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FluffyCalico
04-17-2008, 02:52 AM
Now that I am running the vale on my cleric I don't really want cure light wounds. Can any of you long time clerics tell me how to get rid of this spell. LOL I know, I know, drag it out of the known spells. It gives an error and says you can't unlearn it.

skraus1
04-17-2008, 02:55 AM
Now that I am running the vale on my cleric I don't really want cure light wounds. Can any of you long time clerics tell me how to get rid of this spell. LOL I know, I know, drag it out of the known spells. It gives an error and says you can't unlearn it.

Can't be done as it represents spontaneous casting of heal spells. You're stuck with it

samho
04-17-2008, 02:57 AM
Tip #90

FluffyCalico
04-17-2008, 03:00 AM
Can't be done as it represents spontaneous casting of heal spells. You're stuck with it

yes that is what the message says but that does not make it right. The problem is I did not take the healing domain. And while I realise they did this to try to force clerics into a healing role I want them to fix it. This is clearly not fair and needs to be addressed.

At level 12-14 there is no reason to have one of your level 1 spell slots force picked for you.

IgorUnchained
04-17-2008, 03:13 AM
yes that is what the message says but that does not make it right. The problem is I did not take the healing domain. And while I realise they did this to try to force clerics into a healing role I want them to fix it. This is clearly not fair and needs to be addressed.

At level 12-14 there is no reason to have one of your level 1 spell slots force picked for you.


You are in the Shroud already....and you say you arent a healer. I would assume that you have played the game long enough to make that call. How is the game "trying to make you a healer" and would you care to elaborate on the techniques that you used to thwart their evil plan? It sure sounds like a slippery slope!

Half the clerics I run with in PUGs seem to be the kind of clerics that dont heal. Seems to be a popular class choice.

FluffyCalico
04-17-2008, 03:17 AM
You are in the Shroud already....and you say you arent a healer. I would assume that you have played the game long enough to make that call. How is the game "trying to make you a healer" and would you care to elaborate on the techniques that you used to thwart their evil plan? It sure sounds like a slippery slope!

Half the clerics I run with in PUGs seem to be the kind of clerics that dont heal. Seems to be a popular class choice.

Lets see,
1) My cleric is a healer
2) I said I didnt choose the healing domain (no domains in this game yet)
3) How does wanting to not have a level 1 heal spell mean that I won't heal? Try keeping a barb up on the pit fiend with cure light
4) The game is trying to make you a healer by FORCING you to take a healing spell at level 1 and on and on.
5) Even as a healing cleric it ****es me off that I can't get rid of a 100% useless spell for the level I am.

IgorUnchained
04-17-2008, 03:24 AM
I hear you and I am with you.

My capped toon has cure light wounds...and is mostly Paladin. I could use my whole blue bar just to get back to 3/4 health. It is a great spell to have (especially for free for a cleric) at lower levels, but I am with you that it is pointless for anything more than getting an incapped player back into the game past level 6 or so.

I wasnt trying to say that you dont heal....I dont know you well enough to offer up that judgement. I was just saying that, IF the game was really trying to make you use a spell by giving it to you for free at the beginning....it sure didnt take long for you to bypass their manipulation. A cleric who doesnt specialize in healing zergers? I understand that. A cleric without a single heal spell? That I dont understand.

Uska
04-17-2008, 03:42 AM
yes that is what the message says but that does not make it right. The problem is I did not take the healing domain. And while I realise they did this to try to force clerics into a healing role I want them to fix it. This is clearly not fair and needs to be addressed.

At level 12-14 there is no reason to have one of your level 1 spell slots force picked for you.

Cant fix what isnt broken it represents a key ability of good and neutral clerics(all of us) to replace any spell memo'd with a healing spell. And just because you don't it means that its wrong. I take it you dont play pnp?

samho
04-17-2008, 03:44 AM
Lets see,
1) My cleric is a healer
good for you, however 5 out of 6 cleric I have are not dedicated healer.

