing paladins repeatedly), but they will give other classes good enhancements to compensate, though nowhere near as overpowered as Crit Rage2
-Mod6 Ranger Love comes around, rangers get at least the very good Tempest and the most excellent but totally made up Ram's Might
-Mod7 changes are announced and even though a lot of pally stuff is DPS/Burst DPS related, the implementation is botched due to whatever reason. All of it combined doesn't compare to Ram's Might alones
-Fighters get nothing

So yes PART of the problem is DPS, due to some mistakes made overpowering more than just the BBN class. Rangers were boosted as promised, Pallies and Fighters were not; the imbalance got wider

It's quite simple isn't it?
Instead though the straw-man rears it's ugly head and an attempt to turn the situation into pallies wanting to become "DPS powerhouses", totally false and unfounded.
Really every time this particular straw-man is brought out it usually means the opposing party has run out of things to argue and is just trying to be antagonistic, so why continue to try to have a sane debate with these people?

After nerfing Paladins repeatedly? I only remember four, but correct me if I'm wrong.

1. No evasion in Medium/Heavy Armor
2. Bringing Divine Favor in line with Pen and Paper (errata by WotC)
3. Smite Evil getting a cooldown timer
4. AC/Resistance Aura being initially reduced from 2 to 1.


Ok, number 1 makes sense to me. Number 2 I can see as well, was a change by WotC. Number 3, well, yeah, basically Paladins use to be able to do ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short time, but blowing all their smites. Was fun ;)

Number 4 I never understood. Frankly, I think they should have left it alone.


On your point about Barbarian Crit Rage II widening the gap by a very large margin, I'm going to examine that. I'm going to use some of the DDO damage calcs and see if I can show how big (relatively) a difference it makes. I think people may be blowing it out of proportion. Where Barbarian Crit Rage II makes a huge difference, is weapons with crit based effects. I.e. Banishers, Smiters, Puncturers, etc.

And I don't really see how the imbalance got wider, it just shifted truth be told. Barbarians are at the top DPS wise overall, Rangers got bumped up, but still aren't on par with Barbarians (unless we're talking about against Favored Enemies, which is huge), but you're right Fighters didn't get anything, and Paladins haven't gotten much.


I'm still waiting for more hopefully, I'm just asking that you guys discuss this, and don't think that your way is the only way to improve the Paladin class. I'm very hopeful at the idea of Paladin specialties coming out :)

gpk
05-09-2008, 09:15 PM
Look at all the D&D matterials out there. Show me where paladins get awesome offensive bonuses. It is a defensive martial class. Barbarians are clearly DPs oriented. Fighters have the tools to go DPS if they want to focus on that but can't match barbarians. Rangers can get TWF feats without investing in dex and thus make good DPS characters. Paladins get a but load of defensive and healing oriented abbilities and exactly one offensive power that only works on evil monsters and only a limited number of times per day.


Hmm pally offensive stuff?

-Divine Favor (duh)
-Smite Evil (**** in DDO but still)
-Bless Weapon (SRD)
-Holy Sword (DDO version moslty sucks, but finally got a real bump)
-Paladin Mount
-Divine Might

Then there are the spell compendium spells which I'm sure I don't need to go into again; do I ?



What made you thing they would be DPS power houses? Why did you roll one if DPS is what you were looking for?

Yes yes straw-man, we know you love the scarecrow.Read a post further up.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 09:25 PM
Hmm pally offensive stuff?

-Divine Favor (duh)
-Smite Evil (**** in DDO but still)
-Bless Weapon (SRD)
-Holy Sword (DDO version moslty sucks, but finally got a real bump)
-Paladin Mount
-Divine Might

Then there are the spell compendium spells which I'm sure I don't need to go into again; do I ?


Yes yes straw-man, we know you love the scarecrow.Read a post further up.

1. Divine Favor. Yep
2. Smite Evil. Agreed not so good in DDO.
3. Bless Weapon. Pretty nice in PNP.
4. Holy Sword. How is the PNP version better than the DDO version?
5. Paladin Mount. Pretty situational. GMs have to provide you with situations to use mounted combat. Then to really make good use of it, you'll need to have Spirited Charge (which is nice)
6. Divine Might. Non core material, but definitely one I like whenever I've played a Paladin. One I would like to see in game.


However, I still don't see them as a heavy DPS class. They are decent in PNP, but even with some of the SRD spells, I think other classes are generally better.

gpk
05-09-2008, 09:29 PM
After nerfing Paladins repeatedly? I only remember four, but correct me if I'm wrong.

1. No evasion in Medium/Heavy Armor
2. Bringing Divine Favor in line with Pen and Paper (errata by WotC)
3. Smite Evil getting a cooldown timer
4. AC/Resistance Aura being initially reduced from 2 to 1.

5. Metamagic changes inadvertently affected paladins with Extend.
6. Late Mod3 Enhancement redesign shifted a lot paladin stuff upwaards many levels.

The whole erratta by OWTC thing is really funny btw, it's like they beamed down just to fix this ONE thing and disappeared forever. I wonder how they would feel about some of the stuff that came later for other classes.



On your point about Barbarian Crit Rage II widening the gap by a very large margin, I'm going to examine that. I'm going to use some of the DDO damage calcs and see if I can show how big (relatively) a difference it makes. I think people may be blowing it out of proportion. Where Barbarian Crit Rage II makes a huge difference, is weapons with crit based effects. I.e. Banishers, Smiters, Puncturers, etc.

