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View Full Version : Petition - Please Change the flying blades to be an evadable attack



JayDubya
04-15-2008, 02:18 PM
Especially in part 5 - with fewer hit points than the main tanks, my evasion build gets smacked around by blades far more than seems right. It would hardly be game-breaking, but it would (in my opinion) give the rogues and rangers some staying power in there.

Josh
04-15-2008, 02:30 PM
Especially in part 5 - with fewer hit points than the main tanks, my evasion build gets smacked around by blades far more than seems right. It would hardly be game-breaking, but it would (in my opinion) give the rogues and rangers some staying power in there.

I'm not an expert on Eberron, but I seem to recall that in PnP the blades have to roll to hit your AC. I would like it to be like that, or a reflex save like a trap. Either of those is fine.

There should NEVER be a situation where a PC has no way to avoid damage. Yes, I know you can try to avoid the blades, but that's B.S. How many times have you seen the blades and gotten a lag spike? You're then surrounded by them. Hell, I've been hit by them when they're nowhere near me (just like the dispel magic from nowhere....more lame ideas).

Twerpp
04-15-2008, 02:31 PM
It should be save-able or an attack vs AC....SOMETHING! Not just bam it attacks you get hit and take full damage no matter what. Thats not very D&D.

Twerpp
04-15-2008, 02:31 PM
Edit- double posted on accident

Talon_Moonshadow
04-15-2008, 02:31 PM
Granted my one normal Shroud completion does not make me an expert.....but...

My rgr ruled in there! those blades hurt, but nothing i couldn't potion heal away. (was expensive on the potions though)

And although not evadable.....they can be avoided if you are careful (I wasn't).

I don't think they are such a big deal on normal. Now, I have no idea what they are like on hard or elite...but this is supposed to be the hardest quest in the game right now. And I asume, I will just do my best to avoid them when i see them coming, if I find out they hurt bad.

Yaga_Nub
04-15-2008, 02:32 PM
It should be save-able or an attack vs AC....SOMETHING! Not just bam it attacks you get hit and take full damage no matter what. Thats not very D&D.


It should be savable or an attack vs AC....SOMETHING! Not just bam it attacks you get hit and take full damage no matter what. Thats not very D&D.

I agree with both of those comments. :)

Twerpp
04-15-2008, 02:33 PM
I agree with both of those comments. :)

Damn youse caught me before the edit!

QuantumFX
04-15-2008, 02:57 PM
I agree with both of those comments. :)

Well I can agree with both of Twerps comments and both you and Josh. (Just call me Harvey Dent! :D )

Anytime I see a situation where I can cite the d20 rule our GM is breaking it makes me wanna smack someone in the back of the head. Nothing destroys an immersive experience like a cheater.

Impaqt
04-15-2008, 03:09 PM
Would also be nice if they did Slash/Pierce Damage that could be mitigated by Axeblock/Pierceblock(I know its called somethign else, but you know what I mean)

Not sure why Flying Swords would bypass appropriet DR.

BigNastyMP
04-15-2008, 03:18 PM
One man's meat...
I like the blades in the shroud. It separates the men from the boys.


Anytime I see a situation where I can cite the d20 rule our GM is breaking it makes me wanna smack someone in the back of the head. Nothing destroys an immersive experience like a cheater.
My DM has control of the rules, he makes them fit the situation. If he feels he needs to bend/break the d20 rules, he does and we support him. Nothing destroys an immersive experience like [edit: name calling].
...another man's poison.

Strykersz
04-15-2008, 04:42 PM
I like the blades in the shroud. It separates the men from the boys. My DM has control of the rules, he makes them fit the situation. If he feels he needs to bend/break the d20 rules, he does and we support him. Nothing destroys an immersive experience like [edit: name calling]


Yeah, they have to leave it as it is or else ac tanks/rogues would be *ruling* the shroud even more than they already are.

QuantumFX
04-15-2008, 06:22 PM
One man's meat...
I like the blades in the shroud. It separates the men from the boys.

My DM has control of the rules, he makes them fit the situation. If he feels he needs to bend/break the d20 rules, he does and we support him. Nothing destroys an immersive experience like [edit: name calling].
...another man's poison.

This is an example of things that detracts from the fun I have playing DDO. Thanks to my P&P background the experience is jarring, disappointing and beneath the team that's put this game together. It sucks the fun out of it. Everything in P&P has at least two types of defenses against it. Why should DDO be different?

