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Zartuul
04-28-2008, 06:03 PM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

cpito
04-28-2008, 06:06 PM
huh? every shroud run i've ever been in has had at least 2 casters, often times more

Shyver
04-28-2008, 06:06 PM
How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank?

You mean a raid like the Reaver? :rolleyes:

Arnya
04-28-2008, 06:07 PM
How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank?

What, like the Reaver raid?

LOL

CrimsonEagle
04-28-2008, 06:08 PM
You mean a raid like the Reaver? :rolleyes:

Bah, you dont need a tank for that.

Better example would be...........................................

Sorry....cant think of one.

thatguy
04-28-2008, 06:08 PM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Oh please.

Draclaud
04-28-2008, 06:09 PM
What, like the Reaver raid?

LOL

You forgot Demon Queen Version 3.0

feynman
04-28-2008, 06:10 PM
I see your point, but you're only complaining because you're experiencing what most other classes usually get; when do you ever want more than one rogue? OTOH, it seems like you could fill in a cleric spot if there are a bunch of WF in the raid...

CrimsonEagle
04-28-2008, 06:10 PM
Oh please.


It has to be a joke......has to be.

LordEricoftheDragons
04-28-2008, 06:11 PM
I'm pretty sure it wasn't the developers intention to do that; however, they probably could have put a little more thought into how they made the quest. Come to think of it this must be how the rogues feel all the time no one ever wants two of them for some reason. If the game ever changes from 3rd edition to the upcoming 4th edition of D&D rules this kind of stuff should be less of a problem, they're making everyone equal in and out of combat in the new rule set.

LordEricoftheDragons
04-28-2008, 06:13 PM
But then again I've never done the Shroud so I wouldn't even know.

Zartuul
04-28-2008, 06:23 PM
Every Reaver raid I've been on has has no less then 3 tanks. Every Shroud raid I see has no more then 2 casters. Often only one caster.

Ughh
04-28-2008, 06:24 PM
I guess "optimal" is in the eye of the beholder. We have run a few all rogue..yes ALL rogue shroud runs and part 3 did not need a caster, the rogues healed themselves and plenty of dps was seen. My point is that you could do the shroud with one tank, hero method and a bunch of clerics and casters. What I am trying to say is, dont be afraid to try anything...you may be quite surprised by what "optimal" really is :) will it cost resources? probably... will it take a few tuns to work out the bugs? definately.. Will it be worth it? Why not...nothing else to do but try and learn til mod 7 hits All IMHO of course

CrimsonEagle
04-28-2008, 06:25 PM
Every Reaver raid I've been on has has no less then 3 tanks. Every Shroud raid I see has no more then 2 casters. Often only one caster.

Trust me. The casters are just being nice.

Naso24
04-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Most of the Shroud raids I have been on have 2 or 3 casters. Taking only 1 caster is just asking for trouble, since they are *squishy*.

Most groups include 2-3 casters, 2-3 clerics, 3-4 melees, a bard if available, and the rest rangers/rogues. Seems balanced to me.

BlueLightBandit
04-28-2008, 06:29 PM
I guess "optimal" is in the eye of the beholder. We have run a few all rogue..yes ALL rogue shroud runs and part 3 did not need a caster, the rogues healed themselves and plenty of dps was seen. My point is that you could do the shroud with one tank, hero method and a bunch of clerics and casters. What I am trying to say is, dont be afraid to try anything...you may be quite surprised by what "optimal" really is :) will it cost resources? probably... will it take a few tuns to work out the bugs? definately.. Will it be worth it? Why not...nothing else to do but try and learn til mod 7 hits All IMHO of course

Rofl... I'm just thinking of the poor ole red guy trying to figure out who's hittimg him so hard. When he thinks he's found the culprit 11 others start hitting harder...

Tyrande
04-28-2008, 06:34 PM
Probably the OP was joining a raid where the leader had a spot already reserved for a caster friend of his/hers?

