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Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:15 AM
Just wanted to say that I think the changes to this enhancement went a long way toward balancing the enhancement while simultaneously keeping it viable for use.

Just in case ya'll missed it, the cooldown was lengthened to 15 seconds and the requirement was put on the attack that the rogue must be in sneak mode to use it.

binnsr
04-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I think that all it did was make it so that it'll be used primarily when soloing .. although once you do use it, you're not sneaking anymore and all his buddies are looking at you all funny .. and then things get messy.

Coldin
04-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I don't know Asp. A longer cooldown makes sense. But requiring the rogue to be stealthed just makes it kinda impractical. I really just think rogues will just be quickly going stealthed mid-combat, then attacking to make the death attack.

So much for my idea of using an Improved Feint / Death Attack combo.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:21 AM
I don't know Asp. A longer cooldown makes sense. But requiring the rogue to be stealthed just makes it kinda impractical. I really just think rogues will just be quickly going stealthed mid-combat, then attacking to make the death attack.

So much for my idea of using an Improved Feint / Death Attack combo.

You can still do that combo. It'll just take 1 more button press. You do keep sneak on your main hotbar on your rogue, don't you?

dragnmoon
04-14-2008, 10:24 AM
You can still do that combo. It'll just take 1 more button press. You do keep sneak on your main hotbar on your rogue, don't you?

I do.... rarely use it...In fact i have not put points into MS and Hide in a few levels...

The problem I can see..if it requires you to be not only in stealth mode...and Not noticed..*Successful stealth*.. Then it becomes useless for me... Not many groups will wait for me to stealth on something to try to kill it in one shot..

If it is that case..it will be useful for Solo Rogues..and Permadeath Guilds..

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:26 AM
I do.... rarely use it...In fact i have not put points into MS and Hide in a few levels...

The problem I can see..if it requires you to be not only in stealth mode...and Not noticed..*Successful stealth*.. Then it becomes useless for me... Not many groups will wait for me to stealth on something to try to kill it in one shot..

If it is that case..it will be useful for Solo Rogues..and Permadeath Guilds..

Well I will be able to fit this into my normal combat routine pretty easily. I disagree that it will only be useful for soloing.

Coldin
04-14-2008, 10:27 AM
You can still do that combo. It'll just take 1 more button press. You do keep sneak on your main hotbar on your rogue, don't you?

Actually, yes. But, the thing is here, you'll use IF, go into stealth mode, and then have to try to make contact with the monster with your death attack when they might be moving all crazily around, and you're moving 50% slower than normal. Fail to connect with that 1 attack, and then you're stuck waiting another 15 seconds.

My problem here, is that this takes what was looking to be a really useful ability and a great boost for the damage dealing rogue, and makes it really difficult to use effectively.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:28 AM
Actually, yes. But, the thing is here, you'll use IF, go into stealth mode, and then have to try to make contact with the monster with your death attack when they might be moving all crazily around, and you're moving 50% slower than normal. Fail to connect with that 1 attack, and then you're stuck waiting another 15 seconds.

Twitch gaming ftw...

That's part of the balancing mechanic, don't you see that Cold?

Coldin
04-14-2008, 10:30 AM
Twitch gaming ftw...

That's part of the balancing mechanic, don't you see that Cold?

It's an over-balance in my opinion. Swings the pendulum too far back the other way.

Plus, twitch gaming can only go so far, when things like lag exist.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:33 AM
It's an over-balance in my opinion. Swings the pendulum too far back the other way.

Plus, twitch gaming can only go so far, when things like lag exist.

The enhancement says pretty much nothing about "not being noticed" it just states you need to be sneaking and gaining sneak attacks. I find that I can sneak in combat pretty easily.

Yaga_Nub
04-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Would this situation work -

Crit with a radiance 2 weapon to blind the mob, drop into stealth and then use WotA to deliver instant-kill shot.

Or would the mob keep aggro on you even though it's blinded and you're in stealth mode.

dragnmoon
04-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Well I will be able to fit this into my normal combat routine pretty easily. I disagree that it will only be useful for soloing.

I should have put a IMO..into that... Since for me it will be useless..since ..

1. I don't have the patience to Sneak up to something so I am not seen to get an attack with..
2. Most people I group with would not have the patience..
3. I rarely if ever use my sneak mode *It is used in some quests*

dragnmoon
04-14-2008, 10:34 AM
The enhancement says pretty much nothing about "not being noticed" it just states you need to be sneaking and gaining sneak attacks. I find that I can sneak in combat pretty easily.

lets hope you are right

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:34 AM
Would this situation work -

Crit with a radiance 2 weapon to blind the mob, drop into stealth and then use WotA to deliver instant-kill shot.

Or would the mob keep aggro on you even though it's blinded and you're in stealth mode.

From what I read that would qualify for the death attack. Sneak Mode + Sneak Attack = Death Attack-able

Angelus_dead
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Actually, yes. But, the thing is here, you'll use IF, go into stealth mode, and then have to try to make contact with the monster with your death attack when they might be moving all crazily around, and you're moving 50% slower than normal. Fail to connect with that 1 attack, and then you're stuck waiting another 15 seconds.
Clearly, that's the point. You shouldn't be able to use it when a monster is running around like crazy. It is solely meant as a powerful first strike against unaggroed monsters.

The key use case is for the rogue to sneak up around behind a group of monsters, select their cleric or mage, and kill him with a single hit as a way to start the combat.

Notice that this change was taken from Eudimio's suggestion in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1646157&postcount=210), two weeks ago.

Angelus_dead
04-14-2008, 10:37 AM
Crit with a radiance 2 weapon to blind the mob, drop into stealth and then use WotA to deliver instant-kill shot.
Keep in mind that a blinded monster runs away from you semi-randomly, and doesn't stay in place as if making full attacks. Even without the slowdown of stealth mode it can be hard to chase a monster who's doing that.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:37 AM
The key use case is for the rogue to sneak up around behind a group of monsters, select their cleric or mage, and kill him with a single hit as a way to start the combat.

And, after all, how hard would it be to sneak up behind this cleric/caster when they get aggrod on that zerging barbarian?? :D

Coldin
04-14-2008, 10:45 AM
And, after all, how hard would it be to sneak up behind this cleric/caster when they get aggrod on that zerging barbarian?? :D

Extremely difficult, because he's already dead, and you're still 30 feet away from him.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:46 AM
Extremely difficult, because he's already dead, and you're still 30 feet away from him.

Drink a haste pot.

JTsays
04-14-2008, 10:54 AM
Well I'm hopeful now that WotAII will be worthwhile.

I feared the nerf-bat would've killed it , but it looks like these changes may make it all assassin-like and junk.

Coldin
04-14-2008, 10:55 AM
Drink a haste pot.

Sigh...Aspenor, I think you're too committed to liking this change.

Look at it this way. A mage is still going to be able to just FoD everything, and not be in stealth, or have no aggro, or any of those things. But yet, the assassin rogue is going to have to be in stealth, make sure they have no aggro, be within melee range, and successful connect with the attack. And if the death attack doesn't work, then they can't use it again for 15 seconds, and they'll have to manage to meet all those criteria again (assuming that monster isn't dead already), whereas the mage can just cast PK immediately, or FoD again in less amount of time.

And just think, you'll have to do this for EVERY SINGLE MOB you want to use it on. That's a ton of different key presses, just for the chance you can land a death attack. Really, it's just hardly worth the effort.

Zenako
04-14-2008, 10:56 AM
In my opinion, any new option which gives the players options besides the "I'll run up into the middle of them all and pull them back to our death trap (BB, WoF, etc)" is a good thing. Gives players and groups who want to try and be more tactical about things a better chance to succeed, and it does not take much of anything away from the current status quo for those who want to play that way.

Now once they evolve the AI enough that mobs avoid persistent AoE spells, and make combat more of a two way street, then some of the virtues of things like this will become more significant. I wait to see the enemy clerics ressurecting there allies on the battle field. That would change thinsgs a bit...

krud
04-14-2008, 10:58 AM
And, after all, how hard would it be to sneak up behind this cleric/caster when they get aggrod on that zerging barbarian?? :D

it will be hard when the mob caster is also chasing said barbarian. I have a hard enough time landing a trip or stunning blow on moving casters, I can't imagine what it would be like when sneaking. Even mobs I feint tend to move around a lot. It sounds like this will become a flair move, not something super useful to rogues, especially in zerg groups. Casters will still FoD/destruct most everything in the time it takes to pull off one iffy death strike.

bigal4458
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
Actually, yes. But, the thing is here, you'll use IF, go into stealth mode, and then have to try to make contact with the monster with your death attack when they might be moving all crazily around, and you're moving 50% slower than normal. Fail to connect with that 1 attack, and then you're stuck waiting another 15 seconds.

My problem here, is that this takes what was looking to be a really useful ability and a great boost for the damage dealing rogue, and makes it really difficult to use effectively.

Now you know how we Paladin's feel w/ our Smite Evil's.......

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
Sigh...Aspenor, I think you're too committed to liking this change.

Look at it this way. A mage is still going to be able to just FoD everything, and not be in stealth, or have no aggro, or any of those things. But yet, the assassin rogue is going to have to be in stealth, make sure they have no aggro, be within melee range, and successful connect with the attack. And if the death attack doesn't work, then they can't use it again for 15 seconds, and they'll have to manage to meet all those criteria again (assuming that monster isn't dead already), whereas the mage can just cast PK immediately, or FoD again in less amount of time.

And just think, you'll have to do this for EVERY SINGLE MOB you want to use it on. That's a ton of different key presses, just for the chance you can land a death attack. Really, it's just hardly worth the effort.

It seems like you expect this enhancement to transform a rogue into an instadeath machine, and that's not the case at all.

I think that the adjustments make it balanced. The DC is untouched, so almost no monster in the game will save often on a properly specced rogue. The fact that it makes it a little more difficult to pull off is PART of the balance.

It could be a lot worse. The PNP death attack requires the assassin wait for 3 full rounds and be completely focused on his target (can take no other actions) so he can study the best place to strike for a kill. At least we can move around and do other things between attacks.

dragnmoon
04-14-2008, 11:03 AM
It seems like you expect this enhancement to transform a rogue into an instadeath machine, and that's not the case at all.

I think that the adjustments make it balanced. The DC is untouched, so almost no monster in the game will save often on a properly specced rogue. The fact that it makes it a little more difficult to pull off is PART of the balance.

It could be a lot worse. The PNP death attack requires the assassin wait for 3 full rounds and be completely focused on his target (can take no other actions) so he can study the best place to strike for a kill. At least we can move around and do other things between attacks.

Like I said... for me..it all goes down to what do they mean by "Stealth". On weather I will get it or not... I don't mind the extra moment to go into stealth mode in combat...But I will Mind if I have to Sneak up to combat in stealth mode and Hope I don't get noticed..

Coldin
04-14-2008, 11:03 AM
It seems like you expect this enhancement to transform a rogue into an instadeath machine, and that's not the case at all.

I think that the adjustments make it balanced. The DC is untouched, so almost no monster in the game will save often on a properly specced rogue. The fact that it makes it a little more difficult to pull off is PART of the balance.

It could be a lot worse. The PNP death attack requires the assassin wait for 3 full rounds and be completely focused on his target (can take no other actions) so he can study the best place to strike for a kill. At least we can move around and do other things between attacks.

No, I just expect this enhancement to be actually useful.

Heck, I'd be happier if a change was implemented that we had to wait so many seconds before making a death attack. You could hit the death attack button, a "charging up" animation would activate, and then you could use it on your next attack, so long as that attack is a sneak attack.

Impaqt
04-14-2008, 11:07 AM
No, I just expect this enhancement to be actually useful.

Heck, I'd be happier if a change was implemented that we had to wait so many seconds before making a death attack. You could hit the death attack button, a "charging up" animation would activate, and then you could use it on your next attack, so long as that attack is a sneak attack.
WHich actually would make more sense as the actual useage in PnP is to Study your opponant for 3 rounds I believe.

Persoanlly, rather than being in Sneak mode, Id rather see it require a Flanking attack. Being in sneak mode has no bearing on whether or not the mob has agro on you.

The Best use of this will be with a nice Intimitank. Rogue Sticks with the Intmitank, as soon as he sees the Intim go off, he goes into Stealth mode and waits for ht emobs to get to the tank.. Whammo.....

Zenako
04-14-2008, 11:16 AM
No, I just expect this enhancement to be actually useful.

Heck, I'd be happier if a change was implemented that we had to wait so many seconds before making a death attack. You could hit the death attack button, a "charging up" animation would activate, and then you could use it on your next attack, so long as that attack is a sneak attack.

I think it will be extremely useful to some playstyles and groups, and ignored by others, just like many other PrC enhancements are. You know, the ones that require a lot of prereq's. In some groups my Bards Spellsongs are all but worthless, since none of the other casters seems willing to wait those 2 seconds for the song to pop. At other times, everything clicks.

A death attack without constraints is tantamount to an easy button. If you play with a group which will not let you make use of your characters abilities, but you let the others dictate that they can make use of their abilities, that is the group dynamics fault, not the game design fault.

I admit many many players view each quest as a race to finish as fast as possible, so they can grab some loot, **** and moan how it all sucks this run, and then rinse and repeat. Those players are missing out on just enjoying the tactics and flavor of the game that come from playing it more like a D&D adventure than a connect the dots video game that you drop another quarter in every few minutes...

oronisi
04-14-2008, 11:22 AM
I do.... rarely use it...In fact i have not put points into MS and Hide in a few levels...

The problem I can see..if it requires you to be not only in stealth mode...and Not noticed..*Successful stealth*.. Then it becomes useless for me... Not many groups will wait for me to stealth on something to try to kill it in one shot..

If it is that case..it will be useful for Solo Rogues..and Permadeath Guilds..

Well I can't really think of applying the term 'Assassin' to someone that doesn't know how to move about unnoticed, so the change makes sense to me. I'm more upset over the pre-launch nerf due to how poorly stealth mechanics work in this game, than the linkage of an assasin strike to stealth.