My GM is the final arbitrator of the rules but doesn't need to omit entire portions of the d20 ruleset to benefit trash mobs. The only time he needs to fudge a dice roll is when it's story breaking not rules breaking.

Gadget2775
04-15-2008, 06:23 PM
Not sure why Flying Swords would bypass appropriet DR.

Maybe they're Transmuting Flying Swords :D

BigNastyMP
04-15-2008, 08:00 PM
Good luck gaming. Good luck on those blades. My squishy (squishy!) wizard likes the blades just how they are. Also, read Ron Edwards at the Forge. Gamism: Step on Up.

abull74
04-15-2008, 08:24 PM
Fpoon agrees....the blades should have to hit your AC AND they should be evadable....

Hvymetal
04-16-2008, 03:45 AM
Good luck gaming. Good luck on those blades. My squishy (squishy!) wizard likes the blades just how they are. Also, read Ron Edwards at the Forge. Gamism: Step on Up.
My squishy (squishy!) Rogue doesn;t mind the blades either, I avoid them (for the most part). However, me as the player thinks it's BS, it's called not cheating unless you have to as a GM...........

FluffyCalico
04-16-2008, 04:11 AM
My squishy (squishy!) Rogue doesn;t mind the blades either, I avoid them (for the most part). However, me as the player thinks it's BS, it's called not cheating unless you have to as a GM...........

How is a DM saying a bunch of blades are flying tword you what do you do.
And you saying I stand there and ignore them.
And him saying you take x damage cheating?

To me you are getting a save roll. Roll in your head and see if you want to move.

JFeenstra
04-16-2008, 04:43 AM
To me you are getting a save roll. Roll in your head and see if you want to move.only if on a roll of 1 my head explodes

Hvymetal
04-16-2008, 07:08 AM
How is a DM saying a bunch of blades are flying tword you what do you do.
And you saying I stand there and ignore them.
And him saying you take x damage cheating?

To me you are getting a save roll. Roll in your head and see if you want to move.

He could just say the same with a fireball then no? Or a ray spell? And the first time I encounter lag while playing a P&P game it's time to put the drink down ;)

Ikuryo
04-16-2008, 09:57 AM
Actually looking at some of the quests given in Meridia you are supposed to be able to destroy the blades. It seems at some time during testing they decided to remove that though. It seems that an AC or reflex check should be made when they pass through you though. Its always seemed wrong that I get hit for full regardless of what my reflex save is. I might personally have a save of 4 but my ranger with godly dex and feats to help him should really be able to avoid some of those blades..

paintedman
04-16-2008, 01:50 PM
Gonna have to agree with the others, this isn't some single blade or fire trap, its whirling blades, kinda like a cloud, to dodge em, means to physically move your character out of the way, which is something we can do! As for getting an ac check, well the laws of probability with that many blades remove that, just be glad you only get hit once per time in it! I'd like to know if anyone has ever jumped over the blades?

-paint

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 02:50 PM
Especially in part 5 - with fewer hit points than the main tanks, my evasion build gets smacked around by blades far more than seems right. It would hardly be game-breaking, but it would (in my opinion) give the rogues and rangers some staying power in there.

Dude really? They already gave us the luxury of saving against incredible blade traps in the Deamon Queen Raid. Especially in par 5 you have ample warning and ability to avoid most of the damage. I am sorry if your low hit point character cannot hang in there and beat on the pit fiend as long as the high hit point tanks but it is what it is. When the blades get close... get scarce. What else can you really ask for. If it were any other way rogues and rangers could stand there all day whacking at the fiend until he disappeared. How fair is that?

moorewr
04-16-2008, 02:59 PM
I'd be happy with the PnP rule - no evasion, but an AC roll.

Also, what is the point of being insulting to the OP? Disagree on the merits if you like. He has an opinion, and you have yours.

drachine
04-16-2008, 03:02 PM
gotta agree i should be an evasion save as it seems to be an area of effect damage.

but there should be no reason why my 16th lv rogue with improved evasion takes the same damage from them as someone with out any evasion at all. if i can save against demon elite multiple blade barriers then a random whirling blade i should get a save vs the damage.

Kraegor
04-16-2008, 03:12 PM
This is an example of things that detracts from the fun I have playing DDO. Thanks to my P&P background the experience is jarring, disappointing and beneath the team that's put this game together. It sucks the fun out of it. Everything in P&P has at least two types of defenses against it. Why should DDO be different?

My GM is the final arbitrator of the rules but doesn't need to omit entire portions of the d20 ruleset to benefit trash mobs. The only time he needs to fudge a dice roll is when it's story breaking not rules breaking.

