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View Full Version : Time to relook at the faith lines for Clerics and Paladins



Cowdenicus
04-10-2008, 11:41 PM
You know I have always compared the faith lines that Clerics and Pallies get against the new enhancements for rogues, and the older ones for rogues, bards and rangers.

After seriously looking at them, I cannot help the feeling that Clerics and Pallies are really not getting the most that they could get for their AP for these Faith lines. Let us take a look at some of the bonuses rangers, rogues and bards get.

Ranger Tempest I:
Benefit: Grants a stacking bonus to dual wield attack speed and a +2 bonus to armor class while dual wielding.

Ranger Deepwood Sniper I:
Benefit: Grants a +1 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. Also grants the ability to take an aimed 'sniper shot' with a +4 bonus to hit, +1 critical threat range, and +1 critical threat multiplier.

Ranger/Elven Arcane Archer I:
Benefit: Grants 20 spell points and the ability to conjure +1 returning arcane arrows at will. Also grants the ability to make a ranged attack as a True Strike with a +20 bonus to hit.

Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.

Rogue Way of the Assassin II
Benefit: Grants an additional +4 bonus to Sneak Attack Damage, +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. Even on a successful save, the target takes increased sneak attack damage. (10 second cool-down, no times per day limit, can only be used when sneak attacking.)

Spellsinger
Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Virtuoso
Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken.

Warchanter
Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."

Way of the Mechanic I
Benefit: +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Spot, and Search skills. Activate to apply a repair over time effect to a targetted friendly Warforged or Construct. Consumes one use of Rogue Skill Boost for the day.

Way of the Thief-Acrobat I
Benefit: +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge per day. Activate to gain a +10 bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble, a 25% Enhancement bonus to movement speed, and a +4 bonus to Dexterity for 20 seconds. Consumes one use of Rogue Haste Boost for the day.

Way of the Assassin I
Benefit: +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves versus Poison. Activate to gain a +2 bonus to hit when making sneak attacks, a +20 bonus to confirm critical hits, and a 25% chance to apply a mind affecting poison with each sneak attack, for 20 seconds. Consumes one use of Rogue Damage Boost for the day.

While some of these are only seriously powerful, some of them are jaw droppingly powerful. An every 10 second death shot? a 10% melee alacrity boost, poisons, +10's to multiple skills, bonus speed, huge buffs from the bards, not to mention a bonus 100 spell points and a rare bonus to UMD, immunities, bonuses to crit range and multipliers, this is powerful stuff.

Now let us compare these to the faith lines....

Now first off you can get a +1 to hit with a single weapon, of which there are 5 choices, and for clerics you can use a turn attempt to grant proficiency with that one single weapon. OK now above and beyond that crumb, clerics and pallies can at the cost of 4 AP get one of the following:

Silver Flame Exorcism
You are a devoted follower of the Silver Flame, and your faith has been rewarded. Activate this ability to attempt to exorcise an extraplanar creature, which is entirely consumed in holy fire on a failed Will save or savagely burned by the light of the Silver Flame partially resisted by a Fortitude save. Cooldown: 10 minutes.

Unyielding Sovereignty
You are a devoted follower of the Sovereign Host, and your faith has been rewarded. Activate this ability to fully heal hit point damage done to yourself or a targetted ally, remove ability damage, and the conditions blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, and poisoned. Cooldown: 10 minutes.

Undying Call
You are a devoted follower of the Undying Court, and your faith has been rewarded. Activate this ability to lead a dead ally's spirit back to this world, acting as a True Resurrection on high elven spirits or a Raise Dead for others. Cooldown: 10 minutes.

Bladesworn Transformation
You are a devoted follower of the Lord of Blades, and your faith has been rewarded. Activate this ability to become a juggernaut of destruction for 60 seconds. (You have a +4 profane bonus to Strength, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +4 profane bonus on damage rolls, and proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. You have lost your spellcasting ability. You have immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks, but cannot be healed by healing spells.) Cooldown: 10 minutes.

Vulkoor's Avatar
You are a devoted follower of Vulkoor the Hunter, and your faith has been rewarded. Activate this ability to ask Vulkoor to send one of his servants to destroy your enemies. (Summons a Drow Scorpion to crush your enemies.) Cooldown: 10 minutes.

Now while the Bladesworn transformation is somewhat appealing, the cooldown means you are only ok in spurts. The rest when compared to the other enhancements for rogues bards and rangers are just lacking. Almost all of them are lacking due to the recast timer being 10 minutes. I mean a rogue can do a death shot every 10 seconds, but a cleric has to wait 10 minutes to use their heal ability from Unyielding Soverignity. Come on Turbine. We can do better than this.

There is no way that anybody with a straight face can compare tempest with Vulkoors avatar and be like, ooo those are close, or way of the assassin 2 with Bladesworn Transformation and find them comparable.

It is high time for the faith lines to be reevaluated, and have their power increased and timers shortened.

MrCow
04-10-2008, 11:50 PM
Well, in terms of power, I will agree that the faith lines have a few things that put them under the other class specialties. However, its not completely fair to do an AP-for-usefulness analysis when compared to the bardic and ranger specialties as most of them have feat requirements (and some of them are quite feat intensive). The fact that they require feats allows the overall power in the enhancements be higher.

If you are going to compare the faith enhancements with class specialty enhancements then you may be best to keep the comparison to the rogue specialties and bard Virtuoso. Even then, the lack of any requirements (other than race for some of them) almost doesn't make it fair to compare the faith enhancements with any of the specialties. The bonus of a faith enhancement is that it is not bound to any of the other enhancements (a good example being the Rogue Way of the Assassin II).

Cowdenicus
04-10-2008, 11:51 PM
Well, in terms of power, I will agree that the faith lines have a few things that put them under the other class specialties. However, its not completely fair to do an AP-for-usefulness analysis when compared to the bardic and ranger specialties as most of them have feat requirements (and some of them are quite feat intensive). The fact that they require feats allows the overall power in the enhancements be higher.

If you are going to compare the faith enhancements with class specialty enhancements then you may be best to keep the comparison to the rogue specialties and bard Virtuoso.

I do not agree. Clerics are much more feat intense than rogues or bards or rangers, heck especially rangers. Rangers get what 14 free feats in this game? The bonus of a faith enhancement is just that bone us. :D But Seriously, cost for AP is a valid comparison.

That would be like saying well dont count critical rage for barbarians when talking about dps, because it requires rage, and no other class gets rage.

ThrasherGT
04-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Paladins? Yes, they need some serious "love", but I tend to disagree with You as far as clerics are concerned. Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and the faith lines are there to add some "flavor" and individuality to cleric builds. When You consider that clerics can fight, heal, cast offensive and defensive spells, restore SP to other casters, etc., what else do We really need? Would I like to see clerics get a little more SP? Yes, but I can live with it the way it is now.......

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 12:07 AM
Paladins? Yes, they need some serious "love", but I tend to disagree with You as far as clerics are concerned. Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and the faith lines are there to add some "flavor" and individuality to cleric builds. When You consider that clerics can fight, heal, cast offensive and defensive spells, restore SP to other casters, etc., what else do We really need? Would I like to see clerics get a little more SP? Yes, but I can live with it the way it is now.......

No Clerics are one of the most requested classes in the game.

Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).

Using your logic Pallies can melee better than clerics and clerics can cast better than pallies. Seems like they would be even. So in fact with your logic, Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Since we know that Pallies are not one of the most powerful classes in the game....... it would seem your entire premise does not add up.

esoitl
04-11-2008, 12:18 AM
be real here Cow

you are trying to compare Class Specialties to Enhancement Lines and even go so far as to comparing Melee to Casting
the only thing that has to be rethought is the validity of this post

these ARE NOT the same things as class specialties as is the Tempest, Assassin, Warchanter and the others
these are FAITH LINES

they have racial requirements that need to be met, just like the Dragon Marks do and therefore are abilities based upon a specific race, not upon a Specialized Cleric or Paladin
what's next, comporing a DM'ed build to a Tempest build??

Falco_Easts
04-11-2008, 12:19 AM
Paladins? Yes, they need some serious "love", but I tend to disagree with You as far as clerics are concerned. Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and the faith lines are there to add some "flavor" and individuality to cleric builds. When You consider that clerics can fight, heal, cast offensive and defensive spells, restore SP to other casters, etc., what else do We really need? Would I like to see clerics get a little more SP? Yes, but I can live with it the way it is now.......

I agree that clerics can be powerful but I think the enhancements could be improved. Not so much for the power as the flavour. Personally, I think every Cleric/Pali should have to choose one faith enhancement before they can level to 2 and then get other enhancements to improve on that. If they are there for flavour then they really need improvemnt. If you are playing with a faith based class you should have no doubts to where there faith lies. As it is, you would not know which of these enhancements the cleric had in most cases.

i.e
Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement to cut the cooldown, enhancement to increase the STR bonus etc... Until at level 20 your faith enhancement allows you to turn into a whirling montster DPS machine that is pure beaty to watch with a Greatsword.

