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View Full Version : To the Devs, RE: Raids



Kaldaka
04-05-2008, 10:49 AM
Devs,

I realize that raids are supposed to be high level content, but I really want to see a low level raid. There are so many active players in my guild that when we run lowbies we always seem to have some people left out. I honestly feel a lowbie raid is warranted at this stage of the game.

What I would like to see is perhaps a level 6 (or so) raiding quest, in the same manner as Tempest Spine. That quest has always been my favorite raid, for the simple matter that there is no flagging, no timer, and no warded chest. True the "uber" items come out of the other raids' warded chests (and now ingredients), but meh, they simply aren't as much fun.

IMO not nearly enough attention is given to the low end stuff. I mean when we all start rolling Monks, we are going to have to grind through the same Waterworks, STK, Tangleroot, etc. Wouldn't a level 6 or so Raid be fun?

Any thoughts??

Angelus_dead
04-05-2008, 01:48 PM
I realize that raids are supposed to be high level content, but I really want to see a low level raid. There are so many active players in my guild that when we run lowbies we always seem to have some people left out. I honestly feel a lowbie raid is warranted at this stage of the game.

Simple answer:
You already have Vault of Night as a low level raid. Why isn't that enough for you? Oh, maybe you didn't know that level 8-10 is low level. Well, it is.

Longer answer:
Adding low level raids would be a mistake. The word "raid" means the quest has slots for more players, and possibly also is on a reentry timer. Both of those factors increase the organizational burden of starting the quest- it simply takes longer to get 10-12 people into a group than 4-6. Characters at low level have a low tolerance for organizational burden... they are generally leveling up pretty fast, and don't want to wait around to fill a raid group when they could be running Delera elite, or schedule ahead to have a raid in a few days when they could be running Stormcleave elite.

So, hypothetically if a new level 6 raid were added, the two most likely outcomes:
1. If it has good loot: The raid is ignored by level 5-7 characters, and played by level 9-11 characters in small groups of 4-6 to get named items and minor XP.
2. If it has bad loot: The raid is ignored by level 5-7 characters, and played by level 14-16 characters to get favor.

It is unlikely a new level 6 raid would actually be played much by level 6 characters... there's too much tendency for Level Creep. You'd put up an LFM, get a few level 6, and then a level 7 would want to join. The reaction: "Hey, he's only 1 level above us, and he'll make it easier, take him". Then more level 7s come in, because "Hey, we already have a level 7, so why not more?". Then a level 8 joins, because the level 7 guys say "Hey, he's only 1 level above us". Pretty soon the level 6 guys are outnumbered in their own party, and won't be able to contribute much in the quest compared to more powerful characters.

It would take serious LFM discipline to avoid level-creeping the party upwards like that. Only a careful and patient leader could avoid it- it won't happen naturally.


What I would like to see is perhaps a level 6 (or so) raiding quest, in the same manner as Tempest Spine. That quest has always been my favorite raid
Tempest Spine is a pretty bad quest, and its mistakes should be avoided in the future.

It's a quest that's simply an extra-large dungeon with slightly wider than average hallways, which otherwise is not different from a regular 6 man dungeon. You encounter monsters at the same frequency as 6-man, so you mow over them in an undifferentiated blob of characters standing on top of each other. By far, the most important challenge in Tempest Spine is keeping the mob of players moving together without stragglers being left behind here and there.


IMO not nearly enough attention is given to the low end stuff. I mean when we all start rolling Monks, we are going to have to grind through the same Waterworks, STK, Tangleroot, etc. Wouldn't a level 6 or so Raid be fun?
History shows the opposite. Look at what happened with the new low-level quests added to DDO after release- they hardly ever get played.

When we all start rolling monks, most players will be wondering how their monk does compared to their other characters at quests like Gianthold Tor and Rainbow in the Dark. That will be the subject of interest, so they will advance monks no slower than they do any other characters. And once at high level, there's no going back to being a lowbie again.