Either that, or that the leader did not like casters or thought that the sole caster was enough? (due to knowing that caster?)

Every shroud raid I was on had at least 2 arcane casters. It was down from 3.
The third spot probably taken up by the bard.

Rest of the spots were 3 clerics, 3 melee attackers, and 3 ranged attackers.

sirgog
04-28-2008, 06:36 PM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Can't think of any other raid you want multiple tanks on - but they are all easy enough that the deadweight doesn't hurt...

But yeah, it is tough to get into a caster slot in a Shroud run. Were Arrietrikos to have 5-8 more AC, a little more fortification and 50% less HP, I'd say the raid would work better for all classes - melees would deal roughly half the damage they do now which would work out well with the Fiend at half HP, and arcanes would be able to make a worthwhile enough dent in his HP that you would be happy to run a completion run with either the current standard group of 6-8 melees including exactly one bard, 3-4 clerics and 1-2 arcane casters, or alternately with 2 melees 3 clerics and 7 arcanes.

Dexxaan
04-28-2008, 06:39 PM
Just as a Tank may need to Start his own Reaver Raids to get them done....maybe you should start your own "Optimal" Shroud Runs.....


Difficult?

sirgog
04-28-2008, 06:44 PM
Rofl... I'm just thinking of the poor ole red guy trying to figure out who's hittimg him so hard. When he thinks he's found the culprit 11 others start hitting harder...

LOL

Twerpp
04-28-2008, 07:30 PM
I was 2 arcanes, a cleric and a bard that saved our assess that day...when a lag spike from the nine hells wiped the other 8 people into the abyss in the blink of a blink dogs blink. With nearly a quarter life left on the fiend, who do you think it was that killed him? The battlecleric? The spoony bard? Nay, the casters were certainly good for something that day. An epic battle.

Naso24
04-28-2008, 10:06 PM
The reason for not needing casters is the effectiveness of mana. A caster can unload 100% of their mana and not make a huge dent on Arrietrikos, certainly not 1/10 his HP. If we had greater or superior potency VIII items, things might be different, since the most effective spell I have found is polar ray.

Eudimio
04-28-2008, 10:45 PM
The reason for not needing casters is the effectiveness of mana. A caster can unload 100% of their mana and not make a huge dent on Arrietrikos, certainly not 1/10 his HP. If we had greater or superior potency VIII items, things might be different, since the most effective spell I have found is polar ray.

Keep working on those effective spells.

Ray of enfeeblement and waves of exhaustion are the two best spells to use on the pit fiend. If you aren't casting those, then you aren't helping. Once he's debuffed, rotate stoneskin and protection from fire on all of the meleers.

Square peg, meet round hole.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-28-2008, 11:10 PM
How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank?

We have that, its called Reaver.


In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

I hate that term "end game", but that aside, never really had a problem getting my caster into Shroud raids. Usually groups take at least 1 but often go in with more.

GeneralDiomedes
04-28-2008, 11:16 PM
Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

Twerpp
04-28-2008, 11:25 PM
Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

LOL I heard it was a raid that required 12 paladins whose auras stacked for a +60 AC bonus?

GeneralDiomedes
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
LOL I heard it was a raid that required 12 paladins whose auras stacked for a +60 AC bonus?

Maybe the real paladin love will be Vorpal Aura!

FluffyCalico
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
My sorc never has trouble getting into shroud groups. Often they already have a caster so they took LF caster down but why I send a tell they let me in. Could be my caster has a good reputation for making its self useful or that they know I carry reconstuct and heal scrolls. Or the issue could be your casters reputation in the shroud. just guesses here.

Uska
04-29-2008, 12:28 AM
Been in the shroud with mutiple casters one of which was mine and she is a multiclass wiz/rge and was a fast easy run on several lfms I saw multiple casters in a shroud group that I wished I wasnt to busy to join, so not really sure what your talking about but maybe you have just had bad luck with avialbe groups on your server.

