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artvan_delet
04-07-2008, 11:20 AM
There is no reason why the devs can't patch and fix part 5. This raid is being run and exploited constantly. This should be a top priority. Thanks.

Turial
04-07-2008, 11:22 AM
Whats wrong with part 5?

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 11:23 AM
Since I have not sen any Raid ending Bugs for Shroud 5 *though I could be missing it*

I am assuming he is talking about an exploit

artvan_delet
04-07-2008, 11:25 AM
Join almost any shroud completion pug and find out. You'll find it's a joke.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 11:27 AM
Join almost any shroud completion pug and find out. You'll find it's a joke.

Heard about it...never seen it done..

Cinwulf
04-07-2008, 11:28 AM
I do know the dev's are aware of it and working on a fix. No eta to that fix that I've heard, but I have faith that they are working on it.

Turial
04-07-2008, 11:30 AM
Heard about it...never seen it done..

Same here....Hurray

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:35 AM
The major problem IMHO is that 1 member can force the rest of the party to play along, even if they explicitly state what actions are forbidden.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:38 AM
There is no reason why the devs can't patch and fix part 5. This raid is being run and exploited constantly. This should be a top priority. Thanks.

But I think your a little off on calling this an "exploit". Some of the others, yeah exploits, but this...its not a players fault that the game dosent handle it well.

p.s. also be careful what you ask for, when you get that horn next time and want to trade it for a real ingredient you might wish you had just kept your mouth shut and let things run there course.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:39 AM
The major problem IMHO is that 1 member can force the rest of the party to play along, even if they explicitly state what actions are forbidden.

Making players NOT use everything at there disposal to beat an enemy is NOT cool.

Bombalo
04-07-2008, 11:40 AM
This problem is not exclusive to the shroud...its a problem with the AI in general.

Spectralist
04-07-2008, 11:42 AM
But I think your a little off on calling this an "exploit". Some of the others, yeah exploits, but this...its not a players fault that the game dosent handle it well.

If people are out there doing it intentionally(and they are) it is most definitely exploiting.

I don't really want them to fix it though, the fiend has way too much HP for fighting him legitly to be anything but painfully tedious.

Cinwulf
04-07-2008, 11:42 AM
But I think your a little off on calling this an "exploit". Some of the others, yeah exploits, but this...its not a players fault that the game dosent handle it well.

p.s. also be careful what you ask for, when you get that horn next time and want to trade it for a real ingredient you might wish you had just kept your mouth shut and let things run there course.


Well here's what the devs said in a reply to my inquiry on the subject:


Thanks for reporting this. We're aware of this problem and are working on a fix to it. In the meantime, I'd avoid groups that intend to use this tactic as I'm not sure what Customer Support plans on doing to people exploiting in this way.


Obviously they feel it is an exploit.

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Making players NOT use everything at there disposal to beat an enemy is NOT cool.

Making a fun battle into a 10 minute AFK is NOT cool. Some people are here to have fun while they're playing. If you want to cheat, do it with your guild and not in my guild party.

dior10276
04-07-2008, 11:44 AM
You know they will fix it, it is only a matter of time. They were probably very aware of the situation before you even ran the Shroud.

Just realize what you will be getting when they do, hope you have a cleric to run and fund!!! LOL!!!!

Luthen
04-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Bah... just be smart instead of cheap and use more ranged DPS. :cool:

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:44 AM
If people are out there doing it intentionally(and they are) it is most definitely exploiting.

I don't really want them to fix it though, the fiend has way too much HP for fighting him legitly to be anything but painfully tedious.

It's actually really, really easy.

With the right party.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:45 AM
This problem is not exclusive to the shroud...its a problem with the AI in general.

But you cant fault people for using what they have. I would never tell someone to not use it, when they fix the AI then they fix it, until then, "OH WELL"!

While its not the same, its kinda similar: Ask the Cleric to not use Heal scrolls or the Sorc to stop using Finger or any of the other legit things that characters can use. Its just not the same as the other "exploits". Was the Abbot raid an pre-raid exploit (yes) was the Minos Helm an exploit (yes), were all the "spots" exploits (yes), is this (no).

Rowanheal
04-07-2008, 11:45 AM
It annoys me, frustrates me and makes me pretty angry.

This is a good fight. Balanced parties can do it, heck all rogues seem to be getting it done for goodness sakes... I mean its just silly to do what we are all not talking about.

For a group to be explicit in their inception to not use this, and then to go through 4 parts for an hour together to have some knucklehead ruin it...

I mean seriously... let it go. Grow some character and run it correctly.

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

leafman343
04-07-2008, 11:46 AM
if your talking about the pit fiend bugging out, that can happen even when the party tries not to use any exploits and fight him straight up

artvan_delet
04-07-2008, 11:48 AM
But I think your a little off on calling this an "exploit". Some of the others, yeah exploits, but this...its not a players fault that the game dosent handle it well.

p.s. also be careful what you ask for, when you get that horn next time and want to trade it for a real ingredient you might wish you had just kept your mouth shut and let things run there course.

This is absolutely an exploit when the players plan and do things to make a quest bug. People know the quest doesn't handle it well, and act accordingly.

I've been on exploited part 5's, so I'm not being holier than thou. I just think the playerbase has had plenty of time to prepare, adapt, and get ready for the raid as intended. So, I'd like to see it changed. I know what I'm asking for, I'll keep my horns, and I'd like to see this raid fixed.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:49 AM
Well here's what the devs said in a reply to my inquiry on the subject:



Obviously they feel it is an exploit.

When someone tells me what spells I can cast and when/where I can cast them, we got a problem.

Desteria
04-07-2008, 11:49 AM
If people are out there doing it intentionally(and they are) it is most definitely exploiting.

I don't really want them to fix it though, the fiend has way too much HP for fighting him legitly to be anything but painfully tedious.

Meh I've done the part 5 fight with big red in 2min43sec Timed off of a buff IN a PUG, well 50% was guild and good friends but other half was pug I'd never met before, was a nice blanced gorup soo it doen't have to be that long a fight, heck all 2 of our clerics ended the fight with SP left

Cinwulf
04-07-2008, 11:51 AM
Meh I've done the part 5 fight with big red in 2min43sec Timed off of a buff IN a PUG, well 50% was guild and good friends but other half was pug I'd never met before, was a nice blanced gorup soo it doen't have to be that long a fight, heck all 2 of our clerics ended the fight with SP left


2 min 43 secs? Wow, that's a heavy beat down!

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:51 AM
When someone tells me what spells I can cast and when/where I can cast them, we got a problem.

Well then you have fun with your exploits, hey, what server are you on?

If you're on Argo I'd like to know who you are, so you never make it into our parties.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:53 AM
This one is NOT like the others, to expect people to NOT USE something that WILL help the group because it will make things happen, IS NOT RIGHT!

Rowanheal
04-07-2008, 11:54 AM
When someone tells me what spells I can cast and when/where I can cast them, we got a problem.


Well then you have fun with your exploits, hey, what server are you on?

If you're on Argo I'd like to know who you are, so you never make it into our parties.

Amen, PM me so I know who you are hunny. I don't wanna make you feel uncomfy. :D

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:55 AM
This one is NOT like the others, to expect people to NOT USE something that WILL help the group because it will make things happen, IS NOT RIGHT!

As party leader, the right is reserved to reject a person from joining.

On our guild runs, if you are caught, you don't join another run. Ever.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Well then you have fun with your exploits, hey, what server are you on?

If you're on Argo I'd like to know who you are, so you never make it into our parties.

You dont know me, have you even READ the other posts, why would NOT party with me?

Your telling me its OK that you CANT cast certain spells from an already DISMALLY SMALL spell selection list, because they havent fixed it, IN ALL THIS TIME? Your either joking or are a joke, sorry.

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 11:58 AM
You dont know me, have you even READ the other posts, why would NOT party with me?

Your telling me its OK that you CANT cast certain spells from an already DISMALLY SMALL spell selection list, because they havent fixed it, IN ALL THIS TIME? Your either joking or are a joke, sorry.

Because I've been reading your posts, obviously.

"They haven't fixed it" is not a justification, I'm sorry. You're just trying to rationalize your past actions.

artvan_delet
04-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Prosperpine, Saw your forum join date, and I just wanted to welcome you to DDO if you are new.

Desteria
04-07-2008, 12:00 PM
2 min 43 secs? Wow, that's a heavy beat down!

well note the 2 clerics part means we did have a heaver melle contigent and it did seam every one had good weapons, though i dont think we had a barb in sight, so concevable we were far form MAX dps though we did have 2-3 rangers 2 of wich were twf thast some nice dps, normaly I try and take at elast 2 clerics at elast 1 bard(no bard bring 4 clerics fights will be longer), at least oen caster and at least 5 melle/ranged guys As you can see that leaves room fro some randomness thats 9 of 12 spots other 3 can realyl be what ever though if i onyl have 2 celrics i will want 7 dps to make part4/5 faster becuase i dotn want my clerics haveign to use a tone of scrolls.

funny thing was it was just what we got that day as i said it was half pug AND i had to log of early so wasent goign to wait around for a 3rd celric etc

FoxOne
04-07-2008, 12:01 PM
Tell me geniuses that we have here how you'll feel once they give him an abbott like fix.people have some issues.Pay for my cleric and we'll fight the right way, as it is,gimps make it in there and cost a fortune to heal and of course,NOBODY EVER CONTRIBUTES PLAT.Wanna do it the legit way,fine,fork up for all the scrolls i wasted on you at least so i can break even.Clerics carry the burden in there,nobody else.And don't tell me about your repair bills when 25 heal scrolls cover that and i spammed 100+.whatever.

EDIT Oh And btw,it's not an exploit that they messed up yet another raid,nothing new here...we use what we have and that's it.Do a better job and people won't exploit as easily.Not playerbase fault if they can't get it right after so many messed up quests.Next arraetrikos will receive a blanket immunity to melee and range damage.

Spectralist
04-07-2008, 12:03 PM
Meh I've done the part 5 fight with big red in 2min43sec Timed off of a buff IN a PUG, well 50% was guild and good friends but other half was pug I'd never met before, was a nice blanced gorup soo it doen't have to be that long a fight, heck all 2 of our clerics ended the fight with SP left

Well i consider almost 3 minutes to be rather tedious for one fight. I suppose it's possible they keep the fight interesting for that long, but judging from the other raids i doubt it. I guess i'll find out if they ever fix it.

Proserpine
04-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Because I've been reading your posts, obviously.

"They haven't fixed it" is not a justification, I'm sorry. You're just trying to rationalize your past actions.

Im not trying to rationalize anything. Im using the spells I've been given. PERIOD!



Prosperpine, Saw your forum join date, and I just wanted to welcome you to DDO if you are new.

Thanks. Im new but I have an old mentor.

So, before this turns into anything thats dumb I will quit. Im sorry you people that disagree cant look at things with an open mind, your loss. You know how I feel and agreeing with me is not my objective. Bye

Impaqt
04-07-2008, 12:06 PM
if your talking about the pit fiend bugging out, that can happen even when the party tries not to use any exploits and fight him straight up

There is a way toforce him to Bug though.... THats what we are talking about. and yes. Its an exploit. I have been in one group that tried to do it and failed... If they had succeeded, I would of simply recalled out. There too many shroud runs for me to "Need" the completion.. and they certainly arnet hrd to get into on a cleric.

Borrigain
04-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Making a fun battle into a 10 minute AFK is NOT cool. Some people are here to have fun while they're playing. If you want to cheat, do it with your guild and not in my guild party.

Come on Asp, people do it the "wrong" way because it is NOT a fun battle. It's a chore. Drop his hp by half and add his cronies in there at the same time, now that would be a fun battle. :) As it stands, it just takes too darn long for most pug-type parties to bring him down. The fun lasts about 10 min, then it's a boring slog of resource burning while watching his hp bar barely move.

