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View Full Version : Plea for Smite Evil Revision



GhostNull
04-02-2008, 02:13 PM
Devs. in the past two Development Activities, you have been developing new Smite Evil enchancements. You've seen the flurry of resposnes from posters in those threads. Paladin players don't really want a new Smite Evil line where there's a chance to whiff air (from the mob hopping around or just plain missing).

With the mob's HP in higher level quests, single-shot Smites every 6-10 seconds just isn't going to cut it for DPS that Paladins want. Really, what is so dangerous about changing Smite Evil to a 6-second boost? Would it be so bad for an average Paladin to actually do as much damage as some Fighters and Barbarians (or even some Rangers against a favored enemy) for a whole 6 seconds?

Players would much rather have their Paladins to do more, consistent DPS. Once again, these new Smites the Devs have in development all still suffer from the original problem; single-shot ability against high HP mobs. Divine Sacrifice? That's just a Vicious weapon that Paladins can get as an enhancement. Exalted Smiting is slightly stepping in the right direction. But, that still suffers from the one-shot (and potential miss from twitchy mob) problem as original Smiting.

Once again, would it be so bad for the regular Smite Evil to last a single round (6 seconds). It would give Paladins a much needed, albeit short-term and limited (by uses) boost to DPS?

The cooldown could even be increased to 30 seconds to 1 minute if Smite Evil were to last for 6 seconds. Heck, even roll back the Extra Smite enhancement to give only one extra use instead of the current two it gives to help balance.

What about the new Smite Evil Enhancements? Make them both last 3 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds or 1 minute :p

Thoughts? Flames? Constructive feedback?

Mhykke
04-02-2008, 02:16 PM
Something needs to be done, b/c my paladin has one foot in the grave, especially after all these announcements.

oronisi
04-02-2008, 02:46 PM
Actually GhostNull, I don't want to see paladins get a DPS boost at all. We all agree the new paladin 'enhancements' are lacking. I'd rather see them left or scrapped (same thing, nobody will use them), and for the devs to build enhancements in paladin auras. Paladin auras are unique to paladins, which makes them great grounds for enhancement lines, and offer defensive buffs. Why not give paladins a more diverse and potent list of aura options?

Right now we have:
Resistance
Armor Class
Concentration
Fear saves

Why not add:
HP Regeneration
SP Regeneration
Stacking DR
Heal/cure aura (occasional chance to remove disease, poison, stat damage, negative level drain, fear, exhaustion, etc)

or Offensive auras:
+ to hit evil
+ to damage evil
+ to crit evil
+ to threat range evil
all attacks within paladin's aura are considered good for purposes of bypassing DR


Point is, there are tons of things you can add to paladins. They have enough clickies as-is with all their spells, smite evils, turn undeads, LoH, and combat feats and stances. Give them passive aura abilities that help themselves and the party.

Turial
04-02-2008, 02:57 PM
Why not add:
HP Regeneration
SP Regeneration
Stacking DR
Heal/cure aura (occasional chance to remove disease, poison, stat damage, negative level drain, fear, exhaustion, etc)

or Offensive auras:
+ to hit evil
+ to damage evil
+ to crit evil
+ to threat range evil
all attacks within paladin's aura are considered good for purposes of bypassing DR


Point is, there are tons of things you can add to paladins. They have enough clickies as-is with all their spells, smite evils, turn undeads, LoH, and combat feats and stances. Give them passive aura abilities that help themselves and the party.

mmmmm passive healing and sp regen.

Bradik_Losdar
04-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Actually GhostNull, I don't want to see paladins get a DPS boost at all. We all agree the new paladin 'enhancements' are lacking. I'd rather see them left or scrapped (same thing, nobody will use them), and for the devs to build enhancements in paladin auras. Paladin auras are unique to paladins, which makes them great grounds for enhancement lines, and offer defensive buffs. Why not give paladins a more diverse and potent list of aura options?

Because paladins are supposed to be the front line offense against evil, not a just a supporting role for other fighters and barbarians. Heck, if I had my way, "Smite Evil" would be a full time, always on ability for paladins in DDO to compensate for the massively inflated HP mobs have. After all it would only do the extra damage to evil mobs right? - and that is the very core of what a paladin is.

llevenbaxx
04-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Because paladins are supposed to be the front line offense against evil, not a just a supporting role for other fighters and barbarians. Heck, if I had my way, "Smite Evil" would be a full time, always on ability for paladins in DDO to compensate for the massively inflated HP mobs have. After all it would only do the extra damage to evil mobs right? - and that is the very core of what a paladin is.

Agree.