Ghoste
04-29-2008, 12:35 AM
I see your point, but you're only complaining because you're experiencing what most other classes usually get; when do you ever want more than one rogue? OTOH, it seems like you could fill in a cleric spot if there are a bunch of WF in the raid...
Cleric? The Shroud requires a cleric?

sirgog
04-29-2008, 12:41 AM
Don't know what servers you are on, on Khyber I almost always see group leaders pull Sorc and Wis off the LFM list after getting one (maybe 2 sometimes).

You have to get in fast, or start your own groups, or no Shroud for you.

Uska
04-29-2008, 12:57 AM
Don't know what servers you are on, on Khyber I almost always see group leaders pull Sorc and Wis off the LFM list after getting one (maybe 2 sometimes).

You have to get in fast, or start your own groups, or no Shroud for you.

I am on Khyber myself

esoitl
04-29-2008, 01:19 AM
My sorc never has trouble getting into shroud groups. Often they already have a caster so they took LF caster down but why I send a tell they let me in. Could be my caster has a good reputation for making its self useful or that they know I carry reconstuct and heal scrolls. Or the issue could be your casters reputation in the shroud. just guesses here.

i've found the same
unless the party is absolutely dying for one class they will often just fill up instead of being overly picky

depends on the leader mind you as some people are still in a poor mind set when it comes to group formation but just try sending a tell

Hvymetal
04-29-2008, 03:33 AM
LOL!!!! You should try raiding on a Rogue then, welcome to my world :D

Be thankfull it took 6 mods for it to hit you

Varis
04-29-2008, 03:54 AM
putting an optimal group together shows weakness, more so when each member of that optimal group needs "optimal" builds.

Those kinda groups wipe when the clerics die but most of all they sit there forever looking for that final perfect member...

Maelgwn
04-29-2008, 04:50 AM
This is just typical.... If i had a dollar for every time I'd heard "Fighters shield block the door, casters lay down 5 million firewalls... DON'T HIT IT, DON'T HIT IT" I'd be richer than Bill Gates. I didn't roll Melee class toons to stand in doors and do nothing.

Also I see Casters soling high level content al the time, Orchard and the Vale, or Ghosts which most people seem to like to do with 5 casters and a cleric, but i rarely see any fighters able to do that. So the Devs FINALLY add a raid in which the melee types are actually USEFUL and the casters start to whine... Come on people, get some perspective....

Tanka
04-29-2008, 06:07 AM
How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank?
As has been stated, there are already two raids very similar (if not outright copies) to this:

1) Reaver. One melee to tank, and even I've seen a Cleric decide to Blade Barrier his way around the room just to tick off the guy waving his e-peen around about his aggro generation.
2) DQ. As it stands, you need mostly Sorcs to spam CoC in the preliminary run up, then a tank or two to initially melee the queen and keep the efreeti off the casters' back during the actual fight. The Sorcs spam Firewalls, CoC and Disintegrate and she dies.

Now let's talk about quests.

Ghosts of Perdition.

Know what the smoothest, least difficult runs I've been on where?

Me (Fighter hybrid), two Clerics, a Bard and two Sorcs.

Know what I did the whole time? Helped heal the party.

Yup. Totally awesome melee quest there. :rolleyes:

CrimsonEagle
04-29-2008, 06:07 AM
This is just typical.... If i had a dollar for every time I'd heard "Fighters shield block the door, casters lay down 5 million firewalls... DON'T HIT IT, DON'T HIT IT" I'd be richer than Bill Gates. I didn't roll Melee class toons to stand in doors and do nothing.


One of the very few times I have gotten angry in this game was when someone actually yelled at me because although I was in the doorway so that no mobs could get by, I started swinging my weapon. I dont mind different playstyles though I think some of them are asinine, but do NOT yell at me. Of course....in the online enviroment, people feel empowered due to the fact that others who may take offense are not in the room with them to set them straight.