I've beat him down both ways; dev inspired way is great for 15 min, then I've seen it degenerate into a stress-filled-expletive-laced "why are we bothering" exercise in boredom. Other way, I can go get a beer and a sandwich. Either way, he gets beat. I'll let them masses determine which they like more.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating exploiting, just trying to provide possible reasoning as to why people do it.

:D
Borr.

artvan_delet
04-07-2008, 12:08 PM
FROM FOXONE: Oh And btw,it's not an exploit that they messed up yet another raid,nothing new here...Do a better job and people won't exploit as easily.


Not sure you can reconcile your comment of it not being an exploit and people exploiting it easily. Of course it's an exploit, people just like the easy loot and completion. I run 2 clerics and 1 pally through the shroud, I know it can be expensive. It can also be done inexpensively. But that doesn't mean it otherwise has to be a joke.

juniorpfactors
04-07-2008, 12:09 PM
Fox the fight last no longer than 5:30-6 minutes with a decent party....you cant throw out a 100 heal scrolls in that time..at least I cant...mana....ask your tank to step out for 45 seconds while you use the ponds....no mana issues

we all run a cleric...so we all do our time/$$ it all evens out...its those that dont run a cleric that are not paying their dues.....

and jrp does not exploit it.....its the best. epic battle in the game...sorry for those that dont want to beat it down the entended path

jrp

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 12:09 PM
if your talking about the pit fiend bugging out, that can happen even when the party tries not to use any exploits and fight him straight up

That is different... If the player for no fault of their own did not cause the Bug...

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Come on Asp, people do it the "wrong" way because it is NOT a fun battle. It's a chore. Drop his hp by half and add his cronies in there at the same time, now that would be a fun battle. :) As it stands, it just takes too darn long for most pug-type parties to bring him down. The fun lasts about 10 min, then it's a boring slog of resource burning while watching his hp bar barely move.

I've beat him down both ways; dev inspired way is great for 15 min, then I've seen it degenerate into a stress-filled-expletive-laced "why are we bothering" exercise in boredom. Other way, I can go get a beer and a sandwich. Either way, he gets beat. I'll let them masses determine which they like more.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating exploiting, just trying to provide possible reasoning as to why people do it.

:D
Borr.
Well then it all depends on what you call fun. I consider them both to be fun fights.

For those "stress filled expletive laced why are we bothering" cases....

Get a new party, recall, reform, and give it another shot. You obviously weren't meant to win, this time. It's your fault you didn't bring enough DPS (not Borr, but the theoretical PUG leader).

As a cleric I wouldn't be spending more than I want to. Yeah, I'm sitting on a stack of 85 major pots. Am I going to drink a bunch just to get a sub-par party through the Shroud??

Yeah right.

Rowanheal
04-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Tell me geniuses that we have here how you'll feel once they give him an abbott like fix.people have some issues.Pay for my cleric and we'll fight the right way, as it is,gimps make it in there and cost a fortune to heal and of course,NOBODY EVER CONTRIBUTES PLAT.Wanna do it the legit way,fine,fork up for all the scrolls i wasted on you at least so i can break even.Clerics carry the burden in there,nobody else.And don't tell me about your repair bills when 25 heal scrolls cover that and i spammed 100+.whatever.

The first time I ran this I used a ton of heal scrolls. It was more me being nervous and making sure I didn't let my guys die.

Subsequent runs have yet to make it through the same stack of 100 heal scrolls I pulled out of my backpack after that first run. I do NOT drink mana pots because I am not rich. In fact I think after last nights run I still had mana in part 5...

Its all a balance.

We have some odd builds around but I would never call them gimped. I would call them challenging and fun. DDO is not a cookie cutter world thank goodness.

If you are spamming this many heal scrolls hun, stop. It's your cost, your character.

My guys take care of me generally. They are a good bunch...

I wish you a less frustrating time in this fabulous raid.

That voice over in part 5 I have to say, best in the game so far.

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

Impaqt
04-07-2008, 12:11 PM
Come on Asp, people do it the "wrong" way because it is NOT a fun battle. It's a chore. Drop his hp by half and add his cronies in there at the same time, now that would be a fun battle. :) As it stands, it just takes too darn long for most pug-type parties to bring him down. The fun lasts about 10 min, then it's a boring slog of resource burning while watching his hp bar barely move.

I've beat him down both ways; dev inspired way is great for 15 min, then I've seen it degenerate into a stress-filled-expletive-laced "why are we bothering" exercise in boredom. Other way, I can go get a beer and a sandwich. Either way, he gets beat. I'll let them masses determine which they like more.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating exploiting, just trying to provide possible reasoning as to why people do it.

:D
Borr.

In a Well assembled party, he doesnt take mor ethan 10 Minutes anymore.... Without the Exploit. If your groups are taking longer, they need to upgrade their Weapons.... FOr Cryin out loud, at least get a Transmuter....

juniorpfactors
04-07-2008, 12:11 PM
Tell me geniuses that we have here how you'll feel once they give him an abbott like fix.people have some issues.Pay for my cleric and we'll fight the right way, as it is,gimps make it in there and cost a fortune to heal and of course,NOBODY EVER CONTRIBUTES PLAT.Wanna do it the legit way,fine,fork up for all the scrolls i wasted on you at least so i can break even.Clerics carry the burden in there,nobody else.And don't tell me about your repair bills when 25 heal scrolls cover that and i spammed 100+.whatever.

EDIT Oh And btw,it's not an exploit that they messed up yet another raid,nothing new here...we use what we have and that's it.Do a better job and people won't exploit as easily.Not playerbase fault if they can't get it right after so many messed up quests.Next arraetrikos will receive a blanket immunity to melee and range damage.

Fox the fight last no longer than 5:30-6 minutes with a decent party....you cant throw out a 100 heal scrolls in that time..at least I cant...mana....ask your tank to step out for 45 seconds while you use the ponds....no mana issues

we all run a cleric...so we all do our time/$$ it all evens out...its those that dont run a cleric that are not paying their dues.....

and jrp does not exploit it.....its the best. epic battle in the game...sorry for those that dont want to beat it down the entended path


this is a great raid..we run completion nightly with ease ...come on its not hard...on hard or elite..heck ya...its tough thats why its fun.

1 round of bard buffs and he is dead.....
jrp

Impaqt
04-07-2008, 12:14 PM
I have 3 Shroud Ready Clerics... I complete almost every day on one of em.... I havnet used a Mnemonic pot in a long time and use an average of 35-40 Heal Scrolls....

ANd I usually take care of 2 Tanks at a time.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 12:20 PM
When someone tells me what spells I can cast and when/where I can cast them, we got a problem.

Though I don't know If turbine has right out and said it is an exploit.. *they don't talk about exploits, which causes these kind of arguments*, But if turbine does think of it as an exploit you can complain about it as much as you want but in the end it is up to them, and those using the exploit, if they so decided, could be punished. Some exploits they have punished severely... some they have not.

Just a warning, so you know.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 12:20 PM
This problem is not exclusive to the shroud...its a problem with the AI in general.

And has been for quite a while.

OP, tell me, do you regen yer mana in Pt5? Or do you say thats an exploit too, telling yer group to hurry and regen cause this guys about to die?

Ive heard a lotta folks complain about the Big Guy exploit, no one mentions keeping a boss alive...

akla_thornfist
04-07-2008, 12:26 PM
people are still useing this exploit was in a pug shroud few days ago leader says we are bugging im like why we can beat this guy no problem hell we had 3 clerics, i finished the quest with them sent a tell to leader saying put me on his do not group list as i was putting him on mine. part 5 is easy now use the pools makes all the differance

stockwizard5
04-07-2008, 12:31 PM
Camp A: There is no such thing as an exploit (we know your vote already)

Camp B: There are exploits and this is one (most of the community)

Camp C: There are exploits and this is not one (undefendable)

Taking actions specifically designed to break game mechanics is the definition of an exploit.

Sambvca
04-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Camp A: There is no such thing as an exploit (we know your vote already)

Camp B: There are exploits and this is one (most of the community)

Camp C: There are exploits and this is not one (undefendable)

Taking actions specifically designed to break game mechanics is the definition of an exploit.

Let's just say I have my acid greensteel sword hotkeyed to "Insert" and my Transmuter hotkeyed to "delete". I try to switch to the transmuter, but I hit "insert" instead, casting an elemental.

Camp D: The game's broken

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Let's just say I have my acid greensteel sword hotkeyed to "Insert" and my Transmuter hotkeyed to "delete". I try to switch to the transmuter, but I hit "insert" instead, casting an elemental.

Camp D: The game's broken

Accidents are one thing, doing it on purpose is another. ;)

It does happen on accident, too.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 12:56 PM
One more thing I would like to add to this..

Unless turbine threatens to punish those using this exploit *which I am unsure they will*

The ones using it have no reason to stop using it.

Borrigain
04-07-2008, 01:07 PM
Asp and Impact, my point isn't about party make up, it's about human attention span. Why do people "choose" to try to bug him instead of straight up fight? For the average player.....it does take too long, which equates to burned resources that they don't have to begin with.

I'm not asking for an "easy" button, and I'm not defending the "doer's of the unintended way". And yes, we beat him down in 10 or so with a decent party. Point is, there's no reason for him to have sooooooo many hp. It's dragging out the inevitable.

3 min or 10 min, a good party is going to win quick either way. So why does he need a bajillion hp? To make not-so-uber groups suffer? What purpose does that serve? Bottom line, if he don't wipe you in the first 5 min, he ain't gonna. An ok party should not have to suffer it out so long. That is why they use the exploit. If it was reaver-like or Velah-like in how long you "beat" on him, you wouldn't see so much bugging. Everyone could be involved for 10-15 min and it's either gonna succeed or wipe in that time.

To address the "upgrade your stuff" comment, equipment should not define success, tactics should. It should help you succeed faster, not be a requirement. After all, when you take away the ability of the casual player to enjoy the experience, you're gonna lose that player. The idea of "you NEED this make-up or these certain weapons" to be viable WILL BE the death-knell of this game. Mark my words. Because with the current trend, what do you think the end boss will look like at level 20? Immune to everything except tier-3 shroud weapons? That doesn't bode well for the guy who pays just as much as grinders, but doesn't get to participate in the experience.

Again, I'm not defending exploiting, I'm trying to give the dev's a head's up as to WHY people would use that technique as #1. So they can design around having people choose to use it.

I think part of the problem is that people don't want to "battle" for that long. Some do, most do not. All I'm sayin is that if and when they bug-fix him, drop the hp some (maybe not on elite but on norm for Pete's sake), and then people won't go searching for exploits, they won't need to.

Borr.

Turial
04-07-2008, 01:15 PM
One more thing I would like to add to this..

Unless turbine threatens to punish those using this exploit *which I am unsure they will*

The ones using it have no reason to stop using it.

Thats the thing...uneven use of punishment has made possible exploits harder to determine.

Example: I always thought the old dragon base method was cheezy and eventually it was changed so that it couldnt be done...yet it existed for almost 4 ish mods and no one was banned for doing it.

Pellegro
04-07-2008, 01:20 PM
Asp and Impact, my point isn't about party make up, it's about human attention span. Why do people "choose" to try to bug him instead of straight up fight? For the average player.....it does take too long, which equates to burned resources that they don't have to begin with.

My recollection is that players were pushing pretty hard for a long, epic raid end-fight.

The fact that it takes resources and resource management is what makes it difficult.

I'm not sure what alternative you'd propose? If you cut the Pit Fiend's HP in half, you've taken a moderately challenging end fight for an unprepared group and transformed it into a cakewalk for most anyone.

Torilin
04-07-2008, 01:20 PM
If people are out there doing it intentionally(and they are) it is most definitely exploiting.

I don't really want them to fix it though, the fiend has way too much HP for fighting him legitly to be anything but painfully tedious.

