PDA

View Full Version : Are heal scrolls just the beginning?



paintedman
04-01-2008, 09:27 PM
Upfront I'll tell you that I come from headstart, so I have seen quite a bit of change over the years in ddo. Some I liked, evasion in heavy amour, some I didn't like, having a pure ranger with med & heavy amour feats after evasion fix, but all have been taken in stride. I've tried every class available, a few builds, and a few experiments, all good fun. I read the forums a bit and post here and there.

But something has been troubling me. I have a lvl 15 cleric, headstart fellow, so not min/maxed, dwarf and with an eye patch, my first creation, and lucky, he turned out okay as a healer, however I have not taken him into the Shroud. I hear more and more that people are using 50 or so heal scrolls. I think to myself, that’s a problem. Stay with me here, either the cleric does not have enough sp, the mobs are dealing more damage than is expected, or the fighter types are taking way more damage than they should.

So this leads me to a conclusion, our characters have reached a ceiling, either not enough sp, ac, or inability to effectively absorb damage.

I know I can not be the only one who has noticed this, but I find it interesting that no one has really brought it up, its not like clerics are gonna get 1000sp next mod, or fighters types will gain 10 more ac. And with the way players are being outfitted the mobs can only get stronger. At what point will the mobs just be too much for 50% of the player base that does not have greensteel like items?

Solutions, no I don't have any right now, because I don't think I have a good grasp on the root of the problem, but I'd like to know if anyone has thought like I do about the trends, or wondered what next? I'd like to see my cleric make it to level 20 and be useful with one eye and halfway decent stats. ;)

-paintedman

Invalid_86
04-01-2008, 09:32 PM
That my friend is why DDO should not go further into a power spiral, and why bloating everything in the 3.5 rules causes the game to fall apart.

For the long term good DDO needs to cut back on the power levels.

captain1z
04-01-2008, 09:38 PM
I like you have been playing since the game was playable and also have the perspective that only time will grant you.


Mod 6 then = OMG!!!! clerics in gianthold need to buy hundreds of heal scrolls to keep up with the damage these mobs are doing

Mod 6 now = LFM Crucible .. elite run .... cleric welcome but will take any........In Progress


Yes! Scrolls are just the beggining.

Nevthial
04-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Mod 6 then = OMG!!!! clerics in gianthold need to buy hundreds of heal scrolls to keep up with the damage these mobs are doing

Mod 6 now = LFM Crucible .. elite run .... cleric welcome but will take any........In Progress

QFT. Give it a month or so, and it will be another routine run with little resources used.

The tactics used during questing has everything to do with this. Folks typically are too inflexible in their thinking to try new combinations of strategies until they are forced to do so. There has been talk at every Mod. about this, that or the other being underpowered, overpowered, ect, ect, ad nauseum. Don't sweat the small stuff & have fun. :)

Sydril
04-01-2008, 09:51 PM
I've been doing shroud runs for some time now where the clerics have used 0 heal scrolls through 1-4. These have been balanced parties. Part 5 on the other hand can be a bear but even then with good players, tactics and strategy the costs can be minimized.

Some people prefer the brainless front door method where they take it on the chin for 9 rounds and cast a bazillion heal scrolls. To each his own.

ShadesofGreen
04-01-2008, 09:59 PM
Yeah, been here since beta... but took time off. Haven't seen the Shroud, but let me ask you this?

Are 50+ scrolls being used on "normal" level of Shroud? Cause if its hard or elite, then I'd say the adventure is ok. Isn't that really the point of difficulty levels, to be harder than normal? If they are being used on "normal" then as the OP said, either healers stink, melees have terrible AC or no one is trying to stay on defense at all.

I personally think its the last one, when was the last time someone took toughness feat? Other than those who deliberately wanted to utilize the toughness line of enhancements.

When was Shield Mastery taken? Luck of Heroes? Does anyone know what the [shift] button does? ;)
I'd really like to see a list of feats taken on current character in the servers, I'm guessing Power Attack and Empower Spell are the top two.

All I tend to see are all offense characters and very little defense. I could be wrong, I don't get out much, but hey "sword and board" seems to be very unpopular these days. I blame the THF great cleave and the sweet a$$ TWF mechanics! :)

Oh and P.S. why is it all about scrolls now, what happened to wands?

Angelus_dead
04-01-2008, 11:18 PM
So this leads me to a conclusion, our characters have reached a ceiling, either not enough sp, ac, or inability to effectively absorb damage.
No. It's not the characters, it's the players.

Either the players are not able to win without taking too much damage, or they're not even trying. Many players have enough plat that they don't care about 50 scrolls, so it's possible that even if they're capable of winning without resource expenditure, they choose not to.

