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geoffhanna
04-04-2008, 02:25 PM
There is a neglected faction in Stormreach: the Wayfinders. I propose that we formalize their presence by making them a full-on Favor faction specializing in … Wayfinding!.

You earn Wayfinder Favor by completing exploration area quests – slayer, explorer, rare encounters. You see the quests in your Patron window like any other favor quests. Favor rewards are minor but fun things you want to have but are not so awesome that you feel you must have them.

The intent of this proposal is to encourage use of the exploration areas by displaying overall exploration progress and by providing additional (minor) reward milestones. I am also proposing a solution to the /death Meridia teleporter, but only as an option; the rest of the idea would be fun even if the /death solution is rejected.

I am splitting this into three posts to encourage readability. If you already know you hate the idea, you can jump straight to flamethrower mode without bothering to read further.

geoffhanna
04-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Earning Wayfinder Favor

Explorer and rare encounter quests must be fully completed to get Favor. There is no graduated favor for these quest types, you either have the favor or not
Slayer quests follow a N/H/E-style graduated paradigm: I propose awarding (minimal) Wayfinder Favor for 750 kills, more for 1500, and more again for 3000
Exploration areas that have more than one type of slayer award Wayfinder Favor for each type.
Favor amounts scale with the difficulty of the exploration area; Waterworks provides the least while the Vale of Twilight provides the most

Example:
In the Sands of Menechtarun, there would be one favor amount awarded for finding all of the exploration points. Another amount awarded for defeating all of the rare encounters. And nine separate awards for slaying.

Changes
Part of the intent is to propose something that is easier to implement because it utilizes existing subsystems. Obviously I can not possibly know if I am guessing subsystems correctly (nor do my guesses really matter in any case). I would hope that if the kernel of the idea is reasonable then the devs will figure out better ways to make it happen. But some changes would have to be made:

A new Faction appears on the Patron UI
Many new quests appear on the Patron UI. It would seem to make sense to prefix them by exploration area so that all available Cerulean Hills (for example) favor can be viewed contiguously. Plus all Wayfinder quests would also sort contiguously by Patron, right?
Level caps would have to work like they do in regular quests. You can advance and complete a Wayfinder Favor quest at any level but do not earn XP unless everyone is in the correct level range
I am not certain about this but I believe that at least one exploration area (WW?) only allows slayer up to 1500 but they may all need to allow 3000?
Other changes may be necessary depending on the type of rewards available

I’m not going to post a table of favor by quest, but I do believe it should not be possible to get 150 Wayfinder Favor without doing most of the exploration content up to about level 12 (but probably not requiring players to have any 3000-kill slayers completed).

I am splitting this into three posts to encourage readability. Favor rewards follow in the next message.

geoffhanna
04-04-2008, 02:28 PM
The rewards need to be in keeping with the concept of the Wayfinders organization. To me, this means travel and exploration. I present two alternatives here, both of which I think would be a lot of fun. One proposal solves something I view as a problem (but I acknowledge that not everyone views the remoteness of Meridia as a problem).

Option 1: Stackable Skill Bump
I see Wayfinder skills as Search, Spot, Listen and Swim. At 75 points, the recipient receives a bound one-use consumable that permanently applies a (+3? +5?) stacking bonus to Search and Listen. At 150 they receive another bound consumable that applies the same bonus for Spot and Swim. Other combinations are certainly possible, for instance a small (+1? +2?) bump to all four skills at 75 and another small but comprehensive bump at 150. Or an entirely different set of skills and numbers, the key concept is to keep it Wayfindery, and fun, and useful enough to be worth getting, and not so important that anyone feels they MUST have it. Note that DD, OL and UMD are omitted from this list on purpose.