Im not sure what the big deal is with fighting the Fiend straight up, the group I run with which usually includes a few pugs beats the shroud on a nightly basis, currently we kill the fiend in 6 min or less in part 5. Just have to have the right strategy.

Stop exploiting the game.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 01:24 PM
One more thing I would like to add to this..

Unless turbine threatens to punish those using this exploit *which I am unsure they will*

The ones using it have no reason to stop using it.

Im not too sure how Turbine is going to punish people for this when they gave all those
with VON1 greataxes a public slap on the wrist.

Or how about all those with two deathnips due to exploiting?

Or how about those with all the Abbott raid loot?

Or...

Or...

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 01:29 PM
well allow me to give my thoughts

as a player that is running 8 lvl 16 toons through the shroud (1 cleric 2 casters 1 rogue 4 melee's btw)

the "exploit" is cheese, and it's not limited to the the pit fiend or part 5 (seen it happend in part 4, seen it happened with all the bosses in part 2, and mobs in a lot of instances) the AI can get "tricked" or hung up on something for lots of mobs in this game.... fixing this is no small matter I bet.

as far as those that use it ..... I prefer grps not to use it (did a pug run this moring that didn't need to use it and we didn't) seen way to many grps use this method though....and in some cases for those grps that was the only way they could of gotten a win

the shroud IMO is a big learning curve

part 1 is a no brainer (still seen grps fail, and the are smooth part1 runs and rocky ones)

part 2 (here's where the gap starts getting bigger) for a lot of high end content junkies this is only a 5 min stop ... in fact I hate when this part takes more than 8 min, or 10 if we have more than 2 first timers...but for a lot og grps this is a nightmare, near wipes killing the troll or orc maybe as many as 3 times ...it's nuts (when I find myself in a grp that won;t foolow my lead and part 2 is like that , I don't do part 4)

part3 still hard for many grps believe it or not, a buddy from legion made the comment to me once that he hadn't seen the wall spawn in a while.... my comment to him was you don't pug enough

part4 here's the bench mark for your shroud grps ....the best geared and comprised parties can drop him in 1-2 runs , 3 runs would a pretty decent party and should be your benchmark for a really good grp/run( and will have no problem w/ part 5), 4 runs for the avg to just above avg(you can move on to 5 but I bet it could be a little pricy to your cleric's) , it takes 5 or 6 runs is bad but it you waste a cake still doable( but you have no reason to even try part 5) ...more than that pack it in.... you need a good combo (and there is more than one combo that can/will/does work) of DPS, Healing, toons that can take a beating or avoid a beating... but here's the funning thing lots of grps can do part4 now w/ 2 clerics ...no scrolls and mana left...you see we learned what not to do and what to do, and honestly it's easier to heal 2-3 tanks than 6 at the same time ...

part 5 if you use cheese your never going to learn how to beat him, and it's not hard top btw.... but for many grps right now it's the only way to beat him...casue they haven;t learned enough or have the right weapons to hit the pit fiend...when we all have tier 3 upgrades on all our gear it will be a joke

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Im not too sure how Turbine is going to punish people for this when they gave all those
with VON1 greataxes a public slap on the wrist.

Or how about all those with two deathnips due to exploiting?

Or how about those with all the Abbott raid loot?

Or...

Or...


Of course then you have thos that got banned for using the timer Queen exploit...just as one example..

Turbine is not very consistent with thier actions on exploits...

therefore people do not feel fear in doing it..

Spectralist
04-07-2008, 01:41 PM
Im not sure what the big deal is with fighting the Fiend straight up, the group I run with which usually includes a few pugs beats the shroud on a nightly basis, currently we kill the fiend in 6 min or less in part 5. Just have to have the right strategy.

Stop exploiting the game.

I didn't say it was difficult, i said it was tedious. The difference is very important. One is good, preferably in moderation, the other is never, ever, a good thing. And the 6 minutes you mention is just way too long.

Beating on something for long periods of time will almost always be tedious. But at least when you bug him out you can go afk and get a drink while auto attack does the work.

Zaodon
04-07-2008, 01:47 PM
Its not an exploit, its just a bug.
Just because a bug exists, that doesn't make it an exploit.

maddmatt70
04-07-2008, 01:58 PM
Asp and Impact, my point isn't about party make up, it's about human attention span. Why do people "choose" to try to bug him instead of straight up fight? For the average player.....it does take too long, which equates to burned resources that they don't have to begin with.

I'm not asking for an "easy" button, and I'm not defending the "doer's of the unintended way". And yes, we beat him down in 10 or so with a decent party. Point is, there's no reason for him to have sooooooo many hp. It's dragging out the inevitable.

3 min or 10 min, a good party is going to win quick either way. So why does he need a bajillion hp? To make not-so-uber groups suffer? What purpose does that serve? Bottom line, if he don't wipe you in the first 5 min, he ain't gonna. An ok party should not have to suffer it out so long. That is why they use the exploit. If it was reaver-like or Velah-like in how long you "beat" on him, you wouldn't see so much bugging. Everyone could be involved for 10-15 min and it's either gonna succeed or wipe in that time.

To address the "upgrade your stuff" comment, equipment should not define success, tactics should. It should help you succeed faster, not be a requirement. After all, when you take away the ability of the casual player to enjoy the experience, you're gonna lose that player. The idea of "you NEED this make-up or these certain weapons" to be viable WILL BE the death-knell of this game. Mark my words. Because with the current trend, what do you think the end boss will look like at level 20? Immune to everything except tier-3 shroud weapons? That doesn't bode well for the guy who pays just as much as grinders, but doesn't get to participate in the experience.

Again, I'm not defending exploiting, I'm trying to give the dev's a head's up as to WHY people would use that technique as #1. So they can design around having people choose to use it.

I think part of the problem is that people don't want to "battle" for that long. Some do, most do not. All I'm sayin is that if and when they bug-fix him, drop the hp some (maybe not on elite but on norm for Pete's sake), and then people won't go searching for exploits, they won't need to.

Borr.

Yeah maybe the "non uber group" shouldn't be running the raid to completion which could be the way the devs intended what with 5 parts with any point that you can stop at. The reality though is with experience with the raid you don't have to be an "uber group" to beat the raid and only use limited resources.

Like aspenor if I catch you performing an exploit in a raid and not stopping when asked to stop you will not be back and in fact I probably will kick you from group right then and there if I am the leader. What is more is this reflects badly on the guild of the exploiter and I will likely not accept a join request from another member of that guild in a future raid. I had heard that one guild had done the exploit in a raid that a friend of mine was in. We were in a different run led by a friend of mine and a member of that same guild started doing the cheese - we yelled at him to stop and he did comply. This last week a member of that guild asked to join my raid and I declined him outright. I detest cheese.

Accelerando
04-07-2008, 02:04 PM
As party leader, the right is reserved to reject a person from joining.

On our guild runs, if you are caught, you don't join another run. Ever.

With that attitude who the hell would want to be in your parties. Take a chill pill man.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 02:06 PM
Yeah maybe the "non uber group" shouldn't be running the raid to completion which could be the way the devs intended what with 5 parts with any point that you can stop at. The reality though is with experience with the raid you don't have to be an "uber group" to beat the raid and only use limited resources.

Like aspenor if I catch you performing an exploit in a raid and not stopping when asked to stop you will not be back and in fact I probably will kick you from group right then and there if I am the leader. What is more is this reflects badly on the guild of the exploiter and I will likely not accept a join request from another member of that guild in a future raid. I had heard that one guild had done the exploit in a raid that a friend of mine was in. We were in a different run led by a friend of mine and a member of that same guild started doing the cheese - we yelled at him to stop and he did comply. This last week a member of that guild asked to join my raid and I declined him outright. I detest cheese.

Yawn. Borrigain is right.

Shyver
04-07-2008, 02:07 PM
Its not an exploit, its just a bug.
Just because a bug exists, that doesn't make it an exploit.

But using the bug to break the mechanics of the game on purpose is an exploit.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 02:07 PM
Its not an exploit, its just a bug.
Just because a bug exists, that doesn't make it an exploit.

Lets not fool ourselves here.

Its an exploit to use something that isn't meant to happen.

Borrigain
04-07-2008, 02:12 PM
My recollection is that players were pushing pretty hard for a long, epic raid end-fight.

The fact that it takes resources and resource management is what makes it difficult.

I'm not sure what alternative you'd propose? If you cut the Pit Fiend's HP in half, you've taken a moderately challenging end fight for an unprepared group and transformed it into a cakewalk for most anyone.

Long and epic overall, yes, but Spectralist put it in once sentence that took me 2 paragraphs....lol


I didn't say it was difficult, i said it was tedious. The difference is very important. One is good, preferably in moderation, the other is never, ever, a good thing. And the 6 minutes you mention is just way too long.

Beating on something for long periods of time will almost always be tedious. But at least when you bug him out you can go afk and get a drink while auto attack does the work.

That's the point I'm trying to make, human attention span is always affected by "tedious".

And no, I just threw 1/2 out there, I'm sure the dev's would find a more acceptable balance. Like part 4 is perfect amount of hp. A super-group can do him in 1 or 2, a mod balance in 3 or 4, and a not so uber group in heaven forbid, 5 or 6 passes. He's still doable (and can still wipe the party) but can still pose a challenge for the regular guy. For the uber-leetz, do him on hard or elite.

Maybe if they just added 25% to his hp from part 4 on norm 50% on hard, 100% elite. And put the mini-bosses in at the same time. That could provides the "challenge" that some are looking for. Heck, up his damage output or something. I'm just saying that by giving him a bajillion hp is "not" the answer for challenge. Because after you've done it a couple of times the "right" way; when the tedium of the task sets in, human nature is such that we will look for a way around the ensuing boredom. Thus, "why not" bug him and go make a sammich? :D

(Actually, my beef is not even with the Pit Fiend, it's more got to do with how the dev's decide to make something "challenging". Blanket immunities and over-inflated hp are NOT the answer. Add a raid area that has a Null-magic field or something that negates magic weapons. Uh-oh, now there's a challenge, better use tactics :))

As it stands, it's almost like we're moving toward what DDO was trying to avoid with WoW and their raid bosses.

Borr.

Vorn
04-07-2008, 02:14 PM
My cleric likes questing with her loyal battle cat at her side. She likes summoning hordes of undead to do her bidding. But, because the big bad evil guy likes an audience and will start monologing....:p

Between this and Twilight Forge bypasses....:(

Please make smarter super-genius monster A/I and better quest mechanics.

TYVM.
:)

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 02:15 PM
Yeah maybe the "non uber group" shouldn't be running the raid to completion which could be the way the devs intended what with 5 parts with any point that you can stop at.
well there's a lot wrong w/ that statement....and I would hope that the dev's make the content for all to enjoy not just the "power gamer" (btw I'm a "power gamer" this game would be terrible if it only listened to what I wanted or needed)

The reality though is with experience with the raid you don't have to be an "uber group" to beat the raid and only use limited resources.
that's true but far too few have the needed experience

Like aspenor if I catch you performing an exploit in a raid and not stopping when asked to stop you will not be back and in fact I probably will kick you from group right then and there if I am the leader.
how are you going to kick someone in a dungeon? you do know you can't do that right? What is more is this reflects badly on the guild of the exploiter and I will likely not accept a join request from another member of that guild in a future raid.
which makes all kinds of good sense, we should all be punished for the sins of our brothers and fathers right??? honestly that is the craziest I have ever heard
I had heard that one guild had done the exploit in a raid that a friend of mine was in. We were in a different run led by a friend of mine and a member of that same guild started doing the cheese - we yelled at him to stop and he did comply. This last week a member of that guild asked to join my raid and I declined him outright.
boasting about said behavior makes a lot of sense
I detest cheese.
me as well but there is no reason to act in such a way
my comments and thoughts in red

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 02:19 PM
Yeah maybe the "non uber group" shouldn't be running the raid to completion which could be the way the devs intended what with 5 parts with any point that you can stop at. The reality though is with experience with the raid you don't have to be an "uber group" to beat the raid and only use limited resources.