Vulkoor's Avatar
Enhancements to cut the summons cooldown, enhancements to increase the CR of the Avator. At level 20 your summoned Drow Scorp should be one of Vulkoor's right hand men and be a real show of your gods trust in you.

esoitl
04-11-2008, 12:31 AM
I agree that clerics can be powerful but I think the enhancements could be improved. Not so much for the power as the flavour. Personally, I think every Cleric/Pali should have to choose one faith enhancement before they can level to 2 and then get other enhancements to improve on that. If they are there for flavour then they really need improvemnt. If you are playing with a faith based class you should have no doubts to where there faith lies. As it is, you would not know which of these enhancements the cleric had in most cases.

i.e
Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement to cut the cooldown, enhancement to increase the STR bonus etc... Until at level 20 your faith enhancement allows you to turn into a whirling montster DPS machine that is pure beaty to watch with a Greatsword.

Vulkoor's Avatar
Enhancements to cut the summons cooldown, enhancements to increase the CR of the Avator. At level 20 your summoned Drow Scorp should be one of Vulkoor's right hand men and be a real show of your gods trust in you.


then you're basically creating a DDO modified domain system
the problem here is that these lines a race restricted and at times you can get only one or two of them... i have two clerics and no line i'd actually wish to take

forced AP spending is not what the majority of Clerics(or any class) would like to see unless it's something nice and shiny
now, if you were to actually find a balanced way to introduce domains to the class this would be nice - must be taken on creation and can't be changed

to keep Clerics from overwhelming maybe put an AP unlock on the domain spells or something....
some more or less get into RP and such though which would slightly alter the flavour

Zuldar
04-11-2008, 12:36 AM
to keep Clerics from overwhelming maybe put an AP unlock on the domain spells or something....some more or less get into RP and such though which would slightly alter the flavour

I disagree with this for the simple reason that's domains are a class feature. After all fighters don't have to spend ap to get their bonus feats.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 12:44 AM
be real here Cow

you are trying to compare Class Specialties to Enhancement Lines and even go so far as to comparing Melee to Casting
the only thing that has to be rethought is the validity of this post

these ARE NOT the same things as class specialties as is the Tempest, Assassin, Warchanter and the others
these are FAITH LINES

they have racial requirements that need to be met, just like the Dragon Marks do and therefore are abilities based upon a specific race, not upon a Specialized Cleric or Paladin
what's next, comporing a DM'ed build to a Tempest build??

So you advocate the addition of class specialties as well as the faith lines for Clerics and Paladins?

What is not the same? All of the Class specialties, require AP to be spent, and minimum levels in a class save Arcane Archer which is open to all elves. The Faith lines do too.

In fact, I would say they are identical.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 12:45 AM
I disagree with this for the simple reason that's domains are a class feature. After all fighters don't have to spend ap to get their bonus feats.

Exactly.

FluffyCalico
04-11-2008, 12:50 AM
I see one major problem with adding cleric domains. Since they did not exist at character generation people did not choose their alignment based on them. Would all clerics get a 1 time alignment redo? Or would you condem 90% of clerics to reroll?

Falco_Easts
04-11-2008, 12:51 AM
then you're basically creating a DDO modified domain system
Yep.


the problem here is that these lines a race restricted and at times you can get only one or two of them... i have two clerics and no line i'd actually wish to take
Not up on the Ebarron setting but from what I read, some fo the faiths are race restricted. Lord fo the Blades is a WF faith for example. I may be wrong. To cover all aspects, leave race restricted fath there but you may "buy into it" from another race using AP's but it will cost you.


forced AP spending is not what the majority of Clerics(or any class) would like to see unless it's something nice and shiny now, if you were to actually find a balanced way to introduce domains to the class this would be nice - must be taken on creation and can't be changed
Yep, let the first tier be free and the basic bonuses of each faith for free but open up other opportunities by AP use.


to keep Clerics from overwhelming maybe put an AP unlock on the domain spells or something....
some more or less get into RP and such though which would slightly alter the flavour
As above

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 12:54 AM
I see one major problem with adding cleric domains. Since they did not exist at character generation people did not choose their alignment based on them. Would all clerics get a 1 time alignment redo? Or would you condem 90% of clerics to reroll?

Hmmmm how they will get the monks to level, I joke, but hmmmm.

This though is not about domains, this is about faith lines and their complete lack of power as compared to other class specialties.

10 sec kill shot timer does not equate to a 10 minute summon or heal.

esoitl
04-11-2008, 01:17 AM
I disagree with this for the simple reason that's domains are a class feature. After all fighters don't have to spend ap to get their bonus feats.

i admit it's fairly foolish but you have to admit if domains are introduced it will be quite unbalancing, unless of course they add them in as clickies in effect..... it has been mentioned though that there exists alignment restrictions which would cause major headaches to those existing clerics



So you advocate the addition of class specialties as well as the faith lines for Clerics and Paladins?

What is not the same? All of the Class specialties, require AP to be spent, and minimum levels in a class save Arcane Archer which is open to all elves. The Faith lines do too.

In fact, I would say they are identical.
look at the titles of the enhancements, most are labelled as a class specialty whereas the cleric and paladin lines are titled tenet of faith
this would make it a religious based ABILITY granted to clerics and paladins due to their highly religious nature and involvement

by no means does this equal a class specialty
sure the abilties aren't great but stop comparing apples to oranges if you want to make a point

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 01:23 AM
look at the titles of the enhancements, most are labelled as a class specialty whereas the cleric and paladin lines are titled tenet of faith
this would make it a religious based ABILITY granted to clerics and paladins due to their highly religious nature and involvement

by no means does this equal a class specialty
sure the abilties aren't great but stop comparing apples to oranges if you want to make a point

Until they add in Cleric and Paladin Class Specialties, or give even a hint that they will, it has to be assumed that these are it and as such, are greatly underpowered comparatively.

You have no idea what the Developers are planning metagame wise for clerics or paladins.

A religious based ability based off of: (wait for it) CLASS.

Also the cleric and pally faith lines came out first...... think about it maybe that is why the naming difference.

Ildaron
04-11-2008, 01:29 AM
I have been thinking the same thing as well. For good or ill I like pointy eared freaks, so my Drow Cleric took the Vuklour Line, and my Elf Paladin (rerolled my elf Cleric to make it a Pallie) took the Undying Court. I always knew the enhancement was not all that powerful (weakened even further when Drow stopped being considered elves so they would not recieve a True Raise from the enhancment, but a normal raise dead) but Undying Court is made even weaker seeing that soon all Paladins and not just those who are elves will be able to spend AP to raise the dead. It is my hope that the devs will look into this and modify/update the Undying Court enhancment. The only thing my elf Pallie will have going for her pretty soon is the fact she can displace herself dor damage mitigation.

esoitl
04-11-2008, 01:32 AM
Until they add in Cleric and Paladin Class Specialties, or give even a hint that they will, it has to be assumed that these are it and as such, are greatly underpowered comparatively.

You have no idea what the Developers are planning metagame wise for clerics or paladins.

A religious based ability based off of: (wait for it) CLASS.

Also the cleric and pally faith lines came out first...... think about it maybe that is why the naming difference.

you have no idea either - whats to say they aren't hashing out ideas for class specialties??
there are plenty they could introduce Paladin wise although it is difficult to think of how the Cleric might be handled(maybe a battle specialty, a turning, and a healing??)

how is it that you can't grasp the idea that class specs and these faith lines are different entities??
also, since the Cleric line and the Paladin line are the same how can you even call them class specs??

again - apples to oranges

Snoggy
04-11-2008, 02:29 AM
Here's a curveball for you ...

How do the cleric faith enhancements stack up against the Figher class' prestige enhancements?

Vormaerin
04-11-2008, 03:39 AM
The only thing my elf Pallie will have going for her pretty soon is the fact she can displace herself dor damage mitigation.

Elves aren't required to take Undying Court (though that is the best RP option for Aerenal elves). So you can also chose Silver Flame (meh) or Sovereign Host (quite good).

esoitl
04-11-2008, 05:00 AM
Here's a curveball for you ...

How do the cleric faith enhancements stack up against the Figher class' prestige enhancements?

i think the original point of this thread was that they don't stack up to anything really
they aren't terrible lines to choose but at the same time they really are short of anything spectacular..... in a way that's how they are meant to be though

look at Dragon Marks..... most characters plum don't use them and thats a testament to their overall power
it's a huge investment to take them to a point where they become really useful but then again it all depends on the build

the same issue applies here, they aren't great but some builds can get use out of them - they are a flavour thing which is pretty cool

while i don't ever invest in them it's nice to see Turbine putting the faith aspect into Paladins and Clerics - far from domains but cool nonetheless

esoitl
04-11-2008, 05:04 AM
I have been thinking the same thing as well. For good or ill I like pointy eared freaks, so my Drow Cleric took the Vuklour Line, and my Elf Paladin (rerolled my elf Cleric to make it a Pallie) took the Undying Court. I always knew the enhancement was not all that powerful (weakened even further when Drow stopped being considered elves so they would not recieve a True Raise from the enhancment, but a normal raise dead) but Undying Court is made even weaker seeing that soon all Paladins and not just those who are elves will be able to spend AP to raise the dead. It is my hope that the devs will look into this and modify/update the Undying Court enhancment. The only thing my elf Pallie will have going for her pretty soon is the fact she can displace herself dor damage mitigation.

kind of funny with all the *****ing about getting Paladin love we now have people complaining about getting it now that it is set to arrive
as posted before, you don't HAVE to take a faith line..... it's your call

while i don't know the specifics of the PEnhancment the faith line is nice as it's useable at level 6 - 3 levels before a cleric would normally be able to res someone
i'd assume the PEnhancement would be sometime after this so you still get some use out of it until you hit that benchmark

Yaga_Nub
04-11-2008, 07:04 AM
I think clerics are to powerful and I am requesting the devs cut all clerics sp in half, remove all devotion items and make the cooldown on heal scrolls three times longer.