Option 2: Tavern Journeys
The Wayfinder Foundation teaches the recipient a teleport-like ability to zone directly into certain pre-selected Wayfinder-frequented taverns. This ability can be used once per rest and is represented by a bound (Necklace? Ring? Quaffed vial?) and is activated like any other clicky. This is not intended to replace Teleport; it doesn’t go to the same places. Nor does it replace the House P reward. If necessary (or easier), the rewards at 75 and at 150 can be different clicky devices:

At 75 Favor the recipient is able to zone directly to:

One Eared Bugbear @ Tangleroot Gorge
Salty Wench @ Three Barrel Cove
Eye of Kol Koran @ Sorrowdusk Isle
Delvers Canteen @ Ruins of Threnal
Ever Full Flagon(*) @ nearest to Atarexia’s Haven

At 150 Favor the recipient is also able to zone directly to:

(Laina‘s grudging tavern of bitterness?) @ Restless Isles
(Raff’s tavern?) @ Sands of Menechtarun
(Morksarn’s tavern) @ Ruins of Gianthold
(Brand’s tavern?) @ Orchard of the Macabre
(Don’t know name) @ Vale of Twilight

(*) this really isn’t very nearby. What if the Ever Full Flagon was replaced with an actual tavern/barkeeper dockside at Atarexia’s Haven?

I prefer option 2 but mainly I like the idea of Wayfinder Favor tied to exploration areas and would hate it if that concept got lost as people firestormed over the /death to Meridia thing.

Sorry this went so long. Now discuss :)

sparkling_diamond_l
04-04-2008, 02:50 PM
I think this is a really good idea. I was a bit sad to find out that you didn't get favor for the outdoor areas when they first came out. I can understand why that it, but I also think that it wouldn't be a big deal to include said favor. I'm not really sure what I would want the rewards to be, but this is something I'd like to see happen.

Zenako
04-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Interesting concept.

Most of the low level explorer areas cap out on slayer at things like 400 or 750. It is not until you get to Sorrowdusk that it goes higher. But that is ok, perhaps you do not need to. Slayer favor is perhaps not really in the keeping of the Wayfinder concept. also right now the Waterworks has no Explorer spots.

I think the second option is in some way the better one, the thing it rewards the player with is time, saving time getting from A to B, while the first option for the Skill boost is attractive, it might require looking at the synergies and seeing how it might affect certain things, and make somethings too easy (for the design intent) by giving another boost that had not been planned on when those difficulties of various things were first established.

I would think a more dynamic Wayfinder boost would be once you hit a certain point to activate the travel boon, that to activate any further spots you needed to complete the explorers in that region. I would only see it being necessary to complete those areas that contain taverns associated with them, so no need to complete places like CH or SH or even WW. I would love to see an underwater quest take off from the docks out on Axtarias (sp) Haven for example. Put a little safe zone/tavern right near the two quest givers.

Turial
04-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Cool idea.

Dimicron
04-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Two questions:

1) Where do I sign up? :)

2) What happens if this is released after you are too high a level to get xp from an explorer area? Or if you advance in level and miss out on a point of favor or three from not enough exploring?

Zenako
04-04-2008, 02:55 PM
Two questions:

1) Where do I sign up? :)

2) What happens if this is released after you are too high a level to get xp from an explorer area? Or if you advance in level and miss out on a point of favor or three from not enough exploring?

Changes to the Explorere areas per the latest WDA means you WILL be able to do them for credit albeit perhaps 0 EXP

JFeenstra
04-04-2008, 02:57 PM
cool concept, the teleport would be nice

one problem though is that it's stuff you'd have to do at level and couldn't come back to once you advance

Lorien_the_First_One
04-04-2008, 02:59 PM
2) What happens if this is released after you are too high a level to get xp from an explorer area? Or if you advance in level and miss out on a point of favor or three from not enough exploring?

In mod 7 you will now be able to complete those explorers even if you are too high level for xp so it would be like any other low level quest, no xp but you could get the favor for it.

I'm not sure about he particular rewards, or even if the forums are the best place to think of a balanced reward, but the concept of favor for explorer areas is a good one. This would be great for solo types and perma death groups, both of which I understand enjoy the explorer areas for levelling but don't get anything for the favor side which leaves them short.

Lithic
04-04-2008, 02:59 PM
I like it (Especially since I like completing the explorer quests). The extra teleport option is probably the most reasonable as permanent stacking skill boosts would likely cause an uproar, even if it was for swim and listen :/

The teleport zones seem fine (lower level destinations for the low level favor).