Like aspenor if I catch you performing an exploit in a raid and not stopping when asked to stop you will not be back and in fact I probably will kick you from group right then and there if I am the leader. What is more is this reflects badly on the guild of the exploiter and I will likely not accept a join request from another member of that guild in a future raid. I had heard that one guild had done the exploit in a raid that a friend of mine was in. We were in a different run led by a friend of mine and a member of that same guild started doing the cheese - we yelled at him to stop and he did comply. This last week a member of that guild asked to join my raid and I declined him outright. I detest cheese.
Exactly.

With that attitude who the hell would want to be in your parties. Take a chill pill man.
Chill pill? As raid leader you have the right to decide your group's tactics. If somebody decides to go directly against the rules set in place, they deserve to be ostracized by those that set up those rules.

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 02:19 PM
Between this and Twilight Forge bypasses....:(

Please make smarter super-genius monster A/I and better quest mechanics.

TYVM.
:)


the forge by pass realling ****es me off..... casue for the longest time I couldn't get the favor for that dam thing, thank god most people just run it now.....

Westerner
04-07-2008, 02:23 PM
Like part 4 is perfect amount of hp. A super-group can do him in 1 or 2, a mod balance in 3 or 4, and a not so uber group in heaven forbid, 5 or 6 passes. He's still doable (and can still wipe the party) but can still pose a challenge for the regular guy. For the uber-leetz, do him on hard or elite.
I agree, I think the Pit Fiend in part 4 is a nicely balanced challenge.

moops
04-07-2008, 02:24 PM
I would like to see this fixed one way or the other just so people don't argue about it anymore--I have friends on both sides of the fence here--though the non "exploiters" are a really tiny minority. . .Would like to be able to invite everybody to group without nasty/provacative comments when part 5 rolls around.

I see people really getting nasty about this on this thread--Leaders/Officers of Guilds--And I wonder, do you know what everyone in your guild does?

For instance, I pug the Shroud alot ( 2 clerics, 1 Ranger, 1 Fighter) and so far there has only been one group--which was mostly composed of 1 Guild, that didn't use this tactic--Some of the Officers/Members openly criticize others in their bios, party chat, and general chat about this strat--BUT, many of this Guilds members are going out in PUG shrouds and advocating this very strategy. I have seen members of just about every guild on my Server advocating this strategy--though to be sure, I am sure there are some Guilds that never pug.

Some of you may say that you don't want these people in your guild then, but, I think that it would be sad to feel that way over one philosophical disagreement, to alienate someone you respect otherwise with extremely negative comments about this part 5 tactic.

I suppose if this is fixed, then part 2 should be fixed too. The bosses shouldn't bug. Though a few people I know have the theory that a few of the Bosses are glad to be free, and that is why they don't return to fight for the Man.

1 Pass in Part 4?
I've been in some pretty uber groups, and have never seen him go down in 1 round, 2 yes, but never 1. Something to look forward too.

Also the 2:43 beat down in part 5, did that happen b4 they changed his AI, when he used to just stay in one area if you controlled his aggro instead of constantly porting no matter how many tanks you have on him?

Wulf_Ratbane
04-07-2008, 02:30 PM
Its not an exploit, its just a bug.
Just because a bug exists, that doesn't make it an exploit.

Exploiting a bug makes it an exploit.

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 02:36 PM
Exploiting a bug makes it an exploit.

This is the most accurate definition I have seen, ever. Well done.

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 02:39 PM
I would like to see this fixed one way or the other just so people don't argue about it anymore--I have friends on both sides of the fence here--though the non "exploiters" are a really tiny minority. . .Would like to be able to invite everybody to group without nasty/provacative comments when part 5 rolls around.
I agree tottaly ..... but I don't think this is a quick fix, it's not a Pit fiend fix as much as a AI fix



I suppose if this is fixed, then part 2 should be fixed too. The bosses shouldn't bug. Though a few people I know have the theory that a few of the Bosses are glad to be free, and that is why they don't return to fight for the Man.
yeah I don;t think this is bugged either, there are symbols on those trees aren;t they, I feel they mean somthing, but who's knows

1 Pass in Part 4?
I've been in some pretty uber groups, and have never seen him go down in 1 round, 2 yes, but never 1. Something to look forward too.
was awesome to see (seen it happend twice, and w/ 2 different grps <although 4 of the same people besides me>) a handfull of triple raged barbs using the right weapons(both 2handed barbs, and 2 Weapon barbs) and casters using mana right off the bat, it's neat to see the bar go down that fast

?

for the 1 pass you need the right grp..... I would bet on any one of the servers there are maybe less than 30 players(on that server) that could be part of the makeup that could pull it off

Crarites
04-07-2008, 02:50 PM
--> Mod released. exploit discovered.
Some players use exploit and advanced characters power quickly using exploit.
Some players choose not to use exploit or do not know it and advance characters power slowly.
Exploit fixed.
Players who used exploit find fixed mod much easier to complete and continue accumulating power.
Players who chose not to exploit continue advancing chracters power at slower rate.
--> Mod released. exploit discovered. Repeat.



Just as an observation it seems getting into the exploit cycle early gives players a significant advantage later on.
Kind of like a 401k. This is just my observation, opinions may vary.
*Disclaimer - This post is not intended to promote exploiting.

Turial
04-07-2008, 02:53 PM
I would like to see this fixed one way or the other just so people don't argue about it anymore--I have friends on both sides of the fence here--though the non "exploiters" are a really tiny minority. . .Would like to be able to invite everybody to group without nasty/provacative comments when part 5 rolls around.

I see people really getting nasty about this on this thread--Leaders/Officers of Guilds--And I wonder, do you know what everyone in your guild does?


Personally I don't know what members of my guild do in a quest other then when they are with me. I like to assume and
do assume that they follow the lead of the group leader and make their own choices regarding exploits. I could try to put my foot down about it and have in the past but it causes issues that would only really come up if they did such things in a group that I am leading.

In the end I trust them. Thats my policy.

Turial
04-07-2008, 02:55 PM
--> Mod released. exploit discovered.
Some players use exploit and advanced characters power quickly using exploit.
Some players choose not to use exploit or do not know it and advance characters power slowly.
Exploit fixed. Random punishment of player base.
Players who used exploit find fixed mod much easier to complete and continue accumulating power.
Players who chose not to exploit continue advancing chracters power at slower rate.
--> Mod released. exploit discovered. Repeat.



Just as an observation it seems getting into the exploit cycle early gives players a significant advantage later on.
Kind of like a 401k. This is just my observation, opinions may vary.
*Disclaimer - This post is not intended to promote exploiting.

mmmm game theory at its finest. Part in red added to highlight the relavance to game theory.

dragonofsteel2
04-07-2008, 02:57 PM
I do agree it needs fix, but no one is using a exploit here. It's a bug no one going outside the game rules to cause this bug to happen. I am tired of seeing it though, it does take the fun out the fifth part and is helping groups that might not been able to complete this part.


the "exploit" is cheese, and it's not limited to the the pit fiend or part 5 (seen it happened in part 4, seen it happened with all the bosses in part 2, and mobs in a lot of instances) the AI can get "tricked" or hung up on something for lots of mobs in this game.... fixing this is no small matter I bet.

Yes using this tactic to cause the bug is cheese, but again this is not a exploit sorry they not breaking any game rules by jumping some were not suppose to be allowed, this tactic is allowed by game rules so it not a exploit it's just a bug that needs fix.


Lets not fool ourselves here.

Its an exploit to use something that isn't meant to happen.

Let use not fool ourselves here if I tell you that fireballs ok to use and you go to use that spell for some reason the mobs stand and lets you beat on him is not a exploit, there was nothing that you have done outside the game rules. Is it cheesy and not much fun. The answer would be yes. Does the bug need to be fix, yes. The difference to me from a exploit and a bug is simple. Exploit going outside the game rules to cause the dungeons or raids to be easier. A bug is using game rules and the AI or whatever is not responding proper.

So lets take this from different angle that does not happen, lets say if hit the guy with a sword stands there like a moron, is this a exploit to? See were I am going here. Alt f4 on the dragon was more of a exploit then this was. That is going outside of game rules to create a benefit to the group. (exploit) Here another example, remember the trolls in Trial by Fire ran away if u hit the door with a fireball, is that exploit since they jump down the fire pit when did this? Sorry get your facts straight because there is a ER made when releasing material does not make it a exploit.

Yes we beat the pit fiend easy without this goofy bug.


Exploiting a bug makes it an exploit.

If they using this tatic just to bug him, yes that would be a exploit. Although still does not make what is going on in there a exploit. That is a bug plain and simple.

Inkblack
04-07-2008, 03:01 PM
This reminds me of the blue threads of early December:

Casual mention in forums.
More and more threads about it that slowly get more and more specific.
Zero acknowledgment from Turbine.


I wonder if it will continue to the full progression of the past:

More and more heated threads.
Forum users flaming and reporting each other.
Multiple forum bans handed out.
Just as things start to go completely out of control, Turbine customer service finally acknowledges (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1463490#post1463490) the (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1463167&postcount=38) issue (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1463649#post1463649).
Four days later, a patch is issued.

I sincerely hope the same thing doesn't happen.

Ink

brshelton
04-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Or how about all those with two deathnips due to exploiting?

those arent ALL from exploiting ya know?

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 03:05 PM
--> Mod released. exploit discovered.
Some players use exploit and advanced characters power quickly using exploit.
Some players choose not to use exploit or do not know it and advance characters power slowly.
Exploit fixed.
Players who used exploit find fixed mod much easier to complete and continue accumulating power.
Players who chose not to exploit continue advancing chracters power at slower rate.
--> Mod released. exploit discovered. Repeat.



Just as an observation it seems getting into the exploit cycle early gives players a significant advantage later on.
Kind of like a 401k. This is just my observation, opinions may vary.
*Disclaimer - This post is not intended to promote exploiting.
I tottaly disagree with this is this case becasue
the first ones to beat this raid didn't get anything but a broken timer
you have to collect ingred to make anything and at first the people that blew through this raid wasted ingred trying to firgue out what did what...so they didn;t get any more power
hoenstly if anything the "slower" players got more bang for their buck....thay didn't waste any ingreds

Turial
04-07-2008, 03:06 PM
Let use not fool ourselves here if I tell you that fireballs ok to use and you go to use that spell for some reason the mobs stand and lets you beat on him is not a exploit, there was nothing that you have done outside the game rules. Is it cheesy and not much fun. The answer would be yes. Does the bug need to be fix, yes. The difference to me from a exploit and a bug is simple. Exploit going outside the game rules to cause the dungeons or raids to be easier. A bug is using game rules and the AI or whatever is not responding proper.


If they using this tatic just to bug him, yes that would be a exploit. Although still does not make what is going on in there a exploit. That is a bug plain and simple.

Bug yes, Using that bug to avoid the purpose of the quest is an exploit, if you knowingly do it. Though in the end its all turbines call.

I could say that killing gnolls isnt an exploit in quest A but if turbine thinks it is then I am SOL if they decided to do something about it.

FoxOne
04-07-2008, 03:07 PM
Lets not fool ourselves here.

Its an exploit to use something that isn't meant to happen.

Whose fault is it but turbine?Stop friggin blaming the player base for a poor dev team that can't think 24 hours ahead.Who designed it?Not us so if you have to complain,complain for the real problem and that is not people exploiting,that is terrible QA from Turdine.They never learn,every raid is messed up,bugged or exploited and yet every time another comes the same or similar problems arise.Let's stop kidding ourselves and being trolls and see things for what they are.Very poor implementation.