Eudimio
04-29-2008, 07:29 AM
putting an optimal group together shows weakness, more so when each member of that optimal group needs "optimal" builds.

Those kinda groups wipe when the clerics die but most of all they sit there forever looking for that final perfect member...

How wrong you are. I see a bunch of shroud LFMs that start out with 1 ranger, 1 wizard, and two sorcerors. I'm not beefin' on the ranger, but it usually turns out that way. Those LFMs linger for a half hour or so and then the group disbands. Several other groups form and fill in that time.

Average-to-good players on Khyber don't go anywhere near three-caster PUG shroud groups. So you end up with inferrior players that either wipe or cheat.

Your mileage may vary.

Yaga_Nub
04-29-2008, 07:34 AM
Cleric? The Shroud requires a cleric?

Not if you're a WF or have a high UMD :)

Hell not even if you don't.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-29-2008, 07:51 AM
My sorc never has trouble getting into shroud groups. Often they already have a caster so they took LF caster down but why I send a tell they let me in. Could be my caster has a good reputation for making its self useful or that they know I carry reconstuct and heal scrolls. Or the issue could be your casters reputation in the shroud. just guesses here.

This something i do with any class. I look closely at what they already have, and if they are not just waiting for a cleric, or in other quest's cases something they obiously need, I send a join request anyway. Works about half the time. Most people just want to get started.

Of course you could always do the unthinkable and put up your own LFM.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-29-2008, 07:59 AM
One of the very few times I have gotten angry in this game was when someone actually yelled at me because although I was in the doorway so that no mobs could get by, I started swinging my weapon. I dont mind different playstyles though I think some of them are asinine, but do NOT yell at me. Of course....in the online enviroment, people feel empowered due to the fact that others who may take offense are not in the room with them to set them straight.

It's a common belief that if you are not blocking, they will get by you. (many people also think you need a shield to do this)

I'm not sure if this is true or not. it does seem that actively blocking is more effective at preventing them from getting by you, but at the same time, I've blocked a door while I was incapped numerous times.....so I'd say definately not necessary.

But if the caster does not have agro and doing enough damage to keep it....well, then it can get ugly.

Also, it is my belief that the caster needs to be far behind the blockers (people should yell at them for that IMO). Far enough so giant creatures and Guardians do not think they cn reach out and touch them.

The STK guardian knocks people back cause he thinks the caster is in his range. The WW Ogres kill door blockers cause he's swinging at the caster.

IMO this is way more important then whether or not the Ftr is swnging his wep or not.

Kerrn_Siff
04-29-2008, 08:32 AM
I always pack at least one spare caster in my shroud raids :) Redundancy is key.

redoubt
04-29-2008, 08:35 AM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Ever been in the reaver raid? Only one tank required.

It cycles... don't take it so hard. (Oh, and I usually see 2 or 3 in each group.)

Elsbet
04-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Average-to-good players on Khyber don't go anywhere near three-caster PUG shroud groups. So you end up with inferrior players that either wipe or cheat.



I'd say this sounds like a Khyber issue and not a Shroud issue based on your and others' comments. I've seen successful Shroud runs with a variety of group configurations. I've been in runs with anywhere from one to four casters, but normally at least two. I've been in runs where most of the casters were replaced with bards. I've run it with anywhere from two to five clerics. I've been in runs with no traditional melee classes and a boatload of rangers. I've seen rogue-only runs and saw that a cleric only run is forming up on Thelanis.

I don't think I've heard of any classes that have any real difficulty getting into the Shroud on Argo. If groups don't want rogues, the rogues go by themselves.

If groups on Khyber can't run Shroud with more than one caster and overloading with melee, then perhaps they need to experiment with different tactics.

samagee
04-29-2008, 10:56 AM
Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

Cool, I love telekinsising halflings around at enemys.

Hambo
04-29-2008, 12:03 PM
Well the next mod apparently has 2 raids.

I've heard the first one will only require 1 Ranger, the rest will be Monks.

