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Westerner
04-02-2008, 01:33 PM
It's my understanding that ranged was scaled down significantly in beta based on feedback that people were killing everything at a distance making the game too easy.

With casters commonly PK-ing, Destructing and FoD-ing at a distance these days, I think the beta-era thinking on ranged is obsolete.

My gut says cut the ranged/melee alacrity gap in half. i.e. if ranged is 60% alacrity vs melee (75% w/rapid shot) then go to 80% (87.5% w/rapid shot).

Rangers would probably need downward tweaks in order to maintain game balance.

Turial
04-02-2008, 01:46 PM
Signed.

Currently ranged combat is about 1/2 as effective as melee even taking into account the idea that "ranged combat means you will take less damage". It really comes down to going back and relooking at aspects of ranged combat which have been admitted to being thrown in at the end due to time constraints. There have been lots of posts for a while highlighting changes that would help and tone parts down. It really comes down to if Turbine wants to and can take the time to do such a fundamental rehaul.

Mad_Bombardier
04-02-2008, 01:51 PM
Ranged RoF increases with BAB. Melee RoA has decreased with every new attack since BAB+10. I have a feeling that by L20, ranged RoF will = melee RoA. But, that's beside the point. We shouldn't have to wait for BAB+20 for usable RoF. Ranged RoF (except repeaters) needs a boost, now. And not feat based. Melee doesn't have to spend feats to increase their RoA to usable levels, neither should we. We build for or purchase Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and/or Quick Draw and that is penalty enough to ranged combatants.

ChildrenofBodom
04-02-2008, 01:54 PM
Ranged RoF increases with BAB. Melee RoA has decreased with every new attack since BAB+10. I have a feeling that by L20, ranged RoF will = melee RoA. But, that's beside the point. We shouldn't have to wait for BAB+20 for usable RoF. Ranged RoF (except repeaters) needs a boost, now. And not feat based. Melee doesn't have to spend feats to increase their RoA to usable levels, neither should we. We build for or purchase Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and/or Quick Draw and that is penalty enough to ranged combatants.

True Mad, but....

You can easily avoid that really slow 5th attack by moving. So I don't think it's a HUGE deal.

Even in PnP, Ranged alacrity = Melee alacrity.

Of course me being a ranger.....

/sign :)

Turial
04-02-2008, 01:56 PM
Ranged RoF increases with BAB. Melee RoA has decreased with every new attack since BAB+10. I have a feeling that by L20, ranged RoF will = melee RoA. But, that's beside the point. We shouldn't have to wait for BAB+20 for usable RoF. Ranged RoF (except repeaters) needs a boost, now. And not feat based. Melee doesn't have to spend feats to increase their RoA to usable levels, neither should we. We build for or purchase Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and/or Quick Draw and that is penalty enough to ranged combatants.

How much has ranged gone up from 1 to 16 vs melee going down? I had held the theory that at 20 they would be the same assuming full attack sequences.

Side issue is that people can reset melee attack chains and get more attacks per min where ranged combat cannot.This is why having them become equal at level 20 isnt a great solution. Honestly I also think that it will only reach the same ROA with feats added in which is a further deviation from how it was setup in pnp.

Invalid_86
04-02-2008, 01:57 PM
A fix is long overdue.

If you can wade through the endless posts in Codog's Dog House thread he discusses some of the technical hurdles that have to be conquered first. Wish him luck!


How much has ranged gone up from 1 to 16 vs melee going down? I had held the theory that at 20 they would be the same assuming full attack sequences.

Side issue is that people can reset melee attack chains and get more attacks per min where ranged combat cannot.This is why having them become equal at level 20 isnt a great solution. Honestly I also think that it will only reach the same ROA with feats added in which is a further deviation from how it was setup in pnp.

Have a reset timer on when the attack sequence resets. We aren't talking cutting edge technology here.

Turial
04-02-2008, 01:58 PM
A fix is long overdue.

If you can wade through the endless posts in Codog's Dog House thread he discusses some of the technical hurdles that have to be conquered first. Wish him luck!

If he could pull it off I would personally slay all the gnolls in the desert in tribute...well those that are still left cause I kinda killed several generations already.

Puke
04-02-2008, 02:20 PM
Eh, it's too late for me. But I will say that I have been harping on this since I first joined. But now I do not care anymore mostly because my 2nd-year expires in July and I am not renewing.

Enjoy the new class who slaps monsters around bare-handed being more welcome to a group than someone who should be able to thin out a group of monsters before they get within melee range.

Westerner
04-02-2008, 03:06 PM
I say keep it simple.

Ranged gets a 10% RoF boost across the board.

Ranger gets a new Martial Archer specialty giving a futher 10% RoF boost (similar to Tempest).

This is in keeping with PnP flavor calling for rangers to specialize in either TWF or Ranged.

Turial
04-04-2008, 10:10 AM
I say keep it simple.

Ranged gets a 10% RoF boost across the board.

Ranger gets a new Martial Archer specialty giving a futher 10% RoF boost (similar to Tempest).

This is in keeping with PnP flavor calling for rangers to specialize in either TWF or Ranged.

Neat idea. Though I personally think the ROF boost should be for bows and thrown weapons rather then all ranged weapons. Beta testing pointed out the issues with having repeaters firing that fast and hence the ranged combat nerf.