Eldun
04-14-2008, 11:33 AM
I gave up on stealth a long way back (about LV12) when I was maxed as far as possible with a great dex bonus and the highest sneak item possible. Whenever a fight would break out it was as if you never went stealthed. If you will need to be anything more than "in stealth mode" the way of the assassin II will be soooo broke. According to the PnP mechanics you need to study a target while remaining unnoticed then attack. The way I see it is you should have to activate a clickie which then gives you a greenlight to proceed with the attack all the while just remaining in an unaggro'd state from said enemy.

I was very excited about this enhancement line until seeing the changed wording. I suppose the jury will be out until this gets tested either in Risia or live.

GlassCannon
04-14-2008, 11:53 AM
Actually, yes. But, the thing is here, you'll use IF, go into stealth mode, and then have to try to make contact with the monster with your death attack when they might be moving all crazily around, and you're moving 50% slower than normal. Fail to connect with that 1 attack, and then you're stuck waiting another 15 seconds.

My problem here, is that this takes what was looking to be a really useful ability and a great boost for the damage dealing rogue, and makes it really difficult to use effectively.

Factor in the typical latency of 1500ms from server to client to server, and you have yourself a problem. Synch is a HUGE problem in DDO. Requiring Sneak mode is a mistake.

Aspenor
04-14-2008, 11:57 AM
I supposed I can reserve judgement on the utility of the Death Attack until Mod 7 hits Risia, until then all of this discussion is just conjecture.

Cap_Man
04-14-2008, 12:07 PM
It would be nice if you stayed in stealth mode after delivering a successful death attack. Maybe have the other mobs react the same way they do when they sense your presences .. that search pattern thing they do. Then the rogue could either try another target or sneak back to the group after they have dispatched the cleric in the back. A good assassin should be able to leave an area when they want to, not because they are being chased.

It could be a problem if you sneak past a bunch of mobs to get to the caster in the back, dispatch him and then suddenly have the aggro of every other mob in the area. :eek:

Question: If a rogue has a mobs aggro, then a flanking barb gets the aggro, then the rogue hits the stealth button ... does that mean he can now deliver a death attack to the mob? Yeah, I know that DDO is not PnP, but in PnP trying to 'Hide' in that situation would not count as stealthed (unless you had 'hide in plain sight'). :confused:

Westerner
04-14-2008, 12:15 PM
Requiring stealth mode is good flavor but bad game balance. In a typical group, how are you going to get close enough, quickly enough, to make the attack while stealthed?

Zenako
04-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Requiring stealth mode is good flavor but bad game balance. In a typical group, how are you going to get close enough, quickly enough, to make the attack while stealthed?

Change the nature of the "typical group". Why does the nature of the group need to devolve to the lowest common denomenator of Bold Frontal Assault every time. I find that when in smaller groups 2 or 3 or so, we often end up using a lot more of our abilities and skills to beat the quests than when in a full up group, which often has a strong reluctance to think outside the box when it comes to beating the quests/mobs.

LogannX
04-14-2008, 12:27 PM
Its a good change. The skill could actually be overpowered still. Reagrdless I'll use it lots. It was looking too much like an "I win" button before. It looks great still on paper I hope it translates into action. I even see a future respec picking up faster sneaking...not to keep up with the barbarian running figure 8s mashing buttons but to run around to the fringe mobs and dispatch them. Maybe it wont work. I dont generally run in zerg groups though so I cant speak for how it will work there.

bobbryan2
04-14-2008, 12:46 PM
Attacking from sneak mode is still kinda jacked from what it should be. It's one attack (regardless of whether or not you have 2 weapons) and its at your lowest iterative attack bonus.

This change makes the ability take a potential -10 to hit. That is one aspect that's not being discussed at all. Stealth mode should be updated to be actually useful before this ability goes in.

ahpook
04-14-2008, 01:05 PM
Attacking from sneak mode is still kinda jacked from what it should be. It's one attack (regardless of whether or not you have 2 weapons) and its at your lowest iterative attack bonus.

This change makes the ability take a potential -10 to hit. That is one aspect that's not being discussed at all. Stealth mode should be updated to be actually useful before this ability goes in.

A rogue in this scenario should be close to only missing on a roll of 1. The -10 to hit should not be a big deal. If your rogue is not spec'ed to hit in that range, he is not spec'ed to be an assassin anyway.

This is but one path. It should not be the best path for all rogues. If it is, it is overpowered.

Snoggy
04-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Stealth mode should be updated to be actually useful before this ability goes in.

What he said.

The change makes the whole thing too klunky. Not really worth the AP investment.

EinarMal
04-14-2008, 01:10 PM
I think the biggest problem is ever showing the initial form, wow who didn't see that and think that is going to be an super awesome enhancement that every Rogue is going to use.

That said I like the increase in cool down, but do not like the stealth requirement due to server performance, latency/lag etc... and the slow movement speed of sneaking.

I would actually be more open to an even longer cool down, so you pretty much only get 1 or maybe 2 in a long fight versus the stealth requirement.

The flavor of the thing is you don't have agro and then "BAM" take out a mob. This is already required by the sneak attack prereq.

bobbryan2
04-14-2008, 01:18 PM
A rogue in this scenario should be close to only missing on a roll of 1. The -10 to hit should not be a big deal. If your rogue is not spec'ed to hit in that range, he is not spec'ed to be an assassin anyway.

This is but one path. It should not be the best path for all rogues. If it is, it is overpowered.

That's an excuse.

"well you should have a decent enough attack bonus anyway" isn't an actual answer to what is an actual underlying problem, it's trying to downplay it and say that it's not that big of a deal. Just by trying to excuse it, you agree that it's a bit of a problem.

Attacks made from sneaking should be given the benefit of the doubt. You should get the highest possible iterative attack bonus and you should get attacks from both weapons. That's how attacks from stealth should work anyway.

That has nothing to do with WotA really. It's not like WotA rogues are the only ones who should be using sneak and are the only ones that attack.

My problem with the WotA update is that it forces us to use archaic, clunky mechanics that are in a big need of some kind of update. An upgrade to all sneak attacks wouldn't make this ability any more under or overpowered than it would be without a much needed update.

Snoggy
04-14-2008, 01:26 PM
My problem with the WotA update is that it forces us to use archaic, clunky mechanics that are in a big need of some kind of update.

Again ... what he said!

dameron
04-14-2008, 02:17 PM
Without a Hide in Plain Sight enhancement this is going to be pretty useless.

HiPS should probably be in the game anyway for high level rogues.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-14-2008, 02:26 PM
I can see the point in making it only usable when in sneak mode, but really isnt a sneak attack a sneak attack?

What I mean is, a mob is getting beat on by three fighters/barbs and the mob is concentrating on them, thats when
a rogue gets his sneak attack...surely the rogue should be able to pin point where that dagger is going, no? Why
does he have to be physically sneaking?

I dont play a rogue, so it matters not to me, but Im just not sure where the common sense in having to be physically
sneaking comes into play.

Zenako
04-14-2008, 02:37 PM
I can see the point in making it only usable when in sneak mode, but really isnt a sneak attack a sneak attack?

What I mean is, a mob is getting beat on by three fighters/barbs and the mob is concentrating on them, thats when
a rogue gets his sneak attack...surely the rogue should be able to pin point where that dagger is going, no? Why
does he have to be physically sneaking?

I dont play a rogue, so it matters not to me, but Im just not sure where the common sense in having to be physically
sneaking comes into play.

To prevent zerging slaughter of mobs... You get sneak attack damage if the mob is unaware of you, so my sneaky types can often while stealthed move right up next to mobs and get a nice flurry of sneak attacks before the mob reacts. One way my 7th level rogue was able to solo Searing Heights. Sneak up to that guard, nuke him and drop back into sneak mode immediately. Rinse and repeat.

oronisi
04-14-2008, 02:44 PM
I can see the point in making it only usable when in sneak mode, but really isnt a sneak attack a sneak attack?

What I mean is, a mob is getting beat on by three fighters/barbs and the mob is concentrating on them, thats when
a rogue gets his sneak attack...surely the rogue should be able to pin point where that dagger is going, no? Why
does he have to be physically sneaking?

I dont play a rogue, so it matters not to me, but Im just not sure where the common sense in having to be physically
sneaking comes into play.


The devs have already stated that the point of WotA2's special move was for an assassin's strike, to be used as a combat-opener or single-enemy killer. It was never intended to be something you could use in the middle of combat, and the devs thought this was the best way to accomplish that. Before, it was clearly something that was designed to be spammed every 10 seconds like cleave.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-14-2008, 02:53 PM
The devs have already stated that the point of WotA2's special move was for an assassin's strike, to be used as a combat-opener or single-enemy killer. It was never intended to be something you could use in the middle of combat, and the devs thought this was the best way to accomplish that. Before, it was clearly something that was designed to be spammed every 10 seconds like cleave.

Well, thats why I said I understand the change, but I dont understand the common sense to it.

If you hit a mob with sneak attack it brings to mind a sneaky rogue sticking a knife in yer kneck behind yer back...
And if he's trained in the assassins crazy ways that sneak attack could well kill you...

I hope Im explaining myself here...I understand from a gaming point, just not a common sense point.

Angelus_dead
04-14-2008, 02:57 PM
If you hit a mob with sneak attack it brings to mind a sneaky rogue sticking a knife in yer kneck behind yer back...
And if he's trained in the assassins crazy ways that sneak attack could well kill you...
Common sense says that a person who is bouncing around in combat against someone else is not as easy to hit as someone standing there picking his nose. It's not only a question of if he directly sees you or not, but also whether he's actively working to defend himself from attack.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-14-2008, 03:03 PM
Common sense says that a person who is bouncing around in combat against someone else is not as easy to hit as someone standing there picking his nose. It's not only a question of if he directly sees you or not, but also whether he's actively working to defend himself from attack.

Right, but if the mob is actively trying to defend himself from three others, Id imagine a trained rogue would be able to time
his attacks to cause maximum damage, which is basically what I thought a sneak attack was. Throw in assassin's training
and you've a rogue who can time his attack to kill with a single blow.

Cowdenicus
04-14-2008, 03:08 PM
I like the changes, the original form was WAY overpowered.

krud
04-14-2008, 03:12 PM
You should get the highest possible iterative attack bonus and you should get attacks from both weapons....

I believe this will be the way it works in mod7. I remember reading in the smite evil discusion that attacks from combat feats will use the highest iteration (stunning blow, trip, smite, death attack, etc.)


Common sense says that a person who is bouncing around in combat against someone else is not as easy to hit as someone standing there picking his nose. It's not only a question of if he directly sees you or not, but also whether he's actively working to defend himself from attack.

It would be nice if this attack worked like those movies when commandos sneak up on the guards and take them out without making a sound to alert others.

Kire
04-14-2008, 03:44 PM
It was over-powered before...

But now no-one will get a use out of it except constant groups.

Face it. It's a zerging game. The only thing we don't zerg on is red names and purple names and insta death dont work on them..

The best way to do this would be:

Make it an active stance (IE combat expertise). After teh first attack the stance is cancelled automatically. If teh attack is a sneak attack then it is rolled as an insta death. The stance can't be reactivated for 15 seconds.

That would make it so the rogue isn't going to land everytime. Also the mob cant be focused on the rog or it wouldnt be counted as a sneak attack.

It works all around.

~Kire

Snoggy
04-14-2008, 03:50 PM
It was over-powered before...

But now no-one will get a use out of it except constant groups.

Face it. It's a zerging game. The only thing we don't zerg on is red names and purple names and insta death dont work on them..

The best way to do this would be:

Make it an active stance (IE combat expertise). After teh first attack the stance is cancelled automatically. If teh attack is a sneak attack then it is rolled as an insta death. The stance can't be reactivated for 15 seconds.

That would make it so the rogue isn't going to land everytime. Also the mob cant be focused on the rog or it wouldnt be counted as a sneak attack.

It works all around.

~Kire


There are a lot of interesting ways to make it less powered and still much more usable in the DDO combat system. The above post I've quoted is one of those ways.

Having sneak active ... just don't see it being worth the AP investment for something that will be even more frustrating than trying to currently land a trip or a stunning blow when things in combat move around so much. All that hassle ... not worth the AP investment.

bobbryan2
04-14-2008, 04:16 PM
The devs have already stated that the point of WotA2's special move was for an assassin's strike, to be used as a combat-opener or single-enemy killer. It was never intended to be something you could use in the middle of combat, and the devs thought this was the best way to accomplish that. Before, it was clearly something that was designed to be spammed every 10 seconds like cleave.

The problem is... An assassin's strike isn't really very useful in the DDO context.

If there is a room with 6 elite orthon defenders. What's the best way to take them out?

I'll give you a hint.. it isn't for the rogue to singlehandedly stalk up next to one and lay him out flat. And if this is an ability for Rogues to simply be able to kill mobs that are by themselves... well, that's simply not helpful to the rest of the party either, as the vast majority of mobs that are alone aren't going to be a threat to the party anyway.

An assassin's strike would make sense if HIPS (an 8th lvl assassin ability) were in the game.. or if a successful death attack didn't break stealth. But without either of those mechanics... making Death Attack into an Assassin's strike is quite simply, a nerf.

And I think either of those two solutions could potentially make death attack more powerful than it was in its first iteration. HIPS would be quite a kick butt ability, all things considered.

Aesop
04-14-2008, 04:25 PM
Just wanted to say that I think the changes to this enhancement went a long way toward balancing the enhancement while simultaneously keeping it viable for use.

Just in case ya'll missed it, the cooldown was lengthened to 15 seconds and the requirement was put on the attack that the rogue must be in sneak mode to use it.

I'm actually a little unthrilled by this. THe cooldown is fine but having to slip into Sneak mode is really kinda silly. It's just one more button to push for no real reason

Aesop

dragnmoon
04-14-2008, 04:35 PM
To prevent zerging slaughter of mobs... You get sneak attack damage if the mob is unaware of you, so my sneaky types can often while stealthed move right up next to mobs and get a nice flurry of sneak attacks before the mob reacts. One way my 7th level rogue was able to solo Searing Heights. Sneak up to that guard, nuke him and drop back into sneak mode immediately. Rinse and repeat.


