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Eldamyr
04-21-2008, 06:11 PM
Recently, I was part of a Stormcleave group who was lacking a Rogue. My PC was multiclassed with 5 levels of Wizard so I memorized Knock for the locked chests. I unlocked the first locked chest with a roll of 19 + caster level. We come to the second chest and I cast knock once again. I spent my entire spell point bar trying to roll another 19 to open the chest. Now in PnP the Kock spell is supposed to "open stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold closures shut)."

I am of the opinion that knock should be changed to instant open instead of requiring a D20 Roll + caster level. Requiring this roll hurts multiclass casters characters aswell as goes against the original spell. If changing the spell is not an option, then a second possibility is to add practiced spellcaster to the feat list. This feat could affect the casters effective caster level by 4 when it comes to the check for Knock.

I do realize that some may see this is hurting rogues, but a party can not always rely on a perfect party make up. Just like other classes, a rogue may not always be available. Clerics are not always available. Wizards are not always available. Sorcerers are not always available. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have. So this suggested change is not to hurt once class but to help everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Time to enjoy the rest of the beautiful day.

captain1z
04-21-2008, 07:05 PM
Im not keen on making knock an easy button for locked chests. You may end up with rogues with 1 level of wizard, who mem knock,jump or shield. actually you colud do this with any class and get the same results.

I hear ya not always is every class available.

Maybe make it so it works on any lock within 2 levels of your caster level

MysticTheurge
04-21-2008, 07:20 PM
The D&D version of knock is incompatible with DDO's spellcasting, quest and grouping systems.

The D&D version of knock works because you're required to fill a certain number of slots with it in advance, and you don't know how many times you're going to need it.

In DDO, neither of those things is true. Not only would you only need to "waste" one spell slot on it and then have near-unlimited lock-opening capabilities, but you also know in advance whether or not you even need to waste that one slot on it, since you'll know whether there are even pick-able locks in the quest you're going on.

On top of that, D&D works with a static party. Your rogue isn't ever going to not be invited along because there's no traps, just a few locks and the wizard has knock. But in DDO, parties are far more dynamic. When you make knock a perfect lock-opener, you reduce the perceived role of rogues in the party for many quests, meaning fewer group leaders will invite or accept rogues into a party when they know that can perfectly open all the locks with just a simple knock spell.

(I'm also ignoring the fact that you wouldn't even really need to waste a spell slot and spell points on the spell because wands of knock would also be perfect lock-openers, since I have to assume that they'd remove wands and scrolls of knock from vendors if they actually made this change. Even so, find a wand or two of knock in a chest, and you'd be set.)

JFeenstra
04-21-2008, 07:56 PM
Im not keen on making knock an easy button for locked chests. You may end up with rogues with 1 level of wizard, who mem knock,jump or shield. actually you colud do this with any class and get the same results.

I hear ya not always is every class available.

Maybe make it so it works on any lock within 2 levels of your caster levelthey'd have to take 3 levels of wiz, but if knock worked that way they could just buy X knock wands/scrolls and UMD them without wasting levels in the class

Nevthial
04-21-2008, 08:16 PM
On top of that, D&D works with a static party. Your rogue isn't ever going to not be invited along because there's no traps, just a few locks and the wizard has knock. But in DDO, parties are far more dynamic. When you make knock a perfect lock-opener, you reduce the perceived role of rogues in the party for many quests, meaning fewer group leaders will invite or accept rogues into a party when they know that can perfectly open all the locks with just a simple knock spell.

Captain, MT an JF hit it on the head:

It would seriously hurt the game if there were more reasons for Rogues to be discriminated against.

DNDJESS
04-21-2008, 08:25 PM
I don't recall any quests where knock or unlock are required to complete the quest. Unlock/knock is always for optional exp, and more often than not, extra treasure. Now you're asking that this extra treasure be given to you 100% of the time just for memorizing the correct spell?

The only change I could possibly see happening would be changing the DC check to your total character level instead of just your Wizard level (if that's not how it works already). And an argument could be made against that as well. DDO seems to do a lot to promote pure classes and discourage multiclassing. I wouldn't expect them to do much to improve multiclassed characters at this point.

dameron
04-21-2008, 08:25 PM
The D&D version of knock is incompatible with DDO's spellcasting, quest and grouping systems.

The D&D version of knock works because you're required to fill a certain number of slots with it in advance, and you don't know how many times you're going to need it.


Or you could spend a couple of days a month using your automatic "Scribe Scroll" feat to create a cheap store of Knock scrolls to take on adventures.