The math has been done in various other thread but by all means go take a look, don't forget SoS and Deathnip and various other weapon types; it's in the order of 15-20% in some cases and remember thats aon a BBNs very high base damage so the effect is amplified. By all means though check for yourself, though I'm curious as to why this seems news to you.



And I don't really see how the imbalance got wider, it just shifted truth be told. Barbarians are at the top DPS wise overall, Rangers got bumped up, but still aren't on par with Barbarians (unless we're talking about against Favored Enemies, which is huge), but you're right Fighters didn't get anything, and Paladins haven't gotten much.

It got wider in that Rangers got their-gap closing Ram's Might but fighters and apllies zilch.
Rangers should NEVER have gotten the made-up Ram's might (not even mine!) if you they weren't gonna close the imbalance gap for fighters and pallies, that is just bad for the game and everyone knows it. To try to sweep it under the rug with statements like "well rangers are an offensive class" is just weak, offensive vs Favored enemies yes, and they enjoy a natural progression that boosts Fav Nme dmg as well as cheap enhancements to boost the dmg, ac, saves, ab.

SableShadow
05-09-2008, 09:31 PM
Geonis, we've sparred on the boards in the past, but I'm totally behind you on this. Paladins need more love.

gpk
05-09-2008, 09:36 PM
1. Divine Favor. Yep
2. Smite Evil. Agreed not so good in DDO.
3. Bless Weapon. Pretty nice in PNP.
4. Holy Sword. How is the PNP version better than the DDO version?
5. Paladin Mount. Pretty situational. GMs have to provide you with situations to use mounted combat. Then to really make good use of it, you'll need to have Spirited Charge (which is nice)
6. Divine Might. Non core material, but definitely one I like whenever I've played a Paladin. One I would like to see in game.


However, I still don't see them as a heavy DPS class. They are decent in PNP, but even with some of the SRD spells, I think other classes are generally better.

Noone implied that they are a DPS heavy class, but nor are they relegated to being walking auras; there IS DPS aspectes even in PnP contrary to what others implied. BTW Divine Might in on D20srd for what it's worth.

The problem is obviously multi-faceted but some people are trying to simplify it and reduce it to almost nothing in a weak attempt to refute the arguments that they seem to oppose for the sake of oppostion alone.

If you can't look at the bigger picture, overpowerings, nerfs, nerf policy changes, missed marks ,changes in the game which changes the relative value of offense and defense etc etc then why try to straw-man our postion?

Wow I feel like Ive posted these arguments 100 times now, not always for diffrerent ppl, I don't know if I feel like getting into it for a 101st time right now.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 09:38 PM
The whole erratta by OWTC thing is really funny btw, it's like they beamed down just to fix this ONE thing and disappeared forever. I wonder how they would feel about some of the stuff that came later for other classes.

The math has been done in various other thread but by all means go take a look, don't forget SoS and Deathnip and various other weapon types; it's in the order of 15-20% in some cases and remember thats aon a BBNs very high base damage so the effect is amplified. By all means though check for yourself, though I'm curious as to why this seems news to you.

It got wider in that Rangers got their-gap closing Ram's Might but fighters and apllies zilch.
Rangers should NEVER have gotten the made-up Ram's might (not even mine!) if you they weren't gonna close the imbalance gap for fighters and pallies, that is just bad for the game and everyone knows it. To try to sweep it under the rug with statements like "well rangers are an offensive class" is just weak, offensive vs Favored enemies yes, and they enjoy a natural progression that boosts Fav Nme dmg as well as cheap enhancements to boost the dmg, ac, saves, ab.

About the Errata by WotC, I don't think they came to DDO to specifically fix it, they fixed it in PNP and the DDO Devs decided to adopt the change as well.

I'll check out the DPS later, as I stated.

I guess if I look at it your way, collectively the gap has widened, because there are now more high DPS classes that are doing proportionally more damage than the Paladin. I'd still say that's a bit of a stretch. You're really just looking at it from a certain point of view for the sake of your arguments. I'd say to take a look at all sides. (Yes Paladins are still low man on the totem pole)

I still just don't think Paladins are that bad off as you guys paint them to be. Some of the best players I've played with in the game have Paladins that do incredibly well. Perhaps, I'm just lucky to have played with the best Paladins on any servers?

Anyways, still want to bump up Paladins, don't get me wrong. But I'm playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate here to try and get you guys to consider all points of view in this matter.

Tallyn
05-09-2008, 09:46 PM
Noone implied that they are a DPS heavy class, but nor are they relegated to being walking auras; there IS DPS aspectes even in PnP contrary to what others implied. BTW Divine Might in on D20srd for what it's worth.

The problem is obviously multi-faceted but some people are trying to simplify it and reduce it to almost nothing in a weak attempt to refute the arguments that they seem to oppose for the sake of oppostion alone.

If you can't look at the bigger picture, overpowerings, nerfs, nerf policy changes, missed marks ,changes in the game which changes the relative value of offense and defense etc etc then why try to straw-man our postion?

Wow I feel like Ive posted these arguments 100 times now, not always for diffrerent ppl, I don't know if I feel like getting into it for a 101st time right now.

I'm not trying to 'straw-man' your position. You just mentioned Paladin offensive abilities and I would go so far as to say that (in pen and paper) Paladins really aren't that great.

I am looking at the bigger picture, and I have agreed that I wanted to bump Paladin's up in some way. I'm just saying that nearly all the arguments from the other side have been so one sided in nature, they do not take anything else into account. Look at the Paladin class as a whole, not just in comparison with the criteria you've stated.