2) I said I didnt choose the healing domain (no domains in this game yet)
There's nothing to do with Healing Domain.

3) How does wanting to not have a level 1 heal spell mean that I won't heal? Try keeping a barb up on the pit fiend with cure light
If Turbine implement it correctly and you are not Good Cleric, what you got is the option of either inflict light wound or cure light wound-- Yes, fear my power of Inflict Light Wound, Pit Fiend :p

4) The game is trying to make you a healer by FORCING you to take a healing spell at level 1 and on and on.
This game is assuming everyone select Good Alignment when pick up their cleric

5) Even as a healing cleric it ****es me off that I can't get rid of a 100% useless spell for the level I am.
Don't (spontaneous) cast it, so problem solved ? The only level 1 spell I'm using in shroud is Divine Favor and Nightshield, heck, the lowest level heal spell I'm casting is MCLW, which is level 5 cleric spell :rolleyes:



Looks like you don't realize cleric and wizard in DDO share the same spell point / spell slot system (a little bit similar with PnP) and the whole spontaneous casting thing won't change it. And you do ignore the root of problem, it's not that "Turbine" force you to use the spell slot for cure spell, it isn't -- you never own that slot, since it never count as your spell slot -- the problem is Turbine "assume" all cleric is Good Alignment cleric, it's nothing to do you are healing domain or not, and here's where it need to be address.

Uska
04-17-2008, 03:46 AM
Lets see,
1) My cleric is a healer
2) I said I didnt choose the healing domain (no domains in this game yet)
3) How does wanting to not have a level 1 heal spell mean that I won't heal? Try keeping a barb up on the pit fiend with cure light
4) The game is trying to make you a healer by FORCING you to take a healing spell at level 1 and on and on.5) Even as a healing cleric it ****es me off that I can't get rid of a 100% useless spell for the level I am.



They arent forcing its a key ability from the base game and you already can cast many times the spells a pnp cleric can just not the same number of different spells. What other first level spell do you really want thats so important anyways.

Uska
04-17-2008, 03:48 AM
Looks like you don't realize cleric and wizard in DDO share the same spell point / spell slot system (a little bit similar with PnP) and the whole spontaneous casting thing won't change it. And you do ignore the root of problem, it's not that "Turbine" force you to use the spell slot for cure spell, it isn't -- you never own that slot, since it never count as your spell slot -- the problem is Turbine "assume" all cleric is Good Alignment cleric, it's nothing to do you are healing domain or not, and here's where it need to be address.

Actually neutral clerics have the ability to chose to be able to use healing spells to replace memo'd spells as well and we are all good or neutral

samho
04-17-2008, 03:50 AM
I wasnt trying to say that you dont heal....I dont know you well enough to offer up that judgement. I was just saying that, IF the game was really trying to make you use a spell by giving it to you for free at the beginning....it sure didnt take long for you to bypass their manipulation. A cleric who doesnt specialize in healing zergers? I understand that. A cleric without a single heal spell? That I dont understand.

Death Priest, friend, we really need the option of Death Priest :p

*Back to the day where the TS is still our playing ground*

samho
04-17-2008, 03:51 AM
Actually neutral clerics have the ability to chose to be able to use healing spells to replace memo'd spells as well and we are all good or neutral

That's why I say Turbine "assume" we are all good alignment cleric, so they don't need to give us the option to "select" inflict wound or cure wound :p

Nevthial
04-17-2008, 04:00 AM
If the devs allowed a neutral cleric to choose an affinity with negative energy, then Cure spells would have to be placed into empty slots to be able to use them and Inflict spells would be the default. You would essentially be in the same boat and left with a useless Inflict Light wounds spell at higher level.

FluffyCalico
04-17-2008, 04:02 AM
If the devs allowed a neutral cleric to choose an affinity with negative energy, then Cure spells would have to be placed into empty slots to be able to use them and Inflict spells would be the default. You would essentially be in the same boat and left with a useless Inflict Light wounds spell at higher level.

