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View Full Version : Suggestion - Implementing Wish/Miracle



sirgog
04-28-2008, 02:53 AM
With level 18 probably only 4-6 months away, here's a couple of idea for how to implement the most powerful of all spells, Wish and Miracle. Firstly note that in pen and paper, these spells are designed as extreme emergency buttons - they cost 5000XP to cast, which is a quarter of a level. However, they allow for incredible power and flexibility - allowing the mimicking of almost any other spell, as well as several other abilities.


To capture the true cost of casting these spells, I recommend a three-hour cooldown time. XP costs do not translate well into DDO (as they are meaningless when at the level cap, but make the spell nearly useless until then). The XP cost in pen and paper serves to make the Wish/Miracle spells only used in an emergency - and IMO the best translation to DDO is an absurdly long cooldown. Secondly, I also recommend a rare material component that cannot be purchased from any vendor, similar to the Khyber Dragonshards of Trap the Soul - perhaps this could be a new use of Siberys Dragonshards, which would explain why Fred has been hoarding them for months.


As far as the effect of the spell goes, I'd base it largely on the Wish birthday cakes - the spell summons a Djinni (Wish), or an outsider relevant to your alignment (Miracle), which you then talk to complete the use of the spell. I recommend two versions of the spell - one allowing only you to talk to the Djinni/outsider, as per the Birthday Cake, and one which allows anyone in your party to talk to them (the reason for this will be apparent later). I would recommend the following options:

1) A chance to rest - conjures a short-lasting Rest shrine which exists for 60 seconds.
2) A chance to recover from disaster - teleports all willing party members to you, raises them all from the dead, removes all debuffs and restores them to full health as though Unyielding Sovereignty was cast on them
3) Battle readiness - casts Greater Heroism, Haste, Aid and Resist Energy: All on all allies within a haste radius
4) Smite my foes - casts one (randomly chosen) of Destruction, Energy Drain (9th level Enervation variant), Flesh to Stone, or a 1000 damage, no-save Disintegrate on each foe within 200ft. Against red/purple nameds, the Disintegrate always occurs. (This mimics the ability of Wish to copy a damage spell in pen and paper - it's more powerful as the foes we fight are also more powerful).
5) Personal prowess - grants an inherent +1 bonus to the ability score of your choice (unlike pen and paper, wishes should not be able to be 'chained' together to grant bonuses over +1 - this will ensure +2 and better tomes remain good throughout the whole game). This is why others should be allowed to speak to your Djinni - you can grant them this wish that way.
And, of course, 6) Treasure - creates a localised rain of tasty hams. Because we all want to see this done more often :D

Nevthial
04-28-2008, 03:05 AM
I hope it allows emulation of spells as it does in PnP. ( Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger spells )

They could increase the xp cost to around 15000-20000 for usage as this would approximate our scaling of xp in DDO.

( It is very viable for a Wiz/Sor of those levels to use one Wish per encounter and still gain some xp in PnP, as a single difficult encounter may be worth 10000+ points. This is assuming one hard PnP encounter = one DDO level appropriate quest.)

GlassCannon
04-28-2008, 03:10 AM
This is assuming one hard PnP encounter = one DDO level appropriate quest.

Sorry for taking it out of context.

One hard PnP encounter is similar to 4-10 minutes of DDO time. In the situations Wish would be needed, the developers would likely make the quest 5 hours long and nigh impossible for capped characters with the very best gear possible. They seem to have that habit.

Nevthial
04-28-2008, 03:16 AM
Sorry for taking it out of context.

One hard PnP encounter is similar to 4-10 minutes of DDO time. In the situations Wish would be needed, the developers would likely make the quest 5 hours long and nigh impossible for capped characters with the very best gear possible. They seem to have that habit.

Yeah, they do at that! It'll prob be used for ye olde Rest/Rez shrine if they implement it that way more often than not. :)

sirgog
04-28-2008, 03:20 AM
I hope it allows emulation of spells as it does in PnP. ( Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger spells )

They could increase the xp cost to around 15000-20000 for usage as this would approximate our scaling of xp in DDO.

( It is very viable for a Wiz/Sor of those levels to use one Wish per encounter and still gain some xp in PnP, as a single difficult encounter may be worth 10000+ points. This is assuming one hard PnP encounter = one DDO level appropriate quest.)

Full emulation of spells would be incredibly tough to code, as every new spell that was subsequently brought into the game would require a recoding of Wish. Also, it would take a long time to select a spell from the list, which wouldn't work in the fast-paced combat of DDO. That's why I tried to pick a few representative things that you might want to do with Wish, allowing the quite powerful 'smite my enemies' option to replace all offensive spells in the spell list.

Also, regardless of the cost, XP costs simply would not work as a balancing factor in DDO, due to the existence of a level cap. A long cooldown captures the spirit of this requirement as stated in my first post.

Angelus_dead
04-28-2008, 09:18 AM
To capture the true cost of casting these spells, I recommend a three-hour cooldown time. XP costs do not translate well into DDO (as they are meaningless when at the level cap, but make the spell nearly useless until then).
Three-hour cooldowns would be a bad idea for DDO. The 10-minute cooldowns of certain existing cleric powers are about as far as cooldown can be pushed as a balance mechanic.

