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View Full Version : Divine Sacrafice and Exalted Smite: Is it worth it?



RavenStormclaw
04-14-2008, 11:30 AM
Here's my thought and my question. Do you think that Exhalted Smite and Divine Sacrafice will stack with each other? In other words Divine sacrafice III will give you 9d6 holy damage and +1 to your critical multiplier and Exhalted smite 4 will give +2 to each of threat range and multiplier. So a khopesh wielding Paladin would have a threat range of 17-20 increase to 15-20 if you have improved critical and +6 crit multiplier(3 from the weapon + 1 from divine sacrafice 3 and +2 from exhalted smite 4). These seem to add up to some really sick numbers. If they hit of course. So if they do stack do you guys think it will be worth it to have to go to Pali 18 to get Exalted smite 4?

Mhykke
04-14-2008, 11:34 AM
Honestly,
W/ the reduction in extra smites, I'd be hesitant to base a character staying pure based on these enhancements alone.

Don't get me wrong, it's some nice flavor to paladins, but would've been the icing to a way of.... enhancement line, or new spells/feats.

On its own, it's still not consistent enough for me. It's a nice crit here and there, but it is limited to 8 times, w/ 2 second intervals, and regenning not starting until 90 seconds after 1st one used.

bigal4458
04-14-2008, 11:57 AM
It will certainly be nast w/ a SoS if they all stack..... I couldn't imagine some of those numbers.....however, it still only goes so far to make the Paladin's overall more desired in groups. I think the rez ability may help, and they are all improvements, but I think there still needs to be a little more looked at.

gpk
04-14-2008, 12:15 PM
Once again it's important not to be sucked in by possible large crits; what matters is the contribution made to a quest or a higher level boss fight.

A few big numbers here and there are meaningless and only serve to sucker in a few players suffering from crit-itis into thinking "wow this is awesome!".

The regening smites and tier 1-2 sacrifices still don't really amount to much and cost is way still too high in many aspects.

llevenbaxx
04-14-2008, 01:58 PM
Still glad I have 4(an only 4 levels of ftr). It will be nice for general adventuring if DS and the Exalted smite can be used in conjunction but its not going to make me one ioda(sp?) more welcome in shroud groups or more desired for end boss fights...

Like gpk keeps saying we need that one spell/feat that is persistent(not another 1 min/cast) that gives palys that sustained boost to get us out of the DPS basement.

Geonis
04-15-2008, 06:20 AM
No.

Darth_Sizzle
04-15-2008, 06:28 PM
They will not stack, they will be (like smite currently is) push button attacks. I will be using the hell out of both of these.

Currently with the SoS I can crit on a smite for 315+

I can't wait to see what I can do with these :)

and now with the re-gen every 90 seconds I can use these throughout the entire quest.

QuantumFX
04-15-2008, 06:32 PM
Good question. From reading Eladrin's posts I think it will work together. Now, the next question is will paladins suffer from clickie lag?

gpk
04-15-2008, 07:08 PM
They will not stack, they will be (like smite currently is) push button attacks. I will be using the hell out of both of these.

Currently with the SoS I can crit on a smite for 315+

I can't wait to see what I can do with these :)

and now with the re-gen every 90 seconds I can use these throughout the entire quest.

So 1-3 out of your 4-8 base smites crit's for over 300, 2-3 of you regenerated exalted smite will crit for oh let's say 500 even.
How do you feel this tiny amount of individual swings contributes in a quest or is at all meaningfull?

Darth_Sizzle
04-16-2008, 01:02 AM
So 1-3 out of your 4-8 base smites crit's for over 300, 2-3 of you regenerated exalted smite will crit for oh let's say 500 even.
How do you feel this tiny amount of individual swings contributes in a quest or is at all meaningfull?

Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

GeneralDiomedes
04-16-2008, 01:14 AM
Here's a nice feat from this book I just picked up

Divine Justice

As a swift action, spend on of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to deal an extra 2d6 points of damage with all your successful melee attacks against evil outsiders until the end of the round. In addition, evil outsiders struck by one of your attacks while you are using this feat must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute.

I think this could be extended to a short duration spell like ability, say 6 seconds per paladin level or something.

gpk
04-16-2008, 10:39 AM
Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

It would make no noticeable difference at all, the smites even with regen ever 90 secs even if they ALL crit are still just to few to matter at all in a DDO quest or raid.