MysticTheurge
04-11-2008, 07:17 AM
No Clerics are one of the most requested classes in the game.

Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).

Using your logic Pallies can melee better than clerics and clerics can cast better than pallies. Seems like they would be even. So in fact with your logic, Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Since we know that Pallies are not one of the most powerful classes in the game....... it would seem your entire premise does not add up.

You're funny.

Aeneas
04-11-2008, 07:30 AM
I'm ok with making the faith lines more powerful - but each one costs 10 AP and you have to take a worthless feat to get them.

For instance, in order to take follower of the vulkoor, you need cleric concentration II, Cleric Diplomacy II, and Snake Blood Feat. Then you can spend 4 AP's to get the first tier enhancement which will give +1 to hit and damage with ss's, the use of turn undead to grant ss proficiency to someone, and an aura which gives a buff or mob debuff that would correspond with Vulkoor's tenets. (whatever that might be). Of course the second tier would require you to spend 6-8 more AP's on worthless junk you don't want, followed by 4-6 more AP's for the second tier enhancement itself.

Angelus_dead
04-11-2008, 07:44 AM
I think clerics are to powerful and I am requesting the devs cut all clerics sp in half, remove all devotion items and make the cooldown on heal scrolls three times longer.
Increasing the cooldown on heal scrolls would add more power to the cleric class. It would reduce the ability of rogues and bards to operate heal scrolls, increasing the need for a cleric to cast that spell directly.

llevenbaxx
04-11-2008, 07:57 AM
Not to mention with Bladesworn you cant recieve Divine type Healing(what there are no WF clerics who follow the Lord of Blades???:)) for the duration of it(other than LOH) making it a no-no to use during boss fights(when you most need it/would likily use it). Did the other classes recieve these type of drawbacks on their "benefits"?...and this is prolly the best of them imho. Though I do like casting the LOB's blessing on characters and waiting for the "what the **** is that".:)

Aside from the Rez one I dont really think the others are worth mentioning(they rank up there with Merfolks Blessing imho:)).

Far as clerics go I geuss I wouldnt mind seeing some the domains make an appearence(maybe in clickie form). Nothing to crazy though as clerics can really be made to do almost anything at this point in the game. Maybe a sacred(stacking) bonus to str for a limited duration if thats ur thing or a limited duration clickie that automatically maximizes you healing at no additional sp cost for a certain duration. Or a limited duration shadowwalk or 1/rest DD for travel domain. While clerics are very capable, groups are relying on them more than ever imo. As the game is continually fleshed out its not really difficult to see these things being added. More odds and ends things would be cool imo not neccesarily min/maxer must haves...

ThrasherGT
04-11-2008, 09:24 AM
I think clerics are to powerful and I am requesting the devs cut all clerics sp in half, remove all devotion items and make the cooldown on heal scrolls three times longer.

While we're at it, let's give all fighters 1500 HP, the ability to use heal scrolls with no cool down, and speed up their attacks to 5x what they currently are.........Oh, and let's just give all classes every ability every other class has..........oooh, oooh, and while we're at it, let's give every race every other race's abilities, and no more restictions on weapons, or wands, or scrolls, and no more level restrictions on equipment...........There! I just fixed the whole game!

Ildaron
04-11-2008, 09:34 AM
kind of funny with all the *****ing about getting Paladin love we now have people complaining about getting it now that it is set to arrive
as posted before, you don't HAVE to take a faith line..... it's your call

while i don't know the specifics of the PEnhancment the faith line is nice as it's useable at level 6 - 3 levels before a cleric would normally be able to res someone
i'd assume the PEnhancement would be sometime after this so you still get some use out of it until you hit that benchmark

People don't have to brush change their underwear every day either.... it doesn't make poor hygine a good idea however. :)

Current the Undying Court part 1 is a level 1 Enhancment for Paladin (That +1 to using a Scimitar as well as making other clasess being able to be proficient with using a Scimitar with one us of Turn Undead of Course Paladins don't have Turn Undead at level 1 so it is pretty worthless until level 4 when Paladins get Turn Undead.) The next line Paladins get at level 9. (This is the True Raise for elves (Nobody really plays elves any more... I wonder why?) which no longer includes Drows (Drows aren't elf enough anymore for it to work on. Awhile back the Devs changed the enhancement so the True Raise would not affect Drow it used to.) Its nice, but any Paladin will be able to use a Lay on Hand to raise a dead from the dead at full health. Sure I don't have to take the undying Court in ehancement, but that is my point, pointing out the two other faith based enhacement which are considered nice is my point.

There is less reason of playing an elf Paladin, our Faith Based enhancement line was given to everyone.

Laith
04-11-2008, 09:37 AM
I'm ok with making the faith lines more powerful - but each one costs 10 AP and you have to take a worthless feat to get them.exactly.

specialities cost WAY more than the faith lines, because more often than not they ask you to waste several AP/feats in prereqs.

faithlines have no prereqs, even at tier2.
the power of specialties and faith lines might not be comparable... but neither is the cost.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 10:46 AM
exactly.

specialities cost WAY more than the faith lines, because more often than not they ask you to waste several AP/feats in prereqs.

faithlines have no prereqs, even at tier2.
the power of specialties and faith lines might not be comparable... but neither is the cost.

:rolleyes:

The cost is identical, the prereqs are not.

Yaga_Nub
04-11-2008, 11:11 AM
While we're at it, let's give all fighters 1500 HP, the ability to use heal scrolls with no cool down, and speed up their attacks to 5x what they currently are.........Oh, and let's just give all classes every ability every other class has..........oooh, oooh, and while we're at it, let's give every race every other race's abilities, and no more restictions on weapons, or wands, or scrolls, and no more level restrictions on equipment...........There! I just fixed the whole game!

Brilliant!

Dungnmaster001
04-11-2008, 11:12 AM
I'm ok with making the faith lines more powerful - but each one costs 10 AP and you have to take a worthless feat to get them.

For instance, in order to take follower of the vulkoor, you need cleric concentration II, Cleric Diplomacy II, and Snake Blood Feat. Then you can spend 4 AP's to get the first tier enhancement which will give +1 to hit and damage with ss's, the use of turn undead to grant ss proficiency to someone, and an aura which gives a buff or mob debuff that would correspond with Vulkoor's tenets. (whatever that might be). Of course the second tier would require you to spend 6-8 more AP's on worthless junk you don't want, followed by 4-6 more AP's for the second tier enhancement itself.

Exactly. The faith lines are much easier to take than class specialties due to prerequisites. In order to bring them into line with the specialties it'll require making the prereqs more demanding for the faiths.

Now it would be interesting to see a 3rd tier to the faith line that has higher prereqs and is more on par with the class specialties.

Ricter
04-11-2008, 11:37 AM
:rolleyes:

The cost is identical, the prereqs are not.

If you're going to nitpick, he might not have been talking about AP cost, but rather the total cost to get the ability.

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 11:43 AM
:rolleyes:

The cost is identical, the prereqs are not.

Prereqs are Free? :rolleyes:

COme on..... Some ar emore harsh than others, but really, Tempest is Extremely Feat intensive....

FEATS: Dodge: Some rangers take this anyway.... but VERY few.. 1 AC just doenst mean enough. Mobility: No Ranger would take this if it wasnt a prereq. Its a complete waste of a feat. THe only characters that can get minor use from this are tanks. +4 AC while Tumbling???? Who Tumbles while fighting? Spring Attack I have this on my Tank.. But then he has lots of feats to play with. Its Cool to not have to take that -4 penalty, but there IS a mojor drawback to moving and figting... You NEVER get deep into your attack chain.. So while the efective +4 while Moving is nice, your -11 because your moving on your last attacks.. :eek: Its imply Not an efficient use of Feats for a Ranger...

So 3 essentially Useless Feats for 10% greater atack rate..... I have a hard time justifying it myself.

ANd Way of the Assasin? Extremely Enahncment Intensive....

3 AP's for Damage Boost 2. Ugh.. 20 Second Clickies are the WORST part of this game.
2AP for Sneak Attack Training 1 (1AP w/ Mod7)
1AP for Sneak Attack Accuracy OK, +2(+3) to sneak atacks is good)
6 AP's Hide II & Move Silently II More FLuff.... My MS and Hide are already high enough.. 6aps for 2 more point sof each is a waste of AP's But Gotta Have it
1AP Subtle Backstabber I: SOme like it, SOme dont need it...

so thats 13 Action Points before you NEED to spend before the 2 AP's needed for WotA. WHich, Is Questionable in its effectiveness...

Now To get WotAII You need to Spend 10 MORE action points on SAT and SAA II and III before you need to spend 4 more points for WotA II....

FOr a Total of 29 Action Points :eek: Near HALF your action Points invested for the Ability to do what a Vorpal can do for all practival Purposes......