Now try to do the in a group of monsters...and see if you going back into sneak mode works..

Dirac
04-14-2008, 04:43 PM
I'm sorry but the sneak-mode requirement is a deal-breaker for me. The majority of time, I would play this character in groups, and going in and out of sneak is not going to work. The other changes are ok. I can agree with nearly everyone's logic, this does not mean much to me. The point is that high level pure rogues were profoundly underpowered. I shelved mine when the combination of enhancement changes and the removal of useful scrolls simply nerfed him to the point of unfun.

The previous WotA II mentioned was so cool that is made me seriously consider bringing out this character I have retired for over a year. The requirement of being in sneak mode is such a hassle, I will not. Period.

Snoggy
04-14-2008, 04:50 PM
The requirement of being in sneak mode is such a hassle, I will not. Period.

Exactly the problem!

Making the enhancement less powerful = decent enough idea with a respectable intention.

Making the enhancement such a hassle to use that it's too annoying to bother with = a very bad idea.

Tying this thing to sneak mode might be "logical" to some ... might make sense in some sort of pnp-flavored context ... but it makes it not worth the time or effort to actually use in the game right now. DDO Combat is too unforgiving of sneak/stealth.

There really has to be a middle ground here. There has to be some other way to de-power the enhancement, without tying it to something so frustrating to use as sneak mode. Something that will achieve the projected level of power but still keep the enhancement attractive enough for rogues to want to get it and use it.

Westerner
04-14-2008, 04:53 PM
There seems to be a conflict between flavor and game balance here. We want to give assassins some cool abilities, but are finding it hard to balance a death attack without nerfing it completely. Stealth is cool, but it should amount to more than a clicky hassle or why bother.

Ideas to fix it:

1) What if the "deadly strike" requires stealth, but generates zero aggro, i.e. mobs wouldn't automatically know where you are. Cooldown timer and risk of being seen provides balance. Use to sneak in and pick off key mobs (requires patience).

2) What if you also give assassins the ability to "pull" a targeted mob without drawing aggro from any other mob. Essentially letting them lure a single mob to its doom. Max uses/day provides balance. Use for picking off key mobs (does not require patience).

This makes the Assassin the guy who can take out that one really annoying mob cleanly without stirring up a hornets nest.

bandyman1
04-15-2008, 12:07 AM
My 2cp;

It's a ***** " fix ".

Now, will it be totally worthless? Depends.

a) If the attack only works when the rogue doesn't have aggro, then it's simply an extra button push, and a timing issue. Granted it's still ******, but it could work.

b) If the attack only works if the mob is totally unaware of the rogues presence, then IMHO, this enhancement has just been nerfed to the point of uselessness, and thanks for nothing Turbine.

Geonis
04-15-2008, 12:23 AM
Step 1) Stay about 2 steps behind the zerging Barb.

Step 2) Jump as you close.

Step 3) Activate Sneak while in mid-air.

Step 4) Kill.

Sometimes, it's just about thinking a little differently.


Edit: It's a Save or Die ability people!!!!!!!!!! It's usable every 15 seconds, and costs no mana, and having to Sneak is to much of a nerf?

Serpent
04-15-2008, 12:26 AM
If anyone has actually read the Assassin prestige class, they will realize that, though this change is not the same, it is more in line with the actual class.

From SRD:
Death Attack

If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

In all fairness letting this be a clicky that is activated is much more suitable for rogues than if it was implemented properly. Requiring it to be a sneak fits in with the description. this ability is not supposed to be a spammed every 16 second attack but something you do every once in a while while separated from your enemy.

Depravity
04-15-2008, 12:28 AM
Now all we need to do is hope it works like FoD as far as generating aggor goes - if they don't see you casting, rest of a group will not come after you when their buddy falls down. I can just see my rogue slowly working his way through a group from behind. Slower than zerging, but much more satisfying.

Serpent
04-15-2008, 12:32 AM
Now all we need to do is hope it works like FoD as far as generating aggor goes - if they don't see you casting, rest of a group will not come after you when their buddy falls down. I can just see my rogue slowly working his way through a group from behind. Slower than zerging, but much more satisfying.

This a fantastic way to look at it and the exact intention of the PRC. The PRC never intended spammed insta-death. Those who want that might be just a little greedy. The answer to a sorc or wizzy, FODing everything is not to make other classes have the same ability. Mobs with a simple deathward solve that problem.

bandyman1
04-15-2008, 01:51 AM
Step 1) Stay about 2 steps behind the zerging Barb.

Step 2) Jump as you close.

Step 3) Activate Sneak while in mid-air.

Step 4) Kill.

Sometimes, it's just about thinking a little differently.


Edit: It's a Save or Die ability people!!!!!!!!!! It's usable every 15 seconds, and costs no mana, and having to Sneak is to much of a nerf?

See my post.

No, having to sneak is not too much of a nerf, IMO.

But, if it's only usable when the mob has no idea you're there ( e.g. You're scouting ahead of the party in stealth mode, or attempting to catch up to the party because they zerged by you while you're in stealth mode ), then yeah; It pretty much blows.

That's why I differentiated between having aggro and having awareness in my post.

Note that in your example, the mob knows you're there. You just don't have aggro. The barb does. If it works that way, it's just another button push. Not a big deal.

If you have to hit sneak before the mob ever sees you, and close the distance in stealth, praying you don't get detected, and that your party actually stays behind while you do so, then it's a completely different ballgame.

And yes Serpent, I know how it works in PnP. But this is a MMO. PnP rules got left behind for MMO style play a LONG time ago.

Borror0
04-15-2008, 03:34 AM
IMO, now it's junk.

In PnP, it makes sense to wait 3 round to kill a monster, but in DDO the combat is much quicker, can't work the same.
Back to the drawing board guys.

Geonis
04-15-2008, 03:35 AM
See my post.

No, having to sneak is not too much of a nerf, IMO.

But, if it's only usable when the mob has no idea you're there ( e.g. You're scouting ahead of the party in stealth mode, or attempting to catch up to the party because they zerged by you while you're in stealth mode ), then yeah; It pretty much blows.

That's why I differentiated between having aggro and having awareness in my post.

Note that in your example, the mob knows you're there. You just don't have aggro. The barb does. If it works that way, it's just another button push. Not a big deal.

If you have to hit sneak before the mob ever sees you, and close the distance in stealth, praying you don't get detected, and that your party actually stays behind while you do so, then it's a completely different ballgame.

And yes Serpent, I know how it works in PnP. But this is a MMO. PnP rules got left behind for MMO style play a LONG time ago.



I really don't think that the mob has to not know you are there, as the game has no mechanic for that. It should be going by the standard sneak attack format, ie. the mob doesn't have you targeted. I seriously doubt the Devs built a whole new mechanic into the game for this one enhancement.

Borror0
04-15-2008, 03:42 AM
I seriously doubt the Devs built a whole new mechanic into the game for this one enhancement.

It's not totally new, it's probably already within the sneak mechanic: You can't sneak if the mob is awared of your presence.

Pyromaniac
04-15-2008, 05:49 AM
IMO no longer worth the enhancement point requirements, given that 99% of groups I play in zerg. How bout we just get +2 to our crit range like barbarians instead and call it a day :)

Vormaerin
04-15-2008, 06:05 AM
So you zerg. That means its not for you and never was intended to be. The PrC and the devs' intentions for this skill were that it be

Geonis
04-15-2008, 06:11 AM
It's not totally new, it's probably already within the sneak mechanic: You can't sneak if the mob is awared of your presence.

Okay, so you can only use this ability once per combat.

I still think that is worth it.

If I told all Wiz/Sorcs, "Okay, you get one free FOD per combat, BUT it has to be used at the beginning of the combat."

I don't think they would have a problem with it.

Even for the AP expenditure.

Borror0
04-15-2008, 06:18 AM
Even for the AP expenditure.

You realise it's like 27 APs (IIRC)?

Geonis
04-15-2008, 06:22 AM
You realise it's like 27 APs (IIRC)?

But, what all do you get for that?

Edit: It's not only the WotA II.

Borror0
04-15-2008, 06:34 AM
But, what all do you get for that?

Useless ones:
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III (6)
Rogue Damage Boost II (3)
Rogue Hide II (3)
Rogue Move Silently II (3)

Halway useful:
Rogue Way of the Assassin I (4)

Useful ones:
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I (1)
Rogue Sneak Attack Training III (6)

Total: 27 APs

Oh which:
15 you'd have never spent an AP on, ever.
7 are useful and you'll probably take it anytime.
4 are halway useful as they are for WotA I, which gives +4 SA damage.
2 are for WotA II itself.

Geonis
04-15-2008, 06:58 AM
Useless ones:
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III (6)
Rogue Damage Boost II (3)
Rogue Hide II (3)
Rogue Move Silently II (3)

Halway useful:
Rogue Way of the Assassin I (4)

Useful ones:
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I (1)
Rogue Sneak Attack Training III (6)

Total: 27 APs

Oh which:
15 you'd have never spent an AP on, ever.
7 are useful and you'll probably take it anytime.
4 are halway useful as they are for WotA I, which gives +4 SA damage.
2 are for WotA II itself.

Okay, first it's 26 points. (6+3+3+3+4+1+6=26)

Second, +3 to attack when Sneak Attacking is not useless (in my opinion), maybe a bit over costly.

Third, it's really 9 worthless APs spent, and that is a little easier to swallow than 27.

That being said, it is a save or die ability!!!


I can see the APs being lowered a little, but not a whole lot.

EinarMal
04-15-2008, 07:05 AM
Okay, first it's 26 points. (6+3+3+3+4+1+6=26)

Second, +3 to attack when Sneak Attacking is not useless (in my opinion), maybe a bit over costly.

Third, it's really 9 worthless APs spent, and that is a little easier to swallow than 27.

That being said, it is a save or die ability!!!


I can see the APs being lowered a little, but not a whole lot.

The best combat Rogue assassin to me will still be Rogue 10/Ranger 6 (feeling a lot better about my build after these changes lol). I was eventually going to pick up WOTA II as well but probably won't now.

Tempest + Rogue Haste Boost + Haste + Dual Vorprals will out insta-death having to run around switching in an out of sneak Mod trying to land these things.

You can keep it....

Geonis
04-15-2008, 07:10 AM
The best combat Rogue assassin to me will still be Rogue 10/Ranger 6 (feeling a lot better about my build after these changes lol). I was eventually going to pick up WOTA II as well but probably won't now.

Tempest + Rogue Haste Boost + Haste + Dual Vorprals will out insta-death having to run around switching in an out of sneak Mod trying to land these things.

You can keep it....

Fine by me, I have a level 4 Halfling Rogue that will be pure and will have both WotA enhancements.

If you want to see some useless enhancements, look at the "Pally Love". :confused:

Hvymetal
04-15-2008, 07:23 AM
Fine by me, I have a level 4 Halfling Rogue that will be pure and will have both WotA enhancements.

If you want to see some useless enhancements, look at the "Pally Love". :confused:
To be quite honest (since I play mainly Rogues but my oldest character is a Paladin) I am kinda underwhelmed for the most part with both, granted the Pally one is bad, but I am not personally feeling the need to take either way of the assasain or acrobat, and no reason to really take way of the mechanic II either, so guess I will be branching out my AP's, just nothing out there that I feel advances my character in any direction I want to go.....

krud
04-15-2008, 07:47 AM
funny how the word "nerf" is used for something that isn't even in game yet. I'm on the fence about this. While i know how hard it is to land stunning blow/trip on a moving mob, I don't think this was intended to be used in the middle of full fledged melee. It's more for taking out unsuspecting stationary targets. If the intention is to limit it's use in melee, then either keep the sneak requirement and make a successful death attack not break sneak mode, or give it a 30 sec timer with no sneak requirement (this will esentially limit it's use to once per encounter).

Westerner
04-15-2008, 08:45 AM
I see some other folks are also proposing having the death attack not break stealth and/or not generate aggro. I think that's great flavor and decent effectiveness combined. However it does impose a patient playstyle.

How about pairing it with the ability to pull aggro on a single mob, making assassins great at luring key mobs out of a group into a party ambush. Max uses/day could provide balance.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 09:14 AM
Okay, first it's 26 points. (6+3+3+3+4+1+6=26)

Second, +3 to attack when Sneak Attacking is not useless (in my opinion), maybe a bit over costly.

Third, it's really 9 worthless APs spent, and that is a little easier to swallow than 27.

That being said, it is a save or die ability!!!


I can see the APs being lowered a little, but not a whole lot.

Yeah... we all know Destruction and FOD take 32 AP to cast.

Save or Die abilities are both already in game, and available for next to no cost.

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:18 AM
You can still do that combo. It'll just take 1 more button press. You do keep sneak on your main hotbar on your rogue, don't you?

Cause that makes soooooooo much sense. Run right up to a mob in PLAIN SIGHT and then sneak?

Get real. It's lame, and all the change did was make sure nobody is going to take it.

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:21 AM
Cause that makes soooooooo much sense. Run right up to a mob in PLAIN SIGHT and then sneak?

Get real. It's lame, and all the change did was make sure nobody is going to take it.if you run up first, the target KNOWS where you are (even after you sneak): in that example, going into sneak could be considered an abstraction of "studying your target" (a pnp requirement of the attack).


is that a stretch? maybe.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 09:22 AM
Cause that makes soooooooo much sense. Run right up to a mob in PLAIN SIGHT and then sneak?

Get real. It's lame, and all the change did was make sure nobody is going to take it.

I will be toying with it on Risia and will more than likely take it. I have more trap skills than I need by a long-shot. This will be a fun flavor.

And just so everybody knows the only requirement for this is gaining sneak attacks and in sneak mode. The rogue will be able to utilize improved feint, drop into sneak and DA the monster.

llevenbaxx
04-15-2008, 09:24 AM
If they added the only from sneak mode thing simply as a time delay for balance purposes(study opponent or w/e), then why not just put the delay in on use? It wouldnt stop people from using it from sneak mode while making less of a pain to use with a number of other possible useful tactics(IF/diplo etc.). It sounds like theyre just adding additional button pushing for the sake of button pushing the way they are planning it now(run up/snk. mode/death att.). These things are supposed to be benefits, why not make them more fun to use for everyone also?