It's a trap, getting wowed by a possible high number leads you to not look at how often it can actually happen and against how many and which mobs.

This is not extra dps, it hardly even qualifies as burst DPS, it's more like sneeze DPS.

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 12:17 PM
Actually, I currently have 10. After the update I will have 5 that regen. Going from a x3 to a x5 will put me at oh lets say more like 545. Are you actually asking me how more dps contributes to a quest? Would it be better if I had no extra DPS?

Realistically, if you're willing to spend 6 ap on ~.6 dps, it probably would be better if you had no extra dps.

Darth_Sizzle
04-16-2008, 12:25 PM
It would make no noticeable difference at all, the smites even with regen ever 90 secs even if they ALL crit are still just to few to matter at all in a DDO quest or raid.

It's a trap, getting wowed by a possible high number leads you to not look at how often it can actually happen and against how many and which mobs.

This is not extra dps, it hardly even qualifies as burst DPS, it's more like sneeze DPS.

That possibility of a high number, yea it would be a 35% chance (13-20 crit range), thats a pretty good chance.

Let's examine:

Say a quest takes 45 mins, out of that let's say I'm swinging for 30 mins. The smite cool down is (I believe) 6 seconds to start, so to burn all 5 smites would take me approx 30 seconds, then I have to wait 7.5 mins for them to all regen. If I do this throughout the quest I should get 18 smites. With a 35% chance to get a crit; that means I should get, on average, 6 crits that each do 400 pts more damage than a normal crit - that equals 2,400 extra damage. Plus the 12 smites that dont crit still add 70+ points of damage each - that equals another 840 extra damage. So, we're looking at a total of 3,240 extra damage (with the possibility of alot more).

Strykersz
04-16-2008, 12:32 PM
That possibility of a high number, yea it would be a 35% chance (13-20 crit range), thats a pretty good chance.

Let's examine:

Say a quest takes 45 mins, out of that let's say I'm swinging for 30 mins. The smite cool down is (I believe) 6 seconds to start, so to burn all 5 smites would take me approx 30 seconds, then I have to wait 7.5 mins for them to all regen. If I do this throughout the quest I should get 18 smites. With a 35% chance to get a crit; that means I should get, on average, 6 crits that each do 400 pts more damage than a normal crit - that equals 2,400 extra damage. Plus the 12 smites that dont crit still add 70+ points of damage each - that equals another 840 extra damage. So, we're looking at a total of 3,240 extra damage (with the possibility of alot more).

So over the course of 30 minutes of fighting, your smites equal about 30 seconds of barb/ranger damage?

edit: It sounds like you plan on taking Exalted Smiting 3. I feel compelled to inform you that it has a pre-req of Extra Smite 4 which means you're spending 16 ap total for that 30 seconds of barb dps, although with the extra 4 smites it might go up to 35 seconds(assumed 18, you'll end up with 22 so a little less than a ~25% increase).

edit2: I hate the belabor this point, but you really need to do the math to realize how badly paladins are getting screwed in comparison to ranger/caster/rogue/barb love

Cyr
04-16-2008, 04:55 PM
/sigh...again

If you do not think your pali will gain any benefit from the new lines of enhancements then do not take them. If all you get is extra aura and some AP back and regenerating smites then you have still gained.

Extra DPS is extra dps...burst dps is important in DDO last time I checked the red/purple names were the time when you had to pull out the big guns so to speak. So faster timers and more damage sounds like good things to me. Alot of people have been ignoring the timer and regen issue when talking about the modifications to pali's and those are key. The timer let's you do more dps in short intervals against boss mobs and the regen lets you use more smites per shrine. Note: This regeneration of smites will be the ONLY time that a class ability regenerates without a shrine that I am aware of. So let's say an average quest has a shrine every 5 mintues this grants 3 extra uses. Now in the tougher quests...the ones where you have a really shaky pug group and they wanted to do it on elite the shrines take let's say 15 minutes to get to...that is an extra 10 uses. That is some serious trash mob cleanup potential. Now let's take the big case currently...you are fighting Harry in part 5 on elite...everyone else in the party has run out rages and spell points...clerics are on scrolls/your casters are rightly using force missile wands...your rangers are complaining that they could only hold 2500 silver arrows in their inventory and that only allowed them to pick up one piece of loot :)...you have as many smites sitting there as you have patience and the cleric has scrolls for you. Okay I admit an extreme case, but it happens.