If it was a bug like in the titan where a certain spell lvl being cast prevents the blue wall from dropping,hey they couldn't code it to react to spells they hadn't invented or created yet.Could this be prevented?yes.Is it our fault?nope.

Crarites
04-07-2008, 03:08 PM
mmmm game theory at its finest. Part in red added to highlight the relavance to game theory.

I'm of the opinion personally that if only a small portion of the player base were using the exploit in question then punishments would be meted out. This changes significantly as you add more and more people. If a large number of people are exploiting then there is likely to be no punishment but just a removal of the exploit. To me its just the reality of the situation. Does anyone seriously expect Turbine to punish 60-70% of its player base?

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 03:08 PM
those arent ALL from exploiting ya know?

brshelton, read what you quoted bro.

Let me rewrite what you quoted;

Or how about those people with two deathnips due to exploiting?

People with two deathnips because they exploit most certain are ALL from exploiting.

brshelton
04-07-2008, 03:12 PM
brshelton, read what you quoted bro.

Let me rewrite what you quoted;

Or how about those people with two deathnips due to exploiting?

People with two deathnips because they exploit most certain are ALL from exploiting.

gotcha im just saying ive met people who ASSUME all deathnips are from exploiting so i just wanted to make sure that wasnt what was being said

Crarites
04-07-2008, 03:15 PM
I tottaly disagree with this is this case becasue
the first ones to beat this raid didn't get anything but a broken timer
you have to collect ingred to make anything and at first the people that blew through this raid wasted ingred trying to firgue out what did what...so they didn;t get any more power
hoenstly if anything the "slower" players got more bang for their buck....thay didn't waste any ingreds

Hrmmmm wierd response.... My natural inclination would be that the first people to beat the raid didn't know of the exploit.. but I guess you could argue that since the exploit was known before the bug perhaps it was used of course I wouldn't surmise that. But in either case exploiters clearly use less resources and have less demands on what characters to bring. By extention more ingredients and ability to experiment or craft; ignoring that exploiters likely just collected ingredients until the recipes became known...

Turial
04-07-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm of the opinion personally that if only a small portion of the player base were using the exploit in question then punishments would be meted out. This changes significantly as you add more and more people. If a large number of people are exploiting then there is likely to be no punishment but just a removal of the exploit. To me its just the reality of the situation. Does anyone seriously expect Turbine to punish 60-70% of its player base?

Well its more to show that the random punishment isnt working as a deterent to part of the player base. If turbine had a hard stance on punishment for exploits then one might say that less people would be tempted to do it. Personally I don't think 60-70% of the player base exploits the game, or rather understand what the exploit may be. The issue is the 10% of the player base that know how to cause issues with the game and feel no issues with doing it. Other things in the past have given life to something I was told as I left a group. "exploit early and exploit often" which is a bad view of things but one that seems to exist in almost every MMO.

jerryxenon
04-07-2008, 03:18 PM
I think the hipocrisy that exists on this Topic is Laughable

Crarites
04-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Well its more to show that the random punishment isnt working as a deterent to part of the player base. If turbine had a hard stance on punishment for exploits then one might say that less people would be tempted to do it. Personally I don't think 60-70% of the player base exploits the game, or rather understand what the exploit may be. The issue is the 10% of the player base that know how to cause issues with the game and feel no issues with doing it. Other things in the past have given life to something I was told as I left a group. "exploit early and exploit often" which is a bad view of things but one that seems to exist in almost every MMO.

Well just to support my fabricated number..I ran close to 18 pugs for shroud completions. Of those pugs all attempted the exploit as a first option. Perhaps I have bad luck with pugs but I just assumed there were groups not using the exploit so I didn't say 100%.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Well its more to show that the random punishment isnt working as a deterent to part of the player base. If turbine had a hard stance on punishment for exploits then one might say that less people would be tempted to do it. Personally I don't think 60-70% of the player base exploits the game, or rather understand what the exploit may be. The issue is the 10% of the player base that know how to cause issues with the game and feel no issues with doing it. Other things in the past have given life to something I was told as I left a group. "exploit early and exploit often" which is a bad view of things but one that seems to exist in almost every MMO.

Help me with this one. So if you are running a raid that takes about 90 minutes to complete, and at minute 88 a bug occurs, you leave? I haven't seen the bug often enough to care about it, but to me, Part 1 - Part 4 without any bug = non exploit, and part 5 is easy enough though maybe a bit tedious.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:31 PM
Aspenor and Maddmatt:

I'll number my ideas for those who have a hard time reading full paragraphs:

1. There's a difference between Group Leader and Nazi.
2. I don't like to be told what to do and what not to do.
3. I like to roll a quest however the group thinks is best.
4. I don't think this is an exploit, I think it's a minor bug...if a group is together enough to even get to part 5, than they can beat it.
5. I'd like to see a fix that makes pt 5 less tedious. Part 4 is a good example of balance.


Godwin's Law has been invoked...Asp... You win....:p;):D

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 03:32 PM
Dude doesnt really run with uptight people.

Exactly, and he ran with me regularly, and often, when I was on your server.

What, you can't say "hi" to him for me? :p

Jaywade
04-07-2008, 03:34 PM
I think the hipocrisy that exists on this Topic is Laughable


agreed..... it's a cheesy, but I'm not going to curse 11 other players and miss out on 2 more chests and a chance of large ingred casue of it..... I don't think part 5 is all that hard but having sais that.... I have been in many grps that could not beat in any other way....and btw guys this happens in a lot of other instances, the reaver does it the red named skelly in the end of the tor...it's a AI issue.... I'm sure the dev's are trying to fix it....but I bet it's not easy

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 03:36 PM
Godwin's Law has been invoked...Asp... You win....:p;):D

Tell me something I didn't know already ;) :p

Asp pwnz you

Crarites
04-07-2008, 03:37 PM
I think the hipocrisy that exists on this Topic is Laughable

I admit it... I'm human and therefore must be a hypocrit. Or is it I'm a hypocrit so therefore must be human?

Turial
04-07-2008, 03:41 PM
Help me with this one. So if you are running a raid that takes about 90 minutes to complete, and at minute 88 a bug occurs, you leave? I haven't seen the bug often enough to care about it, but to me, Part 1 - Part 4 without any bug = non exploit, and part 5 is easy enough though maybe a bit tedious.

No I did not leave due to a bug this was something someone was saying as I left group at the end of a regular quest where people got on the topic of bugs and such. And no I'm not going to leave if a bug occurs, though depending on the way it occured I may be a little more selective in my grouping. So in the end I guess I'm a hyprocrit in a way. I just prefer to not actively cause bugs regardless of the tedium.

This coming from a guy that spent 2+ hours shooting the abbot by himself to see if it was possible to solo the quest or atleast get some practice on the puzzles.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:43 PM
Tell me something I didn't know already ;) :p

Asp pwnz you

Anyway... since Godwin's Law was invoked and this thread is now over..lets change the subject..I think the best way the Devs can use their time is by making everything of Rowanheal's Pink...;):D:p

Aspenor
04-07-2008, 03:44 PM
Anyway... since Godwin's Law was invoked and this thread is now over..lets change the subject..I think the best way the Devs can use their time is by making everything of Rowanheal's Pink...;):D:p

Tell me about it....

It's become my job to find pink everything....

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:44 PM
Jealousy. Has your guild even completed the raid yet?

You must be kidding?..look at my guild name...then ask me again :D

Gunga
04-07-2008, 03:48 PM
No I did not leave due to a bug this was something someone was saying as I left group at the end of a regular quest where people got on the topic of bugs and such. And no I'm not going to leave if a bug occurs, though depending on the way it occured I may be a little more selective in my grouping. So in the end I guess I'm a hyprocrit in a way. I just prefer to not actively cause bugs regardless of the

This is exactly how I feel about it. I'm playing all of my toons regularly to completion because I want my 20th loot...just like the Reaver. If Turbine says the raid is closed until we can fix it, like they did the last time there was truly an exploit problem, than I'll wait till it's fixed and resume when they are done. If they changed they way that we are supposed to complete the raid, then guess what? We'll figure it out and keep completing it the easiest way we can. And, Asp and Matt and Drag, there's really no sense in kicking people out of groups or causing tension with other people on your server...we want more people running raids not less.

brshelton
04-07-2008, 03:48 PM
Tell me about it....

It's become my job to find pink everything....

i had a buddy who had POWER RANGER PINK +5 mithral FP....then it bugged out in the mail and he lost it... I think Rowanheal's Ninjas stole it!

Delt
04-07-2008, 03:48 PM
No I did not leave due to a bug this was something someone was saying as I left group at the end of a regular quest where people got on the topic of bugs and such. And no I'm not going to leave if a bug occurs, though depending on the way it occured I may be a little more selective in my grouping. So in the end I guess I'm a hyprocrit in a way. I just prefer to not actively cause bugs regardless of the tedium.

This coming from a guy that spent 2+ hours shooting the abbot by himself to see if it was possible to solo the quest or atleast get some practice on the puzzles.

Interesting...you don't port into the puzzles if you are under the puzzle minimum (I know, I tried)...so I'm a little curious how you managed it solo.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 03:49 PM
You must be kidding?..look at my guild name...then ask me again :D

No I'm serious. I asked you after I saw your guild name.

Rowanheal
04-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Anyway... since Godwin's Law was invoked and this thread is now over..lets change the subject..I think the best way the Devs can use their time is by making everything of Rowanheal's Pink...;):D:p

I heard Pink was mentioned and had to come over and visit...

I totally agree with you Dragnmoon. We could use a little more pink in stormreach don't you think?

I think this thread needs many many comments about the uberness of pink and how it can be used to make our time in stormreach more fabulous :D

Tolero asked about what I would make besides items and weapons when crafting...

Well hello... PINK STUFF!!!

See you in Stormreach,

-R

Oreg
04-07-2008, 03:53 PM
This is exactly how I feel about it. I'm playing all of my toons regularly to completion because I want my 20th loot...just like the Reaver. If Turbine says the raid is closed until we can fix it, like they did the last time there was truly an exploit problem, than I'll wait till it's fixed and resume when they are done. If they changed they way that we are supposed to complete the raid, then guess what? We'll figure it out and keep completing it the easiest way we can. And, Asp and Matt and Drag, there's really no sense in kicking people out of groups or causing tension with other people on your server...we want more people running raids not less.

QFT.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:53 PM
No I'm serious. I asked you after I saw your guild name.


Oh..in that case... They beat the raid shortly after it came out...


sorry...thought everyone knew about Cataclysm.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Oh..in that case... They beat the raid shortly after it came out...


sorry...thought everyone knew about Cataclysm.

Correction: If you beat anything, you did it after KaTet did. A buddy of mine is in your guild, but I think he had already beaten the raid before he joined up with you guys. Maybe he's shown you the way.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:56 PM
And, Asp and Matt and Drag, there's really no sense in kicking people out of groups or causing tension with other people on your server...we want more people running raids not less.


Woah... I never said I was kicking people out of my raid groups...

I just said by Turbines definition of what an exploit is...this would be an exploit..

And if Turbine is not going to punish those for exploiting it..why would they stop..

Oh..I also said though I know about the exploit..never seen it done..

grrrr...... I am supposed to be talking about Pink!!!

We need Cloak animations in the Game... especially Pink ones :D;):p

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 03:58 PM
Correction: If you beat anything, you did it after KaTet did. A buddy of mine is in your guild, but I think he had already beaten the raid before he joined up with you guys. Maybe he's shown you the way.

1..I never said we beat it first...
2... Not knowing who your buddy is,,, can't say if he was in the first time they beat it...

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 03:59 PM
Correction: If you beat anything, you did it after KaTet did. A buddy of mine is in your guild, but I think he had already beaten the raid before he joined up with you guys. Maybe he's shown you the way.

LOL, what are you correcting?

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:00 PM
LOL, what are you correcting?

LOL, what?

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:05 PM
Woah... I never said I was kicking people out of my raid groups...