As for point allocation, I think there should be 1pt per 'level' achieved for slayer (one at 10,25,50,100,200,400,750,1500,3000,5000,7500). If this isnt feasable, then award points at the last 3 kill count steps for norm/hard/elite. On Tangleroot for example, you would get norm at 400kills, hard at 750, and elite at 1500 (completion).

For the explorer and rares, just give credit at 1/2 (norm), 3/4(hard) and completion (elite)

Albel
04-04-2008, 03:00 PM
I think that permanent skill boosts are not a good idea, it's a powergaming point, anyone who uses those skill would feel that to be the best they can be they must get that favor award, which contradicts the intention of the OP that the wayfinder rewards be something nice to have but not required.

So I'd suggest sticking to the travel aspect. Other than that I like the idea, and will post again once I've had a chance to think of anything else to contribute.

Albel
04-04-2008, 03:04 PM
As for point allocation, I think there should be 1pt per 'level' achieved for slayer (one at 10,25,50,100,200,400,750,1500,3000,5000,7500). If this isnt feasable, then award points at the last 3 kill count steps for norm/hard/elite. On Tangleroot for example, you would get norm at 400kills, hard at 750, and elite at 1500 (completion).

For the explorer and rares, just give credit at 1/2 (norm), 3/4(hard) and completion (elite)

I like this idea for assigning favor for these, but keep in mind that the total favor for the area should be dependent on how many kills it actually takes to get to the end of the kill counts, (ie. TR with it's 1500 cap might give 9, but GH with it's 7500 cap might give 12 for each slayer, actual numbers would need to be balanced of course)

Dariuss
04-04-2008, 03:16 PM
yah i like that idea alot

being able to port to the different taverns at will would be VERY handy

JFeenstra
04-04-2008, 03:24 PM
this would also allow 3000 favor to be possible, and possibly another reward for that?

GreyRogue
04-04-2008, 03:49 PM
I like it (Especially since I like completing the explorer quests). The extra teleport option is probably the most reasonable as permanent stacking skill boosts would likely cause an uproar, even if it was for swim and listen :/

The teleport zones seem fine (lower level destinations for the low level favor).

As for point allocation, I think there should be 1pt per 'level' achieved for slayer (one at 10,25,50,100,200,400,750,1500,3000,5000,7500). If this isnt feasable, then award points at the last 3 kill count steps for norm/hard/elite. On Tangleroot for example, you would get norm at 400kills, hard at 750, and elite at 1500 (completion).

For the explorer and rares, just give credit at 1/2 (norm), 3/4(hard) and completion (elite)
I completely agree with the points in this post, except that I would require completion of explorers and rares to get any favor for those. From a "let's not make explorer areas the end-all of total favor" standpoint, I would probably prefer awarding favor at the last 3 slayer goals, whatever they might be (only goes up to like 400 in Waterworks, for instance), but I could certainly live with 1 point per goal. Either would be better in my opinion than having a static number (like 3000) and requiring people to go through Waterworks eleventy billion times if they want to cap out Wayfinder favor from there. That would not be hard, but it would be terribly tedious.

Overall, this is one of the best player ideas I've seen in a long time. I really like it and I hope the devs are listening!

Missing_Minds
04-04-2008, 04:14 PM
cool concept, the teleport would be nice

one problem though is that it's stuff you'd have to do at level and couldn't come back to once you advance

check the WDA, they are changing it to where we can continue to get credit. Granted at a lower xp rate based on level, but you can still complete it.


OP, love the idea and it fits the flavor of DDO so well.

Missing_Minds
04-04-2008, 04:17 PM
I think that permanent skill boosts are not a good idea, it's a powergaming point, anyone who uses those skill would feel that to be the best they can be they must get that favor award, which contradicts the intention of the OP that the wayfinder rewards be something nice to have but not required.

So I'd suggest sticking to the travel aspect. Other than that I like the idea, and will post again once I've had a chance to think of anything else to contribute.

They could make it to where it is only a +1 to the 4 skills they have listed. Given the skills, that would not over power or over blance the game at all.

However, I much prefer the travel option.