It can be a rational choice: spend scrolls to get faster access to Shroud Ingredients, which are not buyable with plat and which fetch enormous prices if placed for auction. Or maybe the players in question simply don't know how to win any other way.

JFeenstra
04-02-2008, 02:10 AM
the quest is also a level (or three, on elite) above the current player max, using a few resources is not unreasonable

i'd classify a 'bad' shroud run for my cleric as using 20-30 scrolls and maybe a mana pot or two, at 1515sp with dragonmarks at level cap that's still not even that bad

clerics that are blowing through scroll after scroll after scroll are either healing too much (ie. over healing...200pt heals for 100pts worth of damage) or they're in relatively bad parties...main reason i don't pug shroud with my cleric anymore, too many tanks that don't jump out in part 4 when the blades come in...go another round and save the clerics 400sp in heals

Shade
04-02-2008, 09:54 AM
I hear more and more that people are using 50 or so heal scrolls. I think to myself, that’s a problem.
I don't see the problem.

50 heal scrolls = 7.5kpp.
Average sale price of loot from a normal shroud run = 10kpp with low haggle, over 12kpp with high haggle

Overall you still make allot of money there. The thing has 12 chests!

And 50 scrolls seems like allot ot me. I think in some of the better groups for normal completion runs clerics might only use 0-25 scrolls. 50 scrolls used would be a bad pug run or maybe one where your the only cleric.

heh often in part4/5 on my sorcerer ill just use scroll healing to help, and i'll use them as fast as possible, even doing that I almost never use 50+ scrolls. And for him, even using 75+ scrolls isn't a problem, because as a sorcerer I have excellent haggle skill and always make 12kpp+ per run.

And in general most runs are 1-4 - which shoud always require 0 scroll use so you should end up with allot of xtra plat when you go to do the 1-5 later, part5 is where some scrolls can get used up.

Sambvca
04-02-2008, 10:06 AM
Average sale price of loot from a normal shroud run = 10kpp with low haggle, over 12kpp with high haggle

Don't confuse item worth with sale value.

Strakeln
04-02-2008, 10:11 AM
Keep in mind that some players (myself especially) are wasteful with resources. I'll use a heal scroll to fill up 50 points of damage, or to top off a fighter who I see drinking potions... heck, it takes me 10 heal scrolls just to get from the Meridia Inn to the Shroud!

It isn't usually necessary, but it is fun.

Mad_Bombardier
04-02-2008, 10:30 AM
Don't confuse item worth with sale value.He's not. Item base value is 4 to 5 times higher than that.

Forceonature
04-02-2008, 10:31 AM
Yeah, been here since beta... but took time off. Haven't seen the Shroud, but let me ask you this?

Are 50+ scrolls being used on "normal" level of Shroud? Cause if its hard or elite, then I'd say the adventure is ok. Isn't that really the point of difficulty levels, to be harder than normal? If they are being used on "normal" then as the OP said, either healers stink, melees have terrible AC or no one is trying to stay on defense at all.

I personally think its the last one, when was the last time someone took toughness feat? Other than those who deliberately wanted to utilize the toughness line of enhancements.

When was Shield Mastery taken? Luck of Heroes? Does anyone know what the [shift] button does? ;)
I'd really like to see a list of feats taken on current character in the servers, I'm guessing Power Attack and Empower Spell are the top two.

All I tend to see are all offense characters and very little defense. I could be wrong, I don't get out much, but hey "sword and board" seems to be very unpopular these days. I blame the THF great cleave and the sweet a$$ TWF mechanics! :)

Oh and P.S. why is it all about scrolls now, what happened to wands?

<raises hand>I know what the shift button does.:cool: I've got a mid level initmidate tank and a lvl 15 barb. Both are a blast to play, but come with their own different styles.

IMO, if you're a barb, you should have trip hot-keyed. I rarely see other barbs trip anything. Very useful for mitigating damage, especially in a one-on-one fight. More often than not, that 40+ STR is going to land something on its back and prevent at least one attack on you.

With my Intimidate/high AC build, i'll tell the casters to cast their firewall on me, and rogues to stay to my flanks. I grab the aggro, they get the easy kills.

I saw an interesting tactic the other day. I had this bard (or other caster) throw freedom of movement on everybody at the start of the quest (Tomb of the Necromancer). We weren't facing many casters, so I was curious on why, but I didn't say anything. Then, when I saw him laying down grease everywhere and 50% of the mobs falling down, it was easy to see what was going on. We breezed through that quest.

