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Rav'n
04-04-2008, 09:49 AM
Okay.... I need to get this off my chest. THIS is my SINGLE biggest gripe in DDO!

*Stands on soapbox*
What the heck is the reason for a Robe giving you MAX DEX Bonus?? Have you guys/girls ever TRIED to Tumble in a Robe? Have you ever TRIED to Fight in a Robe?

I've fought full contact (Latex boffer and Rattan) "Two handed weapon", "Paired Weapon", "Sword and Board" & Staff. I've run thru the forests, up the hills, fought in/over/around rocks...tables... chairs. I've fought in Leather, Full Plate, Chain and Robes.

Robes are the ABSOLUTE Worst thing an Adventurer can wear!!! What happened to Padded Armor? If you're looking at Tumbling alone, I would MUCH rather wear Padded Armor than a Robe.

*Steps down and awaits for the Fireballs to commence*

Aspenor
04-04-2008, 09:50 AM
uh

Robes don't have a max dex bonus....

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 09:51 AM
exactly

MysticTheurge
04-04-2008, 09:52 AM
uh

Robes don't have a max dex bonus....

Exactly his point.

But D&D doesn't really care what kind of clothes you're wearing. If you're not in armor, you don't have a max dex bonus.

Aspenor
04-04-2008, 09:53 AM
exactly

When you have 36 dexterity and +7 armor bracers, the best thing you can possibly wear is a robe.

Padded armor you lose AC. Same with mithral chain, and leather armor.

Aspenor
04-04-2008, 09:54 AM
Exactly his point.

But D&D doesn't really care what kind of clothes you're wearing. If you're not in armor, you don't have a max dex bonus.

So then I'm lost...

Is this another "my rogue/ranger wants a shirt and pants" thread?

binnsr
04-04-2008, 09:54 AM
hopefully, the OPs issue will dissipate when we get 'real' clothes for monks (at least, thats what the last Kate Paiz interview inferred)

MysticTheurge
04-04-2008, 09:57 AM
Is this another "my rogue/ranger wants a shirt and pants" thread?

I think it's a "ZOMG! That's not realistic!!" thread.

Shaamis
04-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Don't think in actual physics, think in game balance.

A robe gives you 0 bonus to ac, so it balances this by giving you maximum use of your dexterity.

Padded armor gives you a slight armor bonus, therefore, cannot afford to give you your maximum highest dex modifiers, or it would be unbalancing.
armored bracers provide the armor bonus, and a robe gives you some of the nice additions armor provides (deathblock, fearsome, GFL, etc.) therefore if you have a high enough Dex, balance can be achieved and even surpassed

I have a drow elf rogue 35 dex wears +7 bracers and a robe, she still gets hit like she is standing still.....

i just get used to it

Aspenor
04-04-2008, 09:59 AM
I think it's a "ZOMG! That's not realistic!!" thread.

Well I find a robe more realistic than fighting devils in your skivvies!

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 10:00 AM
No.. it's not another "my Rouge/Ranger want's a pair of pant's" thread. It's a what the heck are they thinking of giving you a Max AC based off you Dex when you wear a Robe when a Robe is the absolute worst thing in the world to base anything off Dex" Thread.

I totally understand the concept of Dex 36 +7 Bracers wear a Robe= best AC RULE. What I don't get is ...

WHY???????

Alavatar
04-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Honestly, it depends on the robes.

I am guessing your "latex boffer" experience was some sort of LARP such as NERO, Alliance, Amtgard, or some such? I play one of those things as well and I don't mind running around in my robe at all.

Anyway, cloth items in D&D and DDO do not have Max. Dex for many reasons, one of which is weight. It's a fantasy video game based on a table-top game. While it is reminiscent of trying to be realistic the mechanics of the game do not factor realism all the time, therefore robes are not as cumbersome as studded leather armor.

(In my opinion, since Studded Leather is more supple and flexible then regular leather, Studded Leather should have a higher Max Dex. But that is a discussion for the WotC boards, not here)

Aspenor
04-04-2008, 10:04 AM
No.. it's not another "my Rouge/Ranger want's a pair of pant's" thread. It's a what the heck are they thinking of giving you a Max AC based off you Dex when you wear a Robe when a Robe is the absolute worst thing in the world to base anything off Dex" Thread.

I totally understand the concept of Dex 36 +7 Bracers wear a Robe= best AC RULE. What I don't get is ...

WHY???????

Oh, I think I understand now....

Like trying to imagine a Catholic priest in combat....in his robe?? Yeah, I don't get it either.

My rogue wants a shirt and pants :D

SableShadow
04-04-2008, 10:08 AM
/signed

Well, /signed since forever ago. :)

While we're at it, how's about an 'armor skin swap' recipe? Say, take a syb shard, two sets of armor, and let you swap the skins on 'em? Wear your robe stats on your fave armor.