Lithic
04-04-2008, 04:24 PM
If they do go ahead with the travel option, PLEASE dont make it an item we have to click. Make it appear in the feats page or something as my poor rogue already has 90% of her 5 bags full of stuff before going into any quest. Its so bad the house P trinket will likely soon be left on the floor.

cdbd3rd
04-04-2008, 05:03 PM
A lot of well organized ideas there. Maybe the powers can glean some inspiration from it.

geoffhanna
04-05-2008, 09:06 AM
Thanks for the nice comments!

Although I always read the WDA I somehow missed that devs are already implementing the change that allows anyone to complete exploration quests regardless of level. So that's one less thing they'd need to change to implement Wayfinder Favor! (yay)

I know about the mismatches in top level slayer counts by area. But I don't know all the exact numbers (is 750 for tangleroot? Or is that just the most I had patience to achieve?) and besides, the original post was already too long.


...award points at the last 3 kill count steps for norm/hard/elite. On Tangleroot for example, you would get norm at 400kills, hard at 750, and elite at 1500 (completion).

I wish I'd said it like Lithic did. :)


this would also allow 3000 favor to be possible, and possibly another reward for that?

I thought of that too but I felt that it goes outside the scope of this. I imagine the devs already know what the next big favor reward will be and when we will achieve it.

Mad_Bombardier
04-05-2008, 11:26 AM
I like the idea, but think it's too much for doing very little (Wilderness Areas are largely fluff). And we have already have the Free Agents for favor. They could just as easily rename existing Free Agents as Wayfinders and rework the 75 and 150 favor rewards.

Dariuss
04-05-2008, 12:12 PM
I like the idea, but think it's too much for doing very little (Wilderness Areas are largely fluff). And we have already have the Free Agents for favor. They could just as easily rename existing Free Agents as Wayfinders and rework the 75 and 150 favor rewards.

thye are fluff, for sure, however some of the quests can be quite hard to complete....

i would say that getting the exploration points is the easiest, since you can do it in one trip through if you or a party member knows the way.

Getting the rare encounters can be a bit more challenging... say 5 or 6 trips through the area? That, estimating of course, a good 4 or 5 hours probably?

Getting slayer comes right along with those 5 or 6 trips through of course, but i'd estimate you onmly get.... 200 or so slayers each trip? LEt's say 250, which would be 6 runs through the vale to get 1500 slayer (or actually, 12 trips to get both 1500's)...

that's not counting the 3000 slayer or whatever is next....

So ssuming that the explorer areas are 'easier' than a quest, the time taken to get all the completions in them is probably more than the time taken to run a quest n-h-e.

redoubt
04-06-2008, 07:54 PM
Explorers and rares are easy to define.

Where to reward the slayers is harder. I think my sorc is somewhere over 2000 kill of one type in the vale with the next goal 3000ish. The slayers seem to scale pretty quick. Something like 10, 25, 100, 250, 500, 1000. I'd say pick like the 4,5,6 of the series. Its not the easiest ones, but should complete around the same time you finish getting all the rares. I would not want to see it set up that you complete the rares and explorers and then slay the entire area 100 more times to get the slayer favor.

Overall, I think this is an awesome idea! Props to the OP!

I like both the concept and rewards you have proposed. Even the pluses to skills are not in the most sought after skills and are minor bonuses, yet cool. They also make a lot of sense.

Laith
04-06-2008, 08:04 PM
i don't really look forward to farming adventure zones for favor.

really, my only beef with the proposed system is that it includes slayer in the multiple thousand range.

rfachini
04-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Good idea.
I wouldn't give any favor beyond maybe 1/2 the max kill number. Killing a few thousand things in each zone is just too much of a grind.
I also wouldn't add yet another clicky to keep in your inventory. We have too much in there already. I'd put a Wayfinder in several areas. Each Wayfinder will port you to any other Wayfinder if you have the faction.

geoffhanna
04-09-2008, 07:45 AM
... I also wouldn't add yet another clicky to keep in your inventory. We have too much in there already. I'd put a Wayfinder in several areas. Each Wayfinder will port you to any other Wayfinder if you have the faction.

Nice! And it seems like it would be the kind of thing that can be done without major code or artwork changes. But who knows, sometimes the simplest seeming thing is very hard to implement. Still... good thinking! :D