Every single version of D&D has listed that the Players Handbook and Rules are a "guideline" for Game Masters. It has always expressed that Game Masters have 100% total control over thier campaign, and can ignore, delete, input, or change any rule, law, gravitational effect, or anything else that they see fit. They are not arbitrators, they are judge, jury and executioner of thier will.

Players are along for the ride.

Now yes, a good game master will not throw wierd stuff at players, but thats another discussion altogether.

Cyr
04-16-2008, 04:11 PM
/signed

or at least have them work like regular weapons and have to hit your AC...follow the normal rules for once in a raid turbine...trust us you can still make a very enjoyable and difficult quest.

QuantumFX
04-16-2008, 05:16 PM
Every single version of D&D has listed that the Players Handbook and Rules are a "guideline" for Game Masters. It has always expressed that Game Masters have 100% total control over thier campaign, and can ignore, delete, input, or change any rule, law, gravitational effect, or anything else that they see fit. They are not arbitrators, they are judge, jury and executioner of thier will.

Arbitrator: n : someone chosen to judge and decide a disputed issue [syn: arbiter]

A different title for the same thing... Judges also have to work within rules or have to interpret rules. The jury is not the GM but the players who decide whether or not to continue playing with said GM.


Players are along for the ride.

Now yes, a good game master will not throw wierd stuff at players, but thats another discussion altogether.

But it has everything to do with my main post and nothing to do with the strawman that people keep trying to stuff. You might have read multiple times that my main issue is that our GM keeps breaking the fourth wall by blatantly ignoring the d20 ruleset. As a player I'm sitting perfectly within my role of player by keeping our GM honest.

Your post reads like players do not matter. This is so wrong on so many levels that it's not funny. What's a game with a GM but no players? When a group comes together it's based on the fact that all parties will try and follow the rules to the best of their ability.

You and whatshisname above don't acknowledge that I consider "bending rules to advance a storyline" a rule. (Bosswards) Nor do you see me complaining about the trip/sunder mechanics. (Rules in place because we lack AoA's) A reasonable person would infer that I want my GM to follow the d20/Eberron rulebooks when it's possible. It is possible in this case. (It's an AC based attack in P&P.)

And if this comes across as being too harsh then I apologize. I'm just getting sick and tired loony toon posts (not your's) off of an impassioned/offhanded comment I make.

vyvy3369
04-16-2008, 05:30 PM
Everything in P&P has at least two types of defenses against it. Why should DDO be different?
One notable exception to this is Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm), which DDO seems to have added in at least a couple places for this module.

In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.
While it doesn't seem like a typical swarm, the mechanic is there, and also seems to be used by the new bats. In the case of these blades, it'd be more fair if they could be destroyed like one of the other posters mentioned, but it's not THAT bad. As others have stated, they also have a predictable pattern, and you can fairly easily avoid them if you try.

QuantumFX
04-16-2008, 06:00 PM
One notable exception to this is Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm), which DDO seems to have added in at least a couple places for this module.

While it doesn't seem like a typical swarm, the mechanic is there, and also seems to be used by the new bats. In the case of these blades, it'd be more fair if they could be destroyed like one of the other posters mentioned, but it's not THAT bad. As others have stated, they also have a predictable pattern, and you can fairly easily avoid them if you try.

A swarm would still have to hit your AC and deal with any physical DR. (Having two defenses available defenses it doesn't mean you'll always have the two defenses prepared.) :)

And I do consider AoA's a reactive defense. (It gives an intelligent enemy a reason not to attack you.)

If it helps you guys any the reason I want this change isn't because you can run around the blades it's because our GM is having to depend on a mechanic outside of player/GM control. (Latency and packet loss.) Large movements also don't take into account small defensive maneuvers that characters would make. Think of an action film where the hero narrowly dodges a projectile by turning his head at the last moment. That's what's abstractly represented by thinks like touch AC and saves and that's what we're missing.

BlueLightBandit
04-16-2008, 06:04 PM
Everything in P&P has at least two types of defenses against it. Why should DDO be different?

Because this is not P&P, this is DDO.

And House Rules at DDO HQ says so.

Besides that if it were one or two blades, I could understand getting a reflex save against them. But they're not, they're many many swirling blades in there, and would make it impossible to avoid regardless of ones reflex, unless of course you were a slinky.