Hey, it's magic. ;)

Laith
04-04-2008, 10:16 AM
i've always wondered how most women can pull off walking/running in high-heels. hell i can hardly stand in them...

please tell me the parallel isn't lost.
remember, all characters are considered "proficient" in robe wearing as it applies to combat.

the op, apparently, does not posess this ability.
i recommend a strict training regiment of dress wearing & aerobics (and/or samurai school, ala Tom Cruise).
the feat will be waiting when you next level up. ;)

In_Like_Flynn
04-04-2008, 10:22 AM
What's the break point on DEX serving you better in Robes rather than Armour?

Note: Armour is spelled correctly. ;)

Laith
04-04-2008, 10:25 AM
What's the break point on DEX serving you better in Robes rather than Armour?

Note: Armour is spelled correctly. ;)
+8 (ie 26+ dex) is the most given in armor (padded).
i believe there's a ruled (or house ruled) in material that is like mithral for cloth armors (adding +2 max dex).

note that (iirc) when the system was originally developed, 30 in a stat was considered "godly" (as in actual gods posessed that value) and almost completely unattainable given a reasonable DM.

robes were simply never supposed to be worn "because i'm just too darn dexterous for armor".

Alavatar
04-04-2008, 10:41 AM
+8 (ie 26+ dex) is the most given in armor (padded).
i believe there's a ruled (or house ruled) in material that is like mithral for cloth armors (adding +2 max dex).

note that (iirc) when the system was originally developed, 30 in a stat was considered "godly" (as in actual gods posessed that value) and almost completely unattainable given a reasonable DM.

robes were simply never supposed to be worn "because i'm just too darn dexterous for armor".

That was before 3rd Edition when you didn't get an attribute point every 4th level. 3.0 and 3.5 Editions have kind of ... inflated a lot of the numbers.

However, good point "robes were simply never supposed to be worn "because i'm just too darn dexterous for armor"." Even in PnP it is unlikely to have a Dex of 30 or above unless you completely min/max and have an extremely generous DM that gave you a +6 dex item and perhaps a few wishes.

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 10:47 AM
Oh, I think I understand now....

Like trying to imagine a Catholic priest in combat....in his robe?? Yeah, I don't get it either.

My rogue wants a shirt and pants :D

Sorry I wasn't clear on my original post....but yeah.... kinda like that!


Oh...that Running in Hi-heels thing? That's the best part of Van Helsing! Kate running in Hi-heeled boots. She must have a Dex of at LEAST 4o!! Where are HER robes ???

Laith
04-04-2008, 10:53 AM
Oh...that Running in Hi-heels thing? That's the best part of Van Helsing! Kate running in Hi-heeled boots. She must have a Dex of at LEAST 4o!! Where are HER robes ???so you're referencing a Stephen Summers movie in a thread about realism?

really??

in any case, Kate wears what passes as "clothing" in that movie.
Robes are considered in the same category, and have the same bonuses and penalties.
As much as you may deny it, you're asking for pants.

binnsr
04-04-2008, 10:56 AM
so you're referencing a Stephen Summers movie in a thread about realism?

really??

in any case, Kate wears what passes as "clothing" in that movie.
Robes are considered in the same category, and have the same bonuses and penalties.
As much as you may deny it, you're asking for pants.

Like +15 diplomacy? :)

Laith
04-04-2008, 10:59 AM
Like +15 diplomacy? :)certain clothing and/or lighting bonuses/modifiers could be involved.

clothing also has a move- or free-action equivalent removal/donning (really depends on the motivation).
armor may be a mood killer: padded armor takes 1 minute to take off. plate takes 4(!!!!) minutes.

Albel
04-04-2008, 11:01 AM
No.. it's not another "my Rouge/Ranger want's a pair of pant's" thread. It's a what the heck are they thinking of giving you a Max AC based off you Dex when you wear a Robe when a Robe is the absolute worst thing in the world to base anything off Dex" Thread.

I totally understand the concept of Dex 36 +7 Bracers wear a Robe= best AC RULE. What I don't get is ...

WHY???????


Oh, I think I understand now....

Like trying to imagine a Catholic priest in combat....in his robe?? Yeah, I don't get it either.

My rogue wants a shirt and pants :D


Sorry I wasn't clear on my original post....but yeah.... kinda like that!




It comes down to programmed graphics, WotC put in robes to the original PnP game, but still allowed you to fight in them without trouble, thus most players would use their imaginations to have the robes look like something they'd actually be able to fight in, in DDO the graphics are limited to what has been programmed so we see full-on scholars robes instead of a more unique combat oriented set of robes. Use your imagination until the graphics catch up.

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 11:03 AM
No... I was just drooling over Kate, since someone posted about women running in Hi-heels. That was the absolute first thing to come to mind! You know kinda like when someone say.... "Whatever you do.... DON'T think of Pink Elephants!"