Kromize
04-05-2008, 02:10 PM
hmm, I think they need to add a level 4 raid, and make it kinda like the devil assault quest, but make it lvl 6 on hard, and 8 on elite. :P Would be cool.

Or, as I suggested a long time ago, which I think other people have also suggested, add an option for raid parties to go in normal quests, but make the quest harder. Something like solo normal hard elite RAID (:

dunno tho, lots of work to get something like this right...

Aesop
04-05-2008, 02:27 PM
Um I disagree with 90% of what AD said. Especially the part about TS... Oddly enough TS is one of many peoples favorite quests. If GH didn't have such over blown XP then TS would probably get run a little more.

He probably isn't too far off on the low level raid things though I woulld actually like having a lower level raid... maybe make it an extension off of the Waterworks series .

Raithe
04-05-2008, 03:00 PM
It's a quest that's simply an extra-large dungeon with slightly wider than average hallways, which otherwise is not different from a regular 6 man dungeon. You encounter monsters at the same frequency as 6-man, so you mow over them in an undifferentiated blob of characters standing on top of each other. By far, the most important challenge in Tempest Spine is keeping the mob of players moving together without stragglers being left behind here and there.

Yes, because undifferentiated blobs of characters standing on top of each other are a rare sight to behold in front of a Shroud portal. Or while running up the Twilight Forge side corridors to kill elemental gun-wielding ogres. Or while running through the narrow corridors of the Vault of Night slicing up warforged and undead. Or while mass healing in the Demon Queen's lair.

It's not Tempest Spine that is a bad quest. It's raid quests in general. The only time twelve heroic characters working together really makes sense in a fantasy adventure is on a large area battlefield with several different fronts. Even then, unless there is some strategic reason for defending different terrain features (or corny quest objectives), the guerilla style warfare of D&D gaming would make loose clustering more efficient anyway.

The developer's fixation on 12-man raids and the corresponding overpowered loot is one of the chief reasons that DDO didn't do well. If I were the OP, I probably wouldn't be asking for more coffin nails.

HumanRogue
04-05-2008, 03:07 PM
The only time twelve heroic characters working together really makes sense in a fantasy adventure is on a large area battlefield with several different fronts.

That would be a cool raid.

Angelus_dead
04-05-2008, 03:25 PM
Yes, because undifferentiated blobs of characters standing on top of each other are a rare sight to behold in front of a Shroud portal.
That happens often, because phase 1 of The Shroud isn't well-designed either.


Or while running up the Twilight Forge side corridors to kill elemental gun-wielding ogres. Or while running through the narrow corridors of the Vault of Night slicing up warforged and undead. Or while mass healing in the Demon Queen's lair.
True. None of that happens with any frequency. In Twilight Forge, Vault of Night, or Court of Laliat you generally see the players split up to solve different objectives at the same time.


It's not Tempest Spine that is a bad quest. It's raid quests in general. The only time twelve heroic characters working together really makes sense in a fantasy adventure is on a large area battlefield with several different fronts.
Yes, that's the usual way these things happen in fantasy, and that would make a better template for DDO raids: multiple jobs that need to be done by different groups. Of course there are problems with that approach, but they're solvable.

Kaldaka
04-05-2008, 03:26 PM
The developer's fixation on 12-man raids and the corresponding overpowered loot is one of the chief reasons that DDO didn't do well. If I were the OP, I probably wouldn't be asking for more coffin nails.


Hmm ... All I want is a quest like Tempest spine for lowbies, I just want 12 people to be able to quest together at once, I don't want a warded chest.

Besides, what overpowered loot comes outta Tempest Spine? Elemental Breastplate?? Maelstrom?? LMAO :D

redoubt
04-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Just let 12 people go into proof is in the poison and change nothing else... intsa-raid! That'd be one. :D

(Only kinda kididng.)

Angelus_dead
04-05-2008, 03:31 PM
All I want is a quest like Tempest spine for lowbies, I just want 12 people to be able to quest together at once
Why do you think it's good to have 12 players in one quest?

redoubt
04-05-2008, 03:37 PM
Why do you think it's good to have 12 players in one quest?

