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Geonis
04-15-2008, 06:07 AM
Okay, the change to Smite regenning is good.

It is not good enough to make up for the lack of actual Pally Love in this MOD though.

We got a Res line we didn't ask for and easily replaced with some farming or planned out character building.

We got a line of enhancements based around hurting yourself (never thought of Pallys as going all emo ;)).

And, we got a line that is supposed to be ramping up our Smites.

I will be ignoring the first 2, as the first is not needed nor asked for, and the second is a faulty use of a worthless PnP spell.

I will be listing the math for the Exalted Smite line and the increase to damage.



1- I cannot include the "damage bonus based on your paladin level", as the Devs have not listed how exactly it is related to your Paldin level. It may be several times your Paladin level and tack onto base damage before crit multiplier, in which case I am totally
wrong about the damage increase, but I seriously doubt it is.

2- All math assumes all crit threats are confirmed, which means the increase in damage I am showing here is actually more than it would really be.

3- I have done the math for the 3 most commonly used weapons. The only thing you would need to do to figure out how much the increase is in damage for any given weapon is look at the one with the same crit threat and multiplier. (Those using 19-20/x2 do less than the khopesh and those using 20/x3 get less than the pick.)

4- Also, I have not included the loss of DPS caused by stopping to initiate an Exalted Smite, as the Devs say that the inability to use a Smite in mid combo is a bug, even though this was introduced at the same time as the cooldown being added.


UPDATED Paladin Exalted Smite III: (We are not talking about ES4, as it won't even be in game for months)
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (Cooldown drops to 3 seconds.)


Okay, since we're dealing with adding crit multiplier and threat, we need to determine where the most damage is going to come from.

+1 threat and +2 multiplier, assuming Imp Crit on relevant weapon type and auto confirmation of crit.

scimitar/rapier

base- 15-20 /x2
enhanced- 14-20 /x4

increase in crit occurence is 1/6 or 16.67%
increase in crit damage is x2 or 200%

So, we have a 16.67% increase of occurence with 200% increase in damage
.1667 x 2 = .33 or 33% increase in damage.


khopesh

base- 17-20 /x3
enhanced- 16-20 /x5

increase in crit occurence is 1/4 or 25%
increase in crit damage is x2/3 or 66.67%

So, we have a 25% increase of occurence with 66.67% increase in damage
.25 x .6667 = .16667 or 16.67% increase in damage.


pick

base- 19-20 /x4
enhanced- 18-20 /x6

increase in crit occurence is 1/2 or 50%
increase in crit damage is 1/2 or 50%

So, we have a 50% increase of occurence with 50% increase in damage
.5 x .5 = .25 or 25% increase in damage.



That means, best case, with a Rapier/Scimitar, you will do an average of 33% more damage on an Exalted Smite 3 swing vs a regular Smite.

That does not take into account the DPS lost from using a lower base damage weapon or the DPS gained from the "damage bonus based on your paladin level". I would think, there would still be DPS loss from the lowering of your average damage, as the Smite is only used a maximum of 8 or 9 times in a ~30 second period.

Depending on the "damage bonus based on your paladin level", there could actually be a small increase in DPS, but not enough to justify 16 APs spent on getting this enhancement.



The increase in damage percentages above are not to overall DPS, it is to that 1 swing and that 1 swing only.

Yaga_Nub
04-15-2008, 07:28 AM
That does not take into account the DPS lost from using a lower base damage weapon

[edit: huh?]

gpk
04-15-2008, 09:56 AM
There is a clearly an affinity to different weapons which many players don't realize, and it's important to point out how different weapons are affected, this applies to Divine Sacrifice as well.

Many of the proposed "pally love" may appear good at 1st glance to some, but when broken down and analyzed the truth quickly becomes apparent. Sometimes simply listing numbers and "being done with it" is not enough.

In fact if you look at the forums some have even publicly changed their minds from their initial "cool!" reaction; noone I've seen as switched from the "blech" to the "cool!" camp.

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 11:40 AM
I'd suggest caution in re-posting the same thread topic. It's against the board rules and all that. I can't say I think it should apply for a more complicated issue but it does provoke people and then they provoke you back and you end up with a thread that gets locked and even if the intent was genuine it broke the rules in the first place and thus you could be on the hook.

Anyhow....

It looks clear to me that the extra damage in exaulted smite is the normal extra damage from smite evil.

Smite Evil
Charisma modifier x 2 (if any) to his/her attack roll and deals extra damage based on his/her paladin level. The extra damage done is 10+(3*(level-1)). For instance, a 6th level paladin does 10+3*5 (or 25) extra damage on a successful smite

This matches the more general description of exaulted smite pretty much spot on. X2 charsima to attack and a damage calculation based on paladin level.

So exaulted smite increases the crit chance and multiplier on smites. I see no compelling reason not to use the above formula in your calculations.

Lets say a decent level 16 paladin does 1d6 + 20 15-20 X2 damage on a normal swing (one handed weapon, charisma 22)
That's about 30pts average

An exaulted smite 3 would deal 1d6 + 20 + 55 14-20 X4
That's about 160pts average

Almost a 530% increase in damage on a smite.

Vormaerin
04-15-2008, 03:13 PM
Lets say a decent level 16 paladin does 1d6 + 20 15-20 X2 damage on a normal swing (one handed weapon, charisma 22)
That's about 30pts average

An exaulted smite 3 would deal 1d6 + 20 + 55 14-20 X4
That's about 160pts average

Almost a 530% increase in damage on a smite.

The OP is comparing a Smite Evil to an Exalted Smite Evil rather than normal attack to an exalted smite evil. If the base damage bonus is the same for smite and exalted smite, you are essentially paying for the +1 range, +2 multiplier only. That is not especially cost effective given the relatively few times you'll get to use it during a quest if you play in the usual fast paced style. Its more valuable on my paladins that play in 'smell the roses' groups, because it'll recharge more often when you spend an hour in a very long quest instead of 15 minutes. But that's not a typical situation.

GhostNull
04-15-2008, 03:39 PM
With regards to the thread title, what disappoints me the most is the lack of a Dev comment on the current proposed "Pally Love".

Many people agree that the new Smites aren't going to cut it. It's not enough to get Paladins out of the DPS hole they're in.

There's been proper "Pally Love" suggested by players numerous times; you know them as three simple spells and one feat...

Silverbeard
Righteous Fury
Righteous Aura

Divine Might

Yet, there hasn't been a single Dev comment on any one of those. Righteous Fury and Divine Might would help Paladins move further out of the DPS hole they're in. Silverbeard would help close the AC gap for most Paladins. Righteous Aura would boost saves, increase attack of Smite Evil, increase potency of Lay on Hands, and boost damage of Divine Might (if it were implemented).

A simple, "We've thought about it, but have no plans to ever implement them" or, "We've thought about it, and have plans to implement them at some point", or finally, "We've thought about it, and we are implementing them with the upcoming Mod, but we just haven't told you yet" would suffice for a reply, Devs

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 06:30 PM
A simple, "We've thought about it, but have no plans to ever implement them" or, "We've thought about it, and have plans to implement them at some point", or finally, "We've thought about it, and we are implementing them with the upcoming Mod, but we just haven't told you yet" would suffice for a reply, Devs

Dev communication 101...

If they havn't said anything about it then they don't have any definite plans to do it. Whether they have thought about it or not is irrelivent and only invites you to argue with them about thier decisions which is something they seem to avoid like the pluage.

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 06:38 PM
The OP is comparing a Smite Evil to an Exalted Smite Evil rather than normal attack to an exalted smite evil.

That wasn't what I read. Exaulted smite does not cost 16 ap, its 6 for the line up to version 3. He also mentioned the extra damage it mentions, which to me just seems to be base damage. The only way it costs you 16 is if you buy extra smite 4 and exaulted 3. If you are comparing that you pretty much have to compare smite damage to no smite damage for 16 points because without it you have both less smites and they crit less effectively.

Personaly I think 12 points (extra smite 4 is not worth while IMO) for 7 shots an extra 130pt average is pretty decent for a melee character. Its not the best enhancement ever, but its not bad either.

QuantumFX
04-15-2008, 06:40 PM
Divine Might

The only defense that the devs could have for this one is that it came from a 3.0 splashbook. That said, it would be a great way to boost paladins by giving them some feats to optimize off of. (Power Attack/Extra Turning/Divine Might) Then they would only have to find a way to make remove disease a useful clickie. :D

GhostNull
04-15-2008, 07:25 PM
Dev communication 101...

If they havn't said anything about it then they don't have any definite plans to do it. Whether they have thought about it or not is irrelivent and only invites you to argue with them about thier decisions which is something they seem to avoid like the pluage.

Please, don't attempt to give me lesson about "Dev Communication". I knew when Eladrin posted this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1617156#post1617156), it was game over, done. That's what the Devs have had planned all along for Paladin love. I'm just on the bandwagon with other people who feel ill over the coming "Pally Love".

But, you would imagine that with the numerous threads and countless posts about the planned Paladin love and how members feel about it, the Devs would at least say something to quell the uprising.

QuantumFX: The Devs have shown before that they are willing to bend the rules. So if that's their defense, it's not good enough now.

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 07:54 PM
Please, don't attempt to give me lesson about "Dev Communication". I knew when Eladrin posted it was game over, done.

But, you would imagine that with the numerous threads and countless posts about the planned Paladin love and how members feel about it, the Devs would at least say something to quell the uprising.


If you know its game over why are you asking them to comment on your proposals? It sounds like you just want to debate wtih them and that isn't going to happen. They can't quell the uprising by telling you they plan to go ahead with thier changes and that is the only thing they can really tell you at this point.

Abotu the best they can do is to say, "Were sorry you are not satisfied with the coming changes to the class." Would that make you feel better? I rather doubt it.

Vormaerin
04-15-2008, 08:50 PM
That wasn't what I read. Exaulted smite does not cost 16 ap, its 6 for the line up to version 3. He also mentioned the extra damage it mentions, which to me just seems to be base damage. The only way it costs you 16 is if you buy extra smite 4 and exaulted 3. If you are comparing that you pretty much have to compare smite damage to no smite damage for 16 points because without it you have both less smites and they crit less effectively.

Personaly I think 12 points (extra smite 4 is not worth while IMO) for 7 shots an extra 130pt average is pretty decent for a melee character. Its not the best enhancement ever, but its not bad either.

Well, his pricing is wonky.. as it often is when people price things with prereqs. I tend not to consider the prereqs as part of the price unless they are things I'd never buy otherwise, like a boost to concentration for spellsinger. I'd tend to do the math comparing it as a six point enhancement to regular smite since that is what the 'love' is.

However, the math is clearly only factoring in the boost to crits, so it has to be between smites and exalted smites since ignoring the damage addition of smite compared to a normal attack makes the whole exercise pointless.

Extra Smite IV is a requirement for Exalted Smite III, so you can't ignore it. Also, its not seven shots of Smite. They are reducing extra smite back to the 1 per rank of Extra Smite according to the WDA. So you can get 5 off quickly, then the rest are recharging.

Anyway, not arguing conclusions here. I happen to think the new enhancements are useful, particularly in the slower paced playstyle I favor. They just aren't as powerful as some of the stuff given to other classes recently. Which doesn't really bother me, as I don't really give a rat's behind about what other folks can do as long as I'm having fun. But obviously some folks' fun is tied up with comparative effectiveness. I don't think this stuff will help those players' paladins.

Falco_Easts
04-15-2008, 09:44 PM
But, you would imagine that with the numerous threads and countless posts about the planned Paladin love and how members feel about it, the Devs would at least say something to quell the uprising.

Well, this "member" likes it and is looking forward to taking the enhancements.

Most of the "Uprising" is coming from the same noisy people.

gpk
04-15-2008, 09:52 PM
Well, this "member" likes it and is looking forward to taking the enhancements.

Really ? Care to tell us why? Please go into detail.


Most of the "Uprising" is coming from the same noisy people.

Seems people are coming out of the woodwork to lodge their complaints, hardly the "usual suspects"...

Aesop
04-15-2008, 10:04 PM
The only defense that the devs could have for this one is that it came from a 3.0 splashbook. That said, it would be a great way to boost paladins by giving them some feats to optimize off of. (Power Attack/Extra Turning/Divine Might) Then they would only have to find a way to make remove disease a useful clickie. :D

Actually Divine Might is in the COmplete Warrior (3.5 book) I think its page 106 or something so is Divine Shield


the problem the devs have with Divine Might is that it lasts 1 round ... how long is 1 round in DDO...is 1 round a really good use of a TU attempt (I think so).