Now let's say it is a nice normal part 5. You used two smites to rip apart the gnoll. They are back by the time Harry comes down. You have full smitting potential...the fight is going to last a few minutes even with a good group so you'll get a few more smites in then your 'total per shrine'. You will do more damage...period. If you are smart enough to truly understand the usefulness of the divine sacrifice line you will be spamming those every chance you get because the clerics are overhealing you with their heal spells anyways or the mass heals they are throwing on the barbs and one SP a shot is hardly going to drain your mana pool dangerously.

gpk
04-16-2008, 05:25 PM
/sigh...again

If you do not think your pali will gain any benefit from the new lines of enhancements then do not take them. If all you get is extra aura and some AP back and regenerating smites then you have still gained.

Extra DPS is extra dps...burst dps is important in DDO last time I checked the red/purple names were the time when you had to pull out the big guns so to speak. So faster timers and more damage sounds like good things to me. Alot of people have been ignoring the timer and regen issue when talking about the modifications to pali's and those are key [...]

Now let's say it is a nice normal part 5. You used two smites to rip apart the gnoll. They are back by the time Harry comes down. You have full smitting potential...the fight is going to last a few minutes even with a good group so you'll get a few more smites in then your 'total per shrine'. You will do more damage...period. If you are smart enough to truly understand the usefulness of the divine sacrifice line you will be spamming those every chance you get because the clerics are overhealing you with their heal spells anyways or the mass heals they are throwing on the barbs and one SP a shot is hardly going to drain your mana pool dangerously.

Would you consider 0.1% "extra" DPS to really be "extra" ? We ARE factoring in the 90 second regens as well.
What you don't appear to be factoring in is the number of mobs you face with their crazy HPs and the number of times you and your teammates swing.

Smite Evils vs any mini-boss, boss or raid boss is laughable, the contribution is so tiny that for all intent and purpose it's non-existant.
And really the pit fiend healbot gnolls? Who cares about those, they're trash mobs that usually a caster kills before your 1st swing even finishes. LOL 2 smites on gnol? That's just a terrible argument.

It's important to be smart enough yes, it's important to realize the meager amount of swings with possible high crits is meaningless in a high level DDO context.

As for Divine Sacrifice not only is it a poor spell choice to begin with, but it hasn't been properly adjusted to DDO levels and suffers from being a one shot deal wich further reduces it's effectiveness, potentially by very large chunks. The irony is that you see it as a boss fight tool, the devs intend it as a a tool for "easier fights".

Do you agree with the devs that it's for "easier fights"? How does the spell compare to Ram's Might or Righteous Fury in your eyes?

True "easy fight" DPS boost comes from Righteous Fury, true "Burst DPS" comes from Divine Might (a la NwN or 30 second flat duration), bastardized Divine Sacrifices and curiously underpowered and overfused Exalted Smites don't come even close.

If the intent is to focus on Smite Evil for burst DPS then it must be a multi-second duration for it to actually contribute to short term burst damage versus a DDO mob, mini-boss, boss or raid boss.

Maybe we're all looking at it all wrong, maybe for smite evils to actually be meaningful there should be a flat base damage and much more extra damage when used against a higher CR mob, or extra boost when used againt an orange, red or purple named boss. Maybe it should "tag" the boss mob and do more damage and last longer against said mob, enough for the numbers to actually add up and matter.
It would be acceptable to (slighly?) surpass the overall bonus provided by Ram's Might against bosses, you're only doing burst damage to a bossafterall.

P.S. since the convo is being spread a bit thin across some other threads, for interest's sake try reading this little thread buried in the Pally class section http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142980

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 05:43 PM
Smite Evils vs any mini-boss, boss or raid boss is laughable, the contribution is so tiny that for all intent and purpose it's non-existant.


Sorry dude this is just incorrect. I keep arguing with you but it is obvious you just don't have a Paladin.

But at least you didn't say intensive purposes. :D

gpk
04-16-2008, 05:49 PM
Sorry dude this is just incorrect. I keep arguing with you but it is obvious you just don't have a Paladin.

But at least you didn't say intensive purposes. :D

LMAO I don't have a paladin? I was gonna ask you the same thing.

Please then, help us understand since the burden of proof is now on you.