AC is moot simply because they're magical.

vyvy3369
04-16-2008, 06:08 PM
A swarm would still have to hit your AC and deal with any physical DR. (Having two defenses available defenses it doesn't mean you'll always have the two defenses prepared.)
Actually...swarms don't have attack bonuses. You'll note that their attack is listed as "Swarm (1d6)" for the bats, unlike say an Elf which lists "Longsword +2 melee (1d8+1/19-20) or longbow +3 ranged (1d8/×3)". Physical DR, probably. The only other one I can think of is holding an action (which isn't available in DDO), and I'd guess that swarms are faster than you in a double move than your single held move.

Edit: to clarify, if a swarm is in your square, you take damage. No attack roll, no reflex save, etc.

QuantumFX
04-16-2008, 07:27 PM
Actually...swarms don't have attack bonuses. You'll note that their attack is listed as "Swarm (1d6)" for the bats, unlike say an Elf which lists "Longsword +2 melee (1d8+1/19-20) or longbow +3 ranged (1d8/×3)". Physical DR, probably. The only other one I can think of is holding an action (which isn't available in DDO), and I'd guess that swarms are faster than you in a double move than your single held move.

Edit: to clarify, if a swarm is in your square, you take damage. No attack roll, no reflex save, etc.

A swarm also consists of:


A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.

the reason they're given numbers is that numerically they're gonna roll a 20 somehow. DR still applies.

Finally found my source for the blades: HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040309a)


Whirling Blades: Creatures not native to Shavarath are subject to attack by whirling blades that travel the plane like flocks of birds. An attack occurs every round once a flock of whirling blades is encountered (70% chance): attack bonus +10 melee (2d6). The blades are treated as magic and evil-aligned weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

[eaten by cube]

vyvy3369
04-16-2008, 07:43 PM
the reason they're given numbers is that numerically they're gonna roll a 20 somehow.
That's one interpretation of it. Reading through the 3.5 MM though, it says "Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover..."

Nevthial
04-16-2008, 07:45 PM
Finally found my source for the blades: HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040309a)

The blades should get an attack roll, or there should be a reflex save with evasion ( if applicable ) working. Also, if the blades are animated they should be able to be destroyed. Having no defense against them whatsoever is well....not very D&D'ish.
What about a high level Monk who can avoid/deflect an unlimited number of ranged missiles? Will they just be fodder for the blender? Doesn't make much sense.

Nevthial
04-16-2008, 07:47 PM
That's one interpretation of it. Reading through the 3.5 MM though, it says "Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover..."

If they are considered creatures, they should be destroyable.

QuantumFX
04-16-2008, 08:12 PM
That's one interpretation of it. Reading through the 3.5 MM though, it says "Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover..."

Exactly, it's a condensation of "make an attack roll 300 times" and "the assault of a thousand papercuts". d20 is generic/cinematic like that.


The blades should get an attack roll, or there should be a reflex save with evasion ( if applicable ) working. Also, if the blades are animated they should be able to be destroyed. Having no defense against them whatsoever is well....not very D&D'ish.

Agreed.

moorewr
04-16-2008, 08:20 PM
Exactly, it's a condensation of "make an attack roll 300 times" and "the assault of a thousand papercuts". d20 is generic/cinematic like that.

Sure, but per Eberron in PnP the blades do have an attack bonus, and do roll to hit. Ipso facto, in relation to the Monster Manual rule, they are not swarms of blades, per se, but some other.. er, large group of like-minded objects.




(Hmm. Where's a Doctor Who fan to ask me why I'm speaking Celtic?)

QuantumFX
04-16-2008, 08:31 PM
Sure, but per Eberron in PnP the blades do have an attack bonus, and do roll to hit. Ipso facto, in relation to the Monster Manual rule, they are not swarms of blades, per se, but some other.. er, large group of like-minded objects.

(Hmm. Where's a Doctor Who fan to ask me why I'm speaking Celtic?)

Yeah and that's what I'd like to see. vyvy3369 and I are just talking about the "why" mechanics of swarms AFAIK... I didn't feel comfortable talking about the specific rules on the shavarath bladestorms until I had a quotable source. In other words: We're speaking... NERDDDDD!!!! ;)

vyvy3369
04-16-2008, 08:45 PM
If they are considered creatures, they should be destroyable.

While it doesn't seem like a typical swarm, the mechanic is there, and also seems to be used by the new bats. In the case of these blades, it'd be more fair if they could be destroyed like one of the other posters mentioned, but it's not THAT bad. As others have stated, they also have a predictable pattern, and you can fairly easily avoid them if you try.
I'm not saying that it's a good mechanic, and swarms quite frankly suck to fight against, but the topic from what I understood was why the blades are the way they are. Swarms are by far the closest thing I know of in PnP to the way the blades actually behave in DDO. They do not require an attack roll, they don't suffer from concealment or cover, they don't allow for reflex saves...essentially if they get near you, you take damage. I haven't checked whether DR helps vs them, but I'm assuming that after all this discussion someone would have pointed out if it did.