Divine Shield lasts 6 sec per character level.... and add Cha to a shield bonus


Aesop

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 10:33 PM
Extra Smite IV is a requirement for Exalted Smite III, so you can't ignore it. Also, its not seven shots of Smite. They are reducing extra smite back to the 1 per rank of Extra Smite according to the WDA. So you can get 5 off quickly, then the rest are recharging.

Ahh, I missed that Exalted 4 requires Extra 4. I was going by the Exalted 1 require and then assuming the others just needed the previous in the chain as most of the chains work that way. Having to pay an extra 4 for the last smite is a pretty steep cost. (did I ever mention I think the progressive cost system is a bad idea... probably :P ) Paladins get 4 smites base at level 15 so thats 8 total. I wasn't aware extra smite was granting 2 per rank (I'll check mine)... they should keep that if its the case.


They just aren't as powerful as some of the stuff given to other classes recently.

Generaly I agree. Althoug I think the raise dead LOH enhancments are actualy quite good and will be very usefull. I don't buy into the line about just farmin loot for raise dead clickies. I think in my entire guild (admitedly a casual bunch) we have some 3 greensteel items and 2 rings of the ancestors. Lots of scrolls but most paladins can't use those. Plus, while green steel is a more or less fixed item you can get, you can't get them at the levels where you can use the raise dead abbility.

But I agree that none of it is as good as Crit Rage or Tempest, which are among the best enhancements in the game. (The spell damage enhancments are probably the only thing more potent and those are more a way to make damage spells viable than a class bonus.)

sigtrent
04-15-2008, 10:34 PM
the problem the devs have with Divine Might is that it lasts 1 round ... how long is 1 round in DDO...is 1 round a really good use of a TU attempt (I think so).


There is the feat but there is also a spell called divine might. 5th level I think and gives you a +6 size bonus to strength and some other stuff as well. Its quite beefy!

gpk
04-15-2008, 10:53 PM
There is the feat but there is also a spell called divine might. 5th level I think and gives you a +6 size bonus to strength and some other stuff as well. Its quite beefy!

Are you perhaps thinking of the cleric's Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)?

Strykersz
04-15-2008, 11:03 PM
Really ? Care to tell us why? Please go into detail.


He's *really* into getting a ~.5 dps increase.

Falco_Easts
04-15-2008, 11:31 PM
Really ? Care to tell us why? Please go into detail.

Personally I have no problem with the playability of my Pali as he stands or his DPS. These will add nice flavour to him. It is a RPG, not everything is about the math. I don't need to pull out a calculator and work out the DPS of these ehancements down to the 4th decimal place before I decide if I will take them or not.


Seems people are coming out of the woodwork to lodge their complaints, hardly the "usual suspects"...
Or all the silent ones who see no need to discuss as they like it as it is. The ones who have seen the Devs say this is how it will be and are happy to go with the flow. I'm sure there aer plenty on both sides.

Don't like the new enhacnements, don't use them.

Mhykke
04-15-2008, 11:41 PM
Personally I have no problem with the playability of my Pali as he stands or his DPS. These will add nice flavour to him. It is a RPG, not everything is about the math. I don't need to pull out a calculator and work out the DPS of these ehancements down to the 4th decimal place before I decide if I will take them or not.


With all due respect, this is a cop out.

Other classes get serious upgrades, but you're arguing that paladins should just be happy w/ "flavor" and roleplaying?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If other classes get substantial things that help them throughout an entire quest, then why should paladins be stuck w/ only a limited number of hits per rest? For "flavor?" For "roleplaying?" I'm sorry, it should be more substantial than that.

Twerpp
04-15-2008, 11:47 PM
I think Pallys shouldve gotten a 20 second action point boost of all smites! Then you guys would seriously rock!

Still no fun at parties though. :cool:

SteeleTrueheart
04-15-2008, 11:50 PM
Sorry Sigtrent but after your comments* in the DDOcast about paladins I am starting to listen to others.

I like the new enhancements as they do give some more options to Paladins and bring some flavour, but I would not even dare to consider it 'Love'. Where are my specialties ... ala WotM/WotA or Deepwood/Tempest. (And nobody point to the faith lines = 1 LoH every 10 mins.)

If you plan on it your Paladin can have a decent UMD score which is much better than using a LoH to raise someone.

Mod 7 Pally love aka. [edit: I don't like it]!

Paladins need spells like fighters need feats (which they do).
Spells:
Silverbeard (or my personal fave Shield of Warding)
Righteous Fury
Righteous Aura

Adding 3 spells would have been much more well recieved than what we have been offered.

*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." :eek: since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 01:59 AM
*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." :eek: since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

Sigh... don't make me go through this again!!! I've made many posts demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that paladins have the best AC potential in the game of any pure class character. Yes you must choose dwarf to beat out dwarven fighters, but you don't have to choose dwarf to beat non dwarven fighters.

A maxed out dwarven paladin can have an AC 4pts better than the very best dwarven fighter and for less AP points. 2 points of that is because daggertooth belt exists but the main reason is because of the paladin aura stacking with anything and everything and has not limitations like armor/shield mastery.

Here is the short version....
Things a Fighter can do a paladin can't: Tower Shield Mastery 1-3, Armor Mastery 3 (but if you go dwarf you can only use 4 pts of AM while using TSM. So you ither go with tower or a very very high dex for AM 6, either way it works out the same)

Things a Paladin can do that a Fighter Can't: 5pts of Aura of good (4pts prior to mod 7)

Paladin can get 5pts of AM via dwarf and daggertooth leaving them only 1pt shy of what a fighter can achieve via TSM or AM 6. So they end up wtih 4pts of gravy AC.

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 02:43 AM
A maxed out dwarven paladin can have an AC 4pts better than the very best dwarven fighter and for less AP points. 2 points of that is because daggertooth belt exists but the main reason is because of the paladin aura stacking with anything and everything and has not limitations like armor/shield mastery.


2 points.

Paladin uses 13 MFP(3 base + 5 dam/fam) + 7 shield + 4 aura + 8 dex = 32
Fighter uses 14 Black Dragon armor (1 base + 6 dam + fam) + 9 mts(4 base + 3 tsm) +7 dex bonus = 30

3 when mod 7 comes out.

edit: Although realistically, the fighter splashes a level or 3 of paladin and matches the paladin, while the paladin gets no ac benefit from splashing fighter.
edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?) and thus, evens up with the fighter that way.

Vormaerin
04-16-2008, 04:11 AM
edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?).

Don't see many fighters with a starting dex of 18 either unless they are elf or halfling... and thus don't have Dw Armor Mastery. It is true that most paladins are not built for absolute max AC like the example, but they could be.

SteeleTrueheart
04-16-2008, 05:54 AM
2 points.

Paladin uses 13 MFP(3 base + 5 dam/fam) + 7 shield + 4 aura + 8 dex = 32
Fighter uses 14 Black Dragon armor (1 base + 6 dam + fam) + 9 mts(4 base + 3 tsm) +7 dex bonus = 30

3 when mod 7 comes out.

edit: Although realistically, the fighter splashes a level or 3 of paladin and matches the paladin, while the paladin gets no ac benefit from splashing fighter.
edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?) and thus, evens up with the fighter that way.

Exactly.

I admit if you work REALLY hard you can have a paladin that can get about equal to a fighter in AC and surpass at a PHENOMENAL cost. Of course I wont mention the ease that fighters can get Combat expertise, you have admitted yourself that Int is the only stat a paladin can dump. That is also assuming that the Paladin has to be a dwarf and have access to a rare item and dump more important stats for dex and int vs nothing for a fighter. And any paladin who does that will absolutely suck everywhere else a paladin is supposed to shine. Add to that Intimidate is a cross class skill and your dps will lack for grabbing agro so why do you even need AC. A pure paladin who focuses on AC is shooting themselves in the foot.

Emili
04-16-2008, 06:17 AM
Well this is the way I view what is going to happen after mod 7 and a few months after... I can see some people will keep playing thier pally's ... a few withh play with the enhancements (so-called new love)... and find it's not really near the love the other classes had received... I know my pally only shows her face when a new lvl cap comes about or when I'm sure the rest of the party can handle things without her, and I can pick off the trimmings at a chance for raid loot for her;-) Compared to the number of hours of play the other classes in my account get though she's just a change to the venue on an odd day. I think most people who have multiple classes see this too... and as such they get shelved and only come out when you're really looking for something for them... I am pretty sure this is going to be much the same as it is right now.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 06:57 AM
I don't know if you remember this but Tempest, Deepwood Sniper and Arcane Archer were sort of leaked out before the devs wanted them to be. We don't know that there aren't any similar enhancements for the paladins right now. We might not know until Mod 7 is released to Risia. Even then we may not know depending on how much they want to reveal. Same goes for the spells. We didn't know about Ram's Might until close to the release to Risia.

I know we are all burnt out on the Shroud right now and are looking for something to do so we come to the forums and *****. Relax. Let's see what gets put on Risia. Actually test the stuff and THEN report back when our feelings are based upon actual use rather than pure conjecture and mathematics.

I love paladins. I deleted one of mine at 10th level because I didn't feel as if I contributed. I currently have a WF 13 P/2 F. I wanted to keep him pure but 2 extra feats and +1 STR was very hard to pass up consider we have no information about where this game is going unlike PnP where everything is spelled out in advance. I'm going to try all this stuff out and then make a decision on whether or not to delete my other paladin.

Anyway, while I was writing this I just thought about a great change to the smites that might be a little over powered but would be nice all the same. What if the enhancements add a couple of percentage points to the proc rate of the greensteel items in addition to the other crit hit benefits. That would be interesting to say the least don't you think?

gpk
04-16-2008, 10:45 AM
Personally I have no problem with the playability of my Pali as he stands or his DPS. These will add nice flavour to him. It is a RPG, not everything is about the math. I don't need to pull out a calculator and work out the DPS of these ehancements down to the 4th decimal place before I decide if I will take them or not.


Or all the silent ones who see no need to discuss as they like it as it is. The ones who have seen the Devs say this is how it will be and are happy to go with the flow. I'm sure there aer plenty on both sides.

Don't like the new enhacnements, don't use them.

Yikes, I won't even respond to it as it already has.

In any event thanks for elaborating.

Dexxaan
04-16-2008, 11:11 AM
*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." :eek: since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)

Bruttus Chaosbane - Dwarf
12 Paladin 4 Fighter
450 HP´s (24 CON - No CON Nerf)
345 SP´s (13 WIS - No WIS Nerf)
22 CHA (No Nerf either. true I did get +3 Tome but not using an enhanement to CHA which could be used)
29 STR (30 When cap Increases as Fighter 6 reached)
21 DEX (+3 Tome but with +2 of course 20 and no effect on AC due to +3)

AC: 64 Unbuffed-Undispellable ETAC. 70 vs Giants
How many Fighters do you know can reach that # without all the Armor-Class Moons lining up, Level 16 Ranger buddy casting Barkskin, Paladin friend standing by his side and dropping haste pots as Cleric recitates?

So I beg to differ.....Paladins CAN have the highest AC, the problem is most don´t know how, or plan on it beause they´ll take a 12 DEX (with +4 item...) in order to get another +1 or +2 to their saves by increasing CHA at an extremely high Attribute Point cost.

BTW if you are an unbeliever regarding the ETAC above? Please Read Paladin Forums.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 11:13 AM
Bruttus Chaosbane - Dwarf
12 Paladin 4 Fighter
450 HP´s (24 CON - No CON Nerf)
345 SP´s (13 WIS - No WIS Nerf)
22 CHA (No Nerf either. true I did get +3 Tome but not using an enhanement to CHA which could be used)
29 STR (30 When cap Increases as Fighter 6 reached)
21 DEX (+3 Tome but with +2 of course 20 and no effect on AC due to +3)

AC: 64 Unbuffed-Undispellable ETAC. 70 vs Giants
How many Fighters do you know can reach that # without all the Armor-Class Moons lining up, Level 16 Ranger buddy casting Barkskin, Paladin friend standing by his side and dropping haste pots as Cleric recitates?

So I beg to differ.....Paladins CAN have the highest AC, the problem is most don´t know how, or plan on it beause they´ll take a 12 DEX (with +4 item...) in order to get another +1 or +2 to their saves by increasing CHA at an extremely high Attribute Point cost.