Strategy > brute force

Locathus
04-02-2008, 07:37 PM
While I agree with the OP that the Shroud is probably the most expensive quest created so far, I don't see it as a big issue for the long haul. I'm basing this off of various PUG and Guild runs.

First, as has been posted above, as new strategies become common the cost will drop. Our guild started off needing quite a few Heal scrolls and an occasional mana pot to get through the whole thing, but as we've come to know it more and more it gets easier. Our Hard runs today use fewer resources than our Normal runs did a couple of weeks ago. I definitely use more resources in my PUG runs than the Guild ones, but even those costs have dropped over time.

Second, the cost generally isn't put on the clerics alone. On guild runs, we established a "buy-in" for each member (including the clerics) which was used to purchase Heal scrolls for the clerics. When we have open spots, any non-guildies are asked to voluntarily donate the same amount - I don't remember any of them ever refusing. And I've run my cleric in quite a few PUG runs - in most cases people are willing to donate, and in many cases they actually try to donate a little TOO much and I ask them to tone it down a little.

Third, parts 1-3 are not very healing intensive. There have been very few cases where I've seen a group need to use any extra heal scrolls/mana pots/etc. in the first three parts. All of these have involved groups that were led poorly or where certain players disregarded the instructions of the party leader. So, if you aren't willing to put forth the extra effort to do parts 4 and 5, you can still enjoy most of the Shroud, and get a nice 2-tier upgrade of any item you want.

Fourth, completing the raid should be at least a little bit challenging. This is supposed to be the hardest quest in the game, after all. The Devs have tried making things challenging by introducing weaker raid bosses with odd tricks (Titan, Abbot, and Stormreaver), but honestly those fights don't have the epic feel that beating down the Pit Fiend has. Even though I've seen him drop many times, it still brings a smile to my face.

That's my two cents. I think the Devs hit this raid pretty well. While I would make some changes to some individual details (and fix some of the bugs), this is probably the best actual raid fight yet.

ShadesofGreen
04-02-2008, 07:51 PM
I saw an interesting tactic the other day. I had this bard (or other caster) throw freedom of movement on everybody at the start of the quest (Tomb of the Necromancer). We weren't facing many casters, so I was curious on why, but I didn't say anything. Then, when I saw him laying down grease everywhere and 50% of the mobs falling down, it was easy to see what was going on. We breezed through that quest.

Nice, I like that idea. I've have to give that a try. ;)

Talcyndl
04-03-2008, 12:00 AM
QFT. Give it a month or so, and it will be another routine run with little resources used.


Honestly, it's already getting there.

I've had a few really expensive runs on my cleric and a few where I hardly used any scrolls.

esoitl
04-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Oh and P.S. why is it all about scrolls now, what happened to wands?

have you ever tried to wand whip a 300+ HP WF/Dwarf Barb......
for the 12k or whatever they cost it is much more effective to buy the 6 heal scrolls that will cost the same


i still carry a few for topping up casters but any melee will have too many HP that will make wnds entirely too slow to use in any type of combat situation

FluffyCalico
04-03-2008, 12:21 AM
No. It's not the characters, it's the players.

Either the players are not able to win without taking too much damage, or they're not even trying. Many players have enough plat that they don't care about 50 scrolls, so it's possible that even if they're capable of winning without resource expenditure, they choose not to.

It can be a rational choice: spend scrolls to get faster access to Shroud Ingredients, which are not buyable with plat and which fetch enormous prices if placed for auction. Or maybe the players in question simply don't know how to win any other way.

Correction many players don't care about 100 scrolls as they are not the cleric buying them nor are they funding it.
Most players have decided why should we use resorces and try hard when the only person that must is the cleric.

Easy solution to the LF clerics for shroud that always up. Entry into raid is 10 heal scrolls. If everyone had to bring that many so what if the group used 100 scrolls thats just 10 each. The issue is if you use 100 as a group and 2 players bought them all and the other 8 sat there barely trying and not using their own resources because they knew the clerics would.

esoitl
04-03-2008, 12:26 AM
Correction many players don't care about 50 scolls as they are not the cleric buying them nor are they funding it.
Most players have decided why should we use resorces and try hard when the only person that must is the cleric.

you get the odd player that realizes when too many resources are being spent that will chip in but indeed, most players won't give a second thought to how they are playing and the drain they are at times as the cleric is still keeping them up and running

maybe if the cleric would let more of these players die then they might adjust their playstyle to make themselves less of a burden

mgoldb2
04-03-2008, 01:47 AM
This may sound strange but on my cleric if I see in the lfm X pp or X scroll for any cleric that join my first reaction is to avoid that group because if they assuming high cost then I question the group setup.