I just said by Turbines definition of what an exploit is...this would be an exploit..

And if Turbine is not going to punish those for exploiting it..why would they stop..

Oh..I also said though I know about the exploit..never seen it done..

grrrr...... I am supposed to be talking about Pink!!!

We need Cloak animations in the Game... especially Pink ones :D;):p

When you agreed with Asp above, you weren't clear on what you didn't agree with him on. You fight for your pink, Drag. I got no prob with Cataclysm...you guys have a lot of great players. I'm cool with AZ and used to run a lot with him.

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 04:05 PM
LOL, what?

Reading comprehension?

I quoted you correcting Dragon.

Im asking what are you correcting?
What did he say that requires correcting?

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:06 PM
Reading comprehension?

I quoted you correcting Dragon.

Im asking what are you correcting?
What did he say that requires correcting?

Oh, I went through that already, comprehension guy. My LOL, what? wasn't questioning what you were confused over. I knew what you were having a problem understanding. My LOL, what? was really asking why you use LOL?

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 04:09 PM
I quoted you correcting Dragon.




Correction: Dragn... If you are going to shorten my Nic...do it right... ;):D:p

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 04:09 PM
Oh, I went through that already, comprehension guy. My LOL, what? wasn't questioning what you were confused over. I knew what you were having a problem understanding. My LOL, what? was really asking why you use LOL?

LOL....ok bro.

Congrats on being the first though...

Beherit_Baphomar
04-07-2008, 04:10 PM
Correction: Dragn... If you are going to shorten my Nic...do it right... ;):D:p

I apologise, Drgon.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:10 PM
LOL....ok bro.

Congrats on being the first though...

I wasn't there. Thanks though, brother man. You're the best. Now that this thread has crashed and burned I think I'll run a shroud.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 04:12 PM
I apologise, Drgon.


DOH!!!!

Desteria
04-07-2008, 04:25 PM
Also the 2:43 beat down in part 5, did that happen b4 they changed his AI, when he used to just stay in one area if you controlled his aggro instead of constantly porting no matter how many tanks you have on him?

It happend less then or about a weekago, nto sure what change your talkign about he some times ports people to himself and IF you let him free he will run all over the place, btu if you box him in and kepe a fog on him he will stand still mostly and just beat the cap out of your tanks spinnign in aa cirle to hit random targets it seams.

stockwizard5
04-07-2008, 04:26 PM
I wasn't there. Thanks though, brother man. You're the best. Now that this thread has crashed and burned I think I'll run a shroud.

I guess if you call your method "running" :confused:

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:30 PM
I guess if you call your method "running" :confused:

I can't wait to hear you tell me my method.

Rameses
04-07-2008, 04:34 PM
The major problem IMHO is that 1 member can force the rest of the party to play along, even if they explicitly state what actions are forbidden.


Making players NOT use everything at there disposal to beat an enemy is NOT cool.

Recently in a Guild Shroud raid (with 2 PuG players) we said at the beginning of the Raid that our guild doesn't like to exploit. And we made it very clear before starting that if the pugs weren't in line with that they were welcome to leave no hurt feelings either way.

We get to pt.5 one of the pugs starts to set up the exploit and it was a very good thing that one of guild the casters had greater dispell mem'd

bandyman1
04-07-2008, 04:34 PM
What's hilarious Gunga, is you bragging about your guild being the first on your server, like it gives some kind of lofty weight to your opinion.

Big deal. Last I checked, Archmagi was the first to beat the raid on Argo. You know; the largest server? And guess what guild Asp belongs to :rolleyes:?

Eudimio
04-07-2008, 04:43 PM
What's hilarious Gunga, is you bragging about your guild being the first on your server, like it gives some kind of lofty weight to your opinion.

Big deal. Last I checked, Archmagi was the first to beat the raid on Argo. You know; the largest server? And guess what guild Asp belongs to :rolleyes:?

Haha! You guys are hilarious. Big guild, big server, big deal. The first completion and elite completion of this raid gamewide was in a Khyber PUG. That fact makes all of this bragging rediculous.

P.S. No ghouls had to sacrifice themselves for this cause.

Desteria
04-07-2008, 04:46 PM
Haha! You guys are hilarious. Big guild, big server, big deal. The first completion and elite completion of this raid gamewide was in a Khyber PUG. That fact makes all of this bragging rediculous.

P.S. No ghouls had to sacrifice themselves for this cause.

don't knwo If i would really call that group a pug was more of a guildies and friends run, i know at least 90% of that group run together regularly, as i run with a lot of them as well :)

Yuhjn
04-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Using the technique that bugs him does no good without the bug.

No one in their right mind thinks they are increasing their advantage by doing what bugs him, if he didnt bug.

No party would ever try to use that technique to beat him without the bug


therefore it's an exploit.

bandyman1
04-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Haha! You guys are hilarious. Big guild, big server, big deal. The first completion and elite completion of this raid gamewide was in a Khyber PUG. That fact makes all of this bragging rediculous.

P.S. No ghouls had to sacrifice themselves for this cause.

And I totally agree.

And I also totally wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, if the guy hadn't stated it like three times already, as if it somehow makes him an authority on the shroud.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 04:50 PM
Haha! You guys are hilarious. Big guild, big server, big deal. The first completion and elite completion of this raid gamewide was in a Khyber PUG. That fact makes all of this bragging rediculous.

P.S. No ghouls had to sacrifice themselves for this cause.

Actually, it has nothing to do with bragging. We beat it using a lot of resources and very little strategy...it was still very new. So did everyone who can say they beat it first on their server...believe it or not, it means a lot more than bragging rights. It took a big commitment to make it happen, and lots of other guilds reaped the benfits of the few who bore the greatest expense. All you see is bragging, because you were one of the many who it cost very little in comparison to complete and begin crafting.

Muirtach
04-07-2008, 05:22 PM
Actually, it has nothing to do with bragging. We beat it using a lot of resources and very little strategy...it was still very new. So did everyone who can say they beat it first on their server...believe it or not, it means a lot more than bragging rights. It took a big commitment to make it happen, and lots of other guilds reaped the benfits of the few who bore the greatest expense. All you see is bragging, because you were one of the many who it cost very little in comparison to complete and begin crafting.

Having been first for a bunch of raids (server and game) before I stopped caring about a game more than having fun, it is just bragging rights.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 05:33 PM
Having been first for a bunch of raids (server and game) before I stopped caring about a game more than having fun, it is just bragging rights.

Well then, speak for yourself, braggy.

Although you haven't really given me specifics on your gaming exploits, and I'm not sure how your point even adds to the issues laid out in this thread, tell me something: does a person who practices until they become successful make them a more reliable or less reliable source of information on the subject? If they give you proof of their experience, like a resume, does this make them a braggard?

These questions should be easy for you, being an expert.

Muirtach
04-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Well then, speak for yourself, braggy.

Although you haven't really given me specifics on your gaming exploits, and I'm not sure how your point even adds to the issues laid out in this thread, tell me something: does a person who practices until they become successful make them a more reliable or less reliable source of information on the subject? If they give you proof of their experience, like a resume, does this make them a braggard?

These questions should be easy for you, being an expert.

My gaming exploits? Well yesterday I played darts and shot some stick at the bar. I did okay, but with a fractured wrist neither is exactly easy so I was not up to par.

The topic of this thread being beaten into the ground by all sides has nothing to do with the personal experience of the contributors into the discussion as it really steps beyond the bounds of the one quest mentioned and once more touches upon the eternal debate of what is and is not an exploit. Frankly, I find it comical and only read while waiting for my video to render out so I can send a copy to the client. I shall say it again more succinctly; an exploit is an exploit regardless of how often you have tested it or if you have onyl heard of it. What is an exploit is up ot Turbine to define and deal with.

And I prefer to be called "You pompus ***", thank you.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 05:55 PM
My gaming exploits? Well yesterday I played darts and shot some stick at the bar. I did okay, but with a fractured wrist neither is exactly easy so I was not up to par.

The topic of this thread being beaten into the ground by all sides has nothing to do with the personal experience of the contributors into the discussion as it really steps beyond the bounds of the one quest mentioned and once more touches upon the eternal debate of what is and is not an exploit. Frankly, I find it comical and only read while waiting for my video to render out so I can send a copy to the client. I shall say it again more succinctly; an exploit is an exploit regardless of how often you have tested it or if you have onyl heard of it. What is an exploit is up ot Turbine to define and deal with.

And I prefer to be called "You pompus ***", thank you.

Nice. Good luck with your wrist.

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Actually, it has nothing to do with bragging. We beat it using a lot of resources and very little strategy...it was still very new. So did everyone who can say they beat it first on their server...believe it or not, it means a lot more than bragging rights. It took a big commitment to make it happen, and lots of other guilds reaped the benfits of the few who bore the greatest expense. All you see is bragging, because you were one of the many who it cost very little in comparison to complete and begin crafting.

you also were only first cause our ranger was out of arrows about 2 hours earlier :P

Gunga
04-07-2008, 06:03 PM
you also were only first cause our ranger was out of arrows about 2 hours earlier :P

And your point?

CaptGrim
04-07-2008, 06:04 PM
Using a bug that was unintended is an exploit.

The bugged AI from pit fiend

=

Locking down a lieutenant while you get mana(BTW this is poor design and CAN'T be how this adventure was intended to be ran)

=

Exploiting the pathing issues of the AI in part 2


Bottom line is you are a hypocrite if you criticize one of those and preform the rest.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 06:04 PM
you also were only first cause our ranger was out of arrows about 2 hours earlier :P

Did someone forget to remind the ranger to Buy Arrows?...Doh!!!!:D:p;)..

I remember hearing about that Lel...Wish I was there..*LOL*

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 06:05 PM
And your point?

point is its really not a point lol just a jab :P

Gunga
04-07-2008, 06:05 PM
point is its really not a point lol just a jab :P

Ah. Blocked and countered. See ya later, lo. I'm out.

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Did someone forget to remind the ranger to Buy Arrows?...Doh!!!!:D:p;)..

I remember hearing about that Lel...Wish I was there..*LOL*

yeah it was actually our first fight against part 5 lol didnt really know what was happening but got him down to about 5% all our melee was pretty much naked from death dmg deadeye ran out of arrows and clerics out of mana pots hehe

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 06:10 PM
Using a bug that was unintended is an exploit.

The bugged AI from pit fiend

=

Locking down a lieutenant while you get mana(BTW this is poor design and CAN'T be how this adventure was intended to be ran)

=

Exploiting the pathing issues of the AI in part 2


Bottom line is you are a hypocrite if you criticize one of those and preform the rest.

locking down a leiutenant is just an easier way to do it used to kite him around while everyone filled up before that, half of the mobs in part 2 dont even move once dead not really sure id call that a pathing issue

Turial
04-07-2008, 06:12 PM
Well I attempted to solo it. I have a decent set of saves and if you run around like a scared animal while pelting him with arrows eventually you will get him down to the part of the quest where the script is supposed to send 6 people to the puzzles. In 12 attempts he hasn't sent me to the puzzles. I've run it with 6 people a few times but its kinda a shot in the dark. One bad horrid wilting can take out a good bit of the group.
Interesting...you don't port into the puzzles if you are under the puzzle minimum (I know, I tried)...so I'm a little curious how you managed it solo.

dragnmoon
04-07-2008, 06:18 PM
yeah it was actually our first fight against part 5 lol didnt really know what was happening but got him down to about 5% all our melee was pretty much naked from death dmg deadeye ran out of arrows and clerics out of mana pots hehe

Yeah I know..heard about it the next day... Was in the Guild at the time... I was dead asleep when ya guys did it...DOH for living in Europe!

Westerner
04-07-2008, 06:36 PM
The bugged AI from pit fiend = Locking down a lieutenant while you get mana = Exploiting the pathing issues of the AI in part 2
They're not the same.