BTW if you are an unbeliever regarding the ETAC above? Please Read Paladin Forums.

Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

Dexxaan
04-16-2008, 11:17 AM
Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

Agreed, but the post was to prove no nerf´s required to a Dwarven Paladin.

And also that the issue isn´t game rules and such, rather lack of planning and Build Know how.

bandyman1
04-16-2008, 11:28 AM
Dex, to be fair, he did include the exception of a dwarf splashed w/ another class, which describes the build you're talking about.

K Mhykke.

Selyra is a pure 16th level elven paladin. You've been on enough runs with Archmagi.

Is my toon gimped? Did I dump stats to the point of uselessness in order to pull her 57 AC ( without a chattering ring or seal ).

Same question with Sharwyn. I mean, I see a lot of people on the boards who say that non-dwarven pure rogues are gimped too. Does she not contribute?

I'm seriously asking bro. You've been in enough groups with me. Do I pull my weight? Or am I a non-contributer?


I agree with ya Mhykke. Pally's can use some love. But we're in total disagreement about their level of effectiveness as things stand right now.

gpk
04-16-2008, 11:39 AM
Agreed, but the post was to prove no nerf´s required to a Dwarven Paladin.

And also that the issue isn´t game rules and suh, rather lack of planning and Build Know how.

How does the paladin class specifically help you achieve higher AC? Any other AC minded build will have a higher AC in the pally aura as well. Your benefits come from multiclassing and race selection.
You rely on the very strong dwarven enhancements and base racial abilities, fighter levels not on anything that the paladin class provides (other than taking the aura with you).

If anything your examples proves a point some have been making: no reason to go past 11-12 pally levels.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 11:39 AM
K Mhykke.

Selyra is a pure 16th level elven paladin. You've been on enough runs with Archmagi Never heard of em.

Is my toon gimped Yes? Did I dump stats to the point of uselessness in order to pull her 57 AC ( without a chattering ring or seal ).

Same question with Sharwyn. I mean, I see a lot of people on the boards who say that non-dwarven pure rogues are gimped to. Does she not contribute Nope?

I'm seriously asking bro. You've been in enough groups with me. Do I pull my weight? Or am I a non-contributer Most of the times I forget you're even there!?


I agree with ya Mhykke. Pally's can use some love. But we're in total disagreement about their level of effectiveness as things stand right now.

Obviously I'm kidding w/ my responses. And I don't think we're in complete disagreement w/ the level of effectiveness of paladins. I don't think they're completely useless, which you may think that's where I'm coming from. I have a lvl 16 paladin, and i don't think he's useless.

But there is something missing when I play my high lvl paladin compared to my other classes. It just feels like there should be something more to the class at higher levels. I could've multiclassed at 11 or 12 to gain some nice abilities, but figured that a high level paladin will eventually bring something different to a party. As it stands now, they're the least desired melee class. If there's 1 melee class out of rangers/barbs/fighters/paladins that's missing on a shroud LFM, 99% of the time it'll be a paladin.

I've been vocal about it lately b/c I've been waiting for this "love" that the devs mentioned, which you and I agree they could use. I'm vocal about it b/c the changes they're proposing are severely disappointing, and now I fear that it's the extent of what they're going to do w/ the paladin class. And if that's the case, it's going to take the devs a long time to get back around to reevaluating the class.

Dexxaan
04-16-2008, 12:01 PM
If anything your examples proves a point some have been making: no reason to go past 11-12 pally levels.

There is no truer statement in all the forums. And I have supported Artvan Delete who started the why go past 11-12 thread.

Boring and Non-Spicy a pure Paladin is young padawan.

gpk
04-16-2008, 12:07 PM
▲ Mhykke Right .

Since the end of Mod3's enhancemenet redesign and pally re-adjustments (and mod4 DF cap) the other classes have gained new abilities, specifically high level abilities while we kept getting promised "wait till mod7".
Pallies have seen other classes gain helpful spells, enhancements and PrC-like enhancements that boost their effectiveness by measurable appreciable and in some cases overpowered quantities, much of it combat related. Those other classes have grown while pallies (especially pure) slipped further back in comparison.

Noone is asking for the Paladin to get overpowered enhancements liek Crit Rage, far from it. What we are asking forg is to at least get the same or slightly better (due to being further back to begin with) as say the Mod6 Ranger got.

What's been anounced so far is terribly underwhelming, we expected new spells and divine feats/enhancement to boost some areas where the pally class trails and to get new additions that reward pure paladins and charsima scores etc.

If there was a clearly laid out plan to level 20+ we wouldn't be having these posts, if we had a respec proper system we prolly wouldn't as much.
The situation being what it is demands responses from players who have taken the time to actually look at whats being proposed and see it for what it is.

The occasion high number is meaningless and terrible spell choices like Divine Sacrifice implemented in a terrible way with no regard to DDO standards is insult to injury; especially after there have been countlesss posts with actual good spell suggestions and feats.

It's been a year since the pally class started getting re-adjusted, nerfed, and ignored while other classes keep gettign strong and useful abilities, mod 7 was the promised "pally love" mod, from what the devs have told us so far it's soon to be a broken promise.

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 12:10 PM
Don't see many fighters with a starting dex of 18 either unless they are elf or halfling... and thus don't have Dw Armor Mastery. It is true that most paladins are not built for absolute max AC like the example, but they could be.

The fighters don't need an 18 starting dex? 16+2 tome + 6 item = 24 (a +7 bonus) which caps their dex for both a mts and black dragon plate.

Dexxaan
04-16-2008, 12:18 PM
The fighters don't need an 18 starting dex? 16+2 tome + 6 item = 24 (a +7 bonus) which caps their dex for both a mts and black dragon plate.

The most DEX bonus the previously mentioned Fighter can get from Black Dragonplate Armor is +4. (DWARVES EXCLUDED OF COURSE)

Hasty thread replies bring out some big whoppers dont´they......:D

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 12:20 PM
Noone is asking for the Paladin to get overpowered enhancements liek Crit Rage, far from it. What we are asking forg is to at least get the same or slightly better (due to being further back to begin with) as say the Mod6 Ranger got.

huh?

How were paladins as a class behind rangers as a class pre-Mod 6?

I'm with Bandyman on this. If your paladin isn't effective it's because you made some bad choices. My WF paladin is highly effective and I could care less about the new enhancements because I don't need them to be an asset to the party. Having said that, I'll try the new enhancements, see what's good about them, see what needs help and then make posts based on experience using them.

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 12:26 PM
The most DEX bonus the previously mentioned Fighter can get from Black Dragonplate Armor is +4. (DWARVES EXCLUDED OF COURSE)

Hasty thread replies bring out some big whoppers dont´they......:D

Who cares about non-dwarf fighters in a discussion of ac? Why don't we compare barbs with 10 base str while we're at it? It makes no sense to be talking about potential ac and to bring up non-dwarves. The point is, you're realistically 0-1 ac short of a paladin on a fighter currently(they'll both have 20-22 dex, depending on whether they went 14, 15 or 16 starting dex and if they've gotten the +3 tome yet) because the pure paladin needs to have a higher dex due to the lack of TSM.

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 12:45 PM
2 points.

Paladin uses 13 MFP(3 base + 5 dam/fam) + 7 shield + 4 aura + 8 dex = 32
Fighter uses 14 Black Dragon armor (1 base + 6 dam + fam) + 9 mts(4 base + 3 tsm) +7 dex bonus = 30

I wasn't familiar with black dragon armor, good to know.

3 when mod 7 comes out.


edit: Although realistically, the fighter splashes a level or 3 of paladin and matches the paladin, while the paladin gets no ac benefit from splashing fighter.

True, but my point remains that pure paladin can achieve the highest standing AC in a pure class. Multi classing is simply too hard to really accomidate for. And while paladin doesn't gain AC for multi classing into fighter, it does make thier AC eaiser to get via the bonus feat they pick up.



edit2: Even more realistically, the paladin doesn't have a dex of 26(I don't see many builds calling for level ups into dex or a starting dex of 18, do you?) and thus, evens up with the fighter that way.

While you don't see many doing it, it is quite possible. 16 start + 6 item, + 2 tome, +2 level up or 14 and 4 level ups or 2 and green steel etc.... lots of ways to get there. it does take planning and commitment to the goal but so does any monster AC build.

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 12:53 PM
Exactly.

I admit if you work REALLY hard you can have a paladin that can get about equal to a fighter in AC and surpass at a PHENOMENAL cost. A pure paladin who focuses on AC is shooting themselves in the foot.

Generaly true, but at least this is an accurate statement rather than saying that fighters and rangers are more capeable of a high AC. It is important to argue with the facts as your foundation.

None of what you say takes away from the simple fact that Paladin is designed to be a defensive class from stem to stern. And they do indeed have the best defenses in the game available to them. Comparing thier offense to rangers, they should come up short. Not by a huge margin but by a fairly decent one. TWF and thier Archery feats are class DPS, as is favored enemy.

Now I'm not against the spell some of you have made. A good idea in my opinion but lets try not to blow things out of proportion or make the class into something it isn't supposed to be.

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 12:57 PM
None of what you say takes away from the simple fact that Paladin is designed to be a defensive class from stem to stern. And they do indeed have the best defenses in the game available to them.


What I don't get is why, assuming the devs believe this to be true(and Eladrin, at least, does given his "pear shaped" quote) they didn't make the love defensive boosts.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 01:00 PM
What I don't get is why, assuming the devs believe this to be true(and Eladrin, at least, does given his "pear shaped" quote) they didn't make the love defensive boosts.

Now that is an excellent question.

gpk
04-16-2008, 01:10 PM
huh?

How were paladins as a class behind rangers as a class pre-Mod 6?

I'm with Bandyman on this. If your paladin isn't effective it's because you made some bad choices. My WF paladin is highly effective and I could care less about the new enhancements because I don't need them to be an asset to the party. Having said that, I'll try the new enhancements, see what's good about them, see what needs help and then make posts based on experience using them.

The overall strength of the ranger class > overall strength of the pally class melee-wise primarily due to the fact that there is very little variety in the important mobs you face; they were ahead in DPS, matched AC (surpassed w/ pally in party) and have as good if not better survivability, at least 1 less stat to pump and evasion.

It doesn't take a genius to see the pally class, especially pure, has been continually left behind while the other classes got stronger.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the enhancements aren't good; by the time you get "experience" with them it's too late to fix, replace or supplant them.

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 01:15 PM
What I don't get is why, assuming the devs believe this to be true(and Eladrin, at least, does given his "pear shaped" quote) they didn't make the love defensive boosts.

They halved the cost of your two primary defensive enhancement lines and increased the range of them by one step.
They also gave paladins the abbility to raise dead (an essentialy defensive power in line with paladin healing abbilities)

I agree its not exactly the second coming but they are defensive boosts.

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 01:18 PM
they were ahead in DPS, matched AC (surpassed w/ pally in party) and have as good if not better survivability, at least 1 less stat to pump and evasion.
.

Now look.. people rally have to stop that at least in this thread. Rangers do not have better AC than paladins and if the paladin is in party with the ranger both of them benefit pretty much equaly unless the ranger is just plain stingy.

Qwert
04-16-2008, 01:28 PM
C'mon now, we all know that it's really about taking the enhancement line, grouping with a Warchanter, and seeing how big the number can really get (so we can post it in our bio).

O wait! Maybe that's just me.

:D}

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 01:31 PM
The overall strength of the ranger class > overall strength of the pally class melee-wise primarily due to the fact that there is very little variety in the important mobs you face; they were ahead in DPS, matched AC (surpassed w/ pally in party) and have as good if not better survivability, at least 1 less stat to pump and evasion.

It doesn't take a genius to see the pally class, especially pure, has been continually left behind while the other classes got stronger.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the enhancements aren't good; by the time you get "experience" with them it's too late to fix, replace or supplant them.

You think that rangers were really that much ahead of a paladin in DPS pre-mod 6? I might buy that argument if we are talking about FEs.

As to the comment in red, it doesn't take a genius or rocket scientist to figure out that it's already to late to fix, replace or supplant what's being described in the WDA.

gpk
04-16-2008, 01:36 PM
None of what you say takes away from the simple fact that Paladin is designed to be a defensive class from stem to stern. And they do indeed have the best defenses in the game available to them. Comparing thier offense to rangers, they should come up short. Not by a huge margin but by a fairly decent one. TWF and thier Archery feats are class DPS, as is favored enemy.