Type out how many swings you get with various weapons, add up the damage, damage from crits, and then compare to a boss mob from any vale quest.
Then please list out all the boss mobs, how many and which you will encounter in between shrines and multiples 90 second regens .

I anxiously await your detailed post.

gpk
04-17-2008, 12:19 AM
Hmm someone suggested I compare Exalted Smite 3 to a little tier1 Fighters (rog) haste boost 1 (+15% attack speed)

After some quick math I'm getting some pretty alarming numbers over 160 seconds (5 boosts +in between cooldowns)
I'll do more awake math tomorrow time permitting.

Does anyone else care to do some math? I'm looking at you Accelerando.

Strykersz
04-17-2008, 03:37 AM
Extra DPS is extra dps...burst dps is important in DDO last time I checked the red/purple names were the time when you had to pull out the big guns so to speak. So faster timers and more damage sounds like good things to me. Alot of people have been ignoring the timer and regen issue when talking about the modifications to pali's and those are key. The timer let's you do more dps in short intervals against boss mobs and the regen lets you use more smites per shrine.

Actually, for any fight lasting less than ~7.5 minutes, your smite dps has gone down. That means any boss fight not part 5 and we can hope it will include the mod 7 raid.

edit: And yes, smites are/will continue to be rather meaningless anyways in fights in the style of part 5. I did a quick calc of the ES3+Smite damage and it ends up being something on the order of 2 dps over the 20 minutes.

Angelus_dead
04-17-2008, 08:51 AM
Hmm someone suggested I compare Exalted Smite 3 to a little tier1 Fighters (rog) haste boost 1 (+15% attack speed)
Well, that's a well-known advantage of the non-pure paladin. There are plenty of good reasons for a paladin to take a few levels of rogue or fighter, but in addition you get Haste Boost I for nearly +15% DPS for 20 seconds.

In the current DDO rules it provides so much more burst DPS than Smite Evil that it's not even funny. In the same timeframe Smite Evil would add 68 damage, Haste Boost I adds 347.

(And of course, an effect like Haste Boost also helps with vorpal, wounding, banishing, while current Smites do nothing)

paintedman
04-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Rough breakdown given the following:
Level 16 Paladin
24st
22ch
SOS(Sword of Shadows)
Divine Favor
Imp Crit Slashing

Roughly 231 Smite E with a crit vs 375 E Smite with a crit. Factor three rounds, 15 attacks, you can get of two castings of DS, one as you run in, and another when the E Smite recharges. I don't see how this is a bad thing, even if you don't crit you still get the 7d6 damage added to the attack almost guaranteed cause of the To Hit Bonus.

I guess I'm just disputing the .01% damage increase, some insight please?

-paintedman

Cyr
04-17-2008, 04:51 PM
Would you consider 0.1% "extra" DPS to really be "extra" ? We ARE factoring in the 90 second regens as well.
What you don't appear to be factoring in is the number of mobs you face with their crazy HPs and the number of times you and your teammates swing.

Smite Evils vs any mini-boss, boss or raid boss is laughable, the contribution is so tiny that for all intent and purpose it's non-existant.
And really the pit fiend healbot gnolls? Who cares about those, they're trash mobs that usually a caster kills before your 1st swing even finishes. LOL 2 smites on gnol? That's just a terrible argument.

It's important to be smart enough yes, it's important to realize the meager amount of swings with possible high crits is meaningless in a high level DDO context.

As for Divine Sacrifice not only is it a poor spell choice to begin with, but it hasn't been properly adjusted to DDO levels and suffers from being a one shot deal wich further reduces it's effectiveness, potentially by very large chunks. The irony is that you see it as a boss fight tool, the devs intend it as a a tool for "easier fights".

Do you agree with the devs that it's for "easier fights"? How does the spell compare to Ram's Might or Righteous Fury in your eyes?

True "easy fight" DPS boost comes from Righteous Fury, true "Burst DPS" comes from Divine Might (a la NwN or 30 second flat duration), bastardized Divine Sacrifices and curiously underpowered and overfused Exalted Smites don't come even close.

If the intent is to focus on Smite Evil for burst DPS then it must be a multi-second duration for it to actually contribute to short term burst damage versus a DDO mob, mini-boss, boss or raid boss.