The first one permanently shuts down the mob's aggro. The other two are temporary and/or require significant risk/skill to pull off.

Just because it's hard to draw the line between tactic and exploit doesn't mean players are absolved of responsibility.

DesertBlue
04-07-2008, 06:42 PM
And your point?

His point is Gunga:
-We were first to Reaver because their caster was out of Spell components.
-We were first to Abbot because their Rogue was out of Theives tools.
-and we were first to Shroud because their Ranger was out of arrows.


So you can see that if it wasn't for the completely **** we'd be second.

Dees wow

Gunga
04-07-2008, 06:47 PM
His point is Gunga:
-We were first to Reaver because their caster was out of Spell components.
-We were first to Abbot because their Rogue was out of Theives tools.
-and we were first to Shroud because their Ranger was out of arrows.


So you can see that if it wasn't for the completely **** we'd be second.

Dees wow

Got it. Thanks, cold. wow.

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 06:51 PM
His point is Gunga:
-We were first to Reaver because their caster was out of Spell components.
-We were first to Abbot because their Rogue was out of Theives tools.
-and we were first to Shroud because their Ranger was out of arrows.


So you can see that if it wasn't for the completely **** we'd be second.

Dees wow

first to reaver? only if you were in tlk then
first to abbott was exodus
and yep you was first to shroud ive congratulated you all several times

CaptGrim
04-07-2008, 06:55 PM
Bugging out the AI is just an easier way to do it, used toBeat him down while everyone used resourcesbefore that.

My cynical fixes in red


half of the mobs in part 2 don't even move once dead not really sure id call that a pathing issue

What would you call it, a bug?, an exploit if abusing said bug to make it faster/easier?

I'd call it an unintended bug on the same lvl as the AI in five.

I for one enjoyed doing part 2 as intended, but now everyone bugs them and firewalls the others.

LeLoric
04-07-2008, 07:18 PM
My cynical fixes in red



What would you call it, a bug?, an exploit if abusing said bug to make it faster/easier?

I'd call it an unintended bug on the same lvl as the AI in five.

I for one enjoyed doing part 2 as intended, but now everyone bugs them and firewalls the others.

the first part you quoted was about the 4th lieutenant not the pit fiend really is no difference in someone kiting a mob around or some people blocking him in one isnt easier than the others

part two some of the red nameds i agree have pathing issues cause they walk when they are ghosts others just stand there not trying to move and doesnt matter where you kill them or when no way to avoid that and that was what i was pointing out

BigNastyMP
04-07-2008, 07:28 PM
On a positive note...

If anyone on Sarlona wants to beat this raid without bugging Harry in parts 4 or 5, join an NSR shroud run. It's a 90 minute quest without exploitation that is run as smooth as butter.

Accelerando
04-07-2008, 07:40 PM
His point is Gunga:
-We were first to Reaver because their caster was out of Spell components.
-We were first to Abbot because their Rogue was out of Theives tools.
-and we were first to Shroud because their Ranger was out of arrows.


So you can see that if it wasn't for the completely **** we'd be second.

Dees wow

Don't forget TDQ. Just because our name is different now doesn't mean it wasn't us lol.

CaptGrim
04-07-2008, 07:58 PM
the first part you quoted was about the 4th lieutenant not the pit fiend

I understand that, I changed the context to show that the same argument could be used

really is no difference in someone kiting a mob around or some people blocking him in one isnt easier than the others

Yes, one is an exploit ( abusing crappy AI ) and one is a vaild tactic

part two some of the red nameds i agree have pathing issues cause they walk when they are ghosts others just stand there not trying to move and doesnt matter where you kill them or when no way to avoid that and that was what i was pointing out.

Again, I get it, but the point I'm trying to make is that taking a part 2 boss to a specific place to kill, is the EXACT same as bugging the raid boss in terms of an exploit


I'm playing devils advocate (pun) here, I would love it to have a properly working raid but we don't.

Does it really get your e-peens in a knot that people play the quest as easily as possible? Why blame the people playing when the product that we PAY FOR is consistently buggy?

If its your raid, fine, set the rules, people should follow.

If its someone else's ST*U and let the leader decide, drop and find another grp if you don't like it.

The level of hypocrisy on these(and all for that matter) forums still astounds me. ( not speaking to LeLoric specifically)

DaveyCrockett
04-07-2008, 08:24 PM
With the number of 'unintended methods' that existed to finish this quest, I really give no merit to anyone's claims of '1st'. Not this time.

Let's see who does what in Mod 7 tho. (if it comes exploit-free)

Naso24
04-07-2008, 08:41 PM
Using the technique that bugs him does no good without the bug.

No one in their right mind thinks they are increasing their advantage by doing what bugs him, if he didnt bug.

No party would ever try to use that technique to beat him without the bug


therefore it's an exploit.

I totally disagree. I found out about part 4 bugging (although it resets when he flies), by using a spell and a couple clicks of one of my new raid items, in an attempt to increase damage output (which would also block some of some of the fireballs, much like having more tanks around him does).

This is really no different than if he bugged on casting acid fog, which is also a legit spell. He reacts poorly to a legit spell. If acid fog was the spell, would you call all people who use it exploiters once they know the effect? I would simply call it a bug and hope the devs fix it. I shouldn't have to stop swinging swords, using legit spells, or items because their code is broke. This is totally different than finding a location he cannot get to. This is totally different from taking advantages of the interface client.

Another example, cast chill touch on the doomsphere. Is it a bug or an exploit?
Comet fall or trip on the titan. It seemed legit, and crafty.

DesertBlue
04-07-2008, 09:33 PM
first to reaver? only if you were in tlk then
first to abbott was exodus
and yep you was first to shroud ive congratulated you all several times

lol you know I dont care about this stuff. I just care about throwing knives and running out of arrows is a hilarious target so I embellished for fun. Hell KaTet didnt even exist til after Reaver.

Gunga
04-07-2008, 10:31 PM
With the number of 'unintended methods' that existed to finish this quest, I really give no merit to anyone's claims of '1st'. Not this time.

Let's see who does what in Mod 7 tho. (if it comes exploit-free)

Bah. I invite you to complete the next raid first, let alone even notice an exploit when you first see it. You will follow the path we leave for you.

sirgog
04-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Heard about it...never seen it done..

You must be the only one.

Whenever I'm on my Cleric, I ask after zoning into part 1 whether or not the group will be exploiting 4-5 - if they say yes, I drop group and leave them in there down a cleric.

I'm going to start reporting these cheats in-game too.


This exploit needs to be punished - personally I'd like to see a warning message (like the "All the glitters in NOT gold") on the login screen which explicitly details the cheat and warns of the consequences for using it, and an automatic 7-day ban for anyone caught using the cheat (i.e. actually doing the actions needed to initiate the exploit, not just being in-group with someone). Second offense irrevocable character deletion, third offense permanent account ban. Plus, a world broadcast message (maybe like the old ******* has failed the Reaver message, maybe less intrusive) should state the names of the characters caught and the action taken against them.

That'll stop it, and stop it fast. And when there's a clear warning given, noone can say "I didn't know".

Cyr
04-08-2008, 02:01 AM
Exploits are unavoidably going to be used by players when they pop up. This exploit unlike pretty much any that I can recall from DDO's past does not require someone to LD or use some game mechanic to 'bug' the boss. Instead it uses what should be a perfectly legitimate tactic. In fact, it seems like the dev's even wanted to add some fun to this quest with how the fiend reacts when this tactic is used before he comes down from his perch. Talk of let's ban people is yet another way for DDO to lose more of it's already small player base. If you do not like the tactic do not use it. The fight really is not very difficult so most groups should be able to pull it off with some leadership. Now the real issue here is not who uses this exploit and what should be done to them, but how these glaringly obvious defects keep on appearing in new raids. There has not been a non-buggy raid since tempest spine. Velah had her issues, the titan was a complete disaster, the DQ had her invincible bug, the reaver had/has the stuck inactive bug, the abbot had the tactical issue (apparently an exploit I call it bad game design myself, if you did not want players to do it all you had to do was add a wall at the edge of the platform that you had to walk around), and now the fiend has this issue. There is no way that playtesters on Mournlands did not pick up on these issues, especially this one which is so glaringly obvious (first pug i was in someone did it by accident!).

As a playing community we should be angry that this defect made it to release (as well as the horns and the broken side quests in the shroud). We should be even more angry that they were not fixed in the submodule release. As in fix I mean for pete's sake just fix it so that the tactic does not work...do not change the entire fight around like you did the abbot. If the easiest way to fix this is to disable the use of those spells in parts 4/5 that would be fine by me as long as you put it on the top of your list to truly fix the issue in the future.

smatt
04-08-2008, 02:03 AM
No doubt we did it on normal and then hard before anyone knew, including us, about buggin the bastage. Gunga that slag's been the same since the beginning, and I heard he can't play worth a dang when my fighter took walk over to Argo.


Hmmm, perhaps destruction LOLOLOL Indeed :rolleyes:

Xalted_Vol
04-08-2008, 02:17 AM
Who cares if people are exploiting anything mind your own business drop group if you have to start your own. How about not running your mouth people whine so much look at what happened with static loot. Keep on crying and getting things changed and you will be the only person playing this game.

Gunga
04-08-2008, 02:45 AM
Hmmm, perhaps destruction LOLOLOL Indeed :rolleyes:

You may have used it, but I assure you we were the last to learn about that stupid bug. You couldn't possibly destruct a red named...

Accelerando
04-08-2008, 04:20 AM
Chill pill? As raid leader you have the right to decide your group's tactics. If somebody decides to go directly against the rules set in place, they deserve to be ostracized by those that set up those rules.

No I am talking about the attitude that being in one of your raids is a special privilege. Its the shroud, its easy bug or no bug, get over yourself.

GlassCannon
04-08-2008, 04:42 AM
No I am talking about the attitude that being in one of your raids is a special privilege. Its the shroud, its easy bug or no bug, get over yourself.

Correction: It's easy with Rangers and Rogues. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, with a party of tanks and clerics.

Also, those of you who posted telling others to stop whining, this is how to do it right:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0115787/images/My%20Pictures/Stop%20Whining.jpeg

FluffyCalico
04-08-2008, 04:59 AM
Power gamming rules:
1) Find exploit
2) use exploit as often and as much as possible
3) Once you have major advantage and no longer need exploit be sure to report it and demand it be fixed so no one else can follow in your easy footsteps


This is every MMO including this one. Note it is not every power gamer, just 99&#37; of them

bandyman1
04-08-2008, 06:00 AM
Correction: It's easy with Rangers and Rogues. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, with a party of tanks and clerics.

Also, those of you who posted telling others to stop whining, this is how to do it right:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0115787/images/My%20Pictures/Stop%20Whining.jpeg

Have you lost your mind Glass? Completing The Shroud is quite easy without a single ranger or rogue in the party.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 06:14 AM
No I am talking about the attitude that being in one of your raids is a special privilege. Its the shroud, its easy bug or no bug, get over yourself.

Get over myself? Privilege?

Way to put words in my mouth. Never said anything remotely close.

I said that a raid leader has the right to determine his party's "tactics" (I will be liberal and allow this exploit to be called a tactic for this purpose). If an individual does not follow the rules, THE RAID LEADER(S) HAVE THE RIGHT TO REJECT THEM FOR LATER PARTIES.

It's how grouping mechanics work.

How about you all get over yourselves and just accept the fact that some people look down on cheap tricks, and that those people have the right to reject you for it.

Gabrion
04-08-2008, 06:24 AM
Have you lost your mind Glass? Completing The Shroud is quite easy without a single ranger or rogue in the party.

A heads up fight with the Pit Fiend in part 5 with no ranged combat is easy? Dang, once again I feel like either people have a different definition of easy, or I'm just really bad at this game.

bandyman1
04-08-2008, 06:32 AM
A heads up fight with the Pit Fiend in part 5 with no ranged combat is easy? Dang, once again I feel like either people have a different definition of easy, or I'm just really bad at this game.