Now I'm not against the spell some of you have made. A good idea in my opinion but lets try not to blow things out of proportion or make the class into something it isn't supposed to be.

Saying that the pally class is desgined to be defense is not really true, it's ok to be stronger in defense than offense but that just isn't the case. There is nothing that makes a paladin outshine other classes as far as defense is concerned either, no spells, no divine feats nothing; the base auras are easily matched (surpassed) by other class abilities and said aura applies to them as well.

A ranger gains strength with TWF and Fav enemies yes, but in DDO those are seriously boosted due to game design,strong enhancements and the addition of invented spells like Ram's Might.

In comparison, even if the Pally class is intended "defensive from the start" as you propose, nothing boosts that defense to any level that implies that is the case. It would be OK for a pally to be a very strong defensive class, but if that's the intention then give the class actual tools to make it true.

Part of the the pally strength comes from good spells and good divine feats that boost defense and a bit of offense, leaving those out is a big mistake.

I understand (I think where) some of the problems lie, it's with the erroneous perception that the pally class is somehow betterr tailored to survive when **** hits the fan; it's the perception that only "iconic" abilities, even if they are secondary or tertiary should be boosted.

Perception: LoH=iconic -> make rezzing LoH. Did anyone ask for this? Is it true to the pally class? No it's based on a false assumptions.

Perception: Smite Evil=iconic ->make fancy smites. Smite Evils are at best a secondary ability, you can call em iconic or unique but that doesn't make them a primary strong class ability. To "tweak" them in the manner they have, exalted smites and 90 second regen timer for 1 doesn't make an ounce of difference in DDO. Too few swings too far between, all it does is cater to the croud that is so impressed with the occasional high crit that they don't care if it's is a near zero contribution.

If each smite was a 6 second boost then prolly it would be useful, an actual measurable "burst" of damage.
But 6 seconds apparently "worries" some devs; funny how things only worry some devs when they are pally related. I don't recall any such worries when it came time to add very good ranger additions, let alone BBN or casters...

The reality of it is much of the strengths come from good spells, they may not be flashy, they may not be iconic but they get the job done. And again the irony is that the spells most people want to see are a straight pnp port with the exception of a longer lasting Divine Might (feat or enh).

gpk
04-16-2008, 01:40 PM
You think that rangers were really that much ahead of a paladin in DPS pre-mod 6? I might buy that argument if we are talking about FEs.

Fav Enemies make up nearly all the important mobs you face in a DDO mod, take the last 3: giants, undead, eveil outsiders. Those 3 have been typical choices since day 1 as well as they are the most numerous mob types. If there was a much larger mob vareity in DDO then I wouldn't have said it.

Add to that Ram's Might and the gap widens even more, and noone has even bothered to compare the PrC enhancements the Rangers got as the sum of all proposed pally love can't even match one little made up Ram's Might spell...



As to the comment in red, it doesn't take a genius or rocket scientist to figure out that it's already to late to fix, replace or supplant what's being described in the WDA.

LOL sarcasm aside, this is precisely WHY people are outraged, they are also hoping that there is the tiniest of chance the devs will wake up and quickly adds some very very simple spells so mod7 is not a total loss and a broken promise.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 01:46 PM
Fav Enemies make up nearly all the important mobs you face in a DDO mod, take the last 3: giants, undead, eveil outsiders. Those 3 have been typical choices since day 1 as well as they are the most numerous mob types. If there was a much larger mob vareity in DDO then I wouldn't have said it.

True to an extent but most rangers pre-mod 6, which is what we are talking about, were finesse guys except for a few people that looks at Gol and Gren's str-based dwarves and like that build but it was mostly the dwarf bonuses that people liked. Most paladins I know were rockin' khopesh to get a damage boost and were str based. I would say these factors about averaged out the DPS between the two. Not exactly but close enough for government work because remember most good pallys were casting DF every minute or two to keep their to-hit and damage up.

Add to that Ram's might and the gap widens even more. I agree that a gap opens up since RM now negates DF but that agan is a post-Mod 6 discussion.

see comments above.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 01:52 PM
Okay, the change to Smite regenning is good.

It is not good enough to make up for the lack of actual Pally Love in this MOD though.




Yes it actually is. Smites regenning every 90 seconds makes a really really big difference. Do all the math you want to but when
you see this in action and you are constantly smiting with your pally, and constantly having smites to spare I think you will stop
complaining.

My paladins were already amazing... with this update and the additional enhancements its hard to imagine even my new build being
more fun or more worthwhile.

Forget even the enhancement lines... this is the best thing to happen to pallies ever. The scale of this improvement rivals the incredible nerf of the Bulwark disaster. Then again I play with a game pad so maybe smites are more important to me that to most. I use them up pretty quickly.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 02:01 PM
Perception: Smite Evil=iconic ->make fancy smites. Smite Evils are at best a secondary ability, you can call em iconic or unique but that doesn't make them a primary strong class ability. To "tweak" them in the manner they have, exalted smites and 90 second regen timer for 1 doesn't make an ounce of difference in DDO. Too few swings too far between, all it does is cater to the croud that is so impressed with the occasional high crit that they don't care if it's is a near zero contribution.

If each smite was a 6 second boost then prolly it would be useful, an actual measurable "burst" of damage.
But 6 seconds apparently "worries" some devs; funny how things only worry some devs when they are pally related. I don't recall any such worries when it came time to add very good ranger additions, let alone BBN or casters...


This just upsets me.

A. Smite Evil is the only thing even keeping Paladin's still in this game.
B. I invite you to play with my guild, where there are a number of excellent Paladins, some still OG 28 point builds, who will put most pure fighters
and yes even tempest rangers to shame.
C. Although I would really like that 6 second boost you are talking about it would really be WAY WAY overpowering. At that point Palidins might as well be considered Barbs. with high AC. It would really be unfair in every sense.
D. You may believe that all smite contributes is the occasional high crit number, but honestly that is because you are not using the talent to its full potential. That is all.

gpk
04-16-2008, 02:01 PM
True to an extent but most rangers pre-mod 6, which is what we are talking about, were finesse guys except for a few people that looks at Gol and Gren's str-based dwarves and like that build but it was mostly the dwarf bonuses that people liked. Most paladins I know were rockin' khopesh to get a damage boost and were str based. I would say these factors about averaged out the DPS between the two. Not exactly but close enough for government work because remember most good pallys were casting DF every minute or two to keep their to-hit and damage up.


So before mod6:
Hmm lets see, 90+% of DDO important mobs =fav enemies (does anyone care about trogs?).
Without getting into racial stuff, builds and finesse etc which is not a vaild comparison, both have a khopesh.

Let's assume same str, leave TWF out of it for now, let's assume neither class misses with it's khopesh.

Pally gets +3 DF he has to cast each and every minute, ranger gets +10 permanent dmg vs fav enemies (base +cheap enh)?
That's just 1 handed not factoring in TWF, so twf that would be +20 vs +6, let's assume a pally had the dex and feats to get
same level TWF.

Now in mod6 it's +16 vs fav nme (base+enh+ram) vs still lil old +3. from DF, 1 handers.
TWF would be +32+10%(Tempest) vs +6.

If you wanna get more accurate if complex picture you can factor in haste, bard songs, recitations or madstone and stuff but for now a base comparison with base buffs will suffice.

llevenbaxx
04-16-2008, 02:07 PM
None of what you say takes away from the simple fact that Paladin is designed to be a defensive class from stem to stern. .

This is blatently false sorry. They have a few more defensive abilities than they do offensive but that about as far as it goes. The fact that they either took away(mount) or gimped on implimentation(turn/smite) thier offensive abilities might make them far more defensive in DDO but thats not how the class was designed(type-cast more like) in PnP. They have their auras and divine grace/health(throw remove disease with them I guess also). BTW healing and LOH are in no way strictly defense, they can be used just as easily for offense. Same can be said for their spells overall. They are slightly more defensive in PnP that is all, build choices not withstanding.

Factor this into this game Turbine has created highly favors offense over defense makes me think they should have been skewed tward offense also. In the endgame elite bosses/hard hitters are going to hit frequently and since mob BAB is static they can hit you with every swing. Pally in DDO should have build options that give them comperable offensive abilities to the other melee at least to the point they arent less desired in groups, becasue right now they are. They arent going to give you enough defense to change this, the days of level cap 10 are gone.:) (barring any major mob attack mechanic changes)

I would like the game to remain faithful to PnP as much as possible but you must also make the classes equally desirable for groups. This is not the current state of DDO and not becasue pallys dont have enough defense. Wouldnt even care if they gave us a spell called goats might and made it identical to rams might.:) Imo thats all we are really missing and need to change perceptions.

gfunk
04-16-2008, 02:09 PM
Okay, the change to Smite regenning is good.



That does not take into account the DPS lost from using a lower base damage weapon or the DPS gained from the "damage bonus based on your paladin level". I would think, there would still be DPS loss from the lowering of your average damage, as the Smite is only used a maximum of 8 or 9 times in a ~30 second period.

Depending on the "damage bonus based on your paladin level", there could actually be a small increase in DPS, but not enough to justify 16 APs spent on getting this enhancement.



The increase in damage percentages above are not to overall DPS, it is to that 1 swing and that 1 swing only.


I really dont get why everyone is so concerned with the paladins lower DPS. If you just want DPS, then it probably makes more sense to roll a Barbarian. A Paladin is not supposed to be all about tanking, and high DPS. Instead of barbarian stlye DPS they get the ability to heal/buff, have good saves, and generally good AC.... there has to be some tradeoff. They might not be as suitable to front line tanking, but they are way better at soloing or running in groups with less than a full complement (IMO). I think The lack of pally love comes largely from the prevelence of tank and zerg strategies, rather than an inherant problem with the class.

For me, i like questing with pally's as companions as they bump my rangers AC up from the "i get smacked around a lot by devils in the shroud" low 50's range, to a more comfortable high fifties range (yes... i know, better than 60 AC is the generally accepted shroud number, but i think i am feeling the difference).

gpk
04-16-2008, 02:11 PM
This just upsets me.
A. Smite Evil is the only thing even keeping Paladin's still in this game.

Next time you're doign a vale quest count the number of mobs, their HP and then count the number of smites you landed with the total damage output and compare. Tell me how you think the handful of swings mattered at all.



B. I invite you to play with my guild, where there are a number of excellent Paladins, some still OG 28 point builds, who will put most pure fighters
and yes even tempest rangers to shame.

Honestly that's a very poor argument to make, anyone can say that about any class or any player for any other topic of discussion. It's a very weak and very often repeated argument that doesn't mean a thing.
Take a good player on a good paladin compare it to a good player on another class and the pally falls short in may key areas.



C. Although I would really like that 6 second boost you are talking about it would really be WAY WAY overpowering. At that point Palidins might as well be considered Barbs. with high AC. It would really be unfair in every sense.

Honestly at this point 18 SWINGS in a 15 minute quest dont matter, if it's 18 rounds over 15 minutes, meaing 8 rounds max burst it can matter. Heck make it 3 seconds even, anythign where the amount of swings and duration make a real difference, not a fictional one.
Compared to what BBNs and Rangers can dish out consistently non stop, , is calling 6 second smite rounds (max of 8 in a row) overpowerd accurate ?



D. You may believe that all smite contributes is the occasional high crit number, but honestly that is because you are not using the talent to its full potential. That is all.

Jeez man I really don't wanna seem like Im' coming come down on you but there is no "talent to use to it's full potential". I can count the number of smites versus the amount of mobs with crazy HP and see that it's not even a drop in the bucket. What difference does it make at all? This isn't pnp number of mobs with pnp mob HPs, it's DDO.

And what is it with the whole gamepad argument? What does it matter? Do you think it makes your smite evils better?

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 02:16 PM
Saying that the pally class is desgined to be defense is not really true, it's ok to be stronger in defense than offense but that just isn't the case. There is nothing that makes a paladin outshine other classes as far as defense is concerned either, no spells, no divine feats nothing; the base auras are easily matched (surpassed) by other class abilities and said aura applies to them as well.

Ugh... ok I swear this is the last time I'm going to bother wtih this.......

HP: Paladins have toughness enhancements and 10 hp per level so they are up there with fighters and almost with barbarians and superior to all other classes.