In_Like_Flynn
04-04-2008, 10:24 AM
I think it's degimp.

Mad_Bombardier
04-04-2008, 10:31 AM
Neat idea. Though I personally think the ROF boost should be for bows and thrown weapons rather then all ranged weapons. Beta testing pointed out the issues with having repeaters firing that fast and hence the ranged combat nerf.And repeaters have once again been "fixed" to ridiculous rate of fire (overall RoF is faster than 1H melee starting at BAB+8). Now, we need an increase for bows, crossbows, and thrown.

Turial
04-04-2008, 10:46 AM
And repeaters have once again been "fixed" to ridiculous rate of fire (overall RoF is faster than 1H melee starting at BAB+8). Now, we need an increase for bows, crossbows, and thrown.

Funny bows are supposed to do that, not repeaters. One of these days I'm going to finish my comparison of ranged vs 1-H melee.

+5 longbow vs +5 warhammer competing in damage over 2 minutes. I have the basic damage stats worked out now and I just have to finish the kiting comparison vs displacement fighting.

Zenako
04-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Rangers would probably need downward tweaks in order to maintain game balance.

Um whom do you think are the primary ranged attackers currently??? Almost always Rangers (not always, but almost always).

If you think you would need to tweak them (Rangers) down (man first time I heard that in a long time), doesn't that indicate you feel they are more closely balanced to a melee type currently? If you feel that to keep that "balance" you would need to tweak downward Rangers, I assume you also feel that to keep that balance we need to tweak downward fighters and barbarians as well.

Careful you are not comparing special builds vs nominal values. A speced out Ranged Attacking Ranger can be effiective, but so to is speced out Barbarian, and the common perception is that they are the current pinnacle of melee ability.

A LOT of the gap between ranged and melee is simply due to the Enhancements available to melee that are not available to ranged attacks (and for a good reason in my opinion). Ranged combat is NOT the same as Melee, in any system. I have seen way too many people cite PnP D&D as a location where they are the same...they are not.

Ignoring feats for the moment, the number of attacks are the same, melee or ranged. Damage done by base weapon type can be about the same, but damage adds from things like STR top out at 4 with bows and have no limit with melee and get multipled by more when 2 handed fighting as well. The biggest difference is that the ranged attacker is not getting hit with return strikes while doing their damage. That is BIG difference. The Crit range for most Ranged weapons is also inferior to most commonly used melee weapons as well. 20 vs 19-20 (or more).

Turial
04-04-2008, 12:37 PM
The biggest difference is that the ranged attacker is not getting hit with return strikes while doing their damage. That is BIG difference.

That maybe but is a basic ranged combat user taking that much less damage then a basic melee that is sword and board? The difference between two comprable weapons is shown below.

+5 longbow vs +5 warhammer:

Longbow
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 159 attacks with manyshot (144 normal, 15 critical)
Damage = 1795.5
Over 2 min 106 attacks without manyshot (96 normal, 10 critical)
Damage = 1197

Warhammer
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 178 attacks (161 normal, 17 critical)
Damage = 2014 ~12% increase over ranged with manyshot and 68% increase over normal ranged.

If ranged combat speed is brought up manyshot needs to be changed...no arguments there. The question is how much to change it to make the damage output fair with regards to ranged combats damage mitigation factor. That is what we have been trying to figure out in these threads as well as making the devs aware our ideas regarding ranged vs melee in general.

(side note: used d6 rather then d8 for damage dice....will correct in a little bit)
Fixed.

Westerner
04-04-2008, 12:38 PM
If you think you would need to tweak them (Rangers) down, doesn't that indicate you feel they are more closely balanced to a melee type currently? If you feel that to keep that "balance" you would need to tweak downward Rangers, I assume you also feel that to keep that balance we need to tweak downward fighters and barbarians as well.
I have a capped ranger and am trying to be as fair about this as I can.

I think rangers are fairly balanced vs. other melees in Mod6... though they were underpowered for a while before, as you mentioned.

Since rangers get a lot of free ranged feats, improving ranged RoF helps Rangers the most, although other melee classes benefit as well. I feel that some of the Mod6 love Rangers got was to make up for the fact that ranged was gimped.

I'd scrap Deepwood Sniper and Arcane Archer and replace with the proposed Martial Archer specialty. Rangers then havea a choice of two specialties: Tempest/TWF or Archer/Ranged.

JFeenstra
04-04-2008, 03:23 PM
Warhammer
3.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 178 attacks (161 normal, 17 critical)
Damage = 2014 ~12% increase over ranged with manyshot and 68% increase over normal ranged.3.5 + 5 = 8.5, not 9.5, which makes crits 25.5 and your total damage over 2 min 1802, considerably closer to a bow with manyshot (only 3% more instead of 12%)

Turial
04-04-2008, 03:27 PM
3.5 + 5 = 8.5, not 9.5, which makes crits 25.5 and your total damage over 2 min 1802, considerably closer to a bow with manyshot (only 3% more instead of 12%)
Actually thats where I made the mistake of using a d6 rather then the d8 of a warhammer. I ended up correcting all but that particular part of the calculation in display.