Lmao.

Do people take damage??? Absolutely. Do characters die??? On occasion.

Can the group complete without major expenses for the cleric, or without it being nearly impossible while not using the exploit??? Absolutely.

Been there, done that.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 06:36 AM
Have you lost your mind Glass? Completing The Shroud is quite easy without a single ranger or rogue in the party.

But Bandyman, there's only one group makeup for the Shroud that could EVER dream of completing :p

bandyman1
04-08-2008, 06:37 AM
But Bandyman, there's only one group makeup for the Shroud that could EVER dream of completing :p

:p Yeah. " OMG Jim, I took damage!!!! WhaaahhhHHHHH! "

Just LMAO.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 06:40 AM
A heads up fight with the Pit Fiend in part 5 with no ranged combat is easy? Dang, once again I feel like either people have a different definition of easy, or I'm just really bad at this game.

It's really all about people knowing their role and assignments and keeping with them.

That's all you need.

Oh and lots and lots of DPS.

Angelus_dead
04-08-2008, 08:25 AM
A heads up fight with the Pit Fiend in part 5 with no ranged combat is easy? Dang, once again I feel like either people have a different definition of easy, or I'm just really bad at this game.
Yes, it is easy, assuming you have a powerful team.

The simple way to check if your team is powerful is to count the number of "rounds" it took you to beat him in part 4. If it took 1 or 2, you have good DPS, and part 5 will be easy. If it took 3+, you do not.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 08:28 AM
Yes, it is easy, assuming you have a powerful team.

The simple way to check if your team is powerful is to count the number of "rounds" it took you to beat him in part 4. If it took 1 or 2, you have good DPS, and part 5 will be easy. If it took 3+, you do not.

In my experience 2 1/2 rounds is the benchmark for an easy Part 5, but your experience my differ from mine for various reasons. 2-3 is a good starting point. 4 rounds is pushing it. 5...don't bother to go into part 5 unless some kind of fluke during part 4 left you short-manned for most of the battle.

Missing_Minds
04-08-2008, 08:34 AM
In my experience 2 1/2 rounds is the benchmark for an easy Part 5, but your experience my differ from mine for various reasons. 2-3 is a good starting point. 4 rounds is pushing it. 5...don't bother to go into part 5 unless some kind of fluke during part 4 left you short-manned for most of the battle.

Sounds like a reasonable baseline there. But a question concerning casters. Should empower and/or maximized be used on the spells? He seems to save constantly, so would having more sp to toss more spells be better than the possibly of hitting him where he doesn't make the save? I've not seen any DPS calculator for spells.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 08:40 AM
Sounds like a reasonable baseline there. But a question concerning casters. Should empower and/or maximized be used on the spells? He seems to save constantly, so would having more sp to toss more spells be better than the possibly of hitting him where he doesn't make the save? I've not seen any DPS calculator for spells.

As far as spells go I use magic missiles. Red numbers and no save. No matter that I'm not specced for it, it seems to conserve enough SP and be reliable damage, whereas cold spells he has resistance to and I can only really get my SP bang-for-the-buck on crits because of his reflex save.

Although I might just be insane and I should be using cone of cold...I haven't cranked the numbers. I'll throw a cone of cold in every so often just hoping for a crit and failed save...800 damage takes a quite visible chunk from his bar. I can see the magic missiles visibly plinking away at his health bar too, albeit a little slower.

smatt
04-08-2008, 08:42 AM
You may have used it, but I assure you we were the last to learn about that stupid bug. You couldn't possibly destruct a red named...

Nope, not I...

Gunga
04-08-2008, 08:48 AM
Get over myself? Privilege?

Way to put words in my mouth. Never said anything remotely close.

I said that a raid leader has the right to determine his party's "tactics" (I will be liberal and allow this exploit to be called a tactic for this purpose). If an individual does not follow the rules, THE RAID LEADER(S) HAVE THE RIGHT TO REJECT THEM FOR LATER PARTIES.

It's how grouping mechanics work.

How about you all get over yourselves and just accept the fact that some people look down on cheap tricks, and that those people have the right to reject you for it.

Nah. I'd rather you get over yourself. Look down on whatever you want...if rejecting people is your idea of a good time, go for it.

Gunga
04-08-2008, 08:50 AM
Yes, it is easy, assuming you have a powerful team.

The simple way to check if your team is powerful is to count the number of "rounds" it took you to beat him in part 4. If it took 1 or 2, you have good DPS, and part 5 will be easy. If it took 3+, you do not.

You can still have great dps in a group if you do it in 3. Don't be ridiculous, Lucy.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 08:50 AM
Don't worry, I do. :D

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 08:53 AM
You can still have great dps in a group if you do it in 3. Don't be ridiculous, Lucy.

No...definitely not.

If you don't beat him in less than a full 3 rounds with everybody alive, you're seriously lacking in DPS, and definitely should reconsider moving on to part 5 with such a lacking party.

Then again, if you're just going to *cheap trick* part 5, you can have as poor a party as you please.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Exploits are unavoidably going to be used by players when they pop up. .

The problem is there seems to be no clear agreement on whats a bug/exploit and what's taking advantage of poor AI but is not an exploit, and what is good strategy.

To me the shroud5 bug that stops him from fighting at all is an exploit. Blocking or running around one of the names to allow a recharge for the casters could arguably be called a valid tactic but would be called an exploit by others (and if it is, so is shield block and firewall at all doors in the game or firewall/bb and run the mobs through it). Personally I think the von6 "hero" method is one of the biggest exploits in the game but it seems to be widely accepted.

The most serious shroud exploit is the crafting through the barier and personally i think those items should be removed from ppl's inventory without compenstation. Losing all those ingredients would send more of a message than a 7 day ban which I understand is almost never given anyway...

Lorien_the_First_One
04-08-2008, 09:07 AM
No...definitely not.

If you don't beat him in less than a full 3 rounds with everybody alive, you're seriously lacking in DPS, and definitely should reconsider moving on to part 5 with such a lacking party.

Then again, if you're just going to *cheap trick* part 5, you can have as poor a party as you please.

The unfortunate part is most pug groups seem to take 3-4. 2-2.5 is a less common experience. I suspect that's why there are so many ppl using the bugging trick.

As a general design thought, am I the only one that thinks giving 4million HP to the end boss so that the fight is not more challenging as much as it is an endurance match is not a good way to design a quest and its just looking for ppl to find aways around it?

juniorpfactors
04-08-2008, 09:15 AM
A heads up fight with the Pit Fiend in part 5 with no ranged combat is easy? Dang, once again I feel like either people have a different definition of easy, or I'm just really bad at this game.



on my gimp battle cleric with only 1200sp...we used 4 clerics 4 tanks, 1 ranger, 1 bard, 2 casters...just for a change

straight up melee in part 5.....took about 11 minutes and i used a total of 18 heal scrolls.....not that hard guys, 6 pugs


jrp

Gabrion
04-08-2008, 09:21 AM
Lmao.

Do people take damage??? Absolutely. Do characters die??? On occasion.

Can the group complete without major expenses for the cleric, or without it being nearly impossible while not using the exploit??? Absolutely.

Been there, done that.

Ok so really I wasn't wrong...you just mistyped when you said it's quite easy. :)

For everyone claiming that as along as you take him down in two rounds in part 4 then 5 will be easy (keeping in mind we're talking alll melee here), I still think you're exaggerating a lot.

Aspenor
04-08-2008, 09:23 AM
Ok so really I wasn't wrong...you just mistyped when you said it's quite easy. :)

Not really, he didn't mistype...1 or 2 deaths I wouldn't call "difficult." Usually they are just flukes.

Westerner
04-08-2008, 09:31 AM
The simple way to check if your team is powerful is to count the number of "rounds" it took you to beat him in part 4. If it took 1 or 2, you have good DPS, and part 5 will be easy. If it took 3+, you do not.
What about ranged? I think that changes the equation.

Ranged DPS may not be fast but has a very good DPS:healing ratio.

Jaywade
04-08-2008, 09:40 AM
No...definitely not.

If you don't beat him in less than a full 3 rounds with everybody alive, you're seriously lacking in DPS, and definitely should reconsider moving on to part 5 with such a lacking party.

Then again, if you're just going to *cheap trick* part 5, you can have as poor a party as you please.

I can't believe I'm going to say this....

I agree...... with Asp...

anything more than 3 rounds (barring some fluke like the first rd took 2 tanks and a cleric out of the game) and part 5 may be a bit much for ya , not saying you couldn;t do it but your going to use cakes and scrolls and all kinds of resources....

I tell more folks should try for the 1-2 rounds kill ....
here's a good receipe to try it, for those folks that like to lead shroud grps

1. at least 3 barbs 2 handed barbs are great 2 weapon barbs are great maybe a mix of both w/ great weapons ( what's a great weapon? +4/5 transmuting/gtr evil outsiderbane or pure good , or holy silver gtr evil outsider bane)
2. 2 arcanes with great polar rays/ cone of cones,
3. at least 1 cleric (assuming you are running w/ 3) who can land a good harm for decent damage
4 a bard song and haste gh and stone skin on everyone, prayer ect..
5.the rest doesn't matter good rangers w/ multi shot rogues for back stab damage fighters w/ good damge (although I prefer more 2 weapon fighters)
6.all the earth elem's you guy can summon

it's real simple all out mad rush in the first wave ...triple raged barbs on one side all other the melee's on the oppiste side of the barbs, shoot off your multi shots and casters hitting him w/ polar rays cone of cone and your harm cleic spaming him as well ..... give it a shot it's a blast to see him go down that fast in part 4


safe way ....

2 maybe 3 melee's w/ 2 maybe 3 ranged specced toons 1 cleric for each melee takes longer but the "hero & ranged" tactic works pretty well and most cleric's don't have to use a scroll even

Angelus_dead
04-08-2008, 09:52 AM
What about ranged? I think that changes the equation.

Ranged DPS may not be fast but has a very good DPS:healing ratio.
Yes, it was already specified in the context of using melee DPS.

And in fact, ranged is better in part 5 than part 4. In part 4 Arraetrikos has occasional health recovery from gnolls, so slower DPS from ranged gives him more chances to regain hitpoints, increasing the amount of damage you'll need to do (and giving him more time to kill someone). He has no way to recover hitpoints in part 5, so using a slower safer technique is relatively more effective there.

Quarion
04-08-2008, 12:54 PM
We've said this before and we'll say it again.

Turbine will not confirm, nor discuss details of specific exploits, at any time. This is, and has always been the policy. It is also against the forum guidelines to communicate any details of any exploit here on the forums or in the game, and can result in a permanent ban from the forum and/or the game.

We will confirm with you this:
When you take advantage of any game bug, minor or major, to specifically gain benefit or quest advancement from the behavior of that bug, you are exploiting, and risk your account being revoked permanently, without refund.

If you are taking part in such activities, you will know. There is no need to ask if you are or not.

Statements like "We will continue taking advantage of this bug, until Turbine confirms that it is an exploit, and not allowed." is not going to get you confirmation of any specific exploit, nor make your activities acceptable. All you need to know is that taking advantage of a bug to gain benefit or advance your quest automatically is not allowed.

Additionally, publicly accusing or attacking others who you suspect of exploiting, whether you use names, or not, is also not acceptable on these forums and will not be tolerated.

I'll refrain from banning people who have violated the rules in this thread, but from this point on we will not be lenient when it comes to discussing exploit activity. It's best just to stay away from the subject from now on.

If you know of a bug or exploit, please be sure to use the "Report Bug" link at the top of this page or on the forum listing. If you suspect someone is exploiting in the game, use the "?" icon to send a report to customer service. These are the only acceptable methods to communicate exploits to Turbine.

Thank you,
-Quarion