I just want the ability to hit a shine when in the worst group ever and unlearn every heal spell and say sorry don't know those and can't get them til the next shirne :eek:

Uska
04-17-2008, 04:03 AM
If the devs allowed a neutral cleric to choose an affinity with negative energy, then Cure spells would have to be placed into empty slots to be able to use them and Inflict spells would be the default. You would essentially be in the same boat and left with a useless Inflict Light wounds spell at higher level.


Bingo

Nevthial
04-17-2008, 04:05 AM
I just want the ability to hit a shine when in the worst group ever and unlearn every heal spell and say sorry don't know those and can't get them til the next shirne :eek:

Haha! That would be very , very funny! "Oops, forgot to learn those today. Are you sure you don't have any potions? I may need to borrow one, or two."

It would be priceless if you could see their faces when you said it. :)

Gennerik
04-17-2008, 10:09 AM
I don't really think that Cure Light Wounds is useless past level 6. Honestly, I used it and Cure Moderate Wounds almost exclusively up until I started running through Gianthold. I did still use it in Gianthold, but that was normally just to top off the squishier characters to make sure they don't die from some lucky hit when I didn't need to cast the Mass version. Past that, it does more or less become less useful, since most monsters that we encounter now deal about as much damage as a Cure Light Wounds heals (or more), but on any content up to Gianthold, it can still be your main form of healing without much of a hassle.

Mad_Bombardier
04-17-2008, 01:19 PM
At level 12-14 there is no reason to have one of your level 1 spell slots force picked for you.It's not force picked for you; it's free ON TOP of your 5 spells per level. If you don't use it (and you shouldn't use CLW past L5 or so), then just take the spell off your hotbar.

Frodo_Lives
04-17-2008, 07:33 PM
The healing spells do not cost you a slot, they are given as a free spell slot to represent the spontaneous healing ability in PnP, if they took it away you would not get an extra spell you would simply lose the CLW slot.

This has to be one of the most nit picky things I've seen to be perfectly honest, I mean really what other "must have" 1st level spell would you take that you don't take already? I have lots of low level spell slots that are rarely used at high level. Being "forced" to take CLW for free isn't a big deal.

QuixoticDan
04-17-2008, 08:08 PM
To implement the negative-energy Cleric, they'd also have to recode Turn Undead. I'm pretty sure I've seen all the effects duplicated by arcane spells currently in the game, but at this point it's probably a bear of a problem to program the bookkeeping to track which version of Turn Undead a given cleric has chosen.

Yes, you can write it off as 'lazy programmers,' just like the people that claim 'lazy programming' on why Velah doesn't fly. In truth, this kind of baseline change can be very difficult once the system is in place and running. Just a little pre-defense of the programmers. ;)

Karranor
04-18-2008, 01:41 PM
I find CLW still useful. No it is not for keeping the main tank up in a nasty fight. But healing spec'd mine at 16 hit for about 40 regular, about 80 on a crit and upwards of 200 on a crit with someone with healers friend. Now that is a cheap cure!

samho
04-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I find CLW still useful. No it is not for keeping the main tank up in a nasty fight. But healing spec'd mine at 16 hit for about 40 regular, about 80 on a crit and upwards of 200 on a crit with someone with healers friend. Now that is a cheap cure!

The only "CLW" can hit 40 regular is "Mass" Cure Light Wound, due to it's level cap allow up to 25 (unlike the in-game description said, which is very wrong), and it's a CLR5 spell.


The good old CLW (without empower spell / maximize spell / empower healing) has a cap much lower than MCLW, due to level cap.


At level 16, original CLW (without any item / feat/ enhancement) has the healing cap of 13, with enhancement/item has the upper bound of 24 (for 10 sp cost), unless you enable empower healing (10sp) or empower spell (15sp), it's no way to reach 40ish healing without critical / target healing item/enhancement.