You're right, I feel like I've been arguing this so long, that I've lost sight of what I was arguing for.

gpk
05-09-2008, 09:55 PM
I guess if I look at it your way, collectively the gap has widened, because there are now more high DPS classes that are doing proportionally more damage than the Paladin. I'd still say that's a bit of a stretch. You're really just looking at it from a certain point of view for the sake of your arguments. I'd say to take a look at all sides. (Yes Paladins are still low man on the totem pole)

It was admitted to be mistakanly widened, it was said the situation would be rectifed somewhat. How is it a stretch?
edit: Well I guess I should point out the relative values of offense and defence have also changed, so if offense becomes more valuable and offense is boosted for some, a more "defensive" class now loses not only to having the offensive class boosted, but his defense devalued.
So the balance gap is widened by an even greater amount now due to this value shift.



I still just don't think Paladins are that bad off as you guys paint them to be. Some of the best players I've played with in the game have Paladins that do incredibly well. Perhaps, I'm just lucky to have played with the best Paladins on any servers?

LOL wow seriously, deja-vu. I've also played with the best players on my server on all classes, my opions weren't formed in a day, I've observed the game over the last year how other classes changed (min and others), how paladins changed, how the game changed.
I consistently play at end-game content, I'm not one of those people who jsut enjoyes levelign up a new build every week and barely touches the high level end-game content.

Maybe your last line is an attempt at humor ? I could just as easily say maybe your best palandins weren't playing with other good players; see how easy that was?



Anyways, still want to bump up Paladins, don't get me wrong. But I'm playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate here to try and get you guys to consider all points of view in this matter.

You can play devil's advoctae all you want, that's fine , but you must understand this may be the first time you've jumped into the debate, others have had this discussion many times by now.

Inevitably the opposing camp breaks down and resorts to the very cheap straw-man "BBN DPS envy" argument, it's become a virtual white flag of sorts unknowingly being waved.

Eladrin
05-09-2008, 10:29 PM
Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.

I disagree with the thought that Paladins do not serve any valuable purpose.


You can have autoattack on, but still swing manually. You pause for a split second to hit your button for divine sacrifice, then resume attacking.
Divine Sacrifice won't interrupt your attack sequence, there's no real need to pause.


I will agree with you though, that Bodyfeeder + Divine Sacrifice is not a combo that I would seek to use.
It's extremely effective in the mid levels when you've first gained access to Divine Sacrifice. Monsters at that point aren't likely to bust through Virtue + Bodyfeeder on the AC of the average paladin between crits, so the hp cost isn't much of an issue - it'll often refresh before the timer on DS is done, and also works if you're acting as a secondary tank in a party. (A role that will work better come M7, when preventing monsters from reaching their target will generate aggression.)

It's not a combo that I'd recommend against the hard hitting monsters on elite at level 16, but not everyone's capped, and AC issues plaguing defensive melee classes don't become extreme until you're playing on higher difficulties near cap.


It isn't a question of differing play styles, because there is no play style that benefits from bodyfeeder/DS(except for the intentionally reducing my dps method of playing. hot tip for that guy; not swinging reduces your dps even more!).
Unless you don't have a Foo of Bar weapon, of course. Bodyfeeders are pretty cheap, and a Paladin can essentially turn one into "this weapon deals 5d6-9d6 damage and has +1 to its crit multiplier on the attack following a crit".


Divine Sacrifice has more functionality than adding damage- it's also useful to kill yourself.
You'll have to have a monster finish you off or unequip your Con item, we don't let hp-cost abilities actually kill you.


Dev said no more nerfs (after nerfing paladins repeatedly), but they will give other classes good enhancements to compensate, though nowhere near as overpowered as Crit Rage2
Since I keep seeing this... I said that we'd prefer to improve class balance by improving other classes rather than by changing existing class abilities if that's a viable option. ("We'll do what we can to add rather than take away.") We didn't say "no more nerfs".

Back to Paladins:

As for plans for the future... I expect to be implementing class specialties for the Paladin in the near future (currently winning but still subject to change: Knight of the Chalice, Defender of Sealtiel, and either the Purple Dragon Knight or an anti-undead one) as well as considering some of the spells and divine feats from various sources. There is likely to also be more poaching of the Marshal's abilities as alternatives to the Paladin's aura, and perhaps some sort of "Divine Challenge" ability to encourage opponents to pay attention to the holy warrior that doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill.

Oh, and Tharagrim's working on the Holy Avenger.

Strykersz
05-09-2008, 10:41 PM
Unless you don't have a Foo of Bar weapon, of course. Bodyfeeders are pretty cheap, and a Paladin can essentially turn one into "this weapon deals 5d6-9d6 damage and has +1 to its crit multiplier on the attack following a crit".


Wait, I'm supposed to assume our theoretical paladin doesn't have a +5 holy burst weapon?

SteeleTrueheart
05-09-2008, 10:43 PM
Paladins

<snip>

Oh, and Tharagrim's working on the Holy Avenger.

For your whole post. Thank you. This is what I and many others wanted. Feedback.

Thank you and I look forward to Mod 8.

Yaga_Nub
05-09-2008, 10:49 PM
For your whole post. Thank you. This is what I and many others wanted. Feedback.

Thank you and I look forward to Mod 8.

He didn't say Mod 8 but at least it's a start.

Angelus_dead
05-09-2008, 11:17 PM
Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.
Once you reach pal12, your defensive ability is almost peaked. Going further gives no improvement currently, and in mod7 will give only a minor improvement (+1 more AC aura). Conversely taking a few levels of rogue or fighter could give you either Evasion or more AC, which is a far bigger defense boost.