I cringe every time I read peoples suggestions about turning palys into support(back up healer :( ) or defensive "specialists". Palys are slayers of all evil. I like the idea of possibly getting some more auras that help offense as they have already implimented defensive ones.

What we need the Devs to do is look at some of the paly PrCs and take note most of them are offensive in nature. I think its pretty clear this is to offset some of the "O" the base class was missing.

Nothing against defensive builds, defense should always be an option but not the only viable one.

They absolutely need an offensive boost though. All other melee classes got some pretty severe offensive upgrades/options in this VERY combat oriented game, time to give palys some of the same. Paladin is a melee class first and foremost, they should be able to fight evil as well as any other class out there.

binnsr
04-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Because paladins are supposed to be the front line offense against evil, not a just a supporting role for other fighters and barbarians. Heck, if I had my way, "Smite Evil" would be a full time, always on ability for paladins in DDO to compensate for the massively inflated HP mobs have. After all it would only do the extra damage to evil mobs right? - and that is the very core of what a paladin is.

I think I'd actually unretire my poor old paladin if that were implemented!

Arianrhod
04-02-2008, 03:39 PM
At the very least, it could be turned into a "combat state" like rage, maybe lasting something like 1 sec+1 per point of cha bonus. At least that way there would be a decent chance of getting an attack roll in before it wore off.

Delt
04-02-2008, 04:08 PM
Paladin's can/should be developed in 3 ways:

- casting (heals or offensive)

- buffing (entirely centered around aura)

- melee (frontline melee with a specific purpose)

They already gave bards 3 paths via enhancements and they should do the same for Pali's (except learn from your mistakes, no one takes virtuoso for a reason, make each specialty desirable).

The gameplay and roleplay framework is already there in enhancements (the Faith lines and a similar specialty split could apply to clerics anyway), so all that's left is for the devs to completely revamp and rethink Paladin enhancement lines and spells. It's a big job, sure, but Paladins have been complaining since Gianthold almost...if what they announced is really all they have thought of in that entire time, I'd say it's pretty clear they really aren't listening to player complaints and we should all just delete our Pali's now.

oronisi
04-02-2008, 04:08 PM
Because paladins are supposed to be the front line offense against evil, not a just a supporting role for other fighters and barbarians. Heck, if I had my way, "Smite Evil" would be a full time, always on ability for paladins in DDO to compensate for the massively inflated HP mobs have. After all it would only do the extra damage to evil mobs right? - and that is the very core of what a paladin is.

DDO is not balanced for that, sorry. Way too many things we face are pure evil, compared to any campaign I've ever run in PnP. You are asking to be the most potent thing against evil, which is probably over 50% of the things we fight, and way over 50% of the things we fight that matter (yea, dogs, spiders, bats, and rats are pretty much just fodder enemies).

I've traditionally not supported things like 'Paladins are the best vs Undead, and mediocre at everything else' because it's hard to balance. It means paladins = **** in PvP and any quest without undead. Well, devs are now developing whole modules without undead, so that can get a wee bit painful.

But on that note, I'd fully support 3 or more different prestige-class enhancement lines, one or more being offensive. I wouldn't take the offensive one but hey, those prestige classes are there to diversify people. For the record, I have a 2h (permadeath) paladin I'm building and wouldn't mind having a DR or regen aura. You may consider it defensive, I consider it something that adds to my survival, which lets me be offensive longer.

Angelus_dead
04-02-2008, 04:19 PM
Thoughts? Flames? Constructive feedback?
What they should do to Smite Evil is follow the same kind of change they did to Stunning Blow.

The Stunning Fist feat in D&D gives you 1 daily use per 4 levels, meaning 5 uses at level 16. And if it hits a monster who fails his save, that monster is almost completely defeated. Obviously, DDO characters fight more monsters per day, so only 4 uses per rest would not be worth a feat in DDO, so the devs wisely switched Stunning Blow to unlimited use with a 15 second timer.

The Smite Evil class feature in D&D gives a Paladin 1 daily use per 5 levels, meaning 4 uses at level 16. And if it hits an evil monster, that enemy is probably about half-dead from one hit. In DDO monsters have more hp, so the smite damage is less of a benefit. Obviously, DDO characters fight more monsters per day, so 4 uses per rest is not a worthwhile class feature, so it would be smart to switch it to unlimited use with a cooldown timer.

Whatever chain of reasoning gave Stunning Blow unlimited use should give Smite Evil unlimited use too.

I would suggest giving Smite Evil unlimited uses and a 30 second cooldown. The Extra Smite enhancement series would be replaced with Faster Smite I-IV, which reduces your cooldown by 5, 10, 15, or 20 seconds.