I like our Faith Lines..... I'd like to see the 10 Minute Cooldown become a 1/1 CLicky... or at least Reset when we shrine..... and it would be nice to see an addition enhancments that would allow us to take extra uses as well...

Our faith Lines are pretty powerfull for the investment....

Laith
04-11-2008, 11:50 AM
:rolleyes:

The cost is identical, the prereqs are not.

as others have pointed out, obtaining a specialty takes a MAJOR dedication of AP and/or feats. Often, you would NOT have chosen these feats/enhancements on their merits alone.

When you take the prereq not for its own merit, but for the sake of getting a later ability: it's stupid not to consider it as part of the cost. That's basic economics.

Now, of course, if these prereqs were chosen or built differently, then their merits might stand up on their own.
As it is currently though, many of them just serve to waste the players AP/feats (or to add "flavor"), because they add little or no benefit on their own.

Of course, i wouldn't mind a reduction in faith-timer or to have them reset upon rest .
Or maybe reset upon using X turns, or Y lay on hands for no purpose other than that of the faith-reset.
Maybe even the option of having fewer daily turns/LoHs with an improved faith timer/number of uses (it'd recharge like the new smite mechanic)

Aesop
04-11-2008, 11:52 AM
Well in concession to Cow the 10min cooldowns are a bit (lot?) excessive. Halve those and ya got something I think


Aesop

Talon_Moonshadow
04-11-2008, 12:28 PM
While I would like to see them improved. Especially added to at higher lvls maybe.

That Drow Scorpian kicks butt at lvl 6!
And being able to raise dead at lvl 6 is pretty good too.
The healing one cures just about anything, but can only be used once. :(

So.....I would say they are ok for lvl6. I just think they should get better.

And I'd like to see more added of course. More is always better.

Letting Pallies choose them at lvl 6 is a good move.....they are not very powerful at lvl 9.

MysticTheurge
04-11-2008, 12:40 PM
The faith enhancements shouldn't be changed.

Cleric specialties should be added. When they get around to them. Clerics (unlike several other classes) aren't in desperate need of some help.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 12:55 PM
The faith enhancements shouldn't be changed.

Cleric specialties should be added. When they get around to them. Clerics (unlike several other classes) aren't in desperate need of some help.

The timers need to be adjusted......

among a few other improvements that need to happen for clerics. Fortunatly you will be able to hear all of my opinions in their glory on DDOCast this week.

As a side note..... I am thinking of starting up a new segment on DDOCast that would be all about clerics in addition to my impromptu cohosting of the show.

Snoggy
04-11-2008, 01:14 PM
i think the original point of this thread was that they don't stack up to anything really
they aren't terrible lines to choose but at the same time they really are short of anything spectacular..... in a way that's how they are meant to be though

look at Dragon Marks..... most characters plum don't use them and thats a testament to their overall power
it's a huge investment to take them to a point where they become really useful but then again it all depends on the build

the same issue applies here, they aren't great but some builds can get use out of them - they are a flavour thing which is pretty cool

while i don't ever invest in them it's nice to see Turbine putting the faith aspect into Paladins and Clerics - far from domains but cool nonetheless

Are you trying to suggest that fighter prestige enhancements are better than these? If so, you're going to have to provide a specific example of which fighter class prestige enhancement is actually better than these. Or rather, you're simply going to have to provide an example of ANY fighter class prestige enhancements, since, well ... you know .... they don't exist.

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 01:15 PM
Fortunatly, Itunes has a FF Button.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 01:49 PM
Are you trying to suggest that fighter prestige enhancements are better than these? If so, you're going to have to provide a specific example of which fighter class prestige enhancement is actually better than these. Or rather, you're simply going to have to provide an example of ANY fighter class prestige enhancements, since, well ... you know .... they don't exist.

I have a feeling fighters will be next up on the list. I also believe casters and clerics will be the last to be looked at.....

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Fortunatly, Itunes has a FF Button.

That is not very nice.

MysticTheurge
04-11-2008, 01:54 PM
I also believe casters and clerics will be the last to be looked at.....

Yes. For a reason.

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 01:55 PM
Yes. For a reason.

says you....

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 01:57 PM
That is not very nice.

Oh, I just meant so I could get to yoru Segment faster!

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 01:58 PM
Oh, I just meant so I could get to yoru Segment faster!

uh huh.....

Stanley_Nicholas
04-11-2008, 02:25 PM
I think clerics and paladins should get the faith lines for free, as they currently are. Implement them as extra feats, like the rogue special abilities or ranger favored enemies. Since we don't get domains, and the faith lines are indeed far inferior to the enhancement lines of other classes per action point, this is the least they could do.

oronisi
04-11-2008, 02:31 PM
I prefer to think of the current Cleric and Paladin enhancements as flavor and not to be compared with the other 'prestige class enhancements'. I'm still waiting for Cleric and Paladin enhancements of the 'prestige class' level. I would prefer they do not use the current Sovereign Host / Undying Court / Bladesworn platform as their base.

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 02:38 PM
I think clerics and paladins should get the faith lines for free, as they currently are. Implement them as extra feats, like the rogue special abilities or ranger favored enemies. Since we don't get domains, and the faith lines are indeed far inferior to the enhancement lines of other classes per action point, this is the least they could do.

As Pointed out, the Benefit received compared to the Action Point/Prereq Requirements invested is already quite good.

2 Action Points Flat for 2 Feats is a Very good return on your investment. (You get a Proficency AND Focus in that Weapon)

FOr 4 Action points

The Drow Scorpion is quite efective until about L10(THis Is probobly the Weakest Link)

THe Ability to Raise Dead/Resurect is the Equivalent of 30-40 Spell Points (EotZ IV is 4 AP's for 30 Spell Points)

The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

Silver FLame is Basically a Use of Dismissal. (25 Spell Points)

and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


All they need is to be changed to CLickys with the ability to buy extra uses via more action points spent.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-11-2008, 02:47 PM
As Pointed out, the Benefit received compared to the Action Point/Prereq Requirements invested is already quite good.

2 Action Points Flat for 2 Feats is a Very good return on your investment. (You get a Proficency AND Focus in that Weapon)

FOr 4 Action points

The Drow Scorpion is quite efective until about L10(THis Is probobly the Weakest Link)

THe Ability to Raise Dead/Resurect is the Equivalent of 30-40 Spell Points (EotZ IV is 4 AP's for 30 Spell Points)

The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

Silver FLame is Basically a Use of Dismissal. (25 Spell Points)

and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


All they need is to be changed to CLickys with the ability to buy extra uses via more action points spent.

I disagree with your opinion, I find them to still be quite weak. I have 2 clerics and have tried out the faiths my races would allow.

llevenbaxx
04-11-2008, 02:47 PM
and Lord of the Blades Is as good if not better than Tensors.....


.

With the unique penalty of no divine healing(other than LOH)it really makes it next to impossible to use in boss fights, the time you would like to use it most. Arcanes in my experience still dont take healing WF as something they should have to do... There are a few out there though who actually play the class to the fullest. Remove that penalty and its as good if not better that Tensors

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 02:50 PM
I disagree with your opinion, I find them to still be quite weak. I have 2 clerics and have tried out the faiths my races would allow.
Then you are looking at them Compared to other more expensive Enhancements rather than the logical view I have shown. Thats ok....




With the unique penalty of no divine healing(other than LOH)it really makes it next to impossible to use in boss fights, the time you would like to use it most. Arcanes in my experience still dont take healing WF as something they should have to do... There are a few out there though.
Hmmm.. I usualy Heal during difficult Boss fights.... and theres nothing stopping you from Drinking Repair Potions.

ThrasherGT
04-11-2008, 02:54 PM
No Clerics are one of the most requested classes in the game.

Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).

Using your logic Pallies can melee better than clerics and clerics can cast better than pallies. Seems like they would be even. So in fact with your logic, Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Since we know that Pallies are not one of the most powerful classes in the game....... it would seem your entire premise does not add up.

I'm sorry, But You are clearly using Your logic to justify Your point. My point was that clerics can do everything most other classes can do (with some exceptions i.e. DD, OL, they don't get the same range of offensive spells as Wiz/Sorc, etc.), and are considered by many to be the most powerful class in the game.

My question to You is this: What is it You want to happen here? Paladins and Clerics have their own niche in DDO, and every class has their strengths and weaknesses. Parity between classes is an Unrealistic expectation. Do some classes need some "help" ?
Sure they do. If You feel a class is weak, then You have the choice to not play that class. I myself have never, and I never plan on, making a paladin. I see no reason to make one the way they are specced right now. That is My choice.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-11-2008, 03:09 PM
Then you are looking at them Compared to other more expensive Enhancements rather than the logical view I have shown. Thats ok....
Oh, I see now. Thank you for informing me that my opinion, unlike yours, is illogical, based on your assumptions. Obviously I was wrong. I have seen the light!

Cowdenicus
04-11-2008, 03:11 PM
I'm sorry, But You are clearly using Your logic to justify Your point. My point was that clerics can do everything most other classes can do (with some exceptions i.e. DD, OL, they don't get the same range of offensive spells as Wiz/Sorc, etc.), and are considered by many to be the most powerful class in the game.

My question to You is this: What is it You want to happen here? Paladins and Clerics have their own niche in DDO, and every class has their strengths and weaknesses. Parity between classes is an Unrealistic expectation. Do some classes need some "help" ?
Sure they do. If You feel a class is weak, then You have the choice to not play that class. I myself have never, and I never plan on, making a paladin. I see no reason to make one the way they are specced right now. That is My choice.

People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested. If clerics were the most powerful class in the game, there would be lots of clerics, you know like there are lots of sorcerors and barbarians.

That being said, what do i want to have happen, I want the recasts/colldowns to be looked at for all of the abilities. I want the res ability completely changed. I want the CR of the summoned drow to be tied to caster level. I want the cooldown for bladesworn to be changed and I want the heal penalty to be reduced. I want the cooldown for unyielding soverignity to be something a bit more friendly than say once every ten minutes.

If rogues are getting a kill shot every 10 secs, and +8 sneak attack damage, and a bunch of bonuses to skills, and poisons for the cost of 6 AP, I think clerics should get a little better than a heal every 10 minutes (50 sp).

I mean heck the way it works out now, rogues for this one ability are going to get the equivalent of 40 sp per use of the kill ability (FoD or Destruction, but at a much higher DC than casters can achieve) times 60 uses so 2400 sp worth of caster ability in the same time the cleric or pally can throw one heal for 50 sp.

2400 sp> 50 sp.

jkm
04-11-2008, 03:11 PM
The ABility to cast a Heal that wil bring any character in the game from 1 HP to Max is Worth 35 Spell Points easy (ANd dont forget this Resets Death Penalty as wel!)

just to be accurate, it heals for a 1000 +/- any bonuses or restrictions on the character. so a WF with no healers friend gets 500 and a wf who takes the fortification feat gets a big fat zero (or did the last time i tried it).

yes, it gets rid of the death penalty and negative levels, however, it also doesn't heal them of those hit points either (like the description implies that it would). so if a characters has 12 negative levels, you are going to have to follow up with a heal anyway.

llevenbaxx
04-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Hmmm.. I usualy Heal during difficult Boss fights.... and theres nothing stopping you from Drinking Repair Potions.

Yeah becasue thats practical during a boss fight.:) Repair potions are not the way to go when youre getting beat on by the toughest mobs in the game... My arcane casters also carry a stack of Reconstruct scrolls and Im happy to use them, this is very far from the norm, trust me. Handing them out does work sometimes, more often than not they still forget.

Unless you have a great arcane with you, using it in an endfight equals dead/incap. I know.:)

Is sorta funny though I have tried to set it up ahead of time a few times to have the caster flake out and... forget? So I start asking for "repairs" to have the cleric screaming I cant target you! or its not working!.. even though Im plainly in site. Had a few get a little frustrated.

Would be much better in a persistent group i suppose.

esoitl
04-11-2008, 03:14 PM
The faith enhancements shouldn't be changed.

Cleric specialties should be added. When they get around to them. Clerics (unlike several other classes) aren't in desperate need of some help.

thank you... someone who realizes the difference between a line of faith and a class specialty


SNOGGY: sure there are no fighter specialties or great enhancement lines as of yet but the fact that they get close to double, if not more, feats than any other clas basically guarantees anyone can specialize themselves that way

not saying that they are unwarranted but at this point when clerics are among the most powerful of classes there is little to be needed to impove the class

fighters are meant to be diversified through feats and as such are hard to pinpoint exactly where you would ever choose to add a class spec or enhancement line

most have a general breakdown of what they can spec in, fighters are not so narrow...

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 03:20 PM
People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested. If clerics were the most powerful class in the game, there would be lots of clerics, you know like there are lots of sorcerors and barbarians.

That being said, what do i want to have happen, I want the recasts/colldowns to be looked at for all of the abilities. I want the res ability completely changed. I want the CR of the summoned drow to be tied to caster level. I want the cooldown for bladesworn to be changed and I want the heal penalty to be reduced. I want the cooldown for unyielding soverignity to be something a bit more friendly than say once every ten minutes.

If rogues are getting a kill shot every 10 secs, and +8 sneak attack damage, and a bunch of bonuses to skills, and poisons for the cost of 6 AP, I think clerics should get a little better than a heal every 10 minutes (50 sp).

I mean heck the way it works out now, rogues for this one ability are going to get the equivalent of 40 sp per use of the kill ability (FoD or Destruction, but at a much higher DC than casters can achieve) times 60 uses so 2400 sp worth of caster ability in the same time the cleric or pally can throw one heal for 50 sp.

2400 sp> 50 sp.
Cow.. as I detailed above, WotA II takes Twenty Nine ACtion points.. Not 6. and the DC is 10+Rogue Level +Int Modifier.... Even If your Pure Rogue, you'd have to have a 20(Making it 31) Int to Reach the DC a Cleric Can get on Destruction 10 + 7(Spell Level) +11 WIS+ SPell Focus Item = 31). The DC isnt outrageous at all.

There are also Lots of Clerics..... Its just that the Percentage of Anonymous Clerics is pretty high.

Impaqt
04-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Yeah becasue thats practical during a boss fight.:) Theres Nothing Practical About Going Badesworn During a Boss Fight to Begin with.... The Reavor can easily be done with one COmpetant Arcane Correct? Now, What would you think if after Buffing all up, Instead of Laying down soem Disco Bals and Crowd Control, that Arcane Tensored Himself and ran off to Tank the reaver?

llevenbaxx
04-11-2008, 03:38 PM
Theres Nothing Practical About Going Badesworn During a Boss Fight to Begin with.... The Reavor can easily be done with one COmpetant Arcane Correct? Now, What would you think if after Buffing all up, Instead of Laying down soem Disco Bals and Crowd Control, that Arcane Tensored Himself and ran off to Tank the reaver?

Not sure what youre getting at but no its not practical to the point it doesnt get used very often, or at the times I would really like to use it. A good paly ability they over restricted to the point its a pain to use.

Far as the arcane tanking, hey, if thats what he was build for. Have a WF ftr9/wiz6 who uses Tensors from scrolls. Sure I cant cast for the scrolls duration but thats short and infinitely recastable at my discretion and can still recieve support from a friendly cleric or arcane. Its a big penalty for the benefits is all im saying, making Tensors superior.

MysticTheurge
04-11-2008, 04:16 PM
People commonly mistake most powerful for most requested.

This is ironic.

Zuldar
04-11-2008, 07:39 PM
This is ironic.

Perhaps, but it's high time that some kind of statement be made about implementing cleric's domains. No other class has had one of their prime class features, gained at first level I might add, ignored for almost 7 mods now. Seven modules is far too long to push the issue under the rug, hoping it will go away.

Vormaerin
04-11-2008, 10:13 PM
Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion.
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either.
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil.

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.

Zuldar
04-12-2008, 01:46 AM
Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion.
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either.
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil.

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.

I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.

Hvymetal
04-12-2008, 02:33 AM
I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.Regardless of whether or not you would compare them in power your statement was that no other core class abilities had been ignored for 7 mods now.

While I agree in prinicple, Clerics also need to have some more forms of diversification & specialization available to them, I also feel that casters & Clerics are likely to recieve theirs last. I am ok with that (yes I have a Cleric & a Wizard), they are the least in need of them, I would love to have them and would hate to see them never get anything else, but I am ok with them getting theirs last.

As to Bladesworn, I use it sometimes on nothing fights on my Cleric just for fun, it's not terribly usefull and it doesn;t really last long enough to allow you the luxury to chug potions, you burn up valuable time. Although it works nicely when you cast Divine Power & Divine Favor first:D

Vormaerin
04-12-2008, 04:25 AM
I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

Secondly as far as being "overpowered", if it's good enough for pnp it's good enough for ddo.

If it was the same thing in DDO as it was in p&p, your statement might hold true. But its not going to be unless domains are implemented as 1/rest clicky abilities or something. A domain spell in p&p can ONLY be selected in the domain slot. So you get one of the two domain spells you know for each level ONCE per rest. That's a far cry from getting stoneskin, firewall, etc as often as desired which is what would happen if the domains were added to cleric spell choices.

Vormaerin
04-12-2008, 04:52 AM
Leaving aside the issue that the clerics are in no need of a power up.. implementing domains would be a monumental pain in the butt. The vast majority of domain spells are not in the game and most of them wouldn't be useful in the game.

Spells actually in game (some of which are already cleric spells): Air Domain: 2 spells, Animal Domain 1 spell, Chaos Domain 1 spell, Death Domain 5 spells, Destruction Domain 6 spells, Earth Domain 1 spell, Fire Domain 5 spells, Good Domain 5 spells, Healing Domain.. no game effect whatsoever..., Knowledge domain 2 spells, Law Domain 2 spells, Luck Domain 4 spells, Magic domain 2 spells, Plant domain 1 spell, Protection Domain 2 spells, Strength domain 2 spells, Sun domain 5 spells, Travel domain 4 spells, Trickery domain 1 spell, War Domain 4 spells, Water domain 7 spells.

If you implement domains even halfway close to p&p, you'll see most clerics taking Fire and Water.. Not many clerics wouldn't want to add Burning Hands, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Incendiary Cloud, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, and Horrid Wilting (as well as Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud for laughs) to their spell choices...

MysticTheurge
04-12-2008, 08:10 AM
I would hardly compare any of those to domains, though wizard specializations might come close.

They all compare pretty well. Animal Companions is probably a class feature more central to rangers than domains are to clerics.

None of them might compare with the cleric's "Two free feats and one extra spell per day at each level" in terms of power, but D&D clerics are overpowered. Domains is one of the reasons for that.


Healing Domain.. no game effect whatsoever...

In truth, we all kind of have the Healing Domain by default...

Griphon
04-12-2008, 09:55 AM
My two cents..

I have never taken the 'Faith' lines on a cleric of mine. (I play two.) I would have thought that I never would.. But honestly, I'm curious as to the idea of a WF 6 Cleric and a 14 Barbarian... Do your Divine buff spells for damage... Rage.. then hit the Bladesworn.. (Or reverse the last two.) Looks like the buffs would stack and be scary.

But! I think the other Cleric 'Faith' lines are weak if compared to the 'prestige like' lines. Here's the kicker.. They're not the same things, guys. Sorry.

Do I think the clerics need their 'specialty' lines? No. I think they need their Domains.
Do I think they need it now? No not really. They're pretty powerful in the game as is, and in a better sitting than the poor fighters and pally's.. (Pally's will soon be out of the un-loved' box)

What would I have liked to see happen? An additions to the to Enhancement lines be done -at the same time-. Each class gets a new spiffy toy at the same time. No favored 'love' for this cycle, please.. Just develop across the board for them all! This will hopefully make them all similarly equal in power instead of making one line more powerful because it was created 3 cycles further down than the others... and the game had changed -that- much.

Aesop
04-12-2008, 10:55 AM
Uhh, what?


Rangers: No animal companion. but they get both ranged and twf lines no choice needed
Wizards: No familiars, no Scribe Scroll or other item creation feats. No wizard specializations, either. but... nope nothin
Paladins: No mounts, no detect evil. but they do get that Aura thing

Domains would be much more powerful in DDO than they are in p&p. In p&p, you can take ONE casting of one of your two domain spells for each level. In DDO, if you had fire domain you'd be able to cast firewall until the cows came home to the ashes of your family ranch. I'm all for granting domains, but they better be implemented in some fashion that doesn't make clerics even more dominant than they are.



:D

Aesop

Zuldar
04-12-2008, 04:11 PM
They all compare pretty well. Animal Companions is probably a class feature more central to rangers than domains are to clerics.

None of them might compare with the cleric's "Two free feats and one extra spell per day at each level" in terms of power, but D&D clerics are overpowered. Domains is one of the reasons for that.



In truth, we all kind of have the Healing Domain by default...

Animals Companions are hardly one of their more central abilities, if it we're druids it would be a different story. Seeing as rangers don't get them till 4th level and then they only get one as a druid one half their level. At the level cap you'd either have a cr 1 wolf with 4 more hit dice, or if turbine felt really frisky a plain ol brown bear.

Ustice
04-12-2008, 05:15 PM
If we are worried about having clerics casting firewall to their heart's content, we could instead give them a once per rest class ability for each spell level (ie, cleric levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17). Each one would have a sub menu like the protection spells which could allow for the specific ability to be hotbarred.

It feels strange to have to pay AP for a class feature.

Vormaerin
04-12-2008, 07:38 PM
There are basically three ways domains could be implements... None of them address the fact that most of the domain spells don't exist, so that creating a meaningful variety of domains would be impossible.

1) As a clicky class feat that functions similar to dragonmarks. You get one use of each spell per rest. This is the closest to p&p, in that the spells are one shot and are in addition to the usual spell pool. Clerics would be thanking the devs for hotbars 11-20 for sure with potentially 20 new clicky spells and powers to keep track of....

2) As extra spells the cleric can select for their usual spell slots. This would be the easiest way, but pretty overpowered for an already first rate class and also makes even more domain spells vanish, as they are spells clerics already have the option to chose.

3) As separate spells with their own mana bar, so they still cast like DDO spontaneous spells without the problems of #2. This is beyond unlikely.

Since the devs would need to come up with 21 new feats (the domain abilities), enough spells to fill out the domain lists without giving the cleric every spell anywhere in the game, some sort of feat selection for the domains themselves, and potentially some clicky UI casting mechanism just to make the most powerful class in the game even better... well, I hope the devs are spending their time on other things.

Vormaerin
04-12-2008, 07:51 PM
Animals Companions are hardly one of their more central abilities, if it we're druids it would be a different story. Seeing as rangers don't get them till 4th level and then they only get one as a druid one half their level. At the level cap you'd either have a cr 1 wolf with 4 more hit dice, or if turbine felt really frisky a plain ol brown bear.

So... spellcasting isn't central to rangers or paladins either, since they don't get it until lvl 4? I suppose shapeshifting isn't central to druids because they don't get it until lvl 5?

Neither druid nor ranger animal companions are meaningfully useful combatants in p&p, though a druid can try to make theirs into one by casting a whole array of specialty buffs on it. They would obviously be even worse in DDO between the upgrade in monster power and the weakness of the ally AI. It doesn't change the fact that its a central feature of the class that is routinely asked for by ranger players coming from p&p into an online D&D CRPG. Even an 11 HD badger with 25 AC, Improved Evasion, Multiattack, and Rage is still useless in a lvl 16 combat.. around the table or at the computer. A pet Tyrranosaur is a bit more useful in combat, but pretty hard to take on most adventures....

vyvy3369
04-12-2008, 08:10 PM
Cow.. as I detailed above, WotA II takes Twenty Nine ACtion points.. Not 6. and the DC is 10+Rogue Level +Int Modifier.... Even If your Pure Rogue, you'd have to have a 20(Making it 31) Int to Reach the DC a Cleric Can get on Destruction 10 + 7(Spell Level) +11 WIS+ SPell Focus Item = 31). The DC isnt outrageous at all.
The DC isn't outrageous at all? Compare it to Stunning Blow, which I think most people would agree is one of the most powerful melee attack abilities available.

On my fighter, I've spent 22 Action Points towards inreasing the DC, and have an almost maximum possible strength, giving me a DC of 28 + Weighted, but I don't really use Weighted any more after getting access to crafted weapons. Note that a pure-classed Rogue could achieve that same DC with an Int of 14. Stunning Blow has a 15 second cooldown, this one is only 10. Also note that DC28 lands very frequently, even on Elite. So...an almost definitely higher DC, faster cooldown, and instant death instead of just Stunning for 7 more Action Points. Oh, and they also get all the other bonuses from those 29 action points, like more sneak attack damage, etc.

Yeah it has the drawback of that it must be a sneak attack, but the enhancement gives a bonus to Bluff, which allows for sneak attacks. Or combine it with a Radiance weapon, and death attack as soon as they're blinded.

I'm not complaining about the rogue ability though, it sounds pretty awesome...It actually made me think about rolling another one up to make use of it. It's just really annoying to see that Fighters haven't gotten anything all that great since...I can't even remember. I'm still not even back to as powerful of enhancements as I had back when we only had 4 at a time.

Edit: oh, and comparing it to Destruction isn't really fair either. I'm assuming the death attack won't have to worry about penetrating SR...

Vormaerin
04-12-2008, 09:12 PM
Paladins can also fight (better than clerics I might add), Heal (LOH and spells), cast, and turn undead. (DV is not an ability useful to clerics, it is useful to others in a clerics group, if I am out soloing, the AP spent on DV's or whatever are completely wasted as I cannot target myself with them).


If you really believe this based on your experience with clerics, I really think you need to spend more time learning how to build and play the class. Honestly, that statement is so untrue its farcical. Let's look at it in more detail.. For the purposes of the following discussion, assume that when I say "combat" I mean melee weapons.

First, Stats: Paladins need Str, Con, Wis, Cha and could use Dex. Clerics need Str, Con, Wis. Dex and Cha are nice, but optional.
A cleric who wants to be able to fight can have better stats than the paladin, as they don't need Charisma if they don't want it. If they do want Charisma, their combat stats are equal to paladin's. Neither clerics nor paladins get any useful combat stat enhancement options. Paladins will probably spend all their level ups on physical stats, but clerics probably won't. Draw.

Second, BaB/HP. The only place the paladin compares favorably... At cap, +4 BaB and 32hp. Some of this may be offset by the cleric's better stats, but we'll ignore that. Edge to Paladins.

Third, Feats, Neither class has any 'must have' not combat feats but its true a cleric will generally take more spell casting feats.than a paladin would. Paladin might gain slightly in combat as a result. Paladins get Smite Evil, which currently has a negligible impact on DPS and an aura that gives AC. Slight edge to paladins.

Fourth, Enhancements: Clerics don't have any combat enhancements except the Faith bonus. Paladins get that, plus Toughness and Attack Boost. Toughness is pretty good, attack boost less so. Slight edge to Paladins

Fifth, Spells: Paladins get Divine Favor, Virtue, Angelskin, and Bless/Prayer. Clerics get: Aid (equal to Virtue and Bless together), Divine Favor, Divine Power, Recitation, and some stuff probably redundant with equipment. As well as vastly more spell points. Major advantage to clerics.. even without counting crowd control and destructive spells.

Sixth, Healing: Clerics smoke paladins at healing, even as much LoH as the paladin can scrape up. End of story.

There's no difference in equipment between a paladin and a cleric except the paladin can use martial weapons, which is useful. Both classes have pretty much the same item needs, except the cleric needs potency item and a paladin just wishes he had a use for one.

Clerics will be about the same in to hit as the paladin, pretty close on HP unless the paladin takes the full toughness enhancement line, a little worse on average damage, and maybe a point or two off on AC. But the cleric's spell points will keep the buffs up far longer than the paladin will be able to. If somehow the two are driven to the uttermost end of extremity and can't cast any spells.. the paladin will have a moderate edge in to hit. But the paladin will be there a lot sooner.

If you allow the cleric to use Blade Barrier and Greater Command, the paladin's not even in the picture any more. If you allow the cleric to take 1 level of fighter (ie Cleric15/Fighter1) then even the unbuffed advantages of the paladin (other than AC aura) are gone.

A paladin will smoke a healbot in melee. He won't stand a chance against a cleric who intends to melee. And that cleric will still be able to heal and buff others just fine.

Zuldar
04-12-2008, 10:42 PM
So... spellcasting isn't central to rangers or paladins either, since they don't get it until lvl 4? I suppose shapeshifting isn't central to druids because they don't get it until lvl 5?

Neither druid nor ranger animal companions are meaningfully useful combatants in p&p, though a druid can try to make theirs into one by casting a whole array of specialty buffs on it. They would obviously be even worse in DDO between the upgrade in monster power and the weakness of the ally AI. It doesn't change the fact that its a central feature of the class that is routinely asked for by ranger players coming from p&p into an online D&D CRPG. Even an 11 HD badger with 25 AC, Improved Evasion, Multiattack, and Rage is still useless in a lvl 16 combat.. around the table or at the computer. A pet Tyrranosaur is a bit more useful in combat, but pretty hard to take on most adventures....

Aye, but they didn't forget spell casting for rangers or paladins, now did they? And I can pretty much guarantee that when druids come out that they will have wildshape. Clerics didn't get domains.

Strangely, I don't see a lot of posts asking for ranger's animal companions either. Rangers are always asking for increased ranged attack speed, and an improved manyshot.

Even if they added animal companions, rangers wouldn't get a badger with 11 HD, you'd get one with 5 HD with 2 claws dealing 1d2 damage, and a bite dealing 1d3. Add on an extra +2 damage if it's raging.

Vormaerin
04-13-2008, 02:34 AM
You used to see requests like that, but they got pretty well told "don't bother" so you don't get them very much anymore. And I didn't say they forgot, I said your argument for why they aren't "central" was flawed. Now what are you saying? They aren't central because DDO didn't include them?

Animal companions are as iconic for rangers as they are for druids. I'm not saying they should be implemented or that they'd be useful.. frankly, animal companions in CRPGs are almost always completely useless unless they get souped up to silly levels. But you can't claim that only clerics didn't get all their toys, nor have you even tried to address the problems that implementing domains would bring. IMHO, its pretty darn close to "It can't be done" unless you do it the NWN2 way of basically redoing everything, gutting the spell lists and dropping a bunch of them as too hard to do.

MysticTheurge
04-13-2008, 11:49 AM
Rangers are always asking for increased ranged attack speed, and an improved manyshot.

Rangers, the class, don't ask for this.

Rangers, the people who use ranged weapons, ask for this. It's fighters, bards and rogues as often as it is rangers.

bohemianbeast
04-13-2008, 12:22 PM
I'm not afraid of making Faith Lines like class specialty enhancements. Palladins and Clerics are both powered by their faiths, so why not let that be a major driving force behind the class? If anything, the only real danger of doing this is the necessity of creating cookie cutter, LINEAR characters to be effective (and I so detest WoW...).

I think you could balance it out with making the first tier just a bit more useful (and cost 2 ap), have a 2nd tier that requires enhancement prereqs (and cost 4 ap), and then have a 3rd tier that has further enhancement prereqs as well as a feat prereq that has a major impact on the character (or be an "irritating" feat for rp purposes to show the character's "faith"), like making Bladesworn take Imp Fortification for example. If you wanted, you could also require a feat for the 2nd tier as well, but make it a more "useful" one related to the character's build. Following the Bladesworn example, make them take improved dmg reduction, or to have taken the addy body feat.

Also, tie in the character's wis and char stats to the abilities: make the undead turns be the amount the abilities may be used, and then have the wis stat affect the potency of the effect. I think that this will in effect create a balance between pallies and clerics since pallies are often more zealous (cha and the number of times they call upon the gods for one-timer types of things), while clerics are more powerful in effect since they regularly execute the very will of their gods themselves (have a closer "connection" because of their wis). This change will even encourage wf clerics and pallies to have more than minimal cha stats.

As far as cool-down timers are concerned, allow them to be shortened as the class lvl increases: it makes sense that just a lvl 6 character can only heal 1000 hp once every 10 minutes, or a wf to become an engine of destruction once in a while... but at lvl 20 they should be able to do that MUCH more frequently (a wf on perma "holy" rage, for example:eek:).

Keeping the class lvls for when enhancements abilities are available the same. I think the devs were right when they made this decision since a cleric has a closer connection to their respective god than a palladin. Given the power of the 3rd and final tier, it would be understandable to have that available only at a significantly high lvl.


I play wf so here's what I thought the LoB line should be. If you look at the enhancement prereqs, you'll see that it's a 30 ap total, which is similar to rogue and bard specialty lines. The idea was that a wf cleric/palladin would want to get "closer" to becoming a construct demi-god.


Follower of the Lord of Blades:

1) Champion of the Lord of Blades
Requires: 2 ap
-Gain (permanent) profiency and a +1 attack bonus with greatswords

2) Bladesworn Transformation - 4 ap
Requires: Warforged Construct Thinking I (1 ap), Warforged Damage Reduction I (2ap)
-As is, but modified to be used instead of a use of turn undead, and have duration linked to wis stat, almost like a barbarian's rage.

3) Deus Ex Machina - 6 ap
Requires: Improved Fortification (feat), Construct Thinking III (2 + 3 ap), Warforged Damage Reduction III (4 + 6 ap)
-You may cast (your respective cleric/palladin spells) while using Bladesworn Transformation. In addition, your healing line of spells have full effect on constructs (including those with the Improved Fortifcation feat*), but are only 50% effective on non-constructs (or to damage undead); likewise, your inflict wounds line of spells may be used against constructs as though they were non-constructs, but are only %50 effective against non-constructs (or to heal undead). Palladins may use "Smite Evil" abilities on constructs (regardless of the target's alignment), as well as gain a +5 profane bonus to attack while using "Smite Evil" abilities on constructs.

*This is potentially VERY over-powered. I just wanted a way for the cleric to effectively self-heal, really.



The main problem is that the enhancement prereqs would be messed up because pallies and clerics don't have the same enhancement lines, unless you just look at the racial faith lines, and use racial enhancements as I did for wf.

Zuldar
04-13-2008, 05:57 PM
Rangers, the class, don't ask for this.

Rangers, the people who use ranged weapons, ask for this. It's fighters, bards and rogues as often as it is rangers.

Obviously any ranged combat character is going to want it as well, I really didn't think it needed to be mentioned. The point was that rangers (the class) often want improved ranged combat and a better version of manyshot more then an animal companion.

MysticTheurge
04-13-2008, 09:18 PM
The point was that rangers (the class) often want improved ranged combat and a better version of manyshot more then an animal companion.

And my point was that it's not really a Ranger (the class) thing.

Nor do I see why it's really relevant. Wizards ask for more spells more than they ask for familiars. Heck, Clerics ask for more spells more often than they ask domains. Does that mean familiars and domains aren't something that anyone cares about?

Cowdenicus
04-13-2008, 09:32 PM
And my point was that it's not really a Ranger (the class) thing.

Nor do I see why it's really relevant. Wizards ask for more spells more than they ask for familiars. Heck, Clerics ask for more spells more often than they ask domains. Does that mean familiars and domains aren't something that anyone cares about?

When only 3 useful level 8 cleric spells make it into game, is there any wonder.

parvo
04-14-2008, 10:13 AM
Clerics are already extremely powerful. Thier faith lines take little resources to attain. All of them are over-the-top powerful for six level characters. I use the Vulkor one now. That Drow scorp is a CR 10 that can be buffed. It can single-handily take down any encounter in any dungeon below level eight. My guess is you've never used it. Clerics are also the most versatile class in DDO. Proposing they need greater power to equal their peers is misguided.

Zuldar
04-14-2008, 12:33 PM
Clerics are already extremely powerful. Thier faith lines take little resources to attain. All of them are over-the-top powerful for six level characters. I use the Vulkor one now. That Drow scorp is a CR 10 that can be buffed. It can single-handily take down any encounter in any dungeon below level eight. My guess is you've never used it. Clerics are also the most versatile class in DDO. Proposing they need greater power to equal their peers is misguided.

It's true that clerics are a fairly strong class, but they're not completely all mighty like many people claim. And if we start denying class features, straight out of the player's handbook, because we "deem" them too powerful where is that line gonna end. Perhaps we shouldn't give barbarians stronger rage class features, or casters shouldn't get 9th level spells because those are too powerful. What if we don't give fighters some of their bonus feats because we "deem" them to have too many. Maybe rogues are doing too much sneak attack damage, so let's take some of that away.

The bottom line is what people consider powerful is a matter of opinion, so I'm gonna bet my money on what's in the srd. It's a lot more objective then we are.

llevenbaxx
04-14-2008, 02:07 PM
As to Bladesworn, I use it sometimes on nothing fights on my Cleric just for fun, it's not terribly usefull and it doesn;t really last long enough to allow you the luxury to chug potions, you burn up valuable time. Although it works nicely when you cast Divine Power & Divine Favor first:D

All I was trying to get at. The penalties make it little more than another fluff ability... cool to use when it doesnt really matter.

QuantumFX
04-14-2008, 02:14 PM
Clerics are already extremely powerful. Thier faith lines take little resources to attain. All of them are over-the-top powerful for six level characters. I use the Vulkor one now. That Drow scorp is a CR 10 that can be buffed. It can single-handily take down any encounter in any dungeon below level eight. My guess is you've never used it. Clerics are also the most versatile class in DDO. Proposing they need greater power to equal their peers is misguided.

And promoting even more movement away from the d20 system by omitting domains is just as misguided.

Hvymetal
04-15-2008, 06:30 AM
All I was trying to get at. The penalties make it little more than another fluff ability... cool to use when it doesnt really matter.
Agree with that, but it does make people wonder how you cast Tensor's on yourself :D

Vormaerin
04-15-2008, 09:33 PM
And if we start denying class features, straight out of the player's handbook, because we "deem" them too powerful where is that line gonna end.

That's not what is being said. Domains weren't implemented because they are a pain in the behind to do in a way that even vaguely resembles p&p. They are predicated on a huge list of spells that have no purpose in a CRPG, grant a variety of powers that may or may not make any sense in a CRPG, and require special coding to keep them separate from the general pool of spells. I think in ebberon any one can take anything, so at least that's one hassle removed.

I posted earlier a list of how many of the 8 spells per domain were actually in DDO for the 16 core domains. It was mostly 1 or 2. And if you disqualify the spells that clerics already have on their list, barely a handful of domains actually do anything spell wise for clerics.

The argument that clerics are powerful already is not the reason domains weren't added. Its the reason why its not useful to spend the huge amount of resources needed to add them now. Clerics, barbs, and sorcerors don't need any help, so dev time should (IMHO, obviously) be spent on other things like helping paladins and fighters and adding entirely new classes.

Zuldar
04-15-2008, 11:00 PM
The argument that clerics are powerful already is not the reason domains weren't added. Its the reason why its not useful to spend the huge amount of resources needed to add them now. Clerics, barbs, and sorcerors don't need any help, so dev time should (IMHO, obviously) be spent on other things like helping paladins and fighters and adding entirely new classes.

On one hand you say that the reason for the lack of domains isn't because they're too powerful, then you go on to say that they are strong enough as is and it would be a waste of time making them.

The only issue with domains is spells. But if they make domains guess what, we'll have spells to go with them, everyone wins all around.

You say that it would be a waste of resources to make them, well I say they'd be resources very well spent indeed.

esoitl
04-15-2008, 11:11 PM
I'm not afraid of making Faith Lines like class specialty enhancements. Palladins and Clerics are both powered by their faiths, so why not let that be a major driving force behind the class?

the faith lines already represent the ideas of Clerics and Paladins being holy and faithful classes
the whole idea of them is that the ability is granted by the gods of the particular faith and by this it only makes sense that they are not overpowerful and can be used sparingly

there are much better breakdowns and more important divisions in Paladin and Cleric as well that would serve much better both functionally and flavour wise than a general sweeping religious theme

it isn't much of a class specialty when Clerics and Paladins get the same thing now is it?
why don't we just give Tempest to Fighters as well??

esoitl
04-15-2008, 11:18 PM
On one hand you say that the reason for the lack of domains isn't because they're too powerful, then you go on to say that they are strong enough as is and it would be a waste of time making them.

The only issue with domains is spells. But if they make domains guess what, we'll have spells to go with them, everyone wins all around.

You say that it would be a waste of resources to make them, well I say they'd be resources very well spent indeed.

i can only guess one reason for their omission was the alignment issue
some require evil characters which was unfortunately left out - since there is an alignment requirement for most if not all i doubt you will ever see them implemented as they would then have to give alignment respec and possibly add the evil alignment
if you've ever played P&P you'll know domains are incredibly powerful

you'll also know that any caster has 10000 times more spells than they ever should
the only decent way to add domains and keep it true would be to add the spells as clickies which would be rather useless and add a ton of crappy domain boxes to hotbar for one use per day.... oh joy!!

besides that half of the domain grnted spells are not in the game, have no effect on the game, or are otherwise not so much needed as you can cast them more than you would in P&P

when you're limited to 3 or 4 spells per day that extra one is a big deal, when you can cast any spell as many times as you have sp, an extra few spells you already have memmed is rather pointles, no?

Vormaerin
04-15-2008, 11:33 PM
On one hand you say that the reason for the lack of domains isn't because they're too powerful, then you go on to say that they are strong enough as is and it would be a waste of time making them.

The only issue with domains is spells. But if they make domains guess what, we'll have spells to go with them, everyone wins all around.

You say that it would be a waste of resources to make them, well I say they'd be resources very well spent indeed.

No, I said the reason they weren't done originally was effort needed, not clerical power. The reason why the effort shouldn't be in now is because there are classes and races that actually need help to spend that effort on.

Just add spells? What the heck do you think most of those spells will actually do? Earth domain, for example: Magic Stone? Think folks will whine about effort spent on that? Soften Earth? Stone Shape? Wall of Stone? Get real. Spike Stones? Maybe useful. Earthquake the devs already admitted to having a problem developing.

Or Knowledge domain: Detect Thoughts? Clairaudience? Divination? Find the Path? Legend Lore? All knowledge skills (aka none) as class skills?

What about Healing Domain? Would it actually do anything except add +2-3 hp to folks heals? Every cleric already has all those spells as often as their spell bar holds out.

Trickery domain: Disguise Self? Nondetection? False Vision? Screen?

Most of the domains have 25-50% of their spells being like that. And there's about 50 odd spells on the lists that might be doable, but aren't in the game. Think the devs can add 50 spells any time soon? Much less 50 spells that are almost all for clerics without screeches from everyone else?

Plus you have to figure out how to implement domains at all. The only reasonable method is to make each a feat of 1/rest clickies plus the granted power feat. So 32 cleric only feats..

That's not any kind of minor work you are proposing. That "cleric love' would be the entirety of a mod, pretty much (aside from quests). So, no, I don't think its at all a reasonable thing for the devs to spend time on.

Ghoste
04-16-2008, 02:38 AM
Not thrilled with the idea of bladesworn transformation using a charge of turn undead instead of being on a 10 minute timer. I already use my single turn undead to give my cleric greatsword proficiency.

Hvymetal
04-16-2008, 03:11 AM
Not thrilled with the idea of bladesworn transformation using a charge of turn undead instead of being on a 10 minute timer. I already use my single turn undead to give my cleric greatsword proficiency.
Glad I took that level of Paladin now :)

parvo
04-16-2008, 07:15 PM
It's true that clerics are a fairly strong class, but they're not completely all mighty like many people claim. And if we start denying class features, straight out of the player's handbook, because we "deem" them too powerful where is that line gonna end. Perhaps we shouldn't give barbarians stronger rage class features, or casters shouldn't get 9th level spells because those are too powerful. What if we don't give fighters some of their bonus feats because we "deem" them to have too many. Maybe rogues are doing too much sneak attack damage, so let's take some of that away.

The bottom line is what people consider powerful is a matter of opinion, so I'm gonna bet my money on what's in the srd. It's a lot more objective then we are.

Clerics are way, way WAY WAY! more powerful here than PnP. Thier turns are about double strength. Their heals are about double strength. They can cast about 2-4 x the number of spells before resting. Their equipment and stats are outrageous in DDO. Clerics are not a fairly strong class in DDO. They are the strongest class. If you are going to argue they need some ability from PnP, you need to argue they need a big fat hairy nerf to put their current power in line with PnP.

parvo
04-16-2008, 07:18 PM
Not thrilled with the idea of bladesworn transformation using a charge of turn undead instead of being on a 10 minute timer. I already use my single turn undead to give my cleric greatsword proficiency.

You can get another turn fairly easily no? A bit like a useless Power X weapon. Just equip a Charisma + item until you expent that first turn for Bladesworn...

Cowdenicus
04-16-2008, 08:13 PM
Clerics are way, way WAY WAY! more powerful here than PnP. Thier turns are about double strength. Their heals are about double strength. They can cast about 2-4 x the number of spells before resting. Their equipment and stats are outrageous in DDO. Clerics are not a fairly strong class in DDO. They are the strongest class. If you are going to argue they need some ability from PnP, you need to argue they need a big fat hairy nerf to put their current power in line with PnP.

Sure nerf clerics. I am all for it. Just please wait until druids come out that way I can solo like no other.

I think what they should nerf is clerics healing abilities to make them more on par with other classes.

bohemianbeast
04-17-2008, 07:54 PM
If you read the proposed idea for the line, I said that the first tier should give you permanent proficiency (no clicky, you are granted proficiency, period). So you wouldn't have to use that 1 turn (if you stuck with a base of 6 cha for wf) on weapon prof.

Invalid_86
04-17-2008, 08:18 PM
This headache reminds me why enhancements don't belong in the game, and if we are to be stuck with them Prestige Classes should have absolutely nothing to do with them.