I must rather be in the group that doesn’t donate anything because they know they setup the group correct and we going to breeze though it and am only going to use few scrolls if any.

Then there always the risk of the bad group that don’t donate anything but truthfully I not going to go poor because I spent 50 scrolls on a quest or even 100. A lot of the time the loot in the chest pays for that by it self. Actually I have been running both my cleric and barbarian a lot in shroud lately (both been ransack on part 4 chest a few times) and my cleric have made more money then my barbarian by a big margin. This is mainly due to fact that I donate money to clerics on my barb which is the largest repeating expense in game for me (not counting one time cost of buying some weapon or item I need once in awile).

BlueLightBandit
04-03-2008, 02:29 AM
My rule is to keep scrolls handy, but try not to use them. Heck, more often than not I'm getting tells from the pally or ranger "Hey, do you have any extra wands?"

It's always better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Cuth
04-03-2008, 12:50 PM
I have to agree w/ ShadesofGreen ... a big part of the problem is that 99% of builds seem to be geared entirely toward offense.

Whether this is a function of the content (AC toons are less effective in most quests), player mentality (people want to rack up high kill count scores), or something else I am not certain but it's far more likely for me to end up in a quest w/ 2 2H barbs, a TWF Ranger, 2 offensive casters, and cleric then to be w/ a couple of S/S Pally (or fighters), CC Casters, etc.

Damage mitigation / avoidance is a secondary thought to almost every build or group.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-03-2008, 01:02 PM
While I agree with everything you have said, I think your perception (and other's) of the situation is skewed.
Granted, I have yet to get to prt 5 of the shroud, and have also avoided playing a lot of high lvl content with my cleric for a long time.
However, IMO people do not need to use tremendous resources to complete a quest.
Good tactics will go a long way. CC will go a long way.

Those whose only tactic is swing, swing, swing, heal, heal, heal are the ones who can't complete a quest without huge resources IMO.

I refuse to believe that the only answer to a more powerful baddie is to throw a bigger barbarian and a more uber cleric at him.

I've heard there were a few all ranger shroud runs......I doubt they used a lot of resources (healing scrolls).....but I wasn't there, so maybe they did.

My favorite way to complete any dungeon is to try not to get hurt.

I know this may not be possible, but in my experiance so far, it is more possible than most people think......it just takes an adjustment to play style that most seem unwilling to try.

aldan
04-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Nevermind.......

EspyLacopa
04-03-2008, 03:09 PM
QFT. Give it a month or so, and it will be another routine run with little resources used.

The tactics used during questing has everything to do with this. Folks typically are too inflexible in their thinking to try new combinations of strategies until they are forced to do so. There has been talk at every Mod. about this, that or the other being underpowered, overpowered, ect, ect, ad nauseum. Don't sweat the small stuff & have fun. :)

Heh. I remember the Cries of Doom with the Wiz King in the Desert, as well as the 3 hour long VoN3 runs. . .

Cyr
04-03-2008, 07:47 PM
The last part of the shroud is not that bad...by the way for those who have never been there CC does nothing after the mini bosses, but the pit fiend himself mitigates damage if you know how to run the fight.

First thing first make sure everyone has a valid ranged option vs. him since you can essentially run around and avoid him the whole time and shoot him. Second, rangers do more dps then any other class per point of healing/resources (besides silver arrows :) so if you can grab them over barbarians do it. 11 man ranger runs are cake btw see Kargon for details (not that you need many). Third, if you want to tank it up make sure you have good weapons vs. the fiend and high hp...if you don't have both don't even bother. Fourth, lot's of tanks = mass heals not heal spell. Fifth, 2 arcanes is plenty. Sixth, bring a bard if you can speeds things up alot (still miss this detail in too many runs I see). Lastly, the most resource intensive runs always involve either large numbers of tanks (almost no ranged) or support classes (bard,clerics, arcanes) that just can not keep themselves alive for some reason. The last lesson is the big one, bad group make up or toons with both low hp/saves and players behind the keyboard who just do not pay attention to their own situation while nuking/healing are the biggest drains. Get both of those together and well then your stuck with a group that does not even complete part 4.

Oh yeah one last thing, 100 heal scrolls cost next to nothing when you can sell one large ingredient for 2 million gold or more on the AH and other classes (at least they should ;) bring their own consumable resources which cost plat also.

spyderwolf
04-04-2008, 01:42 AM
i agree with cyr on this ..did a shroud with my buddy thrann a day ago he ran out of mana on his cleric about 10 seconds before we killed the fiend in part 4..the other cleric still had 70% of his mana left .having one cleric mas heal the tanks til he runs out and hten having the 2nd cleric take over from there is the best way to go because there isnt any over healing involved. and i have a capped cleric btw :) i never use scrolls in vale quests.