The second one can't be completed without at least 8 Halfing Barbarian Throwers.

Halflings throwing Barbarians? I LIKE this idea! :D:D:D

Thrudh
04-29-2008, 12:04 PM
Average-to-good players on Khyber don't go anywhere near three-caster PUG shroud groups.

You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

Angelus_dead
04-29-2008, 12:23 PM
You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...
Good players enjoy a challenge...
Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...
That is quite true. Good players can in fact easily manage The Shroud with an excessive number of wizards and sorcerers, and they frequently do so for reasons of generosity.

But it's also true that good players ENJOY contributing to the success of a quest. And if you're playing the 2nd or 3rd wiz/sorc, then you're not really contributing. You're slowing down part 1 because you can't hurt portals much, and you make parts 4 and 5 slower and possibly more expensive because you contribute neither DPS nor healing. On rare occasions, a mage can heal individual Warforged, but only if the party composition is right, and there's no such thing as Mass Repair Moderate anyhow.

When you're doing Reaver's Fate and 5-9 melee fighters are standing there doing nothing but waiting to loot, at least they're not taking up a slot that could've been used to make the raid more successful. Once you get 3-4 good characters in a Reaver raid, success is assured and other players helping would add only a miniscule improvement (if any). But The Shroud is not the kind of quest where 75% of the team can sit back and do nothing. It goes better the more players are helping- and mages are less able to help than other classes.

CSFurious
04-29-2008, 12:27 PM
it could be argued that a "good" player knows what works, has a limited amount of time in which to complete the quest, & just wants to get it done as efficiently as possible

some "good" players do not want a challenge, i.e., they are running the shroud for the 30th time for a few last ingredients & they only have 2 hours to play because their wife is coming home, the kids need to be picked up, there is an exam to study for, etc.

i play on Khyber & sometimes we just want the loot as fast as possible

this subject like the rest of the world is grey, not black or white

to the OP: you do not need more than 2 casters in a shroud group (does not include bards); if you gave me a choice between taking 3 sorcerors into the shroud or 1 wizard & 2 bards, i am taking the latter


You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

Elsbet
04-29-2008, 12:34 PM
to the OP: you do not need more than 2 casters in a shroud group (does not include bards); if you gave me a choice between taking 3 sorcerors into the shroud or 1 wizard & 2 bards, i am taking the latter

You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.

CSFurious
04-29-2008, 12:39 PM
just because 12 clerics or 12 rogues can adventure in the shroud does not mean that it is either efficient or a good idea

i do not think that you can reasonably debate that an all-rogue shroud run is less efficient than the typical shroud group (i will not define it, it just does not consist of 12 rogues)

anyway, i will keep getting my loot as quickly & efficiently as possible which means limiting the number of casters & rogues in the group

i am actually pretty liberal because i play a rogue, & therefore understand rogue discrimination, i would let 2 rogues come along if they were well-played

i want 1 wizard & 2 bards instead of 3 sorcerors because it is the smarter decision & actually for an experienced player, a no-brainer


You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2008, 12:41 PM
You don't need multiples of any class or even any class in particular. You want one wizard and two bards. It's a matter of preference and what makes a quest easier for you. Again, if a group of all rogues or all clerics can run the Shroud, then a lot of classes aren't truly necessary.
It's not a question of classes, it's a question of what roles are necessary.

To do Shroud well, you need multiple characters in the damage role and multiple in the healer role, but only one in the mage role to CC devils, disintegrate crystals, and maybe debuff the Pit Fiend. One good mage is perfectly capable of handling all your mage needs, and additional mages don't help.

