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JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 11:19 AM
so I was looking at this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128359) and like it. Only problem is it is talking about tomes and stuff. Does anyone know a build similar to the linked one with out tomes? Or can you make any suggestion to the link as to how to build this as close to with out tomes?

thanks

Arianrhod
04-04-2008, 12:13 PM
Uh..that link didn't work for me. Did the build have a name? Could look it up that way.

Delt
04-04-2008, 12:41 PM
Just remove one of the +2 tomes from the equation (probably the Con tome I guess, but you could drop the STR tome). And forget about the +3 CHA tome. One +2 Tome is easily achieved from favor and +1 Tomes can be bought cheap off the AH.

Still, I wouldn't recommend this build without tomes. Hell, I don't personally like this build with tomes either (squishy squishy).

The Taalisyn build is similar, so you could always copy that (just drop out a few feats if you don't want to take the fighter levels).

JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 12:57 PM
Uh..that link didn't work for me. Did the build have a name? Could look it up that way.

sorry i copied the wrong link lol.. I updated it with the working link.

skraus1
04-04-2008, 02:10 PM
The Taalisyn build is similar, so you could always copy that (just drop out a few feats if you don't want to take the fighter levels).

The taal build is a melee focused build that probably shouldn't be casting many offensive spells. The deady spellsinger build is a casting build that can melee. They have about 24 hp difference between them. They are not similar builds or concepts in my opinion.

The opp is apparently looking for a spellcasting then melee sort of build. The icy kind build is near the same although more melee focus and a little less spellcasting.

For that concept, which not everyone likes, these are two of the better builds.

+2 tomes appear to be completely optional in both builds. The builds will work without them. However, the +1 dex tome is essential on both builds because it allows you to take itwf and gtwf. +1 tomes are easy to come by and are reasonably priced.

Delt
04-04-2008, 02:27 PM
The taal build is a melee focused build that probably shouldn't be casting many offensive spells. The deady spellsinger build is a casting build that can melee. They have about 24 hp difference between them. They are not similar builds or concepts in my opinion.

The opp is apparently looking for a spellcasting then melee sort of build. The icy kind build is near the same although more melee focus and a little less spellcasting.

For that concept, which not everyone likes, these are two of the better builds.

+2 tomes appear to be completely optional in both builds. The builds will work without them. However, the +1 dex tome is essential on both builds because it allows you to take itwf and gtwf. +1 tomes are easy to come by and are reasonably priced.


Meh, you might be right about what he wants, melee with casting....still, both do the TWF melee. I assumed that was more important to him for some unknown reason (and right or wrong, if he wants to melee well, he's better off off with Taal...and trying to do both, especially without tomes, is gonna end badly anyway).

Taal's build is one of the few that I like, I tend to block out the others - so listen to skraus not me.

maddmatt70
04-04-2008, 02:43 PM
The taal build is a melee focused build that probably shouldn't be casting many offensive spells. The deady spellsinger build is a casting build that can melee. They have about 24 hp difference between them. They are not similar builds or concepts in my opinion.


That is why on the Taal build unless he is going for suptwf which may or may not be coming into the game (if it requires a 19 dex) I would go with a different stat distrubtion. 16 st, 15 dex ,16 con, 8 wis, 8 int, 12 cha. The hit points now are 40 more then the deadly spellsinger build. If the OP wants twf melee the Taal build is an excellent build. The other twf melee build that I would recommend for twf is a dwarf with 17 str, 16 con, 15 dex, 8 wis, 8 int, 11 cha.

JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 02:49 PM
I want to melee and cc about equity. Basically CC then melee away. Buff up my group with songs and have healing/scrolls as back up heal/rez.
I don't want to be a tank, I want to do just enough damage where the tanks can keep the agro, but not so little i might as well be throwing feathers at them.

If i was going to give an order to it it would be

#1 melee/cc
#2 buffs
#3 back up healer/rezer


I actually went to TThammer and read up on the "Master Bard" and LOVE the way it sounds. I would only change mental toughness to just toughness. Unless I did my math wrong it would switch me form 84 hp to 103 by lvl 14 and SP form 573 to 489.

I really like TWF but how would you implement it with this build? http://ddo.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=464

maddmatt70
04-04-2008, 03:08 PM
I want to melee and cc about equity. Basically CC then melee away. Buff up my group with songs and have healing/scrolls as back up heal/rez.
I don't want to be a tank, I want to do just enough damage where the tanks can keep the agro, but not so little i might as well be throwing feathers at them.

If i was going to give an order to it it would be

#1 melee/cc
#2 buffs
#3 back up healer/rezer


I actually went to TThammer and read up on the "Master Bard" and LOVE the way it sounds. I would only change mental toughness to just toughness. Unless I did my math wrong it would switch me form 84 hp to 103 by lvl 14 and SP form 573 to 489.