FluffyCalico
04-04-2008, 01:57 AM
Heh. I remember the Cries of Doom with the Wiz King in the Desert, as well as the 3 hour long VoN3 runs. . .

When was VON3 3 hrs long? I remember farming it on Elite for the chests about 2 weeks after it came out.

EspyLacopa
04-04-2008, 07:33 AM
When was VON3 3 hrs long? I remember farming it on Elite for the chests about 2 weeks after it came out.
When it was done by a group of lv8 characters who had no idea what was in store for them ^^

Even having one person who knew the way greatly sped up the quest.

And now of course, with groups of people who have run it so much, it's easily done in 20-30 minutes.

Strakeln
04-04-2008, 08:11 AM
When it was done by a group of lv8 characters who had no idea what was in store for them ^^

Even having one person who knew the way greatly sped up the quest.

And now of course, with groups of people who have run it so much, the entire series is easily done in 20-30 minutes.Fixed that for ya :p

Nonan
04-04-2008, 10:22 AM
The number of heal scrolls you use also depends on how many tanks go in and hit the mob on part 4. If the group is balanced and has a couple of rangers, then if you have 3 clerics and 3 tanks on teh boss, each cleric can heal one tank and not really have to use scrolls. I find I use scrolls more when there are 2 clerics or one of them dies while doing part 4.

One thing i always reccomend when I am running the raid is that fighters heal themselves after teh boss goes up, it saves a lot of cleric mana. Also, clerics DV each other right away, rangers and bards can wand heal if needed. Rangers save their mana for Fire PRotections or even make sure teh fighters bring their own pots. As always, cleric donations are appreciated, especially if u do 4 and 5!!!

What it boils down to is that it is a team effort to beat parts 4 and 5.

Turial
04-04-2008, 10:29 AM
What it boils down to is that it is a team effort

Sooo true.

Oreg
04-04-2008, 10:36 AM
I like you have been playing since the game was playable and also have the perspective that only time will grant you.


Mod 6 then = OMG!!!! clerics in gianthold need to buy hundreds of heal scrolls to keep up with the damage these mobs are doing

Mod 6 now = LFM Crucible .. elite run .... cleric welcome but will take any........In Progress


Yes! Scrolls are just the beggining.

Yep, Always the case. A bit more extreme this time around but already many many many clerics are doing it sans heal scrolls (or if so just a few).

EspyLacopa
04-04-2008, 11:43 AM
Fixed that for ya :p
You referring to lv8 characters working their way up the levels, or lv16 characters rushing through to get ready for a Dragon Raid?

Strakeln
04-04-2008, 02:31 PM
You referring to lv8 characters working their way up the levels, or lv16 characters rushing through to get ready for a Dragon Raid?L16, of course... vons are still a fun challenge at level 8. I forgot what it was like to be scared of a beholder until I ran a lowbie through von 3 a few months ago :D

paintedman
04-04-2008, 02:31 PM
To me at least how things can get derailed so easily, perhaps I should be more clear(clearer? bah grammar!). The concern is that apart from tight nit groups that actually care about one another, that clerics that pug (yes, that is also playing DDO) are having thier abilities outstriped by one of the following, super tuff mobs ability to inflict lots of damage, players wearing tinfoil for armour, or healing abilites not scaling with the content. I also fear high damage/high hit point build cycle meshed with Devs having to create monsters that can tackle these builds that causes more specific builds until we reach a point that if you do not have 300 or more HP that your toon, regardless of class is gimped.

Perhaps I'm being dismal, but it just seems that way, and maybe that is exactly what it is, but please don't brush aside this beacause you have not dealt with this youself, yes some people make funny builds, but does that mean that they cannot have a good time with you and your "great" build? Or complete difficult quest with out pulling out thier hair. More so, if that is how some people feel now, just think when the next cycle comes through, will that be the point where things fall apart community wise, from those that can and those that want to.

-paint

Gunga
04-04-2008, 02:41 PM
Correction many players don't care about 100 scrolls as they are not the cleric buying them nor are they funding it.
Most players have decided why should we use resorces and try hard when the only person that must is the cleric.

Easy solution to the LF clerics for shroud that always up. Entry into raid is 10 heal scrolls. If everyone had to bring that many so what if the group used 100 scrolls thats just 10 each. The issue is if you use 100 as a group and 2 players bought them all and the other 8 sat there barely trying and not using their own resources because they knew the clerics would.

Nonsense. Everyone should bring what they need to the table. Clerics bring scrolls, fighters/casters bring pots. Easy.