Saves: Paladins have the best save profile of any class in the game due to divine grace and aura.

AC: Paladins have the best AC potential of any class in the game

Buffs: Paladins get nearly all the key divine defensive buffs most parties use. Elemental restists and deathward.

Immunities: Immune to fear and disease

Healing: Paladins can heal themselves as well as any class except cleric (or a WF arcane)

No other class can come close to having this wide array of defensive abbilities.


A ranger gains strength with TWF and Fav enemies yes, but in DDO those are seriously boosted due to game design,strong enhancements and the addition of invented spells like Ram's Might..

Rangers are a better DPS class than paladins both in PnP and in DDO. I don't see favored enemies being any better in DDO than in PnP. Most folks in PnP know the campaign before making characters. I've meta'd my FE many times.


In comparison, even if the Pally class is intended "defensive from the start" as you propose, nothing boosts that defense to any level that implies that is the case. It would be OK for a pally to be a very strong defensive class, but if that's the intention then give the class actual tools to make it true.

I can only assume you are just ignoring the actual class abbilities. Try soloing a pure fighter mid level sometime and you may begin to understand what I am talking about.


Part of the the pally strength comes from good spells and good divine feats that boost defense and a bit of offense, leaving those out is a big mistake..

All that stuff is cherry picked splat book material. The base paladin spell lsit in DDO and in D&D are pretty much the same. Nearly all of their spells are defensive.


I understand (I think where) some of the problems lie, it's with the erroneous perception that the pally class is somehow betterr tailored to survive when **** hits the fan; it's the perception that only "iconic" abilities, even if they are secondary or tertiary should be boosted.

The idea is that classes each have a different specilization and abbility. Paladins have versatile defenses. They don't really have any defensive weaknesses as where all other classes do.


Perception: LoH=iconic -> make rezzing LoH. Did anyone ask for this? Is it true to the pally class? No it's based on a false assumptions.

I've no idea if anyone aked for it but I think its great. I'd love for any/all of my characters to have an abbility like that.


Perception: Smite Evil=iconic ->make fancy smites. Smite Evils are at best a secondary ability, you can call em iconic or unique but that doesn't make them a primary strong class ability. To "tweak" them in the manner they have, exalted smites and 90 second regen timer for 1 doesn't make an ounce of difference in DDO. Too few swings too far between, all it does is cater to the croud that is so impressed with the occasional high crit that they don't care if it's is a near zero contribution.

Smite is the only offensive abbility in the class so it makes sense that it would be the focus of any improvement in paladin offense.


The reality of it is much of the strengths come from good spells, they may not be flashy, they may not be iconic but they get the job done. And again the irony is that the spells most people want to see are a straight pnp port with the exception of a longer lasting Divine Might (feat or enh).

There are tons of things in extended PnP lore. Again, I have no issue with requesting some of them be added within reason. But its the collective griping about the current improvements that I take issue with. They are good benefits that have actual in game utility.

To me its like a kid that gets a motorcycle for his birthday but throws a tantrum that its not a red BMW like his friend got. (A memory of my childhood.)

gpk
04-16-2008, 02:23 PM
They halved the cost of your two primary defensive enhancement lines and increased the range of them by one step.

Yes they're doign this to a lot of classes making it 1 AP per tier cost. It's not a pally specific thing, it's not pally specific love, it's fixing a poor design decision, other classes already had their strong enhancement lines at 1 AP per tier (fav nme for 1).



They also gave paladins the abbility to raise dead (an essentialy defensive power in line with paladin healing abbilities)
I agree its not exactly the second coming but they are defensive boosts.
Noone asked for this nor is it a good thing class-wise, it's not really helpful except to a few people with unusual play styles and groups (maybe they don't use rez shrines?)


Heck they can keep the auras the cost and way they are now if they added Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura and Divine might and noone would care.
THOSE are things that specifically address the relative shortcoming of the pally class.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 02:30 PM
So before mod6:
Hmm lets see, 90+% of DDO important mobs =fav enemies (does anyone care about trogs?).
Without getting into racial stuff, builds and finesse etc which is not a vaild comparison, both have a khopesh.

Let's assume same str, leave TWF out of it for now, let's assume neither class misses with it's khopesh.

Pally gets +3 DF he has to cast each and every minute, ranger gets +10 permanent dmg vs fav enemies (base +cheap enh)?
That's just 1 handed not factoring in TWF, so twf that would be +20 vs +6, let's assume a pally had the dex and feats to get
same level TWF.

Now in mod6 it's +16 vs fav nme (base+enh+ram) vs still lil old +3. from DF, 1 handers.
TWF would be +32+10%(Tempest) vs +6.

If you wanna get more accurate if complex picture you can factor in haste, bard songs, recitations or madstone and stuff but for now a base comparison with base buffs will suffice.

This is the problem with people that want to use math. You want to normalize the situation so that your math works instead of looking at the real factors involved.

Most rangers were/maybe still are using rapiers, shortswords and other finesse-able weapons. So you can't just put a khopesh in your equation. You have to compare a 20 to 24 STR ranger with a rapier to a 26 to 30 STR Paladin with a khopesh. You also have to factor in the higher plus to-hit that comes from the 32 to 36 Dex the ranger has while using weapon finesse.

Yes the Ranger had an edge but it could be minimized and the enhancements to get to +10 damage aren't cheap depending on what you want to do with your ranger.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 02:36 PM
Next time you're doign a vale quest count the number of mobs, their HP and then count the number of smites you landed with the total damage output and compare. Tell me how you think the handful of swings mattered at all.

Smites are do be used judiciously and not with wanton abandon. Don't expect to do the same DPS as a Barb all quest but when you hit that one tough mob all of a sudden your paladin opens up with smites..... yes then that handful of swings makes a big difference.



Honestly that's a very poor argument to make, anyone can say that about any class or any player for any other topic of discussion. It's a very weak and very often repeated argument that doesn't mean a thing.
Take a good player on a good paladin compare it to a good player on another class and the pally falls short in may key areas.

Just because you won't take the offer doesn't make it a poor argument. Every person in my guild literally plays every class in the game. And what I am telling you is that some of the best characters are paladins or paladin hybrids. It is just how it is.



Honestly at this point 18 SWINGS in a 15 minute quest dont matter, if it's 18 rounds over 15 minutes, meaing 8 rounds max burst it can matter. Heck make it 3 seconds even, anythign where the amount of swings and duration make a real difference, not a fictional one.
Compared to what BBNs and Rangers can dish out consistently non stop, , is calling 6 second smite rounds (max of 8 in a row) overpowerd accurate ?

Again you are misunderstanding the skill and what it is used for. It is a special attack reserved for special circumstances. Once you get around that in your head you will understand how decent it is before the forthcoming upgrades and how much more worthy it will be after.




Jeez man I really don't wanna seem like Im' coming come down on you but there is no "talent to use to it's full potential". I can count the number of smites versus the amount of mobs with crazy HP and see that it's not even a drop in the bucket. What difference does it make at all? This isn't pnp number of mobs with pnp mob HPs, it's DDO.

I don't really seem like I am coming down on you either but really you don't get it. You don't use smite the whole quest... end of story.



And what is it with the whole gamepad argument? What does it matter? Do you think it makes your smite evils better?

Just buy one and see. :D You have to move your mouse around or reach for a number key to smite. I don't. It really is a big difference.

gpk
04-16-2008, 02:49 PM
Ugh... ok I swear this is the last time I'm going to bother wtih this.......

HP: Paladins have toughness enhancements and 10 hp per level so they are up there with fighters and almost with barbarians and superior to all other classes.

LOL barbarians really? Even fighters don't have to spread stat points to spread around like pallies do, heck a typical ranger can have more HP than a pally because of the stat spread issue.



Saves: Paladins have the best save profile of any class in the game due to divine grace and aura.

High+ resistance items are in game, nearly all classes get more than good enough saves from items, class abilities (rage, fav nme) and spells.



AC: Paladins have the best AC potential of any class in the game

Untrue, a multiclass may have the best potential AC, other classes in the pally aura will have a betetr ac.


Buffs: Paladins get nearly all the key divine defensive buffs most parties use. Elemental restists and deathward.

4 other classes can provide elemental resists as well , deathward is hardly a selling point. Not only does a cleric do that (and mass) but a clicky does as well.



Immunities: Immune to fear and disease

Greater Hero=fear immune, when was the last tiem you saw someone run around without greater hero (Planar Gird)?
Noone ever disease except for the Pit fiend (sometimes).
Both Fear and Disease can be easily countered with a couple of not hard to get named items when you need to have non-dispellable immunity (Doomsphere? Abbot?).




Healing: Paladins can heal themselves as well as any class except cleric (or a WF arcane)

Then there are bards, rogs, any class with high UMD and cheap-ish Heal Scrolls, money is not really an issue in this game for a great many players.



No other class can come close to having this wide array of defensive abbilities.

Sure if you overvalue all those little "defensive abilities" you can make this statement.



Rangers are a better DPS class than paladins both in PnP and in DDO. I don't see favored enemies being any better in DDO than in PnP. Most folks in PnP know the campaign before making characters. I've meta'd my FE many times.

True they are a better DPS class in pnp, but you are wrong: favored enemy ability is MUCH stronger in DDO.
The gap is significantly and artificially widened in DDO which place much more importance on combat, can you not see that?

Enhancements aside, there is very little variety in importan DDO mobs, if you can't see how giant, undead and evil outsider +X covers nealry all your bases then you will never concede your point.



I can only assume you are just ignoring the actual class abbilities. Try soloing a pure fighter mid level sometime and you may begin to understand what I am talking about.

Solo really? Last I checked this was a party based game, how does solo relate?



All that stuff is cherry picked splat book material. The base paladin spell lsit in DDO and in D&D are pretty much the same. Nearly all of their spells are defensive.

Really where is my Bless Weapon? Where is my Shield Other?
Those are "chery picked" because they address specific shortcomings of the pally class in relation to how other classes were boosted. How does a made up Ram's Might fit int your equation? Mod5 metamagics?



The idea is that classes each have a different specilization and abbility. Paladins have versatile defenses. They don't really have any defensive weaknesses as where all other classes do.

They don't have any significant strengths either. Say we accept that "paladins=defense".
The difference in pally defense vs other classes is non-existant to slight.
So let's say on the other end of the spectrum "barbarians=offense", the difference between a barbarian offense versus other class offense=much bigger. The difference between bbn offense and pally offense=huge; difference between palyl defense and bbn defense=slight.
Add to that the fact that DDO places much more emphasis on offense and you get a much more realisit picture.




Smite is the only offensive abbility in the class so it makes sense that it would be the focus of any improvement in paladin offense.

Untrue, spells are offensive as well. Smites are a limited secondary ability and do not deserve any focus unles you plan on seriously making them a primary useful ability, even if only in noticeable bursts; this is not the case with what is being proposed.



There are tons of things in extended PnP lore. Again, I have no issue with requesting some of them be added within reason. But its the collective griping about the current improvements that I take issue with. They are good benefits that have actual in game utility.

Why do you take issue with the "griping" there are NOT "improvements" , they are a waste of dev time that don't address any serious issues. They don't stand up to any scrutiny, not on their own, not as a package, not in the big picture.
People SHOULD gripe, this "mod7 pally love" was a LONG time coming and it's all so terrible that's it's insulting.

The only people who seem to like it are the ones who say "oh I can get big crits!" or "oh I don't care they could have added anythign or nothign and I wouldn't care"



To me its like a kid that gets a motorcycle for his birthday but throws a tantrum that its not a red BMW like his friend got. (A memory of my childhood.)

Not at all, t's like being promised an X-Box and getting a pair of underwear instead.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 02:56 PM
Smite is the only offensive abbility in the class so it makes sense that it would be the focus of any improvement in paladin offense.


Sig, forgive me, as I'm not a big PnP'er, so I'm just asking for more info. here.

Now, ignoring the fact that today's DDO is geared more towards the offensive than the defensive,

It always seemed to me that paladins were holy warriors. It seems to me you're portraying them as strictly defensive (which may be the case, again, I'm not a PnP'er.)

I don't know if this is the correct site to use, or correct article, but I tried to find a description of paladins from WoTC. This is the page I came up with (again, could be wrong here):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a

Some excerpts which I found were contrary to today's DDO paladin:

"from superior combat ability"

"she can dish out damage as well as she can take it."

"A paladin's many supernatural abilities provide her with both offensive and defensive benefits."

