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Wipeout
05-01-2008, 07:38 PM
I've got a Wizard started and browsing the AH for future items on Wizardry or Power for + SPs, when I read that Sorcerors gain the benefit of doubling spell points benefits from spell point items (or so in line to the text). So the burning question for me stands whether or not Wizards get this OR its added color text for these Wizardry 'x' or Power 'x' description. Could someone please enlighten me on this. I wont shrug off the added SPs but I figured...Hell...2x SP bonus for +SP items for Wizards would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any replies to clarify this out for me.

Gadget2775
05-01-2008, 07:53 PM
Only Sorcs get additional spell points. All other classes get the base.

GlassCannon
05-02-2008, 12:02 AM
Only Sorcs get additional spell points. All other classes get the base.

To balance the fact that it is extremely difficult and expensive to change spells for sorcs, and the fact that their slots are gimped to a max of 4(Not in accordance to PnP, but ok for higher level use.). Wizards get 5 interchangeable slots, Sorc's are affixed with the changing process for 1 singular spell taking 3 days(or close enough to 3 days).


Respecializing a wizard from fire/cold to lighting/acid takes all of 8 minutes(and about 3k plat or so or whatever for enhancement reset). Respecializing a nuking fire/ice sorc to a nuking lightning/acid takes 36 days if level 14 and 42 if level 16(and over 1 million plat).



If in fact this is the sole reason Sorcs get additional SP from SP items, Bards should get the same benefit but don't, due to an oversight.

Gadget2775
05-02-2008, 03:06 PM
To balance the fact that it is extremely difficult and expensive to change spells for sorcs, and the fact that their slots are gimped to a max of 4(Not in accordance to PnP, but ok for higher level use.). Wizards get 5 interchangeable slots, Sorc's are affixed with the changing process for 1 singular spell taking 3 days(or close enough to 3 days).

Respecializing a wizard from fire/cold to lighting/acid takes all of 8 minutes(and about 3k plat or so or whatever for enhancement reset). Respecializing a nuking fire/ice sorc to a nuking lightning/acid takes 36 days if level 14 and 42 if level 16(and over 1 million plat).

If in fact this is the sole reason Sorcs get additional SP from SP items, Bards should get the same benefit but don't, due to an oversight.

Actually they get the SP boost because Sorcs are suppose to be able to cast more often per day. With that in mind Turbine chose to provide them as additional SP boost from Power/Wizardry items. It has nothing to do with spell slots or requirements for respecing. As with all other casting classes, Bards are excluded from the additional SP because they aren't suppose to be able to cast more often.

rimble
05-02-2008, 03:52 PM
I've got a Wizard started and browsing the AH for future items on Wizardry or Power for + SPs, when I read that Sorcerors gain the benefit of doubling spell points benefits from spell point items (or so in line to the text). So the burning question for me stands whether or not Wizards get this OR its added color text for these Wizardry 'x' or Power 'x' description. Could someone please enlighten me on this. I wont shrug off the added SPs but I figured...Hell...2x SP bonus for +SP items for Wizards would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any replies to clarify this out for me.

And can't take one level of Sorcerer and gain double spell points on items. It's pro-rated depending on how many Sorcerer levels you have (versus your total character level) and totally not worth it.

Emili
05-02-2008, 05:03 PM
Actually they get the SP boost because Sorcs are suppose to be able to cast more often per day. With that in mind Turbine chose to provide them as additional SP boost from Power/Wizardry items. It has nothing to do with spell slots or requirements for respecing. As with all other casting classes, Bards are excluded from the additional SP because they aren't suppose to be able to cast more often.


Actually a bard falls within the same line as an non-prepared spotaneous caster in PnP... It does not in DDO as an oversite... in all rights they would have the fast casting in PnP using the Spell point rule variation. The Extra SP given a sorc is a freebie given to them by DDO as the SP system was already laid out in the ruleset by class - nothing in the ruleset on the SP variant ruleset speaks about increasing SP bonus' of an item due to class or spontaneous casting that I can find as of yet.

Bonus Spell Points and Bonus Spells
Any spellcaster who would normally receive bonus spells for a high ability score receives bonus spell points instead. In effect, the character can simply cast more of his spells each day.

To determine the number of bonus spell points gained from a high ability score, first find the row for the character’s ability score on Table: Bonus Spell Points. Use whichever ability score would normally award bonus spells for the character’s class (Wisdom for clerics and druids, Intelligence for wizards, and so forth).

Next, find the column for the highest level of spell the character is capable of casting based on his class level (even if he doesn’t have a high enough ability score to cast spells of that level). At the point where the row and column intersect, you find the bonus spell points the character gains. This value can change each time his ability score undergoes a permanent change (such from an ability score increase due to character level or one from a wish spell) and each time his level changes.