Maybe we're all looking at it all wrong, maybe for smite evils to actually be meaningful there should be a flat base damage and much more extra damage when used against a higher CR mob, or extra boost when used againt an orange, red or purple named boss. Maybe it should "tag" the boss mob and do more damage and last longer against said mob, enough for the numbers to actually add up and matter.
It would be acceptable to (slighly?) surpass the overall bonus provided by Ram's Might against bosses, you're only doing burst damage to a bossafterall.

P.S. since the convo is being spread a bit thin across some other threads, for interest's sake try reading this little thread buried in the Pally class section http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142980

The gnoll I mentioned was the part 5 red name gnoll as a quick beat down not a trash mob healbot. The extra dps quoted is just plain wrong with divine sacrifice figured in. Divine sacrifice could be used as a trash mob helper yes...and for goodness sake do not even try to argue that 7d6 extra damage on a hit is nothing. I know exactly how good paladin's do against Harry atm...very good. I know that they need less healing then the barb. I know that 10 hp every 3 seconds being lost is the smallest drop in the bucket compared to the overhealing they are getting. That is the big helper there...7d6 extra damage every 3 seconds (an average of 24.5 per 3 seconds more than you would have done before). Extend that over the 5-15 minutes fight and you have 2450 to 7350 more damage. This is without any smites, just that useless divine sacrifice.

The smites are also improved...
Do I think it is outstanding or comparable to ram's strength...nope, but nor do I think it needs to be. It is pure nonesense that paladin's are anywhere near the low that rangers were before their "love". In these rants about the "love" not being enough I keep on hearing complaints that compare the different love that classes got. Let's be clear about this the classes that got the most "love" became dominant classes...sorcerors (compared to wizards) and barbarians (compared to fighters and paladins). This was not a good thing...people rerolled (alot of people) to make barb's and sorc's instead of their old toons. These love taps given to classes need to be in moderation, particularly when a class does not need that much love to begin with (the case with the two big offenders atm).

Turbine has clearly learned from this...good for them! We should applaud this. Oh yeah, and trying to justify a PURE CLASS anything based upon new enhancements is a bad idea to begin with (another silly argument posted in these forums).

One last thing...next time your in the shroud tanking harry check your healing log and see the numerous times that you are overhealed for anything from 10's to 100's of hp. MOST clerics overheal in part 4/5 and in general also...only really good clerics barely overheal yet never let you die. This is the reason why divine sacrifice is worthwhile. If it did alot more damage per hit and took the same hp from you it would be overpowerd period. Seriously, do the math...do you really think your pali is so gimped that he has to do more than 2450 damage more then he previously did against harry in part 5 to make him good enough to play? And do not be foolish enough to quote barbarian damage...seriously as a paladin do you think you gain nothing that a barbarian does not have?? They should still be doing more damage...it's all they do!

Mhykke
04-17-2008, 04:55 PM
And do not be foolish enough to quote barbarian damage...seriously as a paladin do you think you gain nothing that a barbarian does not have?? They should still be doing more damage...it's all they do!

If i had a nickle for every time someone tried to portray the paladin criticisms as a desire for paladins to equal or supercede barbarian DPS.....

gpk
04-17-2008, 05:19 PM
The gnoll I mentioned was the part 5 red name gnoll as a quick beat down not a trash mob healbot. The extra dps quoted is just plain wrong with divine sacrifice figured in. Divine sacrifice could be used as a trash mob helper yes...and for goodness sake do not even try to argue that 7d6 extra damage on a hit is nothing. I know exactly how good paladin's do against Harry atm...very good. I know that they need less healing then the barb. I know that 10 hp every 3 seconds being lost is the smallest drop in the bucket compared to the overhealing they are getting. That is the big helper there...7d6 extra damage every 3 seconds (an average of 24.5 per 3 seconds more than you would have done before). Extend that over the 5-15 minutes fight and you have 2450 to 7350 more damage. This is without any smites, just that useless divine sacrifice.

Wow where to start.

First of all the devs intended DS to be a spell for "easy fights" do you agree with that?
Then look at the Ratio, 7d6 +1 crit multi vs 10 HP, that's ALL wrong when adjusted for pnp mobs + mob numbers.
7d6 CAN be good (not compared to Righteous Fury) but the self cost is out of proportion for this game.