First, three hours is an eternity in DDO, if your group isn't waiting around AFK while trying to decide which quest to do next. In 3 hours I'd easily do every non-Abbot raid in the game. Yet to have only one Wish during all that time? It couldn't be worth it.

The only way a spell with a 3-hour cooldown could be remotely balanced is if the spell effect were absurdly insanely powerful. It would have to be strong enough to completely beat all nearby monsters/obstacles with total reliability. And that sort of feature is bad for gameplay... it means that certain hard encounters of the game will never be played as they were intended. They will either be completely ignored and nobody even tries, or they will be obliterated with Wish, once per 3 hours.


As far as the effect of the spell goes, I'd base it largely on the Wish birthday cakes - the spell summons a Djinni (Wish), or an outsider relevant to your alignment (Miracle), which you then talk to complete the use of the spell.
That would be a really bad way to do it. It means imposing another HUGE delay on the spell. Not only does it have a 3 hour cooldown, but also at least 20 seconds of standing there talking to an NPC to cast it. Your ability to use it in a real emergency would be almost nil. It would be a downtime-only spell.


As you've probably noticed, the existing Wish cakes are wor I recommend two versions of the spell - one allowing only you to talk to the Djinni/outsider, as per the Birthday Cake, and one which allows anyone in your party to talk to them
As you may have noticed if you've tried the wish cakes, the only real use for them is to spawn an extra shrine if you need to recover sp and rages.


1) A chance to rest - conjures a short-lasting Rest shrine which exists for 60 seconds.
The D&D wish spell specifically cannot allow that ability. Recharging spells-per-day is beyond the ability of Wish, unless it does so by means of teleporting/plane shifting you to someplace where you can rest safely. And if Teleporting were enough to let you rest, then the level 5 Teleport spell could have that feature.



2) A chance to recover from disaster - teleports all willing party members to you, raises them all from the dead, removes all debuffs and restores them to full health as though Unyielding Sovereignty was cast on them
The problem with all the other options is they do not even approximate the core fuction of Wish in D&D: to emulate any single spell of a lower level.

Angelus_dead
04-28-2008, 09:31 AM
Following is a repost of my suggestion for adding a Wish spell to DDO. Note that this suggestion was for Limited Wish, and a Wish version would need moderately improved power. This spell is based very directly on the capabilities of the D&D spell description, with a modification to account for the relative ease of obtaining Raise Dead effects. Naturally, if DDO were going to skip Limited Wish and go straight up to Wish, the spells effect's would all need to be boosted in power. The damage would increase, and spells like FOM/DW would be replaced with Mass versions, etc.

Limited Wish
Sor/wiz 7

In addition to the spellpoint cost, a wizard may cast Limited Wish only limited times per rest. You may use it 1 time + 1 per caster level above 13. Sorcerers may use it 50% more often (round up). The Extra Wish enhancement line can give you +1,+2,+3 uses at a cost of 1,2,3 AP. The use is not expended if the Limited Wish fails to cast for some reason (such as failing a concentration check, or a blocked or missing target)

Casting Limited Wish opens a menu allowing you to pick one of the following effects:
Limited Wish Restore: Combines effects of Greater Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, Stone To Flesh, and Remove Disease. It clears any fear or poison effects. It also removes things such as Feeblemind, Dominated, Crushing Despair, and Irresistible Dance. If targeted on a dead player, it instead acts as Raise Dead, but has no other effect.

Limited Wish Cure: Heals 6d6+40 damage to any kind of target (living, construct, or undead). If targeted on a dead player, it instead acts as Raise Dead, but has no other effect. If no target is selected, heals 2d6+10 to all nearby allies.

Limited Wish Damage: Inflicts 2d6/level untyped damage to a single target, Fortitude half. If no target is selected, inflicts 1d8/level untyped damage to enemies in a wide cone, Reflex half.

Limited Wish Curse: For 12 seconds, a single enemy takes a -7 penalty to saves and SR. The SR penalty applies first, and SR cannot defend against it. The saves penalty attaches next, and the target's SR might block it as usual.

Limited Wish Protect: For 30 seconds, grant a single target Deathward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Greater Heroism, and Protection from Energy (all five), all at your caster level.

Limited Wish Defend: Another menu opens, allowing you to choose one of the following 6 spells to cast on a single target, all at your caster level.
Spell Resistance
Deathward
Freedom of Movement
Barkskin
Stoneskin
Greater Heroism

In addition to the above uses, a character who has Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle available who is interacting with an NPC or object might sometimes display a special choice labeled with [Wish]. Selecting that choice deducts one use of Wish, but also causes a quest-specific beneficial effect. For example, a quest might contain a smashed bridge. Clicking it and picking a Wish option could magically repair it to wholeness, allowing your party an easier route.

Design option 1: There are many more spells that a character might desire to cast. I was working on the assumption it is hard for Turbine to exceed 6 items in one menu. If they can fix that limitation, many more spell options could be easily added.

Design option 2: Instead of recovering all Limited Wish uses by resting, only 1 or 2 charges might come back at each shrine. This would still allow a character to cast a couple wishes in a real emergency, but would prevent him from using them to repeat a nice buff every single time he rests.