You also need one character in the "songs plz" role, which can only be a single class. But adding extra bards at least gets you someone who can also hit the boss with weapons, or who is assured to have the UMD to help heal (which a sorcerer might or might not have)

Angelus_dead
04-29-2008, 12:43 PM
i do not think that you can reasonably debate that an all-rogue shroud run is less efficient than the typical shroud group (i will not define it, it just does not consist of 12 rogues)

anyway, i will keep getting my loot as quickly & efficiently as possible which means limiting the number of casters & rogues in the group
Since when does limiting rogues help at all? A rogue is more helpful that a fighter! They do more DPS and take less damage.

moorewr
04-29-2008, 12:45 PM
You know, this is used all the time, and it ahem, *uses* an aspect of the AI that prevents proper pathing. In its essentials it's not that different from the (not be named or described here) business with the Pit Fiend that got us our last server hot fix.

This is not to say shield blocking in a door is an exploit. Clearly it is not. Just as clearly the AI could be better about pathing, much better.

I make a distinction though, for people who scream at other players for wanting to fight in the doorway. Those folks are focused on the weakness in the AI, and not on the valid tactic of a good defensive position.

Anyway, screaming at folks about a game ain't ever cool.


It's a common belief that if you are not blocking, they will get by you. (many people also think you need a shield to do this)

I'm not sure if this is true or not. it does seem that actively blocking is more effective at preventing them from getting by you, but at the same time, I've blocked a door while I was incapped numerous times.....so I'd say definately not necessary.

But if the caster does not have agro and doing enough damage to keep it....well, then it can get ugly.

Also, it is my belief that the caster needs to be far behind the blockers (people should yell at them for that IMO). Far enough so giant creatures and Guardians do not think they cn reach out and touch them.

The STK guardian knocks people back cause he thinks the caster is in his range. The WW Ogres kill door blockers cause he's swinging at the caster.

IMO this is way more important then whether or not the Ftr is swnging his wep or not.

CSFurious
04-29-2008, 12:49 PM
unless they are dwarves or multi-class rogues, i do not think that you want more than 2 because in part 4, i think most clerics are going to want to heal melees with at least 300 hitpoints & that is sort of low (i am not talking to super-rogues who with 200 hitpoints melee the pit-fiend; they apparently exist, but will probably not be in your typical pug)

pug rogues are a motley crew IMO & i assume nothing until i see them in action

i agree though that fighters are currently pretty gimp & that i would take rogues, rangers & barbarians instead


Since when does limiting rogues help at all? A rogue is more helpful that a fighter! They do more DPS and take less damage.

Eudimio
04-29-2008, 02:23 PM
You can't be considered "good" if you can only complete a quest or a raid with an optimal party...

Good players enjoy a challenge...

Let me rephrase that... Good players can HANDLE a challenge...

Actually, your first sentence fragment is my definition of a good/average player.

Your second sentence fragment is silly. There are many good players that don't enjoy a challenge and instead like the efficiency of a well-led raid.

Your last sentence fragment is moot. A single good player with a bunch of poor players will likely fail raids.

My original point was that Shroud PUG LFMs that start off with three casters out of four positions are going to get a disproportionate amount of poor players.

Happy Hunting.

Boldrin
04-29-2008, 02:27 PM
Hate to say it, but even with it's quirks it's by far the most enjoyable raid in the game. Guess it serves casters right for soloing everything.

RyanWade
04-29-2008, 03:04 PM
You mean a raid like the Reaver? :rolleyes:

Thank You!
That's excatlly what I thought as soon as I read the 1st post.
Prior to the loot table change to promote elite runs, I would never have more than 1 Tank in the Reaver. It would typically be 1 or 2 casters, 1 cleric, and 1 tank.

Uska
04-30-2008, 01:55 AM
I'd say this sounds like a Khyber issue and not a Shroud issue based on your and others' comments. I've seen successful Shroud runs with a variety of group configurations. I've been in runs with anywhere from one to four casters, but normally at least two. I've been in runs where most of the casters were replaced with bards. I've run it with anywhere from two to five clerics. I've been in runs with no traditional melee classes and a boatload of rangers. I've seen rogue-only runs and saw that a cleric only run is forming up on Thelanis.