But back on track....

It makes more sense for Armor like Studded leather (which is soft supple Leather w/studs or rings on it) or Padded Armor To give you a max AC thru Dex than a Robe. Robes can drag, catch on a trap, bind your legs when tumbling, need to be belted in place which reduces torso/shoulder/arm mobility.

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, just not my intelligence.

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 11:06 AM
It comes down to programmed graphics, WotC put in robes to the original PnP game, but still allowed you to fight in them without trouble, thus most players would use their imaginations to have the robes look like something they'd actually be able to fight in, in DDO the graphics are limited to what has been programmed so we see full-on scholars robes instead of a more unique combat oriented set of robes. Use your imagination until the graphics catch up.

This makes the most sense, thanks.

Albel
04-04-2008, 11:10 AM
See here: http://www.freewebs.com/achilles01/Weapon-Master.jpg for an example of what robes should look like for combat oriented characters.

Burem
04-04-2008, 11:10 AM
I understand that it's (sort of) stupid that the best thing you can wear if you're a high dex build is a robe but I don't think your real life experience applies. From a cosmetic standpoint I would like to not have to wear a dress but considering no human in real life could even approach the levels of dexterity 36 dex is supposed to represent I don't think you can really speak to how much a robe would encumber such a person.

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 11:14 AM
Albel...saw your post AFTER I posted that. I replied to it right after. Nice pix.

Turial
04-04-2008, 11:15 AM
I understand that it's (sort of) stupid that the best thing you can wear if you're a high dex build is a robe but I don't think your real life experience applies. From a cosmetic standpoint I would like to not have to wear a dress but considering no human in real life could even approach the levels of dexterity 36 dex is supposed to represent I don't think you can really speak to how much a robe would encumber such a person.
I dont know some of those acrobats seems to have it down pretty well. Them and some of those monks out there are pretty agile in robes of sorts.

Albel
04-04-2008, 11:17 AM
Albel...saw your post AFTER I posted that. I replied to it right after. Nice pix.

Yeah I noticed that and editted my post when I saw.

ThrasherGT
04-04-2008, 03:01 PM
It would be cool if We could Have "clothes" for all "non-combat" instances.......I mean, who would walk around a market or tavern in their armor when they know their not going to fight, right? Just have the game auto-switch when You enter a non-combat area......

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 03:20 PM
Why an Auto switch? Just 'put your armor on' with a click of the hot bar...like changing armor ... Clothing selection Would be cool though! Poet shirts and dublets! Maybe a 'Captains' coat? For sitting around in the tavern when your there "healing" the dead when the recal to the tavern?

feynman
04-04-2008, 03:24 PM
It makes more sense for Armor like Studded leather (which is soft supple Leather w/studs or rings on it) or Padded Armor To give you a max AC thru Dex than a Robe. Robes can drag, catch on a trap, bind your legs when tumbling, need to be belted in place which reduces torso/shoulder/arm mobility.

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, just not my intelligence.

Actually, leather armor was anything but "soft supple" material; don't think of a leather jacket, think of shoe leather, or better yet, combat boots or a tool belt (baseball glove?). Thick, hard leather that is almost rigid is what we're talking about here. Studs are also misused, in that they were not used to improve the armor's ability to stop an attack, but to hurt the other guy when he missed and cuts his arm open on the stud (sort of a small spike).

For that matter, the best armor around should be banded mail, as it provides the best combination of defense, light weight, and flexibility; Roman soldiers could touch their toes and do somersaults in full kit, and the arm plates are strong enough to stop 9mm bullets (don't ask me how I know this). Instead, banded mail is easily the worst armor in the game.

Padded armor is almost nonsensical when related to reality, unless you are talking about the layer of padding that was worn under other armor to keep the metal from flaying the skin off of your bones. At best, it will cushion a blow from a blunt weapon, but even then, not by much; think of a catcher's apron in baseball.

Two other notes:

1. The cutoff dex for armor to be useful is 24, and that's only with armor mastery; any higher than this, and your +7 armored bracers will give you a better AC than any "real" armor in the game. Some armor might still be useful while you are leveling up and can't use that high a level of bracers, but at end game, it's junk.

2. Shaolin monks wear robes at least as goofy as anything I've seen in this game, and I'm certainly not going to mess with them!

Elaril
04-04-2008, 03:25 PM
I think it's a "ZOMG! That's not realistic!!" thread.

Is there anything realistic about me running around with an elemental burst weapon, spamming firewall, and casting a spell that restores me to full vitality when I was previously seconds away from death all the while battling ogres, giants, dragons, gnolls, undead and the like?