This ability begs to be used with IF and still can be I realize, I guess I just dont like the adding of pointless button pushing that makes no sense and adds nothing. If they want a delay, just add a delay...

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:26 AM
The PNP death attack requires the assassin wait for 3 full rounds and be completely focused on his target (can take no other actions) so he can study the best place to strike for a kill. At least we can move around and do other things between attacks.

This is completely wrong actually.

"While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy."

Have you ever played a PnP assassin? That statement above indicates to me that you haven't.

GlassCannon
04-15-2008, 09:28 AM
Latency and Sneak Mode.

The two do not and will not mix.

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:28 AM
These things are supposed to be benefits, why not make them more fun to use for everyone also?actually, the current mechanic reminds me of a standard rogue tactic in WoW:

1. Vanish (ability that eliminates aggro, enters sneak. basically HIPS)
2. Assassinate (a more powerful attack than "Backstab", only available from sneak)

was probably one of the more entertaining aspects of the entire combat system.

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:29 AM
I will be toying with it on Risia and will more than likely take it. I have more trap skills than I need by a long-shot. This will be a fun flavor.

And just so everybody knows the only requirement for this is gaining sneak attacks and in sneak mode. The rogue will be able to utilize improved feint, drop into sneak and DA the monster.

Again, drop into sneak RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MOB? Tell me, when was the ability hide in plain sight added to this game?That makes no sense at all. I think having a cooldown timer simulates the required 3 rounds of study that an assassin needed to take to use it just fine. "Sneaking" right in front of a mob that just saw you 2 seconds ago without hide in plain sight do you can "Instakill" them is retarted.

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:29 AM
"While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy."
just curious: what other actions are you undertaking when your "attention stays focused on the target" and not being "detected"?

Coldin
04-15-2008, 09:32 AM
just curious: what other actions are you undertaking when your "attention stays focused on the target" and not being "detected"?

Probably move actions. Like getting closer to the enemy, or drawing a weapon.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 09:32 AM
Again, drop into sneak RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MOB? Tell me, when was the ability hide in plain sight added to this game?That makes no sense at all. I think having a cooldown timer simulates the required 3 rounds of study that an assassin needed to take to use it just fine. "Sneaking" right in front of a mob that just saw you 2 seconds ago without hide in plain sight do you can "Instakill" them is retarted.

Well, you may think it's "********" (you know, it's probably not best to use those types of words in forums, some people are PC nuts), but it's the mechanic that Turbine has implemented. The rogue can have been seen by the monster, but if she has some way to gain a sneak attack anyway (i.e. bluff, improved feint, intimidate, or diplomacy) then the rogue can DA the monster if she is in sneaking.

It's an arbitrary design rule that Turbine made for balance purpose.

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:32 AM
if you run up first, the target KNOWS where you are (even after you sneak): in that example, going into sneak could be considered an abstraction of "studying your target" (a pnp requirement of the attack).


is that a stretch? maybe.

That is a total stretch Laith, because if we are comparing this to the PrC assassin's ability (which it was obviously modeled on) the assassin not only has to study for 3 rounds but has to be unnoticed as well. Running up to the front of a mob and going into "sneak" isn't how it works now, and I fail to see how implementing it as such makes any sense at all.

llevenbaxx
04-15-2008, 09:33 AM
actually, the current mechanic reminds me of a standard rogue tactic in WoW:

1. Vanish (ability that eliminates aggro, enters sneak. basically HIPS)
2. Assassinate (a more powerful attack than "Backstab", only available from sneak)

was probably one of the more entertaining aspects of the entire combat system.

But there is no "vanish/HIPS" planned as far as they have told us, making it pointless and a little silly.

CHARGE!!!... sneak.... death attack.:)

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:33 AM
Probably move actions. Like getting closer to the enemy, or drawing a weapon.
oh right.

the kind of action & speed of movement that is allowed in sneak mode.

gotcha.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 09:34 AM
just curious: what other actions are you undertaking when your "attention stays focused on the target" and not being "detected"?


Probably move actions. Like getting closer to the enemy, or drawing a weapon.

Yeah I guess I should have clarified the type of actions you can take...free actions...movement etc...anything that requires focus is a no-go. Then again I didn't know my post from the 1st or 2nd page would be nitpicked this far back. :rolleyes:

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:37 AM
Well, you may think it's "********" (you know, it's probably not best to use those types of words in forums, some people are PC nuts), but it's the mechanic that Turbine has implemented. The rogue can have been seen by the monster, but if she has some way to gain a sneak attack anyway (i.e. bluff, improved feint, intimidate, or diplomacy) then the rogue can DA the monster if she is in sneaking.

It's an arbitrary design rule that Turbine made for balance purpose.

1) I could care less if there are "PC" nuts here.
2) It still doesn't make sense AT ALL.

You see, things like this have convinced me that the developers have no clue as to how to play DnD. They may have the books, but I doubt any of them have actually ever played it. They make arbitrary changes for no justifiable reason, other than the good old "in line with PnP" argument. News flash, this whole game is not in line with PnP. It never has been. Can we just drop the false pretense with all that already?

No disrepect to you here Asp, if you like it and intend to use it more power to you. IMO, I think that this change is unnecessary and makes the whole concept silly.

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:38 AM
But there is no "vanish/HIPS" planned as far as they have told us, making it pointless and a little silly.

CHARGE!!!... sneak.... death attack.:)we all know that sneaking after being detected is the equivalent of crouching and whispering "shh! you can't see me!". the monster looks at you funny, and swings away.

that seems even more proof that it's just an abstraction of the "prepare to strike" sort of mechanic that is included in the pnp ability. they've just lifted the "must not be detected" portion because (frankly) that'd make the ability even WORSE. is that what you're really arguing? you want no-detection/hips?

just look at it again: sneak mode is strikingly similar to offering what a pnp assassin should be allowed to do while preparing for a death attack.

i'm just of the mind that they're trying to just avoid creating another "stance" or "ability" that effectively gives you the same options as sneak, but prepares you for death attack.
Or maybe they really DON'T imagine it being used in the heat of combat... making it an alternative that not many would take. That should be fine though too, shouldn't it? Why does every enhancement have to be so useful that everyone would take it? ESPECIALLY when it comes to specialties...

llevenbaxx
04-15-2008, 09:39 AM
It's an arbitrary design rule that Turbine made for balance purpose.

If this is true why not just add the delay(study target) on use of the death attack?

Borror0
04-15-2008, 09:40 AM
That being said, it is a save or die ability!!!

Save or die ability, whe sneaking, when you've not got aggro... thats starting to become a lot.

Josh
04-15-2008, 09:40 AM
Yeah I guess I should have clarified the type of actions you can take...free actions...movement etc...anything that requires focus is a no-go. Then again I didn't know my post from the 1st or 2nd page would be nitpicked this far back. :rolleyes:

Actually, that would be the DM's call. Personally, I would allow other things based on the situation via concentration checks, or sleight of hand, or something like that. I don't believe that there are any concrete rules on this to be honest. One thing I know for sure is that any character with the death attack ability is most certainly not frozen in place and unable to take any actions while studying their victim.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 09:41 AM
If this is true why not just add the delay(study target) on use of the death attack?

Like a bluff timer thing??

I don't know why. :) Flavor? Random idea? Ease of programming? I really don't know the answer to that.

krud
04-15-2008, 09:43 AM
Yeah... we all know Destruction and FOD take 32 AP to cast.

Save or Die abilities are both already in game, and available for next to no cost.

And bards can fascinate, what's your point? Leave the caster comparisons out of the discussion, they don't belong here. Apples and oranges. Sure, I would also like an enhancement that lets me shoot unlimited maximized delayed blast fireballs out my ass, so I can do damage like a sorcerer, but that's out of character.

Look specifically at what a death strike is and what it isn't supposed to be, and make the adjustments accordingly. Don't make adjustments soley based on "well xxx class can do this and that, so I need something comparable."

llevenbaxx
04-15-2008, 09:44 AM
we all know that sneaking after being detected is the equivalent of crouching and whispering "shh! you can't see me!". the monster looks at you funny, and swings away.

that seems even more proof that it's just an abstraction of the "prepare to strike" sort of mechanic that is included in the pnp ability. they've just lifted the "must not be detected" portion because (frankly) that'd make the ability even WORSE.

it's funny, but from a certain perspective it seems you all want the ability to require no-detection, and be completely useless.

just look at it again: sneak mode is strikingly similar to offering what a pnp assassin should be allowed to do while preparing for a death attack.

LOL that is a good summation.:)

All im saying is they are adding a generic time delay in for all intensive purposes(fine). Why not just make the death attack mechanic reflect this? I personally like clicky attack and hitting many buttons, I also realize I am in the minority on this and would like to see this still very cool ability widely liked and used by the majority. Adding the delay(if that is their intention) to the attack would go a long way in accomplishing that.

Now if they plan on implimenting HIPS in the future, thats a much different story...

Laith
04-15-2008, 09:45 AM
If this is true why not just add the delay(study target) on use of the death attack? heh yeah... because the bluff timer is so popular, and hasn't made the ability completely useless.
if they made the attack a timer, this is the argument everyone would be using.

personally, i'd rather it be a flanking-ability with a longer cooldown than involve sneak.
of course, there'd be alot of issues if it was based around flanking too, often causing the effect to be wasted.
since the enhancement requires bluff, mv. silently, and hide though: i can see why sneak got involved.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 09:46 AM
1) I could care less if there are "PC" nuts here.
2) It still doesn't make sense AT ALL.

You see, things like this have convinced me that the developers have no clue as to how to play DnD. They may have the books, but I doubt any of them have actually ever played it. They make arbitrary changes for no justifiable reason, other than the good old "in line with PnP" argument. News flash, this whole game is not in line with PnP. It never has been. Can we just drop the false pretense with all that already?

No disrepect to you here Asp, if you like it and intend to use it more power to you. IMO, I think that this change is unnecessary and makes the whole concept silly.

No offense taken. To me, the enhancement needed a bit of a balance, especially the lengthened timer. While the sneak mode thing might be a little clumsy and not exactly follow the rules, I tend to keep an open mind as far as balances go for class abilities. If I find that the ability is completely useless and borked, BELIEVE me I will be here posting about it.

Since there's really no seeming definition of a "round" in this game, I found this to be a compromise between the rules and the programming issues involved.

krud
04-15-2008, 09:53 AM
Save or die ability, whe sneaking, when you've not got aggro... thats starting to become a lot.

isn't that what a death strike is suppposed to be? It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be a melee combat ability according to the descriptions.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 10:03 AM
And bards can fascinate, what's your point? Leave the caster comparisons out of the discussion, they don't belong here. Apples and oranges. Sure, I would also like an enhancement that lets me shoot unlimited maximized delayed blast fireballs out my ass, so I can do damage like a sorcerer, but that's out of character.

Look specifically at what a death strike is and what it isn't supposed to be, and make the adjustments accordingly. Don't make adjustments soley based on "well xxx class can do this and that, so I need something comparable."

It's extremely helpful to remind people that save or die abilities are not unique to rogues. Her justification that because it's a save or die ability, the 26 AP cost is more than fair, has no real basis because other similar abilities do not have that cost.

Admittedly, FOD and death attack are not the same thing at all. But, it is important to not similarities in class abilities (though not necessarily the classes themselves).

FOD requires spell points and a spell slot (of which I have 2 level 7 spells)
Death Attack requires 26 AP expenditure (with other bonuses included), sneak attacking, in stealth mode, at melee range, once every 15 seconds.

Are those balanced? Maybe. Playtesting will show more than any analysis here. My inkling is that the stealth mode requirement is going to make this ability far too clunky. It sounded like the devs wanted to make an ability that people would want to wait on the rogue to go kill someone before entering the room. But the stealth mode doesn't actually address that issue at all.

Rogues sneaking into a room to kill one enemy and subsequently aggro everything else in the room on them is simply not helpful. If the devs actually wanted that kind of ability, they needed to introduce HIPS or make a successful death attack not break stealth... or something that absolves the issues that surround a rogue aggroing everything in the room.

So... what is left for the ability? Well, it gets delegated to being an ability that is used on creatures already in combat, aggroed on something else. And why would you have to go into stealth mode then? All that does it make sure the enemy is absolutely not moving, because trying to play with stealth mode and catch a moving target is going to be an impossibility.

It's a clumsy, dumb solution that doesn't even give the ability the intended feel.

Borror0
04-15-2008, 10:04 AM
isn't that what a death strike is suppposed to be? It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be a melee combat ability according to the descriptions.

Flavor-wise? Totally. (But only if they require mobs to not have seen you, ever... or if you're invisible.)

However, a save or die ability, in DDO, with a long cooldown and an hard execution like this one is not-so-neat. Like I've said, in PnP, combat is much slower and usually players don't mind when you're sneaking... but in DDO things are totally different. For the time it's going to take you to deal your Death Attack, the mob will probably be dead.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 10:08 AM
isn't that what a death strike is suppposed to be? It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be a melee combat ability according to the descriptions.

Would you please explain to me how a death strike would be useful in that context?

Rogue: "Hey guys, slow down... there's a group of orthons up there. I want to go take one out before combat begins."
Sorcerer: "Uh... I could just take 'em all out with dismissal from here without ag-------"
Rogue takes off
25 seconds pass
Rogue sneaks up
15 seconds pass
Fighters go afk to grab a drink
Rogue kills an orthon
5 orthons aggro on the rogue
Rogues runs them back and kills the rest of the party

Or maybe the rogue just dies there.

The point is... a save or die ability that reveals you is a) more useless than what we already have in game and b) not even useful in it's own right.

A faaaar better strategy would be to simply cast a dancing sphere and vorpal the orthons in the room. The stealth and subterfuge are time and resource consuming for no real good reason.

Zenako
04-15-2008, 10:18 AM
Would you please explain to me how a death strike would be useful in that context?