Of course, that specifically isn't a problem with the Paladin- the fighter and rogue classes are frontloaded at levels 1 and 2. There's no way you can nerf them at this point, and buffing paladin 13+ to be superior to rog2 would be excessive. The more serious problem is that once a pal12 gets his rog2 and fig2 in there, he has no incentive to go back to paladin for his other levels, unlike how a rog12 who splashes pal2 will probably go right back to rogue from then on.


Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.)
The Fighter CAN be an offensive class. I direct your attention to Players Handbook II, where the game designers decided to add an incentive to stay pure fighter up to level 16. They did this by allowing fighters of that level to enter a mode called Overpowering Attack which gives them double weapon damage in exchange for lower attack rate. That should be easy to bring to DDO.



The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.
Understood, but paladins have needed improvements ever since module 3. The problem grew much bigger in module 5.


I disagree with the thought that Paladins do not serve any valuable purpose.
It's not that paladins as a whole don't have a good purpose- it's that taking paladin levels beyond 12 do not meaningfully improve the fulfillment of that purpose.

That's why the mod7 changes are so disappointing: most of them are available at levels below 12, meaning they do exactly nothing to help promote paladin15 compared to "max the save aura and get out".


It's extremely effective in the mid levels when you've first gained access to Divine Sacrifice. Monsters at that point aren't likely to bust through Virtue + Bodyfeeder on the AC of the average paladin between crits, so the hp cost isn't much of an issue - it'll often refresh before the timer on DS is done, and also works if you're acting as a secondary tank in a party.
Note that there weren't really paladin complaints back when the level cap was 10. Note also that some of the players arguing against paladin changes are those who don't take the class past level 9-12. Something that is effective at "mid-levels" does exactly nothing to promote taking paladin levels past 12.


Unless you don't have a Foo of Bar weapon, of course.
At high level, every Paladin has at least a +5 holy burst. It's a class feature. And high levels are where pallies need the help.


Bodyfeeders are pretty cheap, and a Paladin can essentially turn one into "this weapon deals 5d6-9d6 damage and has +1 to its crit multiplier on the attack following a crit".
At the cost of his spellpoints, action points, and possibly hitpoints. Note that mid-level characters don't have a lot of spare AP floating around for this kind of stuff. They may be better off spending it on racial weapon damage or similar.


As for plans for the future... I expect to be implementing class specialties for the Paladin in the near future (currently winning but still subject to change: Knight of the Chalice, Defender of Sealtiel, and either the Purple Dragon Knight or an anti-undead one)
Look at Silver Flame Exorcist too. And elf/warforged racial substitution abilities (Races of Eberron/Wild)



perhaps some sort of "Divine Challenge" ability to encourage opponents to pay attention to the holy warrior that doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill.
The idea to allow a feat or enhancement to use Diplomacy on initimidate checks was submitted when DDO was in beta. It would still be a good idea now, but only if skillpoint respec were added.

Note that in Complete Divine/Champion is a paladin spell (Visage of Deity) providing +5 intimidate, +5 more intimidate against evil, and +5 more against chaotic (however, that spell would give more benefit to MC fig/rog pallies)

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 11:41 PM
See that? "(Price check on Bodyfeeding weapons!)" It's saying that you can use the temporary hitpoints granted by a crit from a bodyfeeder weapon to cover the self-damage from Divine Sacrifice.


Ahh .. see your post said a synergy with bodyfeeder and virtue which made me think you were talking about using those in combination together somewhow... which just didn't make sense. You didn't actualy metnion divine sacrifice so it was confusing.

I don't think bodyfeeder "combos" very well with Divine Sacrifice. For a real combo you would need some consistant heal over time or the like. Say the virtue spell from PnP. I suppose bodyfeeder would sort of help, but I agree that I'd rather just go wtih a high DPS weapon and if I watned some extra punch I'd take the damage for it.

I do think Divine Sacrifice is better than Vicious. Vicious takes up an item trait slot and you can't use it only when you want it. Anyhow I'll have to wait for the real skinny on DS to really judge it. On paper its so-so at best.

gpk
05-09-2008, 11:50 PM
Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.


Well it's very nice to get some official confirmation of the problem, I thank you for that, but what will you do to help paladins and other defensives builds in mod7? Paladins kept getting told mod7 right?
Are we gettign AC boosting spells like Silverbeard and Shield of the Righteous? Divine Shield? Saves boost like Righteous Aura?



It's extremely effective in the mid levels when you've first gained access to Divine Sacrifice. Monsters at that point aren't likely to bust through Virtue + Bodyfeeder on the AC of the average paladin between crits, so the hp cost isn't much of an issue - it'll often refresh before the timer on DS is done, and also works if you're acting as a secondary tank in a party. (A role that will work better come M7, when preventing monsters from reaching their target will generate aggression.)

It's not a combo that I'd recommend against the hard hitting monsters on elite at level 16, but not everyone's capped, and AC issues plaguing defensive melee classes don't become extreme until you're playing on higher difficulties near cap.

Unless you don't have a Foo of Bar weapon, of course. Bodyfeeders are pretty cheap, and a Paladin can essentially turn one into "this weapon deals 5d6-9d6 damage and has +1 to its crit multiplier on the attack following a crit".

So now you're recommending DS for mid levels? Mid level paladins don't need help, high level ones do. How does DS help levels 12? How does tier 2 and 3 DS help? DS2 is listed at level 12 and DS3 at level 19, how does another +2d6 +1 crit multi help at 12, another at 19? Let's not forget this is 1 single swing every 3 seconds that costs 1 SP and 10 HP. Do you think these damage numbers are at all feasible in DDO?