In the other hand, "M"CLW didn't reach the healing cap yet and you can heal up to 24 in the current level cap, with enhancement/item then you can got the upper bound of 45 (with lower bound of 36, by cost of 30sp) without any critical / target healing item / enhancement.


If anyone want question about why not empower / empower healing your CLR1 CLW, then let's take a look on CLR2 CMW:


The upper bound of CMW is 26 before any item, so it can reach 49 by your own item/enhancement, with 15sp :o

.
.
.
.

Well, guess the only thing I can think about the use of CLR1 CLW at level 16, is fighting undead when you land a mighty Heal and down the target's hp to 1...

Ransacked
04-18-2008, 02:03 PM
I just dont put them on my hot bar.

Only have room for heal scrolls, mass heals, heal, and cure critical.

Everything else isnt worth the effort. When your healing is not out healing the damage being dealt you start spamming heals and that gets old.

Fritz
04-18-2008, 02:16 PM
i use CLW on wiz/sorc characters and some rogues as well because they usually have such low health that unless they are almost dead, anything bigger is a waste.

if they are nearly dead then ill use CMW on them, but otherwise they get CLW exclusivly.


im sure people will speak up about how casters and rogues have more health than that, and im sure some do, but generally speaking they have extremly low life and using big heals on them is just a waste of your own spell points.


on fighter type characters, which includes barbs, paladins, and rangers, of course i dont use CLW on them, they have too many hit points.


i think saying CLW is useless is a bit of an exageration in an attempt to get your point accross. in the sense of the squeaky wheel gets the grease, you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to get your personal issue addressed that everyone else who plays this game understands and thinks is fine.

not sure what that says about you, but it sure does make this thread meaningless.

Karranor
04-18-2008, 02:43 PM
Here is my math of what I understand and this seems to be consistent with what I have witnessed in the game. Though I will admit I have not sat around healing myself 1000 times to test it.

13 – Base Max
1.5 Empower Spell
1.5 Superior Potency
1.5 Enhance Healing Enhancements
=
43

Crit 12% at 2.25 = 98
Healers Friend 1+10% = 108
HF 2 +20% = 117
HF 3 +30% = 127

So my high end guess may have been off but the low end seems right. I am not trying to pick a fight just understand this. If my thinking is wrong then I will reevaluate the usefulness of it.

Its one I toss on casters mostly… between fights. Mostly because I do not have any wand enhancements right now and am poor…

skraus1
04-18-2008, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=Karranor;1671673]

13 – Base Max
1.5 Empower Spell
1.5 Superior Potency
1.5 Enhance Healing Enhancements
=
43
/QUOTE]

Of course with empower and empower heal turned on, without any enhancements, it's only 5 mana less than a unmodified full heal and costs the same as a mass cure mod. For the hp healed either of these 2 spells seems like a better choice.

Aspenor
04-18-2008, 03:02 PM
That spell slot reflects the cleric's ability to use up any of his spells per day as a cure spell instead.

Consider it an "extra" slot that must have a cure spell in it.

samho
04-19-2008, 03:51 AM
Here is my math of what I understand and this seems to be consistent with what I have witnessed in the game. Though I will admit I have not sat around healing myself 1000 times to test it.

13 – Base Max
1.5 Empower Spell
1.5 Superior Potency
1.5 Enhance Healing Enhancements
=
43

Crit 12% at 2.25 = 98
Healers Friend 1+10% = 108
HF 2 +20% = 117
HF 3 +30% = 127

So my high end guess may have been off but the low end seems right. I am not trying to pick a fight just understand this. If my thinking is wrong then I will reevaluate the usefulness of it.