I know exactly how good paladin's do against Harry atm...very good. I know that they need less healing then the barb

LOL what? Notice how many LFMs don't want paladins? Paladins need less healing? :confused:



The smites are also improved...
Do I think it is outstanding or comparable to ram's strength...nope, but nor do I think it needs to be. It is pure nonesense that paladin's are anywhere near the low that rangers were before their "love". In these rants about the "love" not being enough I keep on hearing complaints that compare the different love that classes got. Let's be clear about this the classes that got the most "love" became dominant classes...sorcerors (compared to wizards) and barbarians (compared to fighters and paladins). This was not a good thing...people rerolled (alot of people) to make barb's and sorc's instead of their old toons. These love taps given to classes need to be in moderation, particularly when a class does not need that much love to begin with (the case with the two big offenders atm).
Turbine has clearly learned from this...good for them! We should applaud this. Oh yeah, and trying to justify a PURE CLASS anything based upon new enhancements is a bad idea to begin with (another silly argument posted in these forums).


A pally IS behind where a pre-mod 6 ranger was; to say otherwise is simply untrue.
The very nature of a game over the last 3 mods especially favors rangers, no pun intended.

So just because barbarians and casters were overpowered paladins should get kicked in the gut some more? Ranger weren't and neither should pallies. I've not asked for anything even close to being that overpowered, however I took the time to analyze the situation and the "love" and saw it was insultingly underwhelming. The devs said other classes can expect good boosts, NOONE expected anything like Crit Rage 2 nor was it mentioned.



One last thing...next time your in the shroud tanking harry check your healing log and see the numerous times that you are overhealed for anything from 10's to 100's of hp. MOST clerics overheal in part 4/5 and in general also...only really good clerics barely overheal yet never let you die. This is the reason why divine sacrifice is worthwhile. If it did alot more damage per hit and took the same hp from you it would be overpowerd period. Seriously, do the math...do you really think your pali is so gimped that he has to do more than 2450 damage more then he previously did against harry in part 5 to make him good enough to play? And do not be foolish enough to quote barbarian damage...seriously as a paladin do you think you gain nothing that a barbarian does not have?? They should still be doing more damage...it's all they do!


Again this spell is intended for "easy fights" according to the devs, not boss fights. If you disagree with that take it up with them.
Tell me, do you think vicious weapons are good?

I already did the math, I compared the pally to a ranger, compared what the ranger got and compared DS to the proper Righteous Fury spell. Not ONCE did the barbarian factor into my equations, not once. But thanks for the straw-man...

For fun I also compared Exalted Smites to Fighter's (rog) Haste Boost 1 (that 1 action point) and 4, here is your next assignment, you do the same and post your results here.

Honestly this is precisely the problem with forum paladins, they see 7d6 and they go all gaga, they see a possible 5x multiplier and they almost faint with excitement. What they don't do is look at how many swings, over how long a time period and at what cost, they don't compare to the proper love some other classes got nor do they compare these "additions" to the proper Spell Compendium spells and their intended usage.

This is the do-or-die mod for paladins, we've endured a year of nerfs while other classes got boosts, a year of people saying "wait till mod7". If you can't make the effort to properly look at things in the proper context and the big picture then you deserve what you get.

gpk
04-17-2008, 05:20 PM
Here's another post for ya


Yes but you are forgetting a few things, among them the cost to self (let's assume a 6 sec cooldown):

- For starters you should be comparing it to a +x greater bane weapon, a tier3 crafted weapon (mineral2 for instance, or better yet holy pure good burst). A Holy Sword weapon is an inferior weapon for comparisons.

-Compare it to Ram's Might, a made-up spell.

-Compare it to the pally only Righteous Fury (+4 stacking STR bonus) from the same Spell Compendium, compare their ease of use, intended purpose and "love" factor.

-Factor in the issues that plague a special attack swing, mob twitched outta the way, mob died, special swing didn't chain properly etc.
You still end up with -10 HP - SP AND cooldown timer is triggered leading to a loss of a significant portion of your "DPS" .
This is not a turn based game and special consideration to the real time nature of the game must be given.

-Look at the damage ratio from PnP to DDO, it's virtually the same for the many more mobs with much more HP you will face.
This makes no sense, other spells we're similarly adjusted to DDO standards, why not this one?
The proper ratio would be somewhere along the lines of 6:1 and special consideration should be given to the special attack issues and self damage should be adjusted again.

-Look at the intended use of the spell in PnP, it's not a spell designed for "easy fights", it's a desperate boss damaging spell.