And even at the mid levels bodyfeeder is a trap; less SP, less HP and better weapons available even at that level.
The same counter-argument applies, noone will give up a better weapon to MAYBE do same (or less ) damage and MAYBE recover some HP lost.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this for mid levels and the higher level issue still stands.



Since I keep seeing this... I said that we'd prefer to improve class balance by improving other classes rather than by changing existing class abilities if that's a viable option. ("We'll do what we can to add rather than take away.") We didn't say "no more nerfs".

Oh good, can we kiss BBN Crit Rage 2 and Ram's might goodbye for the sake of balance? I know my Ranegr would gladly give up Ram's Might in the name of balance.



Back to Paladins:
As for plans for the future... I expect to be implementing class specialties for the Paladin in the near future (currently winning but still subject to change: Knight of the Chalice, Defender of Sealtiel, and either the Purple Dragon Knight or an anti-undead one) as well as considering some of the spells and divine feats from various sources. There is likely to also be more poaching of the Marshal's abilities as alternatives to the Paladin's aura, and perhaps some sort of "Divine Challenge" ability to encourage opponents to pay attention to the holy warrior that doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill.

Oh, and Tharagrim's working on the Holy Avenger.
Really some of the PrC stuff sounds nice but it's not anywhere near to being ready afaik and the core paladin class needs to be strengthened before you add PrCs to it. There is a big danger that the PrCs you mentioned as well would be extremely situational as well and thus potentially of much lesser value added to a weak base, please keep that in mind.

And yes the future plans sound good but what about mod7? We've waited a year, you told us to wait for mod7 and now you're telling us to wait some more?

What do you think of Smites and how they compare to ftr/rog boost 1? Smites are in need of significant tweaks in order to be effective, is this going to be fixed for mod7?

When I asked if you would be adding a very easy spell like Righteous Fury for paladins before mod6 your reply was "Silthe would KILL me", are we not to see any good spell for mod7?

When will see the full list of mod7 paladin changes? We're dying of thirst here.

I mean it's great that you're telling us something, but it leaves too many unanswered questions still and to be honest some of the things you're saying concern me a great deal.

P.S. a Holy Avenger is great news, long overdue imo, but please be considerate and don't make it weaker than named, crafted weapons or random weapons. I personally would prefer being able to add Holy Avenger properties on a crafted or existing weapon with say a raid loot "token".

P.P.S. Umm if Tharagrim is working on a Holy Avenger now, does that mean it's not part of Mod 7?

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 11:51 PM
Fighter Melee Haste is burst damage, Smite Evil is supposed to be burst damage and clearly the latter is not.

If it does more damage than a regular attack, which it does, then it's burst DPS.


"Give the Paladin the extra crit range enhancements identical to the Barbs, that would remove a lot of the complaints."

Clearly this one went over your heard, the poster is being sarcastic implying that the easiest way to fix the problem is to give others the same overpowered enhancements. Of course the ultimate irony is that Crit Rage 2 is a LOT better to a BBN than it would be to a pally.

So all his others suggetions were jokes too. Go look at the post. It didn't look like a joke to me. I see that expressed a lot both by paladin and fighter proponents. You ourself are constantly going on about what other classes get. Its a clear sign of jeleousy. You want something that others have or something equivilent.


Honestly have you given up so soon that you have to resort to this?

I'll give up when I get bored of the discussion.

sigtrent
05-09-2008, 11:59 PM
-BBN Crit Rage 2 mistakenly widened the DPS gap by a very large margin?

Not really all that wide actualy. Crit Rage on the best wepons for it is worth about 3-10 damage on an average swing. That is about the same as most of the good dps feats such as improved crit, or the two weapon / two handed fighting feats. Power attack has a bigger impact on damage per swing.


-Dev said no more nerfs (after nerfing paladins repeatedly), but they will give other classes good enhancements to compensate, though nowhere near as overpowered as Crit Rage2

Time will tell on that account. Personaly I think nerfs are alway a possibility.


-Mod6 Ranger Love comes around, rangers get at least the very good Tempest and the most excellent but totally made up Ram's Might

True


-Mod7 changes are announced and even though a lot of pally stuff is DPS/Burst DPS related, the implementation is botched due to whatever reason. All of it combined doesn't compare to Ram's Might alones

We shall see when its actualy avialable exactly how it works. I agree that it doesn't look real great for average dps.


-Fighters get nothing

Well they cant do everything at once. Have some pateince.


So yes PART of the problem is DPS, due to some mistakes made overpowering more than just the BBN class. Rangers were boosted as promised, Pallies and Fighters were not; the imbalance got wider

Prior to mod 7 paladins and rangers were pretty close in DPS unless the ranger was fighting a favored enemy or the paladin didn't take a weapon style set.


It's quite simple isn't it?

Ya, but all this is about DPS. Paladins get a new way to raise dead and cheaper auras, a boost to holy sword etc... its a whole package of stuff.


Instead though the straw-man rears it's ugly head and an attempt to turn the situation into pallies wanting to become "DPS powerhouses", totally false and unfounded.

That's not what I see but it is entirely a matter of opinion.


Really every time this particular straw-man is brought out it usually means the opposing party has run out of things to argue and is just trying to be antagonistic, so why continue to try to have a sane debate with these people?


You will find I rarely run out of things to say. :D

sigtrent
05-10-2008, 12:06 AM
-Divine Favor (duh).

Clecirs also have this, its a spell, not a class abbility technicaly. They also have


-Smite Evil (**** in DDO but still)

Yep


-Bless Weapon (SRD)

Never used it, usualy you have a better magic weapon.