Bradik_Losdar
04-02-2008, 07:47 PM
DDO is not balanced for that, sorry. Way too many things we face are pure evil, compared to any campaign I've ever run in PnP. You are asking to be the most potent thing against evil, which is probably over 50% of the things we fight, and way over 50% of the things we fight that matter (yea, dogs, spiders, bats, and rats are pretty much just fodder enemies)

Not to be too sarcastic - but what good is a paladin if he isn't this?

gpk
04-02-2008, 08:01 PM
As I've said in the WDA I think the way to fix the proposed smites are:

1) make it unlimited uses a day
2) compare to what Ram's Might would give 1 handed hasted paladin
3) adjust cooldown timer (it would be somewhere between 6 -12 seconds roughly)
4) if all that's added of value is the new unlimited smite, reduce cooldown timer so that it is is better than ram's might to compensate for only getting this and pally being behind ranger power

5) Possibly supplement with a spell like Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura. If these spells are added compare sum of all these and Smite and increase the smite cooldown a bit to compensate.

In the end, the sum of all pally love should be greater than what rangers got in mod6, as paladins were further behind in the overall power/usefulness race.

Note: no saavy paladin players are exctied about Raise Dead LOH: UMD, rez rings, crafted rez clickies etc etc and it's not true to the pally spirit.

llevenbaxx
04-03-2008, 07:16 AM
Not to be too sarcastic - but what good is a paladin if he isn't this?

A bard, with weaker buffs(in aura form), who cant fight even his sworn enemies as well as other melees.:)

artvan_delet
04-03-2008, 11:44 AM
Have you all lost your mind? We need smite evil for red name fights primarily. Most groups can vorpal,w/p, pk, finger, destruct, slay, etc all the other mobs. I don't want unlimited smites with a 12-15 cooldown like stunning blow. Great, I get to use one or two smites v. a red name, hope it doesnt move, hope i crit. so i get maybe 1 or 2 crits versus a red name in a quest. THat's almost nothing, considering one polar ray, cone of cold, blade barrier (hitting several times) etc does damage in the thousands.

Either put smite on a 4-6 second timer or eliminate the cooldown. I like exalted smite because it's an improvement, but it certainly isn't uber.

Cyr
04-03-2008, 12:35 PM
New pali love seems like some good boosts to those pure breed pali's to me...Crazy talk like making smite a six second clicky unlimited uses...always on...and all the other suggestions in this thread so far seem far overpowered. Essentially these suggestions would make a pali equal to or better than the the other melee classes for dps (including that fully critically raging barb). This is a problem for one important reason, pali's get their aura's and lay on hands also. They can self heal better than the other melee classes, have superior saves (which hopefully they have been wise enough to make even more useful by splashing enough of another class for evasion), and give large AC and Save bonuses to all their nearby allies. A barb on the other hand...sucks at self healing, has pretty poor saves, and gives 0 benefit to their allies besides killing.

I know pali's are needing the love, but the new enhancments will be giving that already. Do the math on the critical hit numbers and you will see some truly silly damage numbers popping out. Against those good old red names it is all about silly damage numbers and pali's will finally be getting that.

oronisi
04-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Not to be too sarcastic - but what good is a paladin if he isn't this?

I don't ever recall thinking of paladins as the end-all-be-all vs evil creatures. Not in PnP, and certainly not in DDO. I'll take the barbarian or fighter, thanks. Paladins are hybrid classes just like bards. I think of paladins as 2/3 fighter, 1/3 cleric. The only problem is, that sounds like poo to me. But in reality, if you made an 11 fighter, 5 cleric, you'd probably end up with someone more powerful than a paladin, so who knows.

I never really took paladins for 'Evil bane PCs' because I was more of an anti-paladin lover myself. Who wants to be limited in your roleplaying options due to a silly alignment restriction anyways? Anyways, I would more easily think of paladins as undead killers than evil killers, but when it comes down to it, I don't think of them as killers at all. I think of their auras, their lay on hands, and their limited healing and buffing spells.

Borror0
04-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Do the math on the critical hit numbers and you will see some truly silly damage numbers popping out.

Ahem:



Say your level 16 paladin is using a Greataxe (Dwarven Axes would give you the same), his Smite Evil (normal) give him:

12*(55*18/20 + 165*2/20) = 792 damage (average)

Say your level 16 paladin is using a Greataxe and has Exalted Smite III, you gain a total of:

12*(55*17/20 + 275*3/20) = 1056 damage (average)

So, that's 264 more damage per shrine, on average... for 7 APs... (and that implies you're totally focused on Smite Evil!!)

Of course, damage are lower if you multiclass... so yeah, Exalted Smite is a wonderful addition.:rolleyes:

So, ya still call it "love"?:D