For example, Boredflak the 4th-level wizard has an Intelligence score of 16 and is capable of casting 2nd-level spells. The number on Table: Bonus Spell Points at the intersection of the 16-17 row and the 2nd column is 4, so Boredflak has 4 extra spell points to spend each day (in addition to the 11 points he gets for being a 4th-level wizard). If Boredflak’s Intelligence were increased to 20 because of a fox’s cunning spell or a headband of intellect +4, he wouldn’t gain any additional bonus spell points, since those effects produce temporary changes, not permanent changes. However, when he reaches 5th level, his bonus spell points would increase from 4 to 9 (since he is now capable of casting 3rd-level spells and thus uses that column), and his overall total would increase from 15 to 25.

A character who would normally receive bonus spells from a class feature (such as from wizard specialization or access to a domain) can instead prepare extra spells of the appropriate levels, domains, and/or schools. The character doesn’t get any extra spell points (and thus can’t cast any more spells than normal), but the added flexibility of being able to use the bonus spell more than once per day makes up for that.

For instance, a specialist wizard can prepare one extra spell from the chosen school of each spell level that he can cast. A cleric can prepare one domain spell (chosen from among his domain spells available) of each spell level that he can cast.

For example, if Boredflak were an evoker, he could prepare one additional spell per level, but that spell would have to be from the evocation school. Once it is prepared, he can use that spell just like any of his other spells, casting it as often as he has spell points.

Another example: At 1st level, Haigh the cleric gains a bonus 1st-level spell, which must be selected from one of his two domains. Once it is prepared, he can use that domain spell just like any of his other spells, casting it as often as he has spell points.

For class features that grant bonus spells of a nonfixed spell level (such as the dragon disciple’s bonus spells), the character instead gains a number of bonus spell points equal to twice the highest spell level he can cast, minus 1 (minimum 1 point) each time he gains a bonus spell. This is a fixed value—it doesn’t increase later as the character gains levels—though later rewards may be larger as appropriate to the character’s spellcasting ability.

For example, a 4th-level fighter/4th-level sorcerer who gains a level of dragon disciple gets a bonus spell. Since the character is capable of casting 2nd-level spells, he receives 3 bonus spell points (2 × 2 = 4, 4 - 1 = 3).

Spontaneous Spellcasting

Characters who cast all their spells spontaneously—such as bards and sorcerers—don’t have to prepare spells. They can cast any spell they know by spending the requisite number of spell points.

Characters with the ability to cast a limited number of spells spontaneously (such as druids, who can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of another spell of the same level) are always treated as having those spells prepared, without spending any spell slots to do so. Thus, they can cast such spells any time they have sufficient spell points.

Under this system, the Healing domain becomes a relatively poor choice for good-aligned clerics, since they gain less of a benefit for that domain. See Spontaneous Divine Casters for ways to solve that dilemma.

Metagame Analysis: Spell Points
The spell point system dramatically expands the versatility of a spellcaster. Since he’s no longer tied to using a specific number of spell slots, he can much more easily adapt to situations. In effect, spell points make all classes work more like the sorcerer, and make the sorcerer (or bard) work even more like the sorcerer. In general, spellcasters become more powerful—though they aren’t capable of casting any spell they couldn’t cast before, they are now capable of casting more high-level spells per day and more of whichever spells they need. If a 15th-level cleric needs to cast heal a dozen times during an adventure, he can do that (though not much else).

One balancing factor is the cost for casters to increase the damage dealt by their spells. This cost helps to maintain balance between spells of different level. If you didn’t have to pay more for a 9d6 lightning bolt than for a 5d6 lightning bolt (a 3rd-level spell costing 5 spell points), then the 9d6 lightning bolt would cost barely more than half as much as a 9d6 cone of cold (a 5th-level spell costing 9 spell points), even though both spells deal equal damage.

If you use this variant, consider adding other game elements that influence (or are influenced by) spell points. These might include magic items that grant (or cost) spell points, feats that grant bonus spell points (or make certain spells cost fewer spell points to cast), special abilities that drain spell points from casters, and so forth.

Spontaneous Metamagic
One of the more radical concepts recently introduced to the d20 game is the metamagic feat. These feats allow spellcasters to tinker with their spells’ range, area, damage, components required, and even casting time. While such options existed in previous editions of the game, they usually required the caster to use other spells to affect his magic, rather than relying on pure talent.

However, this new option comes with a significant cost, particularly for those casters who prepare spells (such as clerics, druids, and wizards). Such characters must plan in advance which spells they wish to use their metamagic feats on, and prepare those spells in the appropriate higher-level spell slot. This requirement forces the character to guess which spells will be needed in which situations. If a caster anticipates being grappled, a stilled spell would be extraordinarily valuable—but which one? If a character expects to be sneaking around, she should consider using Silent Spell on one or more of her spells—but how many? In many cases, these choices are for naught, since the caster ends up using her silent magic missile in ordinary combat, or her enlarged fireball in a space too small to take advantage of the expanded range.