I really like TWF but how would you implement it with this build? http://ddo.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=464

I don't know how experienced you are ddo. Just to relate some facts - you can't cc red names (aka end bosses and bosses) so you will be then trying to melee them, but an overriding issue for the melee/cc builds is they tend to not have enough hit points/survivability in all end boss situations, one example is the current highest two raid bosses in game. If you don't have enough survivability you will then be forced to heal (or you will die) which you will not do as well as some of the other bard builds. I don't have the foggiest idea of how many raids you plan to run or what you plan to do with your char. Maybe you plan to run 0 raids and just want to take your time running through stormreach - that is up to you.

JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 03:28 PM
ok so out of the 2. Which build would you choose and what would you change about it?
Build 1: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128359
Build 2: http://ddo.tentonhammer.com/index.ph...splay&ceid=464

rimble
04-04-2008, 03:35 PM
+2 tomes appear to be completely optional in both builds. The builds will work without them. However, the +1 dex tome is essential on both builds because it allows you to take itwf and gtwf. +1 tomes are easy to come by and are reasonably priced.

Building upon this, with Feat respecs it doesn't really matter a whole lot. I just started a TWF character with a 15 Dex...at the least I won't get my +2 Dex until 1750 favor, but it's pretty much assured (and I'm hoping my 16 Sorc doing Reaver raids might get one before then). After that point I can go back and respec into ITWF and GTWF, I'm sure I'll get along fine before then. The only tome that REALLY matters in any build is an Int tome eaten at level 1 for you to meet your various skill point expenditure requirements that you set for yourself...everything else you can fix retroactively. It may take some work, but it's not a build-breaker in any regard.

So, basically, don't sweat the tomes here. The builds being discussed aren't based on a +Int tome, so you'll be fine, eventually.

geezee
04-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Einer Mal's build is far superior to the one on TTH. You may consider starting with 15 STR and 13 CON instead of 16 and 12.

skraus1
04-04-2008, 03:46 PM
ok so out of the 2. Which build would you choose and what would you change about it?
Build 1: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128359
Build 2: http://ddo.tentonhammer.com/index.ph...splay&ceid=464

Although you link doesn't work, the master bard build on the tentonhammer is a very poor one imo and is at least 2 mods outdated...and probably sucked then too. A weapon finesse, low con bard with dodge? Yuck! Realizing this was the "master" bard made me feel dirty.

The deadly spellsinger build is much much better, although as you've already probably figured out not everyone likes that one either because of lingering doubts over the usefulness of non-specialized bard CC and lack of hp for meleeing. However, this build is easily superior to the "master" bard.

JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 03:55 PM
ST: 16
DX: 13
CO: 12
IN: 11
WZ: 8
CH: 18
=78

This is what im planing on starting with. With the 11 Intel leave me with enough points to max umd and preform?

Arianrhod
04-04-2008, 04:02 PM
One thing you'll discover quickly, if you haven't already, is that trying to land any offensive spell with a saving throw is really hard if you haven't maxed every possible way to add to the save DC (max cha, enhancements, feats & gear designed to improve casting). This is what people are getting at in telling you you'll be disappointed if you try to be good at both casting and melee. It's the nature of the game that you really do have to choose one or the other (especially if you don't have to tomes/raid gear/etc. to make up for any lack), because it's balanced to provide some challenge for those who do specialize. My first bard had 14 cha...perfectly adequate for a PnP bard, assuming a couple stat increases eventually to be able to cast 6th level spells. Not so in DDO. Took me till about 3rd level to realize I was never going to land an offensive spell, and rework her to be a buffer/healer. She's inefficient, but adaptable...as long as she doesn't try to tank any bosses or do any serious crowd control ;)

Not trying to discourage you; if anyone can "do it all", it's a bard. But if you're looking to lead the kill count and still set the whole dungeon dancing....well, it's just not likely ;)

Delt
04-04-2008, 04:02 PM
I can already tell Jack wants to do way more with his first bard than he will actually reasonably be able to achieve. The best advice anyone can give him is "Forget about melee for now, build a pure caster/buffer bard because it sounds like that's what you want most". If you actually must hit something, don't worry - you can Hold stuff and beat it stupid if you feel the need.

With that in mind, I don't have a build for you. But it's not especially complicated...Human or Dwarf if you have 32 pt builds unlocked, Drow if you don't. Max CHA, dump Dex (and Wis too if Human, if you want and level with Force of Personality - dump it at 16), keep CON healthy and the rest is up to you (more int = more skills maxxed if you enjoy flips, haggle, etc). Plenty of builds on the forum if you need help on skills/feats.

The truth is, Bards have multiple things they can focus on - but the more you try to do, the less effective you are. There are builds here that can claim to 'do it all', but they can't...are more precisely, they are just mediocre and ineffective at everything. You can't cc, buff and melee great end game on a single bard build and anyone that tells you different is either lying or has a vastly inferior definition of "great" than some of us.

skraus1
04-04-2008, 04:42 PM
The truth is, Bards have multiple things they can focus on - but the more you try to do, the less effective you are. There are builds here that can claim to 'do it all', but they can't...are more precisely, they are just mediocre and ineffective at everything. You can't cc, buff and melee great end game on a single bard build and anyone that tells you different is either lying or has a vastly inferior definition of "great" than some of us.

Sadly, I pretty much agree, but I'm not sure that being mediocre at everything means you suck at everything. That is more a mentality than anything. However, in my opinion it's much easier to build a respectable melee bard with decent traps capabilities, for example, than make a bard that rocks in both melee and offensive casting.