I'm all for giving arcanes back their Knock spell as long as they restore Rogues to their proper place by, maybe, fixing stealth and implementing WotAII in a useful manner.

JFeenstra
04-21-2008, 08:26 PM
I don't recall any quests where knock or unlock are required to complete the quest. Unlock/knock is always for optional exp, and more often than not, extra treasure. Now you're asking that this extra treasure be given to you 100% of the time just for memorizing the correct spell?

The only change I could possibly see happening would be changing the DC check to your total character level instead of just your Wizard level (if that's not how it works already). And an argument could be made against that as well. DDO seems to do a lot to promote pure classes and discourage multiclassing. I wouldn't expect them to do much to improve multiclassed characters at this point.
VoN 5 requires knock or unlock

there's a couple other quests as well

shroud part 3 doesn't require it, but it's pretty necessary to have at least one person who can open doors if you want all 4 chests

Hambo
04-21-2008, 08:40 PM
VoN 5 requires knock or unlock

there's a couple other quests as well

shroud part 3 doesn't require it, but it's pretty necessary to have at least one person who can open doors if you want all 4 chests

Real easy solution... Have a Rogue in your party. As to the "availablity" of Rogues for higher level quests and raids being an issue: Don't make me laugh. I have 5 rogues, levels 6,7,13,15 and 16 and very seldom have seen raids actually looking for a rogue. In fact some groups seem to think a rogue is a waste of space.

/not signed on OP's idea.

Eldamyr
04-21-2008, 09:07 PM
I am always glad to see good discussion. I agree with MT that not all of PnP can translate to an MMO. That seems to be the root of some of the problems we face when playing the game. Fortuneatly those problems aren't so bad as to make us vacate like rats from a sinking ship. It is a possibility that changing knock will hurt rogues. However, there are more than just Rogues for class offerings. And while some may think there are millions of unemployed Rogues constantly looking for work, it's a bit of a curved perspective. You can not always get the class that you need for what ever reason. I have been in some parties that made it threw a quest without the "ideal" make up.

If making knock like per PnP would rustle to many emotional feathers, then option two could be a good choice. The Practiced Spell Caster Feat could be beneficial to many caster multiclases. Knock would still require the check when cast but would at least get a minor boost. Plus it is another decent PnP feat to choose from.

dameron
04-21-2008, 09:13 PM
Real easy solution... Have a Rogue in your party. .

Or a wizard, traditionally.

They've grossly fetishized opening locks, as they have many rogue abilities, apparently because they didn't want to or couldn't scale a rogue's melee effectiveness to their content.

Maybe they're changing that, we'll see. If they do then they can stop this whole rogue skill nonsense and get them back in the fight, where they belong.

FluffyCalico
04-21-2008, 09:28 PM
knock is working correctly.

JFeenstra
04-21-2008, 11:09 PM
Real easy solution... Have a Rogue in your party. As to the "availablity" of Rogues for higher level quests and raids being an issue: Don't make me laugh. I have 5 rogues, levels 6,7,13,15 and 16 and very seldom have seen raids actually looking for a rogue. In fact some groups seem to think a rogue is a waste of space.

/not signed on OP's idea.the thing is, for 95% of the content, 1-2 levels of rogue is equal to 16 levels of rogue as far as traps and locks go, especially if it's a high skill point cross class (ranger, bard, wizard)

Lorien_the_First_One
04-21-2008, 11:23 PM
As per PnP rules, Knock is supposed to be an auto-open. No roll. It should even open magic and complex locks beyond the best rogue. Heck, it should even open welded metal.

It should be fixed.

Solmage
04-21-2008, 11:25 PM
I'd like to offer the following compromise:

- Allow knock to be affected by heighten (currently it's not), so it scales better.

- Make a natural 20 an automatic success.

This way if you didn't find a rogue who wanted to run the quest you wanted to run, you have the (potentially very expensive) option of spending all your mana on the lock, but eventually getting it open.

This doesn't trivialize rogues, but it does give you options when such are not around.

MysticTheurge
04-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Or you could spend a couple of days a month using your automatic "Scribe Scroll" feat to create a cheap store of Knock scrolls to take on adventures.

Except in D&D, crafting items costs real, significant resources.

So even choosing to do this, you're giving up something else you could be having instead.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2008, 08:05 AM
knock is working correctly.

lol and you base that on what? It's not working as per D&D rules, which was the OP's point.

Yvonne_Blacksword
04-22-2008, 09:23 AM
um...in PnP... if something was locked and you had no rogue and no knock spell...

well,
...there were alternatives.