Characters who don’t prepare spells in advance (such as bards and sorcerers) have a distinct advantage in that they can choose to use their metamagic feats “on the fly”; that is, at the time of casting. The cost is an extended casting time (making Quicken Spell a useless option for such characters), but this cost is rarely balanced with that paid by other spellcasters.

Spells : Sorcerer
A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Spells: Bard
A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: The Bard are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

I speculate DDO gave the extra SP to the sorc because 1.) It is the sorcerer's main deal... casting spells... unlike PnP where they often do other things besides... and 2.) the Wizards metas allow a wizard to general function off less SP due to the shear number of meta-magic feats they may employ... the wizard lands spells easier when spec'd well while the sorc on average must due so thru shear spamming... Problem with the system though is wizard cannot spam as quickly as the sorc... thus in the case of wiz/sorc and equal DC/SR the Sorc actually waste more sp then the wizard in the landing the spells and typically the wizard in play waste more sp targeting the same mob as the sorc and jetting off the spell a hair off the same timing;-) The typical wiz though is also viewed as a party support more often - ie.) buffing bot... However the wizards shear number of metas actually make the class a much better sp efficient caster... thus this is why I see DDO giving more sp to the sorc via items.

By rights a sorc known spells should be 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 at lvl 16 with up to 6 spells of each level per day... while the wizards should be more in toon of 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 ... however because the DDO spell list is nowhere near as comprehensive as the DnD spell list I suppose they gave both the Sorcerer and Wizard a lot more leway.

Gadget2775
05-02-2008, 06:55 PM
Actually a bard falls within the same line as an non-prepared spotaneous caster in PnP... It does not in DDO as an oversite... in all rights they would have the fast casting in PnP using the Spell point rule variation. The Extra SP given a sorc is a freebie given to them by DDO as the SP system was already laid out in the ruleset by class - nothing in the ruleset on the SP variant ruleset speaks about increasing SP bonus' of an item due to class or spontaneous casting that I can find as of yet.

**SNIPPED**

I speculate DDO gave the extra SP to the sorc because 1.) It is the sorcerer's main deal... casting spells... unlike PnP where they often do other things besides... and 2.) the Wizards metas allow a wizard to general function off less SP due to the shear number of meta-magic feats they may employ... the wizard lands spells easier when spec'd well while the sorc on average must due so thru shear spamming... Problem with the system though is wizard cannot spam as quickly as the sorc... thus in the case of wiz/sorc and equal DC/SR the Sorc actually waste more sp then the wizard in the landing the spells and typically the wizard in play waste more sp targeting the same mob as the sorc and jetting off the spell a hair off the same timing;-) The typical wiz though is also viewed as a party support more often - ie.) buffing bot... However the wizards shear number of metas actually make the class a much better sp efficient caster... thus this is why I see DDO giving more sp to the sorc via items.

By rights a sorc known spells should be 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 at lvl 16 with up to 6 spells of each level per day... while the wizards should be more in toon of 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 ... however because the DDO spell list is nowhere near as comprehensive as the DnD spell list I suppose they gave both the Sorcerer and Wizard a lot more leway.



Dear gosh...Hijack much? The initial question was in regards to bonus spell points Sorcs gain from items (Power/Wizardry). It really has nothing to do with whether or not Bards should match Sorcs for casting speed due to spontaneous casting ability.

My statement was that Turbine chose to provide Sorcs additional spell points from (Power/Wizardry) as an extension of them naturally being able to cast more per day than other casting classes. At lvl 20 both Bards and Wizards have a base of 4 spells per spell level. Sorcerers, by comparison, have a base of 6 per spell level. Thusly, they're naturally able to cast more often than other casting classes. Doesn't matter if it isn't listed in any of the SRDs, it's a house rule

Again, it wasn't because they're spontaneous casters (which would include Bards), missing known spell per level, because the Wizard gains bonus metamagics or because it's hard to respec (which would also include Bards).

Wipeout
05-04-2008, 04:04 PM
I speculate DDO gave the extra SP to the sorc because 1.) It is the sorcerer's main deal... casting spells... unlike PnP where they often do other things besides... and 2.) the Wizards metas allow a wizard to general function off less SP due to the shear number of meta-magic feats they may employ... the wizard lands spells easier when spec'd well while the sorc on average must due so thru shear spamming... Problem with the system though is wizard cannot spam as quickly as the sorc... thus in the case of wiz/sorc and equal DC/SR the Sorc actually waste more sp then the wizard in the landing the spells and typically the wizard in play waste more sp targeting the same mob as the sorc and jetting off the spell a hair off the same timing;-) The typical wiz though is also viewed as a party support more often - ie.) buffing bot... However the wizards shear number of metas actually make the class a much better sp efficient caster... thus this is why I see DDO giving more sp to the sorc via items.



Thanks to everyone helping out to clarify this up. I was slightly disappointed but Emili gave a fair expanded outlook on the casters. It helped me better judge how DDO distinquishes Wizard verse Sorceror. I have a few other questions but my main OP was answered. Thanks again.