Rogue: "Hey guys, slow down... there's a group of orthons up there. I want to go take one out before combat begins."
Sorcerer: "Uh... I could just take 'em all out with dismissal from here without ag-------"
Rogue takes off
25 seconds pass
Rogue sneaks up
15 seconds pass
Fighters go afk to grab a drink
Rogue kills an orthon
5 orthons aggro on the rogue
Rogues runs them back and kills the rest of the party

Or maybe the rogue just dies there.

The point is... a save or die ability that reveals you is a) more useless than what we already have in game and b) not even useful in it's own right.

A faaaar better strategy would be to simply cast a dancing sphere and vorpal the orthons in the room. The stealth and subterfuge are time and resource consuming for no real good reason.

Well the first rogue who offers to suicide into a room full of Orthons can be my guest, but that is exactly NOT the kind of encounter this enhancement is meant for. How about instead you put a nasty Windlasher caster in that room and a bunch of archer gnolls for example. Sneak in, take out the caster, with displacement and some movement find a spot and avoid the archers while everyone now returns to normal zerg killing of everything without the enemy caster dropping a few pain in the butt spells like, Sleet Storm or Ice Storm or whatever or things like that. OR perhaps sneaking into a room with a Beholder and IK it!! Sneaking into a room with 6 Orthons is exactly NOT the point of this.

binnsr
04-15-2008, 10:24 AM
Well the first rogue who offers to suicide into a room full of Orthons can be my guest, but that is exactly NOT the kind of encounter this enhancement is meant for. How about instead you put a nasty Windlasher caster in that room and a bunch of archer gnolls for example. Sneak in, take out the caster, with displacement and some movement find a spot and avoid the archers while everyone now returns to normal zerg killing of everything without the enemy caster dropping a few pain in the butt spells like, Sleet Storm or Ice Storm or whatever or things like that. OR perhaps sneaking into a room with a Beholder and IK it!! Sneaking into a room with 6 Orthons is exactly NOT the point of this.
The point was that in the minute or so that it took you to sneak into the room (with the beholder or nasty(tm) caster) and slit its throat (do beholders have a throat to slit?), the sorcerer or wizard or cleric could have PK/FoD/Destruct/FTS'd the same mob in a second or so.
Time is money - both in life and in MMOs - so, while there may be groups who are willing to let the rogue sneak off and slaughter 1 mob over a 1-2 minute timeframe, most groups are going to continue letting the sorc/cleric/wiz instakill them. After all, what's a few sp when you have nearly 2000 (or more for sorcs)?

krud
04-15-2008, 10:28 AM
A faaaar better strategy would be to simply cast a dancing sphere and vorpal the orthons in the room. The stealth and subterfuge are time and resource consuming for no real good reason.

agreed, but giving rogues a melee FoD ability just because sorcs can do it, or just for balance isn't a good thing either. As it stands now you need to be in sneak mode, and be able to gain a sneak attack. You are not hitting more buttons than any other melee combo, such as intimidate/cleave/greatcleave. Clunky on mobs moving around in combat, yes, but I don't feel this ability is intended for chasing down mobs running around in combat. Better suited to the caster standing behind the mobs. As others have said, the sneak button is like preparing for the strike. btw - when trying to gain sneak attacks, do you run up to a mob that has aggro'ed you already? Probably not, so the no aggro part shouldn't add anything more to what a rogue already does.

oronisi
04-15-2008, 10:29 AM
Rogues sneaking into a room to kill one enemy and subsequently aggro everything else in the room on them is simply not helpful. If the devs actually wanted that kind of ability, they needed to introduce HIPS or make a successful death attack not break stealth... or something that absolves the issues that surround a rogue aggroing everything in the room.

So... what is left for the ability? Well, it gets delegated to being an ability that is used on creatures already in combat, aggroed on something else. And why would you have to go into stealth mode then? All that does it make sure the enemy is absolutely not moving, because trying to play with stealth mode and catch a moving target is going to be an impossibility.

It's a clumsy, dumb solution that doesn't even give the ability the intended feel.

You are assuming every mob in this game exists within a room full of other mobs. That is simply not the case. Go do Running with the Devils and pay attention to where the enemies are. Better yet, go watch Ghoste's video of soloing that dungeon. There are several mobs you can isolate, and if you learn how to sneak or how to pull, you can get even more isolated.

If you plan on using this ability solely for in-combat or as a starting move, planning on ****ing off the 10 other mobs to kill 1, this enhancement is NOT for you. Get WotTA or WotM.

If you solo, if you are sneaky, if you know how to wait for the opportune moment to strike, then WotM is for you.

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 10:30 AM
The point was that in the minute or so that it took you to sneak into the room (with the beholder or nasty(tm) caster) and slit its throat (do beholders have a throat to slit?), the sorcerer or wizard or cleric could have PK/FoD/Destruct/FTS'd the same mob in a second or so.
Time is money - both in life and in MMOs - so, while there may be groups who are willing to let the rogue sneak off and slaughter 1 mob over a 1-2 minute timeframe, most groups are going to continue letting the sorc/cleric/wiz instakill them. After all, what's a few sp when you have nearly 2000 (or more for sorcs)?

A knowledgeable thief could sneak ahead of the party and deal with threats like a solitary beholder while his party is still behind him taking care of other issues.

I will reserve my judgement for the ease of connecting with a DA in combat until I can see it on Risia.

Zenako
04-15-2008, 10:35 AM
The point was that in the minute or so that it took you to sneak into the room (with the beholder or nasty(tm) caster) and slit its throat (do beholders have a throat to slit?), the sorcerer or wizard or cleric could have PK/FoD/Destruct/FTS'd the same mob in a second or so.
Time is money - both in life and in MMOs - so, while there may be groups who are willing to let the rogue sneak off and slaughter 1 mob over a 1-2 minute timeframe, most groups are going to continue letting the sorc/cleric/wiz instakill them. After all, what's a few sp when you have nearly 2000 (or more for sorcs)?

Sure and those are the same groups or playing mindsets that won't think about waiting for Manyshot to reset, or for (in the near future) Smites to regen a bit, etc or for anything that has a timer. If they had made Rage work like in PnP with the real impact of being fatiqued after raging enforced instead of easily and trivially overcome, then I suspect we could add Barbarians and their rage ability to the won't wait recovery syndrome as well (but alas the devs did not and all we see are 24/7 raged barbarians inside quests...sigh). If they had kept metamagics to wizards and not sorcs then some of that abuse would be lessened too. (Sorcs should get more SP and faster casting but not have access to meta at the same time...in my opinion that would have been more balanced, since in an MMO the need for many of the utility spells a Wiz could access is a whole lot less...)

bandyman1
04-15-2008, 10:36 AM
I really don't think that the mob has to not know you are there, as the game has no mechanic for that. It should be going by the standard sneak attack format, ie. the mob doesn't have you targeted. I seriously doubt the Devs built a whole new mechanic into the game for this one enhancement.

It doesn't???

Tell you what. Run a little experiment for me. Head into a quest with a high diplo buddy.

Now, both of you casually walk up to the first group of enimies you encounter, making no attempts to conceal your presence. You go into sneak mode, and let your buddy hit diplo as the mob closes in, and tell me what happens.

Now, for the next group, you approach them in stealth mode from a distance. When you are close to them but not detected, let your friend close the distance on the mob in full view. Once the mob closes in on him, tell him to hit diplo again, and tell me what happens.

Just lmao.

dameron
04-15-2008, 01:03 PM
isn't that what a death strike is suppposed to be? It doesn't sound like it's supposed to be a melee combat ability according to the descriptions.

One look at a PnP Assassin's spell list should make it clear that yes, this is supposed to be a melee combat ability and yes it's supposed to be something they can use more than once per encounter.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 01:04 PM
Well the first rogue who offers to suicide into a room full of Orthons can be my guest, but that is exactly NOT the kind of encounter this enhancement is meant for. How about instead you put a nasty Windlasher caster in that room and a bunch of archer gnolls for example. Sneak in, take out the caster, with displacement and some movement find a spot and avoid the archers while everyone now returns to normal zerg killing of everything without the enemy caster dropping a few pain in the butt spells like, Sleet Storm or Ice Storm or whatever or things like that. OR perhaps sneaking into a room with a Beholder and IK it!! Sneaking into a room with 6 Orthons is exactly NOT the point of this.

Not this kind of encounter? What kind of encounter is "this"? Do you mean this ability is not meant for difficult encounters? What, praytell, is difficult about a room full of archers with a single caster in the back? Why would you not just rush into this room, FOD the caster and throw a firewall on the immobile archers (all while having the bramblecasters and appropriate resistances, and thus being completely immune to arrow fire).

I mean... on the one hand.. sure it gives you yet another way to deal with an otherwise easy encounter. What I want from a high level ability is a new way to deal with difficult encounters. Such as half a dozen shock troops.

That goes for the person that said I was assuming every mob in this game is in a big group. No, I dno't assume that at all... but those are actually the only mobs I care about. If you're having trouble dealing with the solitary mobs.. how are you going to take out the big groups of them?

Now... I'm not saying that because Sorcerers wield phenomenal cosmic power, then so too should rogues. What I am saying.. is that this ability was already less powerful than a sorcerer FOD, and it was downtweaked to a point where now we have to activate seperate combat stances, slowing down the rate of death, and generally making the ability even more annoying to use. This doesn't even mention the loss of the +4 to sneak attack damage that was being granted 2 weeks ago.

Again... there are several synergetic abilities that would suddenly make this ability a lot more palatable, such as also granting WotA II Rogues HIPS, or making it so that WotA II rogues don't immediately leave hiding on a successful death attack.

But the way it's currently going to be implemented is adding complexity for complexities sake, and putting flavor on a pedastool above playability.

Playability should always trump flavor and lore in a video game.

krud
04-15-2008, 02:43 PM
One look at a PnP Assassin's spell list should make it clear that yes, this is supposed to be a melee combat ability and yes it's supposed to be something they can use more than once per encounter.

yes, it's a melee combat ability in the sense that you attack with a weapon, but not in the sense that you jump into a bunch of meleeing combatants and throw death attacks left and right.

Cowdenicus
04-15-2008, 02:54 PM
yes, it's a melee combat ability in the sense that you attack with a weapon, but not in the sense that you jump into a bunch of meleeing combatants and throw death attacks left and right.

Sure it should, I mean with only 8d6 +what 30 sneak attack damage available right now to rogues, you dont think they can do anything effectively through dps do you?

I mean lets keep it real.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 02:56 PM
yes, it's a melee combat ability in the sense that you attack with a weapon, but not in the sense that you jump into a bunch of meleeing combatants and throw death attacks left and right.

That's precisely how combat takes place in this game. Simply requiring this ability to be done from stealth mode won't actually change that without making some fundamental changes to other systems.

Death Attack should be modified to work in a fast paced MMO combat environment.

Kire
04-15-2008, 03:15 PM
Fine.. You want it while sneaking for Flavor... Heres my compromise:

Make it usable on red names.

~Kire

Zenako
04-15-2008, 03:16 PM
That's precisely how combat takes place in this game. Simply requiring this ability to be done from stealth mode won't actually change that without making some fundamental changes to other systems.

Death Attack should be modified to work in a fast paced MMO combat environment.

While that is the way you and some/many players encounter mobs, that does not mean it is the same for everyone.

As to part two above, why? Why does everything need to be optimized to cater to the zerg mindset? Are not other playstyles just as valid options?

dragnmoon
04-15-2008, 03:24 PM
While that is the way you and some/many players encounter mobs, that does not mean it is the same for everyone.

As to part two above, why? Why does everything need to be optimized to cater to the zerg mindset? Are not other playstyles just as valid options?


Goinng into Combat...does Not mean Zerg..

Zerging Is running past combat to get to the meat of the quest..

That said..

The majority of a DDO does things the 'easiest' way... Most players do not have the patience to wait for a Rogue to sneak up to kill one thing.. when it would be easier just to FoD it...

It is not tactically beneficial for the players to have the rogue go in to kill one thing...get the aggro and pull it back t the group..or get killed because of it... And most of the time..the monster are in groups..not by them selfs..

For the cost it would take to get this ability for something that is not going to be able to be used as much if it requires to sneak in unseen.. it is just not worth it...for any play style.. there are much better ways of doing it..

MMO players in the majority are impatient.. that does not mean they Zerg.. I hate Zerging.. I love using Tactics... But tactically this power sucks *if it requires to sneak in unseen*

Kire
04-15-2008, 03:27 PM
While that is the way you and some/many players encounter mobs, that does not mean it is the same for everyone.

As to part two above, why? Why does everything need to be optimized to cater to the zerg mindset? Are not other playstyles just as valid options?

It should be viable for any playstyle... Every other insta death in the game can be used in any playstyle..

Right now thsi is onyl usable for slowly moving groups. Removing the need to be in sneak would make it viable for any playstyle.

Wanna RP and go slow? Have the rogue go into sneak and take out the problem mobs.

Wanna zerg? IF and bluff and the rog can be almost promised a chance to kill something every 15 sec without the other characters losing their chance to do it. In between the insta kills a Barb will do more dps (normally) or a caster will FOD/PK faster.

There's your balance.

~Kire

Laith
04-15-2008, 03:33 PM
Why does everything need to be optimized to cater to the zerg mindset? Are not other playstyles just as valid options?
imo, arguments against WotA requiring stealth have little to do with zerging.

i'm not completely against the current setup, but even i admit that it won't be a simple maneuver to pull off in active combat. but then again: that seems to be the whole point of the change.


It should be viable for any playstyleis it honestly a big surprise that rogues get a specialty that's based at least in a token manner around stealth?

it's just funny how it's taken this for stealth to become a hot-button issue again.
and it's not even because of actually USING stealth...

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 03:33 PM
While that is the way you and some/many players encounter mobs, that does not mean it is the same for everyone.

As to part two above, why? Why does everything need to be optimized to cater to the zerg mindset? Are not other playstyles just as valid options?

What is this whole... zerg mindset preoccupation you have? I'm not talking about strategies because they're zerging strategies.. I'm talking about strategies because they're the 'optimal' strategies.