I don't think I've heard of any classes that have any real difficulty getting into the Shroud on Argo. If groups don't want rogues, the rogues go by themselves.

If groups on Khyber can't run Shroud with more than one caster and overloading with melee, then perhaps they need to experiment with different tactics.

Its not a Khyber issue been in the shroud with at least 3 casters(might have been more) and was very successful I think we only had one guy end up in the penalty box and that was because of a minor lag spike that got him killed before the clerics could heal him

Elsbet
04-30-2008, 07:24 AM
It's not a question of classes, it's a question of what roles are necessary.

To do Shroud well, I want multiple characters in the damage role and multiple in the healer role, but only one in the mage role to CC devils, disintegrate crystals, and maybe debuff the Pit Fiend. In my opinion, one good mage is perfectly capable of handling all your mage needs, and additional mages don't help.

I also want one character in the "songs plz" role, which can only be a single class. But adding extra bards at least gets you someone who can also hit the boss with weapons, or who is assured to have the UMD to help heal (which a sorcerer might or might not have)

Fixed it for you.

Again, this is not a need. It is a want. If the raid can be run without a class, then that class isn't necessary.

I've been in groups like you want with the "optimal" mix of classes and frankly, they fail more often than they succeed because they lack versatility. The options to handle something unforseen are far fewer. Last night, mobs were spawning from the portals on normal faster than I've sen them spawn on elite. Without multiple casters, it would have been much harder to handle than it was.

Multiple casters makes part 2 much easier depending on what you draw for mobs. I believe at least two is far closer to optimal. Multiple mages in part one means that one can roam and one can stay with the portal group, ensuring that your insta-kill ability is not spread too thin, though this can be done by clerics since there is little healing to be done in part 1. In part 2, their crowd control and damage spells are very helpful.

As much as I love my bard, she's not necessary to run shroud. It's nice if the casters can save mana by not having to cast dance balls, but not required. If it gets to the point where we're depending on her for healing, we're hosed. All she carries is the cure serious spell and some wands/scrolls to self-heal between fights. If all she's wanted for is songs, I'll pass on the group. That's boring.

My cleric does as much damage to the pit fiend with one cheap, unempowered searing light as any melee with a transmuting weapon. I find that one-two traditional melees is sufficient in a party stocked with decent rangers.

With decent players, no class is "necessary." UMD rogues heal just fine. I'll take Brenna, Rameses and Kiranselie (all rogues) over tanks any day and twice on Sundays. There are people who run casters and rangers in the same category. I'd rather have those players on whatever toon they want to play because they are good than I would anyone else in a specific class.

I was told repeatedly before I entered the Shroud the first time that the "optimal" group was four clerics, four evasion melees, two rangers and two casters. I think I've seen that work twice. A successful raid in the shroud or anywhere else depends on the players, not the classes.

drachine
04-30-2008, 10:06 AM
oh please. you want discrimination? try playin a rogue and getting more then one, IF ANY, into a Shroud run.

give me a break.

Angelus_dead
04-30-2008, 10:08 AM
Fixed it for you.
No, it's not just my opinion. Within the qualifier of "If you want to do well in the Shroud", those roles are needed. If you don't have people inflicting damage with weapons, you are going to take more time, risk, and expense than otherwise. Likewise if you do not have a bard to buff their weapon damage, you are going to do worse than you could.

It's "not needed" only in the sense that you don't need to do well.


I've been in groups like you want with the "optimal" mix of classes and frankly, they fail more often than they succeed because they lack versatility. The options to handle something unforseen are far fewer. Last night, mobs were spawning from the portals on normal faster than I've sen them spawn on elite. Without multiple casters, it would have been much harder to handle than it was.
Lol. Probably they were spawning because you had the multiple casters, and someone was "handling" them with a Suggestion spell.