-Tie all damage from DS into the D6s, tying damage to crits is a mistake as it punishes different weapons and builds, and it reduces it's effectiveness vs different mobs (crit immune or fort item wearing). The +X crit multipliers are OK if thrown in as a bonus after all factors were taken into account OR if DS bypassed fortification and crit immunity.

Really the best and easiest thing to do is to just replace this "spell" with Righetous Fury.

Barring that it should be tweaked considerably: damage dealt/taken ration adjust to over 6:1 and fix ALL special attack swings. If no attack roll was generated then the cooldown timer doesn't kick in and in the case of DS, no loss of HP or SP.

Ideally there should also be a way of automating this, like a popup menu that you can drag a swing to the toolbar, click the icon and it will chain DS on the 4th swing automatically, this can be a toggle or one click deal.

gpk
04-17-2008, 05:27 PM
If i had a nickle for every time someone tried to portray the paladin criticisms as a desire for paladins to equal or supercede barbarian DPS.....

LOL no kidding, it's a very weak straw-man argument that always seems to popup after a post or two.

bigal4458
04-17-2008, 06:42 PM
Well, that's a well-known advantage of the non-pure paladin. There are plenty of good reasons for a paladin to take a few levels of rogue or fighter, but in addition you get Haste Boost I for nearly +15% DPS for 20 seconds.

In the current DDO rules it provides so much more burst DPS than Smite Evil that it's not even funny. In the same timeframe Smite Evil would add 68 damage, Haste Boost I adds 347.

(And of course, an effect like Haste Boost also helps with vorpal, wounding, banishing, while current Smites do nothing)

This fact here blew my mind.......that is so pathetic that the dps for a basic lvl 1 enchancment is so much greater than our Paladin "love" enhancement line....

Not to mention all the other things wrong w/ this kind of "love".

CaptGrim
04-17-2008, 06:49 PM
I've seen Alot of posts about how crappy the new Pali enhancements are even in regards to burst DPS.

And the main reason I post these was to illustrate the improvement to the PALIDIN class, not to compare them to RANGERS.

I figured these numbers based on a build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=143353)I rolled, to max the new smite enhancement lines for DPS.

The build is WF based pali with high str and deathnip and imp crit pierce.

Now these figures may be off a bit on the speed, But I think they are pretty close.(at least for a non-hasted Pali)

The timing may be off but if anything it favors the old system with its 6 second smite recharge.

Also keep in mind with the old system you COULD still have 2 smites waiting to be used.

First the scenario, This is not just raw math, but How you would use the smites in a quest.

Save all smites for an end boss and fire them off as fast as possible, I'm guessing the new system would take 30 to 45 seconds to use up all your smites

First Exalted smite 3

I used this sequence for the end fight:

Smite
hit
hit
hit
Smite
hit
hit
hit
Smite
ect...



All told 8 smites, 21 swings, 1 miss

Smites:

8 smites
2 crits........1086
6 non-crits..495

Attacks:

21 swings
1 miss....0
4 crits....664
16 hits...536

roughly 45 second end boss smite spam 2781 total avg damage

Now the old smite system

I used this sequence for the end fight:

Smite
hit
hit
hit
hit
hit
Smite
hit
hit
hit
hit
hit
Smite
ect..
ect...

6 smites

1 crit ...... 362
.2 crit ......72.4

4 non crit..82.5
.8 non crit.66

25 hits

5 crits.....664
1 miss......0
19 hits.....636.5

pre mod 7 smite spam 2130.9 total avg damage

post mod 7 2781
pre- mod 7 2130.9

Total diff. 650 damage increase to a Smite burst

Thats not too bad of an increase for at most 45 seconds, but its not uber either, I think its good to increase pali's burst DPS while not giving a consistent DPS upgrade, It's got more flavor that way.

The thing about it is with DR the new system improves, but with lower base line stats and non top of the line gear I think the numbers get closer together.

Personally I think this is an not so bad of a solution to pali smites, I would like to have seen the extra smite enhancements to remain at 2 per teir, or like was suggested elsewhere have a faster smite recharge line as well.

Also they have upgraded LoH options, but what Really needs to be done IMO is to make remove Disease, and Turn undead useful.

I've seen really good suggestions in other threads that I won't get into here.

It when compared to other classes that they enhancements look weak, but I think its best to look at the improvement.