-Holy Sword (DDO version moslty sucks, but finally got a real bump)

Ya... one of those things you get past paladin 12 and all that!


--Paladin Mount

Not an offensive abbility. Its mostly fluf.


-Divine Might

Not a paladin class abbility.


-Then there are the spell compendium spells which I'm sure I don't need to go into again; do I ?

Nope.


-Yes yes straw-man, we know you love the scarecrow.Read a post further up.

Say it all you like. Its becoming a straw man in and of itself. You do know what a sraw man argument is right?

sigtrent
05-10-2008, 12:14 AM
Nm

gpk
05-10-2008, 12:16 AM
I've never seen a +5 holy burst weapon. Not everyone farms this game.
You haven't seen +1 greater banes? +3 holy bursts of rigteousness? Tier 2 crafted pos pos khopesh (oh wait thats +5 holy burst pure good)?

It's true you don't run out of things to say...

Taerdra
05-10-2008, 12:25 AM
It's true you don't run out of things to say...

It's also true you never run out of whine...

Gum
05-10-2008, 12:31 AM
Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.

I disagree with the thought that Paladins do not serve any valuable purpose.


Divine Sacrifice won't interrupt your attack sequence, there's no real need to pause.


It's extremely effective in the mid levels when you've first gained access to Divine Sacrifice. Monsters at that point aren't likely to bust through Virtue + Bodyfeeder on the AC of the average paladin between crits, so the hp cost isn't much of an issue - it'll often refresh before the timer on DS is done, and also works if you're acting as a secondary tank in a party. (A role that will work better come M7, when preventing monsters from reaching their target will generate aggression.)

It's not a combo that I'd recommend against the hard hitting monsters on elite at level 16, but not everyone's capped, and AC issues plaguing defensive melee classes don't become extreme until you're playing on higher difficulties near cap.


Unless you don't have a Foo of Bar weapon, of course. Bodyfeeders are pretty cheap, and a Paladin can essentially turn one into "this weapon deals 5d6-9d6 damage and has +1 to its crit multiplier on the attack following a crit".


You'll have to have a monster finish you off or unequip your Con item, we don't let hp-cost abilities actually kill you.


Since I keep seeing this... I said that we'd prefer to improve class balance by improving other classes rather than by changing existing class abilities if that's a viable option. ("We'll do what we can to add rather than take away.") We didn't say "no more nerfs".

Back to Paladins:

As for plans for the future... I expect to be implementing class specialties for the Paladin in the near future (currently winning but still subject to change: Knight of the Chalice, Defender of Sealtiel, and either the Purple Dragon Knight or an anti-undead one) as well as considering some of the spells and divine feats from various sources. There is likely to also be more poaching of the Marshal's abilities as alternatives to the Paladin's aura, and perhaps some sort of "Divine Challenge" ability to encourage opponents to pay attention to the holy warrior that doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill.

Oh, and Tharagrim's working on the Holy Avenger.


*Takes Deep Breath*...WOOOOOOOT! Most excellent. ty.

gpk
05-10-2008, 12:49 AM
It's also true you never run out of whine...

LOL can I put this as my signature?

Pellegro
05-10-2008, 01:17 AM
Nevermind ... finishing reading the thread and decided against jumping into the fray.

I'll just say that the choice a pally faces of taking the immediate benefits of a quick splash versus little to no gain from leveling up is NOT unique to paladins. Perhaps they have gotten lucky up to level 12, but every class faces those issues ... repeatedly ... at various levels through the game. Its endemic to a system that is being created as we go (which is not a bad thing - allows flexibility and response based on actual play).

Angelus_dead
05-10-2008, 01:29 AM
First, the value of a 1 or 2 level class splash in rogue or fighter is applicable to every class in the game. It is particularly applicable to melee classes. So complaining about that issue specifically with regards to Paladins is not unique - it pretty much applies to fighters and rangers as well. You're criticizing a core function of D&D that comes from PnP -- front loaded abilities.
No. As you obviously missed, I specifically explained that that is not the problem. I will repeat: The problem is not that paladins have an incentive to splash 1-2 levels of rogue and/or fighter, but that they have no incentive to go back to paladin afterwards.

There are many classes which can strongly benefit from 1-2 levels of rogue or fighter. Barbarians, rogues, bards, clerics, wizards, and others can gain a lot by giving up 1-2 levels of their class to get either weapon profs + tower shield + bonus feat, or UMD skill, trap skill, and evasion. But after they've got the frontloaded rogue/fighter abilities, they go back to their primary class. The wiz15/rog1 who has UMD and Disable skills is going to stay wizard to keep up with the highest level of spells. The rog15/fig1 who has martial proficiencies and a bonus feat is going to stay rogue to keep up with the max sneak attack damage.

But for a pal12/rog2/fig2 or similar builds, not only are the front-loaded fighter and rogue levels 1-2 more powerful than paladin 13-16, but fighter/rogue levels 2-4 are more powerful too.


Second, and this is acknowledged in your above post, you don't know what the next levels of paladin will bring. You equate this to "self nerfing" - but its not at all. Its just an inherent part of the game, applicable to every class.
It's not inherent. It is a game-design flaw. We shouldn't need to make guesses as to whether paladin18 will have something cool and worthwhile. The in-between levels of paladin 13-17 need to have value on their own.


Third, every class "peaks" at different points, and Pally may end up being a class that "peaks" at the lower levels and that doesnt' bring much to the table at higher levels. Fighters are the same way - while they're a defensive class, they excel at lower levels in DPS due to their feats and enhancements.
That is another game-design flaw, which should not be treated as either desirable or inevitable.