I think it was in the first or second sentence of the OP. Its a social thing. He wants to get all his lowbie guild members into ONE party and go do something.

I can sympathize. Having 8 guild member on and only taking 6 kinda sucks.

AkromaAoW
04-05-2008, 03:39 PM
I'm on the record in multiple places as not being a raid fan (although I do like many preraids). The whole "enter the room and kill the big thing" format just doesn't work for me. However, if they were all like Tempest Spine, tough quests that are run like normal quests with 12 people, I am certain I would be a big raid fan. I'd be for these at all levels. Seems to me, I remember hearing something about a quest or two in the harbor being raids back in beta. Can someone who was in beta confirm or dispute this?

Kaldaka
04-05-2008, 03:40 PM
Why do you think it's good to have 12 players in one quest?

Read my original post:


There are so many active players in my guild that when we run lowbies we always seem to have some people left out.


A great deal of the joy for me in this game is playing with my friends. I don't like picking and choosing them down to only six. Do you have more than 6 on at once that you want to play with? And if you do then do you try to get a raid together so you can play with them all? When I'm on my lowbies there is NO option that allows me to play with all of them at once.

AkromaAoW
04-05-2008, 03:42 PM
Why do you think it's good to have 12 players in one quest?

It's nice to get together with a dozen people at once. A raid is a particularly nice way to get together with more than 5 other guildies :).

Kaldaka
04-05-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm on the record in multiple places as not being a raid fan (although I do like many preraids). The whole "enter the room and kill the big thing" format just doesn't work for me. However, if they were all like Tempest Spine, tough quests that are run like normal quests with 12 people, I am certain I would be a big raid fan. I'd be for these at all levels. Seems to me, I remember hearing something about a quest or two in the harbor being raids back in beta. Can someone who was in beta confirm or dispute this?

Its great to know I can always count on you bro to have my back :D

AkromaAoW
04-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Its great to know I can always count on you bro to have my back :D

:)

Snoggy
04-05-2008, 04:23 PM
Simple answer:
You already have Vault of Night as a low level raid. Why isn't that enough for you? Oh, maybe you didn't know that level 8-10 is low level. Well, it is.

He said level 6 (or so) and you shoot back that Vault of Night fits what he's looking for?

What?

That's like asking for french fries and being handed tater tots. They're both potato snacks. Yay.

sirgog
04-05-2008, 04:46 PM
I'd be a fan of adding one, and only one, such raid to the game.

During peak times, when you could find a raid party of level 4-6 characters, it'd be a blast. Just like TS is now.

Off-peak times, it'd be impossible to get a group for, unless you are good enough to power through it with 6-8 characters. It can be hard enough to fill non-raid parties at these levels at times.

Rav'n
04-05-2008, 06:30 PM
I have to agree with the OP, there are WAY too many times when my guild has 8-10 players on, all wanting to run together. I mean come on...isn't that why you join a guild in the first place?

I love the idea of Solo-Normal-Hard-Elite-Raid!

Kaldaka
04-06-2008, 07:10 AM
I love the idea of Solo-Normal-Hard-Elite-Raid!

Hmm ...

I think it was posted before that Tempest Spine is just like a regular quest only with the hallways enlarged to fit so many people. That would be tough to do do a lot of Harbor/Market Quests. What I would like to see is a new quest, a good suggestion might be to have it based on the explorer area Searing Heights, make it extra long with large hallways, something fun and new. I really like Proof is in the Poison as a relatively new lowbie quest, it was fun and challenging when it came out. I absolutely run my lowbies through it as it has great XP!! I don't see why a new lowbie Raid quest is so different than adding dungeons like that one.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-06-2008, 07:53 AM
Why do you think it's good to have 12 players in one quest?

You're right, lets get rid of raids all together. A large group of people would never want to quest together.


I agree with the OP. Past surveys have showed that the majority of people agree with the OP. Past survey's have also shown that AD's feelings about TS are in the minority as TS is a favorite raid for many. Actually I disagree with most of what AD said above. Low level raids would be great for the game.