"Your natural place in a party is in the front rank, where you can both take the fight to the enemy and place yourself between the opposition and the more vulnerable members of your party."

"Your paladin's combat ability provides a foundation for the party's overall fighting power"


I don't know, it just seems as though the paladin, at least in regards to this article, shouldn't just be a defensive character, secondary to everyone else, standing in the back providing buffing/healing/spells, which is what you're making it out to be.

Again, I can be wrong in all this.

gpk
04-16-2008, 03:02 PM
Smites are do be used judiciously and not with wanton abandon. Don't expect to do the same DPS as a Barb all quest but when you hit that one tough mob all of a sudden your paladin opens up with smites..... yes then that handful of swings makes a big difference.

You just don't get it do you, the tiny amount of swings don't mean squat. Even if each and every smite was a crit at 500 DMG it wouldn't even kill an Orthon. The amount of damage and uses verus the amonot of mobs and HP makes the smit evils even with 90 second regen irrelevant. Noone is interested in one shotting waterorok kobolds or Cult6 end bosses.



Just because you won't take the offer doesn't make it a poor argument. Every person in my guild literally plays every class in the game. And what I am telling you is that some of the best characters are paladins or paladin hybrids. It is just how it is.

Really I can't reply more to statments like these without risking offending you.



Again you are misunderstanding the skill and what it is used for. It is a special attack reserved for special circumstances. Once you get around that in your head you will understand how decent it is before the forthcoming upgrades and how much more worthy it will be after.

No again you are not understanding the irrelevance of it, what special circumstances? Bosses? they will laugh at your 8 smites 2 seconds appart iven if they are all crits. The rest of your party zerged off stupidly and died, how do you think your 8 little swings over 16 seconds will bail your party out versus non low level trash mobs?




I don't really seem like I am coming down on you either but really you don't get it. You don't use smite the whole quest... end of story.

LOL honeslty man if you can't add up X amount of swings over Y amount of time for Z amount of damage for W amount of APs and look at it in the scenarios where it might useful and conclude that X Y and Z are way to small to make a difference then by all means cheer on for these enhancements.



Just buy one and see. :D You have to move your mouse around or reach for a number key to smite. I don't. It really is a big difference.

I use an 10 button mouse + important hotkeys around WASD, you want me to downgrade to a gamepad?

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 03:03 PM
Sig, forgive me, as I'm not a big PnP'er, so I'm just asking for more info. here.

Now, ignoring the fact that today's DDO is geared more towards the offensive than the defensive,

It always seemed to me that paladins were holy warriors. It seems to me you're portraying them as strictly defensive (which may be the case, again, I'm not a PnP'er.)

I don't know if this is the correct site to use, or correct article, but I tried to find a description of paladins from WoTC. This is the page I came up with (again, could be wrong here):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a

Some excerpts which I found were contrary to today's DDO paladin:

"from superior combat ability"

"she can dish out damage as well as she can take it."

"A paladin's many supernatural abilities provide her with both offensive and defensive benefits."

"Your natural place in a party is in the front rank, where you can both take the fight to the enemy and place yourself between the opposition and the more vulnerable members of your party."

"Your paladin's combat ability provides a foundation for the party's overall fighting power"


I don't know, it just seems as though the paladin, at least in regards to this article, shouldn't just be a defensive character, secondary to everyone else, standing in the back providing buffing/healing/spells, which is what you're making it out to be.

Again, I can be wrong in all this.

"Combat Ability" does not merely mean your ability to hit things with a sword. It also means your ability to create strong tactics, find weakness
in the enemy, increase the strength of your party in combat, defend against attacks. The list goes on and on.

So yes, you are incorrect in seeing "Combat Ability" from one perspective rather than from the perspective of the complete battle. However you are also incorrect in seeing the DDO style paladin as a purely defensive character, nor is the poster you are quoting making it out to be so. The paladin is instead, a divine fighter, with a stronger defense than normal.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 03:08 PM
"Combat Ability" does not merely mean your ability to hit things with a sword. It also means your ability to create strong tactics, find weakness
in the enemy, increase the strength of your party in combat, defend against attacks. The list goes on and on.

So yes, you are incorrect in seeing "Combat Ability" from one perspective rather than from the perspective of the complete battle.

Ok, but you ignored the "dishing out damage" quote or the "offensive benefits" quote.


However you are also incorrect in seeing the DDO style paladin as a purely defensive character, nor is the poster you are quoting making it out to be so.

He's not? Then what does this quote imply? To me, stem to stern means the whole thing.




None of what you say takes away from the simple fact that Paladin is designed to be a defensive class from stem to stern

gpk
04-16-2008, 03:09 PM
Sig, forgive me, as I'm not a big PnP'er, so I'm just asking for more info. here.

Now, ignoring the fact that today's DDO is geared more towards the offensive than the defensive,

It always seemed to me that paladins were holy warriors. It seems to me you're portraying them as strictly defensive (which may be the case, again, I'm not a PnP'er.)

I don't know if this is the correct site to use, or correct article, but I tried to find a description of paladins from WoTC. This is the page I came up with (again, could be wrong here):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a

Some excerpts which I found were contrary to today's DDO paladin:

"from superior combat ability"

"she can dish out damage as well as she can take it."

"A paladin's many supernatural abilities provide her with both offensive and defensive benefits."

"Your natural place in a party is in the front rank, where you can both take the fight to the enemy and place yourself between the opposition and the more vulnerable members of your party."

"Your paladin's combat ability provides a foundation for the party's overall fighting power"


I don't know, it just seems as though the paladin, at least in regards to this article, shouldn't just be a defensive character, secondary to everyone else, standing in the back providing buffing/healing/spells, which is what you're making it out to be.

Again, I can be wrong in all this.

No you're not wrong.

Some people are trying to pigeon hole the class one way, the devs another and neither of those 2 is putting things into proper context.
They are ignoring how the game has changed over time, how other classes have progressed and how much relative value DDO is placing on offense rather than defense and how other classes have progressed in those areas as well.

Some are bringing in some preconceived notions from other game (cough Blizzard) as well as from their own brand of PnP sessions.

Gunga
04-16-2008, 03:10 PM
Sig, forgive me, as I'm not a big PnP'er, so I'm just asking for more info. here.

Now, ignoring the fact that today's DDO is geared more towards the offensive than the defensive,

It always seemed to me that paladins were holy warriors. It seems to me you're portraying them as strictly defensive (which may be the case, again, I'm not a PnP'er.)

I don't know if this is the correct site to use, or correct article, but I tried to find a description of paladins from WoTC. This is the page I came up with (again, could be wrong here):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a

Some excerpts which I found were contrary to today's DDO paladin:

"from superior combat ability"

"she can dish out damage as well as she can take it."

"A paladin's many supernatural abilities provide her with both offensive and defensive benefits."

"Your natural place in a party is in the front rank, where you can both take the fight to the enemy and place yourself between the opposition and the more vulnerable members of your party."

"Your paladin's combat ability provides a foundation for the party's overall fighting power"


I don't know, it just seems as though the paladin, at least in regards to this article, shouldn't just be a defensive character, secondary to everyone else, standing in the back providing buffing/healing/spells, which is what you're making it out to be.

Again, I can be wrong in all this.

I've interpreted the same quotes that you've posted as meaning this is a tank that can stand toe-to-toe in combat and kill stuff. Nothing above suggests that a pali can kill stuff faster than a ranger barbarian or rogue. "superior combat ability" doesn't only mean offense or dps. I think sig is right on track here.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 03:15 PM
I've interpreted the same quotes that you've posted as meaning this is a tank that can stand toe-to-toe in combat and kill stuff. Nothing above suggests that a pali can kill stuff faster than a ranger barbarian or rogue. "superior combat ability" doesn't only mean offense or dps. I think sig is right on track here.

Please point out where I suggested that paladins should kill faster than a rogue or barbarian. In fact, can anyone post a quote from anyone suggesting that paladins should be the #1 dps in the game?


Again, combat ability is just one of the quotes, and fine if we want to interpret it to include more things than killing an enemy. There's another one in there about damage, which is what we're discussing, and people conveniently ignore.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 03:18 PM
You just don't get it do you, the tiny amount of swings don't mean squat. Even if each and every smite was a crit at 500 DMG it wouldn't even kill an Orthon. The amount of damage and uses verus the amonot of mobs and HP makes the smit evils even with 90 second regen irrelevant. Noone is interested in one shotting waterorok kobolds or Cult6 end bosses.

We are obviously playing different games. Or building characters differently. :D



Really I can't reply more to statments like these without risking offending you.

There is really nothing you can say to offend me as any statement against the competency of myself or my guild are jests at best.



No again you are not understanding the irrelevance of it, what special circumstances? Bosses? they will laugh at your 8 smites 2 seconds appart iven if they are all crits. The rest of your party zerged off stupidly and died, how do you think your 8 little swings over 16 seconds will bail your
party out versus non low level trash mobs?

I can't tell you how many times my pallies have saved the day in pugs who zerged off and died and left me to kill a boss on my own with my lousy smites. LOL. Oh and in those instances, after I killed the boss... i rezed them all.




LOL honeslty man if you can't add up X amount of swings over Y amount of time for Z amount of damage for W amount of APs and look at it in the scenarios where it might useful and conclude that X Y and Z are way to small to make a difference then by all means cheer on for these enhancements.




.......

*edit
Ok how is this for a solution? Don' take the enhancements, and delete your paladin. Stop complaining, and all of us who still find our characters to be effective can enjoy our new class buffs an you can find another class to complain about? Where was the whining and griping before the added benefits paladin's will be receiving in the new mod. Who complains about bonuses? Really who does that?



I use an 11 button mouse + important hotkeys around WASD, you want me to downgrade to a gamepad?

My gamepad has 15 buttons + 1 button reserved for a modifier key. LOL you are good at math how is that a downgrade? 15 times 2 = what? That is not including the analog controls for movement and camera control. Way back in the day during the period which which D&D is based might made right. Now, however, it is knowledge and research not force (be it through action or aggressive language).

gpk
04-16-2008, 03:24 PM
I can't tell you how many times my pallies have saved the day in pugs who zerged off and died and left me to kill a boss on my own with my lousy smites. LOL. Oh and in those instances, after I killed the boss... i rezed them all.

LMAO what boss? Cult6 Fire Reaver on Normal whith the old smites?

What mid-high level boss can ALL the new smites, ALL crits can you kill let alone tickle?



My gamepad has 15 buttons + 1 button reserved for a modifier key. LOL you are good at math how is that a downgrade? 15 times 2 = what? That is not including the analog controls for movement and camera control. Way back in the day during the period which which D&D is based might made right. Now, however, it is knowledge and research not force (be it through action or aggressive language).

Hmm how many keys+mouse with how many modifiers do i have available to me? Honestly preaching gamepads to PC gamers is like Mac users trying to tell you they have more and better games...

Gunga
04-16-2008, 03:25 PM
Please point out where I suggested that paladins should kill faster than a rogue or barbarian. In fact, can anyone post a quote from anyone suggesting that paladins should be the #1 dps in the game?


Again, combat ability is just one of the quotes, and fine if we want to interpret it to include more things than killing an enemy. There's another one in there about damage, which is what we're discussing, and people conveniently ignore.

I didn't ignore that at all. As I said, A pali can stand toe-to-toe with an enemy (suggesting he or she has defensive capability) and kill it (suggesting he or she can damage it). About the dps, there are many posts in this thread about the minute effect the smite enhancements will make. Would you consider smite to enhance dps?

Gunga
04-16-2008, 03:27 PM
LMAO what boss? Cult6 Fire Reaver on Normal whit the old smites?

[quote=Accelerando;1668260]
What mid-high level boss can ALL the new smites, ALL crits can you kill let alone tickle?




Hmm how many keys+mouse with how many modifies do i have availble to me? Honestly preaching gamepads to PC gamers is like um Mac users trying to tell you they have better games...

A pali has potential for better survivability than any other class against every boss, with more than enough dps to kill it.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 03:28 PM
He's not? Then what does this quote imply? To me, stem to stern means the whole thing.
Defensive class does not mean stand there with a shield and look pretty.

gpk
04-16-2008, 03:50 PM
*edit
Ok how is this for a solution? Don' take the enhancements, and delete your paladin. Stop complaining, and all of us who still find our characters to be effective can enjoy our new class buffs an you can find another class to complain about? Where was the whining and griping before the added benefits paladin's will be receiving in the new mod. Who complains about bonuses? Really who does that?