Its one I toss on casters mostly… between fights. Mostly because I do not have any wand enhancements right now and am poor…


Empowered (CLR1) CLW at level 16, which cost you 20 or 25 sp (depend on you use Empower Healing or Empower Spell):

Base 8 ~ 13 ( 1d6+2+5 * )
1.5 (Empower Spell or Empower Healing)
1.4 + 1.5 ( It's how Cleric Life Magic IV works with Super Potency / Devotion, grant a total 1.9 multiply rate, while one of them -- CLM IV -- give you 40% and another one -- Potency/Devotion -- give you 50%)
22 ~ 37


Plain old (CLR2) CMW at level 16, which cost you 15 sp (assume you turn off Empower Healing / Empower Spell)

Base 16 ~ 26 ( 2d6+4+10 * )
1.4+1.5
30 ~ 49


Plain old (CLR3) CSW at level 16, which cost you 20 sp

Base 24 ~ 39 ( 3d6+6+15 * )
1.4+1.5
45 ~ 74


Plain old (CLR4) CCW at level 16, which cost you 25 sp

Base 28 ~ 48 ( 4d6+8+16 ** )
1.4+1.5
53 ~ 91


While CLW (empowered or not) is not only the lowest healing amount spell here (CMW can beat it even with single Empower, CSW beat it even with Empower Healing + Empower Spell), it's also the worse hp / sp effectiveness spell (since head start)

CLW: 1.52 ~ 2.47
CMW: 2.0 ~ 3.27
CSW: 2.25 ~ 3.7
CCW: 2.12 ~ 3.64


It's the math reason why people didn't interesting for CLW at all.

samho
04-19-2008, 04:02 AM
Oh and as a 2-wizard owner at the same time, what I do was:

(1) Toss cleric 1 or 2 CSW wand at beginning if I think this quest is a bit difficult, or even tip some k plat.
(2) Tell the cleric he don't really need hit me with the wand, and don't need watch my HP, feel free to use it on any purpose (ok, maybe not any purpose, for example, don't click CSW wand when your target is undead :p )
(3) Make sure my Heavy Fortification item is equipped
(4) Pop up my own False Life wand ( 11 temp hp ), which cost the same as CMW wand
(5) Pop up my own Stone Skin wand ( cost like 1.6 times of CSW wand, but heh it's not a big issue at level 16 and it generally works better)
(6) Pop up my own CMW / CSW / Aid potion

Luthen
04-19-2008, 11:44 AM
Lets see,
1) My cleric is a healer
2) I said I didnt choose the healing domain (no domains in this game yet)
3) How does wanting to not have a level 1 heal spell mean that I won't heal? Try keeping a barb up on the pit fiend with cure light
4) The game is trying to make you a healer by FORCING you to take a healing spell at level 1 and on and on.
5) Even as a healing cleric it ****es me off that I can't get rid of a 100% useless spell for the level I am.

Because in lieu of domains they gave us an extra spell slot at levels and put the appropriate healing spell in that slot for EVERY cleric. Now I agree that building a cleric you should be given the choice whether to get Healing or Harming spells in that position as an alternative build style.

Nestorious
04-19-2008, 11:49 AM
CLW rant???? OMG you have to be kidding...

PLEASE, if you need to write about something and want to share it, at least make it something that ISNT covered in the basic game and hints/rules and please let it be something worth while.

This has to be one of the poorest excuses for a post I have seen in my 2+yrs here...

Are you going to start arguing your hp next?

Zuldar
04-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Looks like you don't realize cleric and wizard in DDO share the same spell point / spell slot system (a little bit similar with PnP) and the whole spontaneous casting thing won't change it. And you do ignore the root of problem, it's not that "Turbine" force you to use the spell slot for cure spell, it isn't -- you never own that slot, since it never count as your spell slot -- the problem is Turbine "assume" all cleric is Good Alignment cleric, it's nothing to do you are healing domain or not, and here's where it need to be address.

A lot of people are arguing the fact that clerics don't get that slot normally, "representing" the ability to spontaneously cast it.

But I would argue the fact that it more makes up for the slot we're losing due to no domains. We aren't being granted a free slot, clerics are being forced into getting a slot filled with a modified version of the healing domain.

GeneralDiomedes
04-19-2008, 11:17 PM
ah the old bait and switch.