There's not anything zergy about a caster staying out of range of mobs and taking them out one by one with a dismissal. If anything, it's utilizing stealth (sort of), patience, and tactics. But it also the safest and, many times, optimal strategy.

You've got this odd facination with calling mainstream tactics zerging, and that's fine I guess, but it's clouding your opinion of the ability. Many of my suggestions, like implementing HIPS or having death attack not break stealth, are by their very nature anti-zerging.

What I run into, many times, are people that cling to inferior tactics for dealing with situations, and then claiming the higher ground by calling it playing methodically or tactically. Sometimes the best strategy is to bum rush, and sometimes it's to stay back and body pull guys one at a time into ambushes. To say that one type of strategy is better is silly, as everything is situational.

My main point about this ability is that it doesn't seem like it will ever be the optimal strategy to deal with enemies. It's not the optimal strategy when dealing with large groups... it's not the optimal strategy when dealing with mid sized groups of hard opponents, it's not the optimal strategy with one hard creature and lots of trash mobs, and it's not even time or resource effective when dealing with single, stationary creatures.

What strategy, then, is this ability catering to? The people that are going to try to fit stealth and subterfuge into every single encounter like pushing a square block into a round hole? Perhaps... maybe you can find some encounters that it would be useful to use this ability over some given other idea like pulling three guys through an underpowered trap.

For you to say that I think of each encounter the same way, shows to me that you have little understanding of the approach of many "powergamers". Most powergamers zerg because the encounters are now easy for them... not for simply the sake of zerging. The easiest way to see a powergamer get annoyd is to put him in a group full of people that are zerging ahead and dying and making the quest go longer and more difficult. Surprise! That's the same encounter that annoys people that take a more methodical approach to the game. The problem isn't a zerging mentality, it's just bad players. You should learn to seperate the two before dismissing someone's ideas on an ability because of your idea of how they approach encounters.

Raithe
04-15-2008, 03:36 PM
Rogues sneaking into a room to kill one enemy and subsequently aggro everything else in the room on them is simply not helpful.

If a rogue was particularly careful, he could sneak around and kill everything in a room without anyone gaining mob aggro. This is what would be required:

1) The rest of the party was off doing something else. We could always hope for non-linear quest designs, couldn't we?
2) The rogue finds the target that allows him to not be noticed upon coming out of sneak.
3) The rogue successfully death attacks this target.
4) The rogue immediately goes back into stealth before moving again.
5) Repeat steps 2 through 4 until all targets are dead.



If the devs actually wanted that kind of ability, they needed to introduce HIPS or make a successful death attack not break stealth... or something that absolves the issues that surround a rogue aggroing everything in the room.


Another possibility... "kite" one mob at a time out of the room. The tactics for doing this are similar to what many people use for part 2 of the Shroud to get one red-named at a time. I personally use ranged fire and/or invisibility to accomplish it.

And HIPS with the current AI and game system would make current gameplay even more ridiculous.



So... what is left for the ability? Well, it gets delegated to being an ability that is used on creatures already in combat, aggroed on something else. And why would you have to go into stealth mode then?


To prove that you aren't being harrassed. If you have aggro, it is difficult to maintain sneak mode. It should also be difficult to get off a death attack.

Kire
04-15-2008, 03:41 PM
is it honestly a big surprise that rogues get a specialty that's based at least in a token manner around stealth?

it's just funny how it's taken this for stealth to become a hot-button issue again.
and it's not even because of actually USING stealth...

It would still require some stealth. You can't be noticed. That sounds sneaky to me.

~Kire

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 03:52 PM
If a rogue was particularly careful, he could sneak around and kill everything in a room without anyone gaining mob aggro. This is what would be required:

1) The rest of the party was off doing something else. We could always hope for non-linear quest designs, couldn't we?
2) The rogue finds the target that allows him to not be noticed upon coming out of sneak.
3) The rogue successfully death attacks this target.
4) The rogue immediately goes back into stealth before moving again.
5) Repeat steps 2 through 4 until all targets are dead.


Well, while that sounds good on paper, I'd have to see the mechanics. Ignoring for a moment that the first assumption is pretty ridiculous. Not because it's an unreasonable request... but because it's not really a reality. But going back... it really depends on how the ability is coded... the second assumption might be as equally unlikely.

We can all hope that the monster will just die like a successful FOD and you won't aggro everything within the immediate area, but from what I know of combat abilities (melee in particular)... that's not the case.

Zenako
04-15-2008, 03:55 PM
Small clarification - I probably use the term zerg too literally for some purposes here. I am using it to characterize a mindset that the "best way" to do a quest is to optimize (minimize) the time required by zooming from each point to the next as fast as is reasonably possible. To that mindset that the goal of the quest is to basically just finish it, tally of the loot and rinse and repeat. Versus those who prefer to a) smell the roses, or b) roleplay some, c) take it slow so that they can actually look around and see something other than vanishing butts in the distance ahead of them, or d) in any way want to play in a less than rushed feeling.

Now I have run thru quests plenty of times in swift and rapid fashion (ie zerging from my perspective) with groups (guild and pug) and that is one way to play. I find running something like PotP for the 50th time (across toons) to be rote and mainly a loot run these days with little other incentive to extend the process. Now I also will play solo and in small 2/3 person groups and engage in totally different playstyles, which cater to entirely different mindsets and often how to approach quests. Often times the enjoyment from those sessions is with the play and the journey, with the end rewards or chests being mostly a byproduct instead of the goal. I can often end up having as much fun taking 3 hours doing a quest with another style that could normally be finished by "standard methods" in 30 minutes. (for example, how many have actually explored around the wilderness areas in Tempest Spine, have found the outdoor shrines out there...etc. I explored tangleroot before it was even called an explorer area with my Ranger. It was just "fun" for me to do that. I got squat for EXP or loot, but personal fun and satisifaction from doing it.)

It is clear that to a great many players, THE number one currency of importance to them is TIME. That they want to somehow feel that they optimize the time they spend in the game, and for them, that often translates into running as many quests in that time as they can. They get bored just being with others and not "doing something". For others, just "being" for periods of time is satisfying and rewarding, at least using the imprecise currency called fun.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 04:03 PM
is it honestly a big surprise that rogues get a specialty that's based at least in a token manner around stealth?

it's just funny how it's taken this for stealth to become a hot-button issue again.
and it's not even because of actually USING stealth...

No, I actually agree completely. It's sad that the first time stealth even gets brought up is because some new ability is making players even push the stealth button. If anything, I think that's a testament to the public opinion that stealth is completely broken.

This topic came up a number of months ago, with a few devs fiercely defending stealth working in the context of that one harbor quest. :) To me the very fact that so many people thought it was totally impossible was an indication of one of the bigger problems I had with stealth in DDO: that it was far too centered on twitch skills and not nearly enough on character and monster skills.

Don't get me wrong, I love twitch gaming myself, and I find learning new systems to be part of the fun of playing a game. But I also recognize that there are so many people that don't enjoy even small things like jumping across spike traps in Rainbow and/or jumping up the shafts in Coalesence. Coupled with the fact that in my experience the people that most eagerly flock to rogues are the people that enjoy tactical (read: not twitch), methodical, pnp-like gameplay, (only my observations) and you pretty much spell the end of the stealth character. The few characters that utilized stealth in high level quests were doing so more for the prestige, and usually did it solo.

It's one of those problems they had with them constantly speeding up the rate of everything. Spell cooldowns get shorter, alacrity itmes come out, people have bigger striding items, they release spring boosts, people start using quicken metamagics, etc etc. Rogue abilities all remain anachronistically slow. It takes you 45 seconds to search out a trap or secret door, while the mage has time to sift through their pack, pull out a wand, cast it, and switch back to his weapon before you're even half done.

Rogue mechanics have needed some updates for a long time. I'm at least thankful for this ability for the chance to put those issues under the spotlight again.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 04:12 PM
Small clarification - I probably use the term zerg too literally for some purposes here. I am using it to characterize a mindset that the "best way" to do a quest is to optimize (minimize) the time required by zooming from each point to the next as fast as is reasonably possible. To that mindset that the goal of the quest is to basically just finish it, tally of the loot and rinse and repeat. Versus those who prefer to a) smell the roses, or b) roleplay some, c) take it slow so that they can actually look around and see something other than vanishing butts in the distance ahead of them, or d) in any way want to play in a less than rushed feeling.

Now I have run thru quests plenty of times in swift and rapid fashion (ie zerging from my perspective) with groups (guild and pug) and that is one way to play. I find running something like PotP for the 50th time (across toons) to be rote and mainly a loot run these days with little other incentive to extend the process. Now I also will play solo and in small 2/3 person groups and engage in totally different playstyles, which cater to entirely different mindsets and often how to approach quests. Often times the enjoyment from those sessions is with the play and the journey, with the end rewards or chests being mostly a byproduct instead of the goal. I can often end up having as much fun taking 3 hours doing a quest with another style that could normally be finished by "standard methods" in 30 minutes. (for example, how many have actually explored around the wilderness areas in Tempest Spine, have found the outdoor shrines out there...etc. I explored tangleroot before it was even called an explorer area with my Ranger. It was just "fun" for me to do that. I got squat for EXP or loot, but personal fun and satisifaction from doing it.)

It is clear that to a great many players, THE number one currency of importance to them is TIME. That they want to somehow feel that they optimize the time they spend in the game, and for them, that often translates into running as many quests in that time as they can. They get bored just being with others and not "doing something". For others, just "being" for periods of time is satisfying and rewarding, at least using the imprecise currency called fun.


Strategies that involve one player doing all the work SHOULD be fast from a gameplay perspective. Why would the other 5 people want to wait around and watch somebody else play the game for them? I don't think the majority of players want strategies that require a single player to spend 5 minutes killing a room off while everyone else goes afk.

By the nature of stealth, only one person is really going to be doing it.

I think stealth should be a 'lot' faster in this game for that reason. Look how fast casting is with a sorc? And all 5 other people can still partake and have fun with the sorcerer.

For some people, it's all about getting through the quest as fast as possible. But for most people, it's simply being active and proactive, and doing something. They care less about how long it takes them to get through the quest, but more on how much fun they had beating the quest.

krud
04-15-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm not opposed to making DA viable in combat, but why must every instadeath ability be compared to a casters FoD or destruct? It sounds like whining about someone else getting a bigger piece of cake. As far as the ability itself, compared to PnP it has been sped up quite a bit to fit into a fast paced MMO. No 3 rounds of observation, just sneak. In order to pull one off you need to hotkey TWO keys, sneak and DA. It's not as impossible as some of you are making it out to be. I do it all the time with IF/cleave, or intimidate/cleave/great cleave. Some people just want to spam DA in combat and find two keys too much trouble. Somehow chasing down a flailing/running mob and hitting him with a death attack doesn't strike me as one of DAs intended uses. edit - that would be more like "killing blow" for rogues (like stunning blow is for ftrs) instead of an assassin's death attack.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 04:43 PM
I'm not opposed to making DA viable in combat, but why must every instadeath ability be compared to a casters FoD or destruct? It sounds like whining about someone else getting a bigger piece of cake.

Haha.

Because those are the only instant death attacks in the GAME! What should we be comparing them to? Spike Growth?

It's less about whining about someone else getting a piece of the pie. The class vs class arguments are incredibly tame here at DDO. It's because people can cap as many characters and classes as they want, so they don't really get invested in one class over the other.

People compare Death Attack to FOD because they know FOD, they're used to FOD. Quite a few of the rogues that will use Death Attack already use FOD. I don't care if it's exactly like FOD or works the same as FOD... I just want it to be as viable, and as easy to use as FOD.

This whole... down R, Up L, Y, B in order to activate the ability is kind of a turn off to the point and click nature of FOD. People already had threads complaining about the "YAC" abilities that have been coming out. "Yet Another Clicky" And now we have Death attack which is not only Yet another Clicky... but it's a double clicky! A clicky that needs to be done in tandem, within a certain melee range.

That's annoying!

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 04:57 PM
It would still require some stealth. You can't be noticed. That sounds sneaky to me.

~Kire

Untrue. You CAN BE NOTICED.

All you need is to be gaining a sneak attack and be in sneak mode. That is all. Heck, my rogue will be getting death attack kills from improved feint then sneak then kill, even when there are NO other PC's around to take aggro away from be.

This whole bit about not being able to be noticed is complete nonsense.

krud
04-15-2008, 04:58 PM
Haha.

Because those are the only instant death attacks in the GAME! What should we be comparing them to? Spike Growth?
Forget about FoD. Don't compare it to anything else but what a death attack is supposed to be. It is not an instadeath spell, it is a completely different ability.

It's less about whining about someone else getting a piece of the pie. The class vs class arguments are incredibly tame here at DDO. It's because people can cap as many characters and classes as they want, so they don't really get invested in one class over the other.

People compare Death Attack to FOD because they know FOD, they're used to FOD. Quite a few of the rogues that will use Death Attack already use FOD. I don't care if it's exactly like FOD or works the same as FOD... I just want it to be as viable, and as easy to use as FOD.

This whole... down R, Up L, Y, B in order to activate the ability is kind of a turn off to the point and click nature of FOD. People already had threads complaining about the "YAC" abilities that have been coming out. "Yet Another Clicky" And now we have Death attack which is not only Yet another Clicky... but it's a double clicky! A clicky that needs to be done in tandem, within a certain melee range.

That's annoying !

How about calling it killing blow and forget about calling it way of the assassin death attack. How about require rogues to take the feat stunning blow, and make the enhancement turn the feat into "killing blow" with the save dc based off INT and sneak attack requirement, and the mechanics of stunning blow if that's what you want? That way there is no confusion with trying to make it conform to the PnP description of death attack.

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 05:01 PM
Untrue. You CAN BE NOTICED.

All you need is to be gaining a sneak attack and be in sneak mode. That is all. Heck, my rogue will be getting death attack kills from improved feint then sneak then kill, even when there are NO other PC's around to take aggro away from be.

This whole bit about not being able to be noticed is complete nonsense.