Some players will ALWAYS find their characters "effective" no matter what, they would be happy with anything or nothing at all even.

LOL bonuses? If you can't see how those "bonuses" are so small that they don't matter then god help us; by all means continue to enjoy your character while everyone else gets real changes and additions that keep up with the game while you are left behind some more. I guess a year of nerfs and neglect while simultaenouesly boosting other classes doesn't bother you.

If you get a 2$ bonus at the end of the year (after you got a pay cut) while your co-workers got a raise and a 500$ bonus, would you be happy? You ALL did the same job after all and had the same base salary.
You can enjoy your two buck "bonus" if you so wish, I on the other hand would find it insulting and would "complain", especially if the boss promised me a big fat bonus.

The question you should ask is who on earth would be HAPPY with the 2 dollar bonus? really who!?

Gunga
04-16-2008, 03:54 PM
Some players will ALWAYS find their characters "effective" no matter what, they would be happy with anything or nothing at all even.

LOL bonuses? If you can't see how those "bonuses" are so small that they don't matter then god help us; by all means continue to enjoy your character while everyone else gets real changes and additions that keep up with the game while you are left behind.

If you get a 2$ bonus at the end of the year while your co-workers got 500$ would you be happy? You can enjoy your two buck "bonus" if you so wish, I on the other hand would find it insulting and would "complain".

I'll take any bonus if I'm happy with the salary. If you're not happy with your compensation, get a new job.

Aesop
04-16-2008, 03:57 PM
I'll take any bonus if I'm happy with the salary. If you're not happy with your compensation, get a new job.

Nope renegotiate the contract if then unhappy get a new job... but in this case it woud drive people from the game... so keep negotiating and find the balance that keeps all parties happy

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 04:05 PM
Sig, forgive me, as I'm not a big PnP'er, so I'm just asking for more info. here.
Now, ignoring the fact that today's DDO is geared more towards the offensive than the defensive,


I'm just dealing wtih the rules of the game here. The flavor description of classes is meant to be inspiring and exciting and not a dry rendition of their actual class abbilities.

Paladins in the players handbook basicaly have 3 things going for them in offense
1: Smite Evil (works a lot like it does in DDO)
2: Divine Favor and Prayer spells (almost exactly like they are in ddo)
3: Full BAB (exaclty like in DDO)

Note: They have special mounts in PnP. It is hard to say if that is offense or not. A mount can attack but thier mount's don't get a lot of special offensive abbilities and they tend not to be used a whole bunch since many adventures take place in buildings and dungeons. Many other classes also have pets of various sorts but none of them are in DDO

Thats it. Everything else they do is defense and healing. (I consider healing a type of defense.) They have lots of special abbilities that are mostly geared to staying a live and keeping others alive. Functionaly the class in DDO is very simmilar to the class in PnP. The spells people are talking about are from the numerous expansions to the game. Nothing wrong wtih that but the players handbook really defines the class rolls and authors of expansions generaly put thier own spin on things.

Paladins are largely designed to be a defensive combat class. Their greatest strenghts are all defensive. What they have that other classes don't are amost all defensive powers. Those are just the plain facts of the rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

Mike_Ivory
04-16-2008, 04:21 PM
I use an 10 button mouse + important hotkeys around WASD, you want me to downgrade to a gamepad?

Seems like we got another Billy Mitchell on our hands here, omg 10 button mouse? You must get get DDO kill screens daily. Bravo sir, Bravo!

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 04:25 PM
LMAO what boss? Cult6 Fire Reaver on Normal whith the old smites?

What mid-high level boss can ALL the new smites, ALL crits can you kill let alone tickle?
If that is what you are experiencing I understand your ire. Best to reroll.





Hmm how many keys+mouse with how many modifiers do i have available to me? Honestly preaching gamepads to PC gamers is like Mac users trying to tell you they have more and better games...
Not as many with the same speed for a melee character unless you three hands. Not even close. Trust me I know I play my sorc all keyboard, no mouse.
You have 11 buttons on your mouse, wasd for movement + qe for strafe (nullified by my analog sticks), then what? take your hand off the mouse to hit num pad controls? Stop moving to hit any of the keys surrounding WASD (r,t,f,g,c,x,z,1,2,3,4,5) I have 30 actions available to me instantly. Everything is right there and I can still keep moving. Sorry dude your keyboard just doesn't add up for this game, it is not an FPS.

JosephKell
04-16-2008, 04:36 PM
That wasn't what I read. Exaulted smite does not cost 16 ap, its 6 for the line up to version 3. He also mentioned the extra damage it mentions, which to me just seems to be base damage. The only way it costs you 16 is if you buy extra smite 4 and exaulted 3. If you are comparing that you pretty much have to compare smite damage to no smite damage for 16 points because without it you have both less smites and they crit less effectively.

Personaly I think 12 points (extra smite 4 is not worth while IMO) for 7 shots an extra 130pt average is pretty decent for a melee character. Its not the best enhancement ever, but its not bad either.To get Exalted Smite III you need all the previous Exalted Smites and Extra Smite IV.

So that is indeed 16 action points. Extra Smite IV takes a total of 10 (for 1 through 4) and Exalted Smites I through III are 6 more.

However, there are a lot of other paladin enhancements that I have only taken because I needed to spend points go unlock higher enhancements.

It is also worth pointing out that the Exalted Smite enhancements have been updated to give an additional smite attempt each. So taking those 7 enhancements grants a total of +11 smites. So a Paladin 14 would have 14 Smite Attempts per rest (and every 90 seconds a smite recharges). That's pretty impressive if you ask me.

I do think that it would be nice if Turbine would explain the recharge period better. Does the 90 seconds mean that every 90 seconds that the Paladin has less than the maximum number of smites one will recover? Or only 90 seconds that don't include a usage of Smite Evil/Exalted Smite will regenerate one?

I remain in the hopeful camp.

Gunga
04-16-2008, 04:54 PM
Wow. Nice, Sig. I'm not sure how much more wisdom you can impart upon those here just to argue, though. To them, I like to say, "Those new Pali enhancements really are great."

Gunga
04-16-2008, 05:08 PM
After reading this rebuttal to Sig's well thought out, point-by-point deconstruction of your argument, I think your bonus is disproportionate to your performance.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 05:39 PM
Without further going into argument, would people think this is a fair comparison of ehancements/abilities/spells given to the classes:

Shortly before and after mod release, looking to see how many "builds" people are posting, how many are rolling that character after/because of the changes, and how much discussion on use (not arguments on whether or not the changes were good) on the changes in the respective class forums?

I know that warchanter/spellsinger/virtuoso has a number of people talking builds on the bard forums.

Tempest/Sniper has a number of people discussing builds in the ranger forums.

Obviously barb crit range has a number of people considering optimal class splits in the barb forums to get this enhancement.

Edit - forgot to mention the way of lines for rogues, also having discussions/people talking on the rogue forums.

What will be the results of the paladin changes? Will we see people starting paladins b/c of them? Will we see people on the forums posting builds, discussing the new changes that they're now using like people did w/ the specialties to bard, ranger, or barb? Will we see people discussing optimal class splits so they eek out a new level of exalted smite? Will people be suggesting to go 14 pally to pick up ES III?

Gunga
04-16-2008, 05:46 PM
Without further going into argument, would people think this is a fair comparison of ehancements/abilities/spells given to the classes:

Shortly before and after mod release, looking to see how many "builds" people are posting, how many are rolling that character after/because of the changes, and how much discussion on use (not arguments on whether or not the changes were good) on the changes in the respective class forums?

I know that warchanter/spellsinger/virtuoso has a number of people talking builds on the bard forums.

Tempest/Sniper has a number of people discussing builds in the ranger forums.

Obviously barb crit range has a number of people considering optimal class splits in the barb forums to get this enhancement.

What will be the results of the paladin changes? Will we see people starting paladins b/c of them? Will we see people on the forums posting builds, discussing the new changes that they're now using like people did w/ the specialties to bard, ranger, or barb? Will we see people discussing optimal class splits so they eek out a new level of exalted smite?

If we take this approach to the discussion, I can say that when I started playing in Jan 06, my first toon was a Pali. I liked the idea of being able to heal, being fully armored and able to fight. I got what I was looking for, but found that my build was off. I did not roll a ranger until the latest ranger improvements. This is just my experience, but might be the exact opposite of what your post was insinuating. Point being, If you're satisfied with playing a defensive fighting class, than you're probably happy with the paladin class and glad to see any improvement. If you're trying to make a pali into something else, you'll likely be unsatisfied with any improvement, regardless how dramatic the change is.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 05:49 PM
If we take this approach to the discussion, I can say that when I started playing in Jan 06, my first toon was a Pali. I liked the idea of being able to heal, being fully armored and able to fight. I got what I was looking for, but found that my approach (build) was off. I did not roll a ranger until the latest ranger improvements. This is just my experience, but might be the exact opposite of what your post was insinuating.

I'm not sure I understand...

I was basically asking whether people think a fair measure would be to examine the, for lack of a better term, excitement the new enhancements create, as well as how much importance the new enhancements bring to the class, in terms of drawing people to those enhancements.

Will someone who didn't have a paladin before see these enhancements and think "hmm, cool, I have a couple ideas for builds using this, let me try it out." Or if someone posts a build on the forums that's, say, 11P/5f, will he get the reaction of "try and get paladin to 14 for ESIII."

sigtrent
04-16-2008, 05:52 PM
Shortly before and after mod release, looking to see how many "builds" people are posting, how many are rolling that character after/because of the changes, and how much discussion on use (not arguments on whether or not the changes were good) on the changes in the respective class forums?

I think it is a fair way to look at the issue, certainly.


I know that warchanter/spellsinger/virtuoso has a number of people talking builds on the bard forums.?

Virtuoso is pretty much a dud and no one makes a bard to be a spellsinger, it's just the obviouse bardish choice, kind of like way of the mechanic is for a rogue. Warchanter is pretty cool, although there were plenty of bards complaining about the prerequisites and whether the song was any good or not. (generaly it isn't terribly usefull but the +1/+2 is pretty nice)


Tempest/Sniper has a number of people discussing builds in the ranger forums..?

Tempest is amazing. Sniper is about as good as smite is imo. Arcane archer... pretty bad really, worse than the paladin enhancmeents.



Obviously barb crit range has a number of people considering optimal class splits in the barb forums to get this enhancement..

It's amazing, no doubt.


What will be the results of the paladin changes? Will we see people starting paladins b/c of them? Will we see people on the forums posting builds, discussing the new changes that they're now using like people did w/ the specialties to bard, ranger, or barb? Will we see people discussing optimal class splits so they eek out a new level of exalted smite? Will people be suggesting to go 14 pally to pick up ES III?

I'll be making some. I've already done one in fact, and I will likely do more. The new paladin enhancemetns are not as good as warchanter, crit rage or tempest so you won't see as many builds with them. I would expect a fair number will take advantage of the cheaper aura (usualy the upper levels were not worth the cost) and the raise dead abbility (it's perfect for a paladin I've been meaning to design.)

Gunga
04-16-2008, 05:58 PM
I'm not sure I understand...

I was basically asking whether people think a fair measure would be to examine the, for lack of a better term, excitement the new enhancements create, as well as how much importance the new enhancements bring to the class, in terms of drawing people to those enhancements.

Will someone who didn't have a paladin before see these enhancements and think "hmm, cool, I have a couple ideas for builds using this, let me try it out." Or if someone posts a build on the forums that's, say, 11P/5f, will he get the reaction of "try and get paladin to 14 for ESIII."

Gotcha. I just rolled up a Pali/Ranger/Fighter build last night, based on the new enhancements for rangers and palis. Pretty psyched about it actually.

Mhykke
04-16-2008, 05:58 PM
I'll be making some.

Now don't just go making builds to prove a point! ;)

Mike_Ivory
04-16-2008, 06:22 PM
Gotcha. I just rolled up a Pali/Ranger/Fighter build last night, based on the new enhancements for rangers and palis. Pretty psyched about it actually.

please dont steal my builds, for shame

Serpent
04-16-2008, 07:37 PM
I might have missed it, but what do people actually think will be the roll of paladins after this is implemented. Will they still be tier three dps, will they jump to first? Are they going to be more of a support character. I'm not sure what people are actually expecting them to be, all I can tell is who likes new enhancements and who doesn't.