Also the AP cost is high now as well

pre mod 7 10ap =extra smite 4
postmod 7 20ap= extra smite 4 and exalted smite 4 (to max out the smite line)


Before I'm asked here are the numbers I used for damage calculations

36 str 30 base 2 rage 4 bladesworn
3 Divine Favor
9 Warforged PA
8.5 deathnip
8 seeker(where applicable)
49 Pali smite Damage bonus(10+3*(14-1))
exalted smite 3

SteeleTrueheart
04-17-2008, 08:03 PM
Capt.

In the current system you can have 12 smites and you can use them up within 72 seconds (give or take)

Try comparing that to your new improved system with 8 smites within the 72 seconds.

CaptGrim
04-17-2008, 08:37 PM
Capt.

In the current system you can have 12 smites and you can use them up within 72 seconds (give or take)

Try comparing that to your new improved system with 8 smites within the 72 seconds.

lol amazingly enough

543 Exalted smite 3 x8 =4344
362 mod6 smite x12=4344

This is for all crits just thought it pretty bizzare

Crazy....

8 ExS3

2 crits .........1086
6 non crits.....495

12 mod 6 smite

2 crit....724
.4 crit....144.8

9 non crit...742.5
.6 non crit..49.5

totals

mod 7 1581
mod 6 1660.8

so 1660.8 in 72 seconds
or 1581 in 21 seconds

Like I said in my other post I think this is good for burst DPS, but I think they should leave the extra smite enhancments alone.

SteeleTrueheart
04-17-2008, 08:50 PM
Even if you left the extra smite enhancements to 2 per level I would hardly call this paladin love. (I have to pay 10 AP's to roughly equal what I can do now for free?)

Someone pointed out fighter attack speed boost 1 in one of these threads... whoever that was thanks. I will have to play with that on my new multiclass alt.

SteeleTrueheart
04-17-2008, 09:21 PM
Let's be clear about this the classes that got the most "love" became dominant classes...sorcerors (compared to wizards) and barbarians (compared to fighters and paladins). This was not a good thing...people rerolled (alot of people) to make barb's and sorc's instead of their old toons. These love taps given to classes need to be in moderation, particularly when a class does not need that much love to begin with (the case with the two big offenders atm).

Turbine has clearly learned from this...good for them! We should applaud this. Oh yeah, and trying to justify a PURE CLASS anything based upon new enhancements is a bad idea to begin with (another silly argument posted in these forums).

I agree that because 1 class is overpowered does not mean that otherclasses should also be ramped up.


One last thing...next time your in the shroud tanking harry check your healing log and see the numerous times that you are overhealed for anything from 10's to 100's of hp. MOST clerics overheal in part 4/5 and in general also...only really good clerics barely overheal yet never let you die. This is the reason why divine sacrifice is worthwhile. If it did alot more damage per hit and took the same hp from you it would be overpowerd period. Seriously, do the math...do you really think your pali is so gimped that he has to do more than 2450 damage more then he previously did against harry in part 5 to make him good enough to play? And do not be foolish enough to quote barbarian damage...seriously as a paladin do you think you gain nothing that a barbarian does not have?? They should still be doing more damage...it's all they do!

DS and Exalted will be great for Harry and also for Velah (I have said this many times) and for any mob that does not move and where you will be constantly healed. Of course Harries fortification will negate exalted a lot, but I really think Pallies will be the new favourites to be the Hero vs Velah.

That said, those are 2 fights in the WHOLE game. These enhancements are much less useful for the rest of the game.

gpk
04-18-2008, 01:40 AM
I'll double check some numbers later but right now it seems as if Fighters Haste Boost 1 (+15% attack speed) and Exalted Smites +Extra Smites 4 over a 140 second period give pretty much the same bonus.
Meaning if you spam all your smites sure you will boost your DPS for 16 seconds, but for a boss fight lasting more than 16 seconds a little 1 action point enhancement eventually ~matches it at 140 seconds. If the BAB15+ swing rate is ever fixed it will surpass it.
Haste boost 4 more than doubles the smite DPS boost at 140 seconds.
So if you use up all your smites and don't shrine within 12 minutes of using them you regen another batch to spam. Otherwise save the AP and grab fighter or rog haste boost 1 for 1 little AP if you have 1 ftr or rog level, and you can tell people you have a good DPS burst boost.

That's pretty damn sad...