It's not so much nonsense as confusion over the ambiguity of the wording. It says that it needs to be done from stealth... the question was asked... Does that mean it has to be done from Sneak mode or does that mean that it has to be done on a creature on which the rogue doesn't even appear on the aggro list.

Admittedly, it's a bit of a stretch.. but as none of us have playtested it, it's hard to be sure exactly how the attack will work.

And man... I dunno how you ever manage to get Improved Feint to not just **** you off. That's all that ability ever does to me... Bluff is even worse... I usually have time to maybe get in one sneak attack off before before it wears off... I dunno how I'm gonna be working Sneak + death attack in without blowing a fuse.

Snoggy
04-15-2008, 05:24 PM
That said..

The majority of a DDO does things the 'easiest' way... Most players do not have the patience to wait for a Rogue to sneak up to kill one thing..

Exactly the problem!

I could not state it any plainer than you have.

For the amount of action points required to purchase this, it becomes an over-priced novelty that is usable every now and then simply because the combat system is far too fast paced for it.

Snoggy
04-15-2008, 05:28 PM
No, I actually agree completely. It's sad that the first time stealth even gets brought up is because some new ability is making players even push the stealth button. If anything, I think that's a testament to the public opinion that stealth is completely broken.

This topic came up a number of months ago, with a few devs fiercely defending stealth working in the context of that one harbor quest. :) To me the very fact that so many people thought it was totally impossible was an indication of one of the bigger problems I had with stealth in DDO: that it was far too centered on twitch skills and not nearly enough on character and monster skills.

Don't get me wrong, I love twitch gaming myself, and I find learning new systems to be part of the fun of playing a game. But I also recognize that there are so many people that don't enjoy even small things like jumping across spike traps in Rainbow and/or jumping up the shafts in Coalesence. Coupled with the fact that in my experience the people that most eagerly flock to rogues are the people that enjoy tactical (read: not twitch), methodical, pnp-like gameplay, (only my observations) and you pretty much spell the end of the stealth character. The few characters that utilized stealth in high level quests were doing so more for the prestige, and usually did it solo.

It's one of those problems they had with them constantly speeding up the rate of everything. Spell cooldowns get shorter, alacrity itmes come out, people have bigger striding items, they release spring boosts, people start using quicken metamagics, etc etc. Rogue abilities all remain anachronistically slow. It takes you 45 seconds to search out a trap or secret door, while the mage has time to sift through their pack, pull out a wand, cast it, and switch back to his weapon before you're even half done.

Rogue mechanics have needed some updates for a long time. I'm at least thankful for this ability for the chance to put those issues under the spotlight again.


Wow. Another insightful and informative post.

Sorry to keep gushing it's just ... you keep speaking what's on my mind so well here!

Zenako
04-15-2008, 05:33 PM
Wow. Another insightful and informative post.

Sorry to keep gushing it's just ... you keep speaking what's on my mind so well here!

You do realize Snoggy that if you keep this up his head will explode!!!:eek:

Kire
04-15-2008, 05:42 PM
Untrue. You CAN BE NOTICED.

All you need is to be gaining a sneak attack and be in sneak mode. That is all. Heck, my rogue will be getting death attack kills from improved feint then sneak then kill, even when there are NO other PC's around to take aggro away from be.

This whole bit about not being able to be noticed is complete nonsense.

Sorry maybe we have different definitions of unnoticed. Mine:

The mob not concetrating on you, Not targeting you.

Yours (apparantly):

Not being seen.

Now to gain a sneak attack the mob cannot be targeted on you. Therefore they aren't focusing on you. I consider that if a mob isnt focused on you they are not going to noticebly block an attack to a vulnerable spot. They might move right before the attack and cause you to miss (IE a save). Now if a mob isnt targeted on you why you should you have to be sneaking in shadows to get a quick stab to an unexpected spot?

My definition of sneaking:

Sinking into darkness while searching for shadows to continue to be unseen.

Why would you sink into a shadow in the middle of a fight?

OK now comes the argument that the rog can take out the problem mob and bring agro back to the group. Well each thing they add to the game shouldn't be limited to one playstyle. Maybe one player likes to stay with the group and not slow the group down? So now thats a person that cant use an Enhancement simply out of his/her own preference.

~kire

bobbryan2
04-15-2008, 05:46 PM
Why would you sink into a shadow in the middle of a fight?

Because you took 8 levels of assassin to gain Hiding in Plain Sight?

:)

Without that... most DMs probably wouldn't even let you try. :)

Snoggy
04-15-2008, 05:58 PM
You do realize Snoggy that if you keep this up his head will explode!!!:eek:

Heh. Probably. It's just ... damn if he didn't take the words right out of my brain. I too see that yes, it makes sense from a conceptual point of view for a skill like this to hinge on stealth. But, he points out so well how stealth doesn't fit into this game very well, because of the combat. And I don't want this game's combat to change. It's really one of the most exciting parts of DDO. The combat is intense. It's just, it's very fast-paced. And rogue abilities are, as he says, very slow paced. Very much take your time kind of actions. From detecting secret doors to traps to now ... this.

As a concept, yeah, there's a lot of merit to the change.

But in the way it functions and the way it's going to be executed ... at best it'll just be a klunky set of buttons to mash, making it a lot more extra twitch work ... at worst it'll be way too expensive and just a novelty that rogues can use when the party is sitting there resting up and the rogue says "want to see something cool?"

And that's because, like he says ... rogue stuff tends to be slow-moving, and the best parts of this game (like combat) tend to favor fast paced action.

I don't want the fast paced action to change. So I tend to favor a way to fix Way of the Assassin II without slowing it down so much. De-powering it is fine. But neutering it to the point where it doesn't mesh well with normal gameplay ... is too extreme.

There has to be a better compromise. And a few insightful folks in this thread have offered up interesting alternatives that I think could work as a compromise.

Cause let's face it ... the goal of everyone even remotely interested in the class or the enhancement is (at least I hope) to come up with a new toy that is fun for people to use and enjoy. It doesn't have to overpowered. It's just the change to me seems like it's gone from overpowered to practically unplayable. Depower it, but do something to keep it fun and playable.

:)

dragnmoon
04-15-2008, 06:21 PM
This whole bit about not being able to be noticed is complete nonsense.

And you can verify that how?.. i hope you are right.. But it reads either way..and a dev has not verified it yet..

Aspenor
04-15-2008, 06:37 PM
Sorry maybe we have different definitions of unnoticed. Mine:

The mob not concetrating on you, Not targeting you.

Yours (apparantly):

Not being seen.

Now to gain a sneak attack the mob cannot be targeted on you. Therefore they aren't focusing on you. I consider that if a mob isnt focused on you they are not going to noticebly block an attack to a vulnerable spot. They might move right before the attack and cause you to miss (IE a save). Now if a mob isnt targeted on you why you should you have to be sneaking in shadows to get a quick stab to an unexpected spot?

My definition of sneaking:

Sinking into darkness while searching for shadows to continue to be unseen.

Why would you sink into a shadow in the middle of a fight?

OK now comes the argument that the rog can take out the problem mob and bring agro back to the group. Well each thing they add to the game shouldn't be limited to one playstyle. Maybe one player likes to stay with the group and not slow the group down? So now thats a person that cant use an Enhancement simply out of his/her own preference.

~kire

Well it had appeared you believed that "unnoticed" meant just that, not being seen. That's not my thought, it is the exact one that I read from your last post.

Hvymetal
04-16-2008, 04:03 AM
Exactly the problem!

I could not state it any plainer than you have.

For the amount of action points required to purchase this, it becomes an over-priced novelty that is usable every now and then simply because the combat system is far too fast paced for it.

Agreed 100%

Cowdenicus
04-16-2008, 05:45 AM
Agreed 100%

right, we should just make it a 6 second clickie..... infact, why even make it a clickie.

What Turbine should do is just have some code to check to see if you have done an instakill in the last 6 seconds, if you havent had it go off, it should try to go off automatically.

While we are at it, why dont we have Turbine just put in a big "I WIN" button for rogues so that when ever they feel like it in a quest, they can just end the quest, get the xp, the chests all just loot themselves into your bag, and you can go collect your end rewards (only +5 wounding admantine rapiers of puncturing of course)

:rolleyes:

Angelus_dead
04-16-2008, 06:01 AM
People.

Don't forget that the DC is still higher than you can get from Finger of Death, and that it ignores spell resistance.

That means if the assassin rogue has adequate Hide and Move Silently, he can sneak into almost any encounter and start the battle by instakilling the monster of his choice, more reliably and for less spellpoints than a sorcerer would need.

Contrary to certain myths, there are places a sorcerer will not have the spellpoints to Finger everything he wants, not just Shroud (although that is one such place).

Contrary to another myth, it isn't horrible or lethal for the rogue to have all the aggro from the surviving monsters. That is particularly the case if he has the Diplomacy skill too, but regardless, he can block, dodge, or jump out of reach while his teammates safely approach the monsters who are standing there trying to range the rogue and hurting nobody. Using this attack as the signal to begin a combat will not at all be a bad way to play.

Of course, you won't need it when you have a 6-man party with multiple mages blasting everything without a care. Many (or most) players refuse to enter a dungeon until their group is packed with too much power for the encounters to give them a meaningful challenge. But when you're not overwhelming the whole quest, Death Attack can be useful.

This power will allow many rogues to solo battles they couldn't win otherwise.

Aesop
04-16-2008, 06:03 AM
right, we should just make it a 6 second clickie..... infact, why even make it a clickie.

What Turbine should do is just have some code to check to see if you have done an instakill in the last 6 seconds, if you havent had it go off, it should try to go off automatically.

While we are at it, why dont we have Turbine just put in a big "I WIN" button for rogues so that when ever they feel like it in a quest, they can just end the quest, get the xp, the chests all just loot themselves into your bag, and you can go collect your end rewards (only +5 wounding admantine rapiers of puncturing of course)

:rolleyes:

ya gotta admit that the change is superfulous and borderline useless Cow. I mean you must slip ninto Sneak Mode before making the attack.... come on that's just dumb. I have no problem with the increased timer mind you... actually I'd increase it to 30 sec myself and drop the silly multibutton combo


Aesop

Emili
04-16-2008, 06:56 AM
Because you took 8 levels of assassin to gain Hiding in Plain Sight?

:)

Without that... most DMs probably wouldn't even let you try. :)


This is the typical case and even the description behind sneak attack...

Hvymetal
04-16-2008, 07:00 AM
right, we should just make it a 6 second clickie..... infact, why even make it a clickie.

What Turbine should do is just have some code to check to see if you have done an instakill in the last 6 seconds, if you havent had it go off, it should try to go off automatically.

While we are at it, why dont we have Turbine just put in a big "I WIN" button for rogues so that when ever they feel like it in a quest, they can just end the quest, get the xp, the chests all just loot themselves into your bag, and you can go collect your end rewards (only +5 wounding admantine rapiers of puncturing of course)

:rolleyes:

Did I say that? I don't believe anywhere in any post have I stated that. However WOTAssasain II is not worth the points in my opinion for a highly situational ability, WOTM II doesn't look very promising and really the onlything interesting in WOTAcrobat II is immunity to knockdowns.....

And honestly the same could be said for certain persons arguments regarding some divine class........

JTsays
04-16-2008, 09:01 AM
Hmm, I didn't order weaksauce on that steak.

Sydril
04-16-2008, 09:12 AM
This nerf is terrible and has only given me assurance that I will be taking way of the acrobat II for a 10% increase in speed. That is of course unless they don't nerf that too. Maybe they will make all rogues move slower and you'll have to take the enhancement to maintain speed with everyone else. After seeing this nonsense anything is possible.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2008, 09:21 AM
People.

Don't forget that the DC is still higher than you can get from Finger of Death, and that it ignores spell resistance.

That means if the assassin rogue has adequate Hide and Move Silently, he can sneak into almost any encounter and start the battle by instakilling the monster of his choice, more reliably and for less spellpoints than a sorcerer would need.

Contrary to certain myths, there are places a sorcerer will not have the spellpoints to Finger everything he wants, not just Shroud (although that is one such place).

Contrary to another myth, it isn't horrible or lethal for the rogue to have all the aggro from the surviving monsters. That is particularly the case if he has the Diplomacy skill too, but regardless, he can block, dodge, or jump out of reach while his teammates safely approach the monsters who are standing there trying to range the rogue and hurting nobody. Using this attack as the signal to begin a combat will not at all be a bad way to play.

Of course, you won't need it when you have a 6-man party with multiple mages blasting everything without a care. Many (or most) players refuse to enter a dungeon until their group is packed with too much power for the encounters to give them a meaningful challenge. But when you're not overwhelming the whole quest, Death Attack can be useful.

This power will allow many rogues to solo battles they couldn't win otherwise.

Oh my god! When did you become reasonable? :)

Zenako
04-16-2008, 09:23 AM
People.

Don't forget that the DC is still higher than you can get from Finger of Death, and that it ignores spell resistance.

That means if the assassin rogue has adequate Hide and Move Silently, he can sneak into almost any encounter and start the battle by instakilling the monster of his choice, more reliably and for less spellpoints than a sorcerer would need.

Contrary to certain myths, there are places a sorcerer will not have the spellpoints to Finger everything he wants, not just Shroud (although that is one such place).

Contrary to another myth, it isn't horrible or lethal for the rogue to have all the aggro from the surviving monsters. That is particularly the case if he has the Diplomacy skill too, but regardless, he can block, dodge, or jump out of reach while his teammates safely approach the monsters who are standing there trying to range the rogue and hurting nobody. Using this attack as the signal to begin a combat will not at all be a bad way to play.

Of course, you won't need it when you have a 6-man party with multiple mages blasting everything without a care. Many (or most) players refuse to enter a dungeon until their group is packed with too much power for the encounters to give them a meaningful challenge. But when you're not overwhelming the whole quest, Death Attack can be useful.

This power will allow many rogues to solo battles they couldn't win otherwise.


thank you... I recall having more fun running something like Co6 with 3 people and having to work at it some, than the numerous full groups that just blow thru everything without a care cause they overwhelm the mobs. (not that Co6 would necessarily be a good place to use this ability, but there are times....certain flensers for example.)