Opponents in the vale have good sr and good saves, which makes non-song based CC exceptionally costly as far as build specialization goes. The same goes for melee. Most combination builds use spell based CC to thin the ranks, as opposed to stopping them cold like a sorc, wizzie or even cleric might. Thinning the ranks can be useful depending on your playstyle, especially in soloing.

Both good melee and offensive casting are really build intensive. If you still want to make a true hybrid build, the best ones are the deadly spellsinger and the icy kind build. As hybrids, both probably will come up short at times in some areas. But that is to some extent built into the bard class. If you want to do this, as your first bard, I would follow either of them to the T. There is very little room to maneuver in those builds and therefore it should only be attempted if you really know what your doing.

JacknCoke
04-04-2008, 04:46 PM
lots of great advice here. THANK YOU ALL!

I'm accepting my 1st bard build will not be my last. But that ok. I'm going to build this one and learn from it then hopefully down the road Ill have better knowledge of the bard then I can re roll with a better understanding. Ether way i have a feeling bard is going to not only be fun but a challenge. Its definitely not a point and click click click class.

again thanks to all of you, you all helped a great deal!

EinarMal
04-05-2008, 07:53 AM
lots of great advice here. THANK YOU ALL!

I'm accepting my 1st bard build will not be my last. But that ok. I'm going to build this one and learn from it then hopefully down the road Ill have better knowledge of the bard then I can re roll with a better understanding. Ether way i have a feeling bard is going to not only be fun but a challenge. Its definitely not a point and click click click class.

again thanks to all of you, you all helped a great deal!

I think you will enjoy the build very much, you don't need the tomes or any of that stuff, and besides loot will come as you play the game. If you roll the deadly singer build, simply put your first level up into Dex (since you don't have a tome) and put the rest in charisma. That is the only change you really need to make to adjust the build for loot.

A lot of people have rolled the build and given feedback and ZERO have said the regretted it and that the build didn't work for them. I wouldn't worry too much about some of the people on this board, regardless of what they say Bards do not need 400 hit points, or even 300.

A Bard with CC abilities, fascinate, self healing, and 40 UMD with all the defensive buffs at their disposable has at least a 100 extra "effective" hit points, I think you will find it is actually a durable build, when you factor in displacement, stoneskin, fearsome, and the fact that at any time you can heal yourself for 50+ hit points instantly. At high levels once you get some funds you can also use heal scrolls with no fail, which give back 110 hit points near instantly as well.

EinarMal
04-05-2008, 07:57 AM
Sadly, I pretty much agree, but I'm not sure that being mediocre at everything means you suck at everything. That is more a mentality than anything. However, in my opinion it's much easier to build a respectable melee bard with decent traps capabilities, for example, than make a bard that rocks in both melee and offensive casting.

Opponents in the vale have good sr and good saves, which makes non-song based CC exceptionally costly as far as build specialization goes. The same goes for melee. Most combination builds use spell based CC to thin the ranks, as opposed to stopping them cold like a sorc, wizzie or even cleric might. Thinning the ranks can be useful depending on your playstyle, especially in soloing.

Both good melee and offensive casting are really build intensive. If you still want to make a true hybrid build, the best ones are the deadly spellsinger and the icy kind build. As hybrids, both probably will come up short at times in some areas. But that is to some extent built into the bard class. If you want to do this, as your first bard, I would follow either of them to the T. There is very little room to maneuver in those builds and therefore it should only be attempted if you really know what your doing.

I would just make three comments on this:

1. Any Bard that does not TWF is behind the Deadly Singer build in DPS, and is much less effective when using end game weapons like dual puncturing. So, if this build is mediocre then all two handed builds are below mediocre.

2. My build sits at 29 DC for crowd control spells and has 22 spell penetration (still need to find a greater VI item). I do not think that is mediocre, it is not maximum possible but still works quite well when using AOE type spells or Otto's irresistable dance.

3. The third point I keep making is this build is not a tank, it is an off tank DPS build much like a Rogue or Elf Ranger. There are MANY very fine Rogue and Ranger builds on those forums by very respected builders like Illuminati's Tempest Ranger II and Impaqt's death dealer Rogue that have no more hit points than this build. Literally hundreds if not more people in those threads have tried those builds and also attest to the fact that indeed you can melee with 250-300 hit points effectively. I would argue that this build is at least as durable as those builds, and has even more options when things go badly like fascinate, fear, and otto's.

My suggestion for anyone is to try it, and when you play, play it like a Rogue. Do not charge in and grab sight agro, follow the short fat Dwarf and attack the same mob they are attacking. If you learn to play like this you would be amazed at how little damage you will take with fearsome, stoneskin, and displacement. Use fascinate, and CC spells judiciously so that you are never facing more mobs then you can handle. Fear is a great spell for this and will often make the fight go much smoother with half or more of the mobs running away (usually a short distance and just standing there waiting to die). Another good trick is to charm monster one of the mobs before running in, they will agro that mob and you can pick of the rest (this is a great trick while soloing).