My cleric does as much damage to the pit fiend with one cheap, unempowered searing light as any melee with a transmuting weapon.
That's just hilariously wrong. Searing Light isn't "cheap", and it doesn't do close to useful damage on Arraetrikos. Without metamagic it does 45 damage, which is less than a buffed fighter does with one swing (of a small weapon). Then while Searing Light is on the 3 second cooldown the fighter is swinging again, and again, and again...

If a cleric wants to blow spellpoints on directly-damaging Arraetrikos, at least use something more economical like Holy Smite, which gets 3 hp/sp instead of the 2.2 hp/sp from Searing Light. Or cast Harm for 4 hp/sp.


I find that one-two traditional melees is sufficient in a party stocked with decent rangers.
Rangers fill the role of "inflict damage with weapons".


With decent players, no class is "necessary." UMD rogues heal just fine. I'll take Brenna, Rameses and Kiranselie (all rogues) over tanks any day and twice on Sundays.
If they're build and equipped right, rogues ARE tanks. And they absolutely have the ability to do weapon damage.

Ikuryo
04-30-2008, 12:57 PM
I'm not entirely sure why rogues are not really wanted in the shroud. For part 4 they just need a ranged weapon, stand close enough to get sneak attack dmg but not be hit by him and fill him full of arrows or bolts. With evasion and improved evasion they can mostly ignore his meteor swarm and delayed fireballs so they don't need much in the way of healing. The blades would be the only thing I would watch out for and they can be seen and avoided. Its true that they don't have many hps but that just means they can be doing ranged dmg with the rangers.

It will be interesting after mod7 to see how they do in there. With the right enhancements they are going to get some nice bonus dmg on the portals.

Oh and the fastest group I've seen blow through the Shroud was an 11 ranger 1 bard group. The portal popped almost instantly and nothing in part 2 or 4 survived long.

Gunga
04-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Eyeroll.

Mindspat
04-30-2008, 03:55 PM
Is it the developers intentions to make a raid that only requires one caster in it for the raid to be optimal? How would tanks feel if the developers made a raid where you only needed one tank? In the end game the only thing to do is to get your raids in but if you can't get your shroud runs in as a caster because every raid only wants one it severely detracts the enjoyment of the game.

Sarcasm?

Zartuul
04-30-2008, 05:12 PM
Don't know what servers you are on, on Khyber I almost always see group leaders pull Sorc and Wis off the LFM list after getting one (maybe 2 sometimes).

You have to get in fast, or start your own groups, or no Shroud for you.

Yes, I am on Khyber. That is exactly what I see. One caster maybe 2 then no more for shroud runs.

Zartuul
04-30-2008, 05:31 PM
oh please. you want discrimination? try playin a rogue and getting more then one, IF ANY, into a Shroud run.

give me a break.

I've got an amazing idea. How about starting a thread about Rogue issues with raid groups and staying out of this one? Just because Rogues have the same issue and not wanting more then one if any at all does not make other classes issues mute.

Tyrande
04-30-2008, 05:38 PM
Yes, I am on Khyber. That is exactly what I see. One caster maybe 2 then no more for shroud runs.

Perhaps this is more of an issue on Khyber.

I think a few arcane casters on Khyber may be perceived as not specialized in spell penetration and the leaders
in powers that might be viewed that as a weakness. Also, if the shroud runs were done higher than normal difficulty,
low spell penetration might be a problem. The developers have also increase the SR on monsters in the shroud for elite to an
astounding level.

I have updated them on the Bug Hunting Lodge forums.

Also, I do not believe you can craft spell penetration green steel items. If this were implemented, this might be less of an issue.
Recent nerfs to the arcane casters, I guess :( They include but not limited to the following:

1) Monster AI update for path-ing and aggression to arcane casters.
2) Temple of the Vol shadows "immune" to fire.
3) Increased SR on elite difficulty for monsters with spell resistance.

Rameses
04-30-2008, 05:43 PM
When forming a shroud run I'll reserve a spot for 3 clerics and 3 DPS; after that I'll take the first five to apply to the party. As I am filling a Rogues/Healer role.

I am, Rameses!