Borror0
04-16-2008, 09:25 AM
Of course, you won't need it when you have a 6-man party with multiple mages blasting everything without a care. Many (or most) players refuse to enter a dungeon until their group is packed with too much power for the encounters to give them a meaningful challenge. But when you're not overwhelming the whole quest, Death Attack can be useful.

This power will allow many rogues to solo battles they couldn't win otherwise.

I see your point, but if that was their intent Death Attack shouldn't break.

Also, an invisible rogue should be able to use Death Attack all the time. No need to hide.

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 01:43 PM
I think that all it did was make it so that it'll be used primarily when soloing .. although once you do use it, you're not sneaking anymore and all his buddies are looking at you all funny .. and then things get messy.

Psh... forget about this assassin garbage. We want Hide in Plain Site. The Mobs in freekin Cerulian Hills can do it... why can't our lvl 16 rogues?

Zenako
04-16-2008, 02:01 PM
Psh... forget about this assassin garbage. We want Hide in Plain Site. The Mobs in freekin Cerulian Hills can do it... why can't our lvl 16 rogues?

Any sort of good spot skill and you can see them without much trouble thou....

Accelerando
04-16-2008, 02:41 PM
Any sort of good spot skill and you can see them without much trouble thou....

And any sort of good hide skill and your enemies would never see you... as it is now.

Coldin
04-16-2008, 02:47 PM
But how then that even with a super awesome spot skill that bugbears can still disappear from sight at will?

Kire
04-16-2008, 02:53 PM
Eh i think that as long as the mob isnt focusing on you you shoudl be able to make an attempt to insta kill. Again thsi would work for any playstyle. Increase the timer to 30 seconds and the rog would get one use of it per major encounter (5 or more mobs). I know ide use it as an opening attack then go back to bluffing and IF'ing mobs to get sneak damage.

~Kire

Cowdenicus
04-16-2008, 03:30 PM
ya gotta admit that the change is superfulous and borderline useless Cow. I mean you must slip ninto Sneak Mode before making the attack.... come on that's just dumb. I have no problem with the increased timer mind you... actually I'd increase it to 30 sec myself and drop the silly multibutton combo


Aesop

now see this is something I could get behind.

krud
04-16-2008, 06:49 PM
Eh i think that as long as the mob isnt focusing on you you shoudl be able to make an attempt to insta kill. Again thsi would work for any playstyle. Increase the timer to 30 seconds and the rog would get one use of it per major encounter (5 or more mobs). I know ide use it as an opening attack then go back to bluffing and IF'ing mobs to get sneak damage.

~Kire

This is one of the solutions I prefer. The other is to keep the current mechanics, but make a succesful death attack not break sneak mode (as well as granting max attack bonus, same as trip/stunning blow/smite evil). It all depends on how you want to use DA, but making it the equivalent of FoD is not gonna happen. The first one offers the least complexity, but gives less combat effectiveness. The latter, while a little more cumbersome to execute, is potentially much more deadly. A rogue could pick off a roomful of mobs and go unnoticed. A slower but extremely effective approach, especially for the solo rogue.

Kire
04-16-2008, 07:42 PM
This is one of the solutions I prefer. The other is to keep the current mechanics, but make a succesful death attack not break sneak mode (as well as granting max attack bonus, same as trip/stunning blow/smite evil). It all depends on how you want to use DA, but making it the equivalent of FoD is not gonna happen. The first one offers the least complexity, but gives less combat effectiveness. The latter, while a little more cumbersome to execute, is potentially much more deadly. A rogue could pick off a roomful of mobs and go unnoticed. A slower but extremely effective approach, especially for the solo rogue.

Yep.

Lol.

~Kire

samagee
04-18-2008, 10:43 AM
I do.... rarely use it...In fact i have not put points into MS and Hide in a few levels...

The problem I can see..if it requires you to be not only in stealth mode...and Not noticed..*Successful stealth*.. Then it becomes useless for me... Not many groups will wait for me to stealth on something to try to kill it in one shot..

If it is that case..it will be useful for Solo Rogues..and Permadeath Guilds..

There are times where I will use my rogue skills wether or not they want to wait.

bandyman1
04-18-2008, 11:07 AM
There are times where I will use my rogue skills wether or not they want to wait.

And that's all cool.....except for that whole the group being 7-8 rooms ahead of you and everything being dead long before you get there thing.

Garth_of_Sarlona
04-18-2008, 11:34 AM
how about make a new boss type between orange and red that can't be FoDed or PKed but can be assassinated. Make it have enough hit points and attack bonus that meleeing it down would be too much like hard work.

that would encourage people to let the rogue go first and assassinate it :)

...but it would be a totally artificial solution to the problem

Garth

Zenako
04-18-2008, 11:51 AM
how about make a new boss type between orange and red that can't be FoDed or PKed but can be assassinated. Make it have enough hit points and attack bonus that meleeing it down would be too much like hard work.

that would encourage people to let the rogue go first and assassinate it :)

...but it would be a totally artificial solution to the problem

Garth

You mean like a lot of the mobs in Running with Devils???? The ones with HUGE SR and a bazillion HP...and no red names....

Yaga_Nub
04-18-2008, 12:10 PM
how about make a new boss type between orange and red that can't be FoDed or PKed but can be assassinated. Make it have enough hit points and attack bonus that meleeing it down would be too much like hard work.

that would encourage people to let the rogue go first and assassinate it :)

...but it would be a totally artificial solution to the problem

Garth

I think that bosses should be able to be assassinated. That was the whole idea behind the concept of an assassin the first place. Get to a high-value target and put it down with minimum effort and risk.

dameron
04-18-2008, 01:52 PM
I think that bosses should be able to be assassinated. That was the whole idea behind the concept of an assassin the first place. Get to a high-value target and put it down with minimum effort and risk.

Exactly, I think a certain departed president would have loved to have been:

John F. Kennedy

bobbryan2
04-18-2008, 02:03 PM
You mean like a lot of the mobs in Running with Devils???? The ones with HUGE SR and a bazillion HP...and no red names....

You mean the ones that are not very hard to finger or banish due to low saves? The SR check is the hard one.

CrimsonEagle
04-18-2008, 02:34 PM
Even IF they kept this ability the way it was originally going to be implemented, at most, in any given battle, in your standard run, (not even zerging), a rogue would be lucky to get off one shot, and chances are the monster would be dead before he got off a swing. (finger, banishment, pk, charm, any number of things really.)

Rarely do individual encounters last much more than 20 seconds. That would mean even if the timer did stay at 10 seconds, with only the sneak attack requirement, at most, and only if lucky, a rogue could get off 2, if said mob's were not already dead before he even noticed they were there.

If you are playing in a role playing guild, this may work...somewhat. In a normal group, it will be pretty much useless.

I say it will only be somewhat useful in a role playing group because the fact that you break stealth on a successful attack could very well mean your death.

A more logical solution, (for an assassin), would be to kill a mob but not break stealth, though alert others that something is going on. Any subsequent attack increases your chance of getting spotted.

This went from a marginally useful ability to a useless ability.

Now granted, this is only my opinion but I think it the end it will be the correct assumption. And if not...well, I've been wrong before.

I really do hope it will be as useful as some think it will be. I just do not see it.

Crimson.

krud
04-18-2008, 04:03 PM
Even IF they kept this ability the way it was originally going to be implemented, at most, in any given battle, in your standard run, (not even zerging), a rogue would be lucky to get off one shot, and chances are the monster would be dead before he got off a swing. (finger, banishment, pk, charm, any number of things really.)


you make it sound as if melee is completely useless, not only for rogues, but everyone else swinging steel.

The way it was originally worded would have allowed a death attack every 10 seconds with the only requirement being that it is a sneak attack. It would have been about as useful as stunning blow (which when succesful is pretty much an automatic kill). My ftr/rog is able to attempt more than one SB in most encounters (SB also has a 10sec timer), and sneak attacks are not hard to generate at all. Not super overpowering for DDO, but it doesn't seem to fit the description of an assassin's death attack.


A more logical solution, (for an assassin), would be to kill a mob but not break stealth, though alert others that something is going on. Any subsequent attack increases your chance of getting spotted.
not a bad idea at all

CrimsonEagle
04-18-2008, 04:22 PM
you make it sound as if melee is completely useless, not only for rogues, but everyone else swinging steel.

The way it was originally worded would have allowed a death attack every 10 seconds with the only requirement being that it is a sneak attack. It would have been about as useful as stunning blow (which when succesful is pretty much an automatic kill. My ftr/rog is able to attempt more than one SB in most encounters (SB also has a 10sec timer), and sneak attacks are not hard to generate at all. Not super overpowering for DDO, but it doesn't seem to fit the description of an assassin's death attack.



Naw, Not meant to make it sound as if melee is completely useless. When I play my caster, I target those who can do the most harm to the party. Mostly caster's, and sometimes archers, (which can be a pain). Most of the other mobs are just fodder, and are easily taken down by the fighters, and these mobs are usually obliterated by the blender.

I think the way many are seeing this, is the rogue will run in and target all the oppositions most dangerous mobs, but by the time they get there, chances are those who are most dangerous will already be taken out of the picture. What will that leave? Just the trash mobs.

I don't know.....I just think some were vastly overestimating the power of this enhancement. Considering some of the enhancements/weapons/spells that are out there, as originally planned it would have been a mere bauble to quell the masses.

As I said. I do hope I'm wrong. The class does need some love. Only time will tell though.

krud
04-18-2008, 05:53 PM
A more logical solution, (for an assassin), would be to kill a mob but not break stealth, though alert others that something is going on. Any subsequent attack increases your chance of getting spotted.

I know that Improved feint works somewhat like this, each feint has a lower chance of succeeding, and if you get a failed bluff/feint, each subsequent bluff/feint is almost impossible to land. Doesn't seem that it would be too hard to adapt the same mechanism for death attack and stealth.

CrimsonEagle
04-18-2008, 06:28 PM
I know that Improved feint works somewhat like this, each feint has a lower chance of succeeding, and if you get a failed bluff/feint, each subsequent bluff/feint is almost impossible to land. Doesn't seem that it would be too hard to adapt the same mechanism for death attack and stealth.

Lol, just read back through and seen that you said something very similar:).

This would fit in nicely with the Assassin role.

I have felt for quite some time that stealth is not right...(since the fix).

A very stealthy character should be able to do many things, such as open doors, chests, jump, among other things such as kill. Instead of outright breaking stealth, it should just increase the chance of being spotted.

"The stealthy assassin enters the room unnoticed. Carefully he picks out his target and quickly makes his way over, unseen, unheard, unknown. It is as if he did not exist.

The leader falls quickly and silently to the blade, crumpling to the floor in a stinking heap. One of his comrades notice his leaders fall, about sound an alarm, getting up quickly, looking wildly, it is too late for him, he has also met his fate to the blade of stealth.

Now pandemonium breaks out. The remaining crew knows that there is death amongst them, but where? Vigilantly they watch, searching wildly before more death falls upon them.

The assassin knows that only one more could he get, but his cover would be blown. There would still be too many remaining for him to fight, so wisely he instead chooses to exit silently, back into the night, sounds of whispers following. Be afraid of the Night....be afraid of the Dark.....be afraid of the Assassin...."

Although probably a poor example, this is what will never allow DDO to be even remotely like D&D. As poor as my imagination is, that is what D&D is all about, and that is nearly impossible to reproduce because it is not YOUR imagination that is creating it.

I know. A bit off topic. My apoligies.

Crimson.

Stealthbr
04-18-2008, 10:42 PM
I dont consider the changes to the death attack very well planned out. Firstly, no one will want to keep getting in and out of sneak mode all the time. It gets annoying very quickly... Also, stealth shouldnt break because of certain actions such as tumbling, jumping, open doors, etc. If they could change the death attack to not break stealth, that would be a great way to make it more appealing while not overpowering it. Also, some folks will consider spending even more Action Points because of this enhancement to grab the Faster Sneaking line so that the rest of the party doesn't have to wait for the sneaking rogue. If the death attack does break stealth, I dont see how it would be very useful when soloing.

Accelerando
04-19-2008, 04:06 AM
Exactly, I think a certain departed president would have loved to have been:

John F. Kennedy

LMAO how did everyone miss that. Fantastic, although maybe it should have been

John F. Kennedy

Aspenor
04-22-2008, 08:57 AM
/casts reanimate thread

So I was mulling over this ability, since people have been complaining about the change a little.

I was wondering, if the death strike ability was ALSO coupled with a paralyzing strike (which functions like hold monster, not a paralyzer weapon) that worked off a separate timer from the death attack, would this be an appealing balance for the sneaking prereq mechanic??

Essentially this would offer the assassin 2 options for a devastating attack from the shadows.

Input?

Illuminati
04-22-2008, 08:59 AM
How about if mob makes save, they still take a double sneak attack dmg or something?

Cowdenicus
04-22-2008, 09:00 AM
How about if mob makes save, they still take a double sneak attack dmg or something?

There is bonus sneak attack damage on a save with this already.

Aspenor
04-22-2008, 09:00 AM
How about if mob makes save, they still take a double sneak attack dmg or something?

This mechanic is already in. On a successful fortitude save by the targetted monster, there is 10d6 added damage from the attack.

Illuminati
04-22-2008, 09:02 AM
Doh! reading is fundamental...

Cowdenicus
04-22-2008, 09:03 AM
This mechanic is already in. On a successful fortitude save by the targetted monster, there is 10d6 added damage from the attack.

I beat Asp to it.... WOOT

Aspenor
04-22-2008, 09:04 AM
I beat Asp to it.... WOOT

Oh yeah? Well try this on for size...the 10d6 damage is automatically applied to the attack against red and purple named's so that the rogue as a recharging massive DPS strike vs these targets ;)

Cowdenicus
04-22-2008, 09:13 AM
Oh yeah? Well try this on for size...the 10d6 damage is automatically applied to the attack against red and purple named's so that the rogue as a recharging massive DPS strike vs these targets ;)

That was assumed since we all know all purple names have deathward....