Gunga
04-16-2008, 09:19 PM
please dont steal my builds, for shame

Lies.

Vormaerin
04-16-2008, 09:31 PM
You know the discussion is really making progress when the stupid analogies start dominating the conversation....

I don't think there is anyone who thinks the paladin's enhancements are 'wow, omg, now I rock like a barb!' They are nice, but how nice really depends on matters of playstyle. The faster pace you play at, the less valuable they are because they are almost all based on cooldowns. Since the largest group of players tends to play very fast, they are pretty weak for them. Its the same argument with death attack for the assassin kit. It is mainly beneficial for a playstyle most players don't use and its tied to a somewhat buggy base action (stealth in that case, smite evil in this). This doesn't mean its worthless. It just means its not worth it to you.

I get really tired of these arguments that boil down to "I play a certain way that makes this stuff useless and since everyone I play with plays that way, that must mean its useless to everyone, including all the people I don't play with." It shows in arguments like "I have tons of phat lewt so the fact that paladins don't need that kind of phat lewt is pointless." Or in this post in another discussion where some guy ripped 90% of the high end unique loot as worthless because there was some better piece of loot somewhere in the game. As if everyone has every piece of gear to choose from... Frankly, its tiresome listening to the same couple people spam every thread with variations of "if you don't play like I do and want the same things I do, you are an idiot" as their principal argument.

I'd like to see some "Way of" pseudo prestige classes included, certainly. We've seen no new spells for anyone yet in the WDA. I'd be surprised if that continued, so I expect to see some paladin spells added (as well as others). I'm not going to bawl like a snot nosed brat if I don't get them and I'm not going to bother listening to the so called 'reasoning' of those who are already bawling. Sadly, they might have a point somewhere but its just not worth the aggravation of dealing with their childish attitude to find out if it exists.

Vormaerin
04-16-2008, 09:38 PM
I might have missed it, but what do people actually think will be the roll of paladins after this is implemented. Will they still be tier three dps, will they jump to first? Are they going to be more of a support character. I'm not sure what people are actually expecting them to be, all I can tell is who likes new enhancements and who doesn't.

They are getting a variety of small boosts, but none of them will substantively change their relative status in a typical end game elite run and gun sort of gameplay environment. Without further changes they are still going to be low end dps with a lot of support abilities that the wealthy just use UMD for. If you aren't playing in that milieu, they'll get a more significant bump but still be best suited for tank (as in 'stand there and take it') duties with some significant burst damage capability probably best used to grab initial aggro in big fights.

Kistilan
04-16-2008, 09:58 PM
I'll admit I skipped a lot of posts. I read the first page. I'm not going to comment on the dynamics of the actual numbers or whether it's worth spending APs for one smite over another, etc.

However, I am one of those guys that goes back to the PnP reference on almost everything. Paladins, as a class, were never really supposed to be your DPS guys. The Paladin was the guy you kept near the front with the other warriors and when you got to the end EVIL guy, you sent him up as the "main tank" in MMORPG terms to 1. Get Agro 2. Lay down the law in smites and other useful Paladin Tricks.
Everyone else supported the Paladin at this point, and if he got taken out, you knew things were bad because typically it was a magic taking him out and the fighters had even lower saves than the paladin.

I think the enhancements fit well with what they're supposed to be able to do. The only bad thing is a RAID Boss really isn't affected by a Paladin's smites nearly as much as a regular boss. An Epic Smite (x25 crit in raid only?) at level 20 might do a Paladin justice then.

Paraphrased Intro to Second Edition: "You've run out arrows, the Paladin is down and might be dead, the clerics are both out of healing spells and a pack of angry goblins is about to break down the door. What do you do..."

SteeleTrueheart
04-16-2008, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart

*("Pallies can get the best AC in the game.." since when? without fighters/dwarven armor mastery or enough int to get combat expertise or enough dex etc. Fighters, Rangers and even Rogues regularly have better AC than paladins. The only paladin that can get a decent AC is one that is dwarven, splashed other classes and has tanked either wisdom, con or charisma and relies on items to raise them to a half-decent level)


Bruttus Chaosbane - Dwarf
12 Paladin 4 Fighter
450 HP´s (24 CON - No CON Nerf)
345 SP´s (13 WIS - No WIS Nerf)
22 CHA (No Nerf either. true I did get +3 Tome but not using an enhanement to CHA which could be used)
29 STR (30 When cap Increases as Fighter 6 reached)
21 DEX (+3 Tome but with +2 of course 20 and no effect on AC due to +3)

AC: 64 Unbuffed-Undispellable ETAC. 70 vs Giants
How many Fighters do you know can reach that # without all the Armor-Class Moons lining up, Level 16 Ranger buddy casting Barkskin, Paladin friend standing by his side and dropping haste pots as Cleric recitates?

So I beg to differ.....Paladins CAN have the highest AC, the problem is most don´t know how, or plan on it beause they´ll take a 12 DEX (with +4 item...) in order to get another +1 or +2 to their saves by increasing CHA at an extremely high Attribute Point cost.

BTW if you are an unbeliever regarding the ETAC above? Please Read Paladin Forums.


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You just proved my point ENTIRELY even after posting my quote.
What did I say you have to do as a paladin to get the same AC as a fighter?

1. Be a dwarf --- yep you are.

2. Splashed other classes --- yep you took 4 levels of fighter and plan to take 2 more levels of fighter when you level up.

3. Tank either WIS, CON, or CHA and rely on items to raise them to a half-decent level.
--- You are boasting a 13 Wis (probably that is with an item or a high level tome. Your high SP total also obviously comes from a Shroud Raid Item... I know I have one to and it is an easy 200SP at only level 2 and gives me a true res clicky. Because of this I advocate that Wis can now be semi tanked) = tanked score
--- 22 CHA (with a +3 tome and a +6 item = base 13 I bet you are using paladin charisma I at least so you have a 12 base charisma) = semi tanked score since your -2 dwarf racial penalty really hurts here. On a non dwarf it would have been a 14 base a nice minimum.
--- 29 Str (+6 item, +4 levels, +1 fighters str and probably an unknown tome I am guessing a +3 since you specifically said you need fighter level 6 to raise it 1 more point. ie. You are not trying to get a +3 tome to raise it. = base 15) = not exactly tanked but not very high either.
--- 24 Con (+6 item, +3 dwarf enhance, +2 racial and an unkown tome = base 10-13, plus you use minos legens, dwarven toughness and paladin toughness and maybe even a raid hp item -GFL at least- to get to 450hp) = tanked score

YOU PROVED MY POINT EXACTLY.

Now what is your Dex and Int? Breakdown your AC and lets see how many raid items that uses.
A fighter doesnt have to tank his Int and is therefore able to have Combat Expertise.
Combat Expertise = Mod 7 Bulwark of Good IV. and since a fighter will have a better STR he can afford the loss of Attack bonus.

Even if a pure paladin focuses on AC and achieves a high level what does he do? Intimidate is cross class and his DPS will suck. He stands there and survives due to being ignored by mobs. If your paladin is not meaningfully adding to DPS you are wasting space in the party.

Paladin is Defensive?

I have shown you (with Dexx's help) to what lengths a dwarven paladin has to go to get a decent AC. (Personally I hate dwarves so I have no hope of ever reaching those AC heights)

But Palis have good saves you say... even better with 2 levels of Rogue or upcoming monk (Evasion rocks with a high reflex save) = splashed. Or alternatively any class with 2 levels of Pali have almost as good saves. There seems to be a level that means you only fail on a 1 and higher != better. Resistance of Good IV has not yet been announced btw.
__________________________________

My pure paladin is my original 28 point build who I built when I knew nothing about the game. Thanks to a few +3/+2 tomes and a lot of greater banes he is still highly effective and so I will not delete him. He is my favourite and he is useful in parties, but he is grumpy because:

Exalted smite. Has the stupid extra smite enhancements as prerequisites. Extra Smite I gives you 1 extra smite per rest and costs 1AP. Extra Smite IV gives you 1 extra smite per rest and costs 4AP. Same gain different cost... that is stupid. Exalted III requires Extra Smite IV for a really small benefit on 8 swings per rest I have to spend 7AP. LOL, yes and BoG IV at 8AP was a good idea at the time too (not!).

LoH converts to Raise Dead. Yippee I can raise a total of 4 times per rest instead of dropping the cleric back at the shrine to res himself and do the work for me. I would have rather had Divine Vitality so I could give the cleric back the SP to do the ressurecting.

Lets not talk about Divine Sacrifice and its ridiculous prereqs and ineffectual dps addition. DSIII does look OK but the prereqs = too expensive. Does anyone use vicious weapons? You know why not? Exactly, Anything that reduces my HP is a bad thing and anything that increases my DPS is a good thing. DS does both making it no net gain. That is why DS will rarely be used as well.

These enhancements are icing... I want my cake first.
___________________________________

Paladin uniqueness vs fighter and barbarian = Aura and spells

If they really wanted to enhance the Paladins survivability they should focus on his Aura. Give it new abilities. A DR aura. A HP regen aura, an attack bonus aura, a damage bonus aura, a skill inspiring aura... whatever. It is unique to the paladin class, enhance it.

Spells. Righteous Fury = happy paladin community. If this was a level 4 spell how many builds would suddenly require Paladin 14 instead of 11? This 1 spell would have been better received than all the enhancements so far announced. I really hope to eat my bitter words when the week before release this spell is suddenly revealed (ala rams might), but I am not holding my breath.
______________

As an aside I used to think gpk was a bit of a whiner and really obnoxious. Now I dont think it really is whining any more so I am starting to listen when you speak. Your still obnoxious ;)

gpk
04-16-2008, 10:04 PM
As an aside I used to think gpk was a bit of a whiner and really obnoxious. Now I dont think it really is whining any more so I am starting to listen when you speak. Your still obnoxious ;)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

The_Mighty_Cube
04-17-2008, 10:10 AM
*the Cube slides into threat range. Discussions with insults are tasty tasty tasty to the Cube*

Yaga_Nub
04-17-2008, 12:47 PM
*the Cube slides into threat range. Discussions with insults are tasty tasty tasty to the Cube*

Oh cubious one, gpk laughed at the insult and the poster even put the ;) by his insult to show he was just joking.

Is someone feeling some hunger pains today? :)

Aspenor is around here somewhere and I fully give you permission to eat any of his posts.

gpk
04-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Well ya I thought it was hilarious; it's not what brought the cube in is it?
I thought it mighta someone else who got another thread locked, but I can't read that person's posts...

SteeleTrueheart
04-17-2008, 08:26 PM
I hope it wasn't my post as it was all done in jest. Since I dont have anyone on my ignore list I dont really see any other post that may have incurred the jelly wrath.

/apologies to anyone who may have thought it was offensive in any way shape or form and sicked the Jello on me.

sigtrent
04-17-2008, 10:22 PM
I hope it wasn't my post as it was all done in jest. Since I dont have anyone on my ignore list I dont really see any other post that may have incurred the jelly wrath.


The cube has been highly sensitive as of late. Honestly though, I though folks were going a little personal myself. Smilies only go so far, its best to use friendly words as well as freindly pictograms.

Hopefully we have appeased the gods. Its a pretty good thread IMO.

I'm going to do a couple of builds inspired by the thread just to kind of demonstrate where you can take the class if you want to.
One is a max ac paladin or at least a stab at one (splaishing a level of fighter to snag intimidate though)
The other is a full on healing and support paladin

The defensive one is the harder of the two to make and does require some pretty serious gear, but its a proof of concept.

SteeleTrueheart
04-17-2008, 10:31 PM
The cube has been highly sensitive as of late. Honestly though, I though folks were going a little personal myself. Smilies only go so far, its best to use friendly words as well as freindly pictograms.

Hopefully we have appeased the gods. Its a pretty good thread IMO.

I'm going to do a couple of builds inspired by the thread just to kind of demonstrate where you can take the class if you want to.
One is a max ac paladin or at least a stab at one (splaishing a level of fighter to snag intimidate though)
The other is a full on healing and support paladin

The defensive one is the harder of the two to make and does require some pretty serious gear, but its a proof of concept.

I would like to see that build.

However I would suggest you then also do a fighter build with 1or2 levels of paladin to be able to compare the cost/benefit.

axebender
04-17-2008, 10:33 PM
gelatinous cube as a playable race what?...time too reroll my pally