So you have to ask yourself - do I want to splash, and perhaps later regret it (but enjoy the benefits now)? Or do I stay pure, swallow that I'm not getting evasion or the extra feat, to see what Lvls 17-20 bring? Thats a choice every class faces ....
The DDO developers should not force their customers to make that choice. It's not a fun decision to make.

sigtrent
05-10-2008, 01:36 AM
You haven't seen +1 greater banes? +3 holy bursts of rigteousness? Tier 2 crafted pos pos khopesh (oh wait thats +5 holy burst pure good)?

It's true you don't run out of things to say...


I have +1 greater banes yes. Holy burst of rigteousness.. I wish. I have a +4 holy rightousness. Tier 2 crafed items.. again, I wish I had any greensteel items.. but alass I have not had the time to farm for ingredients.

sigtrent
05-10-2008, 01:44 AM
Concerned about balance and fairness; that may not concern you, it's hard to say..

It matters to me, but it is a relative question. Those classes should do more damage than paladin, the question comes down to.. how much?


+1 AB +4 Dmg per swing is a lot by DDO standards, jsut like +10-20-30 for XXX XXXX 2 is a lot.
It's +8 STR worth of Damage, its 3 ftr feats etc; it's all about those little +X that add up and contribute overall.
Why do you try to get better weapons? Why try to get better raid loot, tomes etc? Well you don't because by your own admission you're don't play like many of us do, like I do...

Its good, but not game breaking. I've done quests naked, done them by using only my fists, done them in all kinds of ways. I do builds and I'm alwasy fussing over small damage bonuses. But to say it is game breaking is just silly.



It's clear now you're not looking at or playing the game the same way many of us do.

Yep, and there are lots of people that play the game in all kinds of different ways. That is news to you?


It seems to me you and I see the game in very different ways and I don't consider myself "forum-famous", I have no forum ego to protect..

Whaterver you say bro.


You come late into the pally debate armed with the same easily refuted arguments many have used before you and I take the time to refute them...

Just ignore me if you like. Its a forum there arn't rules for when you can join the discussion. And I've been involved in debates on any and all classes pretty much since day 1. I don't follow every thread however and sometimes don't see a juicy one until its a couple pages long or don't see anything that needs refuting until later on.


So what's left to debate? In the future I will be ignoring your posts, it's really too time consuming to keep up with the straw-men and oversimplifications and I've done my part out of courtesy.

People often say they will do that... but they rarely do.

sigtrent
05-10-2008, 01:52 AM
The DDO developers should not force their customers to make that choice. It's not a fun decision to make.

Generaly I agree. The fact is though, the devs don't yet know exactly what levels 17-20 will have. I'm sure they know more than we do but until the feature are tried, tested and approved they arn't likely to say what they are. Even if they did have a master plan... it would likely change as they find out what happens when the players and thier devious minds get a hold of the actual abbilities and spells.

So, for MMO land, this is the way it works. You have to just ride the wave and find out what happens when it happens and hope for the best. Its not like one character is so massively superior to some other character that there it really stubs your game performance. If something does totaly gimp you out, then there is a serious issue. If you just feel like your DPS is 5% shallower than someone elses.. well they can't all be exactly the same all the time.

Personaly I like to debate the hard numbers or the strategy. He said she said is kind of pointless (although I'll take my debates where I can get them sometimes). Sometiems I don't even know what the heck folks who argue with me are trying to actualy get across. Folks rant and wave their hands and make grand statements. On the substance we often agree but the hystronics tend to put me in opposition.

I still can't get the answer to my burning question from the Paladins Love Sucks squad....

Why did you make a paladin? What did you expect it to be like?

Kisaragi
05-10-2008, 01:54 AM
Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.


That's great. Here are some bench-tests I suggest you run to find out what you need to improve;

1.) Do a shroud raid as a pure paladin. No splish-splashing of anything. Then tell me, what is the paladin role when you get to the fourth/fifth part? It's not attacking because they don't have the feats to withstand 400+ hits. It's not healing, as they don't have enough manna/umd, heal bonuses to keep anything alive. Figure out what role the paladin has in this quest other then adding a small bonus with auras that most spells cover. For double points, figure out what they add to the group that cannot be replaced by a stronger class.

2.) Run most high level quests as a pure paladin (gianthold or higher). Now, ask yourself, am I really contributing to the group, or am I being saved a lot. I'd love to see your answer on this.

3.) Run Stromvauld's Mine Elite, solo. Find all the things (even as a high level paladin) you thought you were better at defeating.

4.) Go out to any outside landscape hunter/explorer landscape by yourself. Find out how fast you burn through potions/wands till you hit a chest.

5.) Play Wizard King on any difficulty and watch how fast you use up resources.

6.) Run to Meridia from the twelve. How many wands/potions did you use?

7.) Last one. Do a run of shadow tombs quests. Time yourself. On a level 14 or higher pure paladin, doing the quest on normal, how fast do you bite the big one?


Here's the thing.
Good players make paladins viable. Otherwise, we have been completely shunned for help. The best way to make a paladin work is to spend tons of money on potions, scrolls, and other equipment. At that point, it really doesn't matter if you're a paladin or not. A fighter does just as well as a paladin, possibly better.

If you want to see how pathetic they are here are some combinations to test them out against;

Level 10 Fighter/Level 6 Cleric
Level 10 Fighter/Level 6 Bard
Level 10 Fighter/Level 6 Ranger
Level 6 Fighter/Level 10 Cleric
Level 6 Ranger/Level 6 Cleric/Level 4 Fighter

There is nothing a paladin does better then anyone else. Nothing. Barbarians rage for awesome strength. Fighters have tons of feats for customization. Bards/Clerics are significantly better healers. Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics have significantly better buffs. Rangers/Rogues end up using UMD better then paladins to use healing scrolls.

