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Zuldar
04-07-2008, 01:21 AM
Seeing as many people think the new paladin enhancements aren't quite enough of a boost, I've come up with an idea for an enhancement.

As paladins are primarily combatants versus the forces of evil, such as undead and evil outsiders, how about giving them a couple of enhancements that can apply their aura as an equal penalty to undead and evil outsiders respectively.

It would be something relatively new and situationally useful. So what do you think?

Falco_Easts
04-07-2008, 01:56 AM
Seeing as many people think the new paladin enhancements aren't quite enough of a boost, I've come up with an idea for an enhancement.

As paladins are primarily combatants versus the forces of evil, such as undead and evil outsiders, how about giving them a couple of enhancements that can apply their aura as an equal penalty to undead and evil outsiders respectively.

It would be something relatively new and situationally useful. So what do you think?

So it would be like a double bonus against those types? We get +3 they get -3 for a total of 6 for example. Is that what you mean or am I having a blonde moment?

Zuldar
04-07-2008, 04:15 AM
More along that lines that it would apply a penalty to their ac and saves.

oronisi
04-07-2008, 08:30 AM
So basically you want favored enemies from the Ranger's list of unique abilities. While I can agree with your sentiment and idea, I think it is too similar to rangers and its effectiveness is completely dependant on what the devs chose to implement in their future mods.

Vyctor
04-07-2008, 08:42 AM
I still say the best enhancement a paladin could get at this point is the pious templar PrC, have it fall in line with the follower of X enhancement lines already available to them. Free fighting feats, a few more spells, and Mettle, an ability that would be of GREAT use in DDO.

Zuldar
04-07-2008, 09:07 AM
So basically you want favored enemies from the Ranger's list of unique abilities. While I can agree with your sentiment and idea, I think it is too similar to rangers and its effectiveness is completely dependant on what the devs chose to implement in their future mods.

Ranger favored enemies are nothing like this idea, they add a bonus to a handful of skills against favored enemies as well as a damage increase. Applying a penalty to ac and saves of undead and evil outsiders through an enhancement is merely an extrapolation of a house rule designed to make paladins relevant.

Not the same thing at all.

ChildrenofBodom
04-07-2008, 09:45 AM
So it would be like a double bonus against those types? We get +3 they get -3 for a total of 6 for example. Is that what you mean or am I having a blonde moment?

No...

If you get a +3 AC, and your opponent gets -3, you don't get a +6 AC unfortuneately, I think you read it wrong. Same with saves.


So basically you want favored enemies from the Ranger's list of unique abilities. While I can agree with your sentiment and idea, I think it is too similar to rangers and its effectiveness is completely dependant on what the devs chose to implement in their future mods.

You also missed the point.

Paladin aura (in this idea)

+4 (or whatever bonus) to saves and AC to allies.

-4 AC to saves and AC against evil creatures.

Easier to hit and FoD mobs with a paladin basically.

Turial
04-07-2008, 11:28 AM
I guess it would all depend on what level the enhancment starts at and what it costs.

First impression though is that its too powerful. Remember only about 15% of the mobs we face aren't strictly evil.

Zuldar
04-07-2008, 04:23 PM
The saves would be the only real part that would be tricky to balance, so I would recommend an enhancement for it at 11 and 14 that would total a -2 to saves. The ac is a bit less of an issue, so I would recommend a 4 point progression, say 4 8 12 16.

The other idea was not to just apply this to any evil enemy, but primarily undead and evil outsiders, seeing as they are more or less the evilest of the evil.

Lithic
04-07-2008, 04:34 PM
No...

Easier to hit and FoD mobs with a paladin basically.

Sorcerer: Hey paladin, go stand near that big group of devils.

Paladin: Here?

Sorcerer: Little closer... closer... closer...

Paladin: AARRRGGH IT HURTS IT HURTS!

Sorcerer: Perfect! FoD! FoD! PK! FoD!

Snoggy
04-07-2008, 05:51 PM
Ranger favored enemies are nothing like this idea, they add a bonus to a handful of skills against favored enemies as well as a damage increase. Applying a penalty to ac and saves of undead and evil outsiders through an enhancement is merely an extrapolation of a house rule designed to make paladins relevant.

Not the same thing at all.

The way I read Zuldar's idea wasn't like favored enemy. I see what you're trying to do. And limiting to undead and evil outsiders definitely has Paladin flavor in mind.

:)

Falco_Easts
04-07-2008, 07:18 PM
No...

If you get a +3 AC, and your opponent gets -3, you don't get a +6 AC unfortuneately, I think you read it wrong.
No but a +3 to our AC and a -3 to their attack rolls would. That is the way I read it.

I do like the idea of a aura lowering their saves though.

KristovK
04-08-2008, 06:01 AM
Knight of the Chalice in 3.0 had a similiar ability, he could use his Turn Undead to stun Demons. And there was the Holy Radiance feat that actually let you damage all undead within a 10' radius for 1d4 damage per round, also from 3.0. Not sure of those made it into 3.5 though, bit of an overpowered PrC all in all, but nothing extraordinary by 3.0 standards :) Easy enough to convert to 3.5 or DDO, they could make it an enhancement line easy enough.

Knight of the Chalice enhancement line -

Rank 1: 1 AP, paladin level 8, requires Smite Evil I, passive
Demonslaying +1 To Hit/1d6 Good damage combat bonuses vs Chaotic Evil Outsiders.
Censure Demons - Use turning attempts to stun Chaotic Evil Outsiders.

Rank 2: 2 AP, paladin level 12, Requires Smite Evil II, passive
Demonslaying +2 To Hit/2d6 Good damage combat bonuses against Chaotic Evil Outsiders.

Rank 3: 3 AP, paladin level 14, Requires Smite Evil III, passive
Demonslaying +3 To Hit/2d6 Good + 1d6 Lawful damage combat bonuses against Chaotic Evil Outsiders.
Consecrated Aura - Chaotic Evil Outsiders within 20ft receive a -2 penalty to attack and AC.

Rank 4: 4 AP, paladin level 16, Requires Smite Evil IV, passive
Demonslaying +4 To Hit/2d6 Good + 2d6 Lawful combat bonuses against Chaotic Evil Outsiders.
Holy Aura - +4 Dodge AC bonus, +4 Saves, SR 25, protection from possession per Prot From Evil, melee attackers blinded(DC 20 fort save) on hit, only works against Chaotic Evil Outsiders.

Pretty simple, requirements aren't overboard for the powers granted, and it's not a massive dps boost, but does make the Paladin more effective against CE outsiders, something they SHOULD be more effective against by rights. The combat bonuses would stack with whatever weapon the Paladin is using, and it's a passive deal instead of clicky. The Holy Aura would ONLY pertain to the Paladin and stacks with the Consecrated Aura.