Rav'n
04-04-2008, 03:41 PM
Actually, leather armor was anything but "soft supple" material; don't think of a leather jacket, think of shoe leather, or better yet, combat boots or a tool belt (baseball glove?). Thick, hard leather that is almost rigid is what we're talking about here. Studs are also misused, in that they were not used to improve the armor's ability to stop an attack, but to hurt the other guy when he missed and cuts his arm open on the stud (sort of a small spike).

umm.... not so much, I work with leather... as an armorer. There's many forms of Leather armor. But Studded..(even DnD describes it as...) is supple leather with studs on it. The studs are there to help stop the Blade. There is a Heavy leather used as armor. Most leather Breast plates are actually as hard as steel. They're hardened by an oil process. Not much into that as it's messy :D

feynman
04-04-2008, 03:56 PM
Actually, leather armor was anything but "soft supple" material; don't think of a leather jacket, think of shoe leather, or better yet, combat boots or a tool belt (baseball glove?). Thick, hard leather that is almost rigid is what we're talking about here. Studs are also misused, in that they were not used to improve the armor's ability to stop an attack, but to hurt the other guy when he missed and cuts his arm open on the stud (sort of a small spike).

umm.... not so much, I work with leather... as an armorer. There's many forms of Leather armor. But Studded..(even DnD describes it as...) is supple leather with studs on it. The studs are there to help stop the Blade. There is a Heavy leather used as armor. Most leather Breast plates are actually as hard as steel. They're hardened by an oil process. Not much into that as it's messy :D

1. supple leather is nearly worthless against large weapons, i.e. other than knives, small clubs, etc.

2. studs are worthless for defense, as they will either not stop the blade (it will miss, glance off, etc), or, in the case of "supple" leather, hurt you themselves as they dig through the armor.

3. boiled leather is what was used as armor; the oil process you mentioned. other types of leather "armor" are used in industrial applications, or sports, and are intended to stop incidental harm from accidents; they are not strong enough to effectively counter intentional harm from someone trying to stick several feet of steel through your body.

4. the purpose of armor was only half defensive; the other half was offensive, i.e. sharp edges on arm- and leg-plates, spikes on elbows, feet and shoulders, etc. this was the function of "studs".

Angelus_dead
04-04-2008, 07:13 PM
I think it's a "ZOMG! That's not realistic!!" thread.
In matters of visual display, a degree of realism enhances the enjoyment of a game, especially when regarding elements not explicitly magical. Even if PCs are doing impossible things, it simply looks better if the setting and props have at least a foundation in places or objects the players recognize from the real world. That means that a person intent on using nimble reactions to protect herself is unlikely to wear a lengthy robe that could easily get tangled on foliage, furniture, or her own two legs.

The artists for D&D are aware of this, and illustrate the game books accordingly. Open your Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide and turn to illustrations of any of the non-spellcaster character classes who cannot wear even light armor. The most obvious two examples are the Monk and Duelist- both have class features that fail in any kind of armor.

The Duelist looks fine for a high dex warrior, but if you actually had a Duelist class in DDO, or simply wanted to emulate it with a finesse fighter, you couldn't. To get the clothes to look right you'd need padded, leather, or chainshirt armor, but that would kill your max dex bonus. So instead you walk about in a ritual bathrobe.

The D&D Monk ("Ember") would also be impossible to duplicate in DDO. The best you could do would actually be to wear no clothes at all, which is mechanically bad. Since DDO hasn't fully previewed monks yet, we can hold out hope they are fixing the issue, and causing existing robe items to look different when worn by an athletic-based character instead of a spellcaster.

Note that this problem is exacerbated by the enhancement system in DDO, which causes elf/halfling rogues/rangers to have dexerity +5 above what they'd have in D&D, making them exceed the dex bonus of padded armor that much quicker.

Ildaron
04-05-2008, 12:09 AM
It would be cool if We could Have "clothes" for all "non-combat" instances.......I mean, who would walk around a market or tavern in their armor when they know their not going to fight, right? Just have the game auto-switch when You enter a non-combat area......

That is what the poor performers in the marketplace thought as well... and then demons ate them and blew up their tent! :eek:

Myself I hate the look of robes they just look.. well.. blah. In PnP D&D I never picture my character's in robes. Though they wield powerful magic they wear tunics and pants. Nice sturdy boots to walk in. Only if they are travelling up a hilly termain will they carry a staff which I like to call a walking stick. To solve this error for me on DDO I just have my casters all be pointy eared and take elven armor fludity. No fuss no muss and less people mistaking my manly male elf (said with a stright face) casters for women.

QuantumFX
04-05-2008, 01:10 AM
So then I'm lost...

Is this another "my rogue/ranger wants a shirt and pants" thread?

Michael Westen: Not bad for a man in his underwear.
Sam Axe: You think that's good, you should see me without them!

(Bruce Campbell has a quote for every situation in life.)