Removing doors from their hinges would be a rolled event.

Bashing open chests (sure there might be some damage to self, gear, things in the chest.)

Or using a crow/pry bar to convince a chest to open.

As I remember it, only wizard locked, magical locks needed professionals.

Or a case where stealth and being covert was necessary.

Is it just to keep us from getting loot? This seems a petty reason to block a determined, knowledgeable, prepared party from reaching an objective...Just because they cannot figure out how to get through a door/open a chest/pop-a-loc.

What if the role playing rogue from PnP decided to NOT open the chest...

and come back and loot it when no one was looking?

We would bash the chest open and loot it.
End of problem.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-22-2008, 10:06 AM
I think items that boost open locks skill should work with knock. And skill boosts too.

Gray_Hawk
04-22-2008, 10:10 AM
I don't recall any quests where knock or unlock are required to complete the quest. Unlock/knock is always for optional exp, and more often than not, extra treasure. Now you're asking that this extra treasure be given to you 100% of the time just for memorizing the correct spell?

The only change I could possibly see happening would be changing the DC check to your total character level instead of just your Wizard level (if that's not how it works already). And an argument could be made against that as well. DDO seems to do a lot to promote pure classes and discourage multiclassing. I wouldn't expect them to do much to improve multiclassed characters at this point.

Hmm Von?

dameron
04-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Except in D&D, crafting items costs real, significant resources.

So even choosing to do this, you're giving up something else you could be having instead.

Crafting items can cost real, significant resources, however crafting a 2nd level spell scroll at caster level 3 doesn't for any mid to high level caster.

Knock scrolls = 2 × 3 × 25 = 125/2 = 64 gp and 5 xp

Cheap and easy. Every wizard with Knock in their spellbook can create them for a pittance.

I wouldn't blink an eye if a 16th level wizard had a ready supply of knock scrolls, say 3-5 per adventure. Why wouldn't they, barring carrying even better magic (Passwall and such)?

DelScorcho
04-22-2008, 01:13 PM
Just skip the chests. The real treasure of Stormcleave is the xp. The more chests you open, the more bad loot you have clogging up your inventory spots. Just zerge it real quick a few times, and in a few days, when you are level 14, you may loot something decent. :D

MysticTheurge
04-22-2008, 01:32 PM
Crafting items can cost real, significant resources, however crafting a 2nd level spell scroll at caster level 3 doesn't for any mid to high level caster.

Knock scrolls = 2 × 3 × 25 = 125/2 = 64 gp and 5 xp

Cheap and easy. Every wizard with Knock in their spellbook can create them for a pittance.

I wouldn't blink an eye if a 16th level wizard had a ready supply of knock scrolls, say 3-5 per adventure. Why wouldn't they, barring carrying even better magic (Passwall and such)?

Yeah but even 180 to 320 gps is a few more cure potions you don't have. Resources matter in D&D in a way that they don't in DDO.

dameron
04-22-2008, 01:43 PM
Yeah but even 180 to 320 gps is a few more cure potions you don't have. Resources matter in D&D in a way that they don't in DDO.

Yes, but I think you're greatly overstating it. Knock is a low level spell and particularly cheap.

Besides, carrying "Knock" would likely pay for itself in PnP if you consider one of its most common uses is to access other people's loot.

ahpook
04-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Knock could use some work. There are too many times where knock will never work with no way to get your DC up.

You can up the DC of the spell (or make it so it always works) and then restrict by requiring a costly non-stacking spell component to simulate the spell slot issue of using it in PnP.

No mage is ever going to carry more than a few of them. Heck, make the components have "skill values" and charge 100gp * skill value (with min levels for using them). Want to pick that DC 40 lock, you will have to carry a 40 skill (or better) component which cost 4000 gp. Now wiz's and sorcerers can knock any lock but it might not be worth it for them both in cost and inventory space.

Hvymetal
04-23-2008, 05:16 AM
Real easy solution... Have a Rogue in your party. As to the "availablity" of Rogues for higher level quests and raids being an issue: Don't make me laugh. I have 5 rogues, levels 6,7,13,15 and 16 and very seldom have seen raids actually looking for a rogue. In fact some groups seem to think a rogue is a waste of space.

/not signed on OP's idea.

QFT

I play several Rogues, you would be suprised at how many parties already don't want Rogues as it is folks, menwhile you hardly ever see a party without arcane casters with no arcane casters up in the LFM such is not often the case with Rogues.....