That is where you failed. You never came up with a concept of the paladin, and so, things have ended up as a mish-mash hoping to fix the problem with bubblegum and duct-tape. And it's funny because whenever you release new things, and haven't fleshed out the concept of where are we going with Paladins, they get worse.

Look. I'll appreciate the lower AP costs for the auras. It means I can have more of them, or higher levels of things. In all reality though, it just brings it back to what it was before we had the new enhancement system.

At this point I'm never expecting a fix for paladins. You'll never be spending some difficult time redesigning them because all to often, it has seemed as if you just don't care. You can fix classes you play, and the rest be da****.

I've said this before and I'll say it again;

Brand me a heretic but, if you cared about the players, really cared; the loot system would be 400&#37; better, monsters wouldn't be over-inflated to be just plain nasty, they wouldn't exploit the scenery, or have obvious advantages players can never have. The system would be balanced for both players and monsters. It's not. You enjoy your monsters too much to care if a few people leave the game.

Shade
05-10-2008, 02:07 AM
I disagree with the thought that Paladins do not serve any valuable purpose.

It's not a combo that I'd recommend against the hard hitting monsters on elite at level 16, but not everyone's capped, and AC issues plaguing defensive melee classes don't become extreme until you're playing on higher difficulties near cap.



Preface: I want to first acknoledge that you I really appriaciate you, Eladrins responses on this message board - You are by far the most frequen dev posted and offer the most valuipte official input by far from. As such I really appreciate such a detailed response.

First quote: Formale - I agree, the paladins aura and other abilties provide a great benefit to any group attempting most level appropriate quests. For elite - No I disagree - the paladin offers no really benefit to the group in 75% or more cases.. simply because there benefits are mainly AC and saves... AC - Elite players have the AC or they don't - either way the aura doesn't matter. Saves - the same, elite players have the saves boosts or they don't - the majority of which are item based due to the slot restriction placed on us (resistance items are ither cloacks or rings - both of which can be replaced by many other important benefits) ... as such - elite player that want to/need to suceed to in these fields already do 95% - with or without a paladins suppot. Unfortunalyte in a d20 system, +4 or +5 (mod7) makes very little difefrent when the main bonus is as much as +40 or more.

2nd qupte - in the end game - the ones that matter.. The DPS builds (ie what I play) do not recruit paladins, period. heh, Ask GPK - top endgame paladin player. Why? Because we don't need to. Your balanced the mob AC lower enough that we hit on a 2 regardless - and you balanced the monsters acordingly - which only makes sense. A limitation of the d20 system again. The fix? a complex one tha invovles serious rebalancing of enhancements that I don't see working in the the short term..

My suggestion fix: Read gpk post, his ideas have merits.

Conclusion:
GG. Paladin still lose, but some (err......) might think there winning at least.

That said - maybe turbine is doing the right thing, I mean the majority of paladin players are not the ones that post on this board or regard - so they may indeed be very happy with this patch, who knows but them.

Angelus_dead
05-10-2008, 02:13 AM
1.) Do a shroud raid as a pure paladin. No splish-splashing of anything. Then tell me, what is the paladin role when you get to the fourth/fifth part? It's not attacking because they don't have the feats to withstand 400+ hits. It's not healing, as they don't have enough manna/umd, heal bonuses to keep anything alive
On normal mode, any reasonably equipped character can be attacking. A single paladin is helpful because he gives a large boost to the saving throws of the other attackers, reducing the damage they take from DBF. However, a non-pure paladin could have exactly the same aura, and also Evasion and Sneak Attack, making him strictly superior to the pure build.


2.) Run most high level quests as a pure paladin (gianthold or higher). Now, ask yourself, am I really contributing to the group, or am I being saved a lot. I'd love to see your answer on this.
As you know, any good player can often find some way to contribute regardless of class. The more precise question to be asking is: Would my contribution go up or down if some of my pally levels were replaced with rogue, fighter, or ranger?. The answer is almost always that you would improve.


4.) Go out to any outside landscape hunter/explorer landscape by yourself. Find out how fast you burn through potions/wands till you hit a chest.
Once again, a knowledgeable and skilled player can get many chests from those zones without fighting many monsters. Most of them will stop chasing you after a special boundary, after all.


5.) Play Wizard King on any difficulty and watch how fast you use up resources.
On normal mode a pal16 would struggle to find anything that could threaten him there.


There is nothing a paladin does better then anyone else. Nothing.
What you're doing here is promoting a strawman, which gives the opposition a weak target to refute so they can declare victory. Your mistake is one of two possible things:
1. You're saying "paladin" when you really mean "pure paladin" or "almost pure paladin".
2. You're ignoring that charisma-to-saves and saving throw auras are powerful and useful.

There are numerous jobs in DDO for which nobody can do it better than someone with paladin levels. But paladin12+ almost never contributes to those functions. The strongest unique abilities of a paladin are the personal and party save bonuses, which cap out at level 2 and 11, respectively.

Tallyn
05-10-2008, 04:40 AM
Ask GPK - top endgame paladin player.

Lol, is GPK on Khyber? hehe

gpk
05-10-2008, 04:45 AM
Lol, is GPK on Khyber? hehe

Nah I only play on the forums :rolleyes:

P.S. See ! even Shade thinks his toons need to be nerfed! :eek: