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Mentor
04-07-2008, 02:13 PM
The solution to the issues duscussed in this thread, " http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142666 " is simple, just /sign the pledge below:

The Pledge:

" I will not run or take part in any raid that intentionally causes a known bug that results in the clearly unintended result of the mob taking no actions to defend itself or it becoming unable to attack the group or raid. If I am in a group or raid and the leader insists on using known bugs to exploit the game, I will immediaty leave the raid. If I am running a raid, I will post in the lfm description words to the effect that "No Exploits will be used or allowed." I take this pledge in honor of the spirit of the Grand Dungeon Master, Gary Gygax. "

Mentor

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 02:17 PM
Can you add.

"And I will not use poor AI to give the group more time to regen their mana as this too is an exploit."

Thanks.

Wutinni
04-07-2008, 02:22 PM
LOL

How true. if groups stop doing that they can provide my dwarfs weight in heal scrolls/pots before I even step into the shroud.

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 02:23 PM
Can you add.

"And I will not use poor AI to give the group more time to regen their mana as this too is an exploit."

Thanks.

well said ....'

I can't believe you want to swear in a game designer's name.... honestly...man come on...I don't the cheese either but give me a break

Zaodon
04-07-2008, 02:30 PM
All players already took this "pledge". Its called the "Terms and Conditions" you clicked "Agree" to when you installed DDO.

jjflanigan
04-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Can you add.

"And I will not use poor AI to give the group more time to regen their mana as this too is an exploit."

Thanks.

How is it an exploit to run a mob around while other's regen up? I have 30% striders, and can outrun any of them, so I just shoot at them a bit til they are angry at me then take off running and pling arrows at them from time to time while people regen up.

If they didn't want you to be able to do something like that they would not have placed the regen pools there.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 03:16 PM
How is it an exploit to run a mob around while other's regen up? I have 30% striders, and can outrun any of them, so I just shoot at them a bit til they are angry at me then take off running and pling arrows at them from time to time while people regen up.

If they didn't want you to be able to do something like that they would not have placed the regen pools there.

Im talking about boxing a boss into a corner while someone on the other side of the screen has aggro.

You dont think its an exploit for that boss to be surrounded by people yet not strike at any of them?

I guess he could be so enraged that he is solely focused on one person, but I dont think thats how its supposed
to work.

And as for "if they didnt want you to then they wouldn't..." could be said of anything.

Delt
04-07-2008, 03:22 PM
Silly pledge...and swearing on some recently dead guys name is pretty tasteless.

Besides, part 5 shroud is a stupid fight - parties are 100% assured of a win, the only variable being time and resources...if you are in a party that does it, simply destroy 50 heal scrolls and go afk 30 minutes to simulate doing it the "fair" way. And for the record, this is nothing new - tactic used in a lot of quests and raids (like the abbot). Blame Turbines crappy AI.

EinarMal
04-07-2008, 03:30 PM
Im talking about boxing a boss into a corner while someone on the other side of the screen has aggro.



I am sorry but this is just poor AI, and used in a similar way every time you block a door while the caster firewalls them, or the end boss of stk. There is a fine line apparently between tactics and the "exploit" police that like to show how upstanding they are by posting absurd threads about exploiting.

So the next time you block a door and let the caster grab agro and kill all the mobs while the tanks stand there taking no damage I say "stop you big cheater/exploiter..."

I really need to change my sig "If it's in the game, it's in the game."
-EA Sports

I mean apparently the only way you can play without exploiting poor AI code is to stand there and hit each other.

sigtrent
04-07-2008, 03:37 PM
Personaly I don't care if people exploit so long as it doesn't directly harm me. They can farm all the loot they want and I just don't care.

The only exploits that bother me are the ones that make the quest itslef pointless to do or play in. I want to actualy play the game not sit around while someone does some trick that takes 20 minutes because the party is too weak to actualy fight anything.

Then again if you find clever ways to shortcut quests and it doesn't elave everyone twiddling thier thumbs i'm all for it. I'm also for folks who want to do a quest the old school way and scour the thing clean of every living and destructable entity. Just make sure if you are leading a quest you are clear on if you are aiming to go especialy slow or fast so folks arn't mislead.

moorewr
04-07-2008, 03:42 PM
I mean apparently the only way you can play without exploiting poor AI code is to stand there and hit each other.

Sir, you win the Internet. :)

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 03:43 PM
There is a fine line apparently between tactics and the "exploit" police that like to show how upstanding they are by posting absurd threads about exploiting.

First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 03:51 PM
First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

< 2 big thumbs up > I have no idea how all that get so mad about 1 have no problem with the other.... and I tell ya what if "wall" had to shield block (better DR) I might be able to stomach it a bit nut to just stand there w/ o a shield while the orc or kobold is argo on someone else is cheesy than the pit fiend bug AI problem..... and again guys It's a problem in the AI that has been in the game all the way back form water works ...it's still in the game and it seems like everyone has used it at least once or twice

Ranmaru2
04-07-2008, 03:55 PM
Well they "supposedly" fixed the AI where monsters would attack the shield wall, but I've seen no evidence of it yet... :p

feynman
04-07-2008, 03:56 PM
The solution to the issues duscussed in this thread, " http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142666 " is simple, just /sign the pledge below:

The Pledge:

" I will not run or take part in any raid that intentionally causes a known bug that results in the clearly unintended result of the mob taking no actions to defend itself or it becoming unable to attack the group or raid. If I am in a group or raid and the leader insists on using known bugs to exploit the game, I will immediaty leave the raid. If I am running a raid, I will post in the lfm description words to the effect that "No Exploits will be used or allowed." I take this pledge in honor of the spirit of the Grand Dungeon Master, Gary Gygax. "

Mentor

Do I still get to use both hands, or do I have to tie one behind my back? How about harsh language? Should we maybe pledge not to call the monsters "bastards"? What about touching myself in my no-no zones while I play; is that a gray area? Also, do we have to wear the ruffled pink dress with the bows in our hair, or is this more of a pajama party/teddy bear sort of deal?

Seriously, dude, not my problem.

Oreg
04-07-2008, 03:57 PM
Silly pledge...and swearing on some recently dead guys name is pretty tasteless.

Besides, part 5 shroud is a stupid fight - parties are 100% assured of a win, the only variable being time and resources...if you are in a party that does it, simply destroy 50 heal scrolls and go afk 30 minutes to simulate doing it the "fair" way. And for the record, this is nothing new - tactic used in a lot of quests and raids (like the abbot). Blame Turbines crappy AI.

Enough said. True on both items.

In the case of monster AI, Turbine has the responsibility to correct the issue. They have acknowledged that they will do so. Let it go. Conversation over. If you don't want to be a part of it then ask or make it clear at the beginning so people can choose.

It isn't rocket science. It really is that simple.

Gabrion
04-07-2008, 04:01 PM
Do I still get to use both hands, or do I have to tie one behind my back? How about harsh language? Should we maybe pledge not to call the monsters "bastards"? What about touching myself in my no-no zones while I play; is that a gray area? Also, do we have to wear the ruffled pink dress with the bows in our hair, or is this more of a pajama party/teddy bear sort of deal?

Seriously, dude, not my problem.

/QTF

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 04:02 PM
What about touching myself in my no-no zones while I play; is that a gray area?

No, no this is NOT a gray area.

Just....dont.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 04:04 PM
Enough said. True on both items.

In the case of monster AI, Turbine has the responsibility to correct the issue. They have acknowledged that they will do so. Let it go. Conversation over. If you don't want to be a part of it then ask or make it clear at the beginning so people can choose.

It isn't rocket science. It really is that simple.

Good post.

KoboldKiller
04-07-2008, 04:29 PM
I got blasted as part of a shield wall last night in crucible and no I did not have aggro.

EinarMal
04-07-2008, 04:45 PM
The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

Sorry to quote just you, but it is tiresome to me when people start getting on a soap box (not saying you) and start saying you shouldn't do "X" because that is exploiting mob AI then they go and shield block a door and watch the stupid mobs cook in the firewall and don't hesitate at all.

All I know is the Devs put in collision detection so that mobs can't pass through players, to me that means any kind of surrounding/blocking/walling is part of the game design period. It wouldn't be that hard to add some logic to the mobs to say, path to my target "X" is blocked, attack nearest guy "Y" instead for the next 10 seconds or until dead regardless of agro list.

Maybe they have done some of this I don't know.

Strakeln
04-07-2008, 04:58 PM
Is it bad when a game's forum "community" has the effect of making one want to quit the game?

krud
04-07-2008, 05:04 PM
All I know is the Devs put in collision detection so that mobs can't pass through players, to me that means any kind of surrounding/blocking/walling is part of the game design period. It wouldn't be that hard to add some logic to the mobs to say, path to my target "X" is blocked, attack nearest guy "Y" instead for the next 10 seconds or until dead regardless of agro list.

or even better is to have the mobs just flail away when blocked. Anything within range should get hit, just the same as when we swing at untargetted mobs. It can't be that difficult to figure out.

Amaras
04-07-2008, 05:06 PM
I will pledge not to... wait.. we can do that? *goes off to exploit and get phat lewt*

Westerner
04-07-2008, 05:07 PM
AI Tactic:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be temporarily channeled at a player beyond the mob's effective reach, or at a player equipped to handle that aggro with minimal risk. Examples: Using a puller on Von6 Pillars, Hero method, shield blocking doors.

AI Exploit:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be permanently shut off. Example: "bugging" the Pit Fiend in the Shroud part 5.

Delt
04-07-2008, 05:15 PM
AI Tactic:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be temporarily channeled at a player beyond the mob's effective reach, or at a player equipped to handle that aggro with minimal risk. Examples: Using a puller on Von6 Pillars, Hero method, shield blocking doors.

AI Exploit:
A method by which a mob's aggro can be permanently shut off. Example: "bugging" the Pit Fiend in the Shroud part 5.

Don't bother, people's definition of a tactic and an exploit are always going to vary. By your definition, perching and ranging mobs via terrain so that they can't really hit me back would be Ok - but I know for a fact many people (and many other MMO's) would call that exploitation.

Just play and have fun. If you want to abuse questionable tactics during gameplay, go nuts - really it's the devs job to patch those holes up. Now when you start actively abuses certain facets of the game to achieve clearly unintended results (like tele/trading in a quest, DCing, waiting and gaining items you shouldn't Or manipulate client/server packets, then that is a TOTALLY different issue).

Vhlad
04-07-2008, 06:54 PM
If you stand on a high horse, and wave your finger or call someone out over one specific exploit of the AI, then you should not be embracing other exploits of the AI.

For example. What are you going to do if the pit fiend or some other boss accidently bugs because someone died (or whatever) ? Are you going to just ddoor out? Wouldn't finishing the raid when the boss is bugged be exploiting/ taking advantage of and benefiting from a bug?

How about these examples:

Ghosts getting stuck in part 2. Intended? Is the magic of specific trees holding the spirits? Or is this an issue with AI and pathing?

Shield or body blocking a door and firewalling, so the mob aggros the caster and just runs up against the fighters, not attacking them. This is exploiting the AI.

Kiting a mob in circles while people use the pools to regen SP in part 5. More exploiting the AI.

Splitting up into 2 groups and ranging the pit fiend or demon queen so they switch aggro back and forth and stay in the middle. Again, exploiting the AI.

Boxing the pit fiend in with melee and having casters/rangers draw aggro. Also exploiting the AI.

Kiting mobs and "tricking" them to run into and stand in firewalls, or sphere of dancing, or acid fog, etc. Another example of exploiting buggy/poor AI. A DM in real pnp would not control an intelligent creature like that.

Making the titan stand over the giant crystal laser that kills him, 6 times. Another exploit of ******** AI. In fact IMO Turbine DESIGNS these quests around us manhandling and wrangling the AI.

Sheesh, IMO having fighters even surround the fiend and attack him is exploiting the bad AI. He should beeline toward all the clerics kill them first, as we would do. Maybe we should have all 12 of us stand right up to him so as not to exploit the ******** AI and let him own us?

Bottom Line:
We're playing a game. Trying to have fun. It's not my place to try to "guess" what we are and are not supposed to do. If there is a bug Turbine needs to fix it, or come out and say dont do THIS or you will get banned, and we are watching (and then, after the warning, actually ban people for doing THIS, whatever THIS is). Otherwise I will just play the game I'm given in the most cost effective and efficient way possible, and not make up rules or restrictions to supplement bad AI.

Harncw
04-07-2008, 07:06 PM
I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!:eek:

feynman
04-07-2008, 07:18 PM
I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!:eek:

/signe- wait, what about noobs?

captain1z
04-07-2008, 07:40 PM
Read the pledge

As usual I have no idea what the reason behind it is (Im never up on that kinda stuff)

I play fair as much as possible and but I dont call foul when I can get the AI to do something that will help me... such as getting himself stuck in a hole or in a narrow space so I can gut him safely. Things like standing in a spot that for whatever reason makes me immune to all attacks I cant stomach......... so I guess I walk a gray line..... Im ok with my gray space.

I like a few others in this thread thought swearing on the soul of Gary Gygax was a bit much and left me feeling tainted after reading it.

Swear on dice,your players handbook...... swear to the loot gods and if you break your oath

"may all your vorpals be Viscious"


but gary was a bit much...... just my 2 cents

Lorien_the_First_One
04-07-2008, 09:11 PM
Im talking about boxing a boss into a corner while someone on the other side of the screen has aggro.

You dont think its an exploit for that boss to be surrounded by people yet not strike at any of them?

I guess he could be so enraged that he is solely focused on one person, but I dont think thats how its supposed
to work.

And as for "if they didnt want you to then they wouldn't..." could be said of anything.


Actually the AI throughout the game works that way. Are you suggesting no door blocking tactics either? They take advantage of the same AI weakness and ppl use block and firewall all over the place.

Strakeln
04-07-2008, 09:12 PM
I do solemnly pledge to not let other people tell me how I should play a game!:eek:/signed

captain1z
04-07-2008, 09:41 PM
Actually the AI throughout the game works that way. Are you suggesting no door blocking tactics either? They take advantage of the same AI weakness and ppl use block and firewall all over the place.

If AI could be programmed they way I play my lesser intelligence monsters when I DM, the game would be a bit better.

Its very simple:


- 1st I go after whoever looks most appetizing

- then I go after the one who hurts me

- after all that I just go after whoever is the closest

(example: party walks into a room with a rust monster..... the rust monster chases the warforged but he climbs a ladder out of reach. The rust monster then runs towards the closest armored fighter in the group but gets shot with an arrow by the rogue on the other side of the room. The rust monster, thinking the rogue is trying to steal his tasty meal, charges the rogue.)

Mentor
04-08-2008, 07:00 AM
I appologize if anyone too offense against my mentioning Gary Gygax in the pledge. I was trying to remind people that a real DM would not allow mobs to just stand there, and that we should try as best as we can to stay true to the original spirit of how a real DM would conduct the quest.

I do not feel the blocking of doors is an exploit, the same tactic would be used regardless of the mobs being able to hit the blockers or not. It is a good tactic. Yes the mobs should be able to hit anything in front of them when they swing, just like we do, and when this is fixed, people will still used this tactic, and just heal the blockers more.

The pools seem to me to have been placed there with the intent for getting mana back while the mob(s) are engaged with other people. I see no problem with someone running around kiting the last mob while everyone else stays out of the way. All mobs in all games I have played chase you when you hit them. Surrounding the mob while it has agro on someone else and it does no damage to the people surrounding it, would be exploiting the stupid programming. When mobs are given the same ability as we have to swing and hit anything near them regardless of who they are agroed on, then this won't be an issue.

Mentor

ChildrenofBodom
04-08-2008, 09:45 AM
First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

Gonna have to disagree with you here Bee.

What is the difference between boxing in and running them around?

Here is the difference:

Boxing in - You can go grab a soda and a snack while waiting for others.

Running around - Great, you have to sit here for 10 minutes press W and going in circles, that's real fun.

Which would you prefer? This game is supposed to be about having fun, this game isn't a job.

Noob. :p :D

llevenbaxx
04-08-2008, 09:55 AM
Ive only completed the raid twice and I assume it wasnt an expoit due to the extreme cost to my clr. That said, Ive done it legit, if they expect me to farm the living **** out of a quest to get enough useful items to gether I could care less how it gets done by the fifty forth time... They implimented the mind numbingly boring, not us...

Impaqt
04-08-2008, 10:03 AM
First, I havent created a thread about not exploiting.
Second, Im not saying Im upstanding, far from it in fact.

Here's the deal, if yer DM wouldn't let ya do it then consider it an exploit.

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"
"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, bix one in and let our casters regen while we are a human wall"
"Ok cool, he swings and kills you all then turns on the casters"
"But he's aggro'd on the ranger who's way oevr there!"
"Umm, yeah, but you're standing right in front of him"

The whole point of my post was there are people around here who get very upset with the Big Mans bug, yet have no problem
using bad AI to regen mana to full. If the Devs wanted you to take ten minutes to regen all yer mana Im sure they would
just've put a rest shrine in instead.

First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here.

And let me Fix your Scenario

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"

"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, then Trip, Hold, Grapple, FtS, and otherwise Incapacitate the 4th until the caster can regen his mana int he ppl"

smatt
04-08-2008, 10:10 AM
Enough said. True on both items.

In the case of monster AI, Turbine has the responsibility to correct the issue. They have acknowledged that they will do so. Let it go. Conversation over. If you don't want to be a part of it then ask or make it clear at the beginning so people can choose.

It isn't rocket science. It really is that simple.

I would agree, it's still wrong.. But whatever:p

The over-powering of toons through the proliferation of uber loot, by using questioanble tactics is a game changing problem to be sure. Mostly what boterhs me about it I guess, is that the peole who use such tactics A LOT, then make wild claims about being UBER, about beating this in this time, or about having this many spell points ect etc etc. Just as with items like the skiver which we all know the vast majority of people who actually have them, aquired the tome pages through, lets say "questionable" means. Heck, there's at least one guild who have STACKS stored away that they "obtained" through questionable means, I watched them doing the conga line into the Abbot pre-raid for days on end, so their denial is unwarranted. OK, so now the standard for the power level of Sorcs has risen......

This game despite the fact that much of it is player skill driven, also revolves around equipment. A good example, say your basketball team had awesoem $400 shoes, and your opponents didn't have ny shoes..... Is there an advantage to having those shoes? It doesn't mean that the shoeless Joes will lose the game. But it would certainly give the the OC rich boys a leg up. And you can bet that when the OC rich boys win the game.... The chest thumping shall come very quikly. :eek: Should such a thing bother me, probably not, but it does, and I'd say it likely, just a guess here, bothers many people.

Now whether people exploit or not shouldn't really affect others, and really from an ethical stance I could careless if they do or not. It's like a little white lie really. But it is infact a game changing situation when the Devs have to adjust the game because the stoked out players are beating things to easy. And to deny that the actual abilities of toons is ALL bnased on player ability and not neccesarily also tied to equipment, I'd say is false. At the higher levels DDO is VERY equipment dependent.

So in the end, do I REALLY care if people use exploits over and over... Nawwwwww, does it bother me when they "brag" about accomplishments, that invovled using those exploits, while failing to mention that they used those exploits? YES

smatt
04-08-2008, 10:12 AM
First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here.



Perhaps they haven't seen the post yet :eek:

Or maybe they're chosing to not enforce it, as it seems at least 75&#37; of the groups out there (A MAJOR GUESTIMATE) are using it. Heck, some guilds use it over and over all day long, with no fear of anything happening, and then brag about how uber they are. Maybe they're letting it go till they can fix it.....

bobbryan2
04-08-2008, 10:36 AM
And what about people that just really like to summon monsters for those kinds of fights? They're all exploiters because Turbine happened to make the Pit Fiend suddenly bug out?

It's really hard for me to get behind all this nonsense. I mean, what if Cone of Cold suddenly bugged him out. You'd have tons of people that would immediately say, "Stop using Cone of Cold!" But... Cone of Cold is a valid spell to be using.... the fact that it bugs the Pit Fiend out isn't my fault.

This is on Turbine to fix. It's not like people are coming up with crazy scenarios and carefully manipulating the system in a pattern of events that eventually leads to some exploit happening. People are casting a spell... it's not really an exploit.

The fact is, Turbine has allowed plenty of discussions to continue on what exactly bugs him, AND they've said they'll fix it.

Can't we just leave it at that?

Strakeln
04-08-2008, 10:40 AM
First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here. Sorta off-topic, but related: that's part of the problem with exploits in general. Many fall into a gray area, all are subject to individual interpretation... unless they're willing to risk perma-ban. This thread is a great example of this: some people think taking advantage of dumb AI (boxing in a mob) is an exploit, others do not.

While others are more clear, I can think of silly, RP-based justifications for many exploits: has anyone considered that perhaps ole Harry is ghast-phobic? :D:p

gfunk
04-08-2008, 10:45 AM
Everyone is up in arms about the part 5 exploit, and for the record i believe that it clearly is an exploit.

Much more common is bugging of the lieutenants in part 2. Its so commonly done, that i hadnt really thought of it as an exploit, though after reading this thread and the earlier thread about part 5 I can certainly see how people would think it so. In the past, i had viewed it as simply part of the game, now i am not so sure. How many out there consider this to be an exploit?

It might be nice if someone could post most of the common exploits in the game (or at least what the majority of the player base considers to be an exploit). It might help prevent people becoming guilty by ignorance.

Milolyen
04-08-2008, 11:03 AM
Everyone is up in arms about the part 5 exploit, and for the record i believe that it clearly is an exploit.

Much more common is bugging of the lieutenants in part 2. Its so commonly done, that i hadnt really thought of it as an exploit, though after reading this thread and the earlier thread about part 5 I can certainly see how people would think it so. In the past, i had viewed it as simply part of the game, now i am not so sure. How many out there consider this to be an exploit?

It might be nice if someone could post most of the common exploits in the game (or at least what the majority of the player base considers to be an exploit). It might help prevent people becoming guilty by ignorance.

Only problem is any mentioning of exploits is leaving yourself open for infraction points/permaban. Now with that said I don't go out of my way to ensure things bug but I am not about to drop group/leave raid if they do bug in either part 2 or part 5. That goes double for while the horns are dropping so frequently. Out of the 27 large ingredients I have (other than power cells or supreme shards) 8 of them are horns (which by there admission should not even be in game yet). So while yes I do find bugging part 5 to be cheap and cheesy I will take it to help make up for getting horned almost 1/3rd of the time and sorry the rest of you feel so strongly against it.

Milolyen

Strakeln
04-08-2008, 11:03 AM
It might be nice if someone could post most of the common exploits in the game (or at least what the majority of the player base considers to be an exploit). It might help prevent people becoming guilty by ignorance.Got a spare forum account to burn? :D

(the list would be nice, but it might actually result in all of us seeing ponies and flowers that day)

aldan
04-08-2008, 11:46 AM
Thats not a sploit, but they may be refering to the casting of summon monster to bug out the Pit Fiend, or the fighting of bosses in certain areas to prevent their ghosts from getting back to center. Course I have noticed that monsters just seem to be stopping at random of late. No idea what the trigger is, but it is happening a lot since 6.1.

How did this thread not get locked yet? That is a clear violation of posting exploits. Wow.

And no, i have not used that technique, but very tempted.

gfunk
04-08-2008, 11:59 AM
ahh, i did not realize that it was against the forum rules to post exploits.. too bad you can't do so even when your intentions are good, though i totally understand the reason for not allowing it. Just another example of my ignorance of game/forum etiquette. Still, i think the dev's could be a bit more explicit in precisely what they consider to be exploits, as there seems to be a wide range of interpretation on the matter.

Ranmaru2
04-08-2008, 12:04 PM
How did this thread not get locked yet? That is a clear violation of posting exploits. Wow.

And no, i have not used that technique, but very tempted.

Obviously not an exploit then..it's been 3 days this thread has been up, I think...So that must be evidence enough. Summoning Monsters is not an exploit, and was meant to be a help, but if the AI is going to stay locked on a monster it killed but still thinks is there, then that's the problem with the AI.

Westerner
04-08-2008, 12:11 PM
Much more common is bugging of the lieutenants in part 2. Its so commonly done, that i hadnt really thought of it as an exploit, though after reading this thread and the earlier thread about part 5 I can certainly see how people would think it so. In the past, i had viewed it as simply part of the game, now i am not so sure. How many out there consider this to be an exploit?
I don't consider the common part 2 tactics an exploit. I see it as taking advantage of the terrain and IMO passes the skill/risk threshold to be considered a tactic.

Yaga_Nub
04-08-2008, 12:11 PM
There is a reason that we can summon monsters in this game.

Summoning monsters in the Shroud part 5 is not an exploit.

The Pit Fiend bugging out on summoned monsters is bad AI/coding.

I can't do anything about bad AI/coding.

I will not have my useful spells reduced by 1 because of bad AI/coding.

I will continue to summon monsters in the Shroud part 5.

If you do not want the Pit Fiend to focus on my pet then you know what you should do before it gets to the Pit Fiend.

Impaqt
04-08-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't consider the common part 2 tactics an exploit. I see it as taking advantage of the terrain and IMO passes the skill/risk threshold to be considered a tactic.
ANd Why Exactly shoudl terain have any efect on a Ghost? An Incorpreal?

Westerner
04-08-2008, 12:18 PM
The over-powering of toons through the proliferation of uber loot, by using questioanble tactics is a game changing problem to be sure... This game despite the fact that much of it is player skill driven, also revolves around equipment... But it is infact a game changing situation when the Devs have to adjust the game because the stoked out players are beating things to easy. And to deny that the actual abilities of toons is ALL bnased on player ability and not neccesarily also tied to equipment, I'd say is false. At the higher levels DDO is VERY equipment dependent.
Excellent points.

If the average power level increases due to exploit-obtained equipment, and non-exploiters start being excluded due to being "too gimpy" and the devs start designing quest difficulty around it, then that is everybody's business in the long term.

Vizzini
04-08-2008, 12:22 PM
/notsigned

Westerner
04-08-2008, 12:25 PM
ANd Why Exactly shoudl terain have any efect
(Details removed as a preventive measure)

Lots of things in this game don't make 100&#37; perfect black-and-white sense. IMO, that is too strict a test for branding something an exploit.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-08-2008, 12:33 PM
First, SInce you've Describe this "Exploit" in great detail, its pretty obvious the Devs dont consider it an exploit.. Otherwise, you'd be Permabanned from the Forums here.

And let me Fix your Scenario

"Ok so you port into this room, dead, you come alive and the four bosses are back"

"Ok what we're gonna do is kill three of them, then Trip, Hold, Grapple, FtS, and otherwise Incapacitate the 4th until the caster can regen his mana int he ppl"

Ok, once again, let me explain this to you. I could care less if its an exploit or not. Its a use of poor AI that Im damn sure
Turbine didnt want us to do. Like many an "exploit" in this game. My point is there are people all over this topic calling out
the Big Cheese bug, yet will use poor AI to their benefit.

Tripping, holding, grappling or FtS'ing would all be valid, alas we cant do any of that to names, and its not what we do in The Shroud.

And permabanned?! LOL. Please Impaqt. You and I both see people running around daily that should've been banned long ago.

Poor AI is a problem in any game. If you are all about not using exploits or bugs then take that all the way. If you dont want to
take it all the way then dont belittle me, or any one else, for using poor game design. Something Ive been guilty of in the past.

gfunk
04-08-2008, 12:40 PM
Excellent points.

If the average power level increases due to exploit-obtained equipment, and non-exploiters start being excluded due to being "too gimpy" and the devs start designing quest difficulty around it, then that is everybody's business in the long term.

It would be nice if something were done to balance this. I felt totally gimped in the shroud until i had duel vorpals and duel GCB's (I range in part 4/5, so i haven't needed a silver holy or a good transmuting melee weapon). All of the equipment mentioned is pretty high end stuff for the moderate user. I dont think that a party without a good smattering of these items would do very well in the shroud. In PUG groups that i have been in, i would estimate that a large portion of the reason for poor performance is equipment based rather than player based. Sure, there is the occasional player mistake of running through the center early in part 4 or some slow puzzle solving skills in part 3, but generally I find that by now most people play their characters pretty well and they just suffer from a lack of good gear.

to spell it out:
-Lack of GCB's leads to longer portal beating time, which in turn often leads to a need for greater healing resources.
-Lack of vorpals is pretty disasterous in all parts. (really the only practical melee way to kill devils other than maybe W/P which are even harder to get)
-Lack of DPS due to lower end equipment is super evident in part 4. A 2 round completion of this takes some pretty uber gear in my opinion. I don't think that you can make the arguement that superior player ability generally results in the difference between a 2 and 6 rounder. (though there are always some super blunders that could make the difference).

Ranmaru2
04-08-2008, 12:52 PM
this thread is more proof of how the "E------" word is thrown around on the forums/in this game with/without rationality applied and that the many sided die does not always come up with the same result...PROOF this is not an exploit - This thread is still ticking while the "exploit" has been explained...

Quarion
04-08-2008, 12:56 PM
We've said this before and we'll say it again.

Turbine will not confirm, nor discuss details of specific exploits, at any time. This is, and has always been the policy. It is also against the forum guidelines to communicate any details of any exploit here on the forums or in the game, and can result in a permanent ban from the forum and/or the game.

We will confirm with you this:
When you take advantage of any game bug, minor or major, to specifically gain benefit or quest advancement from the behavior of that bug, you are exploiting, and risk your account being revoked permanently, without refund.

If you are taking part in such activities, you will know. There is no need to ask if you are or not.

Statements like "We will continue taking advantage of this bug, until Turbine confirms that it is an exploit, and not allowed." is not going to get you confirmation of any specific exploit, nor make your activities acceptable. All you need to know is that taking advantage of a bug to gain benefit or advance your quest automatically is not allowed.

Additionally, publicly accusing or attacking others who you suspect of exploiting, whether you use names, or not, is also not acceptable on these forums and will not be tolerated.

I'll refrain from banning people who have violated the rules in this thread, but from this point on we will not be lenient when it comes to discussing exploit activity. It's best just to stay away from the subject from now on.

If you know of a bug or exploit, please be sure to use the "Report Bug" link at the top of this page or on the forum listing. If you suspect someone of exploiting in the game, use the "?" icon to send a report to customer service. These are the only acceptable methods of communicating exploit activity to Turbine.

Thank you,
-Quarion