Assuming that they intended these blades to follow the swarm mechanics, I can see them adding DR (if it doesn't help already), but evasion wouldn't apply and ideally they could be destroyed (even though "new" swarms could potentially just show up the next round). If instead they intended them to be upgraded versions of the Shavarath whirling blade flocks, then they should be getting an attack roll and not evasion.

Edit: and most likely, they took the two ideas and combined them into something special. After all, he does seem to be at least some form of demigod or other powerful being. It could even be an Epic Spell he created for all we know.

Nevthial
04-16-2008, 08:51 PM
If instead they intended them to be upgraded versions of the Shavarath whirling blade flocks, then they should be getting an attack roll and not evasion.

Edit: and most likely, they took the two ideas and combined them into something special. After all, he does seem to be at least some form of demigod or other powerful being. It could even be an Epic Spell he created for all we know.

Prob hits at +70 BAB so anything we do is useless..LOL :)

BlueLightBandit
04-16-2008, 09:55 PM
[gulp]

Find ten things in DDO that are exactly the same as they are on paper, and I'll show you one hundred things that are per "House Rules" as was mentioned in my earlier post.

You guys are using classic "guides" as if they were written in stone. They're not, and the blades in DDO are different... because they are in DDO, which has it's own set of house rules, because this is not D&D, this is DDO.

[squish] Either way, the blades in DDO are different because EVERYTHING in DDO is different.

moorewr
04-16-2008, 10:52 PM
Yeah and that's what I'd like to see. vyvy3369 and I are just talking about the "why" mechanics of swarms AFAIK... I didn't feel comfortable talking about the specific rules on the shavarath bladestorms until I had a quotable source. In other words: We're speaking... NERDDDDD!!!! ;)

My native tongue. :p

JFeenstra
04-17-2008, 07:07 AM
Whirling Blades: Creatures not native to Shavarath are subject to attack by whirling blades that travel the plane like flocks of birds. An attack occurs every round once a flock of whirling blades is encountered (70% chance): attack bonus +10 melee (2d6). The blades are treated as magic and evil-aligned weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

from the wizards website quoted earlier in this thread

now bump the ab and dam up to ddo levels (x3-x5) and you've got blades that smack around most players ac's without question, assuming it's on the higher side (around +50 ab for normal)

granted, they should still roll a 1 every now and again

The_Phenx
04-17-2008, 04:21 PM
Yeah, they have to leave it as it is or else ac tanks/rogues would be *ruling* the shroud even more than they already are.

Casters ruled the Orchard... give us our moment in the sun.

FoxOne
04-17-2008, 04:33 PM
Especially in part 5 - with fewer hit points than the main tanks, my evasion build gets smacked around by blades far more than seems right. It would hardly be game-breaking, but it would (in my opinion) give the rogues and rangers some staying power in there.



Just reroll if your toon is a gimp.My cleric had 226 HP which i deemed insufficient to beat shroud elite part 4.Guess what?instead of coming here to cry so they adapt something to my gimpism i just rerolled him.he has 226 hp now but lvl 12 with no false life item.Only a con 4 since lvl 9.

Evelline
01-16-2012, 09:37 AM
I sign this petition.

somenewnoob
01-16-2012, 09:44 AM
They need:

1. To be evadeable
2. To have a to hit roll
3. Be affected by dr.

learst
01-16-2012, 09:49 AM
They need:

1. To be evadeable
2. To have a to hit roll
3. Be affected by dr.

/roll against Thread Necro Detection
/rolled 1

You have fed a troll. ;)

I was really surprised when I checked out the first page and notice so many 2006-vets posting, and many of them that I don't recognise as frequent forum posters. :)

somenewnoob
01-16-2012, 09:53 AM
/roll against Thread Necro Detection
/rolled 1

You have fed a troll. ;)

I was really surprised when I checked out the first page and notice so many 2006-vets posting, and many of them that I don't recognise as frequent forum posters. :)

ha, so I did!

Like I READ threads before I post! :D

ArcaneMelee
01-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Wow, for a 4-year-old thread, it sounds very modern.

IWZincedge
01-16